Re: [OT] Deafening silence
Tim: >>> But, I can't see what could possibly be wrong with a filter such as >>> this: >>> >>> reply-to contains users@lists.fedoraproject.org >>> move to folder lists/fedora >>> stop processing & Tim: >> Looking at the log, each filtered message takes at least 3 to 4 seconds >> to go through. That's tediously slow. jdow: > What "filter" are you running? What possessed you to run it inside > an email client? (What possessed Fedora to commit that atrocity?) Exactly the sort of filtering rule that I outlined above (one matching rule, one action). I'm on several mailing lists, and for many many years before running Linux, I would simply get my mail client to sort incoming mail into folders for each list, like that. None of them had any problems doing such a thing, and neither should Evolution. > If you are running SpamAssassin as a filter Definitely not, and I've explicitly said I don't do that. And I agree that you want it done elsewhere, if you're going to do it. Preferably at the first mail server that handles your mail (which really would be the ISP, but so few ISPs give you good configuration options if you do that). -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
From: "Tim"
Sent: Thursday, 2010/April/22 09:35
> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 00:34 +0930, Tim wrote:
>> You don't happen to know what the flag is, by the way?
>
> Scratch that, I found it moments later (after missing the obvious).
>
>> But, I can't see what could possibly be wrong with a filter such as
>> this:
>>
>> reply-to contains users@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> move to folder lists/fedora
>> stop processing
>
> Looking at the log, each filtered message takes at least 3 to 4 seconds
> to go through. That's tediously slow.
>
> Compare it to "The Bat!" that I used to use with Windows, years ago,
> each message zipped through. Imagine bending over a deck of cards until
> they flip over, flapping between your fingers. You could hear the hard
> drive kerchunking, like that, as each message passed through.
>
> I've, now, spent an hour filtering messages on Evolution that would have
> taken seconds on another client (with years old software, and a much
> slower PC).
What "filter" are you running? What possessed you to run it inside
an email client? (What possessed Fedora to commit that atrocity?)
If you are running SpamAssassin as a filter you want to run it at the
time you "fetchmail" messages from your ISP and have the filtered and
tagged results placed in your local Dovecot mailspool. You get a small
lag on messages sent to you before they can be read. But you see no
long delays as you start your email client and roll through your
messages reading and discarding.
{^_^} (VERY long time SpamAssassin admin for two people and "many"
email addresses.)
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Re: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 10:03 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote:
>
> One thing I have seen it do, however, is get its caches confused and
> refuse to show new mail.
I have never seen that in many years of using Evolution.
> On the calendaring side, on a number of occasions the Palm sync got
> messed up and duplicated all of my calendar events. For a while, each
> time I sync'd it would double the duplicates, causing 1, then 2, then 4,
> then 8 copies of each event. That was a royal pain to undo.
I have definitely seen this. It is so bad that I cannot use my Linux box
as my primary base for my Palm. I have only gotten syncing to work
reliably if I do it only in one direction, so I use a Windows VM as the
master, and sync the Palm onto Linux one way ("Copy from PDA"). This one
is REALLY annoying and it has been there through several Fedora
releases.
However, I doubt if this is an Evolution bug, it is more likely a bug in
gpilotd or lower level pilot-link stuff, which means any other high
level user interface program that uses the same lower level backing
software will probably exhibit the same thing.
--Greg
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Re: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On 04/22/2010 08:44 AM, Linuxguy123 wrote: > I've been using Evolution as my only email client since 2002. > I agree that it has a number of shortcomings. > > Its been an up and down road for sure but one thing that I can say is > that I have not lost a single email in the 8 years I have been using > it. > > I think this relates to the fact that Evo using plain text files to > store emails. Prior to Evo, Outlook used to lose my emails and crash on > a regular basis. > > I really wish that someone would inject some life into Evo. I've been > looking at a gray Evo screen for 8 years. How about a little color ? > > I keep all my mail on servers, so I guess I really haven't given evolution a chance to lose it. One thing I have seen it do, however, is get its caches confused and refuse to show new mail. This happened just this last week where mail that was delivered to my mailbox last Friday morning didn't show up in the reader until Tuesday afternoon. The logs show it was delivered to the mailbox, but for some reason evolution wouldn't show it despite showing all sorts of other new mail that arrived over the weekend. I've hit this a number of times, and the work around was to delete all the disk caches and let them rebuild. Of course, you have to realize that some emails are not being shown to you before you know enough to restart. On the calendaring side, on a number of occasions the Palm sync got messed up and duplicated all of my calendar events. For a while, each time I sync'd it would double the duplicates, causing 1, then 2, then 4, then 8 copies of each event. That was a royal pain to undo. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 09:44 -0600, Linuxguy123 wrote: > I really wish that someone would inject some life into Evo. I've been > looking at a gray Evo screen for 8 years. How about a little color ? There's blue, and yellow, and green, and red, and orange... -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 00:34 +0930, Tim wrote: > You don't happen to know what the flag is, by the way? Scratch that, I found it moments later (after missing the obvious). > But, I can't see what could possibly be wrong with a filter such as > this: > > reply-to contains users@lists.fedoraproject.org > move to folder lists/fedora > stop processing Looking at the log, each filtered message takes at least 3 to 4 seconds to go through. That's tediously slow. Compare it to "The Bat!" that I used to use with Windows, years ago, each message zipped through. Imagine bending over a deck of cards until they flip over, flapping between your fingers. You could hear the hard drive kerchunking, like that, as each message passed through. I've, now, spent an hour filtering messages on Evolution that would have taken seconds on another client (with years old software, and a much slower PC). -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:22 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote: > I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird. > > I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for > the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was > calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the > promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming. > > Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes > up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but > apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like > network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying > 2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since > it grows over time. > > I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears. > When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks. > > Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar > and I'm not looking back. > > Wayne. I've been using Evolution as my only email client since 2002. I agree that it has a number of shortcomings. Its been an up and down road for sure but one thing that I can say is that I have not lost a single email in the 8 years I have been using it. I think this relates to the fact that Evo using plain text files to store emails. Prior to Evo, Outlook used to lose my emails and crash on a regular basis. I really wish that someone would inject some life into Evo. I've been looking at a gray Evo screen for 8 years. How about a little color ? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
Tim: >> Filtering is dead slow, that's for sure. After setting up about four >> filters, it gets really painful. So I just drag a bunch of messages >> from my inbox to a folder, every now and then. Patrick O'Callaghan: > I have a whole bunch of filters and don't even notice the time lag. > Note that you can log filter actions to see what Evo is doing (this > requires editing a Gconf flag but it's not hard). Obviously the > complexity of the filters can play a part, e.g. if they have to do > LDAP lookups against a slow server then you're asking for trouble. You don't happen to know what the flag is, by the way? But, I can't see what could possibly be wrong with a filter such as this: reply-to contains users@lists.fedoraproject.org move to folder lists/fedora stop processing That, and several filters just the same, being set up on the inbox, working with an IMAP server on the LAN. There's nothing complex about any of them. And it doesn't seem to matter if I change it to filter on the "to" address, for example. I suspect it's down to Evolution not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 18:51 +0930, Tim wrote: > On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 15:27 -0400, fred smith wrote: > > Yeah, I've tried Evolution 2 or 3 times over the last few years and > > always ended up being disappointed. For one thing it's DOG SLOW. It > > seems to want to index all the mail folders every time it starts and > > that can take MINUTES. and even when past that it's still like > > molasses climbing a hill in January in northern canada. > > I can't say I notice it trying to index everything when firing up. > Though I haven't got it set to check all folders, nor do spam checking, > nor do filtering. > > Filtering is dead slow, that's for sure. After setting up about four > filters, it gets really painful. So I just drag a bunch of messages > from my inbox to a folder, every now and then. I have a whole bunch of filters and don't even notice the time lag. Note that you can log filter actions to see what Evo is doing (this requires editing a Gconf flag but it's not hard). Obviously the complexity of the filters can play a part, e.g. if they have to do LDAP lookups against a slow server then you're asking for trouble. > It's also rather bad at doing two things at once. Such as deleting a > message, then trying to read another one. It won't open the next one > until the deletion has completely finished what it's up to. True. As I said in an earlier reply, the hope is that changing Bonobo for D-Bus will help a lot. > But, despite the problems, it's still the least worst GUI client > available to me, out of those I've tried. That's hardly a good > recommendation, though. Agreed. Every so often I get mad at Evo and switch to TBird for half an hour or so, then switch back. I've also tried Claws for a few days and didn't like it much (it didn't support correct IMAP deletion at the time, maybe that's changed), but that's more a question of what you're used to. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 18:46 +0930, Tim wrote: > On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 00:53 +0200, birger wrote: > > I tried it years ago, and it was very unstable with severe memory > > leaks so if I managed to keep it up for a few days it would slow down > > my pc to a crawl. > > Just curious. Do you keep the Evolution program window running all the > time, or do you exit the program when doing reading? Exit my email client? Are you out of your mind? ;-) It's always up and running, usually on at least 2 PC's simultaneously. Since evolution-mapi is far from being usable for me yet, I run outlook from citrix, so that one I shut down every day. Evolution is up while the laptop suspends and wakes up between different subnets each day. birger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 15:27 -0400, fred smith wrote: > Yeah, I've tried Evolution 2 or 3 times over the last few years and > always ended up being disappointed. For one thing it's DOG SLOW. It > seems to want to index all the mail folders every time it starts and > that can take MINUTES. and even when past that it's still like > molasses climbing a hill in January in northern canada. I can't say I notice it trying to index everything when firing up. Though I haven't got it set to check all folders, nor do spam checking, nor do filtering. Filtering is dead slow, that's for sure. After setting up about four filters, it gets really painful. So I just drag a bunch of messages from my inbox to a folder, every now and then. It's also rather bad at doing two things at once. Such as deleting a message, then trying to read another one. It won't open the next one until the deletion has completely finished what it's up to. But, despite the problems, it's still the least worst GUI client available to me, out of those I've tried. That's hardly a good recommendation, though. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 00:53 +0200, birger wrote: > I tried it years ago, and it was very unstable with severe memory > leaks so if I managed to keep it up for a few days it would slow down > my pc to a crawl. Just curious. Do you keep the Evolution program window running all the time, or do you exit the program when doing reading? I haven't noticed Evolution romp through my memory, even on PCs that run nearly continuously. But, I exit the program after reading my mail, and restart it the next time I want to read mail. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 20:38 +0100, mike cloaked wrote: > Just to chime in here - I had abandoned Evo too some years ago but I > was recently trying various mail clients again to see how things have > changed. That is how it was for me as well. I tried it years ago, and it was very unstable with severe memory leaks so if I managed to keep it up for a few days it would slow down my pc to a crawl. A while back I decided to give it a new try after having been a thunderbird enthusiast for years. For my IMAP accounts it seems to be very stable and fast. So good that I have actually switched to evolution on all of my systems. For MAPI/exchange accounts it keeps getting better, but there are lots of issues. I keep testing it whenever I have time to do a little bug reporting, and my bugs actually keep getting picked up and worked on. birger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:22 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote: > Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes > up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but > apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like > network communication from the UI thread. The Evo devels say this is caused by limitations of the underlying Bonobo IPC model. Since Bonobo has now been replaced by D-Bus in the newest Evo release (2.30, out now and in F13) we can hope for improvements in these areas in the short term. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:22 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote: > I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird. Please note here that I am not attempting to deny that any of the problems you are having are real. I am just providing another data point. > Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. I use an LDAP server and I have never seen this happen. I have been using Evolution as my e-mail client since it became the default in Fedora (at least 4 or 5 releases ago I think). I do use the Palm sync capabilities; that seems to mostly work well as long as I only sync in one direction. As soon as I try syncing both ways, I end up with duplicated tasks, memos, and contacts that are a real pain to remove. I expect this happens in the lower level gpilot software rather than in Evolution itself, but I don't know that. I don't connect to any other calendar servers with Evolution, nor do I have any need to connect to Exchange, nor have I ever filed a bug against Evolution, so I cannot comment on those. I have not noticed Evolution trying to index everything on startup, but I have heard complaints about Thunderbird 3 doing this. I think Evolution has definitely gotten better since I started using it. I used to see it crash suddenly. I still have that happen but only once in a great while now. It used to have issues with it continuing to show me that there were messages in a folder when in fact it was empty. This too has been largely fixed in my experience. But in the end, it's always "use whatever works for you". --Greg -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:22 PM, Wayne Feick wrote: > I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird. > > I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for > the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was > calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the > promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming. > > Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes > up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but > apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like > network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying > 2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since > it grows over time. > > I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears. > When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks. > > Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar > and I'm not looking back. Just to chime in here - I had abandoned Evo too some years ago but I was recently trying various mail clients again to see how things have changed. I set up Evo in F12 to deal with my work mail (Imap) and although not particularly fast when first starting Evo it works ok - other things that are positive too are that it handles encrypted mail correctly (with GPG) without needing an extension like Thunderbird does. It also connects to gmail calendars with the caldav protocol just fine which is another feature I really wanted. I am using Thunderbird 3.1b2 nightly and there are issues with the enigmail extension but it also does have lightning to handle calendars, using caldav. It also handles html mail and although some people are very much against the use of html in email it does have its uses particularly in business areas. Fedora runs releases that are somewhat behind the nightlies but I do use Thunderbird - I guess there is no ideal mail client! -- mike c -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 12:22:15PM -0700, Wayne Feick wrote: > I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird. > > I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for > the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was > calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the > promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming. > > Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes > up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but > apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like > network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying > 2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since > it grows over time. > > I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears. > When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks. > > Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar > and I'm not looking back. > > Wayne. > Yeah, I've tried Evolution 2 or 3 times over the last few years and always ended up being disappointed. For one thing it's DOG SLOW. It seems to want to index all the mail folders every time it starts and that can take MINUTES. and even when past that it's still like molasses climbing a hill in January in northern canada. > > > On 03/22/2010 01:56 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote: > > Craig White wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: > >> > >>> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly > >>> have > >>> been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really > >>> didn't *matter*. > >>> > >> > >> would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting. > >> > >> I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and > >> it just got picked up today... > >> > >> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193 > >> > >> Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in > >> the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad. > >> > >> Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way. > >> > >> > > Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux > > kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a > > lifetime job. > > > > > > -- > users mailing list > users@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe or change subscription options: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines -- Fred Smith -- fre...@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. --- Romans 5:8 (niv) -- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On 04/21/2010 12:22 PM, Wayne Feick wrote: > I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird. > > I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for > the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was > calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the > promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming. > > Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes > up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but > apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like > network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying > 2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since > it grows over time. > > I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears. > When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks. > > Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar > and I'm not looking back. > > Wayne. > > > > On 03/22/2010 01:56 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote: > >> Craig White wrote: >> >> >>> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: >>> >>> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote: >>> >>> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly have been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really didn't *matter*. >>> >>> would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting. >>> >>> I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and >>> it just got picked up today... >>> >>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193 >>> >>> Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in >>> the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad. >>> >>> Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way. >>> >>> >>> >> Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux >> kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a >> lifetime job. >> >> >> > I know what you mean there. I gave up on evolution on day 2 of my Fedora install. Thunderbird is buggy but what isn't I have been jpilot for me palm device, seems to work well enough Have a great day Michael -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird. I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming. Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying 2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since it grows over time. I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears. When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks. Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar and I'm not looking back. Wayne. On 03/22/2010 01:56 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote: > Craig White wrote: > >> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: >> >>> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote: >>> >> >>> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly >>> have >>> been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really >>> didn't *matter*. >>> >> >> would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting. >> >> I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and >> it just got picked up today... >> >> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193 >> >> Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in >> the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad. >> >> Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way. >> >> > Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux > kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a > lifetime job. > > -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
Craig White wrote: > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: >> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote: > >> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly >> have >> been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really >> didn't *matter*. > > would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting. > > I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and > it just got picked up today... > > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193 > > Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in > the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad. > > Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way. > Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a lifetime job. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 15:24 +, Alan Cox wrote: > > Since you have a "little bit of experience" in development :) do you > > think that developers -- maybe mainly application developers? -- would > > benefit from this deadline for downstream releases(1)? Debian's "ready > > when it's ready" developers wouldn't appreciate much, I'm afraid, but > > some agree that they must work towards more (fixed? fixe, in french) > > development periods. (I don't care much about you commenting the rest > > of my post, but I'd be interested in getting your opinion on this.) > > Again it depends. If your application wants to use cool new feature X > then you want everyone to upgrade and then use your cool new app. If you > gain nothing much from upgrades but the hassle of having to rebuild, > retest etc then 'never' is quite a good upgrade rate. > > > Hummm... I suppose every case is different. > > It's a question of benefit and timescales. It doesn't take you 18 months > to certify your desktop works and all the software on top is reliable, > make the entire set up pass a third party security audit, pass the > various credit card requirements, run performance analysis, track down > regressions and then roll out live bit by bit along with any retraining > along the way. > > Business timescales are long, and industrial timescales longer still. > There are PDP-11 systems (or these days often emulators!) still running > away in industrial plants doing what they've been doing for thirty odd > years. The machinery they are tied to is often good for fifty plus years > and depreciated accordingly, so there isn't a real urge to upgrade. > > The software folks have a very short term perspective - equalled perhaps > by only a few industries such as fashion clothing. Imagine if the first > PC you installed when you joined your first employer would be getting > decomissioned about the time you retired ? Hard to picture but in the > railroad world the chances are the first piece of track laid by some 18 > year old newbie platelayer will finally get retired about the same time > as the person who laid it. In civil engineering you often build things > that you expect to last hundreds of years. Todays engineers are doing > 'maintenance' (I guess you might consider it 'service pack 2' 8) on > victorian structures that will then be good for just light maintenance > for another century. > > This gives people a rather different sense of time and upgrading to > software engineers. > > Alan But the curves depend on the application. If one were to look at the curve for say the Wright Flyer, to the Blackbird, what would be the maturation line there? We went from 0 to 3500 knots in just about 55 years. The evolution, from the Kite like stick and cloth to stick and cloth with frameworks, to sheetmetal and rotary engines to sheetmetal and metal chassis and jets, and to composite materials and titanium with scram jets in just 75 years, and no one would think of trying to retrofit an ejection module from the blackbird to a wright flyer ;-) Whereas the genesis of the modern general purpose computer has spawned billions of devices within essentially the same time frame of the airplane (maybe a bit shorter, but one can never be sure what governments are hiding.) And while one might keep a Wright Flyer around, no one would expect it to do any serious work other than as an educational tool for budding aerospace engineers. I have programmed on PDP-11's and PDP-8's and also on microcontrollers that would run rings around them. Modern stuff gets built because there are uses and needs that the older stuff just cannot meet. Not that the older stuff has no value, just that its usefulness is not so wonderful when compared with the new kids on the block. Costs however can certainly distort this picture. Regards, Les H -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Craig White wrote: > On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 01:45 -0400, Marcel Rieux wrote: >> BTW, to all, I found this article that I found very interesting: >> >> https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/377930/51c110883cc4de9c/ >> >> It answered a lot of my questions on Fedora/Red Hat development. I >> intend to comment on it but spent the day reading all sort of >> documentation and tomorrow I might be busy. >> >> If anybody want to start a thread, I have no objection, of course, but >> I'll start mine, with a clear confession about being a Karl 3 >> look-alike, a Microsoft troll and a freeloader. You know, just to make >> sure that certain people do not waste their precious time explaining >> while their help is so badly needed somewhere else. > > lwn is intended to foster discussion on opinion related matter while > this list is not. You should be directing your energies there. Of course, technique is not about opinion while development is all about opinion. Anyway, as far as i can see, your only purpose on this group is thrashing. You're not interested by what I post? Do as you pretend most people have done with my posts: thrash them. I certain won't complain. I far as I'm concerned, though this article talks about developers having exactly the same concerns about development as me -- whereas you maintained until now there was no problem whatsoever, just people not filly enough bug reports -- I certainly won't subscribe to lwn to comment on Fedora development. My advice: GET LOST! -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Alan Cox wrote: >> Since you have a "little bit of experience" in development :) do you >> think that developers -- maybe mainly application developers? -- would >> benefit from this deadline for downstream releases(1)? Debian's "ready >> when it's ready" developers wouldn't appreciate much, I'm afraid, but >> some agree that they must work towards more (fixed? fixe, in french) >> development periods. (I don't care much about you commenting the rest >> of my post, but I'd be interested in getting your opinion on this.) > > Again it depends. If your application wants to use cool new feature X > then you want everyone to upgrade and then use your cool new app. If you > gain nothing much from upgrades but the hassle of having to rebuild, > retest etc then 'never' is quite a good upgrade rate. What I was talking about here, maybe it wasn't clear, is Mark Shuttleworth's proposal to release main distributions in step -- he excludes Debian from the obligation, it ssems :) -- every two years. I'll let him explain his proposal: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/290 He says this would ease maintainers' task. >> Hummm... I suppose every case is different. > > It's a question of benefit and timescales. It doesn't take you 18 months > to certify your desktop works and all the software on top is reliable, > make the entire set up pass a third party security audit, pass the > various credit card requirements, run performance analysis, track down > regressions and then roll out live bit by bit along with any retraining > along the way. > > Business timescales are long, and industrial timescales longer still. > There are PDP-11 systems (or these days often emulators!) still running > away in industrial plants doing what they've been doing for thirty odd > years. The machinery they are tied to is often good for fifty plus years > and depreciated accordingly, so there isn't a real urge to upgrade. > > The software folks have a very short term perspective - equalled perhaps > by only a few industries such as fashion clothing. Imagine if the first > PC you installed when you joined your first employer would be getting > decommissioned about the time you retired ? Hard to picture but in the > railroad world the chances are the first piece of track laid by some 18 > year old newbie platelayer will finally get retired about the same time > as the person who laid it. In civil engineering you often build things > that you expect to last hundreds of years. Todays engineers are doing > 'maintenance' (I guess you might consider it 'service pack 2' 8) on > victorian structures that will then be good for just light maintenance > for another century. > > This gives people a rather different sense of time and upgrading to > software engineers. Different perspective indeed :) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 01:45 -0400, Marcel Rieux wrote: > BTW, to all, I found this article that I found very interesting: > > https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/377930/51c110883cc4de9c/ > > It answered a lot of my questions on Fedora/Red Hat development. I > intend to comment on it but spent the day reading all sort of > documentation and tomorrow I might be busy. > > If anybody want to start a thread, I have no objection, of course, but > I'll start mine, with a clear confession about being a Karl 3 > look-alike, a Microsoft troll and a freeloader. You know, just to make > sure that certain people do not waste their precious time explaining > while their help is so badly needed somewhere else. lwn is intended to foster discussion on opinion related matter while this list is not. You should be directing your energies there. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
> Since you have a "little bit of experience" in development :) do you > think that developers -- maybe mainly application developers? -- would > benefit from this deadline for downstream releases(1)? Debian's "ready > when it's ready" developers wouldn't appreciate much, I'm afraid, but > some agree that they must work towards more (fixed? fixe, in french) > development periods. (I don't care much about you commenting the rest > of my post, but I'd be interested in getting your opinion on this.) Again it depends. If your application wants to use cool new feature X then you want everyone to upgrade and then use your cool new app. If you gain nothing much from upgrades but the hassle of having to rebuild, retest etc then 'never' is quite a good upgrade rate. > Hummm... I suppose every case is different. It's a question of benefit and timescales. It doesn't take you 18 months to certify your desktop works and all the software on top is reliable, make the entire set up pass a third party security audit, pass the various credit card requirements, run performance analysis, track down regressions and then roll out live bit by bit along with any retraining along the way. Business timescales are long, and industrial timescales longer still. There are PDP-11 systems (or these days often emulators!) still running away in industrial plants doing what they've been doing for thirty odd years. The machinery they are tied to is often good for fifty plus years and depreciated accordingly, so there isn't a real urge to upgrade. The software folks have a very short term perspective - equalled perhaps by only a few industries such as fashion clothing. Imagine if the first PC you installed when you joined your first employer would be getting decomissioned about the time you retired ? Hard to picture but in the railroad world the chances are the first piece of track laid by some 18 year old newbie platelayer will finally get retired about the same time as the person who laid it. In civil engineering you often build things that you expect to last hundreds of years. Todays engineers are doing 'maintenance' (I guess you might consider it 'service pack 2' 8) on victorian structures that will then be good for just light maintenance for another century. This gives people a rather different sense of time and upgrading to software engineers. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 6:16 AM, Alan Cox wrote: >> > If you mean a "Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6" then nobody who knows anything >> > is going to give you an answer because it would be unlawful to do so in >> > the USA (and most countries) as it would involve material information >> > about un-announced products of a publically traded business. >> >> I didn't want so much to know when it will be released, as only if >> it's late, and by how much. > > If a product hasn't been announced and may or may not exist how can it be > meaningful to ask if it is "late". Well, the term is no boudt not quite appropriate, but you can figure out if the development period is stretching or shrinking and appreciate if it would make sense trying to meet the 2 year deadline proposed by Shuttleworth. When I first wrote about Distrowatch' s approximations, I thought it couldn't. Since you have a "little bit of experience" in development :) do you think that developers -- maybe mainly application developers? -- would benefit from this deadline for downstream releases(1)? Debian's "ready when it's ready" developers wouldn't appreciate much, I'm afraid, but some agree that they must work towards more (fixed? fixe, in french) development periods. (I don't care much about you commenting the rest of my post, but I'd be interested in getting your opinion on this.) (1) The weird thing here is that Ubuntu server is the upstream edition from Debian, which is an upstream distro itself. The case of Fedora/RHEL is different. Though it borrows from testing,the case of Ubuntu standard edition vs Debian is pretty much the opposite of the Fedora/RHEL. My feeling is that it imperative that the directives given here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision be followed very strictly. Sorry, for the digression. I'm thinking aloud about my next post on Corbet's article. >> Enterprise users don't *have to* upgrade but, if they get new >> hardware, I suppose they find it nice not to have to install too old >> an OS. > > Often the reverse - they have problems finding suitable hardware to keep > running their old OS, which is often what they want to do. This is one > reason virtualisation is so appealing - even if they need a new OS at the > bottom layer all their app layer stuff can run virtualised under the old > OS build. Dunno... I had no problem installing Fedora 11 and preupgrade worked wonderfully for 12. On my desktop :) For enterprises, upgrades are steeper but, someday, they have to be made. Isn't it, the more they wait, the hardest the upgrade? IOW, though virtualization eases the pain, is waiting to upgrade a sensible choice or just plain good old procrastination? Hummm... I suppose every case is different. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
> > If you mean a "Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6" then nobody who knows anything > > is going to give you an answer because it would be unlawful to do so in > > the USA (and most countries) as it would involve material information > > about un-announced products of a publically traded business. > > I didn't want so much to know when it will be released, as only if > it's late, and by how much. If a product hasn't been announced and may or may not exist how can it be meaningful to ask if it is "late". > Enterprise users don't *have to* upgrade but, if they get new > hardware, I suppose they find it nice not to have to install too old > an OS. Often the reverse - they have problems finding suitable hardware to keep running their old OS, which is often what they want to do. This is one reason virtualisation is so appealing - even if they need a new OS at the bottom layer all their app layer stuff can run virtualised under the old OS build. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Alan Cox wrote: >> Distrowatch says that Red Hat 6 will be about 2 years late because >> Fedora is too goddamned buggy. In which way will Fedora's bugs help >> Red Hat succeed better than Canonical or Novell? > > Red Hat 6 was released many many years ago 8) > > If you mean a "Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6" then nobody who knows anything > is going to give you an answer because it would be unlawful to do so in > the USA (and most countries) as it would involve material information > about un-announced products of a publically traded business. I didn't want so much to know when it will be released, as only if it's late, and by how much. Distrowatch pretends the releases went like this: 1. FC 0 -> RHEL 3 2. FC 3 -> RHEL 4 3. FC 6 -> RHEL 5 http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20100308 and that Fedora 9 should have been the base for RHEL 6. So, the release schedule would be every 18 moths whereas it would be already more than 18 months late for RHEL6. I just made bried research this and it seems: FC6 was released on 2006/10/24 http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=fedora and RHEL5 on March 14, 2007 http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/rhel5.html which is 4 months late. So, this explains, but only in part, why RHEL6 is not out yet. If it's released in June, as Distrowatch thinks, it will be 27 months between releases. RHEL4 was released on or around 15 February, 2005 http://www.talkingtree.com/blog/index.cfm/2005/2/15/RHEL4 which is 25 months. So, RHEL6 is not that late. It's just that, when you're accustomed to 6 months releases, it just seems like an awful lot of time. I suppose RHEL could join Canonical with their project of releasing together every 2 years. Comments? > Remember enterprise users generally hate new major releases due to the > cost hit they take in managing/testing/upgrading. These are people who > object to 'five years of support' as too short. Enterprise users don't *have to* upgrade but, if they get new hardware, I suppose they find it nice not to have to install too old an OS. BTW, to all, I found this article that I found very interesting: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/377930/51c110883cc4de9c/ It answered a lot of my questions on Fedora/Red Hat development. I intend to comment on it but spent the day reading all sort of documentation and tomorrow I might be busy. If anybody want to start a thread, I have no objection, of course, but I'll start mine, with a clear confession about being a Karl 3 look-alike, a Microsoft troll and a freeloader. You know, just to make sure that certain people do not waste their precious time explaining while their help is so badly needed somewhere else. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 13:10 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > I guess the thread is still alive, no one has mentioned the premise for > Godwin's Law right? Not that I have seen. However, Godwin's Law only says that the probability of mentioning you-know-who increases the longer a discussion goes on. It isn't part of Godwin's Law that a discussion is over when that happens, or that a discussion is still useful even if that hasn't happened, but it's a good measuring stick. Personally, I think any useful discussion is over when the ad hominem attacks start (of which the premise for Godwin's Law is only one) and that has clearly already happened here. The discussion is now about the people involved instead of the original subject; that was really the point of Godwin's Law. --Greg -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
--- On Mon, 3/15/10, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > From: Patrick O'Callaghan > Subject: Re: [OT] Deafening silence > To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org > Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 9:13 AM > On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 08:43 -0700, > Craig White wrote: > > On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 11:08 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan > wrote: > > > On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 08:16 -0700, Antonio > Olivares wrote: > > > > What is Goodwin's law? I only know > about the "Law of Sines" and the > > > > "Law of Cosines" :) > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law > > > > > > > I took his smiley to mean that he knew exactly what it > was but didn't > > see the need to go down that road. > > Since he misspelt it I thought he possibly didn't know what > it was. > > poc > > > -- That was it! I searched for Goodwin's Law and did not find anything relevant, Google told me are you looking for Godwin's Law and I did not click that link :( I did misspell it :(, It is OK!!! Thanks for the link. I guess the thread is still alive, no one has mentioned the premise for Godwin's Law right? Regards, Antonio -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 08:43 -0700, Craig White wrote: > On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 11:08 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 08:16 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > > > What is Goodwin's law? I only know about the "Law of Sines" and the > > > "Law of Cosines" :) > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law > > > > I took his smiley to mean that he knew exactly what it was but didn't > see the need to go down that road. Since he misspelt it I thought he possibly didn't know what it was. poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On 03/15/2010 11:38 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 08:16 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > >> What is Goodwin's law? I only know about the "Law of Sines" and the >> "Law of Cosines" :) >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law > > poc > Since Godwin's Law has been mentioned before its prerequisites have been satisfied it is no longer applicable. Jeff -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 11:08 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 08:16 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > > What is Goodwin's law? I only know about the "Law of Sines" and the > > "Law of Cosines" :) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law > I took his smiley to mean that he knew exactly what it was but didn't see the need to go down that road. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 08:16 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > What is Goodwin's law? I only know about the "Law of Sines" and the > "Law of Cosines" :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
> Please, someone, please trigger > Godwin's law with this thread... > It's so close... > > -- > [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r > 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 > What is Goodwin's law? I only know about the "Law of Sines" and the "Law of Cosines" :) Right on topic here, at Distrowatch there is a litte Fedora section about interesting & new features please check it out (*if and when you guys have a chance*) http://linuxers.org/article/some-cool-features-fedora-13-goddard Regards, Antonio oliva...@darkstar:~$ uname -a Linux darkstar 2.6.33-smp #2 SMP Sat Feb 27 20:12:16 CST 2010 i686 AMD Athlon(tm) Processor 2650e AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
> Distrowatch says that Red Hat 6 will be about 2 years late because > Fedora is too goddamned buggy. In which way will Fedora's bugs help > Red Hat succeed better than Canonical or Novell? Red Hat 6 was released many many years ago 8) If you mean a "Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6" then nobody who knows anything is going to give you an answer because it would be unlawful to do so in the USA (and most countries) as it would involve material information about un-announced products of a publically traded business. The only people who may know if and when there would be a RHEL6 can't tell you anything beyond what has been publically released by the company. Remember enterprise users generally hate new major releases due to the cost hit they take in managing/testing/upgrading. These are people who object to 'five years of support' as too short. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On 03/15/2010 07:10 AM, Roger wrote: > well I've found the selinux list to be a much better place to get help > >> with selinux stuff than this list but I would expect that if you had put >> drupal stuff into /var/www and made a soft link in /home to that >> directory you would have not had any issues with selinux at all. If you >> try to move the files now, I would suspect that they would have to be >> relabeled since they probably have home contexts and not html contexts >> (man restorecon) and that would have to be fixed. I think you can also >> set a boolean operator to tell it that you are serving html pages from >> users home directories but I'm not sure from your description that you >> actually have drupal in a users folder. >> >> Craig >> > >> I have working installations of Drupal 6.16 and 7 in /var/www/html and >> seLinux objects >> > latest is: > SELinux has denied httpd access to potentially mislabeled file(s) > (Eckankar.png). This means that SELinux will not allow httpd to use > these files. It is common for users to edit files in their home > directory or tmp directories and then move (mv) them to system > directories. The problem is that the files end up with the wrong file > context which confined applications are not allowed to access. > > but Drupal uses that image file so I don't take any notice. > > others are like: > SELinux has denied the sendmail access to potentially mislabeled files > /var/spool/clientmqueue. This means that SELinux will not allow httpd to > use these files. Many third party apps install html files in directories > that SELinux policy cannot predict. These directories have to be labeled > with a file context which httpd can access. > > I installed a new copy of Drupal in /home/user/directory and set > /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf to point to that directory but get denials. > > I have no understanding of contexts - its another thing I have to get to > grips with. > Thanks > Roger > SELinux is just about labeling. In a way permissions are just labels also. Ownership and Permission Map could be thought of as a label. Processes has a label of UID and files have labels of UID + Permission Map. With SELinux Process have a label (Security COntext) and files have a label (file Context). Then SELinux inforces rules about how process Security Context interact with File Security Context. This document explains what SELinux is trying to tell you. http://people.fedoraproject.org/~dwalsh/SELinux/Presentations/selinux_four_things.pdf If you sent me your AVC messages(SELinux Errors) I could help you get rid of them. ausearch -m avc -ts recent Is a command that tells the audit system to give you all of the recent SELinux messages from the audit system. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
Please, someone, please trigger Godwin's law with this thread... It's so close... -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
well I've found the selinux list to be a much better place to get help > with selinux stuff than this list but I would expect that if you had put > drupal stuff into /var/www and made a soft link in /home to that > directory you would have not had any issues with selinux at all. If you > try to move the files now, I would suspect that they would have to be > relabeled since they probably have home contexts and not html contexts > (man restorecon) and that would have to be fixed. I think you can also > set a boolean operator to tell it that you are serving html pages from > users home directories but I'm not sure from your description that you > actually have drupal in a users folder. > > Craig > I have working installations of Drupal 6.16 and 7 in /var/www/html and > seLinux objects latest is: SELinux has denied httpd access to potentially mislabeled file(s) (Eckankar.png). This means that SELinux will not allow httpd to use these files. It is common for users to edit files in their home directory or tmp directories and then move (mv) them to system directories. The problem is that the files end up with the wrong file context which confined applications are not allowed to access. but Drupal uses that image file so I don't take any notice. others are like: SELinux has denied the sendmail access to potentially mislabeled files /var/spool/clientmqueue. This means that SELinux will not allow httpd to use these files. Many third party apps install html files in directories that SELinux policy cannot predict. These directories have to be labeled with a file context which httpd can access. I installed a new copy of Drupal in /home/user/directory and set /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf to point to that directory but get denials. I have no understanding of contexts - its another thing I have to get to grips with. Thanks Roger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: > On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote: > The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly have > been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really > didn't *matter*. would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting. I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and it just got picked up today... https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193 Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad. Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Roger wrote: > Fedora is experimental, live with it, like it, or not! All others, join Ubuntu! You think it's doing better while White keeps on repeating that it's the same software all over the place? You think that clipboards and file managers work better in Ubuntu? You think it resists better to Flash hacks? You do? Ok. Let's say, even though it boots my computer to a black screen. Shuttleworth has sworn he'll never ask a cent from desktop users. He's after the server market, just as Red Hat. Ubuntu is very far behind, of course, but they did get the contract for La Gendramerie française whereas Mandriva would have been a more likely candidate. It certainly is a nice practice for security. You go at Ubuntu.com and it's cloud, cloud, cloud, all over the place. Red Hat is in... virtualization. Distrowatch says that Red Hat 6 will be about 2 years late because Fedora is too goddamned buggy. In which way will Fedora's bugs help Red Hat succeed better than Canonical or Novell? Listen, you might answer if you feel like, but I might not reply. It seems that there are two groups here. Some people agree with me. They post a message or two and they vanish. Not much else to say when the thread is turned into a brawl by certain people. Some people might also agree but are not interested to get involved in said brawl in the first place. It's very efficient opinion control. Other people disagree... but they address no issue. I asked if Distrowatch's claims were right. I didn't receive a single answer! They keep on repeating that everybody should fill reports on bugs that are years old on essential software and that developers can't have possibly missed. Then, it's ad hominem attacks: I'm a Microsoft troll. The opposite camp are just freeloaders benefiting from good developers' work and complaining all the time. And so one, you know, like digressions on car differentials, that last forever. So, it's certainly no use to try having discussions on the development model here. I suppose the way the group is now satisfies Red Hat (they have a fair number, if not a majority of their people on the Fedora board.) So, I won't insist. We'll see what happens in 5 years from now. Let's be "satisfied" and watch the train go by. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On 03/14/2010 10:37 PM, Roger wrote: > On 03/14/2010 09:58 AM, Craig White wrote: > >> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 17:21 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote: >> >> >>> Honestly, I never thought that I'd find this kind of communist planned >>> economy reasoning within the advocates of a company listed on the >>> NYSE. Of course, I'm not a geek, not even a suit, so I know nothing. >>> >>> > I just use Fedora, I fiddle with it, break it, fix it, and it just works > well for my meagre desires. Scribus, Blender, OO.org, audacity, playing > CD's making DVD's, Making slide shows, Firefox and Thunderbird, Gimp, > FTP, Drupal, all just work, no hassles, no problems and mine is a basic, > generic, cobbled together computer which I built, as were all my other > computers. > > If I had a gripe it would be SeLinux does not have intelligence to know > that I can use Drupal in a /home/directory while remaining secure but > that's a configuration problem. I live with it because I don't know how > to fix, after trying. > > I don't care that things are not perfect as long as it provides services > that I can understand or explore and allows me to get the jobs done. > What I like a lot is that I have permission to fiddle, to experiment, to > learn. That and I am part of a luvlist of people who will help. > > I upgrade apps when they arrive and don't seem to have the problems that > others have with upgrades, I have a working copy of my home directory in > fedora 12 86x64, have no qualms about copying my stuff back and forth. > > I don't care about Red Hat Inc. Rants aren't even humorous any more. > > Fedora is experimental, live with it, like it, or not!. I like Fedora. > > One thing I have learned from watching the types of problems users > experience. It seems to me that the computer may be as much, if not more > to blame than the operating system. > Anyway that's my seriously off topic $5.50c worth. > Roger > > If you want to have SELInux allow apache to read something in the homedir you need to set it's label correctly. Probably httpd_sys_content_t. man httpd_selinux explains how to do this. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 13:37 +1100, Roger wrote: > On 03/14/2010 09:58 AM, Craig White wrote: > > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 17:21 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote: > > > >> Honestly, I never thought that I'd find this kind of communist planned > >> economy reasoning within the advocates of a company listed on the > >> NYSE. Of course, I'm not a geek, not even a suit, so I know nothing. > >> > > I just use Fedora, I fiddle with it, break it, fix it, and it just works > well for my meagre desires. Scribus, Blender, OO.org, audacity, playing > CD's making DVD's, Making slide shows, Firefox and Thunderbird, Gimp, > FTP, Drupal, all just work, no hassles, no problems and mine is a basic, > generic, cobbled together computer which I built, as were all my other > computers. > > If I had a gripe it would be SeLinux does not have intelligence to know > that I can use Drupal in a /home/directory while remaining secure but > that's a configuration problem. I live with it because I don't know how > to fix, after trying. > > I don't care that things are not perfect as long as it provides services > that I can understand or explore and allows me to get the jobs done. > What I like a lot is that I have permission to fiddle, to experiment, to > learn. That and I am part of a luvlist of people who will help. > > I upgrade apps when they arrive and don't seem to have the problems that > others have with upgrades, I have a working copy of my home directory in > fedora 12 86x64, have no qualms about copying my stuff back and forth. > > I don't care about Red Hat Inc. Rants aren't even humorous any more. > > Fedora is experimental, live with it, like it, or not!. I like Fedora. > > One thing I have learned from watching the types of problems users > experience. It seems to me that the computer may be as much, if not more > to blame than the operating system. > Anyway that's my seriously off topic $5.50c worth. > Roger well I've found the selinux list to be a much better place to get help with selinux stuff than this list but I would expect that if you had put drupal stuff into /var/www and made a soft link in /home to that directory you would have not had any issues with selinux at all. If you try to move the files now, I would suspect that they would have to be relabeled since they probably have home contexts and not html contexts (man restorecon) and that would have to be fixed. I think you can also set a boolean operator to tell it that you are serving html pages from users home directories but I'm not sure from your description that you actually have drupal in a users folder. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On 03/14/2010 09:58 AM, Craig White wrote: > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 17:21 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote: > >> Honestly, I never thought that I'd find this kind of communist planned >> economy reasoning within the advocates of a company listed on the >> NYSE. Of course, I'm not a geek, not even a suit, so I know nothing. >> I just use Fedora, I fiddle with it, break it, fix it, and it just works well for my meagre desires. Scribus, Blender, OO.org, audacity, playing CD's making DVD's, Making slide shows, Firefox and Thunderbird, Gimp, FTP, Drupal, all just work, no hassles, no problems and mine is a basic, generic, cobbled together computer which I built, as were all my other computers. If I had a gripe it would be SeLinux does not have intelligence to know that I can use Drupal in a /home/directory while remaining secure but that's a configuration problem. I live with it because I don't know how to fix, after trying. I don't care that things are not perfect as long as it provides services that I can understand or explore and allows me to get the jobs done. What I like a lot is that I have permission to fiddle, to experiment, to learn. That and I am part of a luvlist of people who will help. I upgrade apps when they arrive and don't seem to have the problems that others have with upgrades, I have a working copy of my home directory in fedora 12 86x64, have no qualms about copying my stuff back and forth. I don't care about Red Hat Inc. Rants aren't even humorous any more. Fedora is experimental, live with it, like it, or not!. I like Fedora. One thing I have learned from watching the types of problems users experience. It seems to me that the computer may be as much, if not more to blame than the operating system. Anyway that's my seriously off topic $5.50c worth. Roger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 15:31 -0400, Marcel Rieux wrote: > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Matthew Saltzman wrote: > > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 23:56 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote: > >> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White > >> wrote: > >> > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: > >> >> > >> >> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the > >> >> attitude > >> >> that says we are is the *problem*. > >> > > >> > #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant. > >> > >> Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush > >> diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat > >> is on NASDAQ. > > > > No, they started on NASDAQ, but now (as of 12/12/06) they are on NYSE. > > > > http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4955650991.html > > Thanks for the info. Ihad noticed that teh ticker name had changed > from RHAATto RHT but not that RHhad switched to the NYSE:that's not > where your eyes go on the page at finance.yahoo.com. > > I don't understand this paragraph, though: > > "In addition, businesses must now expense their stock options. Thus, > if you can better estimate the value of your stock options, you can > lower your option expenses. While options aren't as significant a > factor as they were in the dot com days in most companies' bottom > lines, they still are no small matter in determining many technology > companies' bottom lines" > > I thought that stock options were no expense for companies, that they > only had to print them and give them away... thus diluting the > investors' actions value, of course. OTOH, anf that's the good part, > since they count as expense for accounting, they reduce the profits, > hence taxes. > > So, I don't understand. Well, that's now *really* OT for this list. Suffice it to say that tax laws are highly fluid from year to year, and you should consult a tax lawyer if you have questions that affect your own returns. -- Matthew Saltzman Clemson University Math Sciences mjs AT clemson DOT edu http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Matthew Saltzman wrote: > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 23:56 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White wrote: >> > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: >> >> >> >> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the >> >> attitude >> >> that says we are is the *problem*. >> > >> > #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant. >> >> Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush >> diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat >> is on NASDAQ. > > No, they started on NASDAQ, but now (as of 12/12/06) they are on NYSE. > > http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4955650991.html Thanks for the info. I had noticed that teh ticker name had changed from RHAAT to RHT but not that RH had switched to the NYSE: that's not where your eyes go on the page at finance.yahoo.com. I don't understand this paragraph, though: "In addition, businesses must now expense their stock options. Thus, if you can better estimate the value of your stock options, you can lower your option expenses. While options aren't as significant a factor as they were in the dot com days in most companies' bottom lines, they still are no small matter in determining many technology companies' bottom lines" I thought that stock options were no expense for companies, that they only had to print them and give them away... thus diluting the investors' actions value, of course. OTOH, anf that's the good part, since they count as expense for accounting, they reduce the profits, hence taxes. So, I don't understand. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 23:56 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote: > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White wrote: > > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: > >> > >> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the > >> attitude > >> that says we are is the *problem*. > > > > #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant. > > Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush > diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat > is on NASDAQ. No, they started on NASDAQ, but now (as of 12/12/06) they are on NYSE. http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4955650991.html -- Matthew Saltzman Clemson University Math Sciences mjs AT clemson DOT edu http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Russell Miller wrote: > On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote: > What about selinux? At the SCALE conference, Karsten Wade gave the keynote > and acknowledged that selinux was handled badly, and also acknowledged that it > was a huge PR problem - people are still reflexively turning it off because of > the damage the Fedora project did to its reputation. I can't even turn it on > at my workplace because no one trusts it - and FEDORA did that! Fedora, and > Red Hat. > > And it's not getting any better, at least from my experience. I don't believe that I have problems with SELinux on my desktop computer or, at least, I do not receive messages telling me so. OTOH, I know that Klipper worked perfectly in KDE3 when I was using it in Knoppix, for instance. Then, I thought it was because KDE was at version 4.0. But now? Now I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with address space layout randomization. Why does a clipboard utllity suddenly stops functioning and nobody raises the matter? When I do, I get no answer, when I repeat my question, some people say I always come back to the same topics. But nobody dares say they have found out a clipboard utility that works perfectly, even decently. Brawlers will throw at you the first thing that comes to their mind. They'll say "KDE is not Fedora's default desktop environment. Why don't you use Glipper instead?" Of course, they know that the problem with Glipper is that, if you have more than one screenful of entries and you want to select the second one, the entries will slowly unfold from the last one to the first ones. The silly thingy has been no use for years. Developers never noticed? Developers never noticed that ALL file mangers, all the graphics ones, at least, have bugs? We're talking about very basic stuff, here. > We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the attitude > that says we are is the *problem*. Yep, this is a good summary. Attitude is the problem. Linux development is like a hord of Gauls facing the structured army of the Romans. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White wrote: > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: >> >> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the >> attitude >> that says we are is the *problem*. > > #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant. Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat is on NASDAQ. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 16:38 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: > On Saturday 13 March 2010 03:47:52 pm Craig White wrote: > I am not a typical user. I have been a sysadmin for 12 years. I have a > general idea of how a good bug reporting and triaging system should work. > When I submitted a bug that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt was a bug and > got told it wasn't, I wasn't very happy. When I made my case that, yes, it > is > a bug, and got told that my report wasn't valid because I put it in the wrong > place, I wasn't very happy either. I understand that it's run by volunteers > but at some point even volunteers should be able to move a bug from one > package to another, it takes the same amount of time as closing it. not all 'packagers' have the same workload or attitude and often, the quality and relevance of the bug report probably has a large impact on how it is dealt with. I hope that your conclusions weren't based upon a single bad experience bug reporting. I can assure you that I have made probably 50 reports, some of them mostly ignored, some of them dismissed, and many of them acted upon and resolved. Even the best batters in baseball don't get a hit 4 our 10 times at the plate. > > > There are people who light candles and people who curse the darkness. > > > Yes, and there are people who light candles and have them blown out > repeatedly. After a certain amount of time, the candles stop getting lit. > > > Marcel is like a broken record - rehashing the same things he groused > > about last week as if yet another 2000 words on the same topics is going > > to be any less of a waste of electrons this week. But I didn't say that > > he was irrelevant or that everything he said was irrelevant. His rants > > are irrelevant. > > > I see, I somehow stuck myself in the middle of a flame war. Fair enough. I > follow the list in a middling manner and only read things that pop out at me. don't leap to conclusions. There's no flame war but I keep hoping that he would recognize that ranting to the list is entirely unproductive and just gets his name added to more and more 'kill' lists. His instincts for identifying problems are poor, his ability to articulate the problems are average and his understanding of the open source world seems to be non-existent. > > Yes, Fedora is imperfect... it's also an imperfect world. If he or > > anyone else needs help with a specific issue, they are almost always > > handled expeditiously. But if he or someone else wants to draw big > > picture issues, they should at least understand something about open > > source development, software packaging, the origins, the process, etc. > > Otherwise, they are irrelevant. > > > Never in my case. Make of it what you will. > > But the person who said "if you're so unsatisfied with fedora find another > one > you like" may have a point after all. I'm not unsatisfied with Fedora, but > who > knows, maybe ubuntu, etc., has a better community. Shrug. It's a futile > conversation anyway. My lone voice isn't going to change anything. it wasn't me that said that but I invite anyone and everyone to check out other Linux distributions to see what their communities and their packaging/integration/etc. is like. I do that myself. As for the community, I suppose that depends upon what your expectations are from the community as to whether it is any better or worse. But they all have places to report bugs and places to request help and when you confuse the community mail list with a bug reporting tool, you're going to encounter push back at any community. If you use the community mail list for a soap box to rant about the state of Linux in general, it's likely going to be poorly received even if you actually know what you are talking about. That's what blogs are for. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Saturday 13 March 2010 03:47:52 pm Craig White wrote: > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: > > We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the > > attitude > > that says we are is the *problem*. > > > #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant. > That's true. But I don't recall you using the pronoun "You" to refer to Red Hat or the NYSE. But I guess that's not really relevant either. > Relevance is lending a hand to make things better. Bug reporting, > submitting better documentation, helping others solve problems. I'm > sorry that you had problems submitting bug reports but I can see that a > typical user will have difficulty identifying which software is the > problem and how to make a bug report but try reporting a bug to Apple or > Microsoft or any other software company and tell me how well you make > out. The fact is that open source software actually permits the users > entry/access to the process and problem resolution paths but cannot > ensure that the user actually understands his role. > I am not a typical user. I have been a sysadmin for 12 years. I have a general idea of how a good bug reporting and triaging system should work. When I submitted a bug that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt was a bug and got told it wasn't, I wasn't very happy. When I made my case that, yes, it is a bug, and got told that my report wasn't valid because I put it in the wrong place, I wasn't very happy either. I understand that it's run by volunteers but at some point even volunteers should be able to move a bug from one package to another, it takes the same amount of time as closing it. > There are people who light candles and people who curse the darkness. > Yes, and there are people who light candles and have them blown out repeatedly. After a certain amount of time, the candles stop getting lit. > Marcel is like a broken record - rehashing the same things he groused > about last week as if yet another 2000 words on the same topics is going > to be any less of a waste of electrons this week. But I didn't say that > he was irrelevant or that everything he said was irrelevant. His rants > are irrelevant. > I see, I somehow stuck myself in the middle of a flame war. Fair enough. I follow the list in a middling manner and only read things that pop out at me. > Yes, Fedora is imperfect... it's also an imperfect world. If he or > anyone else needs help with a specific issue, they are almost always > handled expeditiously. But if he or someone else wants to draw big > picture issues, they should at least understand something about open > source development, software packaging, the origins, the process, etc. > Otherwise, they are irrelevant. > Never in my case. Make of it what you will. But the person who said "if you're so unsatisfied with fedora find another one you like" may have a point after all. I'm not unsatisfied with Fedora, but who knows, maybe ubuntu, etc., has a better community. Shrug. It's a futile conversation anyway. My lone voice isn't going to change anything. --Russell > Craig -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote: > > We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the > attitude > that says we are is the *problem*. #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant. #2 - this is a community based distribution and the software, packaging, etc. is done by people who volunteer and the few people who are paid but they cannot do it all. Most of the software is actually developed by others, not related to Fedora, Red Hat or affiliated in any way. #3 - If your expectation is to get mature, supported software, that is what Red Hat Enterprise Linux (and there are others out there) is all about. Fedora clearly is 'leading edge' and not mature, not supported and not sold. Relevance is lending a hand to make things better. Bug reporting, submitting better documentation, helping others solve problems. I'm sorry that you had problems submitting bug reports but I can see that a typical user will have difficulty identifying which software is the problem and how to make a bug report but try reporting a bug to Apple or Microsoft or any other software company and tell me how well you make out. The fact is that open source software actually permits the users entry/access to the process and problem resolution paths but cannot ensure that the user actually understands his role. There are people who light candles and people who curse the darkness. Marcel is like a broken record - rehashing the same things he groused about last week as if yet another 2000 words on the same topics is going to be any less of a waste of electrons this week. But I didn't say that he was irrelevant or that everything he said was irrelevant. His rants are irrelevant. Yes, Fedora is imperfect... it's also an imperfect world. If he or anyone else needs help with a specific issue, they are almost always handled expeditiously. But if he or someone else wants to draw big picture issues, they should at least understand something about open source development, software packaging, the origins, the process, etc. Otherwise, they are irrelevant. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote: > you are completely irrelevant... not that I have any ability to change > that and I surely respect your right, as a Fedora user to post on the > list. > > In the future, would you please mark your irrelevant rantings as OT (off > topic)? > > You really don't want to know what I think when I read this. > > Craig The section that you posted was a little out of line, Craig, granted. However. Your response is also indicative of the exact problem he's referring to! The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly have been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really didn't *matter*. For example, pulseaudio. It was introduced in a state that was pretty much unusable for me. Sound only started working when I turned it off. I filed a bug report. I supplied all the info requested. As I remember, might as well have been a black hole. Someone insisted it wasn't even a bug. I responded, yes, it was. They said I didn't put it in the right place. I responded, then move it to the right place instead of closing it. Someone said "yeah, you're probably right, but too bad." Bug closed. Got fixed on its own accord at some point in the future. Until then I just disabled pulseaudio. What about selinux? At the SCALE conference, Karsten Wade gave the keynote and acknowledged that selinux was handled badly, and also acknowledged that it was a huge PR problem - people are still reflexively turning it off because of the damage the Fedora project did to its reputation. I can't even turn it on at my workplace because no one trusts it - and FEDORA did that! Fedora, and Red Hat. And it's not getting any better, at least from my experience. We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the attitude that says we are is the *problem*. --Russell -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 17:21 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote: > Honestly, I never thought that I'd find this kind of communist planned > economy reasoning within the advocates of a company listed on the > NYSE. Of course, I'm not a geek, not even a suit, so I know nothing. > But, if you really get infuriated reading this, maybe you should > wonder if there's not some truth to my opinion. you are completely irrelevant... not that I have any ability to change that and I surely respect your right, as a Fedora user to post on the list. In the future, would you please mark your irrelevant rantings as OT (off topic)? You really don't want to know what I think when I read this. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
