Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter M. Brigham]

On Mar 3, 2016, at 2:30 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 3/3/2016 8:22 AM, Mike Kerner wrote:
>> Slightly off-the-subject, but for usability, command-9 and command-0 are a
>> PITA to reach for me, as a right-hander, when my right is usually on the
>> trackpad or mouse.
> 
> I changed this years ago in a custom frontscript:
> 
> on tabKey
>  if controlkey() = "down" then
>if the tool = "pointer tool"
>then choose browse tool
>else choose pointer tool
>  else pass tabKey
> end tabKey
> 
> This toggles the browse and edit tools with Control-Tab. If any other tool is 
> selected, it will toggle the tool to Edit.

I did the exact same thing, only using control-` [backquote].

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-03-03 20:33, Richard Gaskin wrote:

As for the Inspector, it may be time to consider a property sheet
rather than manually arranged control layouts.  VB and Toolbook use
prop sheets and I love having absolutely every property available in
one place. Helps with learning too, so folks can see all properties
laid out and explore them more easily.


The property inspector in 8 *is* a property sheet and it doesn't use 
manually arranged control layouts - everything is generated on demand 
based on data about the different controls (for existing engine controls 
this data is stored in hand-written text files in the IDE, for widgets 
the widget provides all the information necessary itself via LCB's 
metadata feature).


The properties are grouped into sections and currently those sections 
are displayed on different tabs - I don't think an 'all' tab is entirely 
out of the question at some point.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-03-04 02:49, Richard Gaskin wrote:

AFAIK this has always been how it works.  In fact I discussed this
with Dr. Raney shortly after if was implemented, and in his view it
works as spec'd:  when you mouseDown anywhere in browser mode it
doesn't do marquee select, so when an individual object is set to
browser mode it does the same thing.


Given the intent of the property (to make objects run in browse mode 
when another tool is actually selected) I"m not sure it could work any 
other way.


It is the card which provides the marquee selection rect to select 
multiple objects when in pointer tool mode, then individual objects 
defer to the common control base class to provide the click to select 
behavior in pointer tool mode.


When you set the cantSelect of an object, that object will then see the 
tool as browse, so when you click on it that causes the normal browse 
mode event handling to take place - which is defined on a per-object 
basis.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Richard Gaskin]

Paul Hibbert wrote:
> Having read some of the posts, especially from RG, I’m now trying to
> work in LC without the Tools Palette or the ToolBar being visible...

This has made living lean a little easier for me:


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Monte Goulding]

> On 4 Mar 2016, at 12:49 PM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> AFAIK this has always been how it works.  In fact I discussed this with Dr. 
> Raney shortly after if was implemented, and in his view it works as spec'd: 
> when you mouseDown anywhere in browser mode it doesn't do marquee select, so 
> when an individual object is set to browser mode it does the same thing.

Hmm… it must just be poorly named then. Perhaps it should have been called 
browseOnly instead of cantSelect?

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:

>> On 4 Mar 2016, at 8:36 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> Ironically, drag-select is the exact use case that prompted me
>> to STOP using cantSelect.  I was working on a drawing pane and
>> had an object covering the full space within the drawing region
>> behind everything else I wanted to user to be able to interact
>> with.  My turning on the cantSelect for that larger object it
>> no longer responds to the pointer tool, which is expected of
>> course but makes drag-select impossible is the drag begins within
>> that object.
>
> Yes, this would seem to be a bug in cantSelect where you can drag
> to select everything else but only if the initial click is not
> inside the cantSelect object. I’m not positive it has always been
> this way as it seems to rule out the use case that both Scott and
> I have used it for!

AFAIK this has always been how it works.  In fact I discussed this with 
Dr. Raney shortly after if was implemented, and in his view it works as 
spec'd:  when you mouseDown anywhere in browser mode it doesn't do 
marquee select, so when an individual object is set to browser mode it 
does the same thing.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

I made a custom plugin stack. In the plugin settings, it's set to open 
invisibly on startup. In the plugin stack script:


on preOpenStack
  insert script of btn "abc" into front
  insert script of btn "xyz" into back
  -- a bunch of other customizations
end preOpenStack

Works great, I forget it's there but I use my shortcuts all the time. My 
backscript has shortcuts dating back to HyperCard, the frontscript is 
much smaller.



On 3/3/2016 4:44 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

How do you go about inserting this everytime you boot?



On March 3, 2016 at 9:30:17 AM, J. Landman Gay 
(jac...@hyperactivesw.com) wrote:

I changed this years ago in a custom frontscript:

on tabKey
if controlkey() = "down" then
if the tool = "pointer tool"
then choose browse tool
else choose pointer tool
else pass tabKey
end tabKey

This toggles the browse and edit tools with Control-Tab. If any other
tool is selected, it will toggle the tool to Edit.
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--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/03/2016 02:44 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

How do you go about inserting this everytime you boot?


Put it in a plugin stack
Plugin's stackPreOpenStack inserts the script in front
Set the plugin to run when the IDE launches

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Monte Goulding]

> On 4 Mar 2016, at 8:36 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Ironically, drag-select is the exact use case that prompted me to STOP using 
> cantSelect.  I was working on a drawing pane and had an object covering the 
> full space within the drawing region behind everything else I wanted to user 
> to be able to interact with.  My turning on the cantSelect for that larger 
> object it no longer responds to the pointer tool, which is expected of course 
> but makes drag-select impossible is the drag begins within that object.

Yes, this would seem to be a bug in cantSelect where you can drag to select 
everything else but only if the initial click is not inside the cantSelect 
object. I’m not positive it has always been this way as it seems to rule out 
the use case that both Scott and I have used it for!

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

How do you go about inserting this everytime you boot?



On March 3, 2016 at 9:30:17 AM, J. Landman Gay 
(jac...@hyperactivesw.com) wrote:

I changed this years ago in a custom frontscript:

on tabKey
if controlkey() = "down" then
if the tool = "pointer tool"
then choose browse tool
else choose pointer tool
else pass tabKey
end tabKey

This toggles the browse and edit tools with Control-Tab. If any other
tool is selected, it will toggle the tool to Edit.
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Richard Gaskin]

Mark Wieder wrote:

> On 03/03/2016 11:52 AM, Scott Rossi wrote:
>> Not sure about LC8, but up until now, I've used the cantSelect
>> property to create styled background regions on top of which
>> foreground objects can be selected.  One example is the checkerboard
>> pattern that's often used in graphics applications to indicate a
>> transparent background.  By enabling a control's cantSelect and
>> disabled properties, you can drag-select other objects on top of
>> that control without interacting with it.
>
> Cool. Thanks for the use cases, folks. Maybe cantSelect isn't as
> arcane as I had thought.

Ironically, drag-select is the exact use case that prompted me to STOP 
using cantSelect.  I was working on a drawing pane and had an object 
covering the full space within the drawing region behind everything else 
I wanted to user to be able to interact with.  My turning on the 
cantSelect for that larger object it no longer responds to the pointer 
tool, which is expected of course but makes drag-select impossible is 
the drag begins within that object.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/03/2016 11:33 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


As for the Inspector, it may be time to consider a property sheet rather
than manually arranged control layouts.  VB and Toolbook use prop sheets
and I love having absolutely every property available in one place.
Helps with learning too, so folks can see all properties laid out and
explore them more easily.



Yeah, I'd really like to have actual property sheets.

And as far as disruptive paradigms, I've always been annoyed at having 
to go to the property inspector and have to remember where the 
'contents' section is to set the text of a label field. Double-clicking 
a label field in Edit mode should do the trick. I made a plugin to allow 
this, and I imagine everyone else did too. But I shouldn't have to do 
this, the IDE should just do that natively.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/03/2016 11:52 AM, Scott Rossi wrote:

Not sure about LC8, but up until now, I've used the cantSelect property to
create styled background regions on top of which foreground objects can be
selected.  One example is the checkerboard pattern that's often used in
graphics applications to indicate a transparent background.  By enabling a
control's cantSelect and disabled properties, you can drag-select other
objects on top of that control without interacting with it.


Cool. Thanks for the use cases, folks. Maybe cantSelect isn't as arcane 
as I had thought.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mike Kerner]

Whoops - filter box gone in 8.  My bad.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Scott Rossi  wrote:

> Not sure about LC8, but up until now, I've used the cantSelect property to
> create styled background regions on top of which foreground objects can be
> selected.  One example is the checkerboard pattern that's often used in
> graphics applications to indicate a transparent background.  By enabling a
> control's cantSelect and disabled properties, you can drag-select other
> objects on top of that control without interacting with it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
> On 3/3/16, 7:35 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder"
>  mwie...@ahsoftware.net> wrote:
>
> >I'm also curious now about the use case for cantSelect. I realize it's
> >not going away since it's always been there, but I'm having trouble
> >coming up with a scenario in which this is useful. My worry is that
> >we're putting a pretty obscure setting front and center in a primary
> >tool for stack design when screen real estate is already at a premium
> >(e.g. we're already overloading functions into the PB.
>
>
>
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Scott Rossi]

Not sure about LC8, but up until now, I've used the cantSelect property to
create styled background regions on top of which foreground objects can be
selected.  One example is the checkerboard pattern that's often used in
graphics applications to indicate a transparent background.  By enabling a
control's cantSelect and disabled properties, you can drag-select other
objects on top of that control without interacting with it.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design




On 3/3/16, 7:35 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder"
 wrote:

>I'm also curious now about the use case for cantSelect. I realize it's
>not going away since it's always been there, but I'm having trouble
>coming up with a scenario in which this is useful. My worry is that
>we're putting a pretty obscure setting front and center in a primary
>tool for stack design when screen real estate is already at a premium
>(e.g. we're already overloading functions into the PB.



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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Richard Gaskin]

Monte Goulding wrote:

>> On 4 Mar 2016, at 2:35 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:
>>
>> I'm also curious now about the use case for cantSelect
>
> I've used it before with large background images Ke graphics.
> It's pretty annoying to be trying to drag select multiple objects
> above another object that you don't want to start dragging around...

I use lockLoc for that.  In my own work I almost never use cantSelect 
because mouse messages behave VERY differently with objects set to use a 
browse mode while everything else is in pointer mode, which can lead to 
very annoying circumstances of its own depending on your scripts.


Given how frequently folks use lockLoc and how seldom cantSelect is 
used, it would seem a good choice for a tool where space is limited.


As for the Inspector, it may be time to consider a property sheet rather 
than manually arranged control layouts.  VB and Toolbook use prop sheets 
and I love having absolutely every property available in one place. 
Helps with learning too, so folks can see all properties laid out and 
explore them more easily.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/3/2016 8:22 AM, Mike Kerner wrote:

Slightly off-the-subject, but for usability, command-9 and command-0 are a
PITA to reach for me, as a right-hander, when my right is usually on the
trackpad or mouse.


I changed this years ago in a custom frontscript:

on tabKey
  if controlkey() = "down" then
if the tool = "pointer tool"
then choose browse tool
else choose pointer tool
  else pass tabKey
end tabKey

This toggles the browse and edit tools with Control-Tab. If any other 
tool is selected, it will toggle the tool to Edit.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Monte Goulding]

I've used it before with large background images Ke graphics. It's pretty 
annoying to be trying to drag select multiple objects above another object that 
you don't want to start dragging around...

Sent from my iPhone

> On 4 Mar 2016, at 2:35 AM, Mark Wieder  wrote:
> 
> I'm also curious now about the use case for cantSelect

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Toggling Browse-edit modes (was Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues)

[Devin Asay]

> On Mar 3, 2016, at 7:22 AM, Mike Kerner  wrote:

> Slightly off-the-subject, but for usability, command-9 and command-0 are a
> PITA to reach for me, as a right-hander, when my right is usually on the
> trackpad or mouse.  Remember the HC days where it was cmd-tab, cmd-tab-tab,
> etc.?  How about cmd-`, cmd-`-`?  For rightities, it's much eaiser to reach
> when your right hand is on the mouse/trackpad.

Mike,

It’s not a well known shortcut, but on Mac OS you can toggle between Browse and 
Edit modes using Command + Option + Tab. I thought that this worked on Windows, 
too, with Control + Alt + Tab, but something must have changed, because that 
key combo now brings up the Windows Application Switcher. 

Devin Asay
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Paul Hibbert]

Mike,

I don’t see a search field in the Project Browser, this is what it looks like 
when it errors…

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k3u68fott2n5npd/Screenshot%202016-03-03%2008.46.32.png?dl=0

Thanks for replying anyway.

Paul

> On Mar 3, 2016, at 8:16 AM, Mike Kerner  wrote:
> 
> Paul,
> You can also click in the search field and then click outside of it to
> force a refresh.


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Paul Hibbert]

Thank you for your reply Mark, it’s good to know the teams perspective on these 
things.

Unfortunately, finding a reproducible set of steps isn’t proving easy, I’m 
currently having problems with the Message Box and Project Browser (Bug: 
http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17048 ), where lengthy error 
messages appear in the MB and the PB suddenly becomes empty.

Another problem that I can’t find a recipe for, is the ‘tree link lines’ in the 
PB don’t always match up, closing and re-opening the PB seems to fix the issue. 
Next time I see it I’ll try to be more aware of the steps. I’ll certainly 
report it if I can find the recipe.

Another occasional problem, closing a stack using ‘Close and Remove From 
Memory’ may close the stack and remove it's entry in the PB, but by closing and 
re-opening the PB shows it's entry in the PB once again, even when the 
‘destroyStack’ & ‘'destroyWindow’ are checked and ‘cantDelete’, ‘cantModify’ 
and ‘cantAbort’ are unchecked. I’ll do some more testing to see if I can nail 
this one down, but I have a feeling it’s closely related to the bug# 17048.

Regards,

Paul

> On Mar 3, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-03-03 16:02, Paul Hibbert wrote:
>> On the subject of improving the Project Browser, I would like to see a
>> ‘Refresh’ button added to this palette, probably in the header bar by
>> the gear icon. Sometimes the PB doesn’t always update in the way you
>> would expect and the only way to refresh it right now is to close and
>> re-open the palette, I seem to have to do this all too often.
> 
> We'd rather not add a 'refresh' button to the project browser - if there are 
> instances where it does not update correctly then we need to fix those 
> instances. So, if you can find a reproducible set of steps for when it occurs 
> please do file a bug report so we can address the problem.
> 
> We do know that there will be refresh problems currently for certain (control 
> and stack manipulation) scripts when lockMessages is true (i.e. when in a 
> lock messages ... unlock messages block). Would that explain what you are 
> seeing?
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mike Kerner]

Paul,
You can also click in the search field and then click outside of it to
force a refresh.

Mark,
I have a bug report in for an issue with the PB not populating when a stack
loads.  I don't think it has been dealt with, yet.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:51 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:

> On 2016-03-03 16:35, Mark Wieder wrote:
>
>> I'm also curious now about the use case for cantSelect. I realize it's
>> not going away since it's always been there, but I'm having trouble
>> coming up with a scenario in which this is useful. My worry is that
>> we're putting a pretty obscure setting front and center in a primary
>> tool for stack design when screen real estate is already at a premium
>> (e.g. we're already overloading functions into the PB.
>>
>
> The use-case for 'cantSelect' is to allow you have objects on a stack
> which act as if they are in browse/run tool mode when the global tool is
> not the browse/run tool. For example you can create a single stack which
> has buttons allowing to (say) choose different types of graphic object, but
> still allow you to create the graphic objects on that stack with the
> standard graphic object tools. (i.e. You get a simple vector graphic object
> editor).
>
> In the IDE the 'cantSelect' property can seem strange because the IDE
> shares the same notion of current tool that user stacks do. Ideally the IDE
> 'tool' would be distinct from the user stack 'tools'; in much the same was
> as ideally it wouldn't have to rely on the same set of object manipulation
> messages as user stacks do (hence the current problem with palettes not
> updating when lock messages is in effect).
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-03-03 01:55, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/02/2016 02:21 PM, panagiotis merakos wrote:
The "mysterious lock icon with a 'Show' tootip" is setting the 
cantSelect
property of the control. The tooltip should reflect that though, so we 
have

to update it.


I'm curious, though, about the decision process that moved the
cantSelect property up the pantheon of properties out of the Property
Inspector and into the Project Browser. Is there something particular
about cantSelect that makes it more important than other properties?


I do recall us having a discussion amongst the team at the time that 
report came in.


Evaluating from a 'screen real estate' point of view then yes, it 
probably is a bit of a waste of space in the PB relative to the 
frequency of the properties use. Now I'm pretty sure that the reason 
'cantSelect' was never in the property inspector before was that once 
you had turned it on, you couldn't select the object again easily and 
thus wouldn't be able to turn it off except via the message box (so 
beginners, in particular, could get themselves into a state where they 
had accidentally set the cantSelect property and then not work out why 
they couldn't select it any more, or set the property back).


Now, having just checked this in the latest LC8 IDE - it seems that 
cantSelect makes no difference to the IDE when you manipulate objects in 
the project browser or property inspector (just when trying to use the 
mouse on the stack itself) so it might well do better in the property 
inspector... Perhaps under an 'advanced' tab where users won't 
accidentally set it and then be puzzled why Edit mode no longer works 
like Edit mode for that object!


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-03-03 16:35, Mark Wieder wrote:

I'm also curious now about the use case for cantSelect. I realize it's
not going away since it's always been there, but I'm having trouble
coming up with a scenario in which this is useful. My worry is that
we're putting a pretty obscure setting front and center in a primary
tool for stack design when screen real estate is already at a premium
(e.g. we're already overloading functions into the PB.


The use-case for 'cantSelect' is to allow you have objects on a stack 
which act as if they are in browse/run tool mode when the global tool is 
not the browse/run tool. For example you can create a single stack which 
has buttons allowing to (say) choose different types of graphic object, 
but still allow you to create the graphic objects on that stack with the 
standard graphic object tools. (i.e. You get a simple vector graphic 
object editor).


In the IDE the 'cantSelect' property can seem strange because the IDE 
shares the same notion of current tool that user stacks do. Ideally the 
IDE 'tool' would be distinct from the user stack 'tools'; in much the 
same was as ideally it wouldn't have to rely on the same set of object 
manipulation messages as user stacks do (hence the current problem with 
palettes not updating when lock messages is in effect).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/03/2016 01:09 AM, panagiotis merakos wrote:

Hi Mark,

I think the cantSelect property was always settable from within the Project
Browser. The reasons are discussed in

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16416

Hope this helps,


Thanks - that does help. I have to say, though, that Richard's argument 
in the QCC report makes more sense to me than the final decision. Why 
not just put a checkbox in the property inspector? If you're not 
changing the cantSelect by script then you have to bring up the PB to 
get to the object anyway, so the property inspector is one click away, 
and then cantSelect is like any other property.


I'm also curious now about the use case for cantSelect. I realize it's 
not going away since it's always been there, but I'm having trouble 
coming up with a scenario in which this is useful. My worry is that 
we're putting a pretty obscure setting front and center in a primary 
tool for stack design when screen real estate is already at a premium 
(e.g. we're already overloading functions into the PB.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-03-03 16:02, Paul Hibbert wrote:

On the subject of improving the Project Browser, I would like to see a
‘Refresh’ button added to this palette, probably in the header bar by
the gear icon. Sometimes the PB doesn’t always update in the way you
would expect and the only way to refresh it right now is to close and
re-open the palette, I seem to have to do this all too often.


We'd rather not add a 'refresh' button to the project browser - if there 
are instances where it does not update correctly then we need to fix 
those instances. So, if you can find a reproducible set of steps for 
when it occurs please do file a bug report so we can address the 
problem.


We do know that there will be refresh problems currently for certain 
(control and stack manipulation) scripts when lockMessages is true (i.e. 
when in a lock messages ... unlock messages block). Would that explain 
what you are seeing?


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Paul Hibbert]

On the subject of improving the Project Browser, I would like to see a 
‘Refresh’ button added to this palette, probably in the header bar by the gear 
icon. Sometimes the PB doesn’t always update in the way you would expect and 
the only way to refresh it right now is to close and re-open the palette, I 
seem to have to do this all too often.

For the widgets in the Tool Palette, personally I would prefer to see them in a 
separate ‘Widgets’ palette, but if they are to live in the Tools Palette, then 
I agree that they should be moved lower down below the main controls.

Having read some of the posts, especially from RG, I’m now trying to work in LC 
without the Tools Palette or the ToolBar being visible, all of the commands and 
controls are available under the menus so both of these palettes are not really 
necessary, but, I find the lack of some shortcuts can slow things down a 
little, so I would really like to be able to have some customizable shortcuts. 
I do keep adding some by editing the revMenuBar script, so maybe I’ll try to 
figure out the GIT stuff and make a pull request someday.

Paul
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mike Kerner]

I also agree that tools/widgets should be cleaned up.  The number of button
and field tools, in an age of widgets, especially, is too many.
Slightly off-the-subject, but for usability, command-9 and command-0 are a
PITA to reach for me, as a right-hander, when my right is usually on the
trackpad or mouse.  Remember the HC days where it was cmd-tab, cmd-tab-tab,
etc.?  How about cmd-`, cmd-`-`?  For rightities, it's much eaiser to reach
when your right hand is on the mouse/trackpad.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:36 AM, RM  wrote:

>
>
> On 2.03.2016 23:57, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>
>> On 02/03/2016 21:45, Roger Eller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I very much dislike those super dark icons in the new IDE. Especially
>>> when
>>> the icons in the Tools menu are a completely different shade of gray.
>>> They
>>> should be consistent across the IDE.  I also dislike jerks.
>>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Which specific "icons in the Tools menu" are you referring to?  I don't
>> seem to have any icons in the "Tools" menu on my system.  Do you mean the
>> widget icons in the upper half of the Tools palette, or the miniature
>> pictures of controls in the in the lower half of the tools palette, or
>> should I be looking somewhere else entirely?
>>
>> It might be quite straightforward to tweak the colour used to draw the
>> widget icons, so it might be a quick fix.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> The widget icons are dark grey on pale grey, and that gives insufficient
> contrast.
>
> R.
>
>
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On the second day, God created the oceans.
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[RM]

On 2.03.2016 23:57, Peter TB Brett wrote:

On 02/03/2016 21:45, Roger Eller wrote:


I very much dislike those super dark icons in the new IDE. Especially 
when
the icons in the Tools menu are a completely different shade of 
gray.  They

should be consistent across the IDE.  I also dislike jerks.


Thank you.

Which specific "icons in the Tools menu" are you referring to?  I 
don't seem to have any icons in the "Tools" menu on my system.  Do you 
mean the widget icons in the upper half of the Tools palette, or the 
miniature pictures of controls in the in the lower half of the tools 
palette, or should I be looking somewhere else entirely?


It might be quite straightforward to tweak the colour used to draw the 
widget icons, so it might be a quick fix.


Peter

The widget icons are dark grey on pale grey, and that gives insufficient 
contrast.


R.

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[panagiotis merakos]

Hi Mark,

I think the cantSelect property was always settable from within the Project
Browser. The reasons are discussed in

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16416

Hope this helps,
Panos
--

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:55 AM, Mark Wieder  wrote:

> On 03/02/2016 02:21 PM, panagiotis merakos wrote:
>
>> The "mysterious lock icon with a 'Show' tootip" is setting the cantSelect
>> property of the control. The tooltip should reflect that though, so we
>> have
>> to update it.
>>
>
> Ah. Thanks.
>
> I'm curious, though, about the decision process that moved the cantSelect
> property up the pantheon of properties out of the Property Inspector and
> into the Project Browser. Is there something particular about cantSelect
> that makes it more important than other properties?
>
> Just curious because there are lots of properties I fiddle with regularly,
> and I don't think I have ever set the cantSelect on an object.
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/2/2016 11:29 PM, Monte Goulding wrote:

>2) we cannot resize the content area for fields of custom props! ouch!

Yes it would seem reasonable to allow us to resize the custom control pane down 
enlarging the value field and put scrollbars on it. Perhaps the option to turn 
on and off wrapping would be helpful too.


Ditto for the content area for fields, which shows only one line. It 
needs to be far taller by default, and resizeable. I think we all edit 
text in there, it's the easiest way to change the content of a locked 
field without tinkering with its other properties. I need to see at 
least a few paragraphs most of the time.


The widths of buttons like those in the graphic effects pane are 
overbearing. They should probably be about half their current width. I 
suspect they were made that wide to accomodate the width of the stack 
header, but they do look sort of clunky. I'm not sure how to solve that, 
but the layout doesn't look right.


The ink effects popdown in the Color pane is also too wide, about three 
times wider than the text it contains, which leaves a large, unused 
empty area above it in the window. Ideally the description of the 
pattern boxes would appear to the right of each box instead of under the 
color description (I know that won't be easy, given the new method for 
building the inspector) but that would fill up some of the empty space.


But even better, I really want the ink popdown to be a list field like 
it was before, which could fit nicely in all that unused space at the 
right of the color/pattern boxes. I think most of us cycle through all 
the ink options looking for the right one, and using arrow keys to 
travel up and down the list is extremely convenient -- one keystroke and 
the target object changes its ink instantly. You can view them all very 
quickly. A popdown button requires you to complete dozens of manual 
selections, and that's not only slow, it's hard on my tendonitis.


--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Erik Beugelaar]

I totally agree with the comments from Jacqueline. 

Sent from Matwetwe < http://www.about.me/beugelaar >



On 03:26, Mar 3, 2016, at 03:26, Roland Huettmann  
wrote:
>I really like this comment from Jacqueline.
>
>Who does not eat with the eyes???
>
>An ugly apple is not purchased even if much more tasty.
>
>Roland
>
>
>On Thu, Mar 3, 2016, 01:11 J. Landman Gay 
>wrote:
>
>> On March 2, 2016 4:43:21 PM Richard Gaskin
>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Given this, I wonder if it makes more communicative sense to
>consider
>> > moving the basic controls above the Widgets, closer to the
>always-used
>> > Browse and Pointer icons.
>>
>>
>> That was one of the things on my imaginary list. I'd like to see
>widgets at
>> the bottom of the tool palette where they are out of the way, and
>where
>> there is room for expansion as more become available. The primary hit
>> regions will always be the browse and edit tools, and they need to be
>> slightly larger than all the others and at the top where the user's
>eye
>> will focus first.
>>
>> Widgets are also a little too large compared to the other icons, and
>too
>> dark, which makes them visually distracting. They also don't match
>the rest
>> of the interface. Most professional teams create a particular color
>palette
>> early on that will represent their brand and all interface elements
>must
>> adhere to it. Apple uses blue, Google centers around certain
>saturations of
>> primary colors, etc.  LC should choose a color scheme and use it
>throughout
>> to visually integrate all components.
>>
>> I'd avoid greys except as backgrounds. Very dark gray is okay for
>text but
>> not so good for primary icons, it's too overbearing. Very light grey
>is
>> difficult to see, and also implies less importance (temporary text in
>> fields is often light grey, for example, to indicate the text will
>> disappear when the user starts typing.)
>>
>> I do favor functionality over appearance, but the sad fact is that
>new
>> users will base their first impressions of the product on how it
>looks.
>> These are some of the small details that matter for a professional
>> presentation.
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>
>>
>>
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/2/2016 10:27 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

4) no tool tips for the icons at the top. Those who have poor visual
memory (many coders do) will have this subtle "what does the icon do"
reaction. Please add the tool tips.


I need those too. The tooltips are actually there, they just don't 
display. The same omission also happens when pointing to any widget in 
the tool palette.


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Monte Goulding]

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 3:27 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
> wrote:
> 
> 0) Script editor needs its own top level icon in the Prop inspector! Already 
> requested, but in DP15 it did not happen. If you need space then move the 
> geometry manager icon off to the advanced pull down. Editing scripts comes 
> way ahead of geo manager in dev priority.

What’s wrong with the bug Code button on the toolbar? I would say it could go 
where the prefs cog and just edit the prefs for the inspector in the 
preferences UI, however, I would note that we haven’t had a script button on 
the inspector for some years.
> 
> 1)  the card title of prop inspector goes dim if you click on the stack. The 
> greyscale level is so low i can barely read it.

This is just what happens to palette windows. I’m not sure how you are 
expecting them to fix that.
> 
> 2) we cannot resize the content area for fields of custom props! ouch!

Yes it would seem reasonable to allow us to resize the custom control pane down 
enlarging the value field and put scrollbars on it. Perhaps the option to turn 
on and off wrapping would be helpful too.
> 
> 3) after setting a color in the colors, there is no "Clear" option. you 
> actually have to right click and choose "reset to default"  which is OK I 
> guess once you try that, but newbies will be frustrated

Yes I suspect an inherited checkbox might be good there.
> 
> 4) no tool tips for the icons at the top. Those who have poor visual memory 
> (many coders do) will have this subtle "what does the icon do" reaction. 
> Please add the tool tips.

I agree that would be helpful
> 
> 5) Graphic effects icon doesn't make any sense... looks like another pencil 
> or something. Better to have a small circle with a gradient or something.

I’m not sure about the icon but there’s some other issues here too. The color 
dialog opens behind the gradient dialog. It’s not intuitive that you need to 
choose from the types in order to add a gradient (perhaps a cancel button to 
reset to previous and apply a gradient from the start). Choosing reset to 
default presents the dialog in addition to clearing.
> 
> 6) Entering custom props is messed up (already reported and confirm)…

Yes I reported an issue with the property not being set unless you click around 
and it definitely fails if you add another property in your clicking around.
> 
> 7) Button icons icon doesn't make visual sense... find an icon that looks 
> like an icon.


Works for me actually

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

On March 2, 2016 at 4:29:17 PM, J. Landman Gay 
(jac...@hyperactivesw.com) wrote:

> The idea was to be able to select things in the PB that may not be in
> view, even on totally different cards or stacks, and be able to work
> with them without going there. Hilited lines indicate which objects will
> be affected. This could be useful. On the other hand, there is now a
> disconnect between visible selections on a card and objects you can act
> on within the PB.

I'm already fond of this feature. I may have the property inspector open for 
one object but i want to edit the script of a different one. Being able to 
click the other object script lines number without losing the current selected 
object is, IMHO very useful

> Selections also act slightly differently in the Property Inspector. It
> used to be you could shift-click several objects and then double-click
> any one of them to open the multi-object inspector. That doesn't work
> now. Instead you double-click one object on the card to open its
> inspector and then shift-click objects to add more. That causes the
> alignment icon to appear at the top left of the inspector, and the other
> icons will operate on all the selected objects.

Agreed.. this is an issue. I'm always needing to align controls.


  There are multiple issue with the prop inspector.  Not sure how best to 
tackle them.

e.g.

0) Script editor needs its own top level icon in the Prop inspector! Already 
requested, but in DP15 it did not happen. If you need space then move the 
geometry manager icon off to the advanced pull down. Editing scripts comes 
way ahead of geo manager in dev priority.

1)  the card title of prop inspector goes dim if you click on the stack. The 
greyscale level is so low i can barely read it.

2) we cannot resize the content area for fields of custom props! ouch!

3) after setting a color in the colors, there is no "Clear" option. you 
actually have to right click and choose "reset to default"  which is OK I guess 
once you try that, but newbies will be frustrated

4) no tool tips for the icons at the top. Those who have poor visual memory 
(many coders do) will have this subtle "what does the icon do" reaction. Please 
add the tool tips.

5) Graphic effects icon doesn't make any sense... looks like another pencil or 
something. Better to have a small circle with a gradient or something.

6) Entering custom props is messed up (already reported and confirm)...

7) Button icons icon doesn't make visual sense... find an icon that looks like 
an icon.

This is just the beginning. Far, Far from any kind or release candidate IMHO.

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/2/2016 7:11 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/02/2016 04:09 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


I do favor functionality over appearance, but the sad fact is that new
users will base their first impressions of the product on how it looks.
These are some of the small details that matter for a professional
presentation.


Coming soon...

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=26133#p135929

Holding off an official release because LC8 is still in flux.



Nice, I'd forgotten about that since I first saw it. The forum topic has 
feedback similar to ours here too.


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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Roland Huettmann]

I really like this comment from Jacqueline.

Who does not eat with the eyes???

An ugly apple is not purchased even if much more tasty.

Roland


On Thu, Mar 3, 2016, 01:11 J. Landman Gay  wrote:

> On March 2, 2016 4:43:21 PM Richard Gaskin 
> wrote:
> >
> > Given this, I wonder if it makes more communicative sense to consider
> > moving the basic controls above the Widgets, closer to the always-used
> > Browse and Pointer icons.
>
>
> That was one of the things on my imaginary list. I'd like to see widgets at
> the bottom of the tool palette where they are out of the way, and where
> there is room for expansion as more become available. The primary hit
> regions will always be the browse and edit tools, and they need to be
> slightly larger than all the others and at the top where the user's eye
> will focus first.
>
> Widgets are also a little too large compared to the other icons, and too
> dark, which makes them visually distracting. They also don't match the rest
> of the interface. Most professional teams create a particular color palette
> early on that will represent their brand and all interface elements must
> adhere to it. Apple uses blue, Google centers around certain saturations of
> primary colors, etc.  LC should choose a color scheme and use it throughout
> to visually integrate all components.
>
> I'd avoid greys except as backgrounds. Very dark gray is okay for text but
> not so good for primary icons, it's too overbearing. Very light grey is
> difficult to see, and also implies less importance (temporary text in
> fields is often light grey, for example, to indicate the text will
> disappear when the user starts typing.)
>
> I do favor functionality over appearance, but the sad fact is that new
> users will base their first impressions of the product on how it looks.
> These are some of the small details that matter for a professional
> presentation.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
>
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 02:08 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:


Thanks -- that's a much more complete / thorough explanation than I
managed to give.  The Project Browser tries to fit a lot of features
into a small amount of space and I'm not convinced that we've found the
most efficient way to pack them.

In the core dev team we use the Project Browser a *lot* when working on
the IDE.  But we probably use it in a different way to the way many
people developing apps with the IDE use it.  We need to get more
feedback about what it does well (so we don't mess with those parts) and
clear feedback about specific things it does badly (so we can tweak them).


Well, the PreferencesUI stack has a panel for the Application Browser 
where you can set actions for various object types. But the Project 
Browser doesn't respect these settings. As a start, it might be nice to 
have these carry over so that when a user migrates from the AB to the PB 
and double-clicks a card, for instance, she doesn't have to wonder why 
the property inspector doesn't pop up.


--
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 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Monte Goulding]

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 11:55 AM, Mark Wieder  wrote:
> 
> I'm curious, though, about the decision process that moved the cantSelect 
> property up the pantheon of properties out of the Property Inspector and into 
> the Project Browser. Is there something particular about cantSelect that 
> makes it more important than other properties?
> 
> Just curious because there are lots of properties I fiddle with regularly, 
> and I don't think I have ever set the cantSelect on an object.

It was in the application browser so it may be a case of it has always been 
there… that and if you can’t select an object it is just that bit harder to 
present its inspector…

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Monte Goulding]

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 11:09 AM, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> On March 2, 2016 4:43:21 PM Richard Gaskin  wrote:
>> 
>> Given this, I wonder if it makes more communicative sense to consider
>> moving the basic controls above the Widgets, closer to the always-used
>> Browse and Pointer icons.
> 
> 
> That was one of the things on my imaginary list. I'd like to see widgets at 
> the bottom of the tool palette where they are out of the way, and where there 
> is room for expansion as more become available. The primary hit regions will 
> always be the browse and edit tools, and they need to be slightly larger than 
> all the others and at the top where the user's eye will focus first.

I’m not sure if “out of the way” is exactly the direction the platform is 
heading. Once there are a much larger range of widgets we might not be using 
legacy controls that much any more. At the moment you can choose if you want to 
hide a group. I just hid the paint tools because I can’t remember ever using 
those… It would be nice if we could manage and order (top to bottom) our own 
groups of controls. I think this will be where we need to go when we have the 
“problem" of dealing with too many widgets. That and the ability to nest a set 
of controls into a popup button within another group of controls which was 
suggested earlier. As the LC 8.x series matures I expect these kinds of 
solutions will be a natural progression and likely arrive before or just in 
time for when they are needed.

> I'd avoid greys except as backgrounds. Very dark gray is okay for text but 
> not so good for primary icons, it's too overbearing. Very light grey is 
> difficult to see, and also implies less importance (temporary text in fields 
> is often light grey, for example, to indicate the text will disappear when 
> the user starts typing.)

I’d like to see this and a great many other colors in the UI be user settings 
along with an easy way to share such settings between users.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 04:09 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


I do favor functionality over appearance, but the sad fact is that new
users will base their first impressions of the product on how it looks.
These are some of the small details that matter for a professional
presentation.


Coming soon...

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=26133#p135929

Holding off an official release because LC8 is still in flux.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 02:21 PM, panagiotis merakos wrote:

The "mysterious lock icon with a 'Show' tootip" is setting the cantSelect
property of the control. The tooltip should reflect that though, so we have
to update it.


Ah. Thanks.

I'm curious, though, about the decision process that moved the 
cantSelect property up the pantheon of properties out of the Property 
Inspector and into the Project Browser. Is there something particular 
about cantSelect that makes it more important than other properties?


Just curious because there are lots of properties I fiddle with 
regularly, and I don't think I have ever set the cantSelect on an object.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On March 2, 2016 4:43:21 PM Richard Gaskin  wrote:


Given this, I wonder if it makes more communicative sense to consider
moving the basic controls above the Widgets, closer to the always-used
Browse and Pointer icons.



That was one of the things on my imaginary list. I'd like to see widgets at 
the bottom of the tool palette where they are out of the way, and where 
there is room for expansion as more become available. The primary hit 
regions will always be the browse and edit tools, and they need to be 
slightly larger than all the others and at the top where the user's eye 
will focus first.


Widgets are also a little too large compared to the other icons, and too 
dark, which makes them visually distracting. They also don't match the rest 
of the interface. Most professional teams create a particular color palette 
early on that will represent their brand and all interface elements must 
adhere to it. Apple uses blue, Google centers around certain saturations of 
primary colors, etc.  LC should choose a color scheme and use it throughout 
to visually integrate all components.


I'd avoid greys except as backgrounds. Very dark gray is okay for text but 
not so good for primary icons, it's too overbearing. Very light grey is 
difficult to see, and also implies less importance (temporary text in 
fields is often light grey, for example, to indicate the text will 
disappear when the user starts typing.)


I do favor functionality over appearance, but the sad fact is that new 
users will base their first impressions of the product on how it looks. 
These are some of the small details that matter for a professional 
presentation.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Roger Eller]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> I haven't used the Tools palette in years, but this conversation prompted
> me to take a gander.
>
> I wonder if having the Widgets above the basic controls is the best place
> for them.
>
>
Tools palette.  Widgets palette.  Separate and simple, with room to grow.

~Roger
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter Haworth]

An lcstackbrowser user requested the "single tool with option to set the
style "some time ago and I implemented it.  It takes a lot less screen
space and I think is useful for experienced users but might be a little
daunting for new users.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM Devin Asay  wrote:

>
> > On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:42 PM, Richard Gaskin 
> wrote:
> >
> > I haven't used the Tools palette in years, but this conversation
> prompted me to take a gander.
> >
> > I wonder if having the Widgets above the basic controls is the best
> place for them.
> >
> > I tend to think of UIs as telling a story, and sometimes that can
> include communicating the importance of things by their placement.
> >
> > Having the Browse and Pointer tools at the top, and giving them the
> largest target area, seem like good choices given their very central role
> throughout development.
> >
> > But I'll spend weeks at a time adding only buttons and fields to cards,
> only occasionally using anything else.
> >
> > The Widgets, while both useful and cool, are less commonly used. Indeed,
> most projects will use most of them once or twice if at all.
> >
> > Given this, I wonder if it makes more communicative sense to consider
> moving the basic controls above the Widgets, closer to the always-used
> Browse and Pointer icons.
> >
> > I might even go so far as to consider moving the graphics above Widgets
> as well, to be consistent in terms of frequency of use, though I recognize
> that the paint tools are perhaps the least commonly used of all, and they
> make sense being grouped near the drawing tools, so perhaps leaving that
> whole set at the bottom is fine, and we could just consider moving the
> basic tools (buttons, fields, and such) above the Widgets.
> >
> > Any opinions on this?
>
> I’m with you on this, Richard. The tools palette is getting very cluttery,
> and could stand a tidying up. For instance, right now there are:
> - 5 button tools
> - 5 field tools
> - 5 menu button tools
> - 4 scrollbar tools
>
> Would it make sense to fold each object class into a single tool with an
> option to set a different style of each object as the default? Sort of how
> Photoshop’s tools palette lets you select the type of marquee tool (or
> shape tool, or magic wand tool, etc. etc.) that is the default.
>
> >
> >
> > PS: What happens when one has 100 Widgets installed?
>
> Right. Now you can choose to hide or show entire sections of the tools
> palette. (Although I had somehow completely missed that option, and only
> noticed it when someone here referred to it.)
>
> I’d like to see an option to display only selected widgets (or other
> tools) on the tools palette.
>
>
> Devin
>
>
> Devin Asay
> Office of Digital Humanities
> Brigham Young University
>
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Richard Gaskin]

I haven't used the Tools palette in years, but this conversation 
prompted me to take a gander.


I wonder if having the Widgets above the basic controls is the best 
place for them.


I tend to think of UIs as telling a story, and sometimes that can 
include communicating the importance of things by their placement.


Having the Browse and Pointer tools at the top, and giving them the 
largest target area, seem like good choices given their very central 
role throughout development.


But I'll spend weeks at a time adding only buttons and fields to cards, 
only occasionally using anything else.


The Widgets, while both useful and cool, are less commonly used. 
Indeed, most projects will use most of them once or twice if at all.


Given this, I wonder if it makes more communicative sense to consider 
moving the basic controls above the Widgets, closer to the always-used 
Browse and Pointer icons.


I might even go so far as to consider moving the graphics above Widgets 
as well, to be consistent in terms of frequency of use, though I 
recognize that the paint tools are perhaps the least commonly used of 
all, and they make sense being grouped near the drawing tools, so 
perhaps leaving that whole set at the bottom is fine, and we could just 
consider moving the basic tools (buttons, fields, and such) above the 
Widgets.


Any opinions on this?


PS: What happens when one has 100 Widgets installed?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Terry Judd]

On 3/03/2016 9:26 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Roger Eller"
 wrote:


>Tools pallette (not menu).  Yes, the widget icons are gray, but the new
>flat icons across the top (Inspector, Code, Message Box, etc.) are pure
>black.  I would rather see a more consistent appearance for all icons in
>the IDE.

I think you¹re right. I¹m more concerned with how things work than how
they look but there is a bit on inconsistency around the intensity of
black/grey used in icons - and text - across the menubar, tool palette,
stack/card/object inspector and project browser. As far as the latest
incarnation of the project browser goes I quite like it - certainly enough
to not really miss the application browser now it has gone. The selection
indicator (dotted outline) is useful but it doesn¹t immediately update
when you select an object/control by double-clicking an item in the
browser.

Terry...


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Roger Eller]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Peter TB Brett 
wrote:

> On 02/03/2016 21:45, Roger Eller wrote:
>
>>
>> I very much dislike those super dark icons in the new IDE.  Especially
>> when
>> the icons in the Tools menu are a completely different shade of gray.
>> They
>> should be consistent across the IDE.  I also dislike jerks.
>>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Which specific "icons in the Tools menu" are you referring to?  I don't
> seem to have any icons in the "Tools" menu on my system.  Do you mean the
> widget icons in the upper half of the Tools palette, or the miniature
> pictures of controls in the in the lower half of the tools palette, or
> should I be looking somewhere else entirely?
>
> It might be quite straightforward to tweak the colour used to draw the
> widget icons, so it might be a quick fix.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Open Source Team
>

Tools pallette (not menu).  Yes, the widget icons are gray, but the new
flat icons across the top (Inspector, Code, Message Box, etc.) are pure
black.  I would rather see a more consistent appearance for all icons in
the IDE.
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[panagiotis merakos]

The "mysterious lock icon with a 'Show' tootip" is setting the cantSelect
property of the control. The tooltip should reflect that though, so we have
to update it.

Panos
--

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Peter TB Brett 
wrote:

> On 02/03/2016 16:28, Mark Wieder wrote:
>
>> On 03/01/2016 11:39 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>>
>> You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on
>>> the card.
>>>
>>
>> Empirically...
>> You can double click on an item's icon to do that.
>> Double-clicking on the name allows you to edit the name.
>> Single-clicking a line in the PB has no appreciable effect (other than
>> highlighting the line in the PB).
>>
>> Double-clicking the mysterious lock icon with a "Show" tooltip also
>> seems to select the highlighted object.
>>
>
> Thanks -- that's a much more complete / thorough explanation than I
> managed to give.  The Project Browser tries to fit a lot of features into a
> small amount of space and I'm not convinced that we've found the most
> efficient way to pack them.
>
> In the core dev team we use the Project Browser a *lot* when working on
> the IDE.  But we probably use it in a different way to the way many people
> developing apps with the IDE use it.  We need to get more feedback about
> what it does well (so we don't mess with those parts) and clear feedback
> about specific things it does badly (so we can tweak them).
>
> I'm not entirely sure what the "mysterious lock icon with a 'Show' tootip"
> is for... I haven't used it yet.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Open Source Team
>
> LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
>
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter TB Brett]

On 02/03/2016 16:28, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/01/2016 11:39 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:


You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on
the card.


Empirically...
You can double click on an item's icon to do that.
Double-clicking on the name allows you to edit the name.
Single-clicking a line in the PB has no appreciable effect (other than
highlighting the line in the PB).

Double-clicking the mysterious lock icon with a "Show" tooltip also
seems to select the highlighted object.


Thanks -- that's a much more complete / thorough explanation than I 
managed to give.  The Project Browser tries to fit a lot of features 
into a small amount of space and I'm not convinced that we've found the 
most efficient way to pack them.


In the core dev team we use the Project Browser a *lot* when working on 
the IDE.  But we probably use it in a different way to the way many 
people developing apps with the IDE use it.  We need to get more 
feedback about what it does well (so we don't mess with those parts) and 
clear feedback about specific things it does badly (so we can tweak them).


I'm not entirely sure what the "mysterious lock icon with a 'Show' 
tootip" is for... I haven't used it yet.


Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter TB Brett]

On 02/03/2016 21:45, Roger Eller wrote:


I very much dislike those super dark icons in the new IDE.  Especially when
the icons in the Tools menu are a completely different shade of gray.  They
should be consistent across the IDE.  I also dislike jerks.


Thank you.

Which specific "icons in the Tools menu" are you referring to?  I don't 
seem to have any icons in the "Tools" menu on my system.  Do you mean 
the widget icons in the upper half of the Tools palette, or the 
miniature pictures of controls in the in the lower half of the tools 
palette, or should I be looking somewhere else entirely?


It might be quite straightforward to tweak the colour used to draw the 
widget icons, so it might be a quick fix.


Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Roger Eller]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Peter TB Brett 
wrote:

> On 02/03/2016 17:23, RM wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>
> Please don't do this.  If you don't have anything substantive to
> contribute to the conversation, please don't waste the inbox space of
> hundreds of mailing list users.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Open Source Team
>

I very much dislike those super dark icons in the new IDE.  Especially when
the icons in the Tools menu are a completely different shade of gray.  They
should be consistent across the IDE.  I also dislike jerks.

~Roger
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter TB Brett]

On 02/03/2016 17:23, RM wrote:

+1


Please don't do this.  If you don't have anything substantive to 
contribute to the conversation, please don't waste the inbox space of 
hundreds of mailing list users.


Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 11:53 AM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


Oh yes, absolutely, and I've found the team to be remarkably responsive.
I was very impressed with Ali, he really listened and was intent on
making the IDE as perfect as possible. I wanted to hug him, I was that
happy.


And not just Ali, the whole team is very responsive. I'll continue to 
carp about things here as necessary, but I'm very impressed with the 
progress this huge project is making.




That said, there are certain established expectations for how computer
interfaces work,


Sometimes it's necessary to break the rules, but otherwise I think the 
Principle of Least Surprise would dictate that we would go with whatever 
the user expects from the OS guidelines.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 12:10 PM, RM wrote:


I am actually quite curious as to why the Livecode team decided to
change the Properties palette so radically.




To be fair about that, the current/previous/whatever property inspector 
leaves a lot to be desired. There's been much complaining over the 
years, and not just by the two of us. But I find the newer PI not so 
much a radical change from the earlier one. I'm not averse to radical 
changes, but it seems like the older PI in a new bottle. And the new 
bottle doesn't seem like a big step forward.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[RM]

On 2.03.2016 21:53, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 3/2/2016 10:04 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote:

Just to clarify my comment, what I was trying to point out (in an
attempt at a humourous way) is that invoking a 'interface designer' does
not magically mean you end up with a user interface which any one person
agrees with, or actually works for all use-cases.


Oh yes, absolutely, and I've found the team to be remarkably 
responsive. I was very impressed with Ali, he really listened and was 
intent on making the IDE as perfect as possible. I wanted to hug him, 
I was that happy.


That said, there are certain established expectations for how computer 
interfaces work, how people read/scan written material, how layouts 
are most easily accessed, and so forth. Every time a tool breaks any 
of those expectations the user will be frustrated or annoyed, even if 
it is just momentary. That's what happened to me when I recently 
started to explore the new IDE.


I have very strong motivations to use LC, it's my whole business. But 
I was frustrated enough that I went back to vs 7 after each attempt 
with 8. I will learn it eventually, and I'm willing to do so, but I 
wonder about the new users we want to court. If they need to read 
documentation (currently lacking) and expend a lot of effort to learn 
how a tool works ("selections aren't as you'd expect, we do it this 
way,") they won't bother. We'll lose them.


I could make a list if that would help. There are too many small 
things to write reports about each one, but I do think that attention 
to these little details would improve the user experience. The team 
may think my criticisms are trivial, but they did cause me trouble. 
And I very much want new users to intuit the IDE immediately and get 
drawn in. Surely making them fight their instincts can't be productive.




I am actually quite curious as to why the Livecode team decided to 
change the Properties palette

so radically.

R.

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/2/2016 10:04 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote:

Just to clarify my comment, what I was trying to point out (in an
attempt at a humourous way) is that invoking a 'interface designer' does
not magically mean you end up with a user interface which any one person
agrees with, or actually works for all use-cases.


Oh yes, absolutely, and I've found the team to be remarkably responsive. 
I was very impressed with Ali, he really listened and was intent on 
making the IDE as perfect as possible. I wanted to hug him, I was that 
happy.


That said, there are certain established expectations for how computer 
interfaces work, how people read/scan written material, how layouts are 
most easily accessed, and so forth. Every time a tool breaks any of 
those expectations the user will be frustrated or annoyed, even if it is 
just momentary. That's what happened to me when I recently started to 
explore the new IDE.


I have very strong motivations to use LC, it's my whole business. But I 
was frustrated enough that I went back to vs 7 after each attempt with 
8. I will learn it eventually, and I'm willing to do so, but I wonder 
about the new users we want to court. If they need to read documentation 
(currently lacking) and expend a lot of effort to learn how a tool works 
("selections aren't as you'd expect, we do it this way,") they won't 
bother. We'll lose them.


I could make a list if that would help. There are too many small things 
to write reports about each one, but I do think that attention to these 
little details would improve the user experience. The team may think my 
criticisms are trivial, but they did cause me trouble. And I very much 
want new users to intuit the IDE immediately and get drawn in. Surely 
making them fight their instincts can't be productive.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[RM]

On 2.03.2016 19:13, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/02/2016 08:04 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote:


I do think this has been occurring quite healthily recently with regards
LC8 and, indeed, some of the tweaks that have been made to the project
browser (in particular its selection / highlighting logic) have been a
direct result of discussion with individuals who have pointed out
certain flaws and I do hope that will continue.


I'm sure that over time the new paradigms will become ingrained and 
the former muscle memory will fade.


The tiny gray-on-gray icons, though, are another matter. I shudder to 
think of the universe in which someone thought that was a Good Idea. I 
realize that this was no doubt the result of careful A-B testing with 
developer usability focus groups, but nonetheless...


I've been mucking around in the IDE and seem unable to find the icons, 
and assume that, like the new BW menuBar icons they are stored "off 
campus" and referenced:


But I am bu**ered if I can find them.

Richmond.


The eldritch gods are starting to awaken.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.




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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Richard Gaskin]

Mark Wieder wrote:

> The tiny gray-on-gray icons, though, are another matter. I shudder to
> think of the universe in which someone thought that was a Good Idea.

At the top of the window or somewhere else?

At once point I'd submitted a request to use the large icon option for 
the top panel as the default, and that was implemented (thanks, Ali!).


So if you're seeing smaller icons there that's a regression.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[RM]

On 2.03.2016 19:13, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/02/2016 08:04 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote:


I do think this has been occurring quite healthily recently with regards
LC8 and, indeed, some of the tweaks that have been made to the project
browser (in particular its selection / highlighting logic) have been a
direct result of discussion with individuals who have pointed out
certain flaws and I do hope that will continue.


I'm sure that over time the new paradigms will become ingrained and 
the former muscle memory will fade.


The tiny gray-on-gray icons, though, are another matter. I shudder to 
think of the universe in which someone thought that was a Good Idea. I 
realize that this was no doubt the result of careful A-B testing with 
developer usability focus groups, but nonetheless...


+1

Richmond



The eldritch gods are starting to awaken.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.




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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 09:09 AM, Tore Nilsen wrote:

Have you tried looking for it in LC 8, which seems to be the version discussed 
in this thread?


Read the previous post.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 09:05 AM, John Dixon wrote:


Anyone in Edinburgh considered asking Scott Rossi how much time he has on his 
hands ? :-)


LOL. +1

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 08:04 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote:


I do think this has been occurring quite healthily recently with regards
LC8 and, indeed, some of the tweaks that have been made to the project
browser (in particular its selection / highlighting logic) have been a
direct result of discussion with individuals who have pointed out
certain flaws and I do hope that will continue.


I'm sure that over time the new paradigms will become ingrained and the 
former muscle memory will fade.


The tiny gray-on-gray icons, though, are another matter. I shudder to 
think of the universe in which someone thought that was a Good Idea. I 
realize that this was no doubt the result of careful A-B testing with 
developer usability focus groups, but nonetheless...


The eldritch gods are starting to awaken.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Tore Nilsen]

Have you tried looking for it in LC 8, which seems to be the version discussed 
in this thread?

Tore


> 2. mar. 2016 kl. 18.02 skrev Mark Wieder :
> 
> On 03/02/2016 08:23 AM, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>> On 02/03/2016 16:15, Mark Wieder wrote:
>>> On 03/01/2016 11:39 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>>> 
 You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on
 the card.
>>> 
>>> OK - that's getting pinned on the wall as well.
>>> Is this stuff documented somewhere?
>> 
>> See http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16609
>> 
>>> The User Guide is missing in action (bug 17054) and the "All User
>>> Guides" menu item just opens the dictionary which, at least on linux, is
>>> somewhat less than actually functional.
>> 
>> It opens the "Guides" tab of the dictionary stack, which on platforms
>> where the browser widget works, displays the user guides (funnily enough).
> 
> OK. Fair enough. So I opened the User Guide for LC 7.1.2, and that brought up 
> the pdf (User Guide 4.5 - Revision 19), which has no mention of the Project 
> Browser.
> 
> In 7.1.2, selecting "All Guides" goes to the LC website, where I can select 
> the "Beginners-Guide" (not sure why the hyphenation), then control-F to 
> search for "Project". There's a single image there, and I assume that this is 
> the same content that would appear if there were an actual User Guide pdf. I 
> do see some explanatory text, but nothing like the discussions here. And I'm 
> still mystified about the lock icon with the tooltip of "Show" and the 
> explanation of "Selectability".
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com 
> 
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RE: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[John Dixon]

> 
> Indeed - perfection is a journey, not a destination.
> 
> Just to clarify my comment, what I was trying to point out (in an 
> attempt at a humourous way) is that invoking a 'interface designer' does 
> not magically mean you end up with a user interface which any one person 
> agrees with, or actually works for all use-cases. This does not mean to 
> say that having a full time experienced dev-tool oriented UX designer 
> wouldn't help immeasurably with the evolution of LiveCode's interface, 
> but it certainly wouldn't be a magic wand which makes things better 
> overnight.
> 
> My observation over the years that regardless of the UX design 
> experience of the person designing things developing a good UI comes 
> down to dialog between the designer(s) and the user(s); and as with all 
> things it generally comes down to compromise.

Anyone in Edinburgh considered asking Scott Rossi how much time he has on his 
hands ? :-)


  
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/02/2016 08:23 AM, Peter TB Brett wrote:

On 02/03/2016 16:15, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/01/2016 11:39 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:


You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on
the card.


OK - that's getting pinned on the wall as well.
Is this stuff documented somewhere?


See http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16609


The User Guide is missing in action (bug 17054) and the "All User
Guides" menu item just opens the dictionary which, at least on linux, is
somewhat less than actually functional.


It opens the "Guides" tab of the dictionary stack, which on platforms
where the browser widget works, displays the user guides (funnily enough).


OK. Fair enough. So I opened the User Guide for LC 7.1.2, and that 
brought up the pdf (User Guide 4.5 - Revision 19), which has no mention 
of the Project Browser.


In 7.1.2, selecting "All Guides" goes to the LC website, where I can 
select the "Beginners-Guide" (not sure why the hyphenation), then 
control-F to search for "Project". There's a single image there, and I 
assume that this is the same content that would appear if there were an 
actual User Guide pdf. I do see some explanatory text, but nothing like 
the discussions here. And I'm still mystified about the lock icon with 
the tooltip of "Show" and the explanation of "Selectability".


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-03-02 16:44, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Mark Waddingham wrote:


On 2016-03-02 06:46, J. Landman Gay wrote:

I confess my first reaction was that LC needs an interface designer.


Ah - yes - those magical 'interface designers' who you just ask to
give you the perfect UI that *everyone* immediately understands and
knows how to use and works exactly how each individual wants it to
work ;)


There is no best; there is always better.


Indeed - perfection is a journey, not a destination.

Just to clarify my comment, what I was trying to point out (in an 
attempt at a humourous way) is that invoking a 'interface designer' does 
not magically mean you end up with a user interface which any one person 
agrees with, or actually works for all use-cases. This does not mean to 
say that having a full time experienced dev-tool oriented UX designer 
wouldn't help immeasurably with the evolution of LiveCode's interface, 
but it certainly wouldn't be a magic wand which makes things better 
overnight.


My observation over the years that regardless of the UX design 
experience of the person designing things developing a good UI comes 
down to dialog between the designer(s) and the user(s); and as with all 
things it generally comes down to compromise.


I do think this has been occurring quite healthily recently with regards 
LC8 and, indeed, some of the tweaks that have been made to the project 
browser (in particular its selection / highlighting logic) have been a 
direct result of discussion with individuals who have pointed out 
certain flaws and I do hope that will continue.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/01/2016 11:39 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:


You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on
the card.


Empirically...
You can double click on an item's icon to do that.
Double-clicking on the name allows you to edit the name.
Single-clicking a line in the PB has no appreciable effect (other than 
highlighting the line in the PB).


Double-clicking the mysterious lock icon with a "Show" tooltip also 
seems to select the highlighted object.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter TB Brett]

On 02/03/2016 16:15, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/01/2016 11:39 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:


You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on
the card.


OK - that's getting pinned on the wall as well.
Is this stuff documented somewhere?


See http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16609


The User Guide is missing in action (bug 17054) and the "All User
Guides" menu item just opens the dictionary which, at least on linux, is
somewhat less than actually functional.


It opens the "Guides" tab of the dictionary stack, which on platforms 
where the browser widget works, displays the user guides (funnily enough).


   Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/01/2016 11:39 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:


You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on
the card.


OK - that's getting pinned on the wall as well.
Is this stuff documented somewhere?

The User Guide is missing in action (bug 17054) and the "All User 
Guides" menu item just opens the dictionary which, at least on linux, is 
somewhat less than actually functional.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Richard Gaskin]

Mark Waddingham wrote:

> On 2016-03-02 06:46, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>> I confess my first reaction was that LC needs an interface designer.
>
> Ah - yes - those magical 'interface designers' who you just ask to
> give you the perfect UI that *everyone* immediately understands and
> knows how to use and works exactly how each individual wants it to
> work ;)

There is no best; there is always better.

We could use reductio ad absurdum to trivialize any profession.  Where's 
the magical software engineer who can deliver perfect bug-free code on 
schedule every time? ;) I've never heard of such a thing; ours is an 
imperfect world defined by constraints.


UX professionals are moving fast up the org charts at some of the most 
profitable companies in the world because their work contributes to 
directly measurable sales growth.  In some companies UX is a strategic 
C-suite position.


Of course it's not possible to produce a single UI that will satisfy all 
possible use cases.


But I do hope we all keep an open mind and actively listen to 
suggestions from users.  Not all of them will be actionable, and some of 
them might not be all that useful, but many of them can lead to insights 
into ways to improve the LiveCode experience, and that benefits us all.


Hopefully one day LiveCode Ltd. will grow large enough to be able to 
hire a UX strategist, who could contribute to refining the UI as well as 
onboarding materials, marketing assets, and more, reducing ever further 
the distance between "What is this?" and "Yes I want this!"


The company is chock full of uncommonly smart people, but not everyone 
is a specialist in everything.  Let's leave the door open the continual 
improvement in design.


I know firsthand the team has been very receptive to good ideas well 
presented in enhancement requests.  So all I'm saying here is let's keep 
our ears and minds open as we continue our journey forward.


Corning Gorilla Glass was an interesting technology sitting on the shelf 
in their labs until a crazy UX strategist called them up and suggested 
it might be useful on a phone.  We just never know where the next useful 
idea might come from.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Tore Nilsen]

> 2. mar. 2016 kl. 09.39 skrev Mark Waddingham :
> 
> On 2016-03-02 06:46, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>> I confess my first reaction was that LC needs an interface designer.
> 
> Ah - yes - those magical 'interface designers' who you just ask to give you 
> the perfect UI that *everyone* immediately understands and knows how to use 
> and works exactly how each individual wants it to work ;)
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 

Yes, we would prefer those magical interface designers whenever they are 
available. If not, we will accept the interface designers who are able to speak 
the lingo of grumpy software engineers, and who can facilitate fruitful 
discussions that may lead to an optimal amalgamation of UI/UE and awesome code. 
But magical would be better off course. ;)

Regards
Tore


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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[RM]

I designed an interface for my Devawriter Pro [ go and have a look at 
it: http://andregarzia.on-rev.com/richmond/dwriterpro.html ].


Frankly I am well aware it is horrible because it is cluttered to blazes 
with all sorts of fancy features

I built into the thing along the way.

It is meant to be the "B-and-end-all" of Devanagari text entry: were I 
to dumb the thing down it

would be . . . well . . . DUMB.

So here's Richmond's "9 shilling note" on interface design:

1. You'll never keep everybody happy.

2. You'll always have a fight between what to include and what to exclude.

3. Which is more important? Functionality or Appearance?

4. Every single thing that has ever been invented involves a learning 
curve; be it a frying pan

or Livecode.

5.  People who expect to open a box and get something that "just works" 
are naive in their

expectations and should not be pandered to.

6. Certainly in my experience with Primary school children they lose 
interest very quickly indeed in

a program that is moronic and does not involve some cognitive effort.

---

Livecode's interface as of version 7 is significantly easier to use than 
Runtime Revolution 1.1.1,
and Livecode 8's interface will take a bit of getting used to 
(especially the new properties palette),
but is NOT insurmountable, and is NOT daft, and after a wee while is 
perfectly usable.


Anyone who feels "lumpy" about Livecode's interface should take a look 
at Hypercard's, Metacard's and RunRev 1. AND that list doesn't even 
mention Visual Basic . . . or, for that matter, all those programming 
languages one writes in a text editor with NO interface whatsoever.


--

My first reaction when I saw Livecode/RunRev 1.1 was a long sigh of 
relief after having wrestled with
Toolbook and Director. Any rude noises I have made about the interface 
subsequently are minor by comparison; and, as I have demonstrated time 
and time again, mucking around with the Livecode interface to get 
something more to one's taste is really comparatively easy.


Richmond.

On 2.03.2016 10:39, Mark Waddingham wrote:

On 2016-03-02 06:46, J. Landman Gay wrote:

I confess my first reaction was that LC needs an interface designer.


Ah - yes - those magical 'interface designers' who you just ask to 
give you the perfect UI that *everyone* immediately understands and 
knows how to use and works exactly how each individual wants it to 
work ;)


Warmest Regards,

Mark.




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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-03-02 06:46, J. Landman Gay wrote:

I confess my first reaction was that LC needs an interface designer.


Ah - yes - those magical 'interface designers' who you just ask to give 
you the perfect UI that *everyone* immediately understands and knows how 
to use and works exactly how each individual wants it to work ;)


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter TB Brett]

On 02/03/2016 00:08, J. Landman Gay wrote:

In the Project Browser, the dotted selections are the objects selected
on the card. You can't alter dotted-line selections from within the PB,
you need to open the property inspector for that.


You can double click on an item in the Project Browser to select it on 
the card.


  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/1/2016 8:32 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 03/01/2016 04:08 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 3/1/2016 5:23 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:

Don't use the Project Browser so can't comment on the second issue


It's confusing, Ali had to explain it to me. I still mostly use the App
Browser because I need the column layout.

In the Project Browser, the dotted selections are the objects selected
on the card. You can't alter dotted-line selections from within the PB,
you need to open the property inspector for that.

The hilited lines are selections you've made directly in the PB. The
icons at the bottom act on those only. So you can click the icons at the
bottom to manage the PB-selections (the hilited lines) to resize or
align. The card-selected objects (dotted lines) won't change. If you
want the card selections to be acted on, you need to manually re-select
them in the PB so their lines are hilited as well as dotted.

The idea was to be able to select things in the PB that may not be in
view, even on totally different cards or stacks, and be able to work
with them without going there. Hilited lines indicate which objects will
be affected. This could be useful. On the other hand, there is now a
disconnect between visible selections on a card and objects you can act
on within the PB.

Selections also act slightly differently in the Property Inspector. It
used to be you could shift-click several objects and then double-click
any one of them to open the multi-object inspector. That doesn't work
now. Instead you double-click one object on the card to open its
inspector and then shift-click objects to add more. That causes the
alignment icon to appear at the top left of the inspector, and the other
icons will operate on all the selected objects.



I may have to print that out and hang it on the wall.
Wow - the IDE used to be somewhat intuitive.



I confess my first reaction was that LC needs an interface designer.

But once it was explained to me, I understood the problem: how to allow 
the PB to act on objects that are not on the current card, while still 
representing the selected objects that are.


Part of me thinks the dotted lines and the selected lines are backwards; 
dotted suggests inactive, and the objects on the card are actively 
selected. There's 15 years of IDE history that enforces the idea that 
selected card objects should be hilited in the PB. But...the objects 
that will be acted on by the PB are also "active" in a different sense; 
they are the ones that the PB will change. So I flip-flop. I'm not sure 
how it should work.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Mark Wieder]

On 03/01/2016 04:08 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 3/1/2016 5:23 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:

Don't use the Project Browser so can't comment on the second issue


It's confusing, Ali had to explain it to me. I still mostly use the App
Browser because I need the column layout.

In the Project Browser, the dotted selections are the objects selected
on the card. You can't alter dotted-line selections from within the PB,
you need to open the property inspector for that.

The hilited lines are selections you've made directly in the PB. The
icons at the bottom act on those only. So you can click the icons at the
bottom to manage the PB-selections (the hilited lines) to resize or
align. The card-selected objects (dotted lines) won't change. If you
want the card selections to be acted on, you need to manually re-select
them in the PB so their lines are hilited as well as dotted.

The idea was to be able to select things in the PB that may not be in
view, even on totally different cards or stacks, and be able to work
with them without going there. Hilited lines indicate which objects will
be affected. This could be useful. On the other hand, there is now a
disconnect between visible selections on a card and objects you can act
on within the PB.

Selections also act slightly differently in the Property Inspector. It
used to be you could shift-click several objects and then double-click
any one of them to open the multi-object inspector. That doesn't work
now. Instead you double-click one object on the card to open its
inspector and then shift-click objects to add more. That causes the
alignment icon to appear at the top left of the inspector, and the other
icons will operate on all the selected objects.



I may have to print that out and hang it on the wall.
Wow - the IDE used to be somewhat intuitive.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[J. Landman Gay]

On 3/1/2016 5:23 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:

Don't use the Project Browser so can't comment on the second issue


It's confusing, Ali had to explain it to me. I still mostly use the App 
Browser because I need the column layout.


In the Project Browser, the dotted selections are the objects selected 
on the card. You can't alter dotted-line selections from within the PB, 
you need to open the property inspector for that.


The hilited lines are selections you've made directly in the PB. The 
icons at the bottom act on those only. So you can click the icons at the 
bottom to manage the PB-selections (the hilited lines) to resize or 
align. The card-selected objects (dotted lines) won't change. If you 
want the card selections to be acted on, you need to manually re-select 
them in the PB so their lines are hilited as well as dotted.


The idea was to be able to select things in the PB that may not be in 
view, even on totally different cards or stacks, and be able to work 
with them without going there. Hilited lines indicate which objects will 
be affected. This could be useful. On the other hand, there is now a 
disconnect between visible selections on a card and objects you can act 
on within the PB.


Selections also act slightly differently in the Property Inspector. It 
used to be you could shift-click several objects and then double-click 
any one of them to open the multi-object inspector. That doesn't work 
now. Instead you double-click one object on the card to open its 
inspector and then shift-click objects to add more. That causes the 
alignment icon to appear at the top left of the inspector, and the other 
icons will operate on all the selected objects.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[William Prothero]

Tnx Peter: It’s indeed a feature! Thanks. 

Best,
Bill

> On Mar 1, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 01/03/2016 22:28, William Prothero wrote:
> 
>> The first thing I’ve noticed is that selecting objects in the Project
>> Browser and stack window is poor. In 7.1 versions and older, when I
>> clicked on an object on the stack window, it would hilite the
>> corresponding entry on the project browser. First off, I find that
>> clicking on different objects in the stack screen, it often refuses
>> to “select” a new object until I click around. Secondly, when I click
>> on an object on the stack window, it should hilite in the project
>> browser. This is very convenient when developing, and it doesn’t seem
>> to happen in LC8.
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> Selected objects are now shown in the Project Browser with a highlighted 
> border.  You can "zoom to" an object by right-clicking on it (on the stack) 
> and selecting "Show in Project Browser".  This was an intentional change to 
> make it slightly easier to not "lose your place" in the Project Browser view 
> when you change the selected object in a stack with lots of controls.
> 
> I think I remember seeing a bug relating to selecting things, but I can't 
> find it right now... please go ahead and file a bug report if you can 
> reliably reproduce the problem.
> 
>> So, I’m still on LC8, but the IDE, nice and shiny new as it is, still
>> needs some work. Or, perhaps I just haven’t figured out all of its
>> new options yet.
> 
> Feedback is always appreciated.  Currently I'm finding that the LiveCode 8 
> IDE is actually a big improvement over the LiveCode 7 one for the things that 
> I use it for (but I'm aware that I'm a *very* atypical user!)
> 
> Peter
> 
> -- 
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Open Source Team
> 
> LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
> 
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter Haworth]

I've also noticed the first issue you mentioned.  In my case, it's not so
much that clicking an object doesn't select but trying to grab the handles
to resize an object has to be very accurate or the object is deselected.  I
guess I should enter a QCC report.

Don't use the Project Browser so can't comment on the second issue

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:40 PM Peter TB Brett 
wrote:

>
>
> On 01/03/2016 22:28, William Prothero wrote:
>
> > The first thing I’ve noticed is that selecting objects in the Project
> > Browser and stack window is poor. In 7.1 versions and older, when I
> > clicked on an object on the stack window, it would hilite the
> > corresponding entry on the project browser. First off, I find that
> > clicking on different objects in the stack screen, it often refuses
> > to “select” a new object until I click around. Secondly, when I click
> > on an object on the stack window, it should hilite in the project
> > browser. This is very convenient when developing, and it doesn’t seem
> > to happen in LC8.
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> Selected objects are now shown in the Project Browser with a highlighted
> border.  You can "zoom to" an object by right-clicking on it (on the
> stack) and selecting "Show in Project Browser".  This was an intentional
> change to make it slightly easier to not "lose your place" in the
> Project Browser view when you change the selected object in a stack with
> lots of controls.
>
> I think I remember seeing a bug relating to selecting things, but I
> can't find it right now... please go ahead and file a bug report if you
> can reliably reproduce the problem.
>
> > So, I’m still on LC8, but the IDE, nice and shiny new as it is, still
> > needs some work. Or, perhaps I just haven’t figured out all of its
> > new options yet.
>
> Feedback is always appreciated.  Currently I'm finding that the LiveCode
> 8 IDE is actually a big improvement over the LiveCode 7 one for the
> things that I use it for (but I'm aware that I'm a *very* atypical user!)
>
>   Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Open Source Team
>
> LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: LC8DP15 feedback-IDE Issues

[Peter TB Brett]

On 01/03/2016 22:28, William Prothero wrote:


The first thing I’ve noticed is that selecting objects in the Project
Browser and stack window is poor. In 7.1 versions and older, when I
clicked on an object on the stack window, it would hilite the
corresponding entry on the project browser. First off, I find that
clicking on different objects in the stack screen, it often refuses
to “select” a new object until I click around. Secondly, when I click
on an object on the stack window, it should hilite in the project
browser. This is very convenient when developing, and it doesn’t seem
to happen in LC8.


Hi Bill,

Selected objects are now shown in the Project Browser with a highlighted 
border.  You can "zoom to" an object by right-clicking on it (on the 
stack) and selecting "Show in Project Browser".  This was an intentional 
change to make it slightly easier to not "lose your place" in the 
Project Browser view when you change the selected object in a stack with 
lots of controls.


I think I remember seeing a bug relating to selecting things, but I 
can't find it right now... please go ahead and file a bug report if you 
can reliably reproduce the problem.



So, I’m still on LC8, but the IDE, nice and shiny new as it is, still
needs some work. Or, perhaps I just haven’t figured out all of its
new options yet.


Feedback is always appreciated.  Currently I'm finding that the LiveCode 
8 IDE is actually a big improvement over the LiveCode 7 one for the 
things that I use it for (but I'm aware that I'm a *very* atypical user!)


 Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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