version control system (was mission critical apps)

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 6:05 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Brian's never seen Chipp's versioning auto-saver?
Chipp's revArchive stack is a smart version of File menu | Save As. 
Better than nothing, but it is definitely not a VC system.

What can't be hooked ? It's all exposed.
The Linux kernel is completely exposed too. Does that mean I want to go 
rewriting device drivers? No. (Admittedly there is a greater 
possibility of me ever understanding the runrev IDE than some Linux 
kernel code)

I wrote a runrev plugin for using an external script editor. I had to 
do some weird stuff to get it to work, and I'm still clueless what some 
of the messages I'm handling are actually are intended to do in the 
IDE. It was a lot of guesswork.

Writing a version control plugin would be much tougher - and probably 
can't be done with only the Plugin API.

Every time I start looking inside the Runrev IDE, I get this uneasy 
feeling. The best I can describe it is like coming to a a door that's 
closed, but not locked. You peek inside but you aren't sure whether you 
really belong in there.

- background groups - are they placed or not placed? How many cards 
are
they placed on? I found trying to envision a stack as a filesystem
hierarchy then background groups get confusing.
Then find another mental model. :)
If one were using a filesystem representation, then it's probably an 
external requirement (i.e. not self-imposed) because the connected VC 
system uses a filesystem. A VC being for example Subversion, the newer 
CVS like system. Most VC systems are based on files and filesystems.

But in a 100% transcript model then you could throw out the filesystem 
representation then I'm sure background groups would be easier to deal 
with.

But shared backgrounds are useful objects, so there must be some way 
to map
it into a database and it seem worth doing.
Definitely

A number of others here have expressed a similar interest. If an open 
source
team was established to create such a system it may attract all the
resources needed to do a good job and have fun doing it.
Aye.

--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
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RE: crash rash

[Friedrich F. Grohmann]

Chipp,  

 Thanks for your suggestion which made me aware of a possible source 
of my troubles. I tried it yet, alas, it doesn't work in my case. Somehow 
I have to assume that Rev is having serious problems with Chinese. I had 
situations were I changed the font size in a field and then "undo" -the 
application quits; add a character in a field or select the text from a 
certain point to the end and try to cut it -I had to fore quit; etc. etc. 
 Fortunately, one begins to gain painful experiences. It seems, for 
example, that one has to add a hard break within the text before the 
point up to which one wants to delete text in order to avoid crashes...

 But then, things are happening not necessarily in perfectly regular 
manner and not every crash case can be traced back to Chinese text in 
fields only. Let's say I open Rev, go to my file via the menu, save as 
and then touch the menubar -unexpected quit. What I am forced to do now 
is to copy the file in the folder and then rename it before opening it. 
At least it will save me the troubles of quitting or force quitting but I 
can hardly imagine that this is the way Rev is supposed to function.

Fritz


>Subject: RE: crash rash
>Date:8.2.2004 13:01 Uhr
>Received:8.2.2004 15:24 Uhr
>From:Chipp Walters, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Fritz,
>
>try in the msg:
>
>set the breakpoints to empty
>
>and see if it doens't fix your problem. I had a similar problem on XP and
>traced it to the above.
>
>-Chipp
>
>> -Original Message-
>> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:57 PM
>> To: How to use Revolution
>> Subject: crash rash
>>
>>
>> I am working with Rev 2.1.2 on a PowerPC G4 with OS 10.3.2 . Recently,
>> Rev has been crashing with great regularity. After saving and closing the
>> application I am developing, a mere touch at the menubar will, before I
>> can pull down any menu, lead either to an "unexpected" quit or the
>> rainbow wheel.
>>
>> Rev crashed the first time when Chinese text in fields went berserk.
>> Though it  seems I've managed to circumvent similar episodes by now, the
>> present frequency  of crashes makes me wonder whether nothing more
>> fundamental is going wrong. Any help appreciated.
>>
>> Fritz
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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Mark Wieder]

As Dar points out here, the "=" operator can easily be overloaded. The
reason that C implements the "==" operator for comparisons is because
C also lets you do something pretty screwy with assignments:

if (c==12) is a comparison between c and 12
if (c=12) assigns 12 to c and then takes the result of the assignment

When C programmers really want to get obscure they will code something
like

if (c = getvalue() == getstring())

As long as this syntax isn't allowed in Transcript, then there
shouldn't be a problem with supporting both

put 12 into c
and
c = 12

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[David Vaughan]

On 10/02/2004, at 14:13, Dar Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Maybe this applies to the old single character not-equals, which I 
think is still allowed in Revolution.
It is allowed on Mac but if you write that code it will fail when you 
try to distribute to Win, as I discovered. The distribution is 
apparently built successfully but the code does not work. I used to 
think ≠ [that was the mac single-character not-equals for other users] 
was cute but now I write only "<>".

regards
David
Dar Scott
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Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Christopher Mitchell]

That seems to have been the attitude starting day one of my first uni 
CS class, and among all the self-taught programmers of a variety of 
that paradigm language.

The argument is, from my best friend the Java and Flash programmer "but 
I could do that in Java" or "That would look better in Flash."

I usually respond to him that I'm cat'ing all the contents of The 
Matrix DVD out to my printer and will mail it to him.  Once he types it 
all in, I hope he enjoys the movie.

I have heard from him and others time and time again "but I can do that 
in [X]" ... He goes to great lengths to learn the newer (much better 
looking) gui toolkits for Java and then he figures since he knows how 
to do it, he doesn't need to look at any other option for making the 
GUI by an easier method.  (one that may have been available in the 
first place).

I am like this too, sometimes, though.  we all are.  Often if I know 
only one way to get somewhere, I will drive that way every time.  
Someone else might know a way that cuts out 10 miles of driving, but 
I'm already comfortable with "my way."  it is for this reason that I 
would stand behind the argument that changing the xTalk/Transcript 
syntax to make it more feasible to C-paradigm programmers is 
inappropriate.  Having Rev installed on my powerbook does not erase GCC 
should I be so inclined...

Yours,
Chris
On Feb 9, 2004, at 8:02 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:


If memory serves, none of these "standard" statements would pass a 
FORTRAN, COBOL, PL/1, Pascal, or Modula compiler or a BASIC 
interpreter.

Must C syntax prevail for a language to be non-"beginner-ish"?
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Re: Transcript and/or ECMA

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 08:13 PM, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:

May not be as easy as it looks, because AppleScript, Javascript, 
Frontier, etc. are provided on the Mac by hooking into Apple's Open 
Scripting Architecture. I don't think there's a similar system service 
on the other platforms.
Anybody know if WSH (Windows Scripting Host) is a similar system 
service?

Dar Scott

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Re: DragDrop a ".textClipping"?

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 7:40 PM -0700 2/9/04, Barry Levine wrote:
Anyone have an idea how to "drag&drop" a textClipping into a Rev 
stack? I've been playing with Klaus Major's example (Thank you, 
Klaus!) and have seen how jpg, txt, rtf, etc. can be dropped into 
the appropriate field or image. The text clipping seems to be 
ignored. Any guidance will be appreciated.
It looks like the text in a text clipping is stored in a resource, so 
you'll need to use the getResource function to pull it out.
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Transcript and/or ECMA

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 9:19 AM -0500 2/9/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This brings an idea to mind... If we can "do fld 1 as AppleScript", can we
not "do fld 2 as JavaScript"? It looks like even if it does work, it is
only available to Mac users (according to the documentation for the do
command, regarding alternate languages). This would be great if it were
expanded to include all platforms.
May not be as easy as it looks, because AppleScript, Javascript, 
Frontier, etc. are provided on the Mac by hooking into Apple's Open 
Scripting Architecture. I don't think there's a similar system 
service on the other platforms.
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 2:36 PM -0600 2/9/04, Marty Billingsley wrote:
Another example of the added difficulty: we do a project that
incorporates music (we create an electronic keyboard) using Shakobox.
The students have to explicitly start the stack using Shakobox and
also include an applescript which quits an external application when
they close the stack.  I'd like to hide this detail from my students;
right now I put a stack in a central location that they can copy
from; the stack has the scripts necessary to make Shakobox work, but
nothing else.  Having the Home stack back would be great; is there
some way to mimic that in Rev?
I'd use plugins for this. You can load a plugin automatically on 
startup and have its openStack script put the stack script in use - 
that's what I'd do.
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: command-2 (previous) and command-3 (next), jumping by 2

[Christopher Mitchell]

Could you point the way to this script for someone who couldn't 
transcript his way out of a wet paper bag (yet)?  I've certainly not 
looked into making editions in the IDE scripts, but if someone else 
debugs this and can kick back a recipe I have no problem following the 
directions.  I can't even look at Rev the next week and a half though 
thanks to a disease called end of quarter research papers and 
presentations.

Yours,
Chris
On Feb 9, 2004, at 7:41 AM, Robert Brenstein wrote:
On Feb 7, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:

Increasing the delay might work, as a workaround.
Oh god. Is this an engine bug or an IDE bug?  Surely "go next" isn't 
broken?
cmd-3 etc used to be in a frontscript of IDE (commandkeydown handler 
if I recall). I haven't looked at the current implementation in Rev 
but probably it is still the same. My guess is that there is a glitch 
and the front script handler is called twice but the issue may be 
elsewhere. This should be easy to verify by replacing the current 
frontscript with a debug version.

Robert
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DragDrop a ".textClipping"?

[Barry Levine]

Anyone have an idea how to "drag&drop" a textClipping into a Rev stack? 
I've been playing with Klaus Major's example (Thank you, Klaus!) and 
have seen how jpg, txt, rtf, etc. can be dropped into the appropriate 
field or image. The text clipping seems to be ignored. Any guidance 
will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Barry
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Application Browse questions

[Marian Petrides]

I realize that the Application Browser and Properties displays have 
been streamlined in v 2.1.x  but now I can't find an easy way to do 
some things that were simple in 1.1.1.

Most important is being able to see the location and rectangle of  a 
stack easily.  In 1.1.1 I merely had to double click on the object and 
the properties window had a drop-down which showed both location and 
rectangle.  In 2.1.2, the main properties (basic properties) display 
doesn't have a similar quickie dropdown. If I use the dropdown menu at 
the top and select size & position, I can't display either loc or rect 
for the stack  although I CAN get rectangle for other objects like 
buttons.

Is there a quick way of getting location and rectangle for a stack in 
2.1.2? Or do I must I do it as a script:  put the rect of this stack  ?

Thanks.

Marian

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[tuviah snyder]

>And my bet still stands -- I'm willing to bet $20 that the code to
>parse "x = 1" is already in place, but commented out in the RR engine
>for historical reasons.
You can email me offlist to arrange payment:-)

The problem with x = 1, is that it breaks a main rule in xtalk in that every
statement starts with a command/verb (GET,SET,PUT).

Tuviah

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[tuviah snyder]

>(And BTW, if you've ever written a parser you know that
>adding support for this is trivial, and it will have zero impact on
>runtime performance.)
Then why not support JavaScript as an additional syntax to XTalk, at least
that way it will be consistant. It's not all that difficult either
http://www.mozilla.org/js/spidermonkey/

OSA supports multiple languages, so does .NET, and HyperCard used to support
Applescript. It is the framework, the easy way that you can write an app in
a few minutes with a familier easy to use visual object model that matters
like Doug said.

These languages are just tools and some people find some tools easier than
others. Personally I would rather support JavaScript and call it JavaScript
then impact the readability of the XTalk language for others. AFAIK
Macromedia didn't scrap lingo but added support for Javascript.

There are many things that can be added to improve the transcript language
and I'm all for it but prefer to discuss on the improve-list or a list set
up like the old XTalk list.

Tuviah

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 06:08 PM, Frank Leahy wrote:

I said ADD support for "x = 1" as AN ALTERNATIVE to "put" -- you get 
to decide which you use.
Rats, I'm dragging this on after Frank is trying to bow out.

One of the problems with an alternative is that those reading the 
script do not have the alternative.

If my keyboard could handle it well, I'd rather use math notation much 
like ^ and v for 'and' and 'or'.  And despite my claims that it is 
"standard" math, others might think them pretentious or techy or adding 
complication to the language.

My comment is not so much aimed at Frank's ideas; he is bowing out.  It 
is that the discussion has put some of my thinking in another light.

Maybe this applies to the old single character not-equals, which I 
think is still allowed in Revolution.

Dar Scott

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Doug Lerner]

On 2/10/04 10:20 AM, "Dar Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 06:08 PM, Doug Lerner wrote:
> 
>> thatStack.thisCard.button:thisButton.hilite = true
> 
> Most of my object names are multiple words.  Would that be handled like
> this?
> 
> stack:"Blueberry Martians".card:"Surface
> Ambulance".button:"Simulate Roll".hilite = true
> 
> Could something like this be done?
> 
> stack:getBestStack().card:savedCard().button:1.hilite = true

It's looking more complicated than the current transcript method. :)

doug

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 06:33 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Frank Leahy wrote:

And my bet still stands -- I'm willing to bet $20 that the code to
parse "x = 1" is already in place, but commented out in the RR engine
for historical reasons.
You may have just lost $20: "=" is already an operator in Transcript 
(used
as in Pascal, for comparison).

When cavemen first invented programming languages, the big moment of 
d'oh!
was after they'd proudly implemted "=" as an assignment operator only 
to
realize they'd forgotten comparison.
But to be fair, as pointed out, the = can be overloaded here.

In C every statement is an expression, so there is a problem, but in 
context in some similar language, = can mean two things.

Dar Scott

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[tuviah snyder]

>If Transcript were to look just like C et al, what would be its
>comparative advantage??
>Show of hands:  Who wants Rev to be as user-friendly as C?
maybe this is what they were looking for http://www.softintegration.com/

Tuviah

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Re: REV and multimedia

[michael]

http://videolan.org/vlc/
An Alternative- VideoLan plays everything and is 
open-source/cross-platform (including linux).
It is about 9mb. 
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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Richard Gaskin]

Frank Leahy wrote:

> And my bet still stands -- I'm willing to bet $20 that the code to
> parse "x = 1" is already in place, but commented out in the RR engine
> for historical reasons.

You may have just lost $20: "=" is already an operator in Transcript (used
as in Pascal, for comparison).

When cavemen first invented programming languages, the big moment of d'oh!
was after they'd proudly implemted "=" as an assignment operator only to
realize they'd forgotten comparison.  Rather than check their premise, they
went the other direction and required two characters, since all the cool
single-character operators had been used.   So now "equals" means "put" and
"put put" means "equals".

:)

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 06:08 PM, Doug Lerner wrote:

thatStack.thisCard.button:thisButton.hilite = true
Most of my object names are multiple words.  Would that be handled like 
this?

 stack:"Blueberry Martians".card:"Surface 
Ambulance".button:"Simulate Roll".hilite = true

Could something like this be done?

 stack:getBestStack().card:savedCard().button:1.hilite = true

Dar Scott

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Richard Gaskin]

Judy Perry wrote:

> As I've spent a good chunk of time reading some of these, it would seem
> that novice programmers try to 'memorize' indeed, but lack comprehension
> as traditional programming languages involve using the 'black box' model
> of a computer, whereas scripting languages, code reuse and the like
> support actual comprehension because the computer is now a 'clear box' in
> which the programmer's actions are translated into concrete and
> comprehensible outcomes.  This assists transfer.
> 
> Expert programmers engage in pattern-recognition in that they do not need
> to study each line of code and understand it sequentially in debugging but
> rather look for a predictable pattern that is either present or absent and
> which jumps out at them.
> 
> I can supply references if anyone's interested...
> 
> Judy

That was a way cool post.  Yes, links please.  Sounds like good reading.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Doug Lerner]

On 2/10/04 9:52 AM, "Dar Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 05:43 PM, Doug Lerner wrote:
> 
>> thisStudent.age + thatStudent.age
> 
> thisStudent["age"] + thatStudent["age"]
> 
> ...is admittedly 6 characters over yours.

Yes, associative arrays are essentially properties. In JavaScript you could
actually write it either way. Usually the way you wrote it would be used if
the property name itself were a dynamic value.

But what about a similar notation for

set the hilite of button "thisButton" of card "thisCard" of stack
"thatStack" to true

Something like

thatStack.thisCard.button:thisButton.hilite = true

might be convenient...

doug

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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Frank Leahy]

On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 12:31  AM, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Frank Leahy wrote:
Disagreeing right back at you.  If you want professionals to use Rev,
then you need standard assignment statement syntax -- without them
Revolution looks like a hobbyist language rather than a real working
language ("oh, it's just HyperTalk, and we all know that wasn't a
'real' language/development environment")  And since it's perfectly
possible to support "x = 1" without affecting the current "put" and
"set" statements, I would argue that they should consider adding it.
If Transcript were to look just like C et al, what would be its
comparative advantage??
Show of hands:  Who wants Rev to be as user-friendly as C?

Judy
Judy,

You are about the 15th person who didn't read what I wrote (I'm picking 
on you because your message is so short and succinct, thanks).

I suggested ADDING an assignment operator syntax that is commonly used 
in essentially every other modern computer language, and that has its 
basis in mathematical notation.  I didn't say GET RID OF the current 
"put" syntax or GET RID OF any other xTalk construct -- I said ADD 
support for "x = 1" as AN ALTERNATIVE to "put" -- you get to decide 
which you use.  (And BTW, if you've ever written a parser you know that 
adding support for this is trivial, and it will have zero impact on 
runtime performance.)

Now, for those who have forgotten why I suggested this in the first 
place, it was in response to comments about how professional or 
un-professional RR appears to those taking a look at it for the first 
time.  Having "put" as the sole assignment syntax means, IMHO, that 
people looking at RR think it's more like HyperCard than less like 
HyperCard, when in fact it's a lot less like HyperCard.

There is one other good reason why this syntax should be supported, 
because it's a really big pain in the a-- to port algorithms written in 
other languages to RR.  I'm porting some code that parses the JPEG EXIF 
header, and I have to rewrite every frickin' statement from "x += y + 
2" to "put x + y + 2 into x".

But let's stop this discussion, ok?  No one from RR has piped up to 
suggest that they're even considering such a change, so the discussion 
is moot.

And my bet still stands -- I'm willing to bet $20 that the code to 
parse "x = 1" is already in place, but commented out in the RR engine 
for historical reasons.

-- Frank

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Re: mission critical apps

[Richard Gaskin]

Alex Rice wrote:

>> What specifically is needed, and what are the challenges of building
>> it?
...
> Brian:
> Developers that use CVS, Subversion etc. often use it on solo projects
> as well! It's very empowering to be able to "turn back the clock" on
> all or part of your code. IBM Visual Age for Java which has a
> "repository" where project code could be freeze-dried, versioned, and
> saved for later use or inspection. Good stuff, even working solo.

Brian's never seen Chipp's versioning auto-saver?

> Richard:
> If there were a version-control plugin for runrevI would surely be a
> customer! I believe some ideas have been kicked around on-list for
> mapping Rev stacks into a version control system. Some hurdles one
> would be looking at are:
> 
> - lack of specific hooks in IDE for controlling the script editor, the
> application browser, and property inspector.

What can't be hooked ? It's all exposed.  It can be useful to automate code
changes so you can maintain an updater utility to run those after
downloading a fresh Rev.  I used to do some of this in a utility called
"FixMC" which wormed its way through portions of the IDE to touch up some
appearance and behavior issues.

Once you've idntified the specific hooks you need and how they should work I
imagine RunRev would jump at the chance to put those hooks directly in the
product.

> - background groups - are they placed or not placed? How many cards are
> they placed on? I found trying to envision a stack as a filesystem
> hierarchy then background groups get confusing.

Then find another mental model. :)

Seriously, this comes up in HyperRESEARCH all the time. Some concepts defy
tradtional hierachies.

But shared backgrounds are useful objects, so there must be some way to map
it into a database and it seem worth doing.


> - proprietary binary stack format - depending on perspective it may be
> a non-issue because we need to have version control from within the IDE
> not from the filesystem.

Proprieary schmoprietary. :)  Everything can be atomized, disassembled,
reassembled at will.  Design how you want it to work and there are plenty of
people who can help figure out the implementation.

Running in the IDE yes, but it needn't reside in the IDE stackfiles. It
could be done as a plugin.

The IDE is exposed, so in the rare cases where you might want to modify it
you could.  But you could probably do all you need from a plugin with just
backscripts and frontscripts without requiring direct modification.

Then again, if you come up with a good system that could be even better if
more deeply integrated in the IDE I can't imagine the folks at RunRev
turning you down.

My point is that it's all quite doable.  It should be possible to come up
with a useful collaborative system for general development in less time than
you'd save working with it.

A number of others here have expressed a similar interest. If an open source
team was established to create such a system it may attract all the
resources needed to do a good job and have fun doing it.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
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Re: mission critical apps

[Brian Yennie]

Absolutely! I'm using it right now in a team of two... and I'd keep it 
if one left =).
It of course also makes easy work of nightly builds, branches, 
versioning, etc.

Developers that use CVS, Subversion etc. often use it on solo projects 
as well! It's very empowering to be able to "turn back the clock" on  
all or part of your code. IBM Visual Age for Java which has a 
"repository" where project code could be freeze-dried, versioned, and 
saved for later use or inspection. Good stuff, even working solo.
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Re: mission critical apps

[Brian Yennie]

Others may describe this better than me, but essentially CVS is 
accustomed to individual text (= code) files organized into 
directories. Although it supports binary files, it just basically 
stores them as-is and doesn't try to reconcile.

This is what I would suggest:

1) Write an exporter for MetaCard stacks which imports/exports 
individual scripts into folders, i.e.

stack/
stackscript.mt
card/
mycardscript.mt
object/
myobjectscript.mt
CVS lets you operate (i.e. checkin, checkout, update, add, remove) on a 
file-by-file or folder-by-folder basis, so this would buy the layout it 
wants.

2) Extend it to export textual representations for each object.
stack/
stackscript.mt
stack.props
mycard/
mycardscript.mt
mycard.props
object/
myobjectscript.mt
3) Write a Rev GUI on top of the import/export which allows you to:
a) Create a new CVS repository
b) Do an initial checkout of the contents of a repository
c) Update your stack from the contents of the repository
d) Check-in your edited and/or new objects to the repository
Those really are the basics. CVS isn't all that complicated. It mostly 
makes you go through the process- keep a central repository, checkout 
components to work on, check them in when they work (so you don't screw 
other people up with your changes).

To the Rev user, it would mean that they could open up Rev, connect to 
a shared repository, check out say, the stack script, work on it, and 
then commit their changes. Some other developer could be working at the 
same time on, say, some button's script. Another might be tweaking the 
locations of objects and adding graphics. When they are all done, they 
check-in. Next time they update from the repository, they see everyone 
else's changes _if_ they've been checked in. One person could check out 
a bunch of button scripts while another checked out their properties. 
Etc.

Conflicts in CVS aren't as magical as we would like, but it will at 
least alert you when you step on someone else's toes, and even try to 
resolve the conflicts on a line-by-line basis for your non-binary files.

All in all, it would be more grunt work than anything. CVS command-line 
tools are available on all major platforms (and some minor ones), so it 
could all be manipulated via shell().

- Brian

Rev objects can be atomized down to individual properties and scripts, 
and
reassembled again in nearly infinite variety.

What specifically is needed, and what are the challenges of building 
it?
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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Judy Perry]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Frank Leahy wrote:
>
> Disagreeing right back at you.  If you want professionals to use Rev,
> then you need standard assignment statement syntax -- without them
> Revolution looks like a hobbyist language rather than a real working
> language ("oh, it's just HyperTalk, and we all know that wasn't a
> 'real' language/development environment")  And since it's perfectly
> possible to support "x = 1" without affecting the current "put" and
> "set" statements, I would argue that they should consider adding it.

If Transcript were to look just like C et al, what would be its
comparative advantage??

Show of hands:  Who wants Rev to be as user-friendly as C?

Judy

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Re: mission critical apps

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
Rev objects can be atomized down to individual properties and scripts, 
and
reassembled again in nearly infinite variety.

What specifically is needed, and what are the challenges of building 
it?
David:
Not sure but I think Chipp last brought up the issue of multi-developer 
support. I guess as more people write business apps with Runrev, 
multi-developer support will be requested more.

Brian:
Developers that use CVS, Subversion etc. often use it on solo projects 
as well! It's very empowering to be able to "turn back the clock" on  
all or part of your code. IBM Visual Age for Java which has a 
"repository" where project code could be freeze-dried, versioned, and 
saved for later use or inspection. Good stuff, even working solo.

Richard:
If there were a version-control plugin for runrevI would surely be a 
customer! I believe some ideas have been kicked around on-list for 
mapping Rev stacks into a version control system. Some hurdles one 
would be looking at are:

- lack of specific hooks in IDE for controlling the script editor, the 
application browser, and property inspector.

- background groups - are they placed or not placed? How many cards are 
they placed on? I found trying to envision a stack as a filesystem 
hierarchy then background groups get confusing.

- proprietary binary stack format - depending on perspective it may be 
a non-issue because we need to have version control from within the IDE 
not from the filesystem.

--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
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Re: mission critical apps

[Richard Gaskin]

Brian Yennie wrote:

> I have no idea how I would function on a team xTalk project. Previous
> threads here have discussed CVS, bug tracking, group projects... and as
> far as I can tell all of those things are non-existent. They all make
> my life many times easier when working in PHP or C, or a host of other
> languages.

Rev objects can be atomized down to individual properties and scripts, and
reassembled again in nearly infinite variety.

What specifically is needed, and what are the challenges of building it?

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
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Re: ftp commands that RR sends and receives?

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 04:33 PM, Frank Leahy wrote:

Is it possible to view a transcript of the commands that RR sends and 
receives when I use the various ftp upload and ftp download functions?
I use Ethereal for all (good) kinds of things.

Dar Scott

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Re: REV and multimedia

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 4:42 PM, erik hansen wrote:

i couldn't find the PRICE for the download.
Quicktime player is free that's all you need to play quicktime media. 
(but Apple is always trying to sell you Quicktime PRO which is ~ $30)
--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com

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Re: mission critical apps

[Richard Gaskin]

> - Rev lacks the inherent or external tools to support large team
> development.

The absence of a utility or language feature does not preclude the
possibility of its existence.

Shall we complain, or design?

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: mission critical apps

[Brian Yennie]

David,

I am not certain that the second point (as I have interpreted him) is 
true in the sense that it can not be dealt with in tool design or code 
management but the first alone is sufficient to wipe Rev out of large 
scale application development anyway.
I think you nailed it here. Disclaimer: xTalk was my first programming 
language and is still my "favorite". My primary job right now is on a 
small team PHP project.

I have no idea how I would function on a team xTalk project. Previous 
threads here have discussed CVS, bug tracking, group projects... and as 
far as I can tell all of those things are non-existent. They all make 
my life many times easier when working in PHP or C, or a host of other 
languages.

With that said, I've never seen a RAD tool that is also ideal for large 
team projects. I don't think of it as a flaw, but rather part of being 
a RAD tool. Rev *could* integrate with CVS, but with a great deal of 
effort. Extensions could be written to guarantee delivery of messages 
(what about just one big backscript that catches every message, and if 
it does, knows that it never got caught along the path?). Etc. But I 
don't know if any of this would be such a good thing. Revolution is 
already a cross-platform swiss army knife... would we _want_ it to be a 
swiss army tank?

- Brian

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Re: ftp commands that RR sends and receives?

[Sarah Reichelt]

The "libURLSetLogField" command allows you to specify a field which 
then gets filled with all this stuff. Just don't forget to give it the 
LONG name or ID of the field.

Cheers,
Sarah
On 10 Feb 2004, at 9:35 am, Frank Leahy wrote:

Is it possible to view a transcript of the commands that RR sends and 
receives when I use the various ftp upload and ftp download functions?

An undocumented callback parameter perhaps?

Thanks,
-- Frank
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Re: REV and multimedia

[erik hansen]

--- Klaus Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So in general, there are no reasons to not
> install QT on your pc...
> But maybe someone should write a "libMCI"

any comparisons with Windows Media Player?

=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org

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Re: REV and multimedia

[erik hansen]

--- Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Quicktime is not available for Linux. Quicktime
> for Windows is a 16MB download.
> For a shareware developer to require users to
> make a 16MB download 
> could be a problem.

i couldn't find the PRICE for the download.

=
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RE: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[erik hansen]

--- Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> thinking of it a multimedia/game
> tool is most limiting.

it has to be one or the other?

=
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Re: mission critical apps

[David Vaughan]

On  and before 10/02/2004, at 7:19, several people wrote many things on 
this topic:


Fundamentally, Alex is right but it does not matter a lot. So is Rob 
but in a different sphere. Meanwhile, I think Frank is wrong.

Without going back to the original, I recall Alex's basic points as 
being:
- Rev lacks the inherent or external tools to support large team 
development.
- A Smalltalk-like message passing structure makes assurance of formal 
correctness difficult.

I am not certain that the second point (as I have interpreted him) is 
true in the sense that it can not be dealt with in tool design or code 
management but the first alone is sufficient to wipe Rev out of large 
scale application development anyway. So, does this matter?

While some of the commentary drifted between xTalk as a viable language 
and the actual topic of message model and team development, the nub 
appears to be: in what market is Rev playing, and is the tool you are 
using viable? In fact, I think this thread originally grew from Alex or 
someone's difficulty in getting Rev accepted as a development tool by a 
client.

There was an article a year or so ago (there will be a ref in the 
archives somewhere) on xTalks. Essentially, it placed them as very high 
level RAD tools ideally adapted to glue functions. Recall that Alex 
never gainsaid Rev's productivity advantages, only its fitness for 
large scale development. I think his reference to "mission critical" is 
a little off topic in that mission critical is quite often a discovery 
after the software has been in use for a while. I would simply stick 
with a measure of size, which of course is highly correlated with 
mission-critical.

Rob's defence of Rev's productivity and reliability is fair but again 
is off the core point. Rev is perfectly suited to those millions of 
small-scale niche (in the best sense) applications for business, on 
which the computing world actually thrives. It is also excellently 
suited to systems integration tasks of glueing unlike apps together, or 
post-processing standardised output to give interactive and enhanced 
access or multimedia presentation. In either of those roles, it can and 
will be used in "the enterprise" and is a powerful platform for a small 
firm marketing to those enterprises. It is just that it will not be 
used to re-write SAP or Sabre or ComputerShare or the like. It may help 
glue, say, the accounting system with a proprietary case management 
system and provide joint reporting from them or to enable common web 
access to a (Rev) engine reprocessing corporate data. These are things 
MIS generally does not want to do and present golden opportunities for 
small integration firms.

Then, there are endless apps already made by people on this list. Core 
tools like Rob's SDB, Sarah's POP library and Shao Sean's LibSMTP. Apps 
like Oenolog and Tom's instructive CD or Alex' ARC (excuse me for not 
going on). They are providing reliable and effective service because 
they are based on a solid platform.

Hence, I think Alex's positioning of Rev is fair but in my view not in 
any respect damaging. Let me put this another way. You could be a 
programmer in a huge enterprise or in a small business, possibly your 
own. Where have you chosen to work? Then choose the right tool for what 
you are doing and don't fret over what you are not doing.

While I'm here, I may as well add my free trade comment on Frank's 
request for C-like syntax:
- It will remove zero bugs from Rev
- It is more likely to add programmer coding and reading bugs than to 
reduce them
- It will make some people more comfortable with the language and 
others less.
- Transcript is a perfectly good (in the vernacular sense) formal 
language as it stands.

Those interested in it can always write the requisite pre-processor 
themselves and insert it into the editor, then release and maintain it 
for a price. The market will answer for their opinion.

regards
David
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ftp commands that RR sends and receives?

[Frank Leahy]

Is it possible to view a transcript of the commands that RR sends and 
receives when I use the various ftp upload and ftp download functions?

An undocumented callback parameter perhaps?

Thanks,
-- Frank
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Re: Transcript is flexible and requires me to make choices.

[tuviah snyder]

>Inline might be on this path.
Agreed. Let's discuss this on the improve list.

Tuviah

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Re: Transcript is flexible and requires me to make choices.

[tuviah snyder]

>Kinda like in C++ where the virtual keyword changes how the 
>functions-object lookups are done at runtime? (totally from memory; I 
>never was a good C++ programmer)
Yes. There is a reason why methods aren't virtual by default in C sharp

http://www.artima.com/intv/nonvirtual.html

Tuviah

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Re: Building a Windows Menu

[Sarah Reichelt]

On 10 Feb 2004, at 9:02 am, Stewart Lynch wrote:

I have followed the instructions in the Rev Cookbook for creating a 
Window
menu (Recipe for automatically updating a Window Menu.

It works just fine on Windows, but not under Mac OS X

I note the following in the Recipe.

Cross-platform note:  When a menu button is being displayed in the Mac 
OS
menu bar, it does not receive mouseDown messages, but its group does. 
For
this reason, this example handler should be placed in the script of the
menu bar group, rather than in the menu button. (The first line of the
handler makes sure it’s only executed if the user clicked the Window
menu.) This ensures that the example will work on all platforms.

The problem appears to be the line
if the short name of the target is "Window" then
You are correct - this is the problem, so just remove this line (& it's 
matching end if) and build the Windows menu any time the mouse goes 
down in the menu bar. It is so quick the extra overhead doesn't matter,

Jeanne: this is a cookbook problem.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: Tutorials or instructions on delivering MacOSX apps...

[Mark Brownell]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 02:38  PM, Alex Rice wrote:


Given that, I still have one problem with an OS X distribution which 
hopefully some guru on the list will be able to answer :-) (Alex - 
are you listening?)
Sorry, there is only one guru on this list: Sivakatirswami
:-)


Yeah :-) ... and he's gone climbing in the Himalayas

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Re: Tutorials or instructions on delivering MacOSX apps...

[Richard Gaskin]

Sarah Reichelt wrote:

> I have an application and it is all bundled into a neat package, which
> I have set up in a folder with a background picture so that it shows
> the logo and the install instructions ("Drag this to your applications
> folder.") This works fine on my own computer and even when I create a
> disk image, compress it and then extract it again, I still get the
> picture showing. However when I send the compressed disk image to
> another computer, the picture doesn't show, even though the picture is
> hidden on the disk image.
> 
> I can only think of 2 possibilities and have no idea how to get around
> either of them:
> 1. The path is absolute, so it's

I had the same issue.  Make sure the graphic being referenced resides in the
DMG itself and you should be fine.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
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Building a Windows Menu

[Stewart Lynch]

I have followed the instructions in the Rev Cookbook for creating a Window
menu (Recipe for automatically updating a Window Menu.

It works just fine on Windows, but not under Mac OS X

I note the following in the Recipe.

Cross-platform note:  When a menu button is being displayed in the Mac OS
menu bar, it does not receive mouseDown messages, but its group does. For
this reason, this example handler should be placed in the script of the
menu bar group, rather than in the menu button. (The first line of the
handler makes sure it’s only executed if the user clicked the Window
menu.) This ensures that the example will work on all platforms.

The problem appears to be the line
if the short name of the target is "Window" then

When you click on the menubar under OS X, the target is the menubar and
not the menu so the conditional never gets executed since the name of the
target is not "Window" but the name of the menubar itself.

Thus, the Cross-Platform note above is true, but placing the script in the
menu bar group does not work.

Any suggestions?


***

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: <|   : Director of Instruction, Technology and Information Services
: / >  : Richmond School District
:..:   Richmond, BC Canada
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Re: Tutorials or instructions on delivering MacOSX apps...

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 3:24 PM, Sarah Reichelt wrote:

Given that, I still have one problem with an OS X distribution which 
hopefully some guru on the list will be able to answer :-) (Alex - are 
you listening?)
Sorry, there is only one guru on this list: Sivakatirswami
:-)
I know this can be done as I have downloaded disk images with a 
background picture, so does anyone know how?
I suspect there is some caching going on with the Finder's metadata. 
You have to trick the Finder into syncing the metadata to disk. See 
3.7.4 below


3.7 Making Images With Background Pictures
When making an image from a folder, DropDMG copies to the image the 
background pictures and view options of all the contained folders. It 
does not copy this information for the top-level folder because Apple 
does not provide a way to do this. If the top-level background picture 
and view settings on the image are important to you, you can set them 
as follows:
	1.  	 Drag the folder onto DropDMG and create a read-write image.
	2.  	 Mount the image in the Finder.
	3.  	 Set the background picture on the mounted image. Make sure the 
picture file you select is saved somewhere on the disk image. Set the 
view options and arrange the icons the way you want them.
	4.  	 Sometimes the Finder doesn’t save changes to the view options. 
It may help to create and delete an empty folder on the image.
	5.  	 Unmount the image in the Finder using the Eject command in the 
File menu.
	6.  	 Drag the .dmg file onto DropDMG and convert it to read-only or a 
compressed format.

--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
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Re: OS X Standalone Prog Folder Problem?

[Peter Reid]

Hmmm.  Thanks for the thought, but why does it WORK inside the 
development environment under OS X?  I would have thought that it 
would fail BOTH as a standalone AND in the development environment 
under OS X??  My folder structure is:

   Standalone App
   support folder
  support files
I've used this approach for ages, including with projects using 
earlier versions (v1.1.1) of RunRev under OS X, and not had this 
problem before.  It seems as though something has changed or there is 
a bug?!

Just a thought, My classic apps have a data folder with the .rev 
file in it. Could that be where your file path starts? If so it is 
one level deeper than your OSX app. I had a similar problem with an 
autorun win cd and ended up having to put the media at the root 
level for OS9 and OSX but also have it available one level deep for 
the win file. In future projects I will know this and always put my 
media at least one level deep in separate folders. i.e.:



Tom

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:15 PM, Peter Reid wrote:

I'm using Rev 2.1.2 under Mac OS X 10.3.2 to build an app.  If I 
run the app inside the development environment, or as a standalone 
Classic app, then it works fine.  However, if I run the OS X app 
built at the same time, then it fails to locate the support folder 
and files in the same folder as the app.

Any suggestions please, this was meant to be a "quick" rehosting as 
part of a general upgrade from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X, but currently 
my client will have to run the app in Classic mode as the OS X 
version doesn't work!
Thomas J. McGrath III
--
Peter Reid
Reid-IT Limited, Loughborough, Leics., UK
Tel: +44 (0)1509 268843 Fax: +44 (0)8700 527576
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Re: Tutorials or instructions on delivering MacOSX apps...

[Sarah Reichelt]

On 6 Feb 2004, at 8:34 pm, Robert Brenstein wrote:
Who said Macs were easier? Not when it comes to compiling and 
delivering
apps! (<--WARNING: OBVIOUS TROLL)

This has always been true. From day one. Macs have been easier for end 
users but supporting that properly has always required more work by 
programmers (even with such great tools like THINK products were).

I think this is a very good point which is often over-looked. After our 
efforts, the customers get a single file, which automatically unpacks 
on download and gives them a disk image already open on the desktop. 
All they have to do is drag what appears to be a single file to their 
hard disk (although many apps will run fine from the disk image) and 
double-click. That's it - the complete installation process. 
Uninstalling is just as easy - trash that single file and it's gone. We 
know what lies under the surface, but why should our users have to 
bother about that.

Given that, I still have one problem with an OS X distribution which 
hopefully some guru on the list will be able to answer :-) (Alex - are 
you listening?)

I have an application and it is all bundled into a neat package, which 
I have set up in a folder with a background picture so that it shows 
the logo and the install instructions ("Drag this to your applications 
folder.") This works fine on my own computer and even when I create a 
disk image, compress it and then extract it again, I still get the 
picture showing. However when I send the compressed disk image to 
another computer, the picture doesn't show, even though the picture is 
hidden on the disk image.

I can only think of 2 possibilities and have no idea how to get around 
either of them:
1. The path is absolute, so it's looking for the image in "Sarah's HD" 
rather than in it's own folder.
2. This is dictated by a preference that is stored on my computer, not 
on the disk image.

I know this can be done as I have downloaded disk images with a 
background picture, so does anyone know how?

TIA,
Sarah
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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 01:18 PM, "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Simple syntax/support question I would like to "put" a array into the 
element of another array then access it.  How would this be done?

put myArray into otherArray[ARRAY_KEY]

If so can t be accessed via

put otherArray[ARRAY_KEY][0] into myVariable?
You can't do that.  Yet.  There is an enhancement request on bugzilla.

But the coma operator is can turn a 1D array into virtually a 2D or 3D 
array.  When working with numbers and the comma operator to make keys, 
make sure the numberFormat property is the same.  That may not be as 
much a concern with whole numbers.

Dar Scott

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Re: OS X Standalone Prog Folder Problem?

[Thomas McGrath III]

Just a thought, My classic apps have a data folder with the .rev file 
in it. Could that be where your file path starts? If so it is one level 
deeper than your OSX app. I had a similar problem with an autorun win 
cd and ended up having to put the media at the root level for OS9 and 
OSX but also have it available one level deep for the win file. In 
future projects I will know this and always put my media at least one 
level deep in separate folders. i.e.:
CD:
	Readme.txt
	OS9 App
	OSX App
	autorun.inf -- for win.exe file in Data folder
	WinShortcut -- to Win.exe one level deeper for easy nav when not 
autorun.inf used
		Data -- Folder one level deep
			Win.exe App
			Media -- folder for all media
media.wav
media.png
media.jpg -- etc.
			Library1.rev -- Mac library file
			Library2.rev -- etc.
			Data -- folder for win library files
winLibrary.rev -- win library file

This way all apps can get to library files and media files as they need 
to in distributed form.

Tom

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:15 PM, Peter Reid wrote:
I'm using Rev 2.1.2 under Mac OS X 10.3.2 to build an app.  If I run 
the app inside the development environment, or as a standalone Classic 
app, then it works fine.  However, if I run the OS X app built at the 
same time, then it fails to locate the support folder and files in the 
same folder as the app.

Any suggestions please, this was meant to be a "quick" rehosting as 
part of a general upgrade from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X, but currently my 
client will have to run the app in Classic mode as the OS X version 
doesn't work!

Thanks
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Reid-IT Limited, Loughborough, Leics., UK
Tel: +44 (0)1509 268843 Fax: +44 (0)8700 527576
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Re: Setting the window rect and splitter loc in the Variable

[Sarah Reichelt]

It drove me crazy that the VW window kept resetting, so I worked out 
this technique: open it up and set it how you would like it. Then 
hold down ALL the modifier keys (Shift, Control, Option & Command) 
and click in the Variable Watcher.


Do you use your elbow to hold'em down or ask the cat for help?

My nose wasn't doing anything else at the time :-)

BTW - this tip didn't work for some people and I finally worked out 
this was because of a preference setting. If you go into the Rev 
Preferences and check "Contextual menus work in revolution windows", 
then you will get access to this method.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Newbie Help: Best method for entering/displaying array data

[Dennis F. Kahlbaum]

I am working on a weather-related application which requires processing
24 hourly values for temperature and relative humidity.   The user has
the option of using default values or changing any of them.  My current
thought is to use two 24-cell arrays for holding the data. What is the
best method in RR for displaying and editing the temperature and
relative humidity arrays?   My attempts at using a field with a vertical
grid doesn't work.  Any detailed help (including, perhaps, an example
stack) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Dennis F. Kahlbaum
University of Michigan


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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 2:26 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

Talking with my C programmer partner Chris, he mentioned that the
same messaging path problems are found in Delphi and VB as well
with variants of C including C#. So, how does MS and Borland sell
their products into mission critical enterprise environments?
On this point my response was kind of flippant. More serious:

With C and C#, the compiler goes to great effort to flag problems 
before run-time, and static typing is also available.

Delphi I have no idea.

VB I don't know (However, with VBA I know there are static object 
types. I don't remember what other steps the compiler takes when you 
save or compile a script)

I would not lump xtalks and C, C#, VB, Delphi all into one category. I 
still believe there are a lot of challenge that are unique to xtalks 
and runrev.

--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
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Re: The Bitstream VERA font, the first truely crossplatformsolution

[Robert Brenstein]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 06:24 AM, Robert Brenstein wrote:

This will be possible only when text attributes will become truly 
inherited. I mean individually inherited. As it is now, they are 
object/chunk attributes are now stored in sets (bundles of font 
name, size, and style). This should be an enhancement request but I 
don't recall seeing it in bugzilla.
It has come up in the related issue a change in one changing the 
other.  I don't remember if this is entered as an enhancement.  I'm 
all for simple, clean and rich.  Independence contributes to 
richness.

Dar Scott
Upon more thorough investigation, I found it as bug #66. But is has 
only 1 vote!

Robert
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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 2:26 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

My first mission critical app was written in SuperCard! It was a
Jumbotron display controller for the NBA called "JIVES" and it
controlled the big screen TV's for NBA teams.
That's a great example. Case study material.

Talking with my C programmer partner Chris, he mentioned that the
same messaging path problems are found in Delphi and VB as well
with variants of C including C#. So, how does MS and Borland sell
their products into mission critical enterprise environments?
By bullsh1t-power, with raw marketing $.

If you can believe it, the thing ran on a Mac -- and still didn't 
crash.
I guess it must have been locked in a closet where nobody could run 
other apps on the Mac during ball games.

He also stated the big problem with message paths is when the
message chain gets full and then things get lost.
Message chain gets full and then things get lost? Ouch. That's no 
confidence builder.

play " ka-ching !"
answer info "Out of space in message chain; insert coin to continue." 
titled \
	"Oh &*^$"

 You
asked how to sell xTalks in corporate environments. Sell it as a
PROTOTYPE tool.
OK point taken.

Well, the Homeland Security App has the safety of data at stake.
Hemingway has the safety of an individuals website at stake --
along with the possible loss of revenue from a website being
down/hacked. The last product is a realestate web application,
with similar concerns.
Thanks for the counter examples.

--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
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RE: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Chipp Walters]

Alex,
 
My first mission critical app was written in SuperCard! It was a 
Jumbotron display controller for the NBA called "JIVES" and it 
controlled the big screen TV's for NBA teams. As many advertisers 
use the Jumbotron, $$$ were at stake if it didn't work properly. 
In over 5 years of use, to my knowledge, it only malfunctioned 1 
time during a game (actually pre-game and it was due to a bug I 
accidently left in on a new build).

Talking with my C programmer partner Chris, he mentioned that the 
same messaging path problems are found in Delphi and VB as well 
with variants of C including C#. So, how does MS and Borland sell 
their products into mission critical enterprise environments?

If you can believe it, the thing ran on a Mac -- and still didn't crash.

He also stated the big problem with message paths is when the 
message chain gets full and then things get lost. He suggested 
that RR programs can be written to be 'procedural-like' (see 
mc.cgi's for instance) which would cut-down on the possibilities 
of message chain problems.

> > > But, salesmen come in all forms. I would suggest a different 
> tact: Use 
> > > RR to
> > > prototype the mission critical tool.
> > 
> > Don't appeal to programmer productivity. I already know runrev is the 
> > most productive tool for me. That's not the issue. I asked: "How are 
> > you going to sell xtalks in a corporate environment where reliability 
> > and correctness is _more important than programmer productivity_ ?"
> 
You missed the point...it's *not about productivity*, but rather 
the prototyping value of RunRev, which it is not necessary to be 
mission critical safe. The point is use RR to PROTOTYPE. You 
asked how to sell xTalks in corporate environments. Sell it as a 
PROTOTYPE tool.
>  
> > > All of that being said, I am currently working on 3 
> Enterprise class RR
> > > applications. I did them all by prototyping and convincing the 
> > > management
> > > they can save LOTS of $$$ by letting us develop in RR vs VB or C. So 
> > > far,
> > > it's worked.
> > 
> > Great! Are they mission critical? (my definition = $, property or 
> > safety is at stake)
> 
Well, the Homeland Security App has the safety of data at stake. 
Hemingway has the safety of an individuals website at stake -- 
along with the possible loss of revenue from a website being 
down/hacked. The last product is a realestate web application, 
with similar concerns.
> 
best,
 
Chipp
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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Kevin]

Thanks for the suggestion I will try several and see how they work out.

Kevin




 --- On Mon 02/09, Trevor DeVore < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Trevor DeVore [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:09:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:43 PM, Kevin wrote:> My problem is that a custom property 
would be a "global" type setting. >  I am attempting to create a structure that 
can be passed from message > to message (a type of secession information).  I 
require a > "parameters" array to be a "member" of a "secession" array object any 
> ideas?>>> In C++/Perl this is relative sumple but I cannot seem to 
locate any > information about it for Transcript.I came from a PHP 
background where I would used arrays for just about everything.  Arrays aren't 
quite as useful in Transcript but I've found that with Transcript I was able to 
use line/comma delimited lists for quite a few things that I would have normally 
used arrays for.  You can access the values using item x of myArray["Key"] or line 
x of myArray["Key"].So in your example you may be able to turn your 
parameters array into a parameters list "param1,param2,param3" or "param1"&cr&"param2"&cr&"param3", etc.  That might accomplish what you 
want.-- Trevor DeVoreBlue Mango Multimedia[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]___use-revolution 
mailing list[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re:Manipulating Old Dates

[Ray G. Miller]

Ken Norris asked:

Rob,

In the product I'm working on with a client right now, we keep track of
birthdates. And the way we manage it is by setting the centuryCutoff to
one less than the current year (so right now it's "03"). This means that
as long as someone is 99 years old or less, we're OK. It's not a perfect
solution, but it's working so far.
 



> What do we do with _really_ old dates, like weather logs from 
California missions 300 years ago? Ideas? Ken N.

The centuryCutoff is a real bad idea. HyperCard had it almost correct: "true date" up to +/- AD 32000...

About a thousand cycles ago on the MetaCard list, this basic flaw in the engine was hammered around for a month or more, I believe Rob Cozen was one of the contributors. Someone came up with a Julian/Gregorian convertor: worked up to (down to?) Jan 1, 1801.

I battled with it for another month or so, but it's pretty much a kudge: lookup tables for really olden times. 

This is not merely quirky, it's needed in lots of APPs. I have three projects going which require time spans greater than 100 years. If the filks at Apple had this solved, surely the RevTeam can do it... or this group.

Let's see, there's 365.24+... days in a year ;-)

Ray

Ray G. Miller
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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Trevor DeVore]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:43 PM, Kevin wrote:
My problem is that a custom property would be a "global" type setting. 
 I am attempting to create a structure that can be passed from message 
to message (a type of secession information).  I require a 
"parameters" array to be a "member" of a "secession" array object any 
ideas?

In C++/Perl this is relative sumple but I cannot seem to locate any 
information about it for Transcript.
I came from a PHP background where I would used arrays for just about 
everything.  Arrays aren't quite as useful in Transcript but I've found 
that with Transcript I was able to use line/comma delimited lists for 
quite a few things that I would have normally used arrays for.  You can 
access the values using item x of myArray["Key"] or line x of 
myArray["Key"].

So in your example you may be able to turn your parameters array into a 
parameters list "param1,param2,param3" or 
"param1"&cr&"param2"&cr&"param3", etc.  That might accomplish what you 
want.

--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> My problem is that a custom property would be a
> "global" type setting.  I am attempting to create a
> structure that can be passed from message to message
> (a type of secession information).  I require a
> "parameters" array to be a "member" of a "secession"
> array object any ideas? 
> 
> 
> In C++/Perl this is relative sumple but I cannot
> seem to locate any information about it for
> Transcript.
> 
> Kevin
> 

Hi Kevin,

One way to pass structured information from one
message to the next is by sticking the information in
an XMLTree, and pass its ID.

Jan Schenkel.

=
"As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La 
Rochefoucauld)

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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Trevor DeVore]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:36 PM, Kevin wrote:

Does the access Array[ key1, key2 ] expand all elements of the array 
to have the same number of cells or is this dynamic?  I gues the 
qestion is is the array actually implemented as a list?
I believe it is dynamic.

--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Kevin]

My problem is that a custom property would be a "global" type setting.  I am 
attempting to create a structure that can be passed from message to message (a type of 
secession information).  I require a "parameters" array to be a "member" of a 
"secession" array object any ideas? 


In C++/Perl this is relative sumple but I cannot seem to locate any information about 
it for Transcript.

Kevin



 --- On Mon 02/09, Trevor DeVore < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Trevor DeVore [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:31:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:18 PM, "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> Simple 
syntax/support question I would like to "put" a array into the > element of 
another array then access it.  How would this be done?>> put myArray into 
otherArray[ARRAY_KEY]>> If so can t be accessed via>> put 
otherArray[ARRAY_KEY][0] into myVariable?In Transcript a multi-dimensional 
array is created like this - myArray["key1", "key2"].  AFAIK you cannot assign an 
array as the value of another array element.  Someone correct me if I'm 
wrong.What you can do is assign an array to a custom property set.  An 
example:put "stuff" into myArray["Key1", "Key1.2", "Key1.2.1"]set 
the customProperties["MyArray"] of this card to myArrayThe card would now have 
a new Custom Property named "MyArray" with the key: "Key1,Key1.2,Key1.2.1" and a 
value of "stuff"-- Trevor DeVoreBlue Mango Multimedia[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
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Lorin is Lorin (was Re: Rev Review)

[Michael Young]

On Feb 4, 2004, at 2:33 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

I like your comments on ways to improve the RunRev Web site and would
encourage you to forward them to Lorin Rivers at <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> as
I'm sure that refining Web site is an ongoing interest.
Lorin Rivers was VP of Marketing for REAL Software (REALbasic)
Or is this a different Lorin Rivers?
I had the same question when Lorin sent me an e-mail last summer asking 
me
to comment on RR.

It is the same person per my e-mail discussion with Heather.

Michael Y

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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Kevin]

Does the access Array[ key1, key2 ] expand all elements of the array to have the same 
number of cells or is this dynamic?  I gues the qestion is is the array actually 
implemented as a list?

K






 --- On Mon 02/09, Trevor DeVore < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Trevor DeVore [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:31:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:18 PM, "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> Simple 
syntax/support question I would like to "put" a array into the > element of 
another array then access it.  How would this be done?>> put myArray into 
otherArray[ARRAY_KEY]>> If so can t be accessed via>> put 
otherArray[ARRAY_KEY][0] into myVariable?In Transcript a multi-dimensional 
array is created like this - myArray["key1", "key2"].  AFAIK you cannot assign an 
array as the value of another array element.  Someone correct me if I'm 
wrong.What you can do is assign an array to a custom property set.  An 
example:put "stuff" into myArray["Key1", "Key1.2", "Key1.2.1"]set 
the customProperties["MyArray"] of this card to myArrayThe card would now have 
a new Custom Property named "MyArray" with the key: "Key1,Key1.2,Key1.2.1" and a 
value of "stuff"-- Trevor DeVoreBlue Mango Multimedia[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
 ia.com___use-revolution 
mailing list[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Marty Billingsley]

Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asks
>Marty Billingsley wrote:
>
>> That said, the RR user interface isn't as friendly toward
>> students as it could be, but we're coping. :-)
>
>If you could make three changes to the Rev UI what would they be?

Have to think about this for a while.  I'm in the middle of the
second go-around of a quarter-long course that was taught in
HyperCard until this year (to eighth graders), and am just getting
a handle on what the kids find to be difficult.

1: more for my convenience than the students', but I'd love to
have the Home stack back.  I used to be able to include a whole
library of sounds for the students to use without having to
explicitly import them.  Now I have to give the students a CD of
sound effects and have them import the sounds into their projects
before they can use them.  Huge time-waster.

Another example of the added difficulty: we do a project that
incorporates music (we create an electronic keyboard) using Shakobox.
The students have to explicitly start the stack using Shakobox and
also include an applescript which quits an external application when
they close the stack.  I'd like to hide this detail from my students;
right now I put a stack in a central location that they can copy
from; the stack has the scripts necessary to make Shakobox work, but
nothing else.  Having the Home stack back would be great; is there
some way to mimic that in Rev?

2: minor annoyances could be fixed, such as the properties
inspector sometimes not inspecting the object that is currently
selected.  I'm thinking it's supposed to switch when when you
switch selections, but it only happens about half the time.
Since students aren't very alert to this they end up changing
properties of the wrong object some of the time.

The painting tools aren't very robust; they often don't work
when another object, like a button, is present on the card.
I like to encourage the students to create their own art work
instead of just using images off the web, so this is off-putting.

3: the properties inspector has many more options than my students
use.  They find it hard to remember where things are, because (to
them) the placement isn't always logical.  Why, for example, can't
you choose the text color in the text formatting tab?  I'd like
some way to simplify the inspector so that things my students are
likely to need will be on the main tab (basic properties) and
everything else is someplace else.  This, of course, would have
to be configurable by each user, much the way toolbars are in
many apps.

This was a good question!  Made me thinkand realize that the
UI is actually pretty robust, if the above is all I could come
up with.

Oh, and help could be easier.  Better keyword search and/or index
to the transcript language dictionary.  Right now you have to
know the name of the thing you want to find out about.  We need
a transcript dictionary of synonyms. :-)

  - marty

--
Marty Billingsley ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
The University of Chicago Laboratory Schools

"We are our choices"
   - Sartre


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Re: Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

[Trevor DeVore]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:18 PM, "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Simple syntax/support question I would like to "put" a array into the 
element of another array then access it.  How would this be done?

put myArray into otherArray[ARRAY_KEY]

If so can t be accessed via

put otherArray[ARRAY_KEY][0] into myVariable?
In Transcript a multi-dimensional array is created like this - 
myArray["key1", "key2"].  AFAIK you cannot assign an array as the value 
of another array element.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

What you can do is assign an array to a custom property set.  An 
example:

put "stuff" into myArray["Key1", "Key1.2", "Key1.2.1"]

set the customProperties["MyArray"] of this card to myArray

The card would now have a new Custom Property named "MyArray" with the 
key: "Key1,Key1.2,Key1.2.1" and a value of "stuff"

--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: XML Documentation

[Trevor DeVore]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 11:49 AM, "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have been looking at the Runtime Revolution XML API it seems similar 
to expat and several others I have used.  However, I have failed to 
locate any examples or tutorials are there any? If so where might I 
find them?
In the Revolution application folder there is a folder called "Sample 
Stacks".  Check out the sample xml folder.



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
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Re: REV and multimedia

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 12:19 PM, Ken Norris wrote:

What's the alternative for scripting movies in Rev?
I think AVI is the other movie format that Rev supports, aside from 
Quicktime. And animated GIF of course.

How about PNG animations (MNG)? 

--
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Setting a element of a array equal to a array?

Simple syntax/support question I would like to "put" a array into the element of 
another array then access it.  How would this be done?

put myArray into otherArray[ARRAY_KEY]

If so can t be accessed via 

put otherArray[ARRAY_KEY][0] into myVariable?

K


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Re: Rev Review

[Jerry Daniels]

It's the same Lorin Rivers. He's no longer with REALbasic, obviously.

-Jerry

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:13 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Alex Rice wrote:

On Feb 4, 2004, at 2:33 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

I like your comments on ways to improve the RunRev Web site and would
encourage you to forward them to Lorin Rivers at <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
as
I'm
sure that refining Web site is an ongoing interest.
Lorin Rivers was VP of Marketing for REAL Software (REALbasic)
Or is this a different Lorin Rivers?
I saw reference to his address earlier on this list in relation to
marketing.  I haven't seen him on the RB list for quite some time.
--
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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Rob Cozens]

I sense you feel threatened by this thread because SDB and libIPC 
are geared towards a more business like, maybe mission-critical 
applications?
Thank you, Alex, for the excuse for a little PR.

1. SDB & libIPC are free and open source

2. My concern is that they do the job for my applications, as I make 
no money from their acceptance by others

3. SDB is offered to others so I have a greater base of developer & 
client site experience to draw from for a tool that is critical to my 
applications.

4. SDB is positioned as a simple, generalized, native Transcript data 
storage & retrieval engine...it's utility begins at the low and can 
be extended to I-don't-know-what...my largest test database to date 
is 43 MB (43,043 records).

5. It is available for any Revolution application that needs to store 
& retrieve data by key, mission critical or not.

SDB is part of the Serendipity Library bundle:

 

Enjoy!

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: Would you have written it in time? was Re: mission critical apps

[Richard Gaskin]

Rob Cozens wrote:

> And, by the way, reliability is not an issue from my perspective.
> How long has the underlying MetaCard engine been on the market?

Rev's VM has been field-tested for more than 13 years.

-- 
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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:

1.  If you have reliability concerns, check with the MetaCard community

2.  If you cannot become comfortable with message passing, you will 
always be uncomfortable with any flavor of X-Talk.
Sounds like good advice

Thanks,

--
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Re: REV and multimedia

[Ken Norris]

Hi Alex,

> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:35:14 -0700
> From: Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: REV and multimedia
> 
> 
> On Feb 9, 2004, at 10:24 AM, Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote:
> 
>> Why this big negative about using Apple technologies? Quicktime works
>> well, and is free.
> 
> Quicktime is not available for Linux. Quicktime for Windows is a 16MB
> download.
> For a shareware developer to require users to make a 16MB download
> could be a problem.
--
What's the alternative for scripting movies in Rev?

Ken N.

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Re: Would you have written it in time? was Re: mission critical apps

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 11:43 AM, Alex Rice wrote:
I know- but for someone who didn't cut their teeth with metacard, and 
all they have experienced is the runrev IDE, then it's blind faith 
that the engine is as bulletproof as it's reputed to be.
Sorry "cut their teeth" is probably a poor expression to use on this 
list. "cut your teeth" means something like: "to gain experience by 
using"

--
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Re: Rev Review

[Richard Gaskin]

Alex Rice wrote:

> On Feb 4, 2004, at 2:33 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> 
>> I like your comments on ways to improve the RunRev Web site and would
>> encourage you to forward them to Lorin Rivers at <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> as
>> I'm
>> sure that refining Web site is an ongoing interest.
> 
> Lorin Rivers was VP of Marketing for REAL Software (REALbasic)
> Or is this a different Lorin Rivers?

I saw reference to his address earlier on this list in relation to
marketing.  I haven't seen him on the RB list for quite some time.

-- 
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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Rob Cozens]

Where might I locate the SDB/libIPC (to edcuate myself)?


Enjoy!
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: Transcript is flexible and requires me to make choices.

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 11:12 AM, tuviah snyder wrote:

So I'm for any syntax which would enable me to precompile some 
functions
(such as math functions, ect) without losing the flexibility in cases 
where
I may want to dynamically intercept messages like mousemove in a 
backscript.
Perhaps a tiny first step would be to optimize function binding within 
the same script.

This might be triggered by a keyword at the function definition.

It also might be done with notation at the call.  This would clutter 
the call but has the advantage in that it would create a compile error 
if the function is not in the script.  Maybe all calls in braces must 
be resolved as built-in or script local.

Inline might be on this path.

If it wasn't for front scripts this could be a transparent 
optimization.  Or am I not understanding front scripts right?

Dar Scott

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Re: REV and multimedia

[Richard Gaskin]

Christopher Mitchell wrote:

> I can give you a concrete reason why some of my Win only friends are
> edgy about having to install quicktime, and it is for the same reason I
> am edgy about having to install any product from Real media: there is,
> or at least has been in past installers, a tendency for QT to hijack
> media playing, and this is (again, an an older release) even with being
> careful about installation choices.
> 
> If you get too many people gunshy of installing your product because it
> either has given them experience of hijacking their media (whether by
> user error or not-quite-okay install script) then they're not going to
> change easily...

Agreed on the preception:  QuickTime is very polite about file extensions,
but Real is horribly rude and has established unfortunate expectations that
bleed over to other products.

Apple could do a better job of explaining the distinctions between the
QuickTime and Real Player experiences.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Rob Cozens]

I sense you feel threatened by this thread because SDB and libIPC 
are geared towards a more business like, maybe mission-critical 
applications?
Sorry if it comes off looking that way, Alex.  As IS manager for 
several corporate & governmental organizations, I did my home work 
and provided senior management with persuasive arguments for my 
choice of programming platforms.  I am totally comfortable with my 
selection of Revolution as my platform of choice for the kinds of 
software I produce, and am willing to discuss comparisons 
point-by-point to the extent that my knowledge allows.

Frankly, there's a part of me that feels, the fewer developers that 
appreciate Revolution, the fewer serious competitors I'll have.  For 
a decade & a half I made a living supporting FlexWare accounting 
installations.  Ever hear of FlexWare?  Neither had most of the folks 
who bought it until they were shown what it could do for them. 
Virtually none of them understood the internals of FlexWare or cared 
(none ever asked) if the FlexWare db was relational or SQL 
compatible.  (FYI we're dealing here with mom & pop businesses to 
corporations with revenues < $ 1 billion to governmental agencies 
like Port of Vancouver USA & the Canadian Public Health Association.)

But I am saying:

1.  If you have reliability concerns, check with the MetaCard community

2.  If you cannot become comfortable with message passing, you will 
always be uncomfortable with any flavor of X-Talk.
--

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: The Bitstream VERA font, the first truely crossplatformsolution

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 06:24 AM, Robert Brenstein wrote:

This will be possible only when text attributes will become truly 
inherited. I mean individually inherited. As it is now, they are 
object/chunk attributes are now stored in sets (bundles of font name, 
size, and style). This should be an enhancement request but I don't 
recall seeing it in bugzilla.
It has come up in the related issue a change in one changing the other. 
 I don't remember if this is entered as an enhancement.  I'm all for 
simple, clean and rich.  Independence contributes to richness.

Dar Scott

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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

Where might I locate the SDB/libIPC (to edcuate myself)?

K






 --- On Mon 02/09, Alex Rice < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Alex Rice [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:41:13 -0700
Subject: Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

On Feb 9, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:> That is certainly not true 
of script syntax errors... and when you do > encounter them you can open the 
script editor, correct the problem, > and go right on with your runtime testing 
[unless applying the script > changes the value of declared local 
variables].I stand corrected. So some bugs are found when the script is 
edited. Everything else is found at runtime.>> That has just not been 
my general experience, Alex.Did I say it *cannot be done*? No. I said there 
are unique challenges. In a previous post you acknowledged as much:> Upon 
reflection, I will acknowledge that message path issues were one > of the most 
difficult parts of my transition from PL/1, C, & Pascal to > 
HyperTalk.>   And specifically, from a post to the rev_ipc group:> 
As I write this, my OS X test SDB client has completed 24 hours of> auto testing 
without inte
 rruption since I restarted it after turning> off sleep mode on the iMac.  It has 
issued about 24,000 commands to> the server since 
restarting.Congratulations. I never claimed it was impossible to produce 
reliable apps with runrev. Just challenging.But I can get pedantic too. 
The messaging bug I was remembering that Dar opened was this:bug # 102: 
"""After message ID of 2147483647 is assigned, the next message ID is 
-2147483648.  This in itself is not a problem; a large cycle in the message ID is 
OK.  BothpendingMessages and the result show a negative number. The problem is 
that that messages with a negative message ID cannot be canceled.""">> 
But I suggest that some of the issues being raised here cut to the > very core 
foundation of X-Talks, and if you can't accept things the > way they are, you will 
be continually frustrated with your experience > with Revolution.I sense 
you feel thr
 eatened by this thread because SDB and libIPC are geared towards a more business 
like, maybe mission-critical applications? For all I know SDB and libIPC are the 
most solid, bulletproof apps ever engineered in an xtalk language. I wish you all 
the best with SDB and libIPC.--Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | 
http://mindlube.com___use-revolution
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Re: Is Transcript's English orientation a plus or minus?

[Dar Scott]

On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 03:34 AM, Frank Leahy wrote:

I think you're confusing the language (xTalk), with the development 
and runtime environment (call it HyperCard++ for the moment).  
HyperCard++ is a Rapid Application Development environment that uses 
the concepts of stacks, cards and controls to make it relatively easy 
to build complex multi-window applications.  xTalk, the language that 
is used to control this RAD, is a HyperTalk clone, but could 
(theoretically) be replaced with any number of other languages, e.g. 
C, JavaScript, VB, PHP, etc.
This is true.  I'd still be here if the language was graphical like 
that in LabView or was simple and powerful like Scheme.

Whatever language used should fit in and respect the environment of 
stacks and cards and controls and such.  There should be a synergy of 
some sort.

I often found in scripting that I wanted to switch to math notation 
(such as sigma), to embed tables to behave as functions and predicates, 
and to include unicode characters in line.

I like the naive view of values in Transcript.  I realize that it has 
some rough edges, but to the extent that it can keep concepts simple, 
that is good.

I suspect that as Transcript grows, it need not copy C or C++ or even 
Java, but can grow with rich abstractions and leave those in the dust.

Dar Scott

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Re: Transcript is flexible and requires me to make choices.

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 11:12 AM, tuviah snyder wrote:
Well in some frameworks/languages this is a feature..but it would 
greatly
improve engine speed to be able to resolve which object gets the 
message and
prepare the parameters at compile time for certain user defined
functions/handlers.enabling Rev to skip the process of looking up the
handler/function in a lookup table each time it is called

So I'm for any syntax which would enable me to precompile some 
functions
(such as math functions, ect) without losing the flexibility in cases 
where
I may want to dynamically intercept messages like mousemove in a 
backscript.
Kinda like in C++ where the virtual keyword changes how the 
functions-object lookups are done at runtime? (totally from memory; I 
never was a good C++ programmer)

--
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Re: Rev Review

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 4, 2004, at 2:33 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

I like your comments on ways to improve the RunRev Web site and would
encourage you to forward them to Lorin Rivers at <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> as 
I'm
sure that refining Web site is an ongoing interest.
Lorin Rivers was VP of Marketing for REAL Software (REALbasic)
Or is this a different Lorin Rivers?
--
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XML Documentation

I have been looking at the Runtime Revolution XML API it seems similar to expat and 
several others I have used.  However, I have failed to locate any examples or 
tutorials are there any? If so where might I find them?

K

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Re: OS X Standalone Prog Folder Problem?

[Rob Cozens]

I'm using Rev 2.1.2 under Mac OS X 10.3.2 to build an app.  If I run 
the app inside the development environment, or as a standalone 
Classic app, then it works fine.  However, if I run the OS X app 
built at the same time, then it fails to locate the support folder 
and files in the same folder as the app.
Hi Peter,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mac OS X application bundles.

Control click on your OS X stabdalone + select "Package Contents" 
reveals a folder, "Contents"

Inside "Contents" are:
Info.plist
pbdevelopment.plist
Pkginfo
A folder, "Resources", containing--
Revolution.rsrc
RevolutionDoc.icns
Revolution.icons
A folder, "Mac OS", containing--
Revolution [your standalone]
So if your standalone on other platforms expects to find the support 
folder in the same folder in which the standalone resides, your 
folder must be in the Mac OS folder on OS X.

I deal with this by using a generalized search handler that looks for 
support folders in both locations...among others.
--

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Transcript is flexible and requires me to make choices.

[tuviah snyder]

>
> On Feb 9, 2004, at 4:16 AM, Frank Leahy wrote:
>
> Richard wrote:
>>> What is the argument against the xTalk messaging model?
>
> I'll keep repeating it: the argument is you don't know at until runtime
> if the message goes where you think it will go. One way to state it is
> "throwing a message out for some object to catch, hopefully".
Well in some frameworks/languages this is a feature..but it would greatly
improve engine speed to be able to resolve which object gets the message and
prepare the parameters at compile time for certain user defined
functions/handlers.enabling Rev to skip the process of looking up the
handler/function in a lookup table each time it is called

So I'm for any syntax which would enable me to precompile some functions
(such as math functions, ect) without losing the flexibility in cases where
I may want to dynamically intercept messages like mousemove in a backscript.

Tuviah

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Re: REV and multimedia

[Christopher Mitchell]

I can give you a concrete reason why some of my Win only friends are 
edgy about having to install quicktime, and it is for the same reason I 
am edgy about having to install any product from Real media: there is, 
or at least has been in past installers, a tendency for QT to hijack 
media playing, and this is (again, an an older release) even with being 
careful about installation choices.

If you get too many people gunshy of installing your product because it 
either has given them experience of hijacking their media (whether by 
user error or not-quite-okay install script) then they're not going to 
change easily...

getting people to install anything when they have something 
"comparable" that works is like pulling teeth.  i've been trying to 
convince a friend of mine to try iTunes on Windows for several months 
now, but because of the a) quicktime installation required, and b) some 
weird thing that happened no his machine with it on the first time he 
ran it, he's preferring to stick with Winamp.  No amount of convincing 
him that he hasn't given it a fair shot or that QT installs very well 
on Win these days seems to make an effort, and so there is my story...

Yours,
Chris
On Feb 9, 2004, at 11:24 AM, Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote:
Why this big negative about using Apple technologies? Quicktime works 
well, and is free. All this Applephobia is getting really dumb. Does 
Sony think they will sell more videocams because they call Firewire 
iLink, even though Apple created it?

People should get over the fact that Apple developed almost every new 
computer technology over the last 15 years and get over it. All the PC 
companies had plenty of time to develop iPods, Wireless, utilize USB 
(I know apple didn't invent it but they were the first to embrace it), 
and they invented a Teleconferencing system that actually worked well 
(iSight).

All Windoze and Linux users have all benefited from Apple "raising the 
bar" and should admit it.


As far as multimedia is concerned, Revolution as a native support for 
Quicktime, clearly an Apple technology. Windows and Linux users are 
not so happy...

Claude
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Re: REV and multimedia

[Ian Wood]

Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote:

Why this big negative about using Apple technologies? Quicktime works 
well, and is free. All this Applephobia is getting really dumb. Does 
Sony think they will sell more videocams because they call Firewire 
iLink, even though Apple created it?
The FireWire name is a registered trademark of Apple, and until 
mid-2002 you had to pay Apple if you wanted to use the name.  You no 
longer have to pay, but you do need a free licence.  This is standard 
tactics for Apple, they make their technology available to others, but 
you usually have to pay for it in some way...  Maybe this is why Sony 
used the name iLink?
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/may/29firewireTA.html

Alex Rice wrote:

Quicktime is not available for Linux. Quicktime for Windows is a 16MB 
download.
For a shareware developer to require users to make a 16MB download 
could be a problem.
I's actually 11MB, but the principle still applies.  There is a 
shareware program that gets the QT browser plugin working on Linux, but 
ONLY the browser plugin.  And why should Linux users be penalised by 
spending $25 to get half the functionality that Win & Mac users get for 
free.  Until there is a QT for Linux I don't really regard it as truly 
cross-platform, even though it is my main development area.

My two Eurocents,

Ian Wood

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Re: Window resizing before open?

[Yves COPPE]

Le 9 févr. 04, à 17:23, Rob Cozens a écrit :

You might want to try seeing if you can create a resizing problem 
with the
IDE suspended.

When I have troubles with resizing stack window on Mac OS X, I simply 
"hide" the group 

it does appear altough I've hidden the mnnubar and the stack size is 
very good...

Groetjes.

Yves COPPE
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Re: REV and multimedia

[Pierre Sahores]

Le 9 févr. 04, à 18:39, Richard Gaskin a écrit :

Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote:

Why this big negative about using Apple technologies? Quicktime works
well, and is free.
...
All Windoze and Linux users have all benefited from Apple "raising
the bar" and should admit it.
Where is QuickTime for Linux?
About streaming : Darwin Streaming Server is available and about 
playing  back movies,  VideoLan is delivred with the same "sample.mov" 
file that comes with QTSS under OSX Server...
--
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Best, Pierre Sahores

100, rue de Paris
F - 77140 Nemours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

GSM:   +33 6 03 95 77 70
Pro:   +33 1 41 60 52 68
Dom:   +33 1 64 45 05 33
Fax:   +33 1 64 45 05 33
Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis
Applications et SGBD ACID SQL (WEB et PGI)
Penser et produire "delta de productivité"
Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores

100, rue de Paris
F - 77140 Nemours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:

Alex and original poster:  Don't give me an "Andy Ihnatko 
generalities", list these "factors."

Thanks, Alex...

Now can you tell me which thread to search; there are a lot of 
messages at the URL
The URL is to the exact message in question. Maybe someone's mail 
client added spaces. Remove the spaces from then end of the URL:

2004-February/030969.html


--
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Re: Would you have written it in time? was Re: mission critical apps

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 9:48 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:
You are quite welcome to deal with corporate idiots such as these, 
Alex, but let's not drag Transcript down to curry favor with 
no-nothings.
Sounds like politics to me. I am raising a hypothetical question. 
Suppose you were trying to bring xtalk apps into such an environment.

And, by the way, reliability is not an issue from my perspective. How 
long has the underlying MetaCard engine been on the market?
You've had 10 years to get up to speed with it. Naturally you are 
comfortable with it and it is not an issue for you.

--
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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Rob Cozens]

Alex and original poster:  Don't give me an "Andy Ihnatko 
generalities", list these "factors."

Thanks, Alex...

Now can you tell me which thread to search; there are a lot of 
messages at the URL
--

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 9, 2004, at 10:36 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

My question was:

  Can you think of a way to address those concerns while retaining
  the essential flavor of the language?
How would you like it to work, and have you submitted an enhancement 
request
for it?
I have no solutions. It cannot be solved by tweaking the language.

With xtalk you discover bugs at runtime. period.

With other tools you discover bugs at runtime, but also flush them out 
at compile time, and *design* them out beforehand through static typing 
and strict interfaces and function signatures.

This presents unique challenges for mission critical apps.

By it's very nature, runrev presents some unique challenges for 
producing reliable, quality code. Why try to gloss over these 
challenges, or dismiss them as part of the learning curve, as known 
issues, or as possible bugs? That's what you were doing with Frank 
Leahy's list of issues. But he can defend them if he cares to.

--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
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Re: Would you have written it in time? was Re: mission critical apps

[Rob Cozens]

I asked: "How are you going to sell xtalks in a corporate 
environment where reliability and correctness is _more important 
than programmer productivity_ ?"
Alex,

You're probably not; so those corporate environments, which never 
have & never will embrace cutting-edge technology until it is passe 
and replaced by new technology, will not be good target market places 
for Revolution for at least a decade..

How do you respond when a business owner or corporate executive tells 
you proudly about the great deal he/she got from IBM on a System 36 
four years after it was discontinued in favor of the AS/400?  As I 
said in a previous post, in my experience these types make 
unsatisfactory (and often unsatisfied) clients.

Anyone with a HyperCard legacy knows the story of the aviation 
company (North American?) with an HC application providing online 
schematics of all jet airliner parts to both the workers assembling 
the planes & the mechanics maintaining them.  At the time of the IHUG 
effort to keep Apple from pulling the plug on HyperCard, I contacted 
someone involved in the project and asked if the corporate CEO 
wouldn't like to contact Steve Jobs on HyperCard's behalf.  His 
response was:

"Top management hates HyperCard, because our application is the 
reason they cannot phase out all Apple computers.  Three times they 
have attempted to rewrite our system in Windows, and three times they 
have given up after pouring lots of money into the project without 
ever getting close to duplicating the HyperCard application's 
functionality."  [Amazing for a "beginner-ish" language, eh Frank. 
:{`)  ]

You are quite welcome to deal with corporate idiots such as these, 
Alex, but let's not drag Transcript down to curry favor with 
no-nothings.

And, by the way, reliability is not an issue from my perspective. 
How long has the underlying MetaCard engine been on the market?
--

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: Window resizing before open?

[Rob Cozens]

You might want to try seeing if you can create a resizing problem with the
IDE suspended.
Good suggestion, Scott.  I will do so.
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: REV and multimedia

[Klaus Major]

Hi all,

On Feb 9, 2004, at 10:24 AM, Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote:

Why this big negative about using Apple technologies? Quicktime works 
well, and is free.
Quicktime is not available for Linux.
That's sad but true :-(

But there might be light at the end of the tunnel :-)

This is from http://www.macosrumors.com/
(ok, it's a rumour, but sounds pretty cool ;-):
Tuesday, February 3

Apple's 10.4 "Linux initiative" could work both ways. Today's crop of 
new reports on
this topic not only provide considerable confirmation that Apple is 
indeed pondering
a "Linux adoption" move, but hint at an angle we haven't covered 
yet.It has been
suggested that Apple could gain quite a bit of attention and support 
from the
GNU/Linux/OSS communities by porting more of its key pieces of 
software to
Linux: Xcode, Rendezvous, QuickTime, iTunes, and iChat have all been
mentioned. More on this later in the week as we continue to analyze 
this
particularly tantalizing line of inquiry


Quicktime for Windows is a 16MB download.
For a shareware developer to require users to make a 16MB download 
could be a problem.
From the Apple QT page:

QuickTime 5 was downloaded over 100 million times by both Windows and 
Mac customers
in its first year. And QuickTime 6 is even more popular, reaching 175 
million downloads in
less than 18 months. Every day, more than 300,000 people download 
QuickTime...
So, where the heck are these millions of users?

I know people who ARE having trouble installing QT, but in all of the 
cases (i have seen!)
they were running win98/SE/ME and the system was totally due to a 
re-installation!!!

So in general, there are no reasons to not install QT on your pc...

But maybe someone should write a "libMCI" though :-D

Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
Regards

Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.major-k.de
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