Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
Hi, Alex: and even making sure we have 1 person who is both DebianGIS and Ubuntugis for coordination. without getting too presumptuous, Frankie L. is an obvious person to approach, but failing that that a crossover person could be me, but tbh I'm not really sure how a PSC would actually benefit UbuntuGIS or OSGeo. A PSC is good for making strategic and political decisions, but 95% of our issues are technical ones where the wider pool of developers participate in may the soundest idea win. The main strategic decision we have right now is the repo re-naming, which I think most of us are in fair agreement about anyway. I'm all for breathing life into the project in whatever way we can, but at the same time am concerned about adding new layers of bureaucracy which might morph into a time+energy sink/inefficiency, and avoiding the situation of too many chiefs not enough braves. Another thing to be concerned with in small groups like ours is to avoid the appearance of a cabal, where new contributors don't feel part of the technical decision making group, and we desperately need those new contributors to be part of the technical decision making group.. On the other hand I fully accept Alan's concerns about his bus factor, in DebianGIS for a long time we've relied on Frankie in the same way. just some thoughts, Hamish ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2013 11:58 AM, Hamish wrote: The main strategic decision we have right now is the repo re-naming, which I think most of us are in fair agreement about anyway. Thanks for Your reply. By my oppinion there are much more responsibilities of PSC, for example decisions about taget package versions for each repository (for example is QGIS 2.0 ready to push to some of production repos), decisions about versions of dependent libraries (GDAL, PROJ, GEOS) upon target PPA sotware stack will be build on or about acceptance of new packages and packagers and more. - -- Ivan Mincik -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSg2f4AAoJEPfdLsR5UpoesUEIAK1YKetNc5QueAid0TYtgXJp ZoLZ4zFP/rug1ysM7JOKWe94ZlmgxceCv+jRxJoiW8KhTgZ83tGM5OJjhjDextfi zbIIiHT1t8hqE8NIxpl7bQ/GYEJ2wViATzTmmv8CPSrVlF9daf5sU7HV4k/COcRJ JPjCts2MCOa7hmou3YIM4drNJYvCjUmEhygLl49qo7Y0w6NaKDKU83kiyXLZXqnO uZApzmOuxvrNO0vk2km8xNjBGbDkLwH8qHtrVGR6v3JecQ6aTsLqljQh49LxWlBL pDQgGdiWnjRjC981VJcOXR7eSDjh9rdaVcW/tnjvKrlLVAP9i1lk+EM36EVa0UA= =C8AV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
Rather than taking decision, I think the PSC should make sure that decisions are made. Whatever we call them, I think the ideal PSC could learn a lot from the osgeo live project. I think Cameron has done/is doing an excellent job at managing that project, which in fact is quite similar to ubuntugis but (arguably) bigger. Just to give an example, he sends out private mails to package maintainers before deadlines, which were community set earlier.This is useful for people who are not actively tracking the mailing list. I think we could do with similar deadlines as well. Eg 2 weeks before a new ubuntu release packages should go into this or that archive. Johan On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Ivan Mincik ivan.min...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/13/2013 11:58 AM, Hamish wrote: The main strategic decision we have right now is the repo re-naming, which I think most of us are in fair agreement about anyway. Thanks for Your reply. By my oppinion there are much more responsibilities of PSC, for example decisions about taget package versions for each repository (for example is QGIS 2.0 ready to push to some of production repos), decisions about versions of dependent libraries (GDAL, PROJ, GEOS) upon target PPA sotware stack will be build on or about acceptance of new packages and packagers and more. - -- Ivan Mincik -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSg2f4AAoJEPfdLsR5UpoesUEIAK1YKetNc5QueAid0TYtgXJp ZoLZ4zFP/rug1ysM7JOKWe94ZlmgxceCv+jRxJoiW8KhTgZ83tGM5OJjhjDextfi zbIIiHT1t8hqE8NIxpl7bQ/GYEJ2wViATzTmmv8CPSrVlF9daf5sU7HV4k/COcRJ JPjCts2MCOa7hmou3YIM4drNJYvCjUmEhygLl49qo7Y0w6NaKDKU83kiyXLZXqnO uZApzmOuxvrNO0vk2km8xNjBGbDkLwH8qHtrVGR6v3JecQ6aTsLqljQh49LxWlBL pDQgGdiWnjRjC981VJcOXR7eSDjh9rdaVcW/tnjvKrlLVAP9i1lk+EM36EVa0UA= =C8AV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
On 11/13/2013 02:58 AM, Hamish wrote: Hi, Alex: and even making sure we have 1 person who is both DebianGIS and Ubuntugis for coordination. without getting too presumptuous, Frankie L. is an obvious person to approach, but failing that that a crossover person could be me, but tbh I'm not really sure how a PSC would actually benefit UbuntuGIS or OSGeo. A PSC is good for making strategic and political decisions, but 95% of our issues are technical ones where the wider pool of developers participate in may the soundest idea win. The main strategic decision we have right now is the repo re-naming, which I think most of us are in fair agreement about anyway. I'm all for breathing life into the project in whatever way we can, but at the same time am concerned about adding new layers of bureaucracy which might morph into a time+energy sink/inefficiency, and avoiding the situation of too many chiefs not enough braves. Another thing to be concerned with in small groups like ours is to avoid the appearance of a cabal, where new contributors don't feel part of the technical decision making group, and we desperately need those new contributors to be part of the technical decision making group.. On the other hand I fully accept Alan's concerns about his bus factor, in DebianGIS for a long time we've relied on Frankie in the same way. just some thoughts, Hamish Agreed the PSC isn't about trying to exclude people from the discussions. In fact I would suggest that even though a PSC is being created there are no PSC only discussions and that just because a PSC exists does not mean it has to have the only votes that count. We can easily say the rule is we take the community decision that is 95-100% in agreement (essentially consensus of participants). There are only a few key things the PSC handles: Adding/Approving Committers/Uploaders Approving the community recommendations for repo naming/roadmap Admin rights to the trac, launchpad and mailing list Being the official contact people Facilitating community discussions Reminding people of their commitments (agreed maintainers), and soliciting new maintainers when we need them (see item 1). I'll note OSGeo Live has an informal PSC committee just by the nature of who participates in the decisions: Hamish, Angelos, Cameron, Brian and me And we already operate in a similar manner where technical issues are openly discussed until we reach a conclusion everyone agrees to (or doesn't outright object to). I'm not too concerned about too many Chiefs in this particular project. We mostly just want to improve the efficiency since right now packaging uploading is completely on the fly which leads to some duplication of effort or standing around and waiting when know one knows who's planning to upload what or when. I'd probably be the only Chief since I still haven't managed to successfully upload what should be simple updates, everyone else here seems to have a handle on how to get packages in. Thanks, Alex ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
I agree with Hamish that, most importantly, what UbuntuGIS needs is developers. People that are able to package. Ideally people that are interested to also help DebianGIS. DebianGIS also need packagers. So having a PSC without developers/packagers doesn't make sense to me. I'm still very supportive to have users/people to help with all other PSC tasks though. On 13-11-13 02:22 PM, Alex Mandel wrote: On 11/13/2013 02:58 AM, Hamish wrote: Hi, Alex: and even making sure we have 1 person who is both DebianGIS and Ubuntugis for coordination. without getting too presumptuous, Frankie L. is an obvious person to approach, but failing that that a crossover person could be me, but tbh I'm not really sure how a PSC would actually benefit UbuntuGIS or OSGeo. A PSC is good for making strategic and political decisions, but 95% of our issues are technical ones where the wider pool of developers participate in may the soundest idea win. The main strategic decision we have right now is the repo re-naming, which I think most of us are in fair agreement about anyway. I'm all for breathing life into the project in whatever way we can, but at the same time am concerned about adding new layers of bureaucracy which might morph into a time+energy sink/inefficiency, and avoiding the situation of too many chiefs not enough braves. Another thing to be concerned with in small groups like ours is to avoid the appearance of a cabal, where new contributors don't feel part of the technical decision making group, and we desperately need those new contributors to be part of the technical decision making group.. On the other hand I fully accept Alan's concerns about his bus factor, in DebianGIS for a long time we've relied on Frankie in the same way. just some thoughts, Hamish Agreed the PSC isn't about trying to exclude people from the discussions. In fact I would suggest that even though a PSC is being created there are no PSC only discussions and that just because a PSC exists does not mean it has to have the only votes that count. We can easily say the rule is we take the community decision that is 95-100% in agreement (essentially consensus of participants). There are only a few key things the PSC handles: Adding/Approving Committers/Uploaders Approving the community recommendations for repo naming/roadmap Admin rights to the trac, launchpad and mailing list Being the official contact people Facilitating community discussions Reminding people of their commitments (agreed maintainers), and soliciting new maintainers when we need them (see item 1). I'll note OSGeo Live has an informal PSC committee just by the nature of who participates in the decisions: Hamish, Angelos, Cameron, Brian and me And we already operate in a similar manner where technical issues are openly discussed until we reach a conclusion everyone agrees to (or doesn't outright object to). I'm not too concerned about too many Chiefs in this particular project. We mostly just want to improve the efficiency since right now packaging uploading is completely on the fly which leads to some duplication of effort or standing around and waiting when know one knows who's planning to upload what or when. I'd probably be the only Chief since I still haven't managed to successfully upload what should be simple updates, everyone else here seems to have a handle on how to get packages in. Thanks, Alex ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. I agree this is confusing and maybe the roadmap helps clear it up. I You think about it, my proposal to PPA structure is following: * ubuntugis-development - development versions of packages. Package version changes until they move to 'ubuntugis-staging' * ubuntugis-staging - staging versions which will be prepared to move at the time of each new ubuntu distribution release to 'ubuntugis-stable' * ubuntugis-stable - packages for all ubuntu distributions (LTS an non LTS) which will never change versions for a particular ubuntu distribution once released (only bugfixes available) - packages for each new distribution will be uploaded at the time of ubuntu distribution release Packages will be supported for each ubuntu distribution life time. * ubuntugis-backports - backported packages for LTS distributions. Can be upgraded as time goes on for all distributions Maintaining packages in 'ubuntugis-stable' for LTS distributions is long-term, responsible and boring task. This task I see as candidate for dedicated maintainer which could be financially supported by companies or organizations. I propose this structure change with release of 14.04 LTS. Ivan Mincik ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
I think we should create the PSC before trying to elaborate on any development roadmap. Then, maybe check for OSGeo incubation? Does anyone have experience with that? What's the best way to proceed and how we determine PSC members? Best Regards, Alan On 13-11-09 04:19 PM, Ivan Mincik wrote: 4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. I agree this is confusing and maybe the roadmap helps clear it up. I You think about it, my proposal to PPA structure is following: * ubuntugis-development - development versions of packages. Package version changes until they move to 'ubuntugis-staging' * ubuntugis-staging - staging versions which will be prepared to move at the time of each new ubuntu distribution release to 'ubuntugis-stable' * ubuntugis-stable - packages for all ubuntu distributions (LTS an non LTS) which will never change versions for a particular ubuntu distribution once released (only bugfixes available) - packages for each new distribution will be uploaded at the time of ubuntu distribution release Packages will be supported for each ubuntu distribution life time. * ubuntugis-backports - backported packages for LTS distributions. Can be upgraded as time goes on for all distributions Maintaining packages in 'ubuntugis-stable' for LTS distributions is long-term, responsible and boring task. This task I see as candidate for dedicated maintainer which could be financially supported by companies or organizations. I propose this structure change with release of 14.04 LTS. Ivan Mincik ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
for syncing some packages from experimental to universe. I'm especially thinking about gdal, because we now have a version of gdal in ubuntugis which is incompatible with the one in ubuntu universe. This means effectively means that ubuntugis is currently incompatible with all other gis packages around, including the ones included in ubuntu. This makes it eg impossible to install saga 2.1.0 from my ppa alongside qgis 2.0.1. That's a true statement. I think -- a good notice actually -- many OSGEO apps are developing very fast paced and a fixing bugs or adding features faster than the 6months release time of Ubuntu and the even longer time of Debian. This was may motivation at the time I needed it for daily work to set up daily PPA builds for GRASS (6.x). I have learned a lot on these recipe based builders and could contribute with some hins there. Check also: http://grasswiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Packaging ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. I would support this statement. Let's include daily build PPA activties into the UbuntuGIS plan. It could be: * sync effort with Debian * addition of new packages to universe * set-up of daily build PPAs for the most important/active/crucial packages (QGIS, GRASS, gdal, etc.) Kind regards. ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
Dear Alan, at first thank You for Your work (and also for work of others in this project). I am following UbuntuGIS for some time and I started to maintain my own PPA fork [1] some time ago, because I needed full control of packages. I am little bit involved in packaging. Here is my opinion: 1. This project definitely needs a strong leader with experience. 2. UbuntuGIS lacks clear roadmap. Maybe it is loosing skilled hands just because they are not aware about fact they are needed. Preparing roadmap must by one of the most important tasks of project leader and PSC. 3. Other very important task is clearly stated work flow in terms how to cooperate with Debian on regular basis. 4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. 5. As in other voluntary projects, there is a lack of manpower. But on the other hand, there are no rules which new contributors or uploaders must meet. Also I do not see any list of free tasks for new people. 6. The last one is the question if there is some possibility to get some support from OSGeo [2] ? Even if these goals are unrealistic, I think having them is must for further grow of this project. 1 - https://launchpad.net/~imincik/+archive/gis 2 - http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Binary_Distribution Thanks, Ivan Mincik On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Alan Boudreault aboudrea...@mapgears.comwrote: Hi, As a few of you may already know, I've recently decided to quit my job at Mapgears (http://t.co/aIgMAFlf2h). I'm still working at Mapgears as a part-time job but my availability for ubuntugis is limited. For to goodness of UbuntuGIS, I would like to create a PSC (Project Steering Committee) for the project. There are many competent people on this list and a lot of ubuntu users. The PSC responsabilities would include: - setting the overall development road map - improve collaboration with DebianGIS - trying to bring more developers! - etc. I also think UbuntuGIS needs a new senior package maintainer. Jérome did a great job during the summer and will continue to work on the project with Mapgears.. but he is still at school for the moment. I'd like to hear what you think... Best Regards, Alan -- Alan Boudreault http://www.mapgears.com/ ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Ivan Mincik ivan.min...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Alan, at first thank You for Your work (and also for work of others in this project). I am following UbuntuGIS for some time and I started to maintain my own PPA fork [1] some time ago, because I needed full control of packages. I am little bit involved in packaging. Here is my opinion: 1. This project definitely needs a strong leader with experience. 2. UbuntuGIS lacks clear roadmap. Maybe it is loosing skilled hands just because they are not aware about fact they are needed. Preparing roadmap must by one of the most important tasks of project leader and PSC. 3. Other very important task is clearly stated work flow in terms how to cooperate with Debian on regular basis. 4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. 5. As in other voluntary projects, there is a lack of manpower. But on the other hand, there are no rules which new contributors or uploaders must meet. Also I do not see any list of free tasks for new people. 6. The last one is the question if there is some possibility to get some support from OSGeo [2] ? Ivan, The most obvious way in which OSGeo could show support is by having UbuntuGIS apply for incubation as an OSGeo project. Having a PSC is one step on the way to being a full fledged OSGeo project. There is also some possibility of financial support from OSGeo for UbuntuGIS but at the very least there would need to be a clear plan before any financial commitment might be made (IMHO). Best regards, -- ---+-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmer...@pobox.com light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| Geospatial Software Developer ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
On 11/06/2013 12:41 PM, Ivan Mincik wrote: Dear Alan, at first thank You for Your work (and also for work of others in this project). I am following UbuntuGIS for some time and I started to maintain my own PPA fork [1] some time ago, because I needed full control of packages. I am little bit involved in packaging. Here is my opinion: 1. This project definitely needs a strong leader with experience. Or PSC, I don't think there needs to be one person in charge if there's a group that meets regularly to set the items below. 2. UbuntuGIS lacks clear roadmap. Maybe it is loosing skilled hands just because they are not aware about fact they are needed. Preparing roadmap must by one of the most important tasks of project leader and PSC. It doesn't seem like this would be hard to write up if a few of us met online for a few minutes. 3. Other very important task is clearly stated work flow in terms how to cooperate with Debian on regular basis. Agreed, seems recent meetings might have started down this path. 4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. I agree this is confusing and maybe the roadmap helps clear it up. 5. As in other voluntary projects, there is a lack of manpower. But on the other hand, there are no rules which new contributors or uploaders must meet. Also I do not see any list of free tasks for new people. I'm not aware of anyone being a designated maintainer, so its more a free for all once someone is granted access. Maybe we need to keep a list of who is responsible for what, of course when one project needs half the packages rebuilt that gets tricky to coordinate/wait. 6. The last one is the question if there is some possibility to get some support from OSGeo [2] ? What kind of support besides the mailing list, trac site, summer of code spot? Thanks, Alex Even if these goals are unrealistic, I think having them is must for further grow of this project. 1 - https://launchpad.net/~imincik/+archive/gis 2 - http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Binary_Distribution Thanks, Ivan Mincik On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Alan Boudreault aboudrea...@mapgears.comwrote: Hi, As a few of you may already know, I've recently decided to quit my job at Mapgears (http://t.co/aIgMAFlf2h). I'm still working at Mapgears as a part-time job but my availability for ubuntugis is limited. For to goodness of UbuntuGIS, I would like to create a PSC (Project Steering Committee) for the project. There are many competent people on this list and a lot of ubuntu users. The PSC responsabilities would include: - setting the overall development road map - improve collaboration with DebianGIS - trying to bring more developers! - etc. I also think UbuntuGIS needs a new senior package maintainer. Jérome did a great job during the summer and will continue to work on the project with Mapgears.. but he is still at school for the moment. I'd like to hear what you think... Best Regards, Alan -- Alan Boudreault http://www.mapgears.com/ ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Alex Mandel tech_...@wildintellect.comwrote: On 11/06/2013 12:41 PM, Ivan Mincik wrote: Dear Alan, at first thank You for Your work (and also for work of others in this project). I am following UbuntuGIS for some time and I started to maintain my own PPA fork [1] some time ago, because I needed full control of packages. I am little bit involved in packaging. Here is my opinion: 1. This project definitely needs a strong leader with experience. Or PSC, I don't think there needs to be one person in charge if there's a group that meets regularly to set the items below. Agreed. 2. UbuntuGIS lacks clear roadmap. Maybe it is loosing skilled hands just because they are not aware about fact they are needed. Preparing roadmap must by one of the most important tasks of project leader and PSC. It doesn't seem like this would be hard to write up if a few of us met online for a few minutes. 3. Other very important task is clearly stated work flow in terms how to cooperate with Debian on regular basis. Agreed, seems recent meetings might have started down this path. 4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. I agree this is confusing and maybe the roadmap helps clear it up. 5. As in other voluntary projects, there is a lack of manpower. But on the other hand, there are no rules which new contributors or uploaders must meet. Also I do not see any list of free tasks for new people. I'm not aware of anyone being a designated maintainer, so its more a free for all once someone is granted access. Maybe we need to keep a list of who is responsible for what, of course when one project needs half the packages rebuilt that gets tricky to coordinate/wait. 6. The last one is the question if there is some possibility to get some support from OSGeo [2] ? What kind of support besides the mailing list, trac site, summer of code spot? Some time ago I was pointed by somebody to that wiki page about 'OSGeo Binary Distributions'. I have realized that until now there is no official, up-to-date and well maintained GIS packages distribution for Linux which OSGeo can recommend as the number one. I really appreciate very much the work of Debian|Ubuntu GIS people, but it is still only very good voluntary. To be successful in enterprise deployment one needs predictable and stable maintenance of packages, something similar as 'OpenGeo Suite' is. Isn't that one of the goals of OSGeo ? What if UbuntuGIS would be that official packages distribution for OSGeo ? As Frank said, it is even possible to get some financial support once the project is accepted in to incubator. I think that there should be much more other benefits to exist under trusted organization. Thanks, Alex Even if these goals are unrealistic, I think having them is must for further grow of this project. 1 - https://launchpad.net/~imincik/+archive/gis 2 - http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Binary_Distribution Thanks, Ivan Mincik On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Alan Boudreault aboudrea...@mapgears.comwrote: Hi, As a few of you may already know, I've recently decided to quit my job at Mapgears (http://t.co/aIgMAFlf2h). I'm still working at Mapgears as a part-time job but my availability for ubuntugis is limited. For to goodness of UbuntuGIS, I would like to create a PSC (Project Steering Committee) for the project. There are many competent people on this list and a lot of ubuntu users. The PSC responsabilities would include: - setting the overall development road map - improve collaboration with DebianGIS - trying to bring more developers! - etc. I also think UbuntuGIS needs a new senior package maintainer. Jérome did a great job during the summer and will continue to work on the project with Mapgears.. but he is still at school for the moment. I'd like to hear what you think... Best Regards, Alan -- Alan Boudreault http://www.mapgears.com/ ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Alex Mandel tech_...@wildintellect.com wrote: On 11/06/2013 12:41 PM, Ivan Mincik wrote: Dear Alan, at first thank You for Your work (and also for work of others in this project). +1 1. This project definitely needs a strong leader with experience. Or PSC, I don't think there needs to be one person in charge if there's a group that meets regularly to set the items below. +1 2. UbuntuGIS lacks clear roadmap. Maybe it is loosing skilled hands just because they are not aware about fact they are needed. Preparing roadmap must by one of the most important tasks of project leader and PSC. It doesn't seem like this would be hard to write up if a few of us met online for a few minutes. +1 3. Other very important task is clearly stated work flow in terms how to cooperate with Debian on regular basis. Agreed, seems recent meetings might have started down this path. Though I agree we should cooperate, I think that the actual bottleneck is having debian developers uploading packages to debian unstable. There is quite a long list of Geo-related packages on mentors.debian.net or experimental waiting for sponsors or transition. This is also important for ubuntugis: since the next release (trusty) will be a LTS release, so much more users will be using it for a long period, and also ubuntugis will have to work nicely with them. So I'd suggest that instead of only waiting for some transitions to happen in debian we should also consider sync requests [1] or feature for syncing some packages from experimental to universe. I'm especially thinking about gdal, because we now have a version of gdal in ubuntugis which is incompatible with the one in ubuntu universe. This means effectively means that ubuntugis is currently incompatible with all other gis packages around, including the ones included in ubuntu. This makes it eg impossible to install saga 2.1.0 from my ppa alongside qgis 2.0.1. 4. Still at least by my opinion, the PPA naming stable, testing, unstable is very confusing for all newcomers which automatically expect the same behavior as in Debian. If this schema remains the same, or it will change to something other, it needs clearly documented workflow how packages migrates from testing, staging to production and how often and under which circumstances production packages are upgraded. I agree this is confusing and maybe the roadmap helps clear it up. Proposal: remove testing (which is mostly empty) and add experimental (which would be a more appropriate name for what we use it). I would not add a testing in debian sense as maintaining 2 repositories on the zillion ubuntu distributions is already enough work. 5. As in other voluntary projects, there is a lack of manpower. But on the other hand, there are no rules which new contributors or uploaders must meet. Also I do not see any list of free tasks for new people. I'm not aware of anyone being a designated maintainer, so its more a free for all once someone is granted access. Maybe we need to keep a list of who is responsible for what, of course when one project needs half the packages rebuilt that gets tricky to coordinate/wait. The unclarity is bad. If we would send out a message on this list: let's start building for saucy, let's try rebuilding every package from raring on the testing (current naming) branch this week, so we can put them on -unstable next week at least I would be more stimulated and try to build some packages. Ubuntu releases are predictable, so we can make a schedule an plan ahead. Johan [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Ivan Mincik ivan.min...@gmail.com wrote: Some time ago I was pointed by somebody to that wiki page about 'OSGeo Binary Distributions'. I have realized that until now there is no official, up-to-date and well maintained GIS packages distribution for Linux which OSGeo can recommend as the number one. I really appreciate very much the work of Debian|Ubuntu GIS people, but it is still only very good voluntary. To be successful in enterprise deployment one needs predictable and stable maintenance of packages, something similar as 'OpenGeo Suite' is. Isn't that one of the goals of OSGeo ? What if UbuntuGIS would be that official packages distribution for OSGeo ? As Frank said, it is even possible to get some financial support once the project is accepted in to incubator. I think that there should be much more other benefits to exist under trusted organization. Ivan, I'm not convinced I accept your premise, but even if one does accept the premise then folks have options including professional support contracts. I do think that bringing more energy to DebianGIS and UbuntuGIS with an eye towards stability and predictability would be valuable. But I don't accept that a volunteer effort is inadequate to the needs of enterprise deployment. Best regards, -- ---+-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmer...@pobox.com light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| Geospatial Software Developer ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Ivan, Perhaps organisations such as ours could provide some developer, test, documenter etc time to help such projects? This is an issue that I'm currently trying to work through with our people. It is just not the way that we have worked in the past. Bruce From: Ivan Mincik ivan.min...@gmail.commailto:ivan.min...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, 7 November 2013 10:38 AM To: UbuntuGIS Users ubuntu@lists.osgeo.orgmailto:ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Frank Warmerdam warmer...@pobox.commailto:warmer...@pobox.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Ivan Mincik ivan.min...@gmail.commailto:ivan.min...@gmail.com wrote: Some time ago I was pointed by somebody to that wiki page about 'OSGeo Binary Distributions'. I have realized that until now there is no official, up-to-date and well maintained GIS packages distribution for Linux which OSGeo can recommend as the number one. I really appreciate very much the work of Debian|Ubuntu GIS people, but it is still only very good voluntary. To be successful in enterprise deployment one needs predictable and stable maintenance of packages, something similar as 'OpenGeo Suite' is. Isn't that one of the goals of OSGeo ? What if UbuntuGIS would be that official packages distribution for OSGeo ? As Frank said, it is even possible to get some financial support once the project is accepted in to incubator. I think that there should be much more other benefits to exist under trusted organization. Ivan, I'm not convinced I accept your premise, but even if one does accept the premise then folks have options including professional support contracts. I do think that bringing more energy to DebianGIS and UbuntuGIS with an eye towards stability and predictability would be valuable. But I don't accept that a volunteer effort is inadequate to the needs of enterprise deployment. Thanks for response, I was really scared of consequences when I was writing that sentence about volunteer work. I really admire the work of all folks here, but I have also the experience from my company where we use Open Source software for 99 percent of our systems. I wanted just say that in every volunteer work there are cases where passion of volunteer and the need of enterprise customer doesn't meet. And in that case some small help (financial or non-financial) from bigger partner can move things and can be very helpful also for volunteer. Ivan ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/07/2013 01:09 AM, Bruce Bannerman wrote: Agreed. I'm sure that UbuntuGIS will have no problems finding an Incubation Mentor. Bruce Absolutely. This will be a really interesting project because it brings new aspects into incubation. Cheers, Arnulf From: Frank Warmerdam warmer...@pobox.com mailto:warmer...@pobox.com Date: Thursday, 7 November 2013 8:55 AM To: Ivan Mincik ivan.min...@gmail.com mailto:ivan.min...@gmail.com Cc: UbuntuGIS Users ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org mailto:ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation Ivan, The most obvious way in which OSGeo could show support is by having UbuntuGIS apply for incubation as an OSGeo project. Having a PSC is one step on the way to being a full fledged OSGeo project. There is also some possibility of financial support from OSGeo for UbuntuGIS but at the very least there would need to be a clear plan before any financial commitment might be made (IMHO). Best regards, -- ---+-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmer...@pobox.com mailto:warmer...@pobox.com light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| Geospatial Software Developer ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki - -- Seven of Nine http://arnulf.us/Seven Exploring Body, Space and Mind -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlJ7L1UACgkQXmFKW+BJ1b0gqACaAgbuK0lMGOmUOHYht3Y7aS7/ tkIAn01RhxyD9V0CCr+Oa8pm/7WZdWqN =7sS1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
[Ubuntu] UbuntuGIS PSC Creation
Hi, As a few of you may already know, I've recently decided to quit my job at Mapgears (http://t.co/aIgMAFlf2h). I'm still working at Mapgears as a part-time job but my availability for ubuntugis is limited. For to goodness of UbuntuGIS, I would like to create a PSC (Project Steering Committee) for the project. There are many competent people on this list and a lot of ubuntu users. The PSC responsabilities would include: - setting the overall development road map - improve collaboration with DebianGIS - trying to bring more developers! - etc. I also think UbuntuGIS needs a new senior package maintainer. Jérome did a great job during the summer and will continue to work on the project with Mapgears.. but he is still at school for the moment. I'd like to hear what you think... Best Regards, Alan -- Alan Boudreault http://www.mapgears.com/ ___ UbuntuGIS mailing list Ubuntu@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu http://trac.osgeo.org/ubuntugis/wiki
