Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2018-03-06 at 02:30 +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> But perhaps it is a good idea to put all user-relevant information in
> that very first welcome message from this list after subscribing to it:

Naturally that info should be there, but don't count on people actually
reading it. I moderate the Evolution list where the intro text asks
people to mention their Evolution version when asking questions. Guess
how often I still have to remind posters to do this ...

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2018-03-06 at 01:45 +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 00:05:05 +
> Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 2018-03-05 at 21:39 +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:57:03 -0500
> > > Matthew Miller  wrote:
> > >   
> > > > On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:  
> > > > > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never
> > > > > had in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the
> > > > > Archives page or more usefully to the general list information
> > > > > page, which is what one would expect to see labelled as "users
> > > > > mailing list" rather than the mailto: link which is actually
> > > > > there.
> > > > 
> > > > Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.  
> > > 
> > > I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second time
> > > prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary as bad
> > > weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
> > > nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
> > > again, I won't complain ..  
> > 
> > Once again: I'm asking for a link *which is NOT in the headers*.
> 
> I'm getting curious:
> I have that one in the message I'm answering now:
> 
> 
> 
> Which link would you like to have in an email from this list?

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/users.lists.fedoraproject.org/

which gives pointers to what you need to know but is not referenced in
any of the current headers.

I had to struggle even to find that page, and managed to track it down
by looking at the link in an old list message before the footer was
changed (the link of course pointed to an old version, but luckily
someone had left breadcrumbs to the new one).

poc

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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Ed Greshko]

On 03/06/18 12:10, Tim wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-03-06 at 08:55 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> do you consider the footer
>>
>> users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
>>
>> equally "unnecessary as bad weather"?
> An unsubscribe address, if a robot responds it in a comprehensible
> manner, can be a useful thing.

OK.  Why are you answer a question specifically directed at, and in response to,
something Wolfgang had written?  And why have you taken it out of context?

The context being that Wolfgang suggested that it is unnecessary to have a link 
to
the archives in the footer since that link appears in the headers.  Thus, my 
question
to him was, if the link to the archives is unnecessary because of what is in the
headers then doesn't it follow that the current footer contents are also
unnecessary?  It had zero to do with a question about the usefulness of what is
currently in the footer.

> I really do not know what's so hard about setting the list to put just
> *one* sane thing in the footer:  A web address for a landing page
> specific to this mailing list.  Let that page have a description of the
> list purpose, links to participation guidelines, links to FAQs, links
> to archives, links to managing your subscription, etc.
>
> Why is that so hard to do?

I don't know if it is easy or hard to do.  I'm not the list admin.  I would not 
be
the one to create and maintain the "landing page".  

> Why is that so hard to understand?
>
Of course you're offering a different "solution".  It seems to me the only 
suggested
change to the "footer", until now, has been the addition of a link to the 
archives.

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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Tim]

On Tue, 2018-03-06 at 08:55 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> do you consider the footer
> 
> users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> equally "unnecessary as bad weather"?

An unsubscribe address, if a robot responds it in a comprehensible
manner, can be a useful thing.

The mailing list address is virtually pointless.  That address is in
the headers that all mail clients show by default (to, from, subject,
date), it's the one you emailed to, it's the address the mail came
from, it's not some obscure thing buried within 100 lines of hidden
headers.  If you can't send a post to the list without use of that
address printed in the email, you don't deserve to own a computer.

But I've yet to see a mail client that will parse the headers and give
a useful summary of mailing list details that it finds in there.  All
mail clients that I've seen give you the option to hide all the
headers, or show ALL the headers.  That can include masses of headers. 
The message I'm replying to, now, had 127 lines.  I had to scroll half
way down to find these special list headers.

I really do not know what's so hard about setting the list to put just
*one* sane thing in the footer:  A web address for a landing page
specific to this mailing list.  Let that page have a description of the
list purpose, links to participation guidelines, links to FAQs, links
to archives, links to managing your subscription, etc.

Why is that so hard to do?
Why is that so hard to understand?

-- 
 
[tim@localhost ~] -rsvp
Linux 4.13.16-100.fc25.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Nov 27 19:52:46 UTC 2017 x86_64
 
Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is
no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see the messages
posted to the mailing list.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 08:55:09 +0800
Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On 03/06/18 04:39, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> > I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second time
> > prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary as bad
> > weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
> > nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
> > again, I won't complain ..  
> 
> Since the headers
> 
> List-Post: 
> List-Unsubscribe: 
> 
> exist in each message do you consider the footer
> 
> users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> equally "unnecessary as bad weather"?

And yes: the "unnecessary as bad weather" might have been over the top. 

Sorry!
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Ed Greshko]

On 03/06/18 09:30, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 08:55:09 +0800
> Ed Greshko  wrote:
>
>> On 03/06/18 04:39, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second
>>> time prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary
>>> as bad weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
>>> nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
>>> again, I won't complain ..  
>> Since the headers
>>
>> List-Post: 
>> List-Unsubscribe: 
>>
>> exist in each message do you consider the footer
>>
>> users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
>>
>> equally "unnecessary as bad weather"?
> No. But if we're already at it: A reminder in the footer to the mail
> headers might be even more useful. Because there are a few more than
> the mentioned two ..

I doubt it, for several reasons.

1.  Many people seem to miss or ignore the footer.  Asking, "how do I 
unsubscribe".
2.  Why point users to email headers and make them jump through additional 
hoops? 
Why invite the inevitable question "How to I display headers on "X" email 
client?"?
3.  Displaying the headers in many email clients will show linksbut they 
won't be
clickable.  Why force people to cut and paste?

>
> Really: I do not care much about what to put into the footer or not. 

Could have fooled me.  :-)

>
> But perhaps it is a good idea to put all user-relevant information in
> that very first welcome message from this list after subscribing to it:
> I just had a look at the one I got: it was very short, and maybe one
> could place a friendly reminder into that welcome message to the mail
> headers sent out with each new message from this list. And maybe even a
> friendly reminder to ask on this list *after* having put some
> reasonable effort to find a solution by oneself.
> Maybe a link to this page:
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

There once was a link to the Fedora Mailing List Guidelines which did (I've not
looked at it in a long time) have a section on "how to ask good questions" and 
"what
to do before posting".   See reason #1 above for how well that worked out.  :-)





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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 08:55:09 +0800
Ed Greshko  wrote:

> On 03/06/18 04:39, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> > I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second
> > time prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary
> > as bad weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
> > nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
> > again, I won't complain ..  
> 
> Since the headers
> 
> List-Post: 
> List-Unsubscribe: 
> 
> exist in each message do you consider the footer
> 
> users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> equally "unnecessary as bad weather"?

No. But if we're already at it: A reminder in the footer to the mail
headers might be even more useful. Because there are a few more than
the mentioned two ..

Really: I do not care much about what to put into the footer or not. 

But perhaps it is a good idea to put all user-relevant information in
that very first welcome message from this list after subscribing to it:
I just had a look at the one I got: it was very short, and maybe one
could place a friendly reminder into that welcome message to the mail
headers sent out with each new message from this list. And maybe even a
friendly reminder to ask on this list *after* having put some
reasonable effort to find a solution by oneself.
Maybe a link to this page:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Regards
-- 
Wolfgang Pfeiffer
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Ed Greshko]

On 03/06/18 04:39, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second time
> prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary as bad
> weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
> nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
> again, I won't complain ..

Since the headers

List-Post: 
List-Unsubscribe: 

exist in each message do you consider the footer

users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org

equally "unnecessary as bad weather"?


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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 00:05:05 +
Patrick O'Callaghan  wrote:

> On Mon, 2018-03-05 at 21:39 +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> > On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:57:03 -0500
> > Matthew Miller  wrote:
> >   
> > > On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:  
> > > > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never
> > > > had in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the
> > > > Archives page or more usefully to the general list information
> > > > page, which is what one would expect to see labelled as "users
> > > > mailing list" rather than the mailto: link which is actually
> > > > there.
> > > 
> > > Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.  
> > 
> > I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second time
> > prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary as bad
> > weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
> > nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
> > again, I won't complain ..  
> 
> Once again: I'm asking for a link *which is NOT in the headers*.

I'm getting curious:
I have that one in the message I'm answering now:



Which link would you like to have in an email from this list?

Regards

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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Ed Greshko]

On 03/06/18 08:05, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-03-05 at 21:39 +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:57:03 -0500
>> Matthew Miller  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never
 had in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the
 Archives page or more usefully to the general list information
 page, which is what one would expect to see labelled as "users
 mailing list" rather than the mailto: link which is actually
 there.  
>>> Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.
>> I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second time
>> prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary as bad
>> weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
>> nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
>> again, I won't complain ..
> Once again: I'm asking for a link *which is NOT in the headers*.

Well 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/   
*is*
actually in the heads.  BUT, as you pointed out, when displayed in some mailer
programs it isn't clickable AND your average user may not even think of looking 
there.


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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2018-03-05 at 21:39 +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:57:03 -0500
> Matthew Miller  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never
> > > had in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the
> > > Archives page or more usefully to the general list information
> > > page, which is what one would expect to see labelled as "users
> > > mailing list" rather than the mailto: link which is actually
> > > there.  
> > 
> > Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.
> 
> I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second time
> prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary as bad
> weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
> nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
> again, I won't complain ..

Once again: I'm asking for a link *which is NOT in the headers*.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:57:03 -0500
Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never
> > had in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the
> > Archives page or more usefully to the general list information
> > page, which is what one would expect to see labelled as "users
> > mailing list" rather than the mailto: link which is actually
> > there.  
> 
> Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.

I don't have a problem if you put the link to the archives a second time
prominently into some auto-generated list footer. Unnecessary as bad
weather, I believe, because are there really MUA's out there
nowadays, without the capability to display the mail-headers? But
again, I won't complain ..

But what I really would like to discuss here: Could we please have a
prominent display in the footer *and* in the mail archive entrance page
of a message that tells people to please use a damned search engine
before posting to this list?

Again and again I'm seeing seemingly extremely intelligent people
asking questions so stupid that sometimes I have to hold back myself
from answering: "no, it's kaput: pull the plug, find a girl-friend, and
never touch some machine again. Ever." - No, I won't do that, but
sometimes it's really hard to resist.

I mean: it's 2018, everyone uses search to find houses, cars, TV and
even friends on the Internets with their preferred search engine, but
no, when it comes to fix software we get free help without any effort
from the guys on the Fedora list who don't have a life and wait and
crave  for bums and retards asking stupid questions.

What's going on? Are computer users just dumber today than, let's say,
10 or 15 years ago? Sometimes I think they're actually just more lazy.
But I really don't know. 

What did I miss?

TIA, and Regards
-- 
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2018-03-04 at 18:58 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 05:23:44PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > > If you can influence that, thanks.
> > > 
> > > I'll see what I can do. I can't see anything in the mailing list config
> > > interface off hand.
> > 
> > If it's Mailman the change is quite simple.
> 
> It is in mailman 2, but I'm not seeing an option in the Postorius
> config interface.

I'm not familiar with Postorius, but in fact I was mistaken. The
standard Mailman admin interface doesn't include this. It may have to
be set by the list server admin. I see the Test list has exactly the
same problem.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 05:23:44PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > If you can influence that, thanks.
> > I'll see what I can do. I can't see anything in the mailing list config
> > interface off hand.
> If it's Mailman the change is quite simple.

It is in mailman 2, but I'm not seeing an option in the Postorius
config interface.

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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2018-03-04 at 12:06 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 02:46:12PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.
> > 
> > If you can influence that, thanks.
> 
> I'll see what I can do. I can't see anything in the mailing list config
> interface off hand.

If it's Mailman the change is quite simple.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 02:46:12PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.
> If you can influence that, thanks.

I'll see what I can do. I can't see anything in the mailing list config
interface off hand.

-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Ed Greshko]

On 03/04/18 22:46, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-03-04 at 08:57 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>> talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
>>> in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
>>> or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
>>> one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
>>> the mailto: link which is actually there.
>> Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.
> If you can influence that, thanks.
>
Totally agree.  Even though I have the link to the archives bookmarked, I would
appreciate that link at the bottom of each message.  And that isn't solely 
based on
my forgetting where the bookmark is.  Only 90% of the reason.  :-)

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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2018-03-04 at 08:57 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> > in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> > or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> > one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> > the mailto: link which is actually there.
> 
> Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.

If you can influence that, thanks.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 04:21:43PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> the mailto: link which is actually there.

Putting that in the standard list message footer seems reasonable.

-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 11:08 -0800, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > So a hidden link which is not clickable. However I wasn't in fact
> > talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> > in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> > or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> > one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> > the mailto: link which is actually there.
> 
> They are all in the headers:
> 
> List-Id: Community support for Fedora users 
> Archived-At:
> 
> List-Archive:
> 
> List-Help: 
> List-Post: 
> List-Subscribe: 
> List-Unsubscribe: 
> 
> Depending on your mail client it may or may not show them somehow
> outside that.

Those are RFC2368-compliant headers which do not include the list info
page I mentioned. Since the previous system did include that in the
standard footer (which was thus visible to *every* mail client) I'm
wondering why it was removed. Instead there is a redundant URL for
posting to the list, which merely repeats information that's already in
the To: header.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Tim]

On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 11:08 -0800, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> They are all in the headers:
>
> List-Id: Community support for Fedora users 
> Archived-At: 
> 
> List-Archive: 
> 
> ...[snip]...
> 
> Depending on your mail client it may or may not show them somehow
> outside that.

Essentially, hidden, and unusable to a lot of people.  Since they're
not visible, most people won't even know about them to go looking for
them, there.  Many people will not be able to do anything with them,
even if they can find them.

Don't expect anything other than software to make use of mail headers. 
The mail headers are for programs to use, not people.

And it doesn't save any bandwidth by taking things out of the message
body and stuffing them into the header.  At the very least, there ought
to be one web address in the message footer that lets a person manage
their mail subscription (an address that takes them to a page where
they can subscribe, access the archives, etc., like the messages used
to have).

-- 
 
[tim@localhost ~] -rsvp
Linux 4.13.16-100.fc25.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Nov 27 19:52:46 UTC 2017 x86_64
 
Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is
no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see the messages
posted to the mailing list.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Kevin Fenzi]

On 03/02/2018 08:21 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 10:49 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:00:14PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>> Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
>>> list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
>>> specifically a HK problem but still).
>>
>>
>> They do -- it's just in the header. For example:
>>
>> Archived-At: 
>> 
>>
>> This is one of the nice things about the new setup, for what it's
>> worth. The old archiver did not have persistent links to individual
>> messages. (If we had to remove one from the archive for privacy law or
>> other legal reasons, _all newer messages that month_ shifted in number,
>> making any links to them wrong.) This link is persistent and generated
>> when the mail is sent.
> 
> So a hidden link which is not clickable. However I wasn't in fact
> talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
> in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
> or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
> one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
> the mailto: link which is actually there.

They are all in the headers:

List-Id: Community support for Fedora users 
Archived-At:

List-Archive:

List-Help: 
List-Post: 
List-Subscribe: 
List-Unsubscribe: 

Depending on your mail client it may or may not show them somehow
outside that.

kevin



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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 10:49 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:00:14PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
> > list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
> > specifically a HK problem but still).
> 
> 
> They do -- it's just in the header. For example:
> 
> Archived-At: 
> 
> 
> This is one of the nice things about the new setup, for what it's
> worth. The old archiver did not have persistent links to individual
> messages. (If we had to remove one from the archive for privacy law or
> other legal reasons, _all newer messages that month_ shifted in number,
> making any links to them wrong.) This link is persistent and generated
> when the mail is sent.

So a hidden link which is not clickable. However I wasn't in fact
talking about a link to the individual message, which IIRC we never had
in the old version either. I mean a static pointer to the Archives page
or more usefully to the general list information page, which is what
one would expect to see labelled as "users mailing list" rather than
the mailto: link which is actually there.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:00:14PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
> list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
> specifically a HK problem but still).


They do -- it's just in the header. For example:

Archived-At: 


This is one of the nice things about the new setup, for what it's
worth. The old archiver did not have persistent links to individual
messages. (If we had to remove one from the archive for privacy law or
other legal reasons, _all newer messages that month_ shifted in number,
making any links to them wrong.) This link is persistent and generated
when the mail is sent.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2018-03-02 at 08:09 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 03/02/18 07:23, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
> > providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
> > the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
> > in my spam folder.
> 
> 
> I also have no record of getting the original posting, by Farhad Mohammadi 
> Majd in my
> inbox or spam.  I do have emails from that person in replies to different 
> threads.
> 
> And, for the record, I've other instances where folks have posted directly in
> HyperKitty that haven't made it to my inbox or spam.


Is anyone else find HyperKitty annoying? What is the point of all that
white space? The old system seemed perfectly functional to me. Is it
worth it to enable posting via the web page, with the attendant bugs?
Is there any other justification for it? And why do messages to this
list no longer include a URL pointing at the archives (probably not
specifically a HK problem but still).


poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 16:09 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 03/01/2018 03:23 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
> > providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
> > the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
> > in my spam folder.
> 
> Sorry, I thought you would have seen past discussions on this topic.  If 
> my memory of this is correct, Yahoo has some DNS marking for anti-spam 
> purposes.  Gmail respects that marking and rejects mailing list email 
> from Yahoo addresses because it's coming from the wrong server.  For 
> actual technical details, search for the previous discussions on either 
> this list or the devel list. :-)

I did speed-read those posts at the time, but clearly misunderstood
what they were about. I hadn't realised the problem affects list mail.
That's just astonishing.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Tim]

On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 15:31 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
> mailing list.

I saw the original message come through the list.

For what it's worth, I don't let my mail host do any spam filtering.  I
just have it auto-delete everything that didn't come from this list.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[John Pilkington]

On 02/03/18 00:40, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 03/01/2018 04:16 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

Well, that then seems to be inconsistently applied.


Maybe not.  If any of it's sent through the expected server, you'll see it.


I have the original post, listing HyperKitty as user agent.

The rpmfusion list has a thread (and a BZ) showing that replies to posts 
on its HyperKitty are not viewable on that web page, but do arrive by 
email.

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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Joe Zeff]

On 03/01/2018 04:16 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

Well, that then seems to be inconsistently applied.


Maybe not.  If any of it's sent through the expected server, you'll see it.
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Ed Greshko]

On 03/02/18 08:09, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 03/01/2018 03:23 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
>> providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
>> the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
>> in my spam folder.
>
> Sorry, I thought you would have seen past discussions on this topic.  If my 
> memory
> of this is correct, Yahoo has some DNS marking for anti-spam purposes.  Gmail
> respects that marking and rejects mailing list email from Yahoo addresses 
> because
> it's coming from the wrong server.  For actual technical details, search for 
> the
> previous discussions on either this list or the devel list. :-)
>

Well, that then seems to be inconsistently applied.

As I mentioned in another response I've gotten emails from Farhad Mohammadi Majd
 via the list in response to other thread messages.


-- 
A motto of mine is: When in doubt, try it out



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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Ed Greshko]

On 03/02/18 07:23, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
> providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
> the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
> in my spam folder.


I also have no record of getting the original posting, by Farhad Mohammadi Majd 
in my
inbox or spam.  I do have emails from that person in replies to different 
threads.

And, for the record, I've other instances where folks have posted directly in
HyperKitty that haven't made it to my inbox or spam.

-- 
A motto of mine is: When in doubt, try it out



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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Samuel Sieb]

On 03/01/2018 03:23 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
in my spam folder.


Sorry, I thought you would have seen past discussions on this topic.  If 
my memory of this is correct, Yahoo has some DNS marking for anti-spam 
purposes.  Gmail respects that marking and rejects mailing list email 
from Yahoo addresses because it's coming from the wrong server.  For 
actual technical details, search for the previous discussions on either 
this list or the devel list. :-)

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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 11:38 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> On 03/01/2018 07:31 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
> > mailing list.
> 
> The original sender is using yahoo and you are using gmail.
> 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/

I'm not sure what your point is. Why would our respective mail
providers matter? List traffic is sent out by the list software, not by
the OP's provider. And for the record, the message in question is not
in my spam folder.

(On a related note: I find the "new" list archive system to be a lot
less usable than the old one, but that's another topic.)

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Samuel Sieb]

On 03/01/2018 07:31 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
mailing list.


The original sender is using yahoo and you are using gmail.

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2018-03-01 at 13:22 +0100, Michal Schorm wrote:
> Your wishes has been granted.

First of all, this message violates https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mail
ing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to_a_Message

Secondly, it appears to be a reply to a message which is not on the
mailing list.

Thirdly, the link to the "Official List Archives" (under https://fedora
project.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#List_Archives) is over two
years out of date.

poc
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Re: The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Michal Schorm]

Your wishes has been granted.

--

"all the links in the section "No HTML Mail, Please" are DEAD!!"
If you meant the 1 link from 2 in that section ... yes. :)
I used the webarchive for now.


--

Michal Schorm
Associate Software Engineer
Core Services - Databases Team
Red Hat


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd
 wrote:
> The page "Mailing list guidelines"
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>
> is not updated nearly 2 years, I saw few errors within it but I have not an 
> account to fix them:
>
> * please mention "https://paste.fedoraproject.org; specially in the sections 
> "No attachments" and "Keep it Short", and *please change that website 
> (paste.fedora...) title for better SEO*
>
> * all the links in the section "No HTML Mail, Please" are DEAD!! they must 
> replaced with archived links from http://web.archive.org or another links
>
> THANKS
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The Fedora Wiki page, "Mailing list guidelines" needs to update!

[Farhad Mohammadi Majd]

The page "Mailing list guidelines"

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines

is not updated nearly 2 years, I saw few errors within it but I have not an 
account to fix them:

* please mention "https://paste.fedoraproject.org; specially in the sections 
"No attachments" and "Keep it Short", and *please change that website 
(paste.fedora...) title for better SEO*

* all the links in the section "No HTML Mail, Please" are DEAD!! they must 
replaced with archived links from http://web.archive.org or another links

THANKS
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