RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
Deflection of discussion. What scares runrev people about exporting platform independent source code? I certainly hit a nerve. -Original Message- From: Alejandro Tejada capellan2...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:37 PM To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone Hi Chipp, Chipp Walters-2 wrote: I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with your brain. Have you not bothered listening to anything that has been said here or on the web? [snip] Actually, the jokes on me. You are clearly a troll. Not interested in any sort of logical discourse, only in stirring the pot. [snip] After reading Randall answers, i have concluded that many of you have been talking to one of his artificial inteligence experiments. Maybe an email bot that he programmed. There are certain patterns in his answers that result familiar. Where i have seen these kind of answers??? Then i remember, Chat bots developers use similar language patterns to program their answers. I saw these patterns, time ago, while porting a HyperCard stack to this platform: http://andregarzia.on-rev.com/alejandro/stacks/spectresmart.zip Many years ago, someone mentioned in this list that him/her/them was working in a revTalk port of ALICE. I just keep wondering if that project was completed sucessfully... Alejandro -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Check-out-Jerry-s-new-videos-tp2135722p2165001.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
Not true at all... Apple just needs access to source to insure safety and control over revenue schemes. If adobe would have opened its tech to inspection, apple would have welcomed it. What matters is the platform maintaining ultimate control and access over use and content channels. Does runrev want to compete at that level? No. So what is the problem? Let apple in. Give them what they want. Access to standardized source code. Certainly runrev would ask the same. Randall -Original Message- From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 10:33 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone Chipp Walters wrote: On May 10, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: The issue isn't whether Apple wants to outlaw reusing code libraries. They don't. They want to outlaw cross platform development. On May 10, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Bob Sneidar bobs at twft.com wrote: Really?? That is what Apple wants? Here's the guy Steve Jobs likes to point out is his mouthpiece, on the subject. http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/middleware_and_section_311 And from Mr. Jobs himself; the public spanking he gave Adobe linked to from the front page of apple.com applies to all cross-platform developers: We know from painful experience that letting a third party layer of software come between the platform and the developer ultimately results in sub-standard apps and hinders the enhancement and progress of the platform. If developers grow dependent on third party development libraries and tools, they can only take advantage of platform enhancements if and when the third party chooses to adopt the new features. We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers. This becomes even worse if the third party is supplying a cross platform development tool. The third party may not adopt enhancements from one platform unless they are available on all of their supported platforms. Hence developers only have access to the lowest common denominator set of features. Again, we cannot accept an outcome where developers are blocked from using our innovations and enhancements because they are not available on our competitors platforms. http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/ To the degree that those arguments apply at all to iPhone OS, they could also apply to OS X as well. But fortunately they don't hold much water under closer examination, as has been pointed out across the blogosphere and as many of us know from personal experience: 1. Without such cross-platform tools a minority OS might never have any apps at all across entire categories that are useful to its customers. 2. When an app that was written in Objective-C breaks, the motivation to address it promptly is only as strong as the sole developer's personal interest in it, but when a cross-platform tool has a bug there are thousands of developers demanding an immediate fix from the vendor of the tool they made it with. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Thoughts on Kevin's announcement
I would have loved to have instead heard apple's reaction to the prospect that runrev would output clean well formed objective C source that would be compiled in apples blessed and native IDE. Of course apple would want to developed its own xtalk environment for the ipad. They own the domain! They invented it! What did you think they would say? Nuts! -Original Message- From: Jerry Daniels jerry.dani...@me.com Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 10:46 AM To: How to Use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com; Improvements to Revolution improve-revolut...@lists.runrev.com Subject: Thoughts on Kevin's announcement As we all know, the very definition of a personal computer has changed radically over the last year. Personal computing devices are becoming more personal and more mobile. This transformation has accelerated dramatically in the last month. Every technology company on our little planet is changing the way they do business to accommodate this transformation. And so is Revolution. Shareholders chase growth, and everyone of us who have bought a license to Revolution desktop, On-Rev, or revMobile are, in effect shareholders. We don't want to be left behind. Kevin and team have shown their resilience and brilliance in the transformation department with their announcement today. They've adjusted their roadmap and their offering to keep us all in the game. They have my thanks, trust, and admiration. And my business going forward. I have done business with Kevin over the last decade as his contractor, vendor, customer and friend. I spent a few days with him and Mark in Edinburgh working on a project. We've broken bread, curry and haggis together. I known these guys. I like doing business with them and I like where they're going. I bought the great revMobile pre-alpha along with the conference, the DVDs, the works. I do not want or expect a refund just because a part it will not be delivered as hoped. Even if I had bought within the last 30 days I would not want anything. I'm getting a good product and value for my money. I have no concerns. I know I'll get preferential treatment with any new mobility platforms Kevin an Mark do. Best, Jerry Daniels Using Revolution technology to create iPad web apps: http://rodeoapps.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
Thank you... Well said. -Original Message- From: Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 12:09 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone Oh I see. I think it was the word outlaw that tripped me up. I guess if you see the iPad as an asset belonging to all of us, you would get the feeling that Apple is outlawing cross platform development. But I don't think any iPad but the one I buy belongs to me or anyone else. I don't see what Apple is doing as being monopolistic or engaging in Anti-trust. What they are trying to discourage is using tools to develop apps that can dramatically change the look and feel of their device, or affect stability, or lend themselves to obsolescence, or worse yet, to hinder advancements in the iPhone OS. Anyone remember how many times Microsoft said they were done with DOS, or how long Windows had to deal with the restrictions of the old hardware PC spec? Ball and chain comes to my mind. Like I said in another post, what would have happened if many of the apps originally written for the iPhone were so buggy they were causing kernel crashes all the time? Who would get the blame? Apple of course. Any attempt to defend themselves would have been deemed finger pointing. I for one am happy that we have building codes requiring building contractors to comply with ordinances. It means that the 6 story I work in is not coming down to the ground with just any old earthquake. I think of Apple's control over the software that ends up running on the iPhone exactly like those building codes. Bob On May 10, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Here's the guy Steve Jobs likes to point out is his mouthpiece, on the subject. http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/middleware_and_section_311 Chipp Walters CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc On May 10, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com wrote: Really?? That is what Apple wants? On May 10, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Josh, The issue isn't whether Apple wants to outlaw reusing code libraries. They don't. They want to outlaw cross platform development. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
Wow, the logic in your argument makes absolutely no sence and is in no way comparable in this context. To wit. The problem to which you allude is one of people attempting to build flash apps from C source. Of course thus would violate apples policy! But the discussion here is centered on the possibility of generating C source from rev stacks and then building apple compliant apps within the apple blessed IDE. No harm, no foul, no secret sneak. Rev, in this scenario would not be asserting any new external third party protocol into the app space. It would simple act as an app prototyping and sketch helper tool. Huge and incomparable difference! Randall -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:32 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone Not true. There was much web talk about this on various dev blogs and the consensus was Apple would definitely be able to create a tool to identify Flash apps created from C ported to Xcode. The reason is simple. even though Flash (and Rev) generates C code, they have to use their own C libraries to work with it. And these C libraries have unique footprints which can easily be detected. Once detected, it is easy to conclude they are in violation of SDK 4.0. And even if a better workaround was found, we're only a Apple license dot dot revision away from being excluded once again. I don't understand why this concept is so hard for folks to grasp? If Apple doesn't want you to develop on their platforms, then do like Adobe did and give up. Instead, focus on creating killer apps on other platforms. Sooner or later someone is bound to create another must have software product with a dev environment which is not Xcode. It just won't be able to be run on iPhones and ipads. My advice would be it's risky to do business with Apple. Earlier, I couldn't believe you could spend a year writing an iPhone app, just to have it rejected based on arbitrary conditions. At least with game consoles, they can pre-accept your idea and the final check is only a QA one. Now, with the latest 4.0 (not 3.0,2.0,1.0) SDK, it's obvious Apple can change their mind, midstream of your million dollar investment, and kill your company plan with an unprecedented dot dot license change limiting you to what original programming language is used. Who ever heard of such draconian development terms? Yes, to put trust in Apple as a partner these days is a risky business indeed. On May 9, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Josh Mellicker j...@dvcreators.net wrote: Of course, if you pasted the C code into Xcode and built your app there, there would be no way Apple could tell the code was not written in Xcode. Text is text. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
They can tell of course. But they can not dictate pre-compiled source. They just want in before and during the compilation process. -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:04 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone I'm sure what was in his mind was the right way around, and it is true to say that Apple can tell ARM code Apps that were originally Flash. It's likely they could tell ones that were from Rev too. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
No it isn't and I will be willing to bet a large sum that apple's only desire is to control the compiling process. That way they know what their devices will be running. And, importantly, they can not legally go beyond this level of control. What you guys are afraid of isn't being expressed openly and honestly but it has nothing to do with apple's dictates. -Original Message- From: Andre Garzia an...@andregarzia.com Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:09 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone Randall, What you fail to see again despite our insistence to tell you is that such tool to generate C code from Rev Stacks is precisely what is now forbidden by the new agreement. I am beginning to think that you can actually speak English or that my English is surprisingly awful because I've told you maybe SEVEN TIMES THIS WEEK ALONE that the new agreement prohibits generating C code from anything. The clause says originally written in Objective-C and not Cross compiled into Objective-C. The source of all this mayhem is the exact fact that we're legally bound to an agreement that prevents using any kind of generator program. Generators are not Apple Compliant no matter how many emails you send to this list, they will still be illegal. No matter how many times we tell you that you can't and you tell use that YES RANDALL CAN or that you know better, you still can't. There's an agreement, a contract and developer sign that thing___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
wrong -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:24 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: They can tell of course. But they can not dictate pre-compiled source. They just want in before and during the compilation process. They are trying to dictate precompiled source. That's the whole problem. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
This is a protocol war on the surface, a malware customer protection scheme, and a way to know exactly what code is running on its devices, and leaves the door open for intentional tracer code apple could insert that would allow run time reporting and surveillance of app functionality. What is at steak is seeing more than anyone else. Knowing more about what is going on in its devices than any third party code can know. Being the bottom most turtle. Give apple that and they won't care how you wrote the code. It is that simple. Ask steve. -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:24 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: They can tell of course. But they can not dictate pre-compiled source. They just want in before and during the compilation process. They are trying to dictate precompiled source. That's the whole problem. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
There is no technical reason that rev would have to export any pre-compiled code objects or libraries. Now, if what you aren't saying but meaning, is that rev would expose its internal data model and that this could expose the company to piracy of core IP, well that is an issue that should be expressed openly. The fact that any xtalk environment holds very little claim to deeply dependable IP is certainly true. When you don't own your core IP, the only option is to be better than other xtalk IDEs. The courts have repeatedly told apple that they too must compete through consumer choice because their IP claims are unfounded (xerox owns that). -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:40 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 6:21 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: No it isn't and I will be willing to bet a large sum that apple's only desire is to control the compiling process. Amongst the many companies still worried about all this is Unity3D. When you make iPhone apps with Unity, you do the compile using Xcode, from Objective-C source files. But in amongst that Objective-C is the Mono system, which is what is used to convert your C# or Javascript to control your 3D scene. Essentially the same situation Rev would be facing. So, as currently written, the agreement blocks Unity, regardless of the fact that it's being compiled in Xcode from Objective-C source. And, importantly, they can not legally go beyond this level of control And that might be part of the reason that the government will sue them. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
Exactly . And no, I am not confused. I have been more than careful to always use the word source when asking for C source output from rev. Source is text. Un-compiled source text. No confusion here. Try another straw man attack? -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 4:01 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 6:55 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: wrong You may have the mistaken idea that Objective-C is compiled code, but it's not, it's uncompiled source text, that then gets compiled to the processor on the device. Apple saying that you can only use certain languages is directly dictating what your code looks like before it's compiled. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
Should have read: ... deeply defend-able IP... Sorry. -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 4:16 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone There is no technical reason that rev would have to export any pre-compiled code objects or libraries. Now, if what you aren't saying but meaning, is that rev would expose its internal data model and that this could expose the company to piracy of core IP, well that is an issue that should be expressed openly. The fact that any xtalk environment holds very little claim to deeply dependable IP is certainly true. When you don't own your core IP, the only option is to be better than other xtalk IDEs. The courts have repeatedly told apple that they too must compete through consumer choice because their IP claims are unfounded (xerox owns that). -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:40 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 6:21 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: No it isn't and I will be willing to bet a large sum that apple's only desire is to control the compiling process. Amongst the many companies still worried about all this is Unity3D. When you make iPhone apps with Unity, you do the compile using Xcode, from Objective-C source files. But in amongst that Objective-C is the Mono system, which is what is used to convert your C# or Javascript to control your 3D scene. Essentially the same situation Rev would be facing. So, as currently written, the agreement blocks Unity, regardless of the fact that it's being compiled in Xcode from Objective-C source. And, importantly, they can not legally go beyond this level of control And that might be part of the reason that the government will sue them. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
I have expanded that. You should read my posts before responding. Io even atomized on several occasions why apple wants in at the source level. Try yet another straw man attack. -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 4:26 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Exactly . And no, I am not confused. I have been more than careful to always use the word source when asking for C source output from rev. Source is text. Un-compiled source text. No confusion here. Try another straw man attack? Now i'm confused. You're pleading for Rev to output C source, presumably to comply with Apple's demands, but you also say that Apple isn't dictating what is used as source. If Apple are not dictating what source should be like, why have a C stage? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
And the sky is falling too! You have to get your mind around the motivations behind apple's demands. Do that and you won't have to move to idaho and build a bomb bunker. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:06 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with your brain. Have you not bothered listening to anything that has been said here or on the web? The whole point of the license is to make sure developers used Apple's and only Apple's tools. What part of that is hard to understand? Actually, the jokes on me. You are clearly a troll. Not interested in any sort of logical discourse, only in stirring the pot. I had heard you were thrown off the SuperCard list for similar behavior. Chipp Walters CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc On May 9, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: No it isn't and I will be willing to bet a large sum that apple's only desire is to control the compiling process. That way they know what their devices will be running. And, importantly, they can not legally go beyond this level of control. What you guys are afraid of isn't being expressed openly and honestly but it has nothing to do with apple's dictates. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone
And why would they? What is apples motivation? Is it to piss everyone off? Is it to appear anti-competitive? Is it to kill innovation? Is it a vendetta against xtalk or other programming languages? Look at it this way... Lets say a some terrorists take out the world trade centers with commercial jets. You know they are all middle eastern. Do you stop all middle eastern looking people from traveling? Well you would have to if you didn't have scanners. With scanners you can bypass a person's appearance and only hassle those holding weapons. By having access to source in one language, apple can scan apps to insure safety and other apple specific interests and still allow everyone to free to move about the airplane. Randall -Original Message- From: Brian Yennie bri...@qldlearning.com Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 7:40 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos -- REV to ObjC - iPhone Josh, Except, if a tool like Rev were generating the code to paste in, it would inevitably contain large portions of identical code across projects. Apple could easily ban any app that matches those very clear signatures. On May 8, 2010, at 11:28 PM, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: RevMobile before it seems was going generate c# sources? Strange choice as for me. Main engine should go to C, Some parts of REV project also to C And GUI part of REV project to ObjC - Cocoa. This is forbidden by the new license. There can be no translations. All work must be created originally by Apple-specified tools. Of course, if you pasted the C code into Xcode and built your app there, there would be no way Apple could tell the code was not written in Xcode. Text is text. I've compared Revtalk and C a little bit and there are some code structures that are so similar translation would be easy (if then, switch). Chunk expressions are an example of something that would not translate, so there would have to be a special set of handlers that split strings and returned items, and in Revtalk you'd need to call these functions rather than using the stock ones to make the C output feasible. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. But my god. A solution that complicated, with that many stacked conditions and contingencies can't actually be considered a solution to anything. The cloud is simply a scheme to get other people to provide services so that you don't have to, and to get people to think they need services they can't understand and therefore need. Have you ever really tried to live by web apps? That is the day you wish you had a hard disk with an application running on it on a standard computer. Apps are locally stored that way. G3 ain't wide band. Wireless ain't ethernet. Ethernet ain't a system bus. A client side cookie ain't an application in memory. End arounds aren't solutions. -Original Message- From: Peter Alcibiades palcibiades-fi...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 2:30 AM To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos OK, just to be clear, is this how it is? -- If you have subscribed to the on-rev hosting service, you can then write and host pages on it, using any text editor, which will allow any web browser to run your web apps, but only (at least at the moment) from the on-rev server run by Rev itself. -- if you have the desktop rev-web client, you can debug the pages you have written for the rev-web hosting service, online. However, you don't have to have this to run and manage the pages. -- If you have revBrowser, you can display any web pages in Rev stacks. -- if you have the browser plugin, you can run revlets, ie stacks you've compiled for the web, in the browser with that plugin, and these can be hosted anyplace you can get anyone to host them, including locally. Is that how it goes? So if you're running and writing for Linux, you can write pages for the rev-web server, and they will run in any browser on any OS including Linux, but the only way to do that is by subscribing to the hosting service. The rest of it, you cannot do any of it. Well, not quite right, you can develop and compile for the web, but then you can't use what you have made from the system you developed it on. Peter -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Check-out-Jerry-s-new-videos-tp2135722p2135989.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
If you don't need to output C than you don't output c. I don't need gif output but photshop allows it for those that do... -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 12:31 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On May 8, 2010, at 2:12 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: If Jerry can pull off an english-like page description interpreter, my eyes are wide open and excited. What I have always wanted is a browser that goes way beyond view source, allowing instead an edit mode that allows direct manipulation of page elements in vitro. Editing might mean resizing a box or the width of a column simply by dragging it. It might mean typing an english command bigger font in the title, no, twice as big as the body text. It might mean talking while dragging this video should fade to black as it ends. But a first step is developing the translation semantics that work between the base description protocol (XML, HTML5, PostScript, Flash, what ever) and what people do and say when they want things to change. I applaud Jerry's effort in this direction!! Yes, this indeed seems the direction Jerry and Sarah are headed. And from the early stage indications, quite exciting! My only frustration is that Rodeo (and other high level solutions) might remove the impetus for RunRev or some xtalk environment to provide a smooth development ramp from the very human xtalk and the very inhuman C and other industry standard binding languages that allow universal publishing to any (or most any) hardware/OS platform. Exporting source in C would allow xtalk developers to work as humans and publish directly to industry standard compilers. I'm not anymore a frequent visitor of this list, but I can't remember such a feature being asked for in the past. Frankly, I wouldn't want a bunch of converted C code. I certainly wouldn't know what to do with it. The reason I chose Rev is so I wouldn't have to learn C. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
Really, I can edit my web page in the browser just by drawing and dragging? Wrong. -Original Message- From: Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 1:56 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On 8 May 2010, at 21:28, Michael Kann mikek...@yahoo.com wrote: Randall Reetz: What I have always wanted is a browser that goes way beyond view source, allowing instead an edit mode that allows direct manipulation of page elements in vitro. Your wish is my command: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1843 Or turning on the debug menu in Safari, then right-click on anything in the page and 'inspect element'. It's been a few years since all a browser would do was show you the source code. Ian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
I made no such claims. I said that such output capacity wouldn't interfere with day to day xtalk use. I write artificial intelligence. I have always used xtalk. It allows me to think and create using the same cognitive resources. It would not be trivial to get runrev to export C source. But it would be invaluable to users and to the longevity and reach of the runrev product and market. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 2:17 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos I take it, by reading your plethora of rather uninformed posts, you're not a technical person. So, it's understandable you would compare creating an Xtalk to C translator as trivial as exporting an image in GIF format. The fact is, it's not. If you think this is a marketable idea, then by all means run with it. You'll want to hire someone technical to help guide you. Chipp Walters CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc On May 8, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: If you don't need to output C than you don't output c. I don't need gif output but photshop allows it for those that do... ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
Lynn, we havwebeen a huge difference of opinion. Huge! Please plot runrev into the future as you see it. Then tell us why you see it that way and the motivations that support this opinion. -Original Message- From: Lynn Fredricks lfredri...@proactive-intl.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 2:55 PM To: 'How to use Revolution' use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Check out Jerry's new videos resources. It would not be trivial to get runrev to export C source. But it would be invaluable to users and to the longevity and reach of the runrev product and market. It would definitely have an effect, but it may not be the best use of Rev resources. AFAIK, there are multiple bits of Rev in Rev and also in C/C++ precompiled chunks that go into a stack. I think it would be a nightmare sorting all that out on top of just a plain code generator. I believe there was a REALbasic-to-C or C++ generator produced by a third party, but I believe it flopped as a product. If you are working in artificial intelligence, you'd probably benefit from some of your project being compiled as an external. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
I made no such comparison. Period. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 3:14 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On May 8, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: I made no such claims. You did compare the two and I responded to your comparison. I said that such output capacity wouldn't interfere with day to day xtalk use. I have no idea what that means. I write artificial intelligence. Maybe I've read some of your books? I have always used xtalk. Great. I'm fond of RevTalk. It allows me to think and create using the same cognitive resources. You mean your brain? We're alike in that way- I use mine often as well. It would not be trivial to get runrev to export C source. Yes, we're again agreed on this point. That's two! But it would be invaluable to users and to the longevity and reach of the runrev product and market. Ack. There's the rub. Just because you believe it invaluable for yourself, doesn't make it invaluable to Rev. And the fact it is not yet any sort of current option would prove Rev's not that interested, for if they really thought they could make money with it, they would prioritize the feature. We've established you like xtalk. Why don't you spearhead a project to convert xtalk to C? I suspect, with your skills in writing books on AI, you could also include a really nice manual. Best of luck! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
Chip, please take my post, and show how I made the comparison you are claiming I made. Show us all. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 3:14 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On May 8, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: I made no such claims. You did compare the two and I responded to your comparison. I said that such output capacity wouldn't interfere with day to day xtalk use. I have no idea what that means. I write artificial intelligence. Maybe I've read some of your books? I have always used xtalk. Great. I'm fond of RevTalk. It allows me to think and create using the same cognitive resources. You mean your brain? We're alike in that way- I use mine often as well. It would not be trivial to get runrev to export C source. Yes, we're again agreed on this point. That's two! But it would be invaluable to users and to the longevity and reach of the runrev product and market. Ack. There's the rub. Just because you believe it invaluable for yourself, doesn't make it invaluable to Rev. And the fact it is not yet any sort of current option would prove Rev's not that interested, for if they really thought they could make money with it, they would prioritize the feature. We've established you like xtalk. Why don't you spearhead a project to convert xtalk to C? I suspect, with your skills in writing books on AI, you could also include a really nice manual. Best of luck! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
I have asked before. I will ask again. Who on this list is are stakeholder with runrev? I would like to know when I am getting direct line from the company and when I am simply talking to another xtalk user/developer. -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 3:30 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Check out Jerry's new videos Chip, please take my post, and show how I made the comparison you are claiming I made. Show us all. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 3:14 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On May 8, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: I made no such claims. You did compare the two and I responded to your comparison. I said that such output capacity wouldn't interfere with day to day xtalk use. I have no idea what that means. I write artificial intelligence. Maybe I've read some of your books? I have always used xtalk. Great. I'm fond of RevTalk. It allows me to think and create using the same cognitive resources. You mean your brain? We're alike in that way- I use mine often as well. It would not be trivial to get runrev to export C source. Yes, we're again agreed on this point. That's two! But it would be invaluable to users and to the longevity and reach of the runrev product and market. Ack. There's the rub. Just because you believe it invaluable for yourself, doesn't make it invaluable to Rev. And the fact it is not yet any sort of current option would prove Rev's not that interested, for if they really thought they could make money with it, they would prioritize the feature. We've established you like xtalk. Why don't you spearhead a project to convert xtalk to C? I suspect, with your skills in writing books on AI, you could also include a really nice manual. Best of luck! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
That runrev could export C source would in no way interfere with the ongoing activity of runrev users (should they choose not to export their stacks into C source). The capacity to output C SOURCE WOULD OPEN THE REACH OF REV USERS TO ALMOST ANY PLATFORM AND IN A PROFESSIONAL LEVEL. CODE COMPILED IN C RUNS WAY WAY WAY FASTER IN ALMOST ALL SITUATIONS. BYTE CODE IS SLOW IN COMPARISON. INTERPRETED EVEN MORE SO. (SORRY ABOUT THE UPPERCASE... MY PHONE IS STUCK). -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 3:14 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On May 8, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: I made no such claims. You did compare the two and I responded to your comparison. I said that such output capacity wouldn't interfere with day to day xtalk use. I have no idea what that means. I write artificial intelligence. Maybe I've read some of your books? I have always used xtalk. Great. I'm fond of RevTalk. It allows me to think and create using the same cognitive resources. You mean your brain? We're alike in that way- I use mine often as well. It would not be trivial to get runrev to export C source. Yes, we're again agreed on this point. That's two! But it would be invaluable to users and to the longevity and reach of the runrev product and market. Ack. There's the rub. Just because you believe it invaluable for yourself, doesn't make it invaluable to Rev. And the fact it is not yet any sort of current option would prove Rev's not that interested, for if they really thought they could make money with it, they would prioritize the feature. We've established you like xtalk. Why don't you spearhead a project to convert xtalk to C? I suspect, with your skills in writing books on AI, you could also include a really nice manual. Best of luck! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
That is funny. Maybe I should wait even longer... for iphone 10. -Original Message- From: Scott Rossi sc...@tactilemedia.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 4:31 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On May 8, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: BYTE CODE IS SLOW IN COMPARISON. INTERPRETED EVEN MORE SO. (SORRY ABOUT THE UPPERCASE... MY PHONE IS STUCK). CUPERTINO, CA. Today, Apple Inc announced that it will no longer accept input of lowercase letters on its mobile devices. CEO Steve Jobs has written a public statement (all caps) stating the reasoning behind Apple's recent character removal was to lessen energy demands Apple's iPhone OS. Developers are furious and fear that punctuation may be targeted next. Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, UX Design ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Check out Jerry's new videos
Sarah, would you please show us what rodeo LIST would look like. I would like to see a sample of the new language I rodeo users would be expected to learn. Is there a current scripting or markup language or API that would serve the purpose of comparison for now? How about an example that would show small circles bouncing around billiard-like and reacting to the presence of eachother (collision and exaggerated gravity). Maybe add in acceleration and tilt as user inputs. Thanks, Randall -Original Message- From: Sarah Reichelt sarah.reich...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 4:38 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Check out Jerry's new videos On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Peter Alcibiades palcibiades-fi...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Peter, you don't need the On-Rev client app to use On-Rev. But don't you need the browser plug-in to use the pages you've made? For instance, I seemingly can't get to the parts of your site that are Rev based, because of no plug-in. Or is this a mistake? My web site is entirely built using On-Rev, mainly as a custom CMS, so I can edit it easily using just text files and the content gets formatted automatically. There are a few revlets available which you will not be able to access, but they are mainly for demonstration purposes and not actually a functional part of the web site. If there is anything else that you cannot access, I would really like to know what, so I can try to fix it. Can you step through it, you want to make a web app, usable through the browser, either on the local machine or on a local server, or on the On-Rev server. What bits exactly do you have to use from Rev? The actual Rodeo desktop editor will be built in Rev and the web apps will rely on using On-Rev servers to do the conversions from the Rodeo scripting to HTML/CSS/Javascript. Cheers, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
Thank you robert. Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and technical feasibility of rev outputting C source. Lets start with the fact that the best compilers are written for C. That these compilers are industry standards and that it could be argued, the epicenter of computing. I think xtalk is a more human environment for the writing of logic, and that C is that same thing for computers them selves. A match made in heaven! Create in rev, test, prototype, deploy in casual situations, and then when everything is ready for the big leagues (or when nothing else is possible) export C source (customized as per target platform). At this point, pay runrev what their efforts are worth... A lot! Enter into an equity sharing contract or pay a big publishing fee. Everyone is happy. Randall -Original Message- From: Robert Mann r...@free.fr Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:21 AM To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Man.. let us read... 3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited). Let's start reading ... A few definitions : API's - is an interface implemented by a software program which enables it to interact with other software (same language or foreign languages). PLease note that the 3.3.1 DOES NOT state documented API by Apple!! and refers to PRiVATE APIs. Litterally speaking PUBLIC APIs like google maps etc.. do not fall in!! There are some feras expressed that an expanded interpretation of this clause would embrace all forms of organized libraires writen in C or C++ that could be incorporated by a programmer to better structure his program. I cannot see how this interpretation can hold. As well as I cannot understand the fuss about ORIGINALLY WRITTEN in c.. because this is unenforceable legally... I guess that Originally written in Steve's mind means in that context hand written, not just output by a machine... But, from a legal point of view nobody can restrain the way you think, work, produce your code. Steve cannot forbid the use of any form or helping tool, 3rd party documentation, copying/pasting of functions from here or there, or software robot, intermediate layer, provided it delivers some x code : nobody can restrain this freedom. The copyright law protects only the materialization of ideas, never the ideas themselves, nor the processes, not the methods. And programming has been clearly associated to writing. So nobody (even Stevie..) can (LEGALLY - ei enforceable in court) dictate how the hell you produce your damned x Code libraries. So I support the argument that the only way that originally written in c can be interpreted is at some stage materially visible and editable in C or C++ in the XCode environment whatever steps have occured before, as these prior steps are immaterial. The limit would be if for instance revMobile produced X Code in two parts : a) the actual stack application code and b) alongside a set of home made runrev librarires writen in C or C++ that would be neccessary, part A) calling part b). My conviction is that even in that situation, a legal action by Apple would not succeed on the ground of 3.3.1. But I guess anyhow Apple has a full discretionnary power to allow apps or not in their APP store, SO FAR, so yes they could easily tell your app uses a set of runrev libraries we de not like.. It is likely you use runrev as a production tool and we do not like it.. be bye! Or tell you nothing, just NO! But I cannot see them as plain evil, just like that. They seem to have plans for the future and have reasons to enforce the c++ or c and Xcode compiler. But they do not seem to have any interest to go further than that___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
What about that, can apple control apps written for one's own use? For limited in-house distribution and deployment? What about free apps? What about for-profit sales but with no need for the app store? -Original Message- From: René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 10:27 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Peter, Yes, I understand for all developpers who want to distribute inside the AppStore. It is not my case... I said that few weeks ago. I create tools for me, and I want create tools on iPad witch is, I think, a fabulous thing... I understand also that RunRev don't invest only for people like me, we are not numerous enough... This is my problem... or not... Bon souvenir de Paris René Le 7 mai 2010 à 18:06, Peter Alcibiades a écrit : Rene, you are asking the wrong question probably. Suppose you find some way to bypass the technical legal wording of the restriction. It is not going to help. You are dealing with a policy which is backed up by the power of Apple to reject any app, or any developer, for any, or for no, reason. So, find a way around it legally, use it, then get caught due to some coding change in the tools that you should be using, in their view, which leaves a signature, which your app now does not have, and you get banned. So your investment is up in smoke. It is not going to work. As long as Apple has the mechanism of the App store, and control over the tools that it wants used, it can lay traps. And remember, Apple does not care how many false positives it generates. It just tells you to go away, and you're out. The smart thing to do is respect their policy. As Richard says, that is unfortunately going to mean the policy that is in effect at this particular hour and day. If it changes tomorrow, well, get ready to respect that one too. This is what causes, and is maybe designed to cause, the pinch for small businesses. Either you are in the camp, and you follow the rules, and you become sort of part of an Apple extended family, and you put in all the effort it takes to keep up, or you are out. I know organic farmers in the UK who refuse to supply supermarkets. Yes, they can sell a lot of stuff to them. But they don't want to be owned by one. So they take lower margins and greater uncertainty and sell through a variety of channels. In the end, they feel, its safer and more sustainable than having the markets always make you offers you cannot refuse. Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice. I don't know. But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by the rules. There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the bottleneck. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/How-exactly-does-runrev-for-ipad-iphone-work-tp2133661p2134443.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my choices. I chose xtalk because it is human. That choice has its share of negative fallout. So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms. At this stage of flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme. I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options. -Original Message- From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Thank you robert. Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and technical feasibility of rev outputting C source. No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can do here. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
Which of you are runrev stakeholders? Cause the this discussion seems important. To both the product and the market for runrev. -Original Message- From: Matthias Rebbe runrev260...@m-r-d.de Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 12:18 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall! Maybe, but please not on this list anymore until Runrevs response on Monday. Thank you very much! Matthias Am 07.05.2010 um 21:08 schrieb Randall Lee Reetz: Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my choices. I chose xtalk because it is human. That choice has its share of negative fallout. So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms. At this stage of flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme. I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options. -Original Message- From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Thank you robert. Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and technical feasibility of rev outputting C source. No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can do here. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
When should we voice our opinions and desires, work through the issues facing this market... after runrev has announced its product architecture? That seems a little Jobs-sonian and backwards. -Original Message- From: Matthias Rebbe runrev260...@m-r-d.de Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 12:18 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall! Maybe, but please not on this list anymore until Runrevs response on Monday. Thank you very much! Matthias Am 07.05.2010 um 21:08 schrieb Randall Lee Reetz: Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my choices. I chose xtalk because it is human. That choice has its share of negative fallout. So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms. At this stage of flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme. I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options. -Original Message- From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Thank you robert. Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and technical feasibility of rev outputting C source. No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can do here. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source translator. If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the user to end up with an apple complient app. Better yet, offer this as a service. Rev user would upload stacks to rev's site which would handle the conversion. Adobe cares about the format of its protocol. Rev doesn't or shouldn't. The whole point should be supposing a pathway from rev to iphad app. The tool doesn't matter. Emulate all you want on the rev user end. But output shouldn't need to be under rev user control. I know I don't care how my stack becomes an app. -Original Message- From: Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:52 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? How about distribution rights? Are those unlocked? If Rev or someone wanted to distribute Apple's iphad IDE could they? Randall On May 6, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Randall Reetz wrote: If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down. Count on it. But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving the blessed IDE away. It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom. In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for development is available without cost to anything but your time. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
-Original Message- From: Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:02 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join some APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE. It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far beyond what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and Windows developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google developers and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example of true cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice. PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR PERSONAL VENDETTAS. I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's wrong. I don't care what your damn opinions are. JUST STOP Tom McGrath On May 6, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: What do you think RevMobile is? It does exactly THAT. It's just that Jobs doesn't allow for THAT. On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote: Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source translator. If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the user to end up with an apple complient app. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: US Fed Trade Commission Investigation
Thomas, I have looked at your web life. You seem to make a life of hating things. I don't think anyone here is hating steve jobs. What is happening is a realization that bad decisions can be made by anyone. What we want is the same openness from steve your libertarian stance demands everywhere else. Do you own a lot of apple stock? -Original Message- From: Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:01 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: US Fed Trade Commission Investigation I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join some APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE. It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far beyond what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and Windows developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google developers and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example of true cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice. PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR PERSONAL VENDETTAS. I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's wrong. I don't care what your damn opinions are. JUST STOP Tom McGrath On May 6, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: I am no yoga guy, never tried it, but Steve really needs a week at a yoga retreat. My parents were at an anti-war protest in San Francisco back in the George W. days. An elderly lady was carrying a sign that read, Will someone please give Bush a B___ Job! Randall Reetz On May 6, 2010, at 12:48 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: What about HTML 5 and web content as a runRev stack publication option? What does HTML 5 say about mobile devise specific input like orientation, acceleration, position, multi-touch? Randall On May 6, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/05/03/apple-could-be-targeted-by-antitrust-suit-us-federal-trade-commission-investing-apple-regarding-the-programming-language-controversy/ On May 6, 2010, at 12:19 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: What Andre has been trying to tell you, is it is IMPOSSIBLE to run scripts or interpreted code on the iPhoneOS. This has been the case from the very start and is widely known and not much debated. The original reason given for this was to prevent malware, but I suspect it also is seen as a way to get around having to pay for an app at the AppStore. I would suggest you consider reading up on the goings on of this case before you try it at the Supreme Court. Chipp Walters CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc On May 6, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE) and be done with it. Then the question is how to distribute runrev generated stacks for the iphad? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
Really? It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C source. Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an app in the apple blessed IDE? How would apple know or care where the app spent its early years? I don't think that is how revmobile works. Not exactly. Am I wrong? Does a revmoblile user have to have a mac running the apple blessed IDE? -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:01 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? What do you think RevMobile is? It does exactly THAT. It's just that Jobs doesn't allow for THAT. On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote: Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source translator. If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the user to end up with an apple complient app. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: US Fed Trade Commission Investigation
Well I disagree. Almost completely. I value openness and full disclosure. I value rhetoric free discussions digging down to truth, not influence and spin. I don't require a purchase in exchange for truth and transparency. -Original Message- From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 4:56 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: US Fed Trade Commission Investigation Randall Lee Reetz, who has once accused everyone on this list of drinking the Rev cool-aid, wrote: Thomas, I have looked at your web life. You seem to make a life of hating things. Dude, please. I've known Thomas for many, many years, and have been as impressed with his growth as a developer as I have with his character as a man. On most days, his contributions are only of the most positive sort, focusing on helping people find good solutions to the problems they face. He also donates a lot of code and tools to the community, and for all that we really like him. Sure, he's fed up with the off-topic stuff. I think we all indulge a bit much, and if not Thomas than Heather would have come down as well. And sure, we all have a dog in this race, so we're all likely to get a little excitable now and then in response to this unusual disruption from Apple and its implications for our work. But I wouldn't call Thomas a hater, and I don't think this list is the best place for such character attacks. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
When I start any project, I think for a while, I write some things down, I draw some flow charts, I go on a bike ride, I talk to people, I write a paper prototype, and then I code. -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 5:12 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? On May 6, 2010, at 8:04 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Really? It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C source. Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an app in the apple blessed IDE? How would apple know or care where the app spent its early years? With your example workflow they would have no way to know where the app started its early years, but you would still have gone against the agreement, because it didn't originate as Objective-C. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
I read your note richard. It is very detailed and differs substantially from another person's explanation which said it works exactly as I have guessed, translating to C source. Just trying to get to the actual method as that might allow compliance. -Original Message- From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 5:22 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall wrote: Really? It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C source. Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an app in the apple blessed IDE? How would apple know or care where the app spent its early years? I don't think that is how revmobile works. Not exactly. Am I wrong? You're iPhone seems to be preventing you from reading many of the posts here. This has been addressed before, twice just today - here's one: http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/139234.html The rest of the archives from this list are available here: http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/date.html In the interest of bandwidth I won't answer that question any more. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
Yes, this is why I am suggesting that rev output C source that can be opened within the blessed IDE. Apple wants control at that level. I am sure this is so that its compiler can insert com checks and interrupts for ads and tracking of monetary unit exchange. So if that is what apple wants, give it up. An xtalk to C source translator presents soo many opportunities. Endless. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 7:39 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall, Hopefully the following can lend some perspective to you on this situation. Previously, I misspoke. RevMobile compiles Rev code to an iPhone standalone, which then can be run on the Mac only iPhone simulator. If you sign up for RevMobile, you must also purchase a $99 Apple developer license and of course have a Mac to run it on. The key here is that RevMobile compiles to an iPhone compatible binary, just like the latest CS5 Flash application does (or did, as Adobe has formally pulled the plug on supporting the iPhone compiler). And just like Flash CS5, the newly compiled code successfully bypasses the PREVIOUS license limitation of no interpreted code-- even though many games evidently use Lua scripts within them. Not sure what Apple thinks of that: http://blog.anscamobile.com/2010/04/lua-the-lingua-franca-of-iphone-games/ So, while Rev (and Flash and many other dev platforms for iPhone) compile directly to a binary, they are still in violation of the NEW SDK 4.0 recently released license which now states: Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs So, now binary and compiled apps not originally written in Objective-C, C, C++ will not be accepted by Apple. Platforms which deliver Javascript (web browser) apps, like PhoneGap are still allowed. A legal interpretation of the SDK 4.0 as currently written pretty much puts Flash, and Rev, and many others, out of the business of app development for iPhone/iPad. So, originally Apple wanted to discourage interpreted languages, like Revtalk, Actionscript, and others from access to the iPhone. Of course all the companies understood the rules, and many, like Rev, spent major resources, and time trying to comply by creating compatible standalone binaries. Not an insignificant task. And none of them, or their customers, or their customers customers had any notion the rules would or even could change. As soon as Jobs saw the new Flash CS5 (in the form of Flash CS5-- of which I'm told there are already a hundred of so apps in the AppStore under the previous SDK license), he rewrote the license to make sure none of these applications could now be used. I say Jobs and not Apple, because if you have followed this closely, you would know Jobs is the one behind it all. Whether or not you agree with him is up to you. On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote: Really? It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C source. Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an app in the apple blessed IDE? How would apple know or care where the app spent its early years? I don't think that is how revmobile works. Not exactly. Am I wrong? Does a revmoblile user have to have a mac running the apple blessed IDE? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
Yes, I have read it several times. But apple is grasping here. What matters is what they are motivated by (what is behind the rule). Apple is getting bad press and worse. They want a solution that doesn't cause a riot. So I ask again, what would it take to export C source? That way apple can keep its fingers in everything (i think that is what thay are after). And rev shouldn't care. Adobe does, but rev shouldn't. Win win win. Apple says providence but means access at the compiler stage. That is my bet. Anyone at rev asked jobs this yet? -Original Message- From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 10:08 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? Randall Reetz wrote: But nobody has answered my proposal. Why not write an xtalk to C source (not binary or byte code) translator? Now it's four times: http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/139296.html keyword: provenance -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
I disagree. The federal trade commission will disagree. Apple is up a tree on this one. They might be able to say the source has to be run through their compiler, but they can't demand that it is written on their typewriters. So if you show them that you will give them access to pre-compiled source, they will be more then happy. They aren't trying to sell their IDE. They just want in at the source code level. I would too. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 10:30 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work? It's not about axes to grind-- it's just about business. Apple has stated they don't want cross platform dev tools for iPhone. Period. Why would Rev consider trying to go around their wishes without their expressed consent? Let's take an example. Say you're Adobe's CEO, and you just finished spending millions of dollars building CS5 for Flash. It compiles beautifully into fast iPhone compatible binaries and now you believe you have a great authoring environment for iPhone which will sell millions of copies. But, Apple goes out of it's way to rewrite their licensing terms JUST so THAT doesn't happen. So, you're sitting in a 'What's next?' meeting and someone tells you: You know, we can modify our CS5 compiler to spit out Xcode compatible C and it will only take another year and another million bucks. What do you do? Apple's made it pretty clear they'll do whatever it takes to keep you off their platform. If you say, Go ahead, then I would fire you, as would all of your shareholders. Chipp Walters CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc On May 7, 2010, at 12:01 AM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: Adobe has an axe to grind. Rev doesn't, (or does it?). Rev needs to be nimble and adaptive, play nice… the benevolent parasite. Randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Ok, maybe the ipad path is a virtual machine that runs rev stacks that are encapsulated within an apple compliment shell? Rev could distribute an ipad runner app and or a wrapper app that sucks stacks into the iphad RevWrapper (with or without runner included). Is there such a thing as app assigned document in the iphad gestalt? -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 10:17 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Really, there is no use of flash in the rev source or output? At all? Where did I get that idea? How are rev stacks exported as executables on the iphone ipad platform? If they are converted at some point to C source then it would be entirely possible to set up a publication service that allows rev users to submit stacks formatted for the iphad (conformed byte code) and shoot them through the apple blessed IDE / compiler. No? Am I smoking something? Seems do-able. Randall -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 9:50 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On May 4, 2010, at 12:32 AM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: I always thought it was smart that rev tied into flash. Allowed a path onto the web. Xtalk and flash share some deep object and widget similarities. But I am a bit confused as to how rev and flash are integrated. Anyone point me to a doc or web page or tube video that explains rev's flash integration? Can you point to the message here that talked about Flash and Rev being integrated? The only connection between the two that I know of is that they are both victims of Apple changing the iPhone SDK agreement. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue)
Wow, I completely disagree. Apps aren't apples. Apps are apples and oranges and anteaters. The basis of your argument is that materials have more to do with desire than the finished product. That would be akin to art historians only comparing art by the paint used. That steve jobs is up to something bigger than his words imply is obvious. There was a time when he had a conscience (in the person of the Woz). There was a time when Jobs espoused absolute openness (even all board meetings and payroll was open to all employees at next). But I do think that all of this has to do with a fed up reaction to the north korea of software houses: adobe. It is just too bad he didn't come right out and say it... -Original Message- From: Michael Kann mikek...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:06 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue) Richard, Did you catch the misleading use of logic in Steve's anti-Flash explanation? He outlined a scenario whereby third-party developers would become dependent on Flash, thereby causing problems when Apple innovated faster than Adobe. But think it through. The only reason that third-party developers would become dependent on Flash would be if they could sell enough of their products to make it worthwhile. That dependency only means that people want to buy products made with Flash (or RunRev). If it were true that the products where somehow inferior then the consumers would figure it out and the developers would soon switch over also. So the quality protection explanation is completely bogus. (Which you already know I'm sure). Mike --- On Tue, 5/4/10, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com wrote: From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Subject: Re: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue) To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 9:56 AM Kay C Lan wrote: To that I say, let it happen, let market forces play out, let capitalism do it's thing. Amen. I can't help but wonder if underlying all of this may be that Steve Jobs doesn't have faith in Apple's ability to deliver an unquestionably superior experience. He writes about how multi-platforms apps -- such as the ones we Rev folks make for the desktop -- lower the quality of the user experience. If that were the case to any degree that mattered, people simply wouldn't buy our apps, and would instead choose a truly native alternative. But in practice I see two factors that support using a middleware engine like Rev: 1. The quality difference is not significant enough to matter to users. My Rev-based app got a 4.5-out-of-5 review at not just any mag, but MacWorld, where the reviewer, editorial director Jason Snell, knows a thing or two about Mac UI conventions. His review never mentioned that the text in my tab controls is one pixel lower than spec. Instead, he lauded its efficiency and ease of use. The language doesn't make the software, the developers does. You can make sloppy apps in Objective-C, and you can be diligent with Rev. 2. In many cases, our is the only Mac offering available. Many of the apps I make for my clients do not have Mac-native competitors. Instead, our competitors tell their Mac customers to run their Windows apps under Parallels or Bootcamp. Few Windows developers bother to port to Mac -- why double development costs only to gain an extra 10% market potential? If we weren't able to keep our costs down by using a single code base to deliver to all three platforms, we probably wouldn't deliver for OS X at all, since we make four to eight times as much money from our Windows customers. But thanks to cross-platform tools like Rev, it's affordable to deliver for the Mac audience, and even on our worst day our UX better conforms to the Mac HIG that running a Win app under emulation. :) If we were prevented from using Rev for OS X, OS X simply wouldn't have some software categories addressed at all. Today this may not seem relevant on the iPhone OS with its 200,000 apps, but over time I think it'll start to become noticeable, esp. in vertical categories such as those most Rev developers make. If Steve Jobs believes that Apple can deliver an unquestionably superior user experience, one that matters enough to drive sales, why not let cross-platform tools continue to address vertical needs for iPhone OS as they do for OS X? Is he afraid that he'll see on the iPhone what we've all been seeing on the desktop for years, that it really doesn't matter to end-users what language is used to make an app as long as it enhances their workflow? Is he afraid that Apple won't be able to offer sufficiently
RE: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue)
What everyone here seems to forget is that flash finally took vector graphics powered by very tightly packed and efficiently executed byte code to a web that choked up by static bit maps. It was long overdue. Problem is that it never belonged at the plugin level. Now steve is trying to right this architectural wrong, but from the same messed up closed system protectionist motivation that drove macromedia to make the same mistake. Infrastructure is infrastructure. It serves no one to build a private interstate highway system. haven't we learned this yet? I am all for antitrust laws but only when those writing and enforcing them understand them at a deeper level than simple market competition. Obama is a smart guy. He is appointing smart prosecutors and judges and giving them the right mandates. Something of merit will come of this standoff and what motivates it. But I do remember the ridiculous apple antitrust suit against microsoft. Who built the windows mouse metaphor... xerox. The truth has a way of bubbling up. What bothers me is how willing the public is to forgive (even become apologists for) criminal or short sighted minds when those minds get rich being better at being wrong than I am. What color is the money you make? -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 9:44 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue) Wow, I completely disagree. Apps aren't apples. Apps are apples and oranges and anteaters. The basis of your argument is that materials have more to do with desire than the finished product. That would be akin to art historians only comparing art by the paint used. That steve jobs is up to something bigger than his words imply is obvious. There was a time when he had a conscience (in the person of the Woz). There was a time when Jobs espoused absolute openness (even all board meetings and payroll was open to all employees at next). But I do think that all of this has to do with a fed up reaction to the north korea of software houses: adobe. It is just too bad he didn't come right out and say it... -Original Message- From: Michael Kann mikek...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:06 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue) Richard, Did you catch the misleading use of logic in Steve's anti-Flash explanation? He outlined a scenario whereby third-party developers would become dependent on Flash, thereby causing problems when Apple innovated faster than Adobe. But think it through. The only reason that third-party developers would become dependent on Flash would be if they could sell enough of their products to make it worthwhile. That dependency only means that people want to buy products made with Flash (or RunRev). If it were true that the products where somehow inferior then the consumers would figure it out and the developers would soon switch over also. So the quality protection explanation is completely bogus. (Which you already know I'm sure). Mike --- On Tue, 5/4/10, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com wrote: From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Subject: Re: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue) To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 9:56 AM Kay C Lan wrote: To that I say, let it happen, let market forces play out, let capitalism do it's thing. Amen. I can't help but wonder if underlying all of this may be that Steve Jobs doesn't have faith in Apple's ability to deliver an unquestionably superior experience. He writes about how multi-platforms apps -- such as the ones we Rev folks make for the desktop -- lower the quality of the user experience. If that were the case to any degree that mattered, people simply wouldn't buy our apps, and would instead choose a truly native alternative. But in practice I see two factors that support using a middleware engine like Rev: 1. The quality difference is not significant enough to matter to users. My Rev-based app got a 4.5-out-of-5 review at not just any mag, but MacWorld, where the reviewer, editorial director Jason Snell, knows a thing or two about Mac UI conventions. His review never mentioned that the text in my tab controls is one pixel lower than spec. Instead, he lauded its efficiency and ease of use. The language doesn't make the software, the developers does. You can make sloppy apps in Objective-C, and you can be diligent with Rev. 2. In many cases, our is the only Mac offering available. Many of the apps I make for my clients do not have Mac-native competitors. Instead, our competitors tell their Mac customers
RE: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue)
Well that is better than the usual response. We can't wag our fingers simply because someone has figured out how to be better or bigger criminals that we are. Big criminals get big only because the larger society in which they practice their art reflects in public sentiment the criminal behaviour they exploit. We vote every day and all day long. -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 10:22 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apple Anti-Trust (was Apples actual response to the Flash issue) On 04/05/2010 20:09, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: What everyone here seems to forget is that flash finally took vector graphics powered by very tightly packed and efficiently executed byte code to a web that choked up by static bit maps. It was long overdue. Problem is that it never belonged at the plugin level. Now steve is trying to right this architectural wrong, but from the same messed up closed system protectionist motivation that drove macromedia to make the same mistake. Infrastructure is infrastructure. It serves no one to build a private interstate highway system. haven't we learned this yet? I am all for antitrust laws but only when those writing and enforcing them understand them at a deeper level than simple market competition. Obama is a smart guy. He is appointing smart prosecutors and judges and giving them the right mandates. Something of merit will come of this standoff and what motivates it. But I do remember the ridiculous apple antitrust suit against microsoft. Who built the windows mouse metaphor... xerox. The truth has a way of bubbling up. What bothers me is how willing the public is to forgive (even become apologists for) criminal or short sighted minds when those minds get rich being better at being wrong than I am. What color is the money you make? Let's see: 2 lev notes are purple, 5 lev notes are red, 10 lev notes are yellow-brown, 20 lev notes are blue, 50 lev notes are also yellow-brown (but a different size from the 10s) and the 100 lev ones (of which I see very few) are green. More to the point; I don't know how those notes have come to me; how the parents of the children I teach have earned them, and so on: what I do know is that I do my job as best I can and that money pays for the bread and cheese. I don't vet the people who pay me to find out how honest they are; for starters it would be plain offensive, I'd lose all my pupils in double-quick time, and don't quite see the point. Money has no smell; what does smell is how it is obtained; mine smells reasonably rosey. I hope the same can be said for you. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Rev and the iPad
Kay, another true computer scientist. -Original Message- From: Jerry Daniels jerry.dani...@me.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:11 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Rev and the iPad Oops. Getting late. Meant to say: The best way to PREDICT the future is to invent it. - Alan Kay Best, Jerry Daniels Use tRev's buy link during your free trial to get 20% off: http://reveditor.com/tag/shouldiswitch On May 2, 2010, at 11:07 PM, Jerry Daniels jerry.dani...@me.com wrote: The best way to invent the future is to invent it. - Alan Kay Best, Jerry Daniels Use tRev's buy link during your free trial to get 20% off: http://reveditor.com/tag/shouldiswitch On May 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Jeff Massung mass...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Kurt Kaufman kkauf...@snet.net wrote: [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Rev and the iPad
I hope you are kidding. -Original Message- From: Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:12 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Rev and the iPad Jerry- Sunday, May 2, 2010, 9:11:01 PM, you wrote: Oops. Getting late. Meant to say: The best way to PREDICT the future is to invent it. - Alan Kay No problem. I think Arthur C. Clarke invented the future by predicting it... -- -Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: OT?: AI, learning networks and pattern recognition (was: Apples actual response to the Flash issue)
Why don't you ask the guys at adobe if their content is really aware. -Original Message- From: Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:27 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: OT?: AI, learning networks and pattern recognition (was: Apples actual response to the Flash issue) Now we're getting somewhere that actually has some vague relevance to the list. On 2 May 2010, at 22:39, Randall Reetz wrote: I had assumed your questions were rhetorical. If I ask the same questions multiple times you can be sure that they're not rhetorical. When I say that software hasn't changed I mean to say that it hasn't jumped qualitative categories. We are still living in a world where computing exists as pre-written and compiled software that is blindly executed by machines and stacked foundational code that has no idea what it is processing, can only process linearly, all semantics have been stripped, it doesn't learn from experience or react to context unless this too has been pre-codified and frozen in binary or byte code, etc. etc etc. Hardware has been souped up. So our little wrote tricks can be made more elaborate within the substantial confines mentioned. These same in-paradigm restrictions apply to both the software users slog through and the software we use to write software. As a result, these very plastic machines with mercurial potential are reduced to simple players that react to user interrupts. They are sequencing systems, not unlike the lead type setting racks of Guttenburg-era printing presses. Sure we have taught them some interesting seeming tricks if you can represent something as digital media, be it sound, video, multi-dimentional graph space, markup our sequencer doesn't know enough to care. So for you, for something to be 'revolutionary' it has to involve a full paradigm shift? That's a more extreme definition than most people use. Current processors are capable of 6.5 million instructions per second but are used less than a billionth of available cycles by the standard users running standard software. From a pedantic, technical point of view, these days if the processor is being used that little then it will ramp down the clock speed, which has some environmental and practical benefits in itself. ;-) As regards photo editing software, anyone aware of the history of image processing will recognize that most of the stuff seen in photoshop and other programs was proposed and executed on systems long before some guys in france democratized these algorithms for consumer use and had their code acquired by adobe. It used to be called array arithmetic and applied smoothly to images divided up into a grid of pixels. None of these systems see an image for its content except as an array of numbers that can be crunched sequentially like a spread sheet. It was only when object recognition concepts were applied to photos that any kind of compositional grammar could be extracted from an image and compared as parts to other images similarly decomposed. This is a form of semantic processing and has its parallels in other media like text parsers and sound analysis software. You haven't looked up what content-aware fill *is*, have you? It's based on the same basic concepts of pattern-matching/feature detection that facial recognition software is based on but with a different emphasis. To paraphrase, it's not facial recognition that you think is the only revolutionary feature in photography in twenty years, it's pattern- matching/detection/eigenvectors. A lot of time and frustration would have been saved if you'd said that in the first place. Semantics opens the door to the building of systems that understand the content they process. That is the promised second revolution in computation that really hasn't seen any practical light of day as of yet. You're jumping too many steps here - object recognition concepts are in *widespread* use in consumer software and devices, whether it's the aforementioned 'focus-on-a-face' digital cameras, healing brushes in many different pieces of software, feature recognition in panoramic stitching software or even live stitching in some of the new Sony cameras. Semantic processing of content doesn't magically enable a computer to initiate action. Data mining really isn't semantically mindful, simply uses statistical reduction mechanisms to guess at the existence of the location of pattern ( a good first step but missing the grammatical hierarchy necessary to work towards a self optimized and domain independent ability to detect and represent salience in the stacked grammar that makes up any complex system. Combining pattern-matching with adaptive systems, whether they be neural networks or something else is another matter
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I guess if a person is sufficiently ignorant or has their fingers in their ears and screams, any honest answer will slip by un recognized. Would you like it better if I said the future of computing is better touch up tools in photo editors? In the nixon administration your rhetorical technique was called rat f___ing and was used as you are to thwart opponents who would win legitimate and fair debates or elections. Tell me your great vision of computation or at the very least why you are so threatened by me. -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 10:23 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Are you closer to understanding entropy and the evolution of complexity now? -Original Message- From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 7:17 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Randall, Like most people, I'm neither Galileo nor the Church. I sign my real name to my posts, and I asked you a real question hoping for a real answer... a simple, honest question about your vision for computing, to which you have no answer, only more masturbatory rhetoric, and the same name calling and juvenile inferences that only a few posts ago you so decried when it came your way. So, unless you wish to become honest and stop hiding inside your linguistic psychedelics, I give up. I'm not sure at this point that you'd recognize truth or honesty if it hit you upside the head with a two-by-four. Mark On May 2, 2010, at 5:56 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Sad. Truth matters in all affairs. Good people can see through lies and [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: OT?: AI, learning networks and pattern recognition (was: Apples actual response to the Flash issue)
I can see how the word revolution in the context of this list has acquired so anemic and castrated a meaning. I am sorry. Next time, I will use a word that means all the way around, or when a king is replaced by a democracy. time. -Original Message- From: Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:27 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: OT?: AI, learning networks and pattern recognition (was: Apples actual response to the Flash issue) Now we're getting somewhere that actually has some vague relevance to the list. On 2 May 2010, at 22:39, Randall Reetz wrote: I had assumed your questions were rhetorical. If I ask the same questions multiple times you can be sure that they're not rhetorical. When I say that software hasn't changed I mean to say that it hasn't jumped qualitative categories. We are still living in a world where computing exists as pre-written and compiled software that is blindly executed by machines and stacked foundational code that has no idea what it is processing, can only process linearly, all semantics have been stripped, it doesn't learn from experience or react to context unless this too has been pre-codified and frozen in binary or byte code, etc. etc etc. Hardware has been souped up. So our little wrote tricks can be made more elaborate within the substantial confines mentioned. These same in-paradigm restrictions apply to both the software users slog through and the software we use to write software. As a result, these very plastic machines with mercurial potential are reduced to simple players that react to user interrupts. They are sequencing systems, not unlike the lead type setting racks of Guttenburg-era printing presses. Sure we have taught them some interesting seeming tricks if you can represent something as digital media, be it sound, video, multi-dimentional graph space, markup our sequencer doesn't know enough to care. So for you, for something to be 'revolutionary' it has to involve a full paradigm shift? That's a more extreme definition than most people use. Current processors are capable of 6.5 million instructions per second but are used less than a billionth of available cycles by the standard users running standard software. From a pedantic, technical point of view, these days if the processor is being used that little then it will ramp down the clock speed, which has some environmental and practical benefits in itself. ;-) As regards photo editing software, anyone aware of the history of image processing will recognize that most of the stuff seen in photoshop and other programs was proposed and executed on systems long before some guys in france democratized these algorithms for consumer use and had their code acquired by adobe. It used to be called array arithmetic and applied smoothly to images divided up into a grid of pixels. None of these systems see an image for its content except as an array of numbers that can be crunched sequentially like a spread sheet. It was only when object recognition concepts were applied to photos that any kind of compositional grammar could be extracted from an image and compared as parts to other images similarly decomposed. This is a form of semantic processing and has its parallels in other media like text parsers and sound analysis software. You haven't looked up what content-aware fill *is*, have you? It's based on the same basic concepts of pattern-matching/feature detection that facial recognition software is based on but with a different emphasis. To paraphrase, it's not facial recognition that you think is the only revolutionary feature in photography in twenty years, it's pattern- matching/detection/eigenvectors. A lot of time and frustration would have been saved if you'd said that in the first place. Semantics opens the door to the building of systems that understand the content they process. That is the promised second revolution in computation that really hasn't seen any practical light of day as of yet. You're jumping too many steps here - object recognition concepts are in *widespread* use in consumer software and devices, whether it's the aforementioned 'focus-on-a-face' digital cameras, healing brushes in many different pieces of software, feature recognition in panoramic stitching software or even live stitching in some of the new Sony cameras. Semantic processing of content doesn't magically enable a computer to initiate action. Data mining really isn't semantically mindful, simply uses statistical reduction mechanisms to guess at the existence of the location of pattern ( a good first step but missing the grammatical hierarchy necessary to work towards a self optimized and domain independent ability to detect and represent salience in the stacked
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Are you closer to understanding entropy and the evolution of complexity now? -Original Message- From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 7:17 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Randall, Like most people, I'm neither Galileo nor the Church. I sign my real name to my posts, and I asked you a real question hoping for a real answer... a simple, honest question about your vision for computing, to which you have no answer, only more masturbatory rhetoric, and the same name calling and juvenile inferences that only a few posts ago you so decried when it came your way. So, unless you wish to become honest and stop hiding inside your linguistic psychedelics, I give up. I'm not sure at this point that you'd recognize truth or honesty if it hit you upside the head with a two-by-four. Mark On May 2, 2010, at 5:56 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Sad. Truth matters in all affairs. Good people can see through lies and purposeful deceit. History will judge. Are you galileo or the church? -Original Message- From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:45 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Wow. You have a knack for pre-shaping a question to extract the exact result you are seeking, and then way way way over reading the complete lack of participation in your stacked survey to mean that the list agrees with your pre-spun conclusion. Your survey was set up as a trap and everyone who read it knew it, thus your zero response participation. Too bad the soviet union doesn't exist any more, they could use a pollster like you. Even had you asked the dangerous question, Can god make mistakes? I think you would have had some data submitted. The frustration most of us are feeling in our guts has only been inflamed by this latest apple announcement. The frustration is the obvious and steady slipping away from general purpose computing as it is replaced by a media consumption and gaming platform in the form of a slick appliance. For all of its touchy input fluidity, we know it isn't designed for creativity of engineering. Nobody is using an ipad or iphone to develop ipad or iphone apps or operating systems. I worry, as I am sure others do, that apple's market supported emphasis on consumption centered devices means a general drifting away from the go it your own freedom and power a good general purpose computer allows. No one could have designed the ipad on an ipad. Would never have happened. The trend seems to point to a future for apple that looks more like General Electric. A place to buy pre-built stuff more than a place to buy tools with which to invent the future. Am I missing something, will tools be written for multi-touch environments such that we all willingly and happily walk away from our keyboards and pixel perfect pointing devices? Or is the growing dread a worthy indicator that something big is shifting and that it will be harder and harder to find open ended creativity machinery? I think of the user-programmer revolution that smalltalk and hypercard made possible and how much more powerful the macintosh felt as a result. And despite the gold rush motivations we might feel when we read of a kid in iowa who made a million dollars in a month selling a little app, we wonder if apple is making so much money on this consumption machine model that they will completely abandon those of us who think computing is about creativity and open ended creativity at that. I want to see teens on the train building stuff not slaying fake dragons or scheming an encounter with a facebook friend's facebook friend. I want that the open-ended creative option available to every teen, not just the hyper smart hyper nerdy. Is it slipping away? As for jobs. He is great at finding the greed in consumers. But unchecked, that greed seeking is only made more insidious by the amazingly designed products they release to us. Is the ipad so slick to use that we forget our need to create? Are those of us on the development end so motivated by many that we forget our obligation to the future of society? Microsoft released a video demo of a hinged two screened touch slate. For all of its clumsy interface (they are trying) it excites me none the less simply because I can imagine actually getting something done on the thing, building stuff. Not FOR it, but ON it... -Original Message- From: Kay C Lan lan.kc.macm...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 1:34 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Ah, been gone for a couple of hours and come back to exactly what I expected. Not a single List member nominated another List member as being more capable of running Apple than Steve Jobs. And not for want of campaigning. Some very spirited and some rather long posts clearly trying to persuade the masses to vote their way, but in the end not a single mind was changed, not a single prejudice altered - although I much enjoyed the Electrical Engineers manifesto ;-) So what it all boils down to is, some of us think Steve is wrong, and some of us think that Steve is right, but regardless of whether he's right or wrong, ALL of us know, deep down inside, no matter how much it pains us, that Steve + Apple - Flash will make a whole heap more money than [your name here] + Apple + Flash. And everyone on the List agrees ;-) And the sediment left in the bottom is actually the pile of all our own prejudices, failings, misgivings, inadequacies, lack of vision and lack of confidence. I, and I know others on this List, don't see the point of an iPad. If I were running Apple it would be an unmitigated failure because I have no confidence in the product, no vision on what it could do, no talent on how to market it, and no drive to see it through. It wouldn't matter if I listened to everyone on this List and added all the bells and whistles it's critics are complaining about. It would be a failure. [The entire original message is not included] ___
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Computers that process meaning won't work all day to make the world a better place any more or less than we (or anything else) do. But systems that know about the things they process have a substantial leg up on systems that don't. This isn't a complex concept. The execution of the design of such a system or its starting point is on the other hand very complex. If you are demanding that I show you how to build a moon rocket out of farm equipment before you will talk about going into space, then sorry buddy, you are simply and obviously only interested in avoiding the topic and or slandering my person. -Original Message- From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:11 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Maybe, but I suspect Randall has some ideas that I'd really like to hear about. For the life of me, I have a hard time deciphering what they are. But I'd like to hear about them, in simplest terms, without ambiguity. Mark On May 2, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Michael Kann wrote: As I read what Randall proposes, you won't sit down at a computer. The computer will have enough knowledge of the world to work full-time making the world a better place. Every so often it will sit down with a human to explain what it has discovered and what the human can do to help. --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com wrote: From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 5:58 PM Randall, What do you want to see software do? Please be [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I always thought it was smart that rev tied into flash. Allowed a path onto the web. Xtalk and flash share some deep object and widget similarities. But I am a bit confused as to how rev and flash are integrated. Anyone point me to a doc or web page or tube video that explains rev's flash integration? -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 10:52 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On May 3, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0Jsa7su-jIfeature=youtube_gdata Here's the good quality version for US viewers: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-28-2010/appholes ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Really, there is no use of flash in the rev source or output? At all? Where did I get that idea? How are rev stacks exported as executables on the iphone ipad platform? If they are converted at some point to C source then it would be entirely possible to set up a publication service that allows rev users to submit stacks formatted for the iphad (conformed byte code) and shoot them through the apple blessed IDE / compiler. No? Am I smoking something? Seems do-able. Randall -Original Message- From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 9:50 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On May 4, 2010, at 12:32 AM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: I always thought it was smart that rev tied into flash. Allowed a path onto the web. Xtalk and flash share some deep object and widget similarities. But I am a bit confused as to how rev and flash are integrated. Anyone point me to a doc or web page or tube video that explains rev's flash integration? Can you point to the message here that talked about Flash and Rev being integrated? The only connection between the two that I know of is that they are both victims of Apple changing the iPhone SDK agreement. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Yes, but greed has many faces. What people are greedy for is different than what they end up buying. This is do to the fact that the market never serves up the perfect product. People can only express their greed for products that exist. The one that most closely satisfies the deep inner needs of humans is the one that wins in the marketplace. People will pay 30k every 6 years for freedom over geographic distance (a car). 400k for freedom over atmospheric discomfort and public exposure (a house). What is the base fear or desire the iphad satisfies? Surely apple won't always own the only product that will meet that need. -Original Message- From: Kay C Lan lan.kc.macm...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 10:00 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: As for jobs. He is great at finding the greed in consumers. Ah thank you, thats what I was trying to say. Compared to anyone on this List, Jobs is much greater at finding the greed in consumers. Regardless of the mistakes he makes he makes along the way, the consumer will continue to vote with their wallet. You know it, I know it, and everyone on the List knows it. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I don't buy it. I think that apple is frustrated that it can't build a vector based video description language without infringing on adobe's patents. I think that apple has tried unsuccessfully to engage adobe in a joint project or to buy the rights. I think microsoft has as well. This is a freezout. A hunger strike. Apple would never piss off its customers without an absolute need pressing them into this dangerous territory. Apple needs to break adobe's stubbornness. This is a last resort move which will give them and ms legal ammo in an antitrust battle should they have build their own patient busting protocol. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I am talking revolutionary innovations, not feature creep. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I meant generalize and subsume (word hinting is a killer app). -Original Message- From: René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:34 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Even if I do not always understand the words of Randall, on the merits, I quite agree with what he says. Le 2 mai 2010 à 02:11, Randall Lee Reetz a écrit : Also, adobe isn't doing any of its code donkeys any favors when it under exploits the market through old world protectionist business practices and an avoidance of future looking technology. As with retirement pools, an entity will never be able to sustain old obligations on the profits of old ideas. New ideas and new levels of profitability are the only way to pay the obligations owed to the inventors for efforts towards past innovations. If adobe really wants to profit from its own past it will have to figure out how to generalive and subsume the salient aspects of its IP to a layer new products and markets can build on top of. Holding on to software application markets born 20 years ago is a strategy born to fail. I think IBM Is a good lesson on how a company needs to think about maturing. Don't push your past solutions, push the human resources and resource management and infrastructure knowhow that your old product successes make evident. Sell the ability to make solutions, not solutions themselves. Give away the source as a way to market the minds. More money will flow in. Stock holders (the original innovators) will benefit more than thy would through draconian measures to extend the natural life of a product category. ___ [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Richard, I am not anti open-source. But I have noticed trends in the category. What I am frustrated with is the continual revisionist approach to software development... that photshop seemed great 20 years ago really doesn't mean we should still be subjected to it's awkwardness today. Nobody seems to be stepping back far enough to take in the full scope of the field of computation and ask what is computation and where is it going in the long run? without asking such questions we are bound to spend another 60 years building slightly better word processors instead of asking what is it we are attempting to accomplish when we write? So many of the issues we find so important are simply historical contingencies. Where is the progress? Just because an open source program is free doesn't mean it is better or more evolved than the $300 app it apes. Also, it is simply ridiculous to think that the average person is prepared or willing to put up with the technical bush wacking required of open source users. If a solution doesn't scale, it really isn't a solution. Presenting your personal go-it-alone mountain-man solutions as universal advise is crazy or macho. Lets get real. -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:53 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 11:26, Ian Wood wrote: On 1 May 2010, at 23:44, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: I have yet to hear an open source advocate talk to the evolution of technology. Depends on your definitions. One of the big new features for CS5 (content-aware fill) was already available as a plug=in for the GIMP. Ian Randall Lee Reetz has already declared his antipathy towards Open Source software so many times that this was sure to be his response to my posting. In an OPEN world (hey, look, Richmond is also using that over-used-and-abused word) there should be room for 100% Open Source stuff and 100% proprietary stuff and all possible stuff in between. I belong to a broad church that admits all levels and types of beliefs (well, at least as far as software is concerned). Open Source offerings have now reached a certain level of maturity that means they can compete with [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Yes, and there is a tendency in silicon valley for software engineers to never grow out of their inability to acknowledge exactly how statistically rare and strange are their views. When everyone you run into is exactly the same as yourself, there are no social control rods to keep your weird ideas from spinning out of reasonable scope. So few of the engineers I know can ask the big questions about the evolution of complexity handling machinery. And the scientists have long sence left computer science. That computation defines (despite any long range plan) more and more of the future means we are in trouble as a species. Big trouble. -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:57 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 11:31, René Micout wrote: Le 2 mai 2010 à 00:44, Randall Lee Reetz a écrit : It is largely an ayn rand anarchist after school club for all white mall arcade raised nerds lacking in any real vision. Very difficult for a french to understand that ! If English speaker dont speak English then Je m'exprimerai en français sur ce forum ! ;-)___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Ayn Rand was a Hungarian who became an American; she advocated an extremely crude form of anarcho-capitalism. Her books are 2-dimensional exercises in projecting her ideas that are extremely popular with the 20-30 set who have been through their left-wing phase and are now experiencing their backlash reaction. Once people realise how 2-dimensional her ideas are and how they fail to account (just as Marxism does) for the nature of humanity they move on; normally giving up adopting extreme political postures. ___ use-revolution mailing list [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
The ayn rand-ers believe that consumers know enough to guide the direction of technology by voting at the apple app store or on amazon. But consumers can only choose from the current selection. People have a hard time imagining that which they can't hold in their hands right now. It is up to visionaries to innovate. Despite public opinion. I've used my computer for 25 years and it still has no idea who I am. If I haven't hit a key or touched the mouse button, it just sits there completely stupid-like. The power of a supercomputer in the role of typewriter. Ridiculous. Where are the open source projects that are attempting to actually evolve computing beyond typing and spreadsheets and watching tv? If the xtalk community was commuted to making sure that it was as amazing each year as hypercard was 25 years ago, I wouldn't feel so defeated or act so crotchity. Programming IS what it used to be... What a drag. -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:39 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Yes, and there is a tendency in silicon valley for software engineers to never grow out of their inability to acknowledge exactly how statistically rare and strange are their views. When everyone you run into is exactly the same as yourself, there are no social control rods to keep your weird ideas from spinning out of reasonable scope. So few of the engineers I know can ask the big questions about the evolution of complexity handling machinery. And the scientists have long sence left computer science. That computation defines (despite any long range plan) more and more of the future means we are in trouble as a species. Big trouble. -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 1:57 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 11:31, René Micout wrote: Le 2 mai 2010 à 00:44, Randall Lee Reetz a écrit : It is largely an ayn rand anarchist after school club for all white mall arcade raised nerds lacking in any real vision. Very difficult for a french to understand that ! If English speaker dont speak English then Je m'exprimerai en français sur ce forum ! ;-)___ use-revolution mailing list [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Revolutionary? A supercomputer that has been trained to know where to paste a postal code? Doing alan turing proud! -Original Message- From: Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:57 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 2 May 2010, at 11:07, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: I am talking revolutionary innovations, not feature creep. It's not clear who you're responding to here, but if it was my remark about content-aware fill then you have no idea how revolutionary some examples of feature creep can be in their field. Ian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Are you kidding? These are revisionist applications exactly as I have noted. The only revolution in photo programs in the last 20 years is face recognition. But what has been done with it? Almost nothing. Is it available to rev programmers? Can it be generalized to learn any object? Does it get better as we all work with it? I can't wait for typewriter 10.8! -Original Message- From: Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:00 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 2 May 2010, at 11:29, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: What I am frustrated with is the continual revisionist approach to software development... that photshop seemed great 20 years ago really doesn't mean we should still be subjected to it's awkwardness today. Which is why a lot of photographers now use LightRoom, Aperture or similar... Ian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Really, the word revisionist is no longer to be used? There are quite a few words in the marxist cannon, in manifestos large and small by villains throughout history, are all of these words off limits? Should we wait until you inform us so that we might fall into line according to your word retirement program? Richard, I suggest that you refrain from grade school level arguments and argue points on the merits of their content. Your attempts at defamation are obvious and childish. You have been bullying this list for years. I have received numerous personal off-list emails by people who simply refuse to post after being subject on too many times to your personal attacks. Views on issues can be stated even in angry tones without attacking the character individuals who write in debate. Maybe you would prefer to make fun of my face or clothing? Should I post a picture? Maybe you would like to say something rude about my parents or where I live? Would that help shore up your arguments? Please. -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 5:06 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 14:16, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: snip These are revisionist applications exactly as I have noted. The funny thing is that when I hear/see the word 'revisionist' it makes me think of Marxist critiques of Trotskyism and Holocaust deniers; neither of these meanings seem to line up with software applications. Another semantic shift perhaps; possibly only in Mr Reetz's private language ? Beam me up. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Adobe didn't conceive postscript, photshop, illustrator, flash, etc. Mathematica isn't derivative. Wolfram (for all I rail on his philosophy) is one of the last remaining computer scientists. I think there is something about the act of writing software the way we've been doing it that either strips the science out of us or keeps the scientists away. Wolfram is an interesting guy. His mathematica is like most of this first wave software simply a digital analog of a tool we did manually before. Yet at the same time, he actively promotes the idea of properties and tools unique to computation (his new kind of science). Anyway, this discussion was about steve jobs when I think it should be about adobe's all to familiar entrenchment approach to innovation. This, once the disappointment and anger wears off is what has driven steve jobs into such unpopular and dangerous a stance. Like all tertiary species, runrev can only eat the debris that falls to the ocean floor. When xtalk was abandoned by apple, that was the day the music really died. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:36 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue LOL, I don't spend much time on this list anymore. The only reason I'm even reading this thread is I, too, out of the blue, received off-list messages regarding your incite full posts. And, I feel humbled in the presence of the only visionary thinker in the world with regard to software. I'm with you, Randall. I think we should pile up and burn all these pretender and derivative programs, like Photosop, Mathematica and Xcode-- hell, I could probably write any of these simplistic mind-numbing tools in a weekend with Rev (but only if I wish to waste valuable time which I could be pontificating the ininess, or lack thereof, of my navel). I suspect that like myself, you too believe Rev is the gateway to this newer, richer class of software where the computer ceases to be a typewriter and finally knows who you are and that is why you continue to post here in the use-revolution list and not on some politicorum. (great word-- just made it up, feel free to use it.) On Sunday, May 2, 2010, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: I have received numerous personal off-list emails by people who simply refuse to post after being subject on too many times to your personal attacks___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
If you follow the w3c you will notice a direction towards making a vector based description language the core of web graphics. That will leave adobe in the same position it has put all of its customers for years, the only option is to sell an IDE or editor that supports the web standard. Browsers will be able to naively unpack and display motion vector based video as per the world wide standard. Apple and microsoft are only too happy to push towards this agenda if only knock the village bully down. And it is about time. Anyone remember NAPALPS (i that how it was spelled?) the vector based content protocol the french and canadian web used? Its not like macromedia invented flash or its concept. -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 10:07 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Adobe didn't conceive postscript, photshop, illustrator, flash, etc. Mathematica isn't derivative. Wolfram (for all I rail on his philosophy) is one of the last remaining computer scientists. I think there is something about the act of writing software the way we've been doing it that either strips the science out of us or keeps the scientists away. Wolfram is an interesting guy. His mathematica is like most of this first wave software simply a digital analog of a tool we did manually before. Yet at the same time, he actively promotes the idea of properties and tools unique to computation (his new kind of science). Anyway, this discussion was about steve jobs when I think it should be about adobe's all to familiar entrenchment approach to innovation. This, once the disappointment and anger wears off is what has driven steve jobs into such unpopular and dangerous a stance. Like all tertiary species, runrev can only eat the debris that falls to the ocean floor. When xtalk was abandoned by apple, that was the day the music really died. -Original Message- From: Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:36 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue LOL, I don't spend much time on this list anymore. [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Ok, a real discussion. People choose the best choice available to them. The choices we in computerdom have offered are not exactly overwhelming in their scope. If my choice is between a horrible spreadsheet, a really snappy one, and a game that makes me feel like I full a fliing dinosaur world, guess what the royal I will choose. Can you blame me? As computers have become a million times faster software has become about three times better. That isn't a very proud ratio. The revolution to come is a revolution of self evolving software that never sleeps, is using the most hardware it can round up, and wants to learn so that it ca help us. That is the kind of jump in choice the public deserves. Until then, I cheer the public even if I am not always one of them. -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 10:35 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 20:07, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Adobe didn't conceive postscript, photshop, illustrator, flash, etc. Mathematica isn't derivative. Wolfram (for all I rail on his philosophy) is one of the last remaining computer scientists. I think there is something about the act of writing software the way we've been doing it that either strips the science out of us or keeps the scientists away. Wolfram is an interesting guy. His mathematica is like most of this first wave software simply a digital analog of a tool we did manually before. Yet at the same time, he actively promotes the idea of properties and tools unique to computation (his new kind of science). Anyway, this discussion was about steve jobs when I think it should be about adobe's all to familiar entrenchment approach to innovation. This, once the disappointment and anger wears off is what has driven steve jobs into such unpopular and dangerous a stance. Like all tertiary species, runrev can only eat the debris that falls to the ocean floor. When xtalk was abandoned by apple, that was the day the music really died. Fair point, Randall: adobe's all to familiar entrenchment approach to innovation ; but that is a problem that tends to happen with ALL successful organisations (including Apple); they become complacent and slack off. Unfortunately, like it or not, the vast majority of folk use their computers as nothing more than typewriters and video-phones, home entertainment centres and mind-numbing devices; and, despite your ideals, and mine (however much they may differ; and I suspect not as much as you might think); it is again the old problem about who pays for the bread and cheese___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Yes, and what of vampires and the day we run out of batteries! The end is coming! -Original Message- From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 10:41 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Are you kidding? These are revisionist applications exactly as I have noted. The only revolution in photo programs in the last 20 years is face recognition. But what has been done with it? Almost nothing. Is it available to rev programmers? Can it be generalized to learn any object? Does it get better as we all work with it? I can't wait for typewriter 10.8! There have been innumerable fiction stories written about computers that acquire AI. Be careful what you wish for. I even get irritated at spell checkers that try to complete my thoughts for me. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Ok, a real discussion. People choose the best choice available to them. The choices we in computerdom have offered are not exactly overwhelming in their scope. If my choice is between a horrible spreadsheet, a really snappy one, and a game that makes me feel like I rule a flying dinosaur world with angelena jolee, guess what the royal I will always choose. Can you blame me? As computers have become a million times faster software has become about three times better. That isn't a very proud ratio. The revolution to come is a revolution of self evolving software that never sleeps, is using the most hardware it can round up, and wants to learn so that it can help us. That is the kind of jump in choice the public deserves. Until then, I cheer the public even if I am not always one of them. -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 10:35 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 20:07, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Adobe didn't conceive postscript, photshop, illustrator, flash, etc. Mathematica isn't derivative. Wolfram (for all I rail on his philosophy) is one of the last remaining computer scientists. I think there is something about the act of writing software the way we've been doing it that either strips the science out of us or keeps the scientists away. Wolfram is an interesting guy. His mathematica is like most of this first wave software simply a digital analog of a tool we did manually before. Yet at the same t [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Personal attacks again? Really, you need to substitute that 7 year old crap for a genuine statement of content? And you don't think people see it for what it is? Is it because the teacher left the room? Is that the level of morality you have achieved? So, how about some content? A substantive rebuttal? Putting your ideas out there for all to see? -Original Message- From: David C. davidoco...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 11:15 AM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue The only reason I'm even reading this thread is I, too, out of the blue, received off-list messages regarding your incite full posts. And, I feel humbled in the presence of the only visionary thinker in the world with regard to software. I typically avoid participation in threads like this, but I just have to this time around... Outside of the knee deep in B.S. factor, I find it a bit unusual for such to be spewed forth from a visionary who's web site currently has the following content: rhetoric - under construction ideas - under construction future - under construction ...a tad bit of food for thought. Regards, David C. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
How about my blog: http://www.complexitymetric.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 12:17 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 22:13, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Personal attacks again? Really, you need to substitute that 7 year old crap for a genuine statement of content? And you don't think people see it for what it is? Is it because the teacher left the room? Is that the level of morality you have achieved? So, how about some content? A substantive rebuttal? Putting your ideas out there for all to see? -Original Message- From: David C.davidoco...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 11:15 AM To: How to use Revolutionuse-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue The only reason I'm even reading this thread is I, too, out of the blue, received off-list messages regarding your incite full posts. And, I feel humbled in the presence of the only visionary thinker in the world with regard to software. I typically avoid participation in threads like this, but I just have to this time around... Outside of the knee deep in B.S. factor, I find it a bit unusual for such to be spewed forth from a visionary who's web site currently has the following content: rhetoric - under construction ideas - under construction future - under construction ...a tad bit of food for thought. Regards, David C. Thanks, David, for pointing the way to Randall's website; I enjoyed my visit there, and I am sure many other people would. I found it helped to contextualise a lot what Randall writes about. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Driving right now so will answer your questions as soon as I am out of my car. -Original Message- From: Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 12:32 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 2 May 2010, at 20:13, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: So, how about some content? A substantive rebuttal? Putting your ideas out there for all to see? How about replying to direct questions asked of you, for instance why facial recognition is revolutionary but content-aware fill isn't? Or why the examples of things facial recognition is being used for *now* in consumer products is 'Almost nothing'. It would also be useful if you could explain what you mean by revisionist applications. I *assume* you are talking about apps that are evolutionary rather than revolutionary in how they change what people do with them, but it's not clear and 'revisionist' has some very specific connotations. Ian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Right, I believe you... -Original Message- From: David C. davidoco...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 12:39 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Personal attacks again? Well, it really wasn't intended as a personal attack exactly... I don't even know ya and really don't care about the subject matter. It was more of a poorly judged stab at some off the wall humor. Regards, David C. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
And what is the disagreement? Is it making fun of an abandoned web site? -Original Message- From: Richmond Mathewson richmondmathew...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 12:48 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 02/05/2010 22:39, David C. wrote: Personal attacks again? Well, it really wasn't intended as a personal attack exactly... I don't even know ya and really don't care about the subject matter. It was more of a poorly judged stab at some off the wall humor. I have a funny feeling that some people, when they feel that they are in a logical corner, or their particular viewpoint is under-appreciated, instead of either getting on with something else, finding a better argument to justify their viewpoint, admitting they were wrong, or whatever, react by calling a disagreement a personal attack. having a fairly robust ego myself I don't do this; I go away and make a salad, wash the dishes, drink a cup of coffee, go for a walk; and calm down and, normally find out that just about 50% of what I percieved to be problematic is my fault. Or I just laugh the whole thing off by making some daft joke on the Use-List . . . anybody for a purple dinosaur . . . or 2 ??? If one indulges in whacky humour then should realise that: 1. Not everyone will share your deep sense of fun. 2. You are going to get 'poo' thrown back at you sooner or later. [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Yes, thanks, there are a few of us stretching back to babbage (even voltair), and more recently and more succinctly by schrodinger in his seminal what is life essay. -Original Message- From: Michael Kann mikek...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:08 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Randall, Take it up with this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Lenat He's spent thirty-five years thinking about the same issues. --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote: From: Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 4:39 PM OK, Ian, I promised I would respond and here goes. Sorry I didn't before, I had assumed your questions were rhetorical. When I say that software hasn't changed I mean to say that it hasn't jumped qualitative categories. We are still living in a world where computing exists as pre-written and compiled software that is blindly executed by machines and stacked foundational code that has no idea what it is processing, can only process linearly, all semantics have been stripped, it doesn't learn from experience or react to context unless this too has been pre-codified and frozen in binary or byte code, etc. etc etc. Hardware has been souped up. So our little wrote tricks can be made more elaborate within the substantial confines mentioned. These same in-paradigm restrictions apply to both the software users slog through and the software we use to write software. As a result, these very plastic machines with mercurial potential are reduced to simple players that react to user interrupts. They are sequencing systems, not unlike the lead type setting racks of Guttenburg-era printing presses. Sure we have taught them some interesting seeming tricks – if you can represent something as digital media, be it sound, video, multi-dimentional graph space, markup – our sequencer doesn't know enough to care. Current [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Ok, but know that apple and adobe and microsoft are dealing with this issue in the context of these big-future projections. Google too. The old paradigm is well past its its viable life span and there is nothing but russian rockets left to heft us into place while we wait for the new. -Original Message- From: Peter Haworth p...@mollysrevenge.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:28 PM To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue I'm not sure what the etiquette of this board is or if there's a moderator, but surely this thing has wandered far off anything remotely to do with Revolution and taken up way too much space. Can we get back to Revolution related topics? Pete Haworth ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Really, all YOU can do is nitpick? No content? What pisses you off is that I care enough to think hard and long on these issues in context? I didn't start this thread. It went on and on and on as simplistic and childish woe is me, steve is the devil manner until I felt I had to step in and put the tantrum under the lens of reality bigger than our shared disappointment and frustration. Everyone loves the simplicity and lynch-mob hysteria of a tea party cheering session. Except I guess me. If by ego you mean having the balls to think original thoughts and voice them at the risk of this constant chorus of you make us look bad when you actually care, well you are right and it is worth everything you can throw at me to know what an authentic life feels like. I only wish you had one. Then we could engage in a conversation of more meaning and substance. -Original Message- From: roger.e.el...@sealedair.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:35 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Randall Reetz' robust ego wrote: Is this the topic? Really? All you can come up with? Nasty childish nitpicking? Yes emailing is dangerous while driving. I wrote that note at a gas station while filling my tank. Now at cafe and ready to respond to substantive questions and comments. On May 2, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote: On 02/05/2010 22:40, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Driving right now so will answer your questions as soon as I am out of my car. That sounds fairly dangerous: answering e-mails while driving. if Driving right now is not I wrote that note at a gas station then put The author, or his robust ego cares very little about anything beyond fueling that ego with negative attention and wasted bandwidth on tangents that are far removed from the topic closeTopic else put This is childish nitpicking, NOT! -- he uses the word 'childish' alot too, although if someone were to -- be seriously injured by responding to email while driving, -- I doubt whether that ego would be shaken in the least end if [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
You can answer that question your self easly enough. Close your eyes, imagine evolution doing what evolution does. Where will complexity handling systems be in 10, 20, 100 years? The whole notion of sitting down at a computer is hopelessly old-school. The better question really is what is it that systems want? Any systems. Humans are a system. Is it the shovel we are after, or is it the ditch, is it water we want or the fruit it grows, is it the fruit or the energy we receive, is it the energy or is it the use we put that energy towards, what are these uses, what drives us towards them, where is it all headed? Is any of this something that is best embodied in a spread sheet or a web page or a slide show? aren't these notions simply the result of the limitations our imaginations place upon the future as a result of historical experience? The real question becomes, what do you want out of life? What does life want? What is life? What will life be? -Original Message- From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:58 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Randall, What do you want to see software do? Please be succinct. Give a handful of examples of what you envision happening when you sit down at a computer. Real terms. No philosophy. I'm not trying to disrespect you here, I just don't fully comprehend what your vision is for software, and how that will make the computing world (and world) a better place. Thanks, Mark On May 2, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Ok, but know that apple and adobe and microsoft are dealing with this issue in the context of these big-future projections. Google too. The old paradigm is well past its its viable life span and there is nothing but russian rockets left to heft us into place while we wait for the new. -Original Message- From: Peter Haworth p...@mollysrevenge.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:28 PM To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I doubt this. I doubt that it will be an it so much as it will be the infrastructure through which the world will come alive reflecting the intention of the intermingled motivations and resources of the entities at play in the global info sphere. What we can say for certain is that systems complexity has reached the limits of what is comfortable for human minds to manage manually even with the he -Original Message- From: Michael Kann mikek...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:07 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue As I read what Randall proposes, you won't sit down at a computer. The computer will have enough knowledge of the world to work full-time making the world a better place. Every so often it will sit down with a human to explain what it has discovered and what the human can do to help. --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com wrote: From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 5:58 PM Randall, What do you want to see software do? Please be succinct. Give a handful of examples of what you envision happening when you sit down at a computer. Real terms. No philosophy. I'm not trying to disrespect you here, I just don't fully comprehend what your vision is for software, and how that will make the computing world (and world) a better place. Thanks, Mark On May 2, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Ok, but know that apple and adobe and microsoft are dealing with this issue in the context of these big-future projections. Google too. The old paradigm is well past its its viable life span and there is nothing but russian rockets left to heft us into place while we wait for the new. -Original Message- From: Peter Haworth p...@mollysrevenge.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:28 PM To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue I'm not sure what the etiquette of this board is or if there's a moderator, but surely this thing has wandered far off anything remotely to do with Revolution and taken up way too much space. Can we get back to Revolution related topics? [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Sad. Truth matters in all affairs. Good people can see through lies and purposeful deceit. History will judge. Are you galileo or the church? -Original Message- From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:45 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue I can answer the question of your vision myself? I asked you to share your vision, in simplest terms, without ambiguity, through a few examples. Instead you answer with more obfuscation. I can only think, after a certain point, that you don't really have a vision what you're after. And don't say I didn't ask or that I'm in need of a teacher to tell me what to think or how to behave. SImple questions deserve simple answers. Mark On May 2, 2010, at 4:20 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: You can answer that question your self easly enough. Close your eyes, imagine evolution doing what evolution does. Where will complexity handling systems be in 10, 20, 100 years? The whole notion of sitting down at a computer is hopelessly old-school. The better question really is what is it that systems want? Any systems. Humans are a system. Is it the shovel we are after, or is it the ditch, is it water we want or the fruit it grows, is it the fruit or the energy we receive, is it the energy or is it the use we put that energy towards, what are these uses, what drives us towards them, where is it all headed? Is any of this something that is best embodied in a spread sheet or a web page or a slide show? aren't these notions simply the result of the limitations our imaginations place upon the future as a result of historical experience? The real question becomes, what do you want out of life? [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
... even with the aid of spreadsheets, databases, java and C. Q? Which had more effect on human affairs, the words of any one person, or the printing press that democratized access an publication? The revolution at hand is as grand as the one that resulted in biology. -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:30 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue I doubt this. I doubt that it will be an it so much as it will be the infrastructure through which the world will come alive reflecting the intention of the intermingled motivations and resources of the entities at play in the global info sphere. What we can say for certain is that systems complexity has reached the limits of what is comfortable for human minds to manage manually even with the he -Original Message- From: Michael Kann mikek...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:07 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue As I read what Randall proposes, you won't sit down at a computer. The computer will have enough knowledge of the world to work full-time making the world a better place. Every so often it will sit down with a human to explain what it has discovered and what the human can do to help. --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com wrote: From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 5:58 PM Randall, [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
If you think what I have said is philosophy you are going to be wildly shocked by the next twenty years. -Original Message- From: Randall Lee Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:20 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue You can answer that question your self easly enough. Close your eyes, imagine evolution doing what evolution does. Where will complexity handling systems be in 10, 20, 100 years? The whole notion of sitting down at a computer is hopelessly old-school. The better question really is what is it that systems want? Any systems. Humans are a system. Is it the shovel we are after, or is it the ditch, is it water we want or the fruit it grows, is it the fruit or the energy we receive, is it the energy or is it the use we put that energy towards, what are these uses, what drives us towards them, where is it all headed? Is any of this something that is best embodied in a spread sheet or a web page or a slide show? aren't these notions simply the result of the limitations our imaginations place upon the future as a result of historical experience? The real question becomes, what do you want out of life? What does life want? What is life? What will life be? -Original Message- From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:58 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Randall, What do you want to see software do? Please be succinct. Give a handful of examples of what you envision happening when you sit down at a computer. Real terms. No philosophy. I'm not trying to disrespect you here, I just don't fully comprehend what your vision is for software, and how that will [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Not only do I believe this is happening, I am building (or attempting to build) a seed sufficient to evolve towards its eventuality. -Original Message- From: Michael Kann mikek...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 4:13 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue Mark, I wasn't trying to be funny. I really think that scenario is what Randall envisions. Mike --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com wrote: From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 6:11 PM Maybe, but I suspect Randall has some ideas that I'd really like to hear about. For the life of me, I have a hard time deciphering what they are. But I'd like to hear about them, in simplest terms, without ambiguity. Mark On May 2, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Michael Kann wrote: As I read what Randall proposes, you won't sit down at a computer. The computer will have enough knowledge of the world to work full-time making the world a better place. Every so often it will sit down with a human to explain what it has discovered and what the human can do to help. --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com wrote: From: Mark Swindell mdswind...@cruzio.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 5:58 PM Randall, What do you want to see software do? Please be succinct. Give a handful of examples of what you envision happening when you sit down at a computer. Real terms. No philosophy. I'm not trying to disrespect you here, I just don't fully comprehend what your vision is for software, and how that will make the computing world (and world) a better place. Thanks, Mark On May 2, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Ok, but [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I am not bitter. I am so hopping to engage at the requisite level to pass this baton into the future. The numbers aren't good. We are faced with the largest challenge in the history of multicellular biology. All anyone seems to want to talk about is the economy or ipad apps. Its suicidal. There must be people out there that care and care from a grounded and practical perspective? Even if the global heat budget wasn't skyrocketing, we would still be served by larger discussions than the is and if not of steve jobs... No? You can't simultaneously pitch about urban finality and poopoo rational attempts to discuss ways to crawl out of it? Why does my passion and sense of responsibility to honor the past that put us here, anger anyone? I refuse to believe the vitrol pushed towards me is simply a reaction to my honest frustration. Should we just keep dancing on titanic's deck? Is stupidity the new brilliant? -Original Message- From: roger.e.el...@sealedair.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:22 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 05/02/2010 at 08:49 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: Every few months, Randall interjects into a thread, which immediately swerves off-topic, escalates, and pisses off a bunch of people. Every time it happens, a few people swear they will never talk to him again. Mostly they don't. Unfortunately, each time it happens, new people get sucked in and the whole thing repeats itself. The best way to end this is to stop replying. So much of Randall's commentary is very very interesting. He is obviously a scholar and a visionary. I only ask, why is he so bitter? There is nothing we can do to bring forth his era of computing bliss. I simply like using Revolution. Keyword using. Randall wants improvements in leaps so grand that only aliens or secret government technologies may conceive of. Someone recently told me that the our technology today had exceeded that of science-fiction's very own Star Trek. I will agree that the cell phone and iPad look like devices that were conceived of on sci-fi television, yet we still burn fossil-fuels to go to the supermarket. ~Roger Eller ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
I am not bitter. I am so hopping to engage at the requisite level to pass this baton into the future. The numbers aren't good. We are faced with the largest challenge in the history of multicellular biology. All anyone seems to want to talk about is the economy or ipad apps. Its suicidal. There must be people out there that care and care from a grounded and practical perspective? Even if the global heat budget wasn't skyrocketing, we would still be served by larger discussions than the ifs and if nots of steve jobs... No? You can't simultaneously bitch about urban banality and poopoo rational attempts to discuss ways to crawl out of it? Why does my passion and sense of responsibility to honor the awsome sacrifices of the past that put us here, anger anyone? I refuse to believe the vitrol pushed towards me is simply a reaction to my honest frustration. Should we just keep dancing on titanic's deck? Is stupidity the new brilliant? -Original Message- From: roger.e.el...@sealedair.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:22 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue On 05/02/2010 at 08:49 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: Every few months, Randall interjects into a thread, which immediately swerves off-topic, escalates, and pisses off a bunch of people. Every time it happens, a few people swear they will never talk to him again. Mostly they don't. Unfortunately, each time it happens, new people get sucked in and the whole thing repeats itself. [The entire original message is not included] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
don't you guys get it? Adobe is the biggest creep in techdom. Do you remember how they screwed apple over post script? They are the patent hogs who have stymied computational evolution for 30 years. The only company worse then them was micromedia and adobe acquired flash by buying them outright. Apple and microsoft aren't against flash! They are pressuring adobe to lighten up on the use agreements. Maybe something so core as graphics description shouldn't be proprietary? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] Semantics
Standards only work to the extent that they apply protocol at the most effective strata in the stack. When adobe restricts graphics protocol that should live down near the lower reaches of the OS or below, to above the application level, they create an unstable and ultimately untenable imbalance in the stack that only serves to put the breaks on innovation and forward looking change. In any evolving system, progress towards optimization must supersede temporary success. Unstable awkward architectures act as dams that prevent natural flow. Only putrification and stagnation will result. And the dam will eventually burst as it is digested by its own content or overwhelmed by less artificially restrained flows that have found their own way towards progress despite the unnatural abomination in their way. Standards and optimal hierarchical placement thereof. Nothing else succeeds in the long run. Is rev or any xtalk solution really the future? The future belongs to those who optimize the stack. Adobe has a better mix of language and graphics than anyone else. That is why apple and microsoft are focusing their angst at adobe. If adobe didn't hold the ball, there would be no reason for such big players to throw such a tantrum... they would just join together and create their own protocol. The idea that rev should go its own and build towards less awkward standards is simply laughable. Rev is the poster boy for companies that hang on the coat tails of the work of others. Bottom feeders. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it isn't where you would go looking for red hot trail blazing innovation and standards. Hilarious. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
To look at photshop or illustrator as chronos as perfect form in their categories is like looking to some awkward plated dinosaur as pattern for the future of land animals. If the target of open source is restricted to the application layer we should expect nothing more than crippled duplicates of 20 year old ideas. And from this you push innovation? I have yet to hear an open source advocate talk to the evolution of technology. It is largely an ayn rand anarchist after school club for all white mall arcade raised nerds lacking in any real vision. That said, adobe kicks itself in the same profit seeking foot when it can't imaging a more profitable means of leveraging its IP than a suite of software in boxes and a hyper-aggressive junk yard dog approach to market access. Profit seeking isn't the devil... Stupid profit seeking is. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue
Also, adobe isn't doing any of its code donkeys any favors when it under exploits the market through old world protectionist business practices and an avoidance of future looking technology. As with retirement pools, an entity will never be able to sustain old obligations on the profits of old ideas. New ideas and new levels of profitability are the only way to pay the obligations owed to the inventors for efforts towards past innovations. If adobe really wants to profit from its own past it will have to figure out how to generalive and subsume the salient aspects of its IP to a layer new products and markets can build on top of. Holding on to software application markets born 20 years ago is a strategy born to fail. I think IBM Is a good lesson on how a company needs to think about maturing. Don't push your past solutions, push the human resources and resource management and infrastructure knowhow that your old product successes make evident. Sell the ability to make solutions, not solutions themselves. Give away the source as a way to market the minds. More money will flow in. Stock holders (the original innovators) will benefit more than thy would through draconian measures to extend the natural life of a product category. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] GameOver Mr. Jobs
I was being facetious (thought that was obvious). The level of anger voiced in this thread certainly exposes selfish profit centered motives. That fact alone needed to be exposed before things got too obnoxious. My bet is that mr jobs would love to keep the development and source as open as possible. My bet is that security risks made this openness impossible. The reputation apple products share is too valuable a commodity to mess with (even if that ends up making a few thousand xtalk old farts loose their cool). When the tantrum reached such a pitch that people started to deride basic economic truths I had to step in and play the court jester. It is especially monstrous that a person would brag about how easy it is to keep malware out of windows machines. It is like a coal miner standing outside a cancer ward yelling cancer happens to the weak. What I really don't understand is how the rev community self justifies the hypocrisy of the argument that apple is doing this out of selfishness when the truth is that rev and all xtalk development platforms support for graphics and motion video is so 1980s as to erase most of the advantage of the iphone ipad platform. So where does the fault really lay? If the ipad market really benefited from staying open to a community that could in no way produce ipad worthy user experiences, than jobs would never have closed it down. Quality control is a big marketing factor. Branding is effected by the consumer experience at the apple store. I must say here that the app store was designed for a few hundred apps and absolutely sucks at exposing tens of thousands of apps to the matched consumer. It works for selling knicknacks but a lot of apps have matured into full work tools (and apple is still selling them in their bloomingdales boutique). Jack hammers make for awkward shelf mates next to gold strappy pumps. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] GameOver Mr. Jobs
Thank you... Well said. Finally a realist! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] GameOver Mr. Jobs
yes... Apple's actual response. Thank you. Another realist. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] GameOver Mr. Jobs
Apple is in it for the money? Really? I thought they were a non-profit like Microsoft and Google. Stupid me. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] GameOver Mr. Jobs
Will someone please come right out and list the ways that their own life is going to suck now that mr jobs excluded rev from the blessed development environments list? Lets personalized this paranoia and frustration. Like criss rock said, I haven't seen white people this pissed off since they cancelled M*A*S*H. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Inserting a photo into a polygon?
Can I insert a photo or image into a polygon? How? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Rosetta (system performance hit?)
Is there one? Just having it installed? Randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Why the threatened continence? Why the need to frame this conversation as having anything to do with a question of the viability of RunRev? This thread started with a call to debate a journalist who asked some questions about the veracity of some rather strident marketing statements made by Revolution about its product. This call came from the runrev customer service manager, which I find slimy. However, both the comments made by the journalist/blogger and the marketing claims he referenced, surrounded the much more general merit of macro languages and user-programming environments that seek to automate much of the busywork code-minutia necessary in professional languages. This is not a rev specific issue as it is shared equally by all xtalk languages. So much of what Revolution claims as unique are in fact inherited (for free!) from hypercard and smalltalk, apple and xerox PARC. The fact so many on this list continue to treat runrev as some sickly child that needs to be protected is really ill-advised as public relations. Nor is this attitude based in reality. RunRev is in good standing. Has a decent customer base. Actions based in paranoia do more harm than good. The product is fine. The category is fine. Acting like hyenas just makes the product look like it is about to fall down and die. The very notion that a criticism of hyper- protective and overdrive spin mastering is akin to critism of the product is a great example of the paranoia of which I speak. It is ugly and it results in ugly public relations acts. The notion that runrev will somehow suffer if it acknowledges its stellar ancestry... even more absurd. Both Alan Kay and Bill Aktinson are canonized and deservingly so. They were visionaries far ahead of their peers. Want more, who also influenced the emergence of hypercard and hypertalk? How about Douglas Engelbart and Theodore (Ted) Nelson. RunRev's own separate lineage began with MetaCard and is distinguished by its insistence on multi-platform development and deployment. With the advent of a web player, runrev has done what only one other xtalk environment has done. And all of this deployed by the largest and most stable of the xtalk commercialization groups... these are the attributes runrev alone can claim. The rest of its history is merged with all other xtalk histories and should be acknowledged as such. We in the U.S. tend to envy the British for their innate tendency towards a particularly handsome form of understated but strong form of humility. The complex and influential heritage of both Britain and RunRev product are certainly deserving of the deep confidence from which I always assumed this humility arose. Randall Reetz On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:51 AM, Heather Nagey wrote: I just came across this: http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/ 0,100567,10014516o-2000458459b,00.htm Thought it would interest you guys! If you feel the urge to post a comment, the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive... it's probably best not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with his view. I think there is an interesting debate to be had here. Nice to see Rev starting to attract widespread media interest :) Regards, Heather Heather Nagey Customer Services Manager http://www.runrev.com/ RunRev - Software construction for everyone follow me on twitter http://www.twitter.com/lainopik ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Syllabic division of words
Sorry, I have been spelling phoneme wrong. Here is a link to the apple tech to which I refereed: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Mac/Sound/Sound-201.html It is part of the text-to-speech tool box. Makes sense. And it is available to all. I would be surprised if something similar wasn't also available in Windows and Unix. It works in reference to language-specific libraries, and is thus portable and localizable. On the Mac, SuperCard used to provide a hook into this functionality (maybe through an external). Randall On Aug 21, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: I didn't mean to imply that it would be easy. I am saying it is important. Much more important than the crap we get caught up in simply because the tools exist. Apple has a core technology in its text services tools that breaks text into base phonems and is language agnostic. Semantic processing will open up a whole new world to computer application. There are reasonable steps that can be taken right now that are no more absurd than what hypercard was to programming when it was revolutionary twenty some years ago. randall -Original Message- From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 1:05 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Syllabic division of words Randall Reetz wrote: These functions can be written upon a meta-grammatical base that will work across languages. Rev already does this in limited ways. I find these limits absurd and backwards. Provencial even. It is long past time to ask the big questions of computing as a field. We follow as sheep, even when we are in charge of computing's future. Perhaps you could enlighten RunRev and the rest of us sheep by providing scripted versions of these functions you'd like to see in the engine? From your description it doesn't sound like it would take much time. -Original Message- On 21 Aug 2009, at 19:16, Randall Reetz wrote: In addition to syllables, the system should be able to identify the following textual chunks: Characters Phonems Words Parts of speech (phrases) subject/object Semantic roots Sentences Paragraphs Sections Volumes Sets Lists Multidimentional arrays and nested tables Unlimited nested and overlapping hyperlinks and transclussions Tempo, pausing, pitch, volume, and percussive contrast Ontological association network mapping between any chunk or chunk type A simple, intuitive and robust interface and functional library to address and effect these objects at every hierarchy of the grammatical stack. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Revolution training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Syllabic division of words
Here is a link to apple's developer info about the Text Services codec: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/text/Text-409.html Apple offers a text summary service that will reduce a given hunk of text to any length specified. I don't know, but I would be surprised if the hooks into this tech do not offer other meaningful functionality that could be used to produce semantically salient condensations of text that could then be folded into a more robust and friendly set of tools for the acquisition of meaning at some useful level. Randall On Aug 21, 2009, at 1:38 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: Sorry, I have been spelling phoneme wrong. Here is a link to the apple tech to which I refereed: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Mac/Sound/Sound-201.html It is part of the text-to-speech tool box. Makes sense. And it is available to all. I would be surprised if something similar wasn't also available in Windows and Unix. It works in reference to language-specific libraries, and is thus portable and localizable. On the Mac, SuperCard used to provide a hook into this functionality (maybe through an external). Randall On Aug 21, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: I didn't mean to imply that it would be easy. I am saying it is important. Much more important than the crap we get caught up in simply because the tools exist. Apple has a core technology in its text services tools that breaks text into base phonems and is language agnostic. Semantic processing will open up a whole new world to computer application. There are reasonable steps that can be taken right now that are no more absurd than what hypercard was to programming when it was revolutionary twenty some years ago. randall -Original Message- From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 1:05 PM To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Syllabic division of words Randall Reetz wrote: These functions can be written upon a meta-grammatical base that will work across languages. Rev already does this in limited ways. I find these limits absurd and backwards. Provencial even. It is long past time to ask the big questions of computing as a field. We follow as sheep, even when we are in charge of computing's future. Perhaps you could enlighten RunRev and the rest of us sheep by providing scripted versions of these functions you'd like to see in the engine? From your description it doesn't sound like it would take much time. -Original Message- On 21 Aug 2009, at 19:16, Randall Reetz wrote: In addition to syllables, the system should be able to identify the following textual chunks: Characters Phonems Words Parts of speech (phrases) subject/object Semantic roots Sentences Paragraphs Sections Volumes Sets Lists Multidimentional arrays and nested tables Unlimited nested and overlapping hyperlinks and transclussions Tempo, pausing, pitch, volume, and percussive contrast Ontological association network mapping between any chunk or chunk type A simple, intuitive and robust interface and functional library to address and effect these objects at every hierarchy of the grammatical stack. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Revolution training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
