Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[webmaster-Kracked_P_P]

On 10/15/2012 07:48 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:

that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer
for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf

I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO
Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to
participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field.
Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge
versions available.

The point is that you do not only need a printer driver to generate the
PDF, but also an application that can open those .doc, .ppt etc. files.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


Wolfgang . . .

I use Writer's "Export to PDF" and CUPS-PDF [Ubuntu 12.04] both, to 
create PDF "prints" of my document. CUPS-PDF will "print" PDFs for any 
package that can print to a physical printer.  I use doPDF for Windows 
systems.


"Export to PDF" doesgreat, except for some of the real decortive fonts I 
may use.  Then I need to use CUPS-PDF.  The drawback with "CUPS-PDF is 
the document is always viewed in portrait mode even if the text is 
aligned in a landscape mode.


To be honest, I even use Writer to create eBooks for my tablet.  For 
some reason, I cannot get my tablet to read my ebooks on the installed 
microSD card.  Kindle for Android does not want to do it. So, after all 
my "testing" I figured it would be easier to create PDFs that was in the 
"print size" of a paperback, or at least my 7 inch tablet's screen. 
Right now, I open the .mobi files,or .epub files, and export them to a 
plain text file.  Then I open them in Writer and use the A6 page size 
[4.13 by 5.83 inches] and reduce the margins down to .15 inches.  Then I 
export them to a PDF file.  That process works well.  Actually the only 
way I can get the Kindle reader to read a file on the added microSD card 
is to open a PDF file using the file manager.  This way will not work 
with any other file type forKindle, but it does workwith PDF.  I do not 
have a Kindle tablet, but a $100 Trio Stealth Pro, since that was all I 
could afford at the time.


SO, Writer does a lot of things that a "reader/converter" app cannot do. 
I cancreate PDF eBooks from free plain text files, or even other file 
formats with a little help.


I now have 3 six-foot high bookshelf units staked 2 and 3 deep with 
paperback books.  I am currently working on getting as many of those 
books in both audio and eBook formats.  Then, if I ever have to reduce 
the number of books, or make room for newones, I will have them still in 
eBook, and maybe audio book, format. Writer helps me take the .epub and 
.mobi books and convert them into something I can use on my tablet.  Of 
course, I could move/copy them over to the internal 4 GB card, but I 
would rather leave them on the removable 32 GB microSD card.



Last year, I would not have imagined that I would use Writer, and some 
helper-apps to make usable eBooks for a tablet.  Last year I did not 
think I would ever buy a table either.


Actually I use Writer for "quick" posters for people.  If itis a complex 
poster, I use Inkscape, but slowly learning what Draw can do. Actually I 
create anew/revised logo for a non-profit organization that I created 
the original logo for.  I used Draw this time, just to practicewith it.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> > that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer
> > for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf

> I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO
> Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to
> participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field.
> Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge
> versions available.

The point is that you do not only need a printer driver to generate the
PDF, but also an application that can open those .doc, .ppt etc. files.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> But Ooo/LO does use structure markup. All .odt/.ods documents are XML
> files.

XML is just syntax. It does not necessarily imply structure markup, as
shown by e.g. .docx and .odt. Just unzip an .odt document and open
contents.xml in a XML editor to see what "spaghetti xml" looks like.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[webmaster-Kracked_P_P]

On 10/10/2012 12:11 AM, rost52 wrote:

On 2012-10-09 18:50, Marcello Romani wrote:

that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for
anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf
I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO 
Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to 
participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field. 
Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge 
versions available.


 but having a pdf-writer incorporated is one of the nice features 
of LO.




Yes there are external PDF file writers that are free.  doPDF for 
Windows  and CUPS-PDF for Linux are the ones I use.  BUT, having an 
internal Export-to-PDF option is always a food idea.  It defaults to the 
folder the original document file is saved in. External ones do not.  
Export-to-PDF does have issues with embedding some specialty fonts, but 
it does not force the PDF file to be in Portrait mode line CUPS-PDF does.


I do not get the race-car vs. tractor image.  Are you thinking about a 
package the just does the conversion instead of having a full office 
suite that can do it as part of its abilities?


Since PDF is touted as the "standard" format for sending documents or 
having them online, it is important to make it easy for the users to 
create a PDF version of their document.


To be honest, I use CUPS-PDF as my "default printer". That way I can 
print out web pages and only print the physical pages I want. Same with 
emails and any other package that will allow you to print.  Saves a lot 
of paper that way.  Also, LO does not create duplex prints for me, most 
of the time, do to an issue that came up last year.  So creating a PDF 
file and using the default PDF viewer and printing from there is how I 
get my duplex printed documents.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 10/10/2012 06:11, rost52 ha scritto:

On 2012-10-09 18:50, Marcello Romani wrote:

that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for
anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf

I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO
Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to
participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field. Why
not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge versions
available.

 but having a pdf-writer incorporated is one of the nice features of
LO.



I always use pdfwriter from sourceforge.

OTOH, if one wants to convert MS Word doc file to PDF without 
instaslling MS softwrae, LO/OO is the only (IME) option.


--
Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Dr. R. O Stapf]

On 2012-10-09 18:24, John Clegg wrote:

Forgive me, but I thought one of the aims of LO was improvements to
usability. I open emails mailed to me dozens of times a day. Doing Save-As,
or clicking the edit button takes little time I agree, but why is it so
wrong to desire that as the default to save me time?
Now please forgive me but I feel that especially the explanations by Andreas pointed out very 
clearly that r/w features of a file attached to a mail is caused by the email SW.  This means, your 
request needs to be brought into a discussion forum for email SW.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[rost52]

On 2012-10-09 18:50, Marcello Romani wrote:

that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for
anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf
I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO Writer to convert doc into pdf 
appears to me like using a tractor to participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a 
field. Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge versions available.


 but having a pdf-writer incorporated is one of the nice features of LO.

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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 09.10.2012 11:24, John Clegg wrote:
> Forgive me, but I thought one of the aims of LO was improvements to
> usability. I open emails mailed to me dozens of times a day. Doing Save-As,
> or clicking the edit button takes little time I agree, but why is it so
> wrong to desire that as the default to save me time?
> 

As a third option you can tell your mail client to *detach* the
attachment instead of viewing it. It is always your mail client which
creates the read-only file for good reasons. The main reason is that you
lose work when you save your modifications to a temporary file.

Just open some attachment for viewing and get
office-menu:File>Properties...
On the first tab you see the location of the file that has been
extracted from text encoded mail box content. It might be a file in a
temporary folder. It may have a randomized file name. If it were
writable you could edit the file for hours and hours without knowing
where all your work gets written to. After a reboot everything could be
lost because it is normal behaviour that the temporary directory is
cleared on shutdown.

It takes some tiny precautions to specify your own file in your own file
system where you can recall your saved work.
If you are not interested in your own copy of the file because you want
to edit and forward via mail then a simple click on the edit button lets
you edit, send and close without saving.
But then you are aware that you are writing into the memory of your
computer without saving to disk.

Reportedly, there exists an extension for the Thunderbird mail client
which saves all attachments as writable files in a dedicated directory
on your own file system. I don't know any details.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 07/10/2012 20:32, Wolfgang Keller ha scritto:

Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of
spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc...

Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every
line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get
everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters
once for the whole document and that's it.


LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around
1994.


MS Word 5.0 for DOS was published in 1989. As the first document
processing software in history that couldn't print. Because MS was
unable/too lazy to supply printer drivers in time for the release.


I'm not saying MS Word for DOS was a good or bad program. My point is 
even word-processing-for-the-masses programs like MS Word for DOS let 
the user avoid "clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and 
every line of text". Since forever. By using styles.





It's called "styles". Which incidentally don't provide only
formatting information, but also tell the word processor where that
particular paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal
structure.


The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that,
unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly
unstructured ("spaghetti"), and the way "styles" are implemented they do
not allow to "emulate" "structure markup" convincingly.


Maybe there's a reason why we still have "serious" publishing software 
although word processing packages have been aroud for decades now.




As soon as you try to author significantly complex documents with it you
will notice this. At least if you've ever done similar work with
document processing software that does allow to use "structure markup".

I've used over a dozen different document processing applications over
the past >20 years, and from day one I have always used "structure
markup" without even knowing about the expression since for me it was
just the natural way to work with documents, but I've never used a
document processing software that made "structure markup" as thoroughly
impossible as MS Word or LO/OO.


I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other
examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should
not keep the MS Office-style "spaghetti" content models that were
already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but
instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that
allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus
more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst "example" in the
market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow.


Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago
became an ISO standard) uses a "spaghetti content model" ?


Unfortunately, LO/OO is just a 1:1 clone of MS Office. And yes, the MS
"document model" is plain spaghetti, as is LO/OO's. It's a pity, but


Ok, so you think ODF document model is "spaghetti". Probably it's true. 
I don't know. We should probably ask TDF about it.



that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for
anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf.


LO/OO clearly doesn't satisfy your needs. Good to know.



The problem with Calc is the same, btw: Instead of "cloning" a good,
well designed example (i.e. Lotus Improv), it is just a 1:1 clone of the
worst spreadhseet available, i.e. "Excel" (what an orwellish branding).

Sincerely,

Wolfgang





--
Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
Regards from
Tom :)  

--- On Tue, 9/10/12, Marcello Romani  wrote:

From: Marcello Romani 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
renting their office products instead
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 9 October, 2012, 8:14

Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto:
> OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an
> in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action?

So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ?

Sounds good to me.

-- Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[John Clegg]

Forgive me, but I thought one of the aims of LO was improvements to
usability. I open emails mailed to me dozens of times a day. Doing Save-As,
or clicking the edit button takes little time I agree, but why is it so
wrong to desire that as the default to save me time?

On 9 October 2012 10:18, Andreas Säger  wrote:

> Am 09.10.2012 09:14, Marcello Romani wrote:
> > Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto:
> >> OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't
> >> opening an
> >> in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action?
> >
> > So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear
> ?
> >
> > Sounds good to me.
> >
>
> Again, it is not the office program which creates read-only files. In
> most cases some other application calls the office to *view* some
> document. In most cases the office is called by a browser, mail client
> or cloud application to view online content or mail attachments.
>
> There are many reasons why this application has a viewing mode. It must
> not open some document in unsaved template mode just because the file is
> read-only. That would be extremely annoying for many users.
> Most of our ODF documents (documentations, print-outs, database forms,
> reports) are strictly read-only because only one person (me, the file
> owner) is supposed to modify these. The co-workers can work with the
> contained material (read, print, mail as PDF, edit databases through
> forms).
>
> All you've got to do is hitting the edit button in order to get an
> editable new and unsaved document.
> All you've got to do is saving the same document in your own file system
> in order to get your own editable copy of the document.
>
> Some Microsoft "feature" carries over the read-only flag when an
> application saves a document under another name. I'd call this a bug. No
> other file system behaves that silly. You need to turn it off in the
> file properties (right-click file in Win Explorer>Properties...).
>
> There is also an internal read-only mode implemented in the office
> program (File>Save As... save with password, open read-only with
> password). But that is another story. The internal flag within the
> document does not protect the file from being manipulated by other
> applications and the read-only status is carried with every copy of the
> file.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 09/10/2012 11:18, Andreas Säger ha scritto:

Am 09.10.2012 09:14, Marcello Romani wrote:

Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto:

OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't
opening an
in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action?


So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ?

Sounds good to me.


After all I probably answered too quickly... :P





Again, it is not the office program which creates read-only files. In
most cases some other application calls the office to *view* some
document. In most cases the office is called by a browser, mail client
or cloud application to view online content or mail attachments.

There are many reasons why this application has a viewing mode. It must
not open some document in unsaved template mode just because the file is
read-only. That would be extremely annoying for many users.
Most of our ODF documents (documentations, print-outs, database forms,
reports) are strictly read-only because only one person (me, the file
owner) is supposed to modify these. The co-workers can work with the
contained material (read, print, mail as PDF, edit databases through forms).

All you've got to do is hitting the edit button in order to get an
editable new and unsaved document.
All you've got to do is saving the same document in your own file system
in order to get your own editable copy of the document.

Some Microsoft "feature" carries over the read-only flag when an
application saves a document under another name. I'd call this a bug. No
other file system behaves that silly. You need to turn it off in the
file properties (right-click file in Win Explorer>Properties...).

There is also an internal read-only mode implemented in the office
program (File>Save As... save with password, open read-only with
password). But that is another story. The internal flag within the
document does not protect the file from being manipulated by other
applications and the read-only status is carried with every copy of the
file.




Well, it seems if one thinks twice about the issue at hand, one must 
come to the conclusion that what we have now is a good compromise 
between functionality/security/ease of use.




--
Marcello Romani

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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 09.10.2012 09:14, Marcello Romani wrote:
> Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto:
>> OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't
>> opening an
>> in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action?
> 
> So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ?
> 
> Sounds good to me.
> 

Again, it is not the office program which creates read-only files. In
most cases some other application calls the office to *view* some
document. In most cases the office is called by a browser, mail client
or cloud application to view online content or mail attachments.

There are many reasons why this application has a viewing mode. It must
not open some document in unsaved template mode just because the file is
read-only. That would be extremely annoying for many users.
Most of our ODF documents (documentations, print-outs, database forms,
reports) are strictly read-only because only one person (me, the file
owner) is supposed to modify these. The co-workers can work with the
contained material (read, print, mail as PDF, edit databases through forms).

All you've got to do is hitting the edit button in order to get an
editable new and unsaved document.
All you've got to do is saving the same document in your own file system
in order to get your own editable copy of the document.

Some Microsoft "feature" carries over the read-only flag when an
application saves a document under another name. I'd call this a bug. No
other file system behaves that silly. You need to turn it off in the
file properties (right-click file in Win Explorer>Properties...).

There is also an internal read-only mode implemented in the office
program (File>Save As... save with password, open read-only with
password). But that is another story. The internal flag within the
document does not protect the file from being manipulated by other
applications and the read-only status is carried with every copy of the
file.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto:

OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an
in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action?


So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ?

Sounds good to me.

--
Marcello Romani

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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 08.10.2012 14:13, John Clegg wrote:
> OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an
> in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action?
> 

Tell your mail client, browser, whatever to call soffice with the -n
switch. The -n switch treats every document as if it were a template.
The builders of your mail client, browser, whatever can not know about this.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[John Clegg]

OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an
in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action?

On 8 October 2012 13:08, Marcello Romani  wrote:

> Il 05/10/2012 17:18, Marcello Romani ha scritto:
>
>> Il 05/10/2012 16:31, webmaster-Kracked_P_P ha scritto:
>>
>>> On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:
>>>
 Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto:

> One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO
> behaves
> differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it
> places a
> copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it
> read-only
> whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an
> option to
> get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
> before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes
> quite an
> irritant.
>

 It's just a "modify document" button click away. But I guess it's more
 a "problem" of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO
 as such.

 The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp
 folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO
 will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly.

 Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm
 or correct me ?


>>> This open as a read only is a "security feature" from before LO came
>>> out.  I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003.
>>>
>>> The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is
>>> stored in a TEMP folder.  Those files are, by nature, read-only till
>>> they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder.
>>>
>>> I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any
>>> email attachments placed in a "normal" data folder without me saving it
>>> there.  That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all
>>> the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's
>>> TEMP folder content.
>>>
>>> We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could
>>> suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be
>>> and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system
>>> file.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> If those files weren't read only there would be other, more serious
>> complaints from users (I had one).
>> The user would doubleclick on an attachment and have it open r/w in
>> OOo/LibO/MSO. He would start modifying it right away (no hassle!), then
>> save it. Then close the word processor and forget about it.
>> Then after a little while go to the IT guy asking where the hell is that
>> document that he just "saved".
>>
>> Being readonly, instead, forces the user to click on that damned icon,
>> so the program produces an in-memory r/w copy of the document that will
>> trigger a "save as" procedure when the user would click "save".
>>
>>
>
> There was a missing bit in my description: if the attachment would be
> opened R/W, the file would be saved in the user's temp folder. So it would
> be lost at best, or in worst case scenario deleted as temp folders gets
> cleaned.
>
> --
> Marcello Romani
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 05/10/2012 17:18, Marcello Romani ha scritto:

Il 05/10/2012 16:31, webmaster-Kracked_P_P ha scritto:

On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:

Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto:

One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO
behaves
differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it
places a
copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it
read-only
whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an
option to
get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes
quite an
irritant.


It's just a "modify document" button click away. But I guess it's more
a "problem" of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO
as such.

The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp
folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO
will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly.

Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm
or correct me ?



This open as a read only is a "security feature" from before LO came
out.  I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003.

The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is
stored in a TEMP folder.  Those files are, by nature, read-only till
they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder.

I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any
email attachments placed in a "normal" data folder without me saving it
there.  That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all
the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's
TEMP folder content.

We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could
suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be
and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system
file.





If those files weren't read only there would be other, more serious
complaints from users (I had one).
The user would doubleclick on an attachment and have it open r/w in
OOo/LibO/MSO. He would start modifying it right away (no hassle!), then
save it. Then close the word processor and forget about it.
Then after a little while go to the IT guy asking where the hell is that
document that he just "saved".

Being readonly, instead, forces the user to click on that damned icon,
so the program produces an in-memory r/w copy of the document that will
trigger a "save as" procedure when the user would click "save".




There was a missing bit in my description: if the attachment would be 
opened R/W, the file would be saved in the user's temp folder. So it 
would be lost at best, or in worst case scenario deleted as temp folders 
gets cleaned.


--
Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Girvin R. Herr]

Greetings,
This thread has been ongoing for a relatively long time now and IMHO it 
has forked many times and veared off of its original message: that MS 
was to start renting their software and the lock on users that that 
implies.  Well, as we have been debating all these forked threads, there 
are other mainstream software suppliers that have also signed on to the 
software rental business model.  Although this is not directly 
competitive with LO, it is related to the subject and may interest 
office suite users.  I see today in our local big-box office supplies 
outlet advertisement that Adobe is now renting their mainstream software 
such as Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Dreamweaver and Adobe Create Cloud.  They 
call it a "subscription", but it looks like rental to me.  On one 
listing for example, the "subscription" for Adobe Photoshop is listed at 
$59.99 (US) and the rental period is only 3 months!  I don't know what 
Photoshop is selling for since I don't use it, but that seems expensive 
to me.  Maybe I am just cheap or unrealistic in today's market.  In all 
cases, I am *never* going to put my data at the mercy of a corporation - 
whether it be "the cloud" or limited-usage rented maintenance tools.  I 
still have the scars from doing that in the past.

I'm getting off my soapbox now...
Girvin Herr

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[jomali]

But Ooo/LO does use structure markup. All .odt/.ods documents are XML files.

On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Wolfgang Keller  wrote:

> > > Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of
> > > spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc...
> > >
> > > Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every
> > > line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get
> > > everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters
> > > once for the whole document and that's it.
> >
> > LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around
> > 1994.
>
> MS Word 5.0 for DOS was published in 1989. As the first document
> processing software in history that couldn't print. Because MS was
> unable/too lazy to supply printer drivers in time for the release.
>
> > It's called "styles". Which incidentally don't provide only
> > formatting information, but also tell the word processor where that
> > particular paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal
> > structure.
>
> The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that,
> unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly
> unstructured ("spaghetti"), and the way "styles" are implemented they do
> not allow to "emulate" "structure markup" convincingly.
>
> As soon as you try to author significantly complex documents with it you
> will notice this. At least if you've ever done similar work with
> document processing software that does allow to use "structure markup".
>
> I've used over a dozen different document processing applications over
> the past >20 years, and from day one I have always used "structure
> markup" without even knowing about the expression since for me it was
> just the natural way to work with documents, but I've never used a
> document processing software that made "structure markup" as thoroughly
> impossible as MS Word or LO/OO.
>
> > > I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other
> > > examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should
> > > not keep the MS Office-style "spaghetti" content models that were
> > > already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but
> > > instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that
> > > allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus
> > > more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst "example" in the
> > > market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow.
> >
> > Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago
> > became an ISO standard) uses a "spaghetti content model" ?
>
> Unfortunately, LO/OO is just a 1:1 clone of MS Office. And yes, the MS
> "document model" is plain spaghetti, as is LO/OO's. It's a pity, but
> that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for
> anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf.
>
> The problem with Calc is the same, btw: Instead of "cloning" a good,
> well designed example (i.e. Lotus Improv), it is just a 1:1 clone of the
> worst spreadhseet available, i.e. "Excel" (what an orwellish branding).
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Mirosław Zalewski]

On 07/10/2012 at 20:32, Wolfgang Keller  wrote:

> The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that,
> unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly
> unstructured ("spaghetti"), and the way "styles" are implemented they do
> not allow to "emulate" "structure markup" convincingly.

Could you explain this for those of us who have never used Wordperfect or 
FrameMaker? I still fail to understand why "styles" can not "emulate" 
"structure markup".
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> > Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of
> > spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc...
> >
> > Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every
> > line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get
> > everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters
> > once for the whole document and that's it.
> 
> LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around
> 1994.

MS Word 5.0 for DOS was published in 1989. As the first document
processing software in history that couldn't print. Because MS was
unable/too lazy to supply printer drivers in time for the release.

> It's called "styles". Which incidentally don't provide only
> formatting information, but also tell the word processor where that
> particular paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal
> structure.

The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that,
unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly
unstructured ("spaghetti"), and the way "styles" are implemented they do
not allow to "emulate" "structure markup" convincingly.

As soon as you try to author significantly complex documents with it you
will notice this. At least if you've ever done similar work with
document processing software that does allow to use "structure markup".

I've used over a dozen different document processing applications over
the past >20 years, and from day one I have always used "structure
markup" without even knowing about the expression since for me it was
just the natural way to work with documents, but I've never used a
document processing software that made "structure markup" as thoroughly
impossible as MS Word or LO/OO.

> > I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other
> > examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should
> > not keep the MS Office-style "spaghetti" content models that were
> > already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but
> > instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that
> > allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus
> > more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst "example" in the
> > market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow.
> 
> Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago
> became an ISO standard) uses a "spaghetti content model" ?

Unfortunately, LO/OO is just a 1:1 clone of MS Office. And yes, the MS
"document model" is plain spaghetti, as is LO/OO's. It's a pity, but
that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for
anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf.

The problem with Calc is the same, btw: Instead of "cloning" a good,
well designed example (i.e. Lotus Improv), it is just a 1:1 clone of the
worst spreadhseet available, i.e. "Excel" (what an orwellish branding).

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 06.10.2012 20:18, Jay Lozier wrote:
> VBS macros in MSO documents have been used to infect Windows computers.
> The issue is what is good practice regardless of the OS. If you follow
> good practices, the possibility of problems is significantly reduced.

Bullshit.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/06/2012 01:27 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Jay Lozier wrote:
>
>> On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote:
>>> On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
 Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:
> I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??
>
 Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
 downloads, mail attachments).
>>>
>>>
>>>   Why?
>>>
>>>
>>>   What if I want to edit it?  Are you outlawing collaborative
>>> work?  I'm confused.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Spencer
>>>
>> Spencer
>>
>> Usually "Save As" 'will allow you to create an editable version.
>>
>> The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are
>> only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or
>> editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with
>> malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to
>> verify before granting full privileges on their computers.
>>
>> Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers
>> computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect
>> but puts another step in the way of disaster.
>
> I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as
> writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works
> on Windows.
>
> how would infection occur?
VBS macros in MSO documents have been used to infect Windows computers.
The issue is what is good practice regardless of the OS. If you follow
good practices, the possibility of problems is significantly reduced.
>
> (if you download an .exe file in Windows, it wouldn't matter if it's
> writable, right?)
>
> F.
>


-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 06.10.2012 19:59, Felmon Davis wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Mirosław Zalewski wrote:
> 
>> On 06/10/2012 at 19:27, Felmon Davis  wrote:
>>
>>> I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as
>>> writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it
>>> works on Windows.
>>>
>>> how would infection occur?
>>
>> It's rather that in read-only mode, office suite will not run any
>> macros attached to document, despite macro security configuration.
> 
> thank you for the clear and illuminating answer.
> 
> F.
> 

... which is plain wrong like so many answers on this particular list.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Felmon Davis]

On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Mirosław Zalewski wrote:


On 06/10/2012 at 19:27, Felmon Davis  wrote:

I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as 
writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works 
on Windows.


how would infection occur?


It's rather that in read-only mode, office suite will not run any macros 
attached to document, despite macro security configuration.


thank you for the clear and illuminating answer.

F.

--
Felmon Davis

He is such a steady worker that he is really motionless.
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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 06.10.2012 19:16, John Clegg wrote:
> Whilst a condom is always wise I still prefer to put it on for
> myself
> 

If you prefer to not choose anything, the other side will take her own
precautions.

-- Your mail/cloud client creates a *temporary file for viewing* unless
you explicitly *downloaded* your own copy of the document. You can never
be sure about the life time, location or file name of a temporary file.
Your modification on a temporary file will be all lost on restart. If
you want an editable file you need to download your own copy to a
location and file name of your choice.

-- Any other application which allows me to edit a document loaded from
a read-only file will not allow me to save the modified document to the
same file. It will force me to choose another path-name to store my
modifications.

-- The application which displays the document loaded from a read-only
file is not the application which is responsible for the read-only
status of that file.

-- LibreOffice never ever modifies the read-write status of any file on
your entire file system. It has no means to do such things.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Mirosław Zalewski]

On 06/10/2012 at 19:27, Felmon Davis  wrote:

> I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as 
> writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works 
> on Windows.
> 
> how would infection occur?

It's rather that in read-only mode, office suite will not run any macros 
attached to document, despite macro security configuration.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Felmon Davis]

On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Jay Lozier wrote:


On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote:

On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:

Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:

I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??


Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
downloads, mail attachments).



  Why?


  What if I want to edit it?  Are you outlawing collaborative
work?  I'm confused.


  Spencer


Spencer

Usually "Save As" 'will allow you to create an editable version.

The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are
only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or
editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with
malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to
verify before granting full privileges on their computers.

Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers
computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect
but puts another step in the way of disaster.


I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as 
writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works 
on Windows.


how would infection occur?

(if you download an .exe file in Windows, it wouldn't matter if it's 
writable, right?)


F.

--
Felmon Davis

A good word costs no more than a bad one.  -- B. Googe
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[John Clegg]

Whilst a condom is always wise I still prefer to put it on for
myself

On 6 October 2012 18:13, Jay Lozier  wrote:

> On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote:
> > On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
> >> Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:
> >>> I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??
> >>>
> >> Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
> >> downloads, mail attachments).
> >
> >
> >   Why?
> >
> >
> >   What if I want to edit it?  Are you outlawing collaborative
> > work?  I'm confused.
> >
> >
> >   Spencer
> >
> Spencer
>
> Usually "Save As" 'will allow you to create an editable version.
>
> The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are
> only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or
> editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with
> malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to
> verify before granting full privileges on their computers.
>
> Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers
> computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect
> but puts another step in the way of disaster.
>
> --
> Jay Lozier
> jsloz...@gmail.com
>
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote:
> On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
>> Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:
>>> I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??
>>>
>> Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
>> downloads, mail attachments).
>
>
>   Why?
>
>
>   What if I want to edit it?  Are you outlawing collaborative
> work?  I'm confused.
>
>
>   Spencer
>
Spencer

Usually "Save As" 'will allow you to create an editable version.

The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are
only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or
editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with
malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to
verify before granting full privileges on their computers.

Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers
computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect
but puts another step in the way of disaster.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 06.10.2012 17:37, Spencer Graves wrote:
> On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
>> Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:
>>> I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??
>>>
>> Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
>> downloads, mail attachments).
> 
> 
>   Why?
> 
> 
>   What if I want to edit it?  Are you outlawing collaborative work? 
> I'm confused.
> 
> 
>   Spencer
> 

Browsers and mail clients have 2 commands to handle document files. One
command for viewing and another for downloading. When you download a
document (or detach it from a mail) then you create a new file copy in
your own file system (home directory or Windows "My Files"). You specify
the location of that file and you get the ownership of the file. You can
find the file at any time and it will be included in your automatic backup.
When you "open" a document by clicking a browser link you get some other
computer's document *for viewing*. Technically, the browser downloads a
copy of that document to a *temporary* folder on your file system and
starts the associated application to open the read-only file.
Under no circumstance LibreOffice is able to change the read-write
status of any file on the file system. It is always your browser or your
mail client which creates the read-only copy for instant viewing before
the respective application gets started to show the file.
You do not know the temporary directory, the temporary file may have a
randomized file name, the temporary file might be deleted on next system
start.

Some other applications may allow you to edit the loaded read-only file
but as soon as you save the file you would be prompted for a new
location since no application is able to overwrite a read-only file.
I definitively prefer the way how LibO handles the temporary, unknown file.

Collaboration on one document goes like this:
You open an inbox attachment for viewing.
You click the edit button, do your work and call File>Send>...
The incoming mail with its attachment won't be changed. Your outgoing
version resides in the outbox. When you save your document to disk you
better choose the ODF file format. When you send the file you choose PDF
for finished documents, doc/xls for collaboration with MS users and you
ODF for normal document exchange.



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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

[From the great minds think alike department]

Microsoft SkyDrive accepts and presents, via the Office Web Applications, ODF 
documents.  (These applications support a nice variety of features but not all 
features of the full Microsoft Office applications are supported, and there are 
warnings about those if noticed in an uploaded document that is opened for 
editing via browser.)

In presenting an ODF document, it is opened read only, with an indication that 
has been done.

If the Edit button is depressed, SkyDrive makes a *copy* of the document and 
opens that for editing.  The original, uploaded ODF document is not touched.  
There is a warning that some features of the document may not be preserved.  
(The editing is being done in Word, and features that are not imported into 
Word will be lost.  Also, use of Word features that don't export will be lost 
too.)

That strikes me as a nicely cautious way to handle formats that are not the 
"natively-supported" format of an application.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Spencer Graves [mailto:spencer.gra...@prodsyse.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 08:37
To: ville...@t-online.de
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
renting their office products instead

On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
> Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:
>> I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??
>>
> Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
> downloads, mail attachments).


   Why?


   What if I want to edit it?  Are you outlawing collaborative 
work?  I'm confused.


   Spencer

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Spencer Graves]

On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:

Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:

I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??


Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
downloads, mail attachments).



  Why?


  What if I want to edit it?  Are you outlawing collaborative 
work?  I'm confused.



  Spencer

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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote:
> I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??
> 

Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web
downloads, mail attachments).



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
If only you could be strict with those people and demand 
1.  a Pdf so you can see how it's meant to look
2.  Images as separate files in image formats
3.  The article in .doc format
For me that would be just about perfect.  

Even with .docs the formatting some people fall into is fairly insane but at 
least i can paste-as-unformatted text and then fix it.  If they give the Pdf i 
stand some chance of getting reasonably close.  

A local magazine wants us to send them an advert in .doc format and our 
art-work (logos etc) also in .doc format?!?!!?  wtf?  Luckily they claim to 
like scalar vector formats so i'm sending them .EPSs instead.  I can't read eps 
myself (the colours go weird and/or dotty) so it might be interesting to see 
what result i get.  

Regards from
Tom :)  







>
> From: Doug 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Friday, 5 October 2012, 18:01
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
>renting their office products instead
> 
>On 10/05/2012 05:07 AM, John Clegg wrote:
>> One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves
>> differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a
>> copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only
>> whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to
>> get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
>> before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an
>> irritant.
>>
>> On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski  wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52  wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features
>>>> in IMPRESS badly
>>> Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly?
>>> I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say
>>> "LO is
>>> missing some features", but such statements tend to not be supported by
>>> descriptions of features in question.
>>> --
>>> Best regards
>>> Mirosław Zalewski
>>>
>>> -
>This thread has deviated 100% from its initiation, but in its present 
>guise,
>I offer this, re MSO:  I am the editor of a small Newsletter 
>(circulation ~1000)
>and I am sent copy in .dos format that was made by MSWord on a Mac.
>Most often, none of the programs I have on Linux will correctly open
>the files. OO, LO, and Symphony all print the copy pushed off the the right
>and over the edge of the page margin. Nothing will salvage the file and
>make it useful.  WordPerfect (XP or Win7) will write them perfectly.
>A similar situation exists for the supposedly universal .rtf files, except
>they are sometimes even worse to make readable than .doc files. I no
>longer accept .rtf files at all.
>
>--doug
>
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>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Doug]

On 10/05/2012 05:07 AM, John Clegg wrote:

One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves
differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a
copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only
whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to
get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an
irritant.

On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski  wrote:


On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52  wrote:


I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features
in IMPRESS badly

Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly?
I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say
"LO is
missing some features", but such statements tend to not be supported by
descriptions of features in question.
--
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

-
This thread has deviated 100% from its initiation, but in its present 
guise,
I offer this, re MSO:  I am the editor of a small Newsletter 
(circulation ~1000)

and I am sent copy in .dos format that was made by MSWord on a Mac.
Most often, none of the programs I have on Linux will correctly open
the files. OO, LO, and Symphony all print the copy pushed off the the right
and over the edge of the page margin. Nothing will salvage the file and
make it useful.  WordPerfect (XP or Win7) will write them perfectly.
A similar situation exists for the supposedly universal .rtf files, except
they are sometimes even worse to make readable than .doc files. I no
longer accept .rtf files at all.

--doug

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 05/10/2012 16:31, webmaster-Kracked_P_P ha scritto:

On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:

Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto:

One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO
behaves
differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it
places a
copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only
whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to
get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes
quite an
irritant.


It's just a "modify document" button click away. But I guess it's more
a "problem" of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO
as such.

The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp
folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO
will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly.

Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm
or correct me ?



This open as a read only is a "security feature" from before LO came
out.  I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003.

The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is
stored in a TEMP folder.  Those files are, by nature, read-only till
they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder.

I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any
email attachments placed in a "normal" data folder without me saving it
there.  That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all
the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's
TEMP folder content.

We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could
suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be
and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system
file.





If those files weren't read only there would be other, more serious 
complaints from users (I had one).
The user would doubleclick on an attachment and have it open r/w in 
OOo/LibO/MSO. He would start modifying it right away (no hassle!), then 
save it. Then close the word processor and forget about it.
Then after a little while go to the IT guy asking where the hell is that 
document that he just "saved".


Being readonly, instead, forces the user to click on that damned icon, 
so the program produces an in-memory r/w copy of the document that will 
trigger a "save as" procedure when the user would click "save".


--
Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[webmaster-Kracked_P_P]

On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:

Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto:
One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO 
behaves
differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it 
places a

copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only
whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to
get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes 
quite an

irritant.


It's just a "modify document" button click away. But I guess it's more 
a "problem" of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO 
as such.


The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp 
folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO 
will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly.


Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm 
or correct me ?




This open as a read only is a "security feature" from before LO came 
out.  I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003.


The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is 
stored in a TEMP folder.  Those files are, by nature, read-only till 
they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder.


I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any 
email attachments placed in a "normal" data folder without me saving it 
there.  That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all 
the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's 
TEMP folder content.


We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could 
suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be 
and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system 
file.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 29/09/2012 20:10, Wolfgang Keller ha scritto:

- actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g.
LaTeX Beamer provides.


Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but
never really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to
offer that LO is not capable of.


Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of
spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc...

Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every
line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the
way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole
document and that's it.


LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around 1994. 
It's called "styles". Which incidentally don't provide only formatting 
information, but also tell the word processor where that particular 
paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal structure.





As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every
feature of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current
WYSIWYG). I strongly believe that target group of LibreOffice is
different than target group of LaTeX. LaTeX is already free, vital
community exists, there are dedicated editors - users who prefer
LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX.


I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other examples
are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should not keep the
MS Office-style "spaghetti" content models that were already outdated in
the 80s and pile up features on top, but instead LO should focus on
providing a functional concept that allows users to work with documents
in a more structured and thus more efficient way. MS Office is by far
the worst "example" in the market. And, as such, the example *not* to
follow.


Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago became 
an ISO standard) uses a "spaghetti content model" ?




Sincerely,

Wolfgang



--
Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto:

One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves
differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a
copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only
whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to
get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an
irritant.


It's just a "modify document" button click away. But I guess it's more a 
"problem" of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO as such.


The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp 
folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO will 
just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly.


Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm or 
correct me ?


--
Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[John Clegg]

I thought LO was emulating MSO 97??

On 5 October 2012 13:00, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

> On 05/10/12 10:07, John Clegg wrote:
>
>> whereas Excel opens it as read-write.
>>
> That behaviour has changed in MS Office 2010 - email attachments are
> opened as read-only by default..
> --
>
> Registered Linux User no 240308
> GBP's alternative 
> computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.**blogspot.com/
>  Say No to OOXMLhttp://
> www.linuxjournal.**com/article/9594#mpart8
> I only accept odf or pdf documents by email
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 05/10/12 10:07, John Clegg wrote:

whereas Excel opens it as read-write.
That behaviour has changed in MS Office 2010 - email attachments are 
opened as read-only by default..

--

Registered Linux User no 240308
GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/  
Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8

I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I have a similar(ish) issue with files stored on a network share and then read 
by a mix of Ubuntu and Windows machines.  Each time one OS reads it the other 
can only open read-only.  However that forces us to use a simple versioning 
system and means we always have lots of back-ups.  So, it's kinda saving me the 
hassle of trying to explain why back-ups are a good idea.  

The default keyboard short-cut 
Alt F then a
to "Save As ..." is really fiddly
Regards from
Tom :)  


From: John Clegg 
 To: Mirosław Zalewski  
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org 
 Sent: Friday, 5 October 2012, 10:07
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users]
 Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products 
instead
   
One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves
differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a
copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only
whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to
get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an
irritant.

On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski  wrote:

> On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52  wrote:
>
> > I am missing (compared to MSO)
 a few features
> > in IMPRESS badly
>
> Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly?
> I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say
> "LO is
> missing some features", but such statements tend to not be supported by
> descriptions of features in question.
> --
> Best regards
> Mirosław Zalewski
>
> --
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 deleted


  
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[John Clegg]

One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves
differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a
copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only
whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to
get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy
before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an
irritant.

On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski  wrote:

> On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52  wrote:
>
> > I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features
> > in IMPRESS badly
>
> Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly?
> I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say
> "LO is
> missing some features", but such statements tend to not be supported by
> descriptions of features in question.
> --
> Best regards
> Mirosław Zalewski
>
> --
> For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> deleted
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Mirosław Zalewski]

On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52  wrote:

> I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features 
> in IMPRESS badly

Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly?
I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say "LO is 
missing some features", but such statements tend to not be supported by 
descriptions of features in question.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[rost52]

On 2012-10-03 11:41, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote:
I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we need to focus on the "90% 
of average users".  Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS 
Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily.  If LO 
could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.


Absolutely agree. Most of the "functionality" that MS has added to Office 2007/2010 has been 
geared towards the corporate collaborative user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to 
say my last corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in 
this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the SOHO sector.
I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at "cloud" and "collaborative" usage - although it's 
highly probable that I shan't ever find out!
One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and "sends as" MS Office 
97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to 
find out what's happening there because that shouldn't happen.
IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a particularly good iteration 
of MS Office! I think the aim should be to match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current 
standard by which Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife works 
for are still on 2003..)

Both comments (Tim, Gorden) are valuable.
I switched to LO about 6 months ago and like it also I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features 
in IMPRESS badly  I am not the expert to really compare LO features with MSO 97 and 2003. Which 
version ever is used to be the comparison standard is not that important to me. But what is IMHO 
important is that all MSO97 features in and all bugs out. But don't take out features which are 
beyond MSO97 only get the bugs out. LO must become a very solid bug free production tool.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[John Clegg]

I have had a number of occasions recently to do
multi-person collaboration usually live during a conference call, and I
have to say that if you want to do that Google Docs is the tool of choice
and MSO doesn't come up to the mark.

On 3 October 2012 21:24, Jay Lozier  wrote:

> On 10/03/2012 02:23 PM, Doug wrote:
> > On 10/03/2012 01:20 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:
> >
> > /snip/
> >> One commenter noted that most SOHO users do not need the
> >> collaboration features in MSO (or any office suite). Also, I am not
> >> sure that many of the collaboration features are used extensively in
> >> large organizations.sides.
> > I guess I don't understand something here. Almost 20 years ago, I
> > wrote user manuals for equipment I designed, and had the software
> > engineer modify them as required for the user programming
> > requirements. (This was for burglar-alarm systems.)  there was no problem
> > using the MS software that existed then--it would mark modifications
> > with red underlines or something similar.  I'd just send the copy over
> > the network to my software person, and she would do whatever was
> > necessary, and send the copy back for me to check it and release it.
> > No special "collaboration" software, but we certainly collaborated.
> > What's the big deal?
> >
> > --doug (Retired RF Engineer)
> >
>
> Doug,
>
> MSO has some tools designed for real-time collaborative document
> production that allow distributed groups to work on the same document
> and track each person's edits, etc. I have not used these features;
> primarily because I never needed to use them. Thus I do not know how
> well they work. The implicit assumption is that all users can have
> simultaneous access to the same document version.
>
> Some the editing features such as track all changes are sometimes useful
> for a large document. What you are describing is not what MS is trying
> to push. Often what is needed for collaboration is what you are
> describing: create, edit, revise, (edit, revise), release.
>
> --
> Jay Lozier
> jsloz...@gmail.com
>
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/03/2012 02:23 PM, Doug wrote:
> On 10/03/2012 01:20 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:
>
> /snip/
>> One commenter noted that most SOHO users do not need the
>> collaboration features in MSO (or any office suite). Also, I am not
>> sure that many of the collaboration features are used extensively in
>> large organizations.sides.
> I guess I don't understand something here. Almost 20 years ago, I
> wrote user manuals for equipment I designed, and had the software
> engineer modify them as required for the user programming
> requirements. (This was for burglar-alarm systems.)  there was no problem
> using the MS software that existed then--it would mark modifications
> with red underlines or something similar.  I'd just send the copy over
> the network to my software person, and she would do whatever was
> necessary, and send the copy back for me to check it and release it.
> No special "collaboration" software, but we certainly collaborated.
> What's the big deal?
>
> --doug (Retired RF Engineer)
>

Doug,

MSO has some tools designed for real-time collaborative document
production that allow distributed groups to work on the same document
and track each person's edits, etc. I have not used these features;
primarily because I never needed to use them. Thus I do not know how
well they work. The implicit assumption is that all users can have
simultaneous access to the same document version.

Some the editing features such as track all changes are sometimes useful
for a large document. What you are describing is not what MS is trying
to push. Often what is needed for collaboration is what you are
describing: create, edit, revise, (edit, revise), release.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Girvin R. Herr]

Jay Lozier wrote:

On 10/02/2012 07:19 PM, Girvin R. Herr wrote:
  





Girvin,

Most people I have talked to about databases find them less intuitive
than other typical office and general software.


  

Jay,
Yes, I can agree to that.  Working with databases is not plug-n-play.  
It doesn't help when there are strangenesses in SQL that I don't 
understand the reason why they are there.  For example, a while back I 
ran into a Join problem with at least MySQL joins that if any joined 
field of a record is null, the join will fail and that record, even 
though the other fields are valid, will not be in the result set.  No 
warnings or errors are given - it is just missing.  That causes missing 
data, which IMHO is a bad thing.  As I said, I am not an SQL expert and 
maybe there is a way around that action, but I could not find a way by 
trial and error.  I had to go back into all of my records and make sure 
I had a default value in all the fields that were part of any join. 

It is my understanding that an expanded version of the Base manual is 
coming out soon.  That will be a help too.  With the exception of the 
Report Builder, Base works quite well as far as I use it, but the 
documentation is sparse and there is a lot of trial and error involved 
to get what I want.  I am looking forward to the new version.


Of course, it is not within the scope of a Base manual to teach SQL, but 
since Base relies heavily on SQL and some Base functions require some 
SQL writing, some simple examples of how to use those Base features 
would be appreciated by all users.  There are some examples in the 
manuals already, but it could use some expansion.  Otherwise, the Base 
user base will continue to be minimal.  Users need help to understand 
the concepts and make Base usable for them and their projects.  
Otherwise, they will continue to use Calc.  I am sure the frustration 
level can be high for newbies and many would give up on Base, even 
though it would be the correct tool for them to use.  I might have done 
so too, if it were not that I have a lot invested in my databases and I 
am now "locked in" to maintaining them.


Another good idea might be to add to the manual a "Further Reference" 
list of recommended books to read for more information.  I would start a 
MySQL list with the "MySQL Reference Manual", which comes with most 
MySQL packages and is on the MySQL website and is available in paper 
from O'Reilly Community Press.  That should be mandatory reading for all 
new MySQL users.  Also, I have found the "Teach Yourself SQL in 24 
Hours" book by Ryan Stephens and Ron Plew of value.  (I have no 
affiliation with either of these authors or publishers.)

Girvin

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Steve Edmonds]

On 2012-10-03 22:41, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote:
I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we 
need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO 
should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 
(15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as 
easily.  If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.


Absolutely agree. Most of the "functionality" that MS has added to 
Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative 
user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last 
corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well 
have changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and 
certainly has never been in the SOHO sector.
I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at "cloud" and 
"collaborative" usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't 
ever find out!
One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO 
and "sends as" MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears 
that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's 
happening there because that shouldn't happen.
IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a 
particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to 
match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by 
which Office suites are measured. (The very large international 
company my Wife works for are still on 2003..)
Yes, I need to look deeper at LO and "sends as" or "Save as" MS Office 
97-2003 documents as my kids are complaining their LO docs from home 
("sends as" or "Save as" MS Office 97-2003) are not opening properly in 
MO2010 at school. May be MO are doing this to force users to docx and 
break compatibility with LO.

steve


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Mirosław Zalewski]

On 03/10/2012 at 20:23, Doug  wrote:

> I guess I don't understand something here. Almost 20 years ago, I wrote 
> user manuals for equipment I designed, and had the software
> engineer modify them as required for the user programming requirements. 
> (This was for burglar-alarm systems.)  there was no problem
> using the MS software that existed then--it would mark modifications 
> with red underlines or something similar.  I'd just send the copy over
> the network to my software person, and she would do whatever was 
> necessary, and send the copy back for me to check it and release it.
> No special "collaboration" software, but we certainly collaborated. 
> What's the big deal?

Have you ever tried to do the same with larger group of recipients, say 6 
people?

I tried. Some time ago we were writing rather large research report. Each 
member of team (5 or 6 people) wrote his part, then we pasted it all together 
and did proofreading. Each member received a copy, marked his changes and sent 
it back to me. Merging these changes together on ≈170 pages document was the 
most painful experience I have ever had with any office suite. 

In such scenarios - and they are not uncommon in larger businesses - anything 
that eases collaboration of >2 people is a bless.

I think that Microsoft Office has real advantage here. Team members are just 
using Word, without need of gaining any new skills/knowledge. But if it was up 
to me, I would teach team members to use private wiki or LaTeX + git. I trust 
these tools more than I trust Microsoft or Google.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Doug]

On 10/03/2012 01:20 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:

/snip/
One commenter noted that most SOHO users do not need the collaboration 
features in MSO (or any office suite). Also, I am not sure that many 
of the collaboration features are used extensively in large 
organizations.sides.
I guess I don't understand something here. Almost 20 years ago, I wrote 
user manuals for equipment I designed, and had the software
engineer modify them as required for the user programming requirements. 
(This was for burglar-alarm systems.)  there was no problem
using the MS software that existed then--it would mark modifications 
with red underlines or something similar.  I'd just send the copy over
the network to my software person, and she would do whatever was 
necessary, and send the copy back for me to check it and release it.
No special "collaboration" software, but we certainly collaborated. 
What's the big deal?


--doug (Retired RF Engineer)

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Renting MS Office (next release), was: Fw: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I suspect a good place to start might be somewhere like
http://www.microsoft.com
but it might still only be written for a certain web-browser and might render 
badly on yours (or even block you).  I think they sorted it out now but for 
ages it just wouldn't work.
Regards from
Tom :)  






- Forwarded Message -
>From: Chad Homan 
>To: Gordon Burgess-Parker  
>Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2012, 16:28
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
>renting their office products instead
> 
>I should be following this tread more closely.  But does anyone have links
>to any M$ sites
>that spell out the details of the "rentals"?  Also, what happens to people
>using older versions
>of office (like officeXP, etc).  Will they roll forward into this pricing
>model?  When does this
>take affect?
>
>Join The RVLution <http://www.monavie.com/rvlution>- Together We Win!
>--
>Chad - I AM MONAVIE
>Creating A More Meaningful Life
>
>
>On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker 
>wrote:
>
>> On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we
>>> need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO should
>>> be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old
>>> software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily.  If LO could
>>> do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.
>>>
>>>  Absolutely agree. Most of the "functionality" that MS has added to
>> Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative user,
>> which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last corporate job
>> was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in this
>> respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the
>> SOHO sector.
>> I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at "cloud" and
>> "collaborative" usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever
>> find out!
>> One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and
>> "sends as" MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her
>> recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's happening there
>> because that shouldn't happen.
>> IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a
>> particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to
>> match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which
>> Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife
>> works for are still on 2003..)
>>
>> --
>>
>> Registered Linux User no 240308
>> GBP's alternative 
>> computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.**blogspot.com/<http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/>
>>  Say No to OOXMLhttp://
>> www.linuxjournal.**com/article/9594#mpart8<http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8>
>> I only accept odf or pdf documents by email
>>
>>
>> --
>> For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.**
>> org 
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Formats, was: Fw: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Yeh, people are weird sometimes.  I'm sure some people would have peaceful 
pro-war protests or fight for peace given half a chance.  


One client group claimed they didn't know how to use "Save As ..." so i sent 
them screen-shots and then the month after i even visited them to show them by 
hand.  Since then they stopped using our services so their events don't get so 
widely publicised.  I'm not sure it's had a huge effect on them (or us) tbh.  


Regards from 

Tom :)  





- Forwarded Message -
>From: webmaster-Kracked_P_P 
>
>
>
>I still have troubles with .docx documents sent to me from one professional in 
>the transportation industry, but she is the only person that will not send out 
>files as .doc instead of .docx - even though I tell her that people/agencies 
>with MSO-2007 will have trouble with her .docx files.  She sent out a Press 
>Release that had formatting errors in it, if you viewed it with MSO-2007 or 
>LO.  She should have sent that one out as a PDF file.
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/03/2012 11:28 AM, Chad Homan wrote:
> I should be following this tread more closely.  But does anyone have links
> to any M$ sites
> that spell out the details of the "rentals"?  Also, what happens to people
> using older versions
> of office (like officeXP, etc).  Will they roll forward into this pricing
> model?  When does this
> take affect?
>
> Join The RVLution - Together We Win!
> --
> Chad - I AM MONAVIE
> Creating A More Meaningful Life
Chad

Older versions, as I understand, are not affected only the next version
and forward are included. If you want the latest features in MSO you
will be paying rent but if the older versions still meet your needs then
the only reason to consider an upgrade or new office suite is that it is
no longer supported.

One commenter noted that most SOHO users do not need the collaboration
features in MSO (or any office suite). Also, I am not sure that many of
the collaboration features are used extensively in large organizations.
Its not that the features are bad but how important are they to many, if
not most users.

The issue for many commercial software vendors is how to get people to
buy a new version (or pay for services) when the old version is more
than adequate. MS' business model dates from the 1980's but when one can
find a FOSS equivalent or an older version that will meet most user
needs they have a problem with how to keep customers buying a new
release. Many, like MS, are turning to a rental (SaaS) model to keep
income levels. This will probably work in the near term but long term I
am dubious, there are many commercial and technical issues with the
model; at least two dissertations.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[webmaster-Kracked_P_P]

On 10/03/2012 05:41 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote:
I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we 
need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO 
should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 
(15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as 
easily.  If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.


Absolutely agree. Most of the "functionality" that MS has added to 
Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative 
user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last 
corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well 
have changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and 
certainly has never been in the SOHO sector.
I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at "cloud" and 
"collaborative" usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't 
ever find out!
One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO 
and "sends as" MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears 
that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's 
happening there because that shouldn't happen.
IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a 
particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to 
match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by 
which Office suites are measured. (The very large international 
company my Wife works for are still on 2003..)
What I hate is that LO will need a new filter for .docx files since 
MSO-2013 will have a format not usable to 2007 or 2010 versions.


I still have troubles with .docx documents sent to me from one 
professional in the transportation industry, but she is the only person 
that will not send out files as .doc instead of .docx - even though I 
tell her that people/agencies with MSO-2007 will have trouble with her 
.docx files.  She sent out a Press Release that had formatting errors in 
it, if you viewed it with MSO-2007 or LO.  She should have sent that one 
out as a PDF file.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Chad Homan]

I should be following this tread more closely.  But does anyone have links
to any M$ sites
that spell out the details of the "rentals"?  Also, what happens to people
using older versions
of office (like officeXP, etc).  Will they roll forward into this pricing
model?  When does this
take affect?

Join The RVLution - Together We Win!
--
Chad - I AM MONAVIE
Creating A More Meaningful Life


On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

> On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote:
>
>> I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we
>> need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO should
>> be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old
>> software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily.  If LO could
>> do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.
>>
>>  Absolutely agree. Most of the "functionality" that MS has added to
> Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative user,
> which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last corporate job
> was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in this
> respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the
> SOHO sector.
> I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at "cloud" and
> "collaborative" usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever
> find out!
> One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and
> "sends as" MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her
> recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's happening there
> because that shouldn't happen.
> IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a
> particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to
> match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which
> Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife
> works for are still on 2003..)
>
> --
>
> Registered Linux User no 240308
> GBP's alternative 
> computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.**blogspot.com/
>  Say No to OOXMLhttp://
> www.linuxjournal.**com/article/9594#mpart8
> I only accept odf or pdf documents by email
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.**
> org 
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-**
> unsubscribe/
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> http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/users/
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>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote:
I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we 
need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO 
should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 
(15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as 
easily.  If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.


Absolutely agree. Most of the "functionality" that MS has added to 
Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative 
user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last 
corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have 
changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has 
never been in the SOHO sector.
I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at "cloud" and 
"collaborative" usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever 
find out!
One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO 
and "sends as" MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears 
that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's 
happening there because that shouldn't happen.
IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a 
particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to 
match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which 
Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my 
Wife works for are still on 2003..)

--

Registered Linux User no 240308
GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/  
Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8

I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Andreas Säger]

Am 03.10.2012 09:23, HBarr wrote:
>>
> Hi, I am a database user and emphasis on the word *user*. I like
> learning new stuff too and Base is a challenge. I want LObase to work so
> I will contribute feedback whenever I can but no more than that because
> I haven't learnt to code or programme...yet. I have a couple of
> questions but I will start a new thread for them.
> 
> Howard
> 

I am not a database user. I am a database developer. The users of my
databases have no problem with Base since all they see is standard form
controls.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[HBarr]

On 03/10/2012 11:58, Jay Lozier wrote:

On 10/02/2012 07:19 PM, Girvin R. Herr wrote:


Jay Lozier wrote:


>From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However,
my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting
and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the
fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a
spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database.



   

Jay,
I use Base as a MySQL client to access my databases, which are mostly
inventories.  I started with MS Access years ago and switched to MySQL
c. 2004, when a MySQL Open Source client (Rekall) finally appeared for
Linux.  But Rekall stopped being supported a few years later and the
version I had still had a few bugs that should have been worked on.
When Base started being a general database server client (interfaced
to MySQL, etc.) rather than that proprietary database thing that
StarOffice used (and may still do so), I looked into switching from
Rekall to Base.  Doing so was not a trivial task, since all the work I
had done on data entry forms and reports in Rekall had to be discarded
and that work redone for Base.  After recreating all my data entry
forms and reports, I got Base to work reasonably well within my
requirements.  However, the latest version (1.2.1) of Oracle Report
Builder (ORB) is a basket case.  When it doesn't crash LO, it is dog
slow at creating my reports.  Too slow to be used.  I have just this
week, downloaded an Open Source report generator program called
DataVision  http://datavision.sourceforge.net/ and got it to work on
my Slackware Linux system with MySQL.  This version, 1.2.0, is rough,
many features are not working yet and it does not seem to be supported
any more either, since this latest version is dated 2008.  However,
unlike ORB, it does do what I want a report generator to do - without
crashing and at a reasonably fast speed.  Since it is an Open Source
JAVA program using an Apache license, if any of the Base devs are
listening, I suggest they look into taking over DataVision as an
addition to Base.  Base without a report generator is like a computer
program that accepts inputs but does not output anything - useless.
Akin to Writer or Calc not printing!

Was all my database work, including learning a bit of SQL "daunting"?
Yes, I suppose it was, but it was and is a learning experience and I
don't mind learning something new.  I am not in the least a SQL
master, but I do understand it enough to get by.  If not, I hit the
books again.  There are those who can't or won't learn anything new.
For them, there is the Calc tool, which fits their hands better, but
maybe isn't quite the best tool for the job.
Girvin Herr


Girvin,

Most people I have talked to about databases find them less intuitive
than other typical office and general software.


Hi, I am a database user and emphasis on the word *user*. I like 
learning new stuff too and Base is a challenge. I want LObase to work so 
I will contribute feedback whenever I can but no more than that because 
I haven't learnt to code or programme...yet. I have a couple of 
questions but I will start a new thread for them.


Howard

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/02/2012 07:19 PM, Girvin R. Herr wrote:
>
>
> Jay Lozier wrote:
> 
>> >From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However,
>> my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting
>> and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the
>> fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a
>> spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database.
>>
>> 
>>
>>   
> Jay,
> I use Base as a MySQL client to access my databases, which are mostly
> inventories.  I started with MS Access years ago and switched to MySQL
> c. 2004, when a MySQL Open Source client (Rekall) finally appeared for
> Linux.  But Rekall stopped being supported a few years later and the
> version I had still had a few bugs that should have been worked on. 
> When Base started being a general database server client (interfaced
> to MySQL, etc.) rather than that proprietary database thing that
> StarOffice used (and may still do so), I looked into switching from
> Rekall to Base.  Doing so was not a trivial task, since all the work I
> had done on data entry forms and reports in Rekall had to be discarded
> and that work redone for Base.  After recreating all my data entry
> forms and reports, I got Base to work reasonably well within my
> requirements.  However, the latest version (1.2.1) of Oracle Report
> Builder (ORB) is a basket case.  When it doesn't crash LO, it is dog
> slow at creating my reports.  Too slow to be used.  I have just this
> week, downloaded an Open Source report generator program called
> DataVision  http://datavision.sourceforge.net/ and got it to work on
> my Slackware Linux system with MySQL.  This version, 1.2.0, is rough,
> many features are not working yet and it does not seem to be supported
> any more either, since this latest version is dated 2008.  However,
> unlike ORB, it does do what I want a report generator to do - without
> crashing and at a reasonably fast speed.  Since it is an Open Source
> JAVA program using an Apache license, if any of the Base devs are
> listening, I suggest they look into taking over DataVision as an
> addition to Base.  Base without a report generator is like a computer
> program that accepts inputs but does not output anything - useless. 
> Akin to Writer or Calc not printing!
>
> Was all my database work, including learning a bit of SQL "daunting"? 
> Yes, I suppose it was, but it was and is a learning experience and I
> don't mind learning something new.  I am not in the least a SQL
> master, but I do understand it enough to get by.  If not, I hit the
> books again.  There are those who can't or won't learn anything new. 
> For them, there is the Calc tool, which fits their hands better, but
> maybe isn't quite the best tool for the job.
> Girvin Herr
>
Girvin,

Most people I have talked to about databases find them less intuitive
than other typical office and general software.


-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Girvin R. Herr]

Jay Lozier wrote:


>From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However,
my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting
and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the
fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a
spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database.



  

Jay,
I use Base as a MySQL client to access my databases, which are mostly 
inventories.  I started with MS Access years ago and switched to MySQL 
c. 2004, when a MySQL Open Source client (Rekall) finally appeared for 
Linux.  But Rekall stopped being supported a few years later and the 
version I had still had a few bugs that should have been worked on.  
When Base started being a general database server client (interfaced to 
MySQL, etc.) rather than that proprietary database thing that StarOffice 
used (and may still do so), I looked into switching from Rekall to 
Base.  Doing so was not a trivial task, since all the work I had done on 
data entry forms and reports in Rekall had to be discarded and that work 
redone for Base.  After recreating all my data entry forms and reports, 
I got Base to work reasonably well within my requirements.  However, the 
latest version (1.2.1) of Oracle Report Builder (ORB) is a basket case.  
When it doesn't crash LO, it is dog slow at creating my reports.  Too 
slow to be used.  I have just this week, downloaded an Open Source 
report generator program called DataVision  
http://datavision.sourceforge.net/ and got it to work on my Slackware 
Linux system with MySQL.  This version, 1.2.0, is rough, many features 
are not working yet and it does not seem to be supported any more 
either, since this latest version is dated 2008.  However, unlike ORB, 
it does do what I want a report generator to do - without crashing and 
at a reasonably fast speed.  Since it is an Open Source JAVA program 
using an Apache license, if any of the Base devs are listening, I 
suggest they look into taking over DataVision as an addition to Base.  
Base without a report generator is like a computer program that accepts 
inputs but does not output anything - useless.  Akin to Writer or Calc 
not printing!


Was all my database work, including learning a bit of SQL "daunting"?  
Yes, I suppose it was, but it was and is a learning experience and I 
don't mind learning something new.  I am not in the least a SQL master, 
but I do understand it enough to get by.  If not, I hit the books 
again.  There are those who can't or won't learn anything new.  For 
them, there is the Calc tool, which fits their hands better, but maybe 
isn't quite the best tool for the job.

Girvin Herr

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[webmaster-Kracked_P_P]

The only other addition to MSO-97 would be the 2007/2010/2013 versions 
of their "x" formats and any other file formats that might be used now 
by MSO or other software.


On 10/02/2012 03:55 PM, Jay Lozier wrote:

On 10/02/2012 02:38 PM, Tim Deaton wrote:

I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we
need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO
should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97
(15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as
easily.  If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.

-- Tim Deaton
===

+1 on focus. We often forget that average user only uses part of the
features available MSO of LO. The problem is that how of the features
are used by the average user. Is it 50%, or 80% or some other fraction
but with each user typical using about 20 - 30 % of the features.

This may be wrong list. Does anyone know which features are extensively
used and which ones users want? And then compare the two with features
of various MSO versions.

My suspicion is that most people do not use new features found in MSO
2007 and later. I am not sure about 97, 2000, or XP. Personally, I doubt
I use any feature found in a version later than XP and possibly even
earlier. In fact the only feature that would be absolute show stopper
for me is handling MSO/MSOX formats. I have to open and files to others
using MSO(X) formats regularly and LO has been excellent at handling
them for me.

>From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However,
my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting
and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the
fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a
spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database.






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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/02/2012 02:38 PM, Tim Deaton wrote:
> I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we
> need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO
> should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97
> (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as
> easily.  If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.
>
> -- Tim Deaton
> ===
+1 on focus. We often forget that average user only uses part of the
features available MSO of LO. The problem is that how of the features
are used by the average user. Is it 50%, or 80% or some other fraction
but with each user typical using about 20 - 30 % of the features.

This may be wrong list. Does anyone know which features are extensively
used and which ones users want? And then compare the two with features
of various MSO versions.

My suspicion is that most people do not use new features found in MSO
2007 and later. I am not sure about 97, 2000, or XP. Personally, I doubt
I use any feature found in a version later than XP and possibly even
earlier. In fact the only feature that would be absolute show stopper
for me is handling MSO/MSOX formats. I have to open and files to others
using MSO(X) formats regularly and LO has been excellent at handling
them for me.

>From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However,
my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting
and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the
fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a
spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database.



-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tim Deaton]

I don't think we need to remove existing features.  But I DO think we 
need to focus on the "90% of average users".  Basically, I think LO 
should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 
(15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as 
easily.  If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch.


-- Tim Deaton
===

On 10/2/2012 2:45 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:

Il 24/09/2012 17:15, Mirosław Zalewski ha scritto:
On 24/09/2012 at 16:48, "webmaster-Kracked_P_P" 


wrote:


  We need to keep it with the
needed options for the 90% "average" users and not for those that 
are in

the last 10% or even those in the last 1% or less users that do so
complex work that the "average" user could not figure out why this is
being done or even how to do such a thing even with the needed
documentation.


I totally disagree.

If user is unable to do something he wants with open documentation, 
then this

is documentation fault. It should be fixed (made clear, verbose, use
screenshots or anything), not feature should be disabled.

There are many ways to speed up opening of programs. Some features 
may be
delayed or loaded on request. Application can be modularized - core 
features
are loaded by default, other are loaded only if user wants them (take 
a look
at LaTeX, GNU R, Miranda (instant messenger), even Mozilla Firefox to 
some

avail).

*Removing* features is total no-go, because it will drive away these 
users who

need them. And I don't think that LO is application only for 90% of it's
current users.



As much as I hate "me too!" e-mails...

+1

;P




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 02/10/2012 13:51, Tom Davies ha scritto:

Hi :) I think that renting could result in better software because it
eliminates the excuse that major bugs are only fixed in the newer
release.  At the moment MS can claim that it's the users fault if
they suffer a bug because they should buy the new release.  While
they probably still will do that it will be easier for users to just
stop paying for the current release.  At the moment people have to
keep using the current/old one in order to make the initial expense
worth it.


You miss the main point: you stop paying, you lose the ability to read, 
write and modify your documents. I don't see how user will have a chance 
to stop paying.

But maybe I'm just missing some important detail.



Effectively the rental model levels the playing field between
OpenSource and MS's proprietary stuff.  Well, it levels it a little
bit at least.  It takes away some of the advantage that OpenSource
currently enjoys.  How quickly that all plays out is a different
issue.  MS probably haven't thought about it just yet.  OTH that may
be exactly part of their 'sinister plan' (It's not really sinister,
they just need to make a profit) Regards from Tom :)



As far as I understood MS rental model until now, I think FOSS will 
increase its advantage. On the proprietary side, users will have 
something they'll _have_ to pay, not ste^H^H download at will (and I'm 
not thinking only about joe home user), while OOo will be free and 
available forever, in whatever current or previous version the user 
prefers (security patches aside).









 From: Marcello Romani
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent:
Tuesday, 2 October 2012, 7:32 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re:
MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office
products instead

Il 18/09/2012 21:38, Jay Lozier ha scritto: [...]


The rental model, in theory, guarantees a stabler cash flow
whether the software rental is good for users is another matter.



I totally agree.

At $WORK we had a 3D CAD package that would not work anymore if the
licence was not renewed periodically. We eventually switched to a
3D package that had a heftier tag price, but didn't force us to pay
every year just to use it. When the licence for the first package
expired, we lost access to all of our previous work. We had to
convert everything in a hurry.

It's OK to pay for software "maintenance" (i.e. updates, priority
support, etc.), but I find it totally unacceptable to have a
software package just stop working if you don't pay the "rent". If
I was writing in italian I'd call it "pizzo" - which is a mafia
thing - "Stop paying and you'll lose access to your beloved
documents!". How does it sound ?

-- Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think that renting could result in better software because it eliminates the 
excuse that major bugs are only fixed in the newer release.  At the moment MS 
can claim that it's the users fault if they suffer a bug because they should 
buy the new release.  While they probably still will do that it will be easier 
for users to just stop paying for the current release.  At the moment people 
have to keep using the current/old one in order to make the initial expense 
worth it.  

Effectively the rental model levels the playing field between OpenSource and 
MS's proprietary stuff.  Well, it levels it a little bit at least.  It takes 
away some of the advantage that OpenSource currently enjoys.  How quickly that 
all plays out is a different issue.  MS probably haven't thought about it just 
yet.  OTH that may be exactly part of their 'sinister plan' (It's not really 
sinister, they just need to make a profit)  
Regards from
Tom :)  






>
> From: Marcello Romani 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2012, 7:32
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
>renting their office products instead
> 
>Il 18/09/2012 21:38, Jay Lozier ha scritto:
>[...]
>
>> The rental model, in theory,
>> guarantees a stabler cash flow whether the software rental is good for
>> users is another matter.
>> 
>
>I totally agree.
>
>At $WORK we had a 3D CAD package that would not work anymore if the licence 
>was not renewed periodically.
>We eventually switched to a 3D package that had a heftier tag price, but 
>didn't force us to pay every year just to use it.
>When the licence for the first package expired, we lost access to all of our 
>previous work. We had to convert everything in a hurry.
>
>It's OK to pay for software "maintenance" (i.e. updates, priority support, 
>etc.), but I find it totally unacceptable to have a software package just stop 
>working if you don't pay the "rent". If I was writing in italian I'd call it 
>"pizzo" - which is a mafia thing - "Stop paying and you'll lose access to your 
>beloved documents!".
>How does it sound ?
>
>-- Marcello Romani
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 18/09/2012 21:38, Jay Lozier ha scritto:
[...]

> The rental model, in theory,

guarantees a stabler cash flow whether the software rental is good for
users is another matter.



I totally agree.

At $WORK we had a 3D CAD package that would not work anymore if the 
licence was not renewed periodically.
We eventually switched to a 3D package that had a heftier tag price, but 
didn't force us to pay every year just to use it.
When the licence for the first package expired, we lost access to all of 
our previous work. We had to convert everything in a hurry.


It's OK to pay for software "maintenance" (i.e. updates, priority 
support, etc.), but I find it totally unacceptable to have a software 
package just stop working if you don't pay the "rent". If I was writing 
in italian I'd call it "pizzo" - which is a mafia thing - "Stop paying 
and you'll lose access to your beloved documents!".

How does it sound ?

--
Marcello Romani

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Marcello Romani]

Il 24/09/2012 17:15, Mirosław Zalewski ha scritto:

On 24/09/2012 at 16:48, "webmaster-Kracked_P_P" 
wrote:


  We need to keep it with the
needed options for the 90% "average" users and not for those that are in
the last 10% or even those in the last 1% or less users that do so
complex work that the "average" user could not figure out why this is
being done or even how to do such a thing even with the needed
documentation.


I totally disagree.

If user is unable to do something he wants with open documentation, then this
is documentation fault. It should be fixed (made clear, verbose, use
screenshots or anything), not feature should be disabled.

There are many ways to speed up opening of programs. Some features may be
delayed or loaded on request. Application can be modularized - core features
are loaded by default, other are loaded only if user wants them (take a look
at LaTeX, GNU R, Miranda (instant messenger), even Mozilla Firefox to some
avail).

*Removing* features is total no-go, because it will drive away these users who
need them. And I don't think that LO is application only for 90% of it's
current users.



As much as I hate "me too!" e-mails...

+1

;P

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[rost52]

May I suggest to discuss the Google calender issue in a different thread?

On 2012-09-30 19:17, Steve Edmonds wrote:


On 2012-10-01 05:12, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 30/09/12 17:08, James Knott wrote:
There's an exclamation mark in a yellow triangle on my "Google" calendar. When I move the mouse 
pointer over the calendar, I get a pop up "The calendar Google is momentarily not available".



That's exactly was happening to me with the Google Calendar add-in!

I have Opensuse 12.2, Thunderbird 15.0, Lightning 1.7, Provider 0.16 and my Google calendars are 
working fine.

Steve





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Steve Edmonds]

On 2012-10-01 05:12, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 30/09/12 17:08, James Knott wrote:
There's an exclamation mark in a yellow triangle on my "Google" 
calendar. When I move the mouse pointer over the calendar, I get a 
pop up "The calendar Google is momentarily not available".



That's exactly was happening to me with the Google Calendar add-in!

I have Opensuse 12.2, Thunderbird 15.0, Lightning 1.7, Provider 0.16 and 
my Google calendars are working fine.

Steve


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 30/09/12 17:08, James Knott wrote:
There's an exclamation mark in a yellow triangle on my "Google" 
calendar. When I move the mouse pointer over the calendar, I get a pop 
up "The calendar Google is momentarily not available".



That's exactly was happening to me with the Google Calendar add-in!

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[James Knott]

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 30/09/12 16:55, James Knott wrote:
I just tried those directions with Thunderbird & Lightning, without 
the provider.  The calendar won't sync.


Been using the CalDav method for about six months now, ever since I 
started getting problems with the Google Calendar add-in.
Works perfectly OK her for me. (Tbird 15.01, lightning 1.7 on Ubuntu 
12.04)





I'm using Thunderbird 15 & Lighting 1.7 on openSUSE 12.1. There's an 
exclamation mark in a yellow triangle on my "Google" calendar.  When I 
move the mouse pointer over the calendar, I get a pop up "The calendar 
Google is momentarily not available".


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 30/09/12 16:55, James Knott wrote:
I just tried those directions with Thunderbird & Lightning, without 
the provider.  The calendar won't sync.


Been using the CalDav method for about six months now, ever since I 
started getting problems with the Google Calendar add-in.
Works perfectly OK her for me. (Tbird 15.01, lightning 1.7 on Ubuntu 
12.04)



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I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[James Knott]

Tanstaafl wrote:

On 2012-09-27 3:08 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to
help with the syncing to a Google account.


Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which
doesn't require any extension at all.
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird 



I don't see anything about Lightning/Thunderbird support...

If it actually does work in Thunderbird+Lightning, do you know if it 
works properly interacting with Meeting Requests/Invitations/Updates 
from users using Outlook/Exchange? The current 
Thunderbird+Lightning+Provider for Google Calendar doesn't (works 
halfway, but Updates are totally broken)...




I just tried those directions with Thunderbird & Lightning, without the 
provider.  The calendar won't sync.  I have been using both Seamonkey 
and Thunderbird with Lighting and Provider for Google Calendar, for 
about a year, and it works well for me.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Mirosław Zalewski]

On 29/09/2012 at 20:10, Wolfgang Keller  wrote:

> Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of
> spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc...
> 
> Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every
> line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the
> way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole
> document and that's it.

That's where styles, templates, master slides etc. comes in. Haven't you heard 
of them? They give you ability to define paragraphs by their meaning in 
document structure and change parameters once for the whole document.

As far as I know, you can apply direct formatting in LaTeX as well. But this 
is possible, not necessary. Even if LO encourages users to use direct 
formatting (by exposing icons on toolbar), it is still totally optional.

Or did I miss the part where you pointed out advantages of LaTeX approach to 
document structure in comparison to LO?
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> As an engineer, now retired, I used BASIC for many years, then took
> a class in Pascal and wrote some code in Pascal.  You are correct--
> all I wanted, in almost all cases, was command-line input and screen
> or print (or both) output.  I first wrote BASIC on a teletype machine
> connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe somewhere in Texas.

Obviously at that time, Python wasn't available yet. ;-) X-(

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> > - actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g.
> > LaTeX Beamer provides.
> 
> Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but
> never really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to
> offer that LO is not capable of.

Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of
spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc...

Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every
line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the
way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole
document and that's it.

> As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every
> feature of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current
> WYSIWYG). I strongly believe that target group of LibreOffice is
> different than target group of LaTeX. LaTeX is already free, vital
> community exists, there are dedicated editors - users who prefer
> LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX.

I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other examples
are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should not keep the
MS Office-style "spaghetti" content models that were already outdated in
the 80s and pile up features on top, but instead LO should focus on
providing a functional concept that allows users to work with documents
in a more structured and thus more efficient way. MS Office is by far
the worst "example" in the market. And, as such, the example *not* to
follow.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 09/28/2012 03:46 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> On 18/09/2012 at 20:13, Doug  wrote:
>>
>>>  Note, too, that the old argument, "I bought it, 
>>> so it's mine," will be out the window--if it's rented, it clearly
>>> is not yours to copy, etc.
>> As far as I remember, it was never yours. Most EULAs forbid e.g.
>> reselling of box copy. They clearly state that they grant you right
>> to use software, nothing more.
> Depends on legislation & jurisdiction in the relevant country.
>
> Over here where I currently subsist, Microsofts' "EULA" is afaik
> essentially illegal and irrelevant. Especially concerning the "reselling
> interdiction". This has been ruled out in court something like two
> decades ago or so.
>
> The most irrelevant part of Microsoft's EULA is the one that states
> that if any clause of the EULA is invalidated in court, all other
> clauses shall still apply. Because it's afaik a very basic principle of
> jurisdiction over here that if the judge considers any clause of an EULA
> (or any other contract) as deliberately abusive, then the entire
> contract is invalid as a whole and the court will establish the rules to
> apply.
>
> I'm not a lawyer, however. I've just read an article written by some
> lawyer about the subject a long time ago.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wolfgang
>
The severability clause in a contract is enforceable in some
jurisdictions under contract law. In the US some states have consumer
protection laws that may invalidate part of a standard contract for the
state residents. If the standard EULA has clause voided by state law
those clauses are replaced by the applicable law and the rest of the
EULA is left in force. Usually the US contracts have some wording about
state laws superseding the contract if the laws are favorable to the
consumer. This is done to avoid 50 slightly different warranties/EULA's.

-- 
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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> What language one first learns is often determined by what is used in
> the "Introduction to Programming" courses and of course when you took
> the course. I know a few colleges used VB for their introductory
> course in the States.

If I was looking for a university for studying computer science, this
would already disqualify them. >;->

> I know of Canadian university that use Python.  What type of
> programming you do determines the language you tend use and find in
> your work place.

Python is for free and runs essentially on anything that deserves the
designation "operating system". Heck, it even runs on that
"market-leading" non-operating system from that corporation based in
Seattle. So you can "find" it anywhere you work.

> Whether one learned VB depends on ones situation and needs. I have
> done some VBA programming because where I worked need some automation
> of spreadsheet calculations for Excel spreadsheets.

On Windows, Python can be used to script anything that has a COM
interface. I've already used it for scripting Excel, among others.

> My intro to programming was originally in Fortran IV (aka Fortrash)
> and later Pascal.

I started with Pascal, then went on to Fortran. I deliberately forgot
all the C that I had to learn to pass an exam. Python is the only
programming/scripting language that I learned of my own choice. Simply
because it's the only language that I know of that does what I need:
Cross-platform, ad-hoc scripting as well as full-scale programming,
interfacing with anything that has any kind of interface, syntax made
for humans, loads of libraries for essentially any application...

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> On 18/09/2012 at 20:13, Doug  wrote:
> 
> >  Note, too, that the old argument, "I bought it, 
> > so it's mine," will be out the window--if it's rented, it clearly
> > is not yours to copy, etc.
> 
> As far as I remember, it was never yours. Most EULAs forbid e.g.
> reselling of box copy. They clearly state that they grant you right
> to use software, nothing more.

Depends on legislation & jurisdiction in the relevant country.

Over here where I currently subsist, Microsofts' "EULA" is afaik
essentially illegal and irrelevant. Especially concerning the "reselling
interdiction". This has been ruled out in court something like two
decades ago or so.

The most irrelevant part of Microsoft's EULA is the one that states
that if any clause of the EULA is invalidated in court, all other
clauses shall still apply. Because it's afaik a very basic principle of
jurisdiction over here that if the judge considers any clause of an EULA
(or any other contract) as deliberately abusive, then the entire
contract is invalid as a whole and the court will establish the rules to
apply.

I'm not a lawyer, however. I've just read an article written by some
lawyer about the subject a long time ago.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 09/27/2012 09:04 AM, Pertti Rönnberg wrote:
> All the best LibO folks,
> This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also
> useful -- but back to the basic question!
> Microsoft is going to change their behavior.
>
> Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be
> totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying.
> It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and
> expresses your foolishness.  LibO only have to accept it.
I think the original issue raised was the MS pricing strategy of an
annual license with perpetual updates and whether this model made sense
for many users. Updates and upgrades can be buggy. More importantly is
do users need to upgrade because they already are using a limited set of
features/capabilities. The problem MS faces is getting users to buy new
versions when the old version is perfectly adequate. Other than the msox
formats and the life-cycle expiring (no security patches), many users
would not need to upgrade at all.

This may be a marketing blunder long term because users may start
migrating away from MSO to other options such as LO, AOO, Calligra, or
Google Docs as they start looking at replacement costs.
>
> Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without
> remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly.
> That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to
> pay what ever the cost.
Part of MS' problems is that they have been historical not very security
conscious in the past. Even though they have improved some do not fully
believe some of the old mindset is gone. Also, I have never found out
how one reports bugs to MS.
>
> What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable
> share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer
> and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's
> Access included -- equal is far away from enough.
Part of the problem is what the users actually need versus what is
included. Access represents a special issue because many MSO users do
have Access because it is not included in the version they purchased.
Working with relational databases and NoSQL databases I dislike both
Access and Base. I know Base can be used as a front end for many
relational databases and I believe Access also can be a front end.
>
> Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced -
> seldom use more than a 2-5%  of the LibO's (MSO's) features.
> Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure
> that at least these work properly -- Base included.
Base is still a bit of a mess if you use the embedded backend and
wizards. If you use a different database it seems to be tolerable.
>
> If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to
> use -- and especially it's help function understandable for every new
> user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small
> group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten.
> I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy.
I understand the goal of LO (and AOO) is to provide a FOSS alternative
to MSO that fits the needs of most users.
> If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at
> least not disappear.
> Pertti Rönnberg
>
>


-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[rost52]

A comment just from a user's point of view.

I used Lo and MSO in parallel for about 6 month and changed recently over to LO 
only.

Writer and Calc is for me in general so far better then the MSO. Impress has some problems (calling 
custom shows) I found a kind of work around.


The other LO application I have not used yet.

I think if the development team keeps going in a focussed way to catch up some issues LO is already 
a good alternative to MSO. And it is available for folks with less or no money for a office suit.


I try to contribute by reporting bugs and giving answers to questions.

Porposal: Let's take the information on MS asking for rental fees and keep in working with and on LO 
to get another percent point of market shares. Keep in that event the biggest cake gets eaten in 
small pieces..



On 2012-09-28 04:43, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I agree that Base seems a bit of a mess but if you follow Andreas' guidance 
then it hopefully works better.  There are other people on this list that are 
great at helping with Base but he seems better at giving a better over-view of 
Base.  Most of the problems appear to be with wizards and stuff.  Also it's a 
very different thing than Access so trying to wrap your head around the basic 
concept is a major Pita.  I wouldn't migrate your databases from Access to Base 
just yet.  Just settle in with the rest of LO first.  Base doesn't seem to have 
so many devs working on it as the other apps but it may gain a few in a month 
or so.  The docs team are working on an excellent handbook for Base which may 
help people understand it better and once you understand the basic ideas it's 
really quite exciting (imo).  Tons of potential but needs a good pruning before 
it can really grow.

Impress is also not so great at the moment but at least it's easier to 
understand what you want from it and it kinda makes sense.  Again, seems to 
have less devs than Writer or Calc.  Draw seems to be more popular and seems to 
gain more attention for the increases in it's functionality.


Generally i would avoid the early release in any branch.  I like to try them but only on 
one of my own systems, not on any of my colleagues.  It's good to try the x.x.0 - x.x.3 
but just for your own benefit, to post bug-reports against and hopefully catch the 
interest of the most possible devs before they move on to other things (such as the next 
branch).  Each branch becomes much more stable by the x.x.4 and from then on just 
increases in stability without gaining much extra functionality.  Better stability means 
you are less likely to find something that needs to have a bug-report posted.  The x.x.6 
tends to be very solid.  Think of that 3rd number as a "Service Pack" but 
divide by 2 because MS only goes up to Sp3.


I suspect the recalculation in Calc might be a memory issue?  Perhaps try
Tools - Options - Memory
and bump a lot of those values up.  Also look in
Tools - Options - Calc
to see if something weird is in there.  There is a key that forces 
recalculation but i don't know it.


The in-built help files are not as useful as the official documentation.  You 
can get the latest and even pre-release guides from
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Some of the 3.3.x guides have been translated into a few other languages but 
not many.  To get the in-built help you have to download it and then install 
after installing the main part of LO.  For example the 2nd 'button' on
http://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=win-x86&lang=en-GB&version=3.5.6
Note that you can choose from many other languages.  That link is for English 
(Gb/Uk) but for my colleagues i have added Gujaratii, Italian, Japanese and 
more so that different logins on those machines can have different languages.


I definitely agree that LO needs to far exceed MS Office in order to even get looked at.  In 
many ways i think it is far better but i can admit that it does have apparent weaknesses that 
are more likely to be noticed than the good stuff.  It's the same for people from any 
minority group.  If you are 10 times better but they notice 1 thing they think is odd then 
they focus on the 1 thing.  However, as Gandhi said "First they ignore you.  Then they 
laugh at you.  Then they fight you.  Then you win" so don't be discouraged.  I think LO 
has pushed things from a decade of being stifled in step 1 into somewhere between 2 & 3 
and in some places (such as Brasil) step 4 already!


When migrating away from MSO it's usually better to keep using it but gradually 
use LO more but at the start only for a few things or even just one or two 
things until you get more familiar with the difference.
Regards from
Tom :)








From: Pertti Rönnberg 
To: Tom Davies 
Cc: "users@global.libreoffice.org" 
Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 18:27

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I agree that Base seems a bit of a mess but if you follow Andreas' guidance 
then it hopefully works better.  There are other people on this list that are 
great at helping with Base but he seems better at giving a better over-view of 
Base.  Most of the problems appear to be with wizards and stuff.  Also it's a 
very different thing than Access so trying to wrap your head around the basic 
concept is a major Pita.  I wouldn't migrate your databases from Access to Base 
just yet.  Just settle in with the rest of LO first.  Base doesn't seem to have 
so many devs working on it as the other apps but it may gain a few in a month 
or so.  The docs team are working on an excellent handbook for Base which may 
help people understand it better and once you understand the basic ideas it's 
really quite exciting (imo).  Tons of potential but needs a good pruning before 
it can really grow.  

Impress is also not so great at the moment but at least it's easier to 
understand what you want from it and it kinda makes sense.  Again, seems to 
have less devs than Writer or Calc.  Draw seems to be more popular and seems to 
gain more attention for the increases in it's functionality.  


Generally i would avoid the early release in any branch.  I like to try them 
but only on one of my own systems, not on any of my colleagues.  It's good to 
try the x.x.0 - x.x.3 but just for your own benefit, to post bug-reports 
against and hopefully catch the interest of the most possible devs before they 
move on to other things (such as the next branch).  Each branch becomes much 
more stable by the x.x.4 and from then on just increases in stability without 
gaining much extra functionality.  Better stability means you are less likely 
to find something that needs to have a bug-report posted.  The x.x.6 tends to 
be very solid.  Think of that 3rd number as a "Service Pack" but divide by 2 
because MS only goes up to Sp3.  


I suspect the recalculation in Calc might be a memory issue?  Perhaps try
Tools - Options - Memory
and bump a lot of those values up.  Also look in 
Tools - Options - Calc
to see if something weird is in there.  There is a key that forces 
recalculation but i don't know it.  


The in-built help files are not as useful as the official documentation.  You 
can get the latest and even pre-release guides from
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Some of the 3.3.x guides have been translated into a few other languages but 
not many.  To get the in-built help you have to download it and then install 
after installing the main part of LO.  For example the 2nd 'button' on 
http://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=win-x86&lang=en-GB&version=3.5.6
Note that you can choose from many other languages.  That link is for English 
(Gb/Uk) but for my colleagues i have added Gujaratii, Italian, Japanese and 
more so that different logins on those machines can have different languages.   


I definitely agree that LO needs to far exceed MS Office in order to even get 
looked at.  In many ways i think it is far better but i can admit that it does 
have apparent weaknesses that are more likely to be noticed than the good 
stuff.  It's the same for people from any minority group.  If you are 10 times 
better but they notice 1 thing they think is odd then they focus on the 1 
thing.  However, as Gandhi said "First they ignore you.  Then they laugh at 
you.  Then they fight you.  Then you win" so don't be discouraged.  I think LO 
has pushed things from a decade of being stifled in step 1 into somewhere 
between 2 & 3 and in some places (such as Brasil) step 4 already!  


When migrating away from MSO it's usually better to keep using it but gradually 
use LO more but at the start only for a few things or even just one or two 
things until you get more familiar with the difference.  
Regards from
Tom :)  






>
> From: Pertti Rönnberg 
>To: Tom Davies  
>Cc: "users@global.libreoffice.org"  
>Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 18:27
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
>renting their office products instead
> 
>
>Hi Tom,
>Thank you for a very informative answer - it is bad that all this
  is not mentioned as a basic info about LibO.
>I am prepared to trust it as true but honestly I have to rely on
  my own experiences both regarding Win/MSO and LibO.
>
>I have been using Windows and many of MS programs since early
  1980:  all of the modules in the MSO suite, Access, Publisher,
  Visio, Project, etc
>>>    never any problems with installing
>>>    never need to send any kind of bug reports
>>>    never any need to contact any community/list for help
>>>    cannot remember not one machine crash when using
  Windows-MS-

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Pertti Rönnberg]

t-points line-up and retain the same size. Likewise with 
numbered lists.



Another problem is the way Word can't handle images with much 
sophistication.  MS produce a different product for people to buy.  
Publisher.  Most of the functionality of publisher wouldn't be needed 
if Word wasn't such a Pos.  Writer handles most things that Publisher 
does with more elegance and sophistication.



Another problem is the limited choices when exporting to Pdf.  I often 
get posters and stuff from Word users that probably looked quite good 
at their end but the jpg compression has made a mad swirly mess of 
it.  LibreOffice allows you to set the type of compression and even 
allows people to create uncompressed Pdfs. Pdfs can be created with 
various levels of integration with screen-readers for blind-users.  MS 
Word has limited options.


So, LO already is a far better product in many, many ways but people 
have learned to accept problems with MS stuff and are even happy when 
their machine is heavily infected with malware that results from using 
MS junk.


Just my opinion and doubtless many people, especially the BoD disagree.
Regards from
Tom :)



------------------------
*From:* Pertti Rönnberg 
*To:* users@global.libreoffice.org
*Sent:* Thursday, 27 September 2012, 14:04
*Subject:* Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people
will now start renting their office products instead

All the best LibO folks,
This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps
also useful -- but back to the basic question!
Microsoft is going to change their behavior.

Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they
can't be totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying.
It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy
and expresses your foolishness.  LibO only have to accept it.

Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without
remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather
quickly.
That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired
to pay what ever the cost.

What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable
share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must
offer and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit
it's Access included -- equal is far away from enough.

Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced
- seldom use more than a 2-5%  of the LibO's (MSO's) features.
Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make
sure that at least these work properly -- Base included.

If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy
to use -- and especially it's help function understandable for
every new user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except
for a small group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little
kindergarten.
I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy.
If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at
least not disappear.
Pertti Rönnberg



On 27.9.2012 10:08, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
>> I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an
extension to help with the syncing to a Google account.
>>
> Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav
which doesn't require any extension at all.
>
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird

>
>


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Does Caldev sync to Google?  If so then it's a winner imo.  

This all seems a little off-topic since LO doesn't have a calendar but since 
calendars are included in competitors equivalent and because calendars are 
often quite useful to people working with office packages it would be good to 
know and have good answers about this sort of thing for people in the future.  
Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Gordon Burgess-Parker 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 8:08
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
>renting their office products instead
> 
>On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
>> I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help 
>> with the syncing to a Google account.
>> 
>Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't 
>require any extension at all.
>http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird
>
>
>-- 
>Registered Linux User no 240308
>GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/  Say No to 
>OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8
>I only accept odf or pdf documents by email
>
>
>-- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org
>Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tanstaafl]

On 2012-09-27 10:14 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

If you click on the Sunbird link it also says Lightning - I'm using it
here in Lightning 1.7


Ah, ok, thanks...

Hmmm... we are using Thunderbird ESR here at the office, and it is stuck 
at Lightning 1.2.3... I wonder what version of Lightning fully supports 
CalDav...



my wife sends me invites and updates from Outlook via an Exchange
server and it seems to work OK...


Good to know... I'll play with it when I have a few spare CPU cycles 
(maybe sometime in 2015?)... ;)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 27/09/12 13:16, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 2012-09-27 3:08 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to
help with the syncing to a Google account.


Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which
doesn't require any extension at all.
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird 



I don't see anything about Lightning/Thunderbird support...


If you click on the Sunbird link it also says Lightning - I'm using it 
here in Lightning 1.7




If it actually does work in Thunderbird+Lightning, do you know if it 
works properly interacting with Meeting Requests/Invitations/Updates 
from users using Outlook/Exchange? The current 
Thunderbird+Lightning+Provider for Google Calendar doesn't (works 
halfway, but Updates are totally broken)...


It /seems/ to - my wife sends me invites and updates from Outlook via an 
Exchange server and it seems to work OK...


--

Registered Linux User no 240308
GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/  
Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8

I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
On the contrary. MS do not fix their problems quickly at all.  Even known 
malware threats remain for months and even years.  Their strategy is to blame 
the users.  A typical one being to tell users they shouldn't be using macros 
because of the likelihood of getting an infected or corrupted one.  Read "The 
Emperor’s New Clothes".  People are told that MS Office is the best and so when 
they find problems with it they tend to blame themselves rather than the 
software.  

For example when using non-MS software someone would quite happily slate the 
product with this sort of thing "I opened my document and deleted tons of stuff 
and saved it using the same name.  now when i open the document it has all that 
stuff missing!  The stupid program can't even find the stuff that i deleted.  
No, of course i don't have a back-up of the file before my deletions"

One problem that has never been solved is that when creating an MS document the 
style keeps randomly changing without the user doing anything noticeable.  So, 
the language keeps switching to US.  Bullet-points and numbering styles keep 
changing.  So in a bulleted list the points keep changing shape, size and 
amount they are indented by.  Numbered lists may well miss a few numbers or 
repeat a few or suddenly change from i), ii) to c), d) or other weirdness.  

People have learned to accept all this shoddiness from Word because it happens 
to so many people.  Really advanced users have learned to re-impose formatting 
after completing a document or just accept it.  

Spelling has gone out the window not just because of the MTV generation but 
also because MS's spell-checker keeps switching languages back into American 
(US) so things that are correct are sometimes given a red-wriggle and sometimes 
blatantly incorrect spellings are not found.  


LibreOffice tends to stick to the same style throughout, unless the user has 
deliberately changed styles and is aware of having done so.  So, bullet-points 
line-up and retain the same size.  Likewise with numbered lists.  


Another problem is the way Word can't handle images with much sophistication.  
MS produce a different product for people to buy.  Publisher.  Most of the 
functionality of publisher wouldn't be needed if Word wasn't such a Pos.  
Writer handles most things that Publisher does with more elegance and 
sophistication.  


Another problem is the limited choices when exporting to Pdf.  I often get 
posters and stuff from Word users that probably looked quite good at their end 
but the jpg compression has made a mad swirly mess of it.  LibreOffice allows 
you to set the type of compression and even allows people to create 
uncompressed Pdfs.  Pdfs can be created with various levels of integration with 
screen-readers for blind-users.  MS Word has limited options.  

So, LO already is a far better product in many, many ways but people have 
learned to accept problems with MS stuff and are even happy when their machine 
is heavily infected with malware that results from using MS junk.  

Just my opinion and doubtless many people, especially the BoD disagree.  
Regards from
Tom :)






>
> From: Pertti Rönnberg 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 14:04
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
>renting their office products instead
> 
>All the best LibO folks,
>This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also useful -- 
>but back to the basic question!
>Microsoft is going to change their behavior.
>
>Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be totally 
>wrong when having 95% and people accept paying.
>It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and 
>expresses your foolishness.  LibO only have to accept it.
>
>Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable 
>problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly.
>That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay what 
>ever the cost.
>
>What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share oh 
>this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also deliver 
>something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included -- equal is 
>far away from enough.
>
>Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - seldom use 
>more than a 2-5%  of the LibO's (MSO's) features.
>Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure that at 
>least these work properly -- Base included.
>
>If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use -- and 
>especially it's help function understandable for every new user -- then there 
>is no larger fu

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Pertti Rönnberg]

All the best LibO folks,
This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also 
useful -- but back to the basic question!

Microsoft is going to change their behavior.

Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be 
totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying.
It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and 
expresses your foolishness.  LibO only have to accept it.


Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable 
problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly.
That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay 
what ever the cost.


What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share 
oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also 
deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included 
-- equal is far away from enough.


Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - 
seldom use more than a 2-5%  of the LibO's (MSO's) features.
Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure 
that at least these work properly -- Base included.


If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use 
-- and especially it's help function understandable for every new user 
-- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small group of 
idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten.

I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy.
If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at least 
not disappear.

Pertti Rönnberg



On 27.9.2012 10:08, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to 
help with the syncing to a Google account.


Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which 
doesn't require any extension at all.
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird 







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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tanstaafl]

On 2012-09-27 3:08 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:

I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to
help with the syncing to a Google account.


Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which
doesn't require any extension at all.
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird


I don't see anything about Lightning/Thunderbird support...

If it actually does work in Thunderbird+Lightning, do you know if it 
works properly interacting with Meeting Requests/Invitations/Updates 
from users using Outlook/Exchange? The current 
Thunderbird+Lightning+Provider for Google Calendar doesn't (works 
halfway, but Updates are totally broken)...


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote:
I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to 
help with the syncing to a Google account.


Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which 
doesn't require any extension at all.

http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird


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I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 24/09/12 20:03, James Knott wrote:
Syncing Lightning with Google Calendar requires an add-on such as 
"Provider for Google Calendar".



No it doesn't - and the latest version of Calendar Sync is a bit flakey.
You can use Caldav instead which doesn't need an add-on.
http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=99358#sunbird


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Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8

I only accept odf or pdf documents by email


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[webmaster-Kracked_P_P]

On 09/24/2012 03:03 PM, James Knott wrote:

Tom Davies wrote:
For my colleagues it would be nice to have a Calendar that is easier 
to find and integrate, for example. But i haven't found any sort of 
calendar, either on-screen or off, that works for me


I use Lightning with Thunderbird and Seamonkey.  I also sync it with 
Google Calenar, so I have it on my computers, tablet and smart phone.  
Google Calendar can also be accessed with any browser. Syncing 
Lightning with Google Calendar requires an add-on such as "Provider 
for Google Calendar".


I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to 
help with the syncing to a Google account.


I have them somewhere.
. . . .
Here they are.  I remembered I had them on the NA-DVD but did not add 
links to them in the Lightning section of the Extras page.  I have never 
used them since I do not have a Google mail or calendar account [I think].


http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-win32-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi

http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/ 
gdata-provider.xpi 



http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-mac-1.3/ 
gdata-provider.xpi 


.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Jay Lozier]

On 09/25/2012 11:51 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of
>> macros would be the second group 
> Objection.
>
> The point is that those people who actually use "office software" in
> companies have absolutely no influence on what they work with. It's the
> manangsters and administrictators who (pretend to) "decide" about this.
>
>> because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they
>> languages they learned as an undergraduate) 
> I don't know any scientist or engineer who has ever learned Visual
> Basic at university. And I know only *very* few who have *ever* learned
> it at all.
>
>> and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not
>> programming.
> A lot of scientists and engineers, if they use any scripting/programming
> languages for "software automation" etc. tend to prefer languages that
> provide an interactive commandline interpreter, besides other criteria
> that VBA doesn't fulfil. A lot of those I know have learned Python as
> their genuine "bread and butter" scripting & programming language. Some
> even learn it as a "first language" at university these days.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wolfgang
>
Wolfgang

What language one first learns is often determined by what is used in
the "Introduction to Programming" courses and of course when you took
the course. I know a few colleges used VB for their introductory course
in the States. I know of Canadian university that uses Python.  What
type of programming you do determines the language you tend use and find
in your work place.

Whether one learned VB depends on ones situation and needs. I have done
some VBA programming because where I worked need some automation of
spreadsheet calculations for Excel spreadsheets. We did light process
design and project management in the office I was at.

My intro to programming was originally in Fortran IV (aka Fortrash) and
later Pascal.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Doug]

On 09/25/2012 11:51 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:

My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of
macros would be the second group

Objection.

The point is that those people who actually use "office software" in
companies have absolutely no influence on what they work with. It's the
manangsters and administrictators who (pretend to) "decide" about this.


because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they
languages they learned as an undergraduate)

I don't know any scientist or engineer who has ever learned Visual
Basic at university. And I know only *very* few who have *ever* learned
it at all.


and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not
programming.

A lot of scientists and engineers, if they use any scripting/programming
languages for "software automation" etc. tend to prefer languages that
provide an interactive commandline interpreter, besides other criteria
that VBA doesn't fulfil. A lot of those I know have learned Python as
their genuine "bread and butter" scripting & programming language. Some
even learn it as a "first language" at university these days.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


As an engineer, now retired, I used BASIC for many years, then took
a class in Pascal and wrote some code in Pascal.  You are correct--
all I wanted, in almost all cases, was command-line input and screen
or print (or both) output.  I first wrote BASIC on a teletype machine
connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe somewhere in Texas.
Eventually I went to work for an outfit that had an HP "desktop"--
a great big machine about 3 feet high that saved files on cassette
tape, and used HP-BASIC, which was a bit more powerful than the
standard.  Finally there was a company that had a CPM machine,
and I could do standard BASIC in house.  That's also where I first
wrote Pascal.  It wasn't Borland, it was somebody else's, I don't
remember the name. When PCs became affordable, Borland's
Pascal came out, and it was nice, especially at first, before they
complicated it!  The nearest thing I ever got to graphics was a
batch of xxx pr *** marks printed on a sheet of paper!  Crude
graphics indeed, but you could see the general shape of a filter
characteristic.

I never wanted to learn Visual Basic or the Pascal equivalent--I forget
what it was called. I was too busy doing engineering, and the tool
that I had was sufficient at the time. That's not to say that I didn't use
commercial graphical programs when they came out.  I made a
great deal of use of them, but I also realized that a whole lot of
hours and a lot of abstruse math went into them, and that's not
what I was there to do.  EEsof's Touchstone and the AutoCAD
programs saved a tremendous amount of time and breadboarding,
and I'm sure they paid for themselves, even at their exorbitant
prices.

--doug


--
Blessed are the peacekeepers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. 
--A.M. Greeley


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+1 Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Tom Davies]

HI :)
+1
It might be nice to have an Extension that allows people to import LaTeX or 
have a program that can export a LaTeX document to Odf but it's not something 
that many people would use.  I doubt it would even be usefully possible.  A lot 
of the advantage of the format would be lost when converting it.  

A far better example than my stupid earlier one of spell checkers.  Many of us 
have probably never even heard of LaTeX but are somewhat reliant on decent 
spell checkers (ie NOT the MS ones).  
Regards from
Tom :)  






>
> From: Mirosław Zalewski 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 25 September 2012, 17:37
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start 
>renting their office products instead
> 
>On 25/09/2012 at 17:52, Wolfgang Keller  wrote:
>
>> - actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX
>> Beamer provides.
>
>
>Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but never 
>really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to offer that LO is 
>not capable of.
>
>As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every feature 
>of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current WYSIWYG). I strongly 
>believe that target group of LibreOffice is different than target group of 
>LaTeX. 
>LaTeX is already free, vital community exists, there are dedicated editors - 
>users who prefer LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX.
>-- 
>Best regards
>Mirosław Zalewski
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Mirosław Zalewski]

On 25/09/2012 at 17:52, Wolfgang Keller  wrote:

> - actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX
> Beamer provides.


Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but never 
really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to offer that LO is 
not capable of.

As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every feature 
of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current WYSIWYG). I strongly 
believe that target group of LibreOffice is different than target group of 
LaTeX. 
LaTeX is already free, vital community exists, there are dedicated editors - 
users who prefer LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> Most features one needs have been include in office suites since the
> some time in the 90's. I can not think of a feature that I want see
> implemented that is not already implemented.

Objection.

instead of braindeadly cloning MS "features", which are mostly based on
cerebral flatulances emanating from "product managers" and similar
pointy-haired lifeforms, free software should imho instead demonstrate
how to increase user productivity by focusing on intelligent functional
concepts.

For example:

- genuine "structure markup", like e.g. Wordperfect or Framemaker
provide. Instead of the "spaghetti" document model of MS Word.

- readable typesetting, such as e.g. LaTeX provides.

- possibilities to structure spreadsheets (like e.g. Lotus 1-2-3 did or
Quantrix Modeler still provides), use symbolic variable names (same
examples to follow) and a reasonably human-readable formula syntax
instead of the nestable-functional "spaghetti" mess à la Excel.

- actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX
Beamer provides.

- etc. and so on

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead

[Wolfgang Keller]

> My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of
> macros would be the second group 

Objection.

The point is that those people who actually use "office software" in
companies have absolutely no influence on what they work with. It's the
manangsters and administrictators who (pretend to) "decide" about this.

> because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they
> languages they learned as an undergraduate) 

I don't know any scientist or engineer who has ever learned Visual
Basic at university. And I know only *very* few who have *ever* learned
it at all.

> and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not
> programming.

A lot of scientists and engineers, if they use any scripting/programming
languages for "software automation" etc. tend to prefer languages that
provide an interactive commandline interpreter, besides other criteria
that VBA doesn't fulfil. A lot of those I know have learned Python as
their genuine "bread and butter" scripting & programming language. Some
even learn it as a "first language" at university these days.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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