Re: [U2] Rocks
I have been mildly trolling. I'll stop. On Jul 14, 2011 7:15 PM, "Rob Sobers" wrote: > In fairness, I don't think anyone is trolling. I think it's healthy to > question the technical merits of the platforms you use and compare them to > alternatives. > > A community that shouts "go away trolls! we like it here!" whenever someone > asks an uneasy question is probably one I don't belong in. > > I think we are asking fair, on-topic questions about the technology, its > future, and its usefulness compared to other systems that have entered the > market. No one is belittling anyone else for using U2 or being a UniBasic > developer. I've used the technology for many years. I'm just not going to > be content with a platform that stagnates. When I'm unhappy, I speak up. > :-) > > -Rob > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Jeff Schasny wrote: > >> You were given many reasons and dismissed them all with nothing more than a >> shrug. >> >> Apparently, now you believe you've made your point. Good for you. >> >> Amazing as it may sound, on a list full of people who are U2 developers >> you're going to find people who use U2 because we're experts in it, and to >> us it's as easy as pie to develop in this environment. We use it with >> various front end tools to make it pretty like any other database >> environment. We also use a variety of other open source and proprietary >> tools when the situation calls for it. >> >> And now I believe I'll stop feeding the troll and go have some more coffee. >> >> >> Holt, Jake wrote: >> >>> U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a completely foreign >>> concept to most people and I'd wager a large number of DBAs. There is >>> no conceivable way that installing U2, setting up a database, developing >>> an application and presenting it using a technology that's not a >>> dinosaur can be considering easy in comparison to the majority of other >>> databases out there. >>> If you're happy with the current MV market then that's fine, but my >>> original intention in asking the question was to find out if there was >>> really any conceivable reason that NEW users would adopt U2 over another >>> option. If people are happy to just watch it bleed and die that's fine, >>> but if you want the market to grow you're going to have to address some >>> of the issues already brought up. Issues that many other databases >>> addressed a decade ago. >>> >>> Like I said initially, I like U2, I just have no conceivable reason to >>> use it outside our ERP system when I have a number of other options >>> available that are, frankly, better. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org< u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org> >>> [mailto:u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org< u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org>] >>> On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman >>> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:30 AM >>> To: U2 Users List >>> Subject: [U2] Rocks >>> >>> Rob: >>> >>> This is the U2 list. The developers on this list... like, live, and >>> breathe U2. U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades, >>> companies have invested in mega-mountains of code. I find it galling >>> when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their >>> colossal stake. >>> >>> Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based? Maybe... maybe not. Although U2 is >>> the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good >>> reasons to opt for a rival technologies. For add-on projects, U2 has an >>> easy learning curve. >>> >>> I hope that this explanation sheds some new light. >>> >>> --Bill >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM >>> Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? >>> >>> I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules >>> engine. ... >>> >>> -Rob >>> __**_ >>> U2-Users mailing list >>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org >>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users< http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users> >>> __**_ >>> U2-Users mailing list >>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org >>> http:
Re: [U2] Rocks
In fairness, I don't think anyone is trolling. I think it's healthy to question the technical merits of the platforms you use and compare them to alternatives. A community that shouts "go away trolls! we like it here!" whenever someone asks an uneasy question is probably one I don't belong in. I think we are asking fair, on-topic questions about the technology, its future, and its usefulness compared to other systems that have entered the market. No one is belittling anyone else for using U2 or being a UniBasic developer. I've used the technology for many years. I'm just not going to be content with a platform that stagnates. When I'm unhappy, I speak up. :-) -Rob On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Jeff Schasny wrote: > You were given many reasons and dismissed them all with nothing more than a > shrug. > > Apparently, now you believe you've made your point. Good for you. > > Amazing as it may sound, on a list full of people who are U2 developers > you're going to find people who use U2 because we're experts in it, and to > us it's as easy as pie to develop in this environment. We use it with > various front end tools to make it pretty like any other database > environment. We also use a variety of other open source and proprietary > tools when the situation calls for it. > > And now I believe I'll stop feeding the troll and go have some more coffee. > > > Holt, Jake wrote: > >> U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a completely foreign >> concept to most people and I'd wager a large number of DBAs. There is >> no conceivable way that installing U2, setting up a database, developing >> an application and presenting it using a technology that's not a >> dinosaur can be considering easy in comparison to the majority of other >> databases out there. >> If you're happy with the current MV market then that's fine, but my >> original intention in asking the question was to find out if there was >> really any conceivable reason that NEW users would adopt U2 over another >> option. If people are happy to just watch it bleed and die that's fine, >> but if you want the market to grow you're going to have to address some >> of the issues already brought up. Issues that many other databases >> addressed a decade ago. >> >> Like I said initially, I like U2, I just have no conceivable reason to >> use it outside our ERP system when I have a number of other options >> available that are, frankly, better. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: >> u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org >> [mailto:u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org] >> On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman >> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:30 AM >> To: U2 Users List >> Subject: [U2] Rocks >> >> Rob: >> >> This is the U2 list. The developers on this list... like, live, and >> breathe U2. U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades, >> companies have invested in mega-mountains of code. I find it galling >> when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their >> colossal stake. >> >> Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based? Maybe... maybe not. Although U2 is >> the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good >> reasons to opt for a rival technologies. For add-on projects, U2 has an >> easy learning curve. >> >> I hope that this explanation sheds some new light. >> >> --Bill >> >> -Original Message- >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? >> >> I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules >> engine. ... >> >> -Rob >> __**_ >> U2-Users mailing list >> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org >> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users> >> __**_ >> U2-Users mailing list >> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org >> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users> >> >> >> > > -- > --**--** > > Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA > jschasny at gmail dot com > --**--** > > > __**_ > U2-Users mailing list > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org > http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users> > ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Rocks
Tony, I appreciate your comments and opinion... I subscribe to the list for the technical exchange of ideas, and it is my understanding that this is why this particular list exists. u2-users: Technical Discussions related to the U2 product family. Use this list to ask the community for technical help and share useful or technical information of interest to the community. u2-community: General non-technical discussions, including off-topic diversions, should be directed to this list. Asking "Why use U2?" is the effective equivalent of "Paper or Plastic?". At face value, is not a technical discussion; it is an arguable topic that can invoke more emotion than meaningful, worthy, and educational content. You can learn things, not necessarily technical, that make the conversation beneficial; and U2UG has provided a place for such discussions. I'm not saying that there hasn't been some value in the discussion - just that it is largely not technical, and therefore misplaced. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Rocks
> From: Bob Wyatt > Let this discussion cease and desist Bob, I've been wondering if and when moderation would kick in, but I think overall, the flurry of discussion has been very positive and mostly on-topic. Perhaps the moderation should bend away from "cease and disist" toward "please focus on facts rather than inflammatory expressions of opinion". Personally, I'm not subscribed to Community as I don't see the value. I read this forum for helpful content (and to try to provide the same) intermixed with personal reasoning about why people do or don't do various things. YMMV T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Rocks
Jake Holt wrote: > U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a > completely foreign concept to most people and I'd > wager a large number of DBAs. There is no conceivable > way that installing U2, setting up a database, > developing an application and presenting it using a > technology that's not a dinosaur can be considering > easy in comparison to the majority of other databases > out there. We need to separate DBMS administration from programming against a database. The average developer out there doesn't need to install or administer the MySQL environments they use. They use CPanel to create the database/account with a couple browser clicks, they use CREATE TABLE statements for creating files, then they use functions like db.setFile(table,field,data) to save data. They don't deal with backups, spooler, user processes, save-lists, or any of the other DBMS subsystems that we employ as MV professionals. The U2 platform can also be abstracted in this way for use by casual developers. "We" collectively simply don't think like that. The licensing model doesn't lead in that direction. This isn't a technical or platform limitation, it's how we employ what we have - it's just a mindset. Now as to the U2 learning curve for someone oriented toward DBMS administration. I'll agree that Universe and Unidata are more unapproachable than any DBMS I know, MV or otherwise (though jBase is a bear too). For this reason I consider myself a complete noob when it comes to U2 administration, and I have simply accepted that this is one of those things that I will never master in my lifetime. I have helped a lot of U2 sites to get more out of their platform and I plan to deploy U2 for some projects, but I'm afraid my over 25 years of Pick experience is useless real professional management of these systems, and I will still need to hire competent people when my projects go production. To keep this anecdote in context - I function perfectly well as a developer who is (semi) oblivious to the DBMS, and this is the way most developers in the web world use their databases of choice as well. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Rocks
Jeff: "...and to us it's as easy as pie to develop in this environment." When Pick first came out the people who built the hundreds of business applications were business people, not techno-geeks, who somehow think C# is the be-all and end-all of computer languages. This should say it all. :-o Bill - Original Message - *From:* jscha...@gmail.com *To:* U2 Users List *Date:* 7/14/2011 8:17 AM *Subject:* Re: [U2] Rocks You were given many reasons and dismissed them all with nothing more than a shrug. Apparently, now you believe you've made your point. Good for you. Amazing as it may sound, on a list full of people who are U2 developers you're going to find people who use U2 because we're experts in it, and to us it's as easy as pie to develop in this environment. We use it with various front end tools to make it pretty like any other database environment. We also use a variety of other open source and proprietary tools when the situation calls for it. And now I believe I'll stop feeding the troll and go have some more coffee. Holt, Jake wrote: U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a completely foreign concept to most people and I'd wager a large number of DBAs. There is no conceivable way that installing U2, setting up a database, developing an application and presenting it using a technology that's not a dinosaur can be considering easy in comparison to the majority of other databases out there. If you're happy with the current MV market then that's fine, but my original intention in asking the question was to find out if there was really any conceivable reason that NEW users would adopt U2 over another option. If people are happy to just watch it bleed and die that's fine, but if you want the market to grow you're going to have to address some of the issues already brought up. Issues that many other databases addressed a decade ago. Like I said initially, I like U2, I just have no conceivable reason to use it outside our ERP system when I have a number of other options available that are, frankly, better. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:30 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Rocks Rob: This is the U2 list. The developers on this list... like, live, and breathe U2. U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades, companies have invested in mega-mountains of code. I find it galling when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their colossal stake. Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based? Maybe... maybe not. Although U2 is the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good reasons to opt for a rival technologies. For add-on projects, U2 has an easy learning curve. I hope that this explanation sheds some new light. --Bill -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules engine. ... -Rob ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Rocks
There once was a list called Community Posters avoid it with impunity It makes a spectacular day To see the moderator say This thread is no good In this neighborhood You have the right to be silent Don't accelerate my retirement Please move this to the Community List Let this discussion cease and desist -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Holt, Jake Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:05 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Rocks U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a completely foreign concept to most people and I'd wager a large number of DBAs. There is no conceivable way that installing U2, setting up a database, developing an application and presenting it using a technology that's not a dinosaur can be considering easy in comparison to the majority of other databases out there. If you're happy with the current MV market then that's fine, but my original intention in asking the question was to find out if there was really any conceivable reason that NEW users would adopt U2 over another option. If people are happy to just watch it bleed and die that's fine, but if you want the market to grow you're going to have to address some of the issues already brought up. Issues that many other databases addressed a decade ago. Like I said initially, I like U2, I just have no conceivable reason to use it outside our ERP system when I have a number of other options available that are, frankly, better. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:30 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Rocks Rob: This is the U2 list. The developers on this list... like, live, and breathe U2. U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades, companies have invested in mega-mountains of code. I find it galling when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their colossal stake. Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based? Maybe... maybe not. Although U2 is the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good reasons to opt for a rival technologies. For add-on projects, U2 has an easy learning curve. I hope that this explanation sheds some new light. --Bill -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules engine. ... -Rob ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Rocks
You were given many reasons and dismissed them all with nothing more than a shrug. Apparently, now you believe you've made your point. Good for you. Amazing as it may sound, on a list full of people who are U2 developers you're going to find people who use U2 because we're experts in it, and to us it's as easy as pie to develop in this environment. We use it with various front end tools to make it pretty like any other database environment. We also use a variety of other open source and proprietary tools when the situation calls for it. And now I believe I'll stop feeding the troll and go have some more coffee. Holt, Jake wrote: U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a completely foreign concept to most people and I'd wager a large number of DBAs. There is no conceivable way that installing U2, setting up a database, developing an application and presenting it using a technology that's not a dinosaur can be considering easy in comparison to the majority of other databases out there. If you're happy with the current MV market then that's fine, but my original intention in asking the question was to find out if there was really any conceivable reason that NEW users would adopt U2 over another option. If people are happy to just watch it bleed and die that's fine, but if you want the market to grow you're going to have to address some of the issues already brought up. Issues that many other databases addressed a decade ago. Like I said initially, I like U2, I just have no conceivable reason to use it outside our ERP system when I have a number of other options available that are, frankly, better. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:30 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Rocks Rob: This is the U2 list. The developers on this list... like, live, and breathe U2. U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades, companies have invested in mega-mountains of code. I find it galling when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their colossal stake. Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based? Maybe... maybe not. Although U2 is the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good reasons to opt for a rival technologies. For add-on projects, U2 has an easy learning curve. I hope that this explanation sheds some new light. --Bill -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules engine. ... -Rob ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA jschasny at gmail dot com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Rocks
U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a completely foreign concept to most people and I'd wager a large number of DBAs. There is no conceivable way that installing U2, setting up a database, developing an application and presenting it using a technology that's not a dinosaur can be considering easy in comparison to the majority of other databases out there. If you're happy with the current MV market then that's fine, but my original intention in asking the question was to find out if there was really any conceivable reason that NEW users would adopt U2 over another option. If people are happy to just watch it bleed and die that's fine, but if you want the market to grow you're going to have to address some of the issues already brought up. Issues that many other databases addressed a decade ago. Like I said initially, I like U2, I just have no conceivable reason to use it outside our ERP system when I have a number of other options available that are, frankly, better. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:30 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Rocks Rob: This is the U2 list. The developers on this list... like, live, and breathe U2. U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades, companies have invested in mega-mountains of code. I find it galling when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their colossal stake. Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based? Maybe... maybe not. Although U2 is the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good reasons to opt for a rival technologies. For add-on projects, U2 has an easy learning curve. I hope that this explanation sheds some new light. --Bill -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules engine. ... -Rob ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] Rocks
Rob: This is the U2 list. The developers on this list... like, live, and breathe U2. U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades, companies have invested in mega-mountains of code. I find it galling when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their colossal stake. Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based? Maybe... maybe not. Although U2 is the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good reasons to opt for a rival technologies. For add-on projects, U2 has an easy learning curve. I hope that this explanation sheds some new light. --Bill -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules engine. ... -Rob ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
