Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Jonathan Harley schrieb: Sean Schofield wrote: MyEclipse is a commercial IDE built on Eclipse right? I'm curious to know a fellow developer's opinion on what some of the improvements over free Eclipse are ... They just provide a huge number of Eclipse plugins for you. Having someone else do testing and provide stable, integrated plugins saves you from the plugin hell most Eclipse users that I've worked with seem to live in. MyEclipse has a 1 month free trial, which I took up last year. But after a month I found it didn't do anything that I wanted that NetBeans can't do, and NetBeans is free so I settled on that. BTW, NetBeans 5 is now out and it's noticeably faster at things like auto-suggest than any other IDE I've tried. While Netbeans5 simply is great it severely lacks currently in the area of JSF, you only get raw jsf templates, no pageflow edit etc.. Sure you can get JSC2 which is simply great, but then you have to run an extra IDE, and you only get the Sun components for now. Both have their strengs and weaknesses, I have tried Netbeans and probably if I have to do some EJB would use it in an instant. But for now I do heavy javascript debugging, I need good Spring support Hibernate as well, and Netbeans does not cut it in this area.
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Jonathan Harley schrieb: Sean Schofield wrote: MyEclipse is a commercial IDE built on Eclipse right? I'm curious to know a fellow developer's opinion on what some of the improvements over free Eclipse are ... They just provide a huge number of Eclipse plugins for you. Having someone else do testing and provide stable, integrated plugins saves you from the plugin hell most Eclipse users that I've worked with seem to live in. MyEclipse has a 1 month free trial, which I took up last year. But after a month I found it didn't do anything that I wanted that NetBeans can't do, and NetBeans is free so I settled on that. BTW, NetBeans 5 is now out and it's noticeably faster at things like auto-suggest than any other IDE I've tried. Jon Yes, and some of the plugins cannot be gotten in that quality from free offerings. You get good Hibernate reverse engineering, you get javascript debugging, excellent Spring support (you simply drag a class into the springconfig.xml, or you can map the hibernate settings directly into the spring xml) some of this stuff is buggy (like the javascript debugger) but for me it simply is the additional value over the standard plugins and that you can avoid plugin hell.
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Legolas Woodland schrieb: I think , who will buy these stuff , All company that has money to by these product line has their own stuff (IBM ,BEA ,SUN ,MS,ORACLE) , is there any other company that has enough cash to buy those products ? how much those products costs ? for example how much should buyer pay to get Jbuilder ? can any one suggest , or read something some where ? Martin van den Bemt wrote: The problem is, most of these tools get into companies by developers using that stuff in their sparetime or by private financing (often you have to fight for tools) so having a tool which developers need in the 4000 dollars pricerange means that you lose customers in the long run, because none of the devs will start to try and use it. Probably Borland should use another scheme, like a small devs license and an Enterprise license, both for the same product but heavily reduced on price for the small devs license. Most developers neither want a 30 days eval nor do have the money to be able to afford those tools on their private budget.
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Up until recently, the bugs... but things are changing. WTP will become a solid foundation in the near future. Btw. is 1.0.1 out already? James Mitchell schrieb: What's wrong with using Eclipse WTP? Works great for me. -- James Mitchell EdgeTech, Inc. http://edgetechservices.net/ 678.910.8017 Skype: jmitchtx On Feb 10, 2006, at 5:51 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote: Sean Schofield wrote: MyEclipse is a commercial IDE built on Eclipse right? I'm curious to know a fellow developer's opinion on what some of the improvements over free Eclipse are ... They just provide a huge number of Eclipse plugins for you. Having someone else do testing and provide stable, integrated plugins saves you from the plugin hell most Eclipse users that I've worked with seem to live in. MyEclipse has a 1 month free trial, which I took up last year. But after a month I found it didn't do anything that I wanted that NetBeans can't do, and NetBeans is free so I settled on that. BTW, NetBeans 5 is now out and it's noticeably faster at things like auto-suggest than any other IDE I've tried. Jon --. Dr Jonathan Harley . . Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Zac Parkplatz Ltd . Office Telephone: 024 7633 1375 www.parkplatz.net . Mobile: 079 4116 0423
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Sean Schofield wrote: MyEclipse is a commercial IDE built on Eclipse right? I'm curious to know a fellow developer's opinion on what some of the improvements over free Eclipse are ... They just provide a huge number of Eclipse plugins for you. Having someone else do testing and provide stable, integrated plugins saves you from the plugin hell most Eclipse users that I've worked with seem to live in. MyEclipse has a 1 month free trial, which I took up last year. But after a month I found it didn't do anything that I wanted that NetBeans can't do, and NetBeans is free so I settled on that. BTW, NetBeans 5 is now out and it's noticeably faster at things like auto-suggest than any other IDE I've tried. Jon -- . Dr Jonathan Harley . . Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Zac Parkplatz Ltd . Office Telephone: 024 7633 1375 www.parkplatz.net . Mobile: 079 4116 0423
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
What's wrong with using Eclipse WTP? Works great for me. -- James Mitchell EdgeTech, Inc. http://edgetechservices.net/ 678.910.8017 Skype: jmitchtx On Feb 10, 2006, at 5:51 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote: Sean Schofield wrote: MyEclipse is a commercial IDE built on Eclipse right? I'm curious to know a fellow developer's opinion on what some of the improvements over free Eclipse are ... They just provide a huge number of Eclipse plugins for you. Having someone else do testing and provide stable, integrated plugins saves you from the plugin hell most Eclipse users that I've worked with seem to live in. MyEclipse has a 1 month free trial, which I took up last year. But after a month I found it didn't do anything that I wanted that NetBeans can't do, and NetBeans is free so I settled on that. BTW, NetBeans 5 is now out and it's noticeably faster at things like auto-suggest than any other IDE I've tried. Jon -- . Dr Jonathan Harley . . Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Zac Parkplatz Ltd . Office Telephone: 024 7633 1375 www.parkplatz.net . Mobile: 079 4116 0423
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Sean Schofield schrieb: I personally love JBuilder but it is very pricey. I think you brought up the main point, now that the enterprise stuff finally again is moving into sane domains pricewise (Thanks to Sun and MyEclipse) Borland simply cannot afford to charge this money for their stuff anymore. Borland started as a tools vendor with moderate prices at a time where tools simply cost a fortune. So lots of people who wanted to learn programming started to use their tools, lots of professionals as well who could not afford the heavy priced alternatives. Once Kahn was kicked out they lost this strategy and pushed a high price strategy with Enterprise plastered all over it (probably a stupid idea of some MBAs taking over internally) By JBuilder X they really worked out most of the kinks. I tried Eclipse but everything was too much of a PITA to get working. Every time I try switching to another IDE I just keep going back to good 'ole JBuilder. Well it never was the quality, yes JBuilder had some kinks but overall the quality always was okay, the problem with Borland always was with the management, not really knowing where there core assets and core market was. (The whole Inprise fiasco was self made, for the same reasons why people were moving away from JBuilder in masses the last years) The funny thing is that others like MyEclipse currently have huge success with the same strategy Borland had 20 years ago. But those companies are not driven by MBAs but by people who saw a need for something like a cheap tool alternative to the expensive enterprise IDEs because many developers simply cannot afford that stuff. And just to sum it up, I have seen about 10 companies in the recent past using MyEclipse and none using JBuilder anymore. The reason for most was that the price was right and the tool was good enough.
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
MyEclipse is a commercial IDE built on Eclipse right? I'm curious to know a fellow developer's opinion on what some of the improvements over free Eclipse are ... Sean On 2/9/06, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sean Schofield schrieb: I personally love JBuilder but it is very pricey. I think you brought up the main point, now that the enterprise stuff finally again is moving into sane domains pricewise (Thanks to Sun and MyEclipse) Borland simply cannot afford to charge this money for their stuff anymore. Borland started as a tools vendor with moderate prices at a time where tools simply cost a fortune. So lots of people who wanted to learn programming started to use their tools, lots of professionals as well who could not afford the heavy priced alternatives. Once Kahn was kicked out they lost this strategy and pushed a high price strategy with Enterprise plastered all over it (probably a stupid idea of some MBAs taking over internally) By JBuilder X they really worked out most of the kinks. I tried Eclipse but everything was too much of a PITA to get working. Every time I try switching to another IDE I just keep going back to good 'ole JBuilder. Well it never was the quality, yes JBuilder had some kinks but overall the quality always was okay, the problem with Borland always was with the management, not really knowing where there core assets and core market was. (The whole Inprise fiasco was self made, for the same reasons why people were moving away from JBuilder in masses the last years) The funny thing is that others like MyEclipse currently have huge success with the same strategy Borland had 20 years ago. But those companies are not driven by MBAs but by people who saw a need for something like a cheap tool alternative to the expensive enterprise IDEs because many developers simply cannot afford that stuff. And just to sum it up, I have seen about 10 companies in the recent past using MyEclipse and none using JBuilder anymore. The reason for most was that the price was right and the tool was good enough.
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Werner Punz wrote: Sean Schofield schrieb: I personally love JBuilder but it is very pricey. I think you brought up the main point, now that the enterprise stuff finally again is moving into sane domains pricewise (Thanks to Sun and MyEclipse) Borland simply cannot afford to charge this money for their stuff anymore. Borland started as a tools vendor with moderate prices at a time where tools simply cost a fortune. So lots of people who wanted to learn programming started to use their tools, lots of professionals as well who could not afford the heavy priced alternatives. Once Kahn was kicked out they lost this strategy and pushed a high price strategy with Enterprise plastered all over it (probably a stupid idea of some MBAs taking over internally) I think the problem started when Niels Jensen left and started JPI (one of the founders of Borland, don't know when the others left, Kahn is not the founder btw). Normally when the soul leaves the company, the company changes. Mvgr, Martin
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
I think , who will buy these stuff , All company that has money to by these product line has their own stuff (IBM ,BEA ,SUN ,MS,ORACLE) , is there any other company that has enough cash to buy those products ? how much those products costs ? for example how much should buyer pay to get Jbuilder ? can any one suggest , or read something some where ? Martin van den Bemt wrote: Werner Punz wrote: Sean Schofield schrieb: I personally love JBuilder but it is very pricey. I think you brought up the main point, now that the enterprise stuff finally again is moving into sane domains pricewise (Thanks to Sun and MyEclipse) Borland simply cannot afford to charge this money for their stuff anymore. Borland started as a tools vendor with moderate prices at a time where tools simply cost a fortune. So lots of people who wanted to learn programming started to use their tools, lots of professionals as well who could not afford the heavy priced alternatives. Once Kahn was kicked out they lost this strategy and pushed a high price strategy with Enterprise plastered all over it (probably a stupid idea of some MBAs taking over internally) I think the problem started when Niels Jensen left and started JPI (one of the founders of Borland, don't know when the others left, Kahn is not the founder btw). Normally when the soul leaves the company, the company changes. Mvgr, Martin
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
It takes some high level bookkeeping to determine the real value.. Mvgr, Martin Legolas Woodland wrote: I think , who will buy these stuff , All company that has money to by these product line has their own stuff (IBM ,BEA ,SUN ,MS,ORACLE) , is there any other company that has enough cash to buy those products ? how much those products costs ? for example how much should buyer pay to get Jbuilder ? can any one suggest , or read something some where ? Martin van den Bemt wrote: Werner Punz wrote: Sean Schofield schrieb: I personally love JBuilder but it is very pricey. I think you brought up the main point, now that the enterprise stuff finally again is moving into sane domains pricewise (Thanks to Sun and MyEclipse) Borland simply cannot afford to charge this money for their stuff anymore. Borland started as a tools vendor with moderate prices at a time where tools simply cost a fortune. So lots of people who wanted to learn programming started to use their tools, lots of professionals as well who could not afford the heavy priced alternatives. Once Kahn was kicked out they lost this strategy and pushed a high price strategy with Enterprise plastered all over it (probably a stupid idea of some MBAs taking over internally) I think the problem started when Niels Jensen left and started JPI (one of the founders of Borland, don't know when the others left, Kahn is not the founder btw). Normally when the soul leaves the company, the company changes. Mvgr, Martin
[other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Hi just look at http://blogs.borland.com/davidi/archive/2006/02/08/23013.aspx it say that borland is going to sell its IDEs , what will happen next ? who will buy jdeveloper ?
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
Legolas Woodland schrieb: Hi just look at http://blogs.borland.com/davidi/archive/2006/02/08/23013.aspx it say that borland is going to sell its IDEs , what will happen next ? who will buy jdeveloper ? All I can say to it is that Borland often has missed the sign of the times since Philip Kahn has went away, this time they missed it one time too much :-( I dont think that the new strategy will pay off, this is the usual Borland we give another direction a try move. The question comes to my mind who will buy the stuff. Well Delphi is interesting for some (Microsoft ?) but the rest? JBuilder not really that interesting anymore given that other IDEs have made significant advancements. Interbase has been dead and forked since ages and probably most Interbase users have moved towards Firebird just for the sake of having a development going on into this product. The only interesting asset is the ongoing works into the Eclipse extensions.
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
OptimizeIt was pretty awesome at one point, but I think Borland's acquisition also managed to kill it as well. On 2/8/06, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Legolas Woodland schrieb: Hi just look at http://blogs.borland.com/davidi/archive/2006/02/08/23013.aspx it say that borland is going to sell its IDEs , what will happen next ? who will buy jdeveloper ? All I can say to it is that Borland often has missed the sign of the times since Philip Kahn has went away, this time they missed it one time too much :-( I dont think that the new strategy will pay off, this is the usual Borland we give another direction a try move. The question comes to my mind who will buy the stuff. Well Delphi is interesting for some (Microsoft ?) but the rest? JBuilder not really that interesting anymore given that other IDEs have made significant advancements. Interbase has been dead and forked since ages and probably most Interbase users have moved towards Firebird just for the sake of having a development going on into this product. The only interesting asset is the ongoing works into the Eclipse extensions.
Re: [other]Borland want to sell its IDE products.....
You should have tried IntelliJ, Sean ;) And with JetBrains, we have the hope to have full support for JSF in the next version - they have someone on both expert groups for JSF now, and promise full support for JSF in 6.0. I hope they will keep to their promise regards, Martin On 2/9/06, Sean Schofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally love JBuilder but it is very pricey. By JBuilder X they really worked out most of the kinks. I tried Eclipse but everything was too much of a PITA to get working. Every time I try switching to another IDE I just keep going back to good 'ole JBuilder. I've tried the latest JDeveloper and StudioCreator and the latest versions of both look promising but I end up giving up after wasting several hours trying to get everything setup the way I need it. So I'm sticking with JBuilder until the JSF-enabled IDE's mature a little more. Sean On 2/8/06, Mike Kienenberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OptimizeIt was pretty awesome at one point, but I think Borland's acquisition also managed to kill it as well. On 2/8/06, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Legolas Woodland schrieb: Hi just look at http://blogs.borland.com/davidi/archive/2006/02/08/23013.aspx it say that borland is going to sell its IDEs , what will happen next ? who will buy jdeveloper ? All I can say to it is that Borland often has missed the sign of the times since Philip Kahn has went away, this time they missed it one time too much :-( I dont think that the new strategy will pay off, this is the usual Borland we give another direction a try move. The question comes to my mind who will buy the stuff. Well Delphi is interesting for some (Microsoft ?) but the rest? JBuilder not really that interesting anymore given that other IDEs have made significant advancements. Interbase has been dead and forked since ages and probably most Interbase users have moved towards Firebird just for the sake of having a development going on into this product. The only interesting asset is the ongoing works into the Eclipse extensions. -- http://www.irian.at Your JSF powerhouse - JSF Consulting, Development and Courses in English and German Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
