subject:"IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re\: \[Bug 7826\] Improve language around whitelist\/blacklist and master\/slave"

On 14/07/2020 19:03, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> Marc and others about voting, 
> 
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned by 
> demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management committee 
> aka the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April 
> with a vote in early May by the PMC.   
> 
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages 
> that use them.   
> 
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived 
> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that 
> when you post.

Ah now the true dictatorship comes out 

"how dare you disagree with me"  "dont like you hating on my decisions" 
wahh wah wahh 

You are the only one being inconsiderate Kevin, if you actually were
serious you would have brought this this out on this list for
discussion, with you know, T H E  U S E R S  of the software to have
their say, without us YOU are irrelevant. 

it shows you treating every single one of us with utter contempt. 

YOU made this decision, YOU have to live with ALL the consequences both
good AND bad so suck it up princess. 

your attack on people disagreeing with you shows YOU have NO thought to
anyone on this but for  jumping on some bandwagon" 

As for side of history? pfft I like probably  over 50% of this list are
NOT Americans, but the world is used to Americans trying to force their
views down down everyone elses throat. 

Feel free to ignore me, I, like most here have made their point very
clear we are disgusted with your dictatorship, we know you don't care
what any of us think,  SO let HISTORY  also reflect that too! 

Since SA does have alternatives, and i get more reasonable debate out of
talking to my rottweilers than you, this ends my waste of time.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Firstly, not directred at you lbutlr, but to Harry since I dont care to
read his vile trash, BUT, 

Let the history note that at 0917 on Wednesday, 15 July 2020, I agreed
with something he allegedly posted. 

On 12/07/2020 09:23, @lbutlr wrote:

> On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:38, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> 
>> nobody right in his mind thins about black people in chanis when read
>> something like this in a technical context: slave, master, blacklist,
>> whitelist, blackhat, whitehat

Now, back to OP @lbutlr 

> Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose 
> opinion differs from yours?

Thats been Harry's trait for years its why he is moderated here, its why
he is moderated or banned from so many lists I lost count over the
years. He's a sociopath as he sees nothing wrong with what he does. 

-- 
Kind Regards, 

Noel Butler 

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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

On 13/07/2020 06:48, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to debate 
> politics, go somewhere else.  If you want to stop bastard spammers, this is 
> the place.

Bullshit it isnt a political forum - YOU Kevin made it one ! 

One which clearly 99% of people you know them, the  users? the users
that make SA relative, disagree with. 

-- 
Kind Regards, 

Noel Butler 

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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

On 11/07/2020 21:39, Axb wrote:

> On 7/11/20 1:32 PM, Antony Stone wrote: On Saturday 11 July 2020 at 12:42:43, 
> hospice admin wrote:
> 
> Concentrating on the technical issues below ...
> 
> I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread,
> myself included,  that this does not 'make the technology better'.
> 
> That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their
> cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just
> different [in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for
> diversity of any kind].
> 
> For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months
> to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat'
> towards diversity. 
> Unfortunately you speak with the voice of reason, and that is never welcome
> when people are bent on enforcing "political correctness" on the world.
> 
> Any dissenting opinion is regarded as "missing the point" or being
> "insensitive to the oppressed", whether the situation in which the correctness
> police are enforcing their views has anything to do with the oppressed or not.
> 
> I wish you luck in asking people to debate the real question of whether there
> is in fact any problem to be solved, and if there is, what is the sensible way
> to solve it.
> 
> For my part, until anyone can show that the use of words such as blacklist or
> master/slave in technology has anything to do with racial references and are
> therefore being used in an offensive way, rather than as standard terms for 
> the
> industry with no reference at all to human social groups, they're just
> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble and heated debate where there
> is no real problem.

Amen to that!
And the ppl pushing these changes now obviously won't step back because
they'd loose their face.

I don't wish them the best. They will be causing a huge amount of ppl a
truckload of grief and unnecessary work.

Axb 

100% ! 

Looks like i'll have to break my lifetime stance and take pity on
bankers and accountants as well huh 

I mean no more  you're "in the black" 

and bugger me, after some news trash out of - you guess it, the USA
about redskins offending indians and some football, I guess they''' have
to stop saying  your'e " in the red"  too 

only in fucking america. 

SA is open source enough to fork yeah?  I can see that happening 

-- 
Kind Regards, 

Noel Butler 

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privileged
information, therefore remains confidential and subject to copyright
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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Eric Broch


Social Justice activism is political.

On 7/14/2020 10:24 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social 
issue, not a political issue.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Martin Gregorie

On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 16:50 -0500, sha...@shanew.net wrote:
> That last bit is plain wrong.  Jamestown had Africans as slaves as
> early as 1619, 
>
Fair enough - I was ignoring the Spanish because it seems to me,
possibly wrongly, that what they did in that sphere had little influence
on the English-speaking world.
 
> As for the influence of religion at this time, surely you're aware of
> Biblical defenses of racism and slavery, whether in the form of the
> "curse of Ham" or the suggestion that slavery was a necessary evil
> because it would control the sinful, less humane, black race.
> 
Sure, but we're discussing the root of the Xtian association of black
with an evil soul, not with biblically sanctioned skin colour-neutral
slavery.

> > Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black'
> > first coined and where did that happen?

> The quick version is that various "natural philosophers" in the late
> 1600s tried to describe and account for the different "races" that
> they encountered in the world.  One famous account is from François
> Bernier, entitled "New Division of the Earth by the Different Species
> or 'Races' of Man that Inhabit It."
> 
That just makes my point: that the term 'black list', first documented
to be used by Charles II in 1640 about assuredly used by English persons
with probably some Scandinavian ancestry (William of 1066 fame was of
mixed Norse-French ancestry) was referring to 'black sin' rather than
black skins before said 'natural philosophers', Linnaeus, etc. chose to
apply it to black-skinned people with a racial meaning.

Thanks for that confirmation.

Martin

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Sir, with all due respect, your extreme arrogance is exceptionally off putting. 
You imagine a problem. Then demand it be solved damn the consequences. You 
imagined the wrong problem. So your non-solution is doomed. Systemic racism is 
in YOUR head not MY head. Respect is in MY head. I am not sure it is in your 
head. Respect is the social lubricant you need not stupid word changes. It is 
sad you do not see this. And your sublime arrogance about it is rather off putting.


{o.o}

On 20200714 09:24:42, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree.  To me it is clearly racially charged language 
and you are cherry picking your sources.  Here's a well researched and 
documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert citations: 
https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The abstract says it very well: 
"This commentary addresses the widespread use of racist language in discussions 
concerning predatory publishing. Examples include terminology such as 
blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep. The use of such terms does not merely 
reflect a racist culture, but also serves to legitimize and perpetuate it."


I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social issue, not a 
political issue.  However, I didn't do so unilaterally because that's not how 
projects at Apache work.


When the time comes for a 4.0 release, we, meaning the project management 
commitment, will follow our well documented voting procedures to create and 
approve a release announcement.  I have no interest in causing strife but if it 
quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, I will call it a duck.

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:49 AM Rupert Gallagher > wrote:



 > racially-charged nature of blacklist

There is no such thing.

Black list originates from black book, that is a book with white pages and
black cover, with black ink, where sins are listed in haven for you to be
judged upon.

On the colour of the cover, it is black because that's how old leather turns
out to be.

On the colour of ink, try writing white ink on black paper if you can...

Stop using SA to push your political agenda. When v4 comes out, do not dare
writing that *we* decided to *change* blacklist into blocklist because of
the "racially-charged nature" of it, because it is not, because we said so,
and because you are forcing it.

Have the courage to put your own name under your own decision, do not blame
us for it.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread shanew


On Tue, 14 Jul 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:


I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier than
1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the earlier
religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by it.
This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society in
the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America before
about 1640.


That last bit is plain wrong.  Jamestown had Africans as slaves as early
as 1619, but the Spanish were even earlier, having brought slaves on
an expedition to present-day South Carolina in 1526 (slaves who then
rebelled and essentially destroyed the settlement's ability to
survive).
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/misguided-focus-1619-beginning-slavery-us-damages-our-understanding-american-history-180964873/

As for the influence of religion at this time, surely you're aware of
Biblical defenses of racism and slavery, whether in the form of the
"curse of Ham" or the suggestion that slavery was a necessary evil
because it would control the sinful, less humane, black race.

Furthermore, even if "black" and "sin" are linked prior to the use of
black as racist, this does not diminish the reality that "white"
racist views of "black" people are long-standing.  And, as pure
conjecture, if European Christians associated black with sin and evil,
it's not much of a leap to suggest these associations suggested or
strengthened their racist views of black people as lazy (Sloth),
capricious (Greed) and lustful (Lust), among other negative qualities.



Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' first
coined and where did that happen?


While there are earlier uses of the term "black" referring to
darker-skinned people, it most directly comes to us via the European
Enlightment, and it was racist from the start.  The quick version is
that various "natural philosophers" in the late 1600s tried to
describe and account for the different "races" that they encountered
in the world.  One famous account is from François Bernier, entitled
"New Division of the Earth by the Different Species or 'Races' of Man
that Inhabit It."
https://web.archive.org/web/20060524134126/http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant275/reader/bernier.PDF
Bernier doesn't explicitly classify these groups into color in this
piece, but he does say " if a black African pair be transported to a
cold country, their children are just as black, and so are all their
descendants until they come to marry with white women."  Additionally,
he describes their hair as "not properly hair, but rather a species of
wool, which comes near the hairs of some of our dogs".  Just an
example of how the "other" is not proper, but rather is animalistic.

For explicit connection between race and color, as well as clear
expressions of white racial superiority, we have Carl Linnaeus to
thank.  In the first edition of Systema Naturae, from 1735, he
classififed humans into four subgroups or "varieties" of human species
(later expanded to five), and by the 1758 version these were
specifically associated with color: White (Europeanus), Yellow
(Asiaticus), Black (Africanus), and Red (Americanus).
https://www.nature.com/articles/447028a

To say his descriptions of these "species" feels oddly familiar in our
modern world would be an understatement:

Africanus is desribed as "black, phlegmatic, relaxed; black, frizzled
hair; silky skin, flat nose, tumid lips; females without shame;
mammary glands give milk abundantly; crafty, sly, lazy, cunning,
lustful, careless; anoints himself with grease; and governed by
caprice."

Europeanus, on the other hand, is described as "white, sanguine,
browny; with abundant, long hair; blue eyes; gentle, acute, inventive;
covered with close vestments; and governed by laws."

These are the beginnings of scientific racism, and while it's mostly
rejected these days, it still has modern proponents.  Wikipedia has a
good overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

Another interesting scientific debate that reveals racism in the
European Enlightenment (and the history of science, lest we think of
it and it's cousin technology somehow innocent of racism)) is
monogenism vs polygenism and the theory of degeneration that the
monogenists posited to explain the differences in race and ethinicity.
The jist of it is that "white" people reflect the "normal" state of
man, and other races have degenerated based on environmental and
climate differences around the world.  Moved to a more temperate
climate, Georges-Louis Buffon suggested, a black person from Senegal
would eventually return to his "normal" white, blonde and blue-eyed
state.  Clearly wrong, but also clearly racist.  And it wasn't some
fringe belief.  The likes of David Hume and Immanuel Kant, while
dissagreeing with Buffon that someone could return to "normal" just by
moving to a different climate, agreed that "the Negroes, and in
general all the other species of men [are]

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Kevin, the mistake made every time this issue comes up, and I've seen since the
N word letter was followed by egro, is the silly notion that changing
nomenclature will change anything real when what is needed is more respect for
what a person brings to a situation than manufactured respect for what they are
physically. It implies very directly that a person who respects another for his
accomplishments ignoring skin color is a de facto racist. You are sending
exactly the wrong message. Respect a person for his abilities and character
today. The past, the skin color, the number of properly working appendages, the
presence or absence of hair on the head, the preferred partner choices, matter
only in very specific circumstances. Respect for a person's abilities and
character apply to every situation. Which does more good?

{^_^}

On 20200714 06:15:36, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

Dave,

The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by being
less offensive and more aware of the language we use without thinking.

Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
Project with the Apache Software Foundation. This is just an argument fallacy.
My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the ASF founders,
reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache Nation council with all
being good. The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on
referring to them as the Apache Nation but otherwise, there are no issues with
the Apache name. We are proud to use the name Apache and hope that our great
work as a foundation brings it the honor it deserves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich > wrote:

No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.

If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must
change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are
not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you
are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be
wrong.

DAve

- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org>> wrote:

I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language
was an added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove
racially charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since
the major bump would allow for disruption. Further, this article was
what reminded me to bring it up:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich
mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:

The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go
to solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion
on this issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had
merit for clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of
history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more clear and
understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.

I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

DAve

- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org>> wrote:

Marc and others about voting,

The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are
earned by demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project
management committee aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on
this change started in early April with a vote in early May by
the PMC.

To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will
ignore messages that use them.

To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a
publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side
of history. Consider that when you post.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos mailto:m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu>> wrote:

> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.
The change is

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

They created a problem that was not there and then "solved it". Aren't they
marvelous? Solving social problems by means of technical name changes does not
solve either technical or social problems. This has been my experience
repeatedly. Are we now not able to include a color in descriptions of technical
features? What does that do to the black and white bands on resistor color
codes? After all, white (9) is a higher number than black (1) which is, of
course, blatant racial profiling, right?

What social problem is this supposed to solve? Is it real or is it made up? As a
woman neologisms such as "hesh" and "hir" do not reassure me and make me more
comfortable in the various technical communities I join because of my interests.
A few times, not NEARLY as often as four decades ago or more, I've taken
advantage of the fact you guys cannot see me and draw inferences mostly based on
such technical expertise as I demonstrate. Then I let my being a woman leak out,
I use my name in addition to my usual signature glyph. Some of the men cannot
accept a woman being a peer. Recognition for expertise, ability, and knowledge
is WAY WAY more important when you want to create an "inclusive" group than
choice or pronouns. I figure I am included when people automatically presume I
am part of "you guys" when they use that phrase. When I am accepted the pronouns
drop out of importance.

I an not here to be a "gurl". I am here as somebody who commits sysadmin
functions on a small two man* office for me and my partner. I can extrapolate
the problems we will face to those people who perform system administration
functions for collections of small businesses on a consulting basis. Customers
will see their need to take actions or accept "somebody snooping on their
settings" on the consultant. You guys at Apache are in the clear. The customers
won't be charging their anger to your karma. I am not in technical groups to
flaunt my femininity or lack there of. I am not here partner hunting. I am not
here as a woman. I am here as a user who has some level of technical capability.
I've not been demonstrating it lately because mostly it works and when it does
not I make rules for myself that do work. And my partner is even better at
making rules. Since SARE died sharing the rules has sort of fallen away. So I
tend to be silent until I am faced with "it just works" quit working. I am
human. I resent that imposition for reasons I rather consider spurious and
utterly without technical merit.

I see a change being made to solve a phantom social problem pandering to some
truly violent people some of whom brag about being trained Marxist agitators.
That change causes technical and social problems for a class of your (admittedly
non paying) customers to whom you pass along the need to make changes for no
good technical reason. These violent people will never be appeased by changes
you make. So why bother to make the changes? Rather ask, no demand, your lazy
assed politicians to do their jobs.

As for the social problem, Kevin, I am afraid that as I see it you are a part of
the problem not part of any applicable social or technical solution.

{^_^}

* "two man" is less typing than "two person" and less silly than any other three
letter neologism that recognizes "man" is really "male" and "female" and 307
different shades in between. Man means human here. That is something that so far
is all inclusive. I do not expect that to last forever. The term has to grow to fit.

On 20200714 05:28:56, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language was an
added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially charged
language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would
allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it
up:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich > wrote:

The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to
solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this
issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for
clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me
this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This is
posturing and pandering.

I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

DAve

- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org>> wrote:

Marc and others about voting,

The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Damian

> Here's a well researched and documented article from a medical
> journal on the topic with expert citations:
> https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490 The abstract says it
> very well: "This commentary addresses the widespread use of racist
> language in discussions concerning predatory publishing. Examples
> include terminology such as blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep.
> The use of such terms does not merely reflect a racist culture, but
> also serves to legitimize and perpetuate it."

I was impressed by the plethora of citations when I first overlooked the
article. However, none of those citations prove that black* and white*
are connected to race. Any citation around "predatory publishing" can be
ignored in our context, because that term is completely unrelated to
linguistics or racism, so such citation cannot prove a point but merely
serve as an example that those words can be found in journal texts.

[40-42] where citations that seemed promising, but I could not
find the full articles without a paywall in front of them. The cited
passages from [40-42] in the article itself though, i.e. the
connotations of "WHITENESS" and "BLACKNESS", do not prove a connection
to race.

Another statement from the article:

> It is notable that the first recorded use of the term occurs at the
> time of mass enslavement and forced deportation of Africans to work
> in European-held colonies in the Americas.
Even if this were true, it does not mean that every word around black-
and whiteness is automatically connected to race.

As Kurt Fitzner pointed out:

> White and black have been and are references to light and dark, and
> in every language race and culture on the planet are used in compound
> words, phrases and sentences that evoke metaphors of good and bad

My latin dictionary refers to "ignes nigri" and "hic niger est" as
examples of metaphors of badness that have been used by Horace or Virgil
before the 1590s.

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

> We do you the courtesy of speaking English, so please do us the 
courtesy of not bullying us about
> what you consider permissible or racially charged.

That is our own fault also. I have been trying to get funding for a 
project to counter some US monopoly, but we have here just cheap/greedy 
investors that do not allow for such ideas to sprout. Since you brought 
up the language aspect, you might be pleased to read that my favorite 
saying is German, "gegen Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens"

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

I really do not get the point of refering to some period, are you a 
historian? I am not doing any research on this subject but, the 
white/black good/bad dualism[1] goes as far back as 1000BC, who are we 
(current generation) to stamp this as being racist and alter the meaning 
of it's use in the 1000's of years before. If you are using a few 
hundred years as an argument. I have a few thousand years as counter 
argument. And lets be honest, US culture is nothing compared to eg 
Chinese. If it where not for their gun powder invention, there would not 
have been a genocide killing around 50? million native Americans. 

Your arguments do not make sense, because you are not able to judge this 
with your limited knowledge of the situation, (as I am not qualified). 
Do you get that this is beyond your capabilities? You are deciding 
something that a team of 100 experts al with higher IQ than yours, 
specilized in the various aspects that come into play, probably have 
difficulties giving a general advice.

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

-Original Message-
From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org] 
Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 21:16
To: mar...@gregorie.org
Cc: Rupert Gallagher; Marc Roos; Dave Goodrich; SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] 
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

I would posit that the 1962 date is rooted as much in the US Civil 
Rights movement in the 1960's as anything else.  Before then white and 
black definitely had negative connotations such as whites-only 
restrooms, areas on busses, restaurants, water fountains, neighborhoods, 
and whatever other atrocities people thought of to inflict on people by 
race.  SA is going to stop legitimizing and perpetuating the use of 
racially charged language.

For those who insist, you have backwards compatibility and I hope the 
change is embraced.

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 3:08 PM Martin Gregorie  
wrote:

On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 12:24 -0400, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> We'll have to agree to disagree.  To me it is clearly racially 
charged
> language and you are cherry picking your sources.  Here's a well
> researched
> and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with 
expert
> citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The
> abstract
>
The first *recorded* use of the term 'blacklist' or 'black list' 
was in
1660 when Charles II of England used it to refer to a list of those 
who
had killed his father, Charles I. From the context it is far more 
likely
that 'black list' was referring to the sin of regicide than to 
anybody's
skin colour.

I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier 
than
1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the 
earlier
religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by 
it.
This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society 
in
the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America 
before
about 1640.

Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' 
first
coined and where did that happen?

Me? I grew up in NZ where the social norms were against any attempt 
to
denigrate Maoris: anybody who would not let a Maori meter-reader in 
to
read his electricity meter would not be sent a pakeha meter reader 
and
so was more or less guaranteed to get a heavy fine for late payment 
and
failing to get his meter read. Similarly, I don't remember the All
Blacks, national rugby team, ever not having Maoris in it.

Martin

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Ralph Seichter

* Kevin A. McGrail:

> I would posit that the 1962 date is rooted as much in the US Civil
> Rights movement in the 1960's as anything else. Before then white and
> black definitely had negative connotations [...]

And we're back, once again, to America: The *US* Civil Rights movement
(which I consider a positive thing by the way). You obviously continue
to ignore that white/black mean different things across the globe.

If you talk about "die Schwarzen" (lit. "the Blacks") in Germany without
specifying a different context, in most civil minded discussions people
will assume you are talking about members of the either one of the
established conservative parties CDU/CSU, i.e. the governing parties.
"Die Roten" (lit. "the Reds") would be the socialist democratic party
SPD, "die Gelben" (lit. "the Yellows") the free decmocratic party FDP,
and so forth.

Look at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschen_Bundesregierungen,
the list of German governments over time, and you will see how the
various colours match political parties here. This is just one country,
but the one in which I happen to live, and what America thinks about
colours does not interest me all that much.

> SA is going to stop legitimizing and perpetuating the use of racially
> charged language.

This is and remains primarily a US-centric issue, no matter if you try
to convince us (and perhaps even yourself) otherwise. I don't care if
you can sleep better at night. It is obnoxious and arrogant to try and
push a America-centric (or possibly Anglo-centric) viewpoint on the
world. We do you the courtesy of speaking English, so please do us the
courtesy of not bullying us about what you consider permissible or
racially charged.

> For those who insist, you have backwards compatibility and I hope the
> change is embraced.

Hope all you like. It is not.

-Ralph

Re: Stop this before it goes any further (was Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave)

2020-07-14 Thread jason hirsh

Amen.


> On Jul 14, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Kurt Fitzner  wrote:
> 
> This is truly unfortunate.  The current trend of whitewashing (and no I'm not 
> afraid of using a word with "white" in it) away perceived slurs where there 
> never were any is both troubling and counter-productive.
> 
> I shouldn't have to post something like this here.  We should all be adults 
> and intelligent enough to understand these things.  The fact that I have to 
> is also troubling.  I find myself shocked and amazed that these facts are not 
> self evident.  But since they clearly aren't, here they are:
> 
> 1) White_ / Black_ are not now and nor ever were they racially 
> motivated compound word prefixes.  White and black have been and are 
> references to light and dark, and in every language race and culture on the 
> planet are used in compound words, phrases and sentences that evoke metaphors 
> of good and bad.  In this context the prefixes have never had anything to do 
> with skin colour, and to change the words now casts aspersions on everyone 
> who has ever used them.  It's a backusation of prejudice that has just never 
> been there.  White hat / black hat.  Light and dark.  Good and bad.  The 
> terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" came into being because they are based on 
> universally understood concepts of light and dark.  You are not going to 
> change the concepts of "light" and "dark" as metaphors for good and bad - the 
> light and goodness of day and the frightening aspects of night are etched 
> into our collective racial and likely genetic memories as good and bad from 
> long before there ever were humans with different skin colours.  Treating 
> whitelist and blacklist as if they are skin-colour related is factually 
> incorrect. 
> 
> 2) Master and slave are also not racially motivated.  I don't have to 
> recapitulate the history of the lasts two centuries, we all know it, but lets 
> go further back... two millennia and further.  Every conquering culture made 
> slaves of a certain number of its prisoners and vanquished foes.  Every 
> colour and race in history has done this to every other colour and race.  The 
> words are not inherently racially charged.  They are simple references to 
> states.  Further more, master and slave are proper and accurate words to use 
> in many cases outside of a context of actual human slavery.  Master denotes 
> (variously) leadership, authority, skillfulness, and control.  Slave denotes 
> subservience and being controlled.  You cannot erase the concepts of 
> authority and subservience in their entirety because some people once assumed 
> immoral authority over others.  Changing the words you use will not change 
> the underlying concept, and treating the words like they are racially charged 
> now is, again, a backusation that is unwarranted and frankly an affront to 
> all who have ever used them properly.  Are we going to change the rank of 
> master chief, stop having master cylinders, are going to stop mastering 
> skills?  I sincerely hope this madness doesn't spread that far.  The words 
> are not evil.  The concepts of master and slave are not even evil.  They are 
> simple word tools for the ease of understanding concepts and relationships.  
> Unless you intend to erase the whole concept of hierarchical relationships, 
> the word choices used to denote them can't make them less racial because they 
> never were.
> 
> 3) The act of changing these words is, itself, actively self defeating.  The 
> irony of changing words that never were racial on the off chance they might 
> be interpreted that way as a method of getting to a world where race doesn't 
> matter is acute.  Please tell me I am not the only one to see this terrible 
> irony.  We are all looking for that world where race and colour simply don't 
> matter.  Where the colour of one's skin and the culture one is from is of no 
> more interest than any other fact or statistic about one's individual 
> phenotypes or family history.  Taking words and shining a spotlight on them 
> as suddenly racial is a step away from that world of "it just doesn't 
> matter".  It is an affront to the (what I hopefully believe is the) majority 
> of people of all races and cultures for whom colour simply doesn't matter.  
> And it is making a racial issue where there was none before.  This isn't a 
> step in the right direction.  This is not accomplishing that goal.  This is 
> the opposite of accomplishing that goal.
> 
> This action is wrong because it cannot accomplish its stated goal.  This is 
> wrong because it is making racial what was not.  This is wrong because the 
> connotations you giving the words are factually and historically incorrect.  
> This is wrong, and that should be self evident to every single one of you.
> 
> Kurt Fitzner
> 
>  
>  
> On 2020-07-10 01:00, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE
> 
> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

I would posit that the 1962 date is rooted as much in the US Civil Rights
movement in the 1960's as anything else.  Before then white and black
definitely had negative connotations such as whites-only restrooms, areas
on busses, restaurants, water fountains, neighborhoods, and whatever other
atrocities people thought of to inflict on people by race.  SA is going to
stop legitimizing and perpetuating the use of racially charged language.

For those who insist, you have backwards compatibility and I hope the
change is embraced.

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 3:08 PM Martin Gregorie  wrote:

> On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 12:24 -0400, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> > We'll have to agree to disagree.  To me it is clearly racially charged
> > language and you are cherry picking your sources.  Here's a well
> > researched
> > and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
> > citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The
> > abstract
> >
> The first *recorded* use of the term 'blacklist' or 'black list' was in
> 1660 when Charles II of England used it to refer to a list of those who
> had killed his father, Charles I. From the context it is far more likely
> that 'black list' was referring to the sin of regicide than to anybody's
> skin colour.
>
> I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier than
> 1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the earlier
> religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by it.
> This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society in
> the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America before
> about 1640.
>
> Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' first
> coined and where did that happen?
>
> Me? I grew up in NZ where the social norms were against any attempt to
> denigrate Maoris: anybody who would not let a Maori meter-reader in to
> read his electricity meter would not be sent a pakeha meter reader and
> so was more or less guaranteed to get a heavy fine for late payment and
> failing to get his meter read. Similarly, I don't remember the All
> Blacks, national rugby team, ever not having Maoris in it.
>
> Martin
>
>
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Martin Gregorie

On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 12:24 -0400, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> We'll have to agree to disagree.  To me it is clearly racially charged
> language and you are cherry picking your sources.  Here's a well
> researched
> and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
> citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The
> abstract
>
The first *recorded* use of the term 'blacklist' or 'black list' was in
1660 when Charles II of England used it to refer to a list of those who
had killed his father, Charles I. From the context it is far more likely
that 'black list' was referring to the sin of regicide than to anybody's
skin colour.

I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier than
1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the earlier
religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by it.
This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society in
the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America before
about 1640.

Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' first
coined and where did that happen?

Me? I grew up in NZ where the social norms were against any attempt to
denigrate Maoris: anybody who would not let a Maori meter-reader in to
read his electricity meter would not be sent a pakeha meter reader and
so was more or less guaranteed to get a heavy fine for late payment and
failing to get his meter read. Similarly, I don't remember the All
Blacks, national rugby team, ever not having Maoris in it.

Martin

Stop this before it goes any further (was Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave)

2020-07-14 Thread Kurt Fitzner

This is truly unfortunate.  The current trend of whitewashing (and no
I'm not afraid of using a word with "white" in it) away perceived slurs
where there never were any is both troubling and counter-productive. 

I shouldn't have to post something like this here.  We should all be
adults and intelligent enough to understand these things.  The fact that
I have to is also troubling.  I find myself shocked and amazed that
these facts are not self evident.  But since they clearly aren't, here
they are: 

1) White_ / Black_ are not now and nor ever were they racially
motivated compound word prefixes.  White and black have been and are
references to light and dark, and in every language race and culture on
the planet are used in compound words, phrases and sentences that evoke
metaphors of good and bad.  In this context the prefixes have never had
anything to do with skin colour, and to change the words now casts
aspersions on everyone who has ever used them.  It's a backusation of
prejudice that has just never been there.  White hat / black hat.  Light
and dark.  Good and bad.  The terms "whitelist" and "blacklist" came
into being because they are based on universally understood concepts of
light and dark.  You are not going to change the concepts of "light" and
"dark" as metaphors for good and bad - the light and goodness of day and
the frightening aspects of night are etched into our collective racial
and likely genetic memories as good and bad from long before there ever
were humans with different skin colours.  Treating whitelist and
blacklist as if they are skin-colour related is factually incorrect.

2) Master and slave are also not racially motivated.  I don't have to
recapitulate the history of the lasts two centuries, we all know it, but
lets go further back... two millennia and further.  Every conquering
culture made slaves of a certain number of its prisoners and vanquished
foes.  Every colour and race in history has done this to every other
colour and race.  The words are not inherently racially charged.  They
are simple references to states.  Further more, master and slave are
proper and accurate words to use in many cases outside of a context of
actual human slavery.  Master denotes (variously) leadership, authority,
skillfulness, and control.  Slave denotes subservience and being
controlled.  You cannot erase the concepts of authority and subservience
in their entirety because some people once assumed immoral authority
over others.  Changing the words you use will not change the underlying
concept, and treating the words like they are racially charged now is,
again, a backusation that is unwarranted and frankly an affront to all
who have ever used them properly.  Are we going to change the rank of
master chief, stop having master cylinders, are going to stop mastering
skills?  I sincerely hope this madness doesn't spread that far.  The
words are not evil.  The concepts of master and slave are not even evil.
 They are simple word tools for the ease of understanding concepts and
relationships.  Unless you intend to erase the whole concept of
hierarchical relationships, the word choices used to denote them can't
make them less racial because they never were. 

3) The act of changing these words is, itself, actively self defeating. 
The irony of changing words that never were racial on the off chance
they might be interpreted that way as a method of getting to a world
where race doesn't matter is acute.  Please tell me I am not the only
one to see this terrible irony.  We are all looking for that world where
race and colour simply don't matter.  Where the colour of one's skin and
the culture one is from is of no more interest than any other fact or
statistic about one's individual phenotypes or family history.  Taking
words and shining a spotlight on them as suddenly racial is a step away
from that world of "it just doesn't matter".  It is an affront to the
(what I hopefully believe is the) majority of people of all races and
cultures for whom colour simply doesn't matter.  And it is making a
racial issue where there was none before.  This isn't a step in the
right direction.  This is not accomplishing that goal.  This is the
opposite of accomplishing that goal. 

This action is wrong because it cannot accomplish its stated goal.  This
is wrong because it is making racial what was not.  This is wrong
because the connotations you giving the words are factually and
historically incorrect.  This is wrong, and that should be self evident
to every single one of you. 

Kurt Fitzner

On 2020-07-10 01:00, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> IMPORTANT NOTICE 
> 
> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to 
> welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist. 
> 
> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
> 
> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to 
> Committed revision 1879456.
> 
> If you are using trunk, there may be

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Luis E. Muñoz


On 14 Jul 2020, at 10:10, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

Kevin,

If my words or position had any chance of modifying course, I would 
certainly do so again. But as you say further down, the "hullabaloo" of 
people trying to present other points of view, is pointless.



Luis, the article I quoted was well research and included expert
citations.  I'd be interested if you can find me one that says it 
isn't
racially-charged with expert citations, please.  Especially one that 
has

citations almost 50 years old that mention the problem.


I meant actual research, where they reach out to affected populations, 
poll them and actually go through data to reach a conclusion. I am 
biased here with being an engineer and all, but that is the kind of 
evidence I would like to see.


Quoting editorial pieces will lead us nowhere.


The PMC voted to make the changes and make the changes 100% backwards
compatible for no less than a year.  They also won't be considered 
for

removal until SA 4.1 is released.  Therefore, to me the hullabaloo is
fairly pointless.  People stuck in the past who insist on not 
changing

have that choice.

The ONLY technical battle worth discussing is way down the road and
that's whether enough movement has been made by 4.1 that delaying the
removal of backwards compatibility.


Understood. I will shut up now. Thanks for your time.

-lem

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Gary Smith

The technical merit is simple, it's not broken, don't fix it.

There is no technical merit to be achieved here.  I feel that a lot of the 
argument here is just that.

The is merely a moral merit.

I think these types of changes should be used for new projects, but for 
existing projects like SA the risk versus reward might be too high.  Will SA 
live long if the implantation fails and takes down a couple systems for notable 
companies?  If email fails because of a small change you risk hurting the 
project more than promoting it.  
I think this moral merit change is splitting this community at this point, and 
that is how we kill projects.  

Now I'm not weighing in on whether this change is right or wrong from a 
geopolitical point of view and that's just a rabbit hole for absolute 
interpretation by the observers (what offends one does not offend the other, 
vice versa).  You will never please 100% of the people 100% of the time, you 
will only ever please the loudest or the ones that would cause the most trouble 
(these are just general observations of life).

Hopefully this is not the hill SA dies on.

-Original Message-
From: jdow  
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 3:07 AM
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org; Marc Roos ; 
kmcgrail 
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve 
language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does not 
solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve 
anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same. 
Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) want. 
The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what they 
see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and 
will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think 
about it.

{o.o}

On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
>   
> 
> 
> 
>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you
>> will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when you post.
> 
> You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to 
> judge whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise 
> questions here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC 
> should disqualify your vote.
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Luis, the article I quoted was well research and included expert
citations.  I'd be interested if you can find me one that says it isn't
racially-charged with expert citations, please.  Especially one that has
citations almost 50 years old that mention the problem.

> The vote of the PMC is being presented as an unsurmountable, immovable
> design from the gods that need to be followed by all. I think the PMC
> would be very wise to recognize that their prior vote lacked in
> consideration to all the positions and should be reconsidered after an
> appropriate opportunity to internalize the arguments that have been
> presented. After all, it has been recognized by some defenders of the
> term replacement, that this action is a mere gesture devoid of actual
> ability to change the real underlying problem – which is not
> constrained to the US, as some mentioned.

The PMC voted to make the changes and make the changes 100% backwards
compatible for no less than a year.  They also won't be considered for
removal until SA 4.1 is released.  Therefore, to me the hullabaloo is
fairly pointless.  People stuck in the past who insist on not changing
have that choice.

The ONLY technical battle worth discussing is way down the road and
that's whether enough movement has been made by 4.1 that delaying the
removal of backwards compatibility.

Regards,
KAM

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
kmcgr...@apache.org

Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Luis E. Muñoz


On 14 Jul 2020, at 9:24, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:


Here's a well researched
and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The 
abstract
says it very well: "This commentary addresses the widespread use of 
racist
language in discussions concerning predatory publishing. Examples 
include
terminology such as blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep. The use 
of
such terms does not merely reflect a racist culture, but also serves 
to

legitimize and perpetuate it."


You might want to note that it was included in JMLA Vol 106, No 4 (2018) 
in the **Commentary** section, along with pieces such as


"Using Slack to communicate with medical students"
"The relative citation ratio: what is it and why should medical 
librarians care?"
"Transforming the systematic review service: a team-based model to 
support the educational needs of researchers"

and
"How to earn a reputation as a great partner"

So yeah, quoting a magazine article on a scientific-sounding source is 
great and all, but perhaps the citation is not as authoritative as you 
think it is. If you actually go and read the paper, you will see that 
the "evidence" the authors present is based on other people's similarly 
sourced lists. There are no surveys, polls or other mechanisms to query 
the actual sentiment of the allegedly affected population. I also have 
to note that this piece was not peer reviewed, so there was no checks 
for methodology or accuracy – why would there need to be one, it's 
commentary after all.


The quote provides proof that the topic is controversial. Not surprising 
judging by the length of the threads. I think it is also clear that 
there are two well defined poles on the issue.


Dismissing those that oppose this change as "socially insensitive" or 
"racists", as has been seen in previous messages, is a transparent 
attempt to demonize the opposition. The same can be said of those 
dismissing the group that wants to edit the terms. Both group have their 
own motivations and I am pretty sure that each believe their motivations 
to be good. I believe so about my own and I'm sure you are the same.


The vote of the PMC is being presented as an unsurmountable, immovable 
design from the gods that need to be followed by all. I think the PMC 
would be very wise to recognize that their prior vote lacked in 
consideration to all the positions and should be reconsidered after an 
appropriate opportunity to internalize the arguments that have been 
presented. After all, it has been recognized by some defenders of the 
term replacement, that this action is a mere gesture devoid of actual 
ability to change the real underlying problem – which is not 
constrained to the US, as some mentioned.


Best regards

-lem

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

We'll have to agree to disagree.  To me it is clearly racially charged
language and you are cherry picking your sources.  Here's a well researched
and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The abstract
says it very well: "This commentary addresses the widespread use of racist
language in discussions concerning predatory publishing. Examples include
terminology such as blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep. The use of
such terms does not merely reflect a racist culture, but also serves to
legitimize and perpetuate it."

I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social
issue, not a political issue.  However, I didn't do so unilaterally because
that's not how projects at Apache work.

When the time comes for a 4.0 release, we, meaning the project management
commitment, will follow our well documented voting procedures to create and
approve a release announcement.  I have no interest in causing strife but
if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, I will call it a duck.
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:49 AM Rupert Gallagher 
wrote:

>
> > racially-charged nature of blacklist
>
> There is no such thing.
>
> Black list originates from black book, that is a book with white pages and
> black cover, with black ink, where sins are listed in haven for you to be
> judged upon.
>
> On the colour of the cover, it is black because that's how old leather
> turns out to be.
>
> On the colour of ink, try writing white ink on black paper if you can...
>
> Stop using SA to push your political agenda. When v4 comes out, do not
> dare writing that *we* decided to *change* blacklist into blocklist because
> of the "racially-charged nature" of it, because it is not, because we said
> so, and because you are forcing it.
>
> Have the courage to put your own name under your own decision, do not
> blame us for it.
>
>
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Bob D


On 7/14/20 8:15 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on 
referring to them as the /*_Apache Nation_*/ but otherwise, there are 
no issues with the Apache name.  We are proud to use the name Apache 
and hope that our great work as a foundation brings it the honor it 
deserves.


Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171



So out of curiosity Mr. McGrail,
for the sake of consistency and common courtesy to Native Americans 
wishes, don't you need to modify your signature line ?

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Rupert Gallagher

> racially-charged nature of blacklist

There is no such thing.

Black list originates from black book, that is a book with white pages and 
black cover, with black ink, where sins are listed in haven for you to be 
judged upon.

On the colour of the cover, it is black because that's how old leather turns 
out to be.

On the colour of ink, try writing white ink on black paper if you can...

Stop using SA to push your political agenda. When v4 comes out, do not dare 
writing that *we* decided to *change* blacklist into blocklist because of the 
"racially-charged nature" of it, because it is not, because we said so, and 
because you are forcing it.

Have the courage to put your own name under your own decision, do not blame us 
for it.

 Original Message 
On 14 Jul 2020, 16:48, Kevin A. McGrail < kmcgr...@apache.org> wrote:
Your association is just antiquated. I can't remember exactly when but 
blocklist has been getting used to replace the racially-charged nature of 
blacklist. Here's a public example from 2012: 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy

This verbiage change isn't new and the impetus wasn't political nor 
American-driven. It's just the right time to do it AND we have 4.0's release 
giving us the perfect opportunity.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:28 AM Marc Roos  wrote:

> Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms
to change.
> After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and
block which
> also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc. consistent
> so there is less upheaval.

I associate BL with blacklist. If that is how the general perception is,
and most of what is written on the internet is relating to, I don't see
how you can maintain those acronyms.
Allow/deny is also commonly used in linux so one could argue, it is
adapting to standards.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread shanew


I would argue that welcome is better than allow in many contexts,
including SpamAssassin.  After all, w.*list isn't just used to indicate
something is allowed, but to indicate that we actively want to receive
the email in question (by lowering its score).

You allow a maintenance worker into your apartment, but you welcome
a friend


On Tue, 14 Jul 2020, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:


Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms to
change.  After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and
block which also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc.
consistent so there is less upheaval.
Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:08 AM Marc Roos  wrote:
   

  > I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to
  allowlist/blocklist
  because it is more descriptive.

  Allow/deny list sounds more logical.





--
Public key #7BBC68D9 at| Shane Williams
http://pgp.mit.edu/|  System Admin - UT CompSci
=--+---
All syllogisms contain three lines |  sha...@shanew.net
Therefore this is not a syllogism  | www.ischool.utexas.edu/~shanew

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Your association is just antiquated.  I can't remember exactly when but
blocklist has been getting used to replace the racially-charged nature of
blacklist.  Here's a public example from 2012:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy

This verbiage change isn't new and the impetus wasn't political nor
American-driven.  It's just the right time to do it AND we have 4.0's
release giving us the perfect opportunity.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:28 AM Marc Roos  wrote:

>
>
>
> > Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms
> to change.
> > After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and
> block which
> > also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc. consistent
> > so there is less upheaval.
>
> I associate BL with blacklist. If that is how the general perception is,
> and most of what is written on the internet is relating to, I don't see
> how you can maintain those acronyms.
> Allow/deny is also commonly used in linux so one could argue, it is
> adapting to standards.
>
>
>
>
>
>

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

 


> Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms 
to change. 
> After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and 
block which
> also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc. consistent 
> so there is less upheaval.

I associate BL with blacklist. If that is how the general perception is, 
and most of what is written on the internet is relating to, I don't see 
how you can maintain those acronyms.
Allow/deny is also commonly used in linux so one could argue, it is 
adapting to standards.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms to
change.  After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome
and block which also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc.
consistent so there is less upheaval.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:08 AM Marc Roos  wrote:

>
>
> > I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist
> because it is more descriptive.
>
> Allow/deny list sounds more logical.
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Axb


On 7/14/20 4:05 PM, Dave Goodrich wrote:

I can't stop it from happening, so be it.


Here's an idea..
if enough voices are loud enough... Make yourself heard, press, twitter, 
etc.. use the same channels which are being used to favour the change.


Or are there too many ppl who fear being in the wrong side of history.

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

 

> I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist 
because it is more descriptive.

Allow/deny list sounds more logical.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Dave Goodrich

Semantics, I chose the wrong project name but the point is still there. That 
the Apache Nation doesn't mind is not important in today's culture, I know 
black people who do not feel offended by the term blacklist. 

I do not believe the term blacklist had any racial origins, until white people 
assigned race to it. If it was not racist before, and you make it racist now 
just so you can change it, isn't that a bit elitist? Even racist? 

I do not see the problem you are trying to solve. I do not know w hat black 
schools have no IT training programs because the terms being used offend the 
student body. I do not understand how the use of these terms is harming the 
industry and how changing these terms will open doors to people of color that 
have been closed until now. 

I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist because it is 
more descriptive. Changing them because they are racially charged is silly. BLM 
is not going to give you a big hurrah on twitter for your efforts. 

I can't stop it from happening, so be it. 

DAve 

- On Jul 14, 2020, at 9:15 AM, Kevin A. McGrail  
wrote: 

> Dave,
> The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by 
> being
> less offensive and more aware of the language we use without thinking.

> Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
> Project with the Apache Software Foundation. This is just an argument fallacy.
> My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the ASF founders,
> reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache Nation council with 
> all
> being good. The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on
> referring to them as the Apache Nation but otherwise, there are no issues with
> the Apache name. We are proud to use the name Apache and hope that our great
> work as a foundation brings it the honor it deserves.

> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail 
> ]
> - 703.798.0171

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich < [
> mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org | dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote:

>> No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
>> others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.

>> If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must 
>> change
>> the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are not
>> important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you are 
>> not a
>> native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be wrong.

>> DAve

>> - On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [
>> mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org | kmcgr...@apache.org ] > wrote:

>>> I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language was 
>>> an
>>> added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially charged
>>> language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would
>>> allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it
>>> up: [
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
>>> |
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
>>> ]
>>> Regards,
>>> KAM
>>> --
>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | 
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail ]
>>> - 703.798.0171

>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich < [
>>> mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org | dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote:

 The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

 I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to 
 solution
 for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I 
 even
 understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go 
 along
 or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more
 clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and 
 pandering.

 I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

 DAve

 - On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [
 mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org | kmcgr...@apache.org ] > wrote:

> Marc and others about voting,

> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management 
> committee aka
> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April 
> with a
> vote in early May by the PMC.

> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore 
> messages that
> use them.

> To you and others spouting off,

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Ralph Seichter

* Kevin A. McGrail:

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.

"The horror... The horror..." (W. Kurtz) :-)

Seriously, what's with the drama? This discussion already has emotions
running high.

As I mentioned before: What may or may not count as "racially charged"
in America does not automatically apply to the rest of the world. It is
quite obvious from this thread that Americans don't even agree among
themselves. Also, remember that American history does not automatically
interest the whole globe.

Announcing changes for which there are no technical necessities is prone
to cause discussions, and that's a Good Thing(TM) in my book. You may
have voted earlier, but apparently a wider public has only now found out
about these changes (which includes myself). I don't have a vote, but
I'll "risk" (SCNR) commenting publicly on what I consider unnecessary
and, in fact, a harmful attempt to restrict use of the English language.
It is, in my experience, not the most nuanced language anyway.

-Ralph

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread micah anderson

Eric Broch  writes:

> As I've pointed out in previous posts the proponents are under a delusion.

It is fascinating that the person who cried about ad hominem attacks so
much resorts to the very same.

Every time Eric Broch writes to me off-list, or on list about this
subject, I donate another $10 to a cultural marxist organization in his
name. Thanks Eric for your continued support of BLM!

-- 
micah

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Eric Broch


jdow,

Change: Words 'blacklist/whitelist' to something politically correct 
(hope and change).


Proponents: Those who want this change

Opponents: Those who don't want this change

Though we agree in the end--we're both opponents--I believe arguing the 
technical merits is useless (not with me, with the proponents) since the 
decision by the proponents wasn't based in the technical, it was based 
in the social.


As I've pointed out in previous posts the proponents are under a delusion.

The multicultural agenda is doomed to fail because it seeks to unify 
people who think differently as is evidenced on this list. Look at 
Europe and the U.S. now. There has been years of the multicultural 
agenda pushed on these cultures and it has brought no unity but upheaval 
and it will only get worse. The proponents are bringing about their own 
demise. It may not happen immediately, but it will happen.


We've been accused of making this political. We haven't. The politics 
were forced on us. The reasons of the proponents bear this out. When we 
respond politically,  we're charged with making it political or told to 
go away.


How does on reason with people like this. As I've found out, you can't.

Unity is achieved among people who have the same mind.

Eric Broch



On 7/14/2020 4:07 AM, jdow wrote:
Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty 
does not solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not 
going to solve anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should 
be made just the same. Then the open source developers will go off and 
do what they (think they) want. The job is to lead them to thinking 
they want something different for what they see as good reasons. 
Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and will not 
provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think 
about it.


{o.o}

On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:





To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly

archived mailing list and you

will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.


You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
disqualify your vote.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Dave,

The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by
being less offensive and more aware of the language we use without
thinking.

Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
Project with the Apache Software Foundation.  This is just an argument
fallacy.  My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the
ASF founders, reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache
Nation council with all being good.  The only change is that in 2009, they
asked us to standardize on referring to them as the Apache Nation but
otherwise, there are no issues with the Apache name.  We are proud to use
the name Apache and hope that our great work as a foundation brings it the
honor it deserves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich 
wrote:

> No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
> others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.
>
> If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must
> change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both
> are not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if
> you are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply
> be wrong.
>
> DAve
>
> - On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail 
> wrote:
>
> I think you are reading other people's take on things.  Clearer language
> was an added bonus but never the reason.  The reason was to remove racially
> charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major
> bump would allow for disruption.  Further, this article was what reminded
> me to bring it up:
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich 
> wrote:
>
>> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>>
>> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to
>> solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this
>> issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for
>> clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me
>> this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This
>> is posturing and pandering.
>>
>> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>>
>> DAve
>>
>> - On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Marc and others about voting,
>>
>> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned
>> by demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management
>> committee aka the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in
>> early April with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>>
>> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore
>> messages that use them.
>>
>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
>> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
>> Consider that when you post.
>>
>> Regards, KAM
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is
>>>
>>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>>> > SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>>> > done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>>> >
>>>
>>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>>> democratic.
>>>
>>
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Dave Goodrich

No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and 
others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand. 

If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must 
change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are 
not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you are 
not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be wrong. 

DAve 

- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail  
wrote: 

> I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language was an
> added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially charged
> language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would
> allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it
> up: [
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> |
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> ]
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail 
> ]
> - 703.798.0171

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich < [
> mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org | dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote:

>> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

>> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to 
>> solution
>> for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I 
>> even
>> understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go along
>> or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more
>> clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.

>> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

>> DAve

>> - On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [
>> mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org | kmcgr...@apache.org ] > wrote:

>>> Marc and others about voting,

>>> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
>>> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee 
>>> aka
>>> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with 
>>> a
>>> vote in early May by the PMC.

>>> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages 
>>> that
>>> use them.

>>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
>>> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that 
>>> when
>>> you post.

>>> Regards, KAM

>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu |
>>> m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote:

 > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

 > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
 > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
 > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
 > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
 > and your huffing is not going to stop it.


 If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
 voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
 Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
 democratic.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

I think you are reading other people's take on things.  Clearer language
was an added bonus but never the reason.  The reason was to remove racially
charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major
bump would allow for disruption.  Further, this article was what reminded
me to bring it up:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich 
wrote:

> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>
> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to
> solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this
> issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for
> clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me
> this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This
> is posturing and pandering.
>
> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>
> DAve
>
> - On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail 
> wrote:
>
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management committee
> aka the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April
> with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages
> that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
> Consider that when you post.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos  wrote:
>
>>
>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is
>>
>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>> > SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>> > done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>> >
>>
>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>> democratic.
>>
>
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Dave Goodrich

The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me? 

I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to solution 
for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I even 
understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go along 
or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more 
clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering. 

I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed. 

DAve 

- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail  
wrote: 

> Marc and others about voting,

> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka
> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
> vote in early May by the PMC.

> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages 
> that
> use them.

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when
> you post.

> Regards, KAM

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu |
> m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote:

>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.


>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>> democratic.

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave



> Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument.

There is no technical discussion here afaik.

> Getting nasty does not solve technical problems, which we have here. 
Attacks are not 
> going to solve anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should 
be made just the same. 

There is no attack. As I am not discriminating on the level of race 
origin (not native english), I am also not discriminating on the level 
of intelligence. Everyone is born as they are. 

Kevin should be told that jumping to such conclusions as "being on the 
wrong side of history" shows a lack of thinking. It is obvious that 
nobody will be able to predict the future. Logics just dictates that one 
could expect more of this type of reasoning, which makes me doubt PMC 
decision making. This is not being nasty, this applying logics.

I am not judging this (I do not see myself qualified), that is why I 
mentioned that research from universities by people with proper 
expertise in this area should be left to do this. This is to me the only 
sound solution in this matter.

The irony in this, is that this type of behaviour (not listening to 
others, advising to fork, not taking time to really think about what you 
are doing) looks to me very similar to how some of these police officers 
are misbehaving.

Thus Kevin, PMC start thinking, and least of all, do not enforce your 
'limited' view upon others. Maybe the apache software foundation can 
start a project with Stanford or Columbia to really research how this 
affects ethnic minorities. I doubt anyone will challenge that outcome.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Axb


On 7/14/20 12:55 PM, jdow wrote:
I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick to 
technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.


from where I sit, it will be very hard or there are no such merits / goals.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave


On 20200714 03:46:14, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:54 AM Kevin A. McGrail  wrote:


I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning.  This is a public 
forum.  The public including search engines and reporters and employers and 
family can read it.  Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and 
thousands of copies.


   In my book, that is veiled intimidation.


None the less it is a fact. And that fact does tend to keep normally cool minds 
from losing it. It's worth reminding ourselves, (looking annoyed, frustrated, 
and perturbed in equal measures) especially in this time of people not forgiving 
statements made 40 or 50 years ago as if people's opinions and behavior never 
really changes with maturity. That isn't "right". It;s a fact we all must live 
with until society matures a little more.


I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick to 
technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.


{o.o}

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Of course the License allows forking.  We are an Apache Project and use the
ASLv2.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:43 Mauricio Tavares  wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 6:07 AM jdow  wrote:
> >
> > Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty
> does not
> > solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to
> solve
> > anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the
> same.
> > Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think
> they) want.
> > The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for
> what they
> > see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical
> failure and
> > will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should
> think about it.
> >
>   I would like to add that if this is perceived to cause technical
> issues certain members of the community believe outweighs any
> perceived non-technical benefits, these members have the right to
> check if the current spamassassin license allows for forking. And if
> that is the case, they have the right to fork it out.
>
> After all, someone said "A right delayed is a right denied."
>
> > {o.o}
> >
> > On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> > > archived mailing list and you
> > >> will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when you post.
> > >
> > > You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to
> judge
> > > whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> > > here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> > > disqualify your vote.
> > >
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Mauricio Tavares

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:54 AM Kevin A. McGrail  wrote:
>
> I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning.  This is a public 
> forum.  The public including search engines and reporters and employers and 
> family can read it.  Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and 
> thousands of copies.
>
  In my book, that is veiled intimidation.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Mauricio Tavares

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 6:07 AM jdow  wrote:
>
> Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does 
> not
> solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve
> anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same.
> Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) 
> want.
> The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what 
> they
> see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure 
> and
> will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think 
> about it.
>
  I would like to add that if this is perceived to cause technical
issues certain members of the community believe outweighs any
perceived non-technical benefits, these members have the right to
check if the current spamassassin license allows for forking. And if
that is the case, they have the right to fork it out.

After all, someone said "A right delayed is a right denied."

> {o.o}
>
> On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> > archived mailing list and you
> >> will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when you post.
> >
> > You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
> > whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> > here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> > disqualify your vote.
> >

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Guido Goluke, MajorLabel

Yes, history is written by people, not one person. Nor should one person think 
(in my opinion) that they have a grasp at what will be perceived as the ‘wrong 
and right’ side of history while that history is still to be written.

 

And last of all, such standing points should never be used to try and persuade 
others to keep silent or keep their opinions to themselves. People have died 
for that right and as Obama said: I will fight to keep the right to speak your 
mind alive, even if that mind spews horrible lies about me (which is not 
exactly what he said but to that extend somewhere).

 

Van: Kevin A. McGrail  
Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 11:55
Aan: Guido Goluke, MajorLabel 
CC: m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu; users ; jdow 

Onderwerp: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve 
language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

 

I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning.  This is a public 
forum.  The public including search engines and reporters and employers and 
family can read it.  Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and 
thousands of copies.

 

I believe others who disagree with removing racially charged language now might 
regret being on the wrong side of recorded history. History, though, is written 
by people and not gods.  

 

But I will stop posting about this.  I, like others, am here to stop spammers.  
I wish I could drive all the energy here into that goal.

 

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 05:36 Guido Goluke, MajorLabel mailto:i...@majorlabel.nl> > wrote:

I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s poisoned 
already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming someone who 
disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You have an opinion, 
and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does not 
solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve 
anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same. 
Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) want. 
The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what they 
see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and 
will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think about it.


{o.o}

On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
  





To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly

archived mailing list and you

will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when you post.


You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
disqualify your vote.

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

 



> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly 
archived mailing list and you
> will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when you post.

You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge 
whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions 
here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should 
disqualify your vote.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning.  This is a public
forum.  The public including search engines and reporters and employers and
family can read it.  Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and
thousands of copies.

I believe others who disagree with removing racially charged language now
might regret being on the wrong side of recorded history. History, though,
is written by people and not gods.

But I will stop posting about this.  I, like others, am here to stop
spammers.  I wish I could drive all the energy here into that goal.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 05:36 Guido Goluke, MajorLabel 
wrote:

> I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s
> poisoned already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming
> someone who disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You
> have an opinion, and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.
>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave





On 20200714 02:03:06, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

Marc and others about voting,

The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned by 
demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management committee aka 
the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a 
vote in early May by the PMC.


That raises a question that deserves an answer. Who votes on whether somebody 
has earned merit? I suspect it is a closed system. {o.o}


To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that 
use them.


I agree with you here. I am trying to keep my arguments on the technical merit 
of this change. I am trying to get them to reconsider their course of action. I 
am trying not to lay into them the way I'd love to. And I believe I have slipped 
a little. And I am extremely skeptical this change is going to make the project 
"more inclusive" and draw in new developers, which I believe was a stated 
non-technical aim.


To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived 
mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when 
you post.


That would be wise. But, be aware that this may be taken as a combative threat 
by some people. Once you are trying to appease everybody you are doomed to 
failure. You find yourself trying to second guess which way to jump regarding 
how many of which people will be alienated. It is lose-lose. And it's 
heartbreaking to watch.



Regards, KAM


{o.o}

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Guido Goluke, MajorLabel

I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s poisoned 
already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming someone who 
disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You have an opinion, 
and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.

Van: Kevin A. McGrail  
Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 11:03
Aan: Marc Roos 
CC: users ; jdow 
Onderwerp: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve 
language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Marc and others about voting,

The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned by 
demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management committee aka 
the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a 
vote in early May by the PMC.  

To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that 
use them.  

To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived 
mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when 
you post.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos mailto:m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu> > wrote:

> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is 

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache 
> SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement 
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is 
> done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits 
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not 
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done? 
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor 
democratic.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Brent Clark


Sir, you are being awfully rude and personal.

Regards
Brent

On 2020/07/14 10:56, Marc Roos wrote:


It looks to me, like nobody is taking time to think. Just telling
someone to fork code is rediculous and shows contempt for users. If
something is opensource it does not mean you can act without any
obligations, that is naïve perspective.
If you decide to bring a kids soccer team for free to a match in the
weekend. You also do not cancel last minute with the excuse, I offered
to drive for free so I do not have any obligation. Start using your
brains there, and take time to think things thru.




-Original Message-
From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org]
Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 10:40
To: Axb
Cc: SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

It is open source software, Axb.  If you think it will take.you hundreds
of hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can
easily add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes
out.

That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.

Regards, KAM


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb  wrote:

In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be
accounted
for. Thanks for that.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Marc and others about voting,

The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned by
demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management committee
aka the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April
with a vote in early May by the PMC.

To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages
that use them.

To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
Consider that when you post.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos  wrote:

>
> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is
>
> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> > SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> > done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
> >
>
> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
> democratic.
>

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave



It looks to me, like nobody is taking time to think. Just telling 
someone to fork code is rediculous and shows contempt for users. If 
something is opensource it does not mean you can act without any 
obligations, that is naïve perspective. 
If you decide to bring a kids soccer team for free to a match in the 
weekend. You also do not cancel last minute with the excuse, I offered 
to drive for free so I do not have any obligation. Start using your 
brains there, and take time to think things thru. 




-Original Message-
From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org] 
Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 10:40
To: Axb
Cc: SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] 
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

It is open source software, Axb.  If you think it will take.you hundreds 
of hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can 
easily add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes 
out.  

That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.  
With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even 
distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it. 

Regards, KAM


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb  wrote:

In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be 
accounted 
for. Thanks for that.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Pedro David Marco

 i already opened a voting process here Marc...

LET's VOTE...

Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "BlackList" 
terms due to racism sensibilities?

-Pedro
On Tuesday, July 14, 2020, 09:51:29 AM GMT+2, Marc Roos 
 wrote:  

> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is 

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache 
> SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement 
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is 
> done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits 
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not 
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done? 
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor 
democratic.

Why is it you, who decides what is "racially-charged language", why 
don't you wait for some university researches being done, to see what 
"racially charged words" are, and what the implications are of using 
"racially charged words."

Why not keep dual support, so people do not need to change their 
configs? If the argument is not to use these terms, than a fresh install 
would comply with this.

You are part of the Apache software foundation what is even their stance 
on this subject? I can't imagine all projects are going to start 
modifying code, whatabout standards?

The haste with making this decision only shows incompetence. The problem 
with people in IT nowadays is that they decide on things they should not 
decide on. It is like a dentist, starting to do brain surgery. 

As I said your team is not qualified to make a decision on this subject, 
because you lack information and education on this subject. Stick to 
what you have been doing nothing more, nothing less.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

It is open source software, Axb.  If you think it will take.you hundreds of
hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can easily
add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes out.

That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb  wrote:

> In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be accounted
> for. Thanks for that.
>
>

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave



> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is 

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache 
> SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement 
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is 
> done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits 
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not 
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done? 
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor 
democratic.

Why is it you, who decides what is "racially-charged language", why 
don't you wait for some university researches being done, to see what 
"racially charged words" are, and what the implications are of using 
"racially charged words."

Why not keep dual support, so people do not need to change their 
configs? If the argument is not to use these terms, than a fresh install 
would comply with this.

You are part of the Apache software foundation what is even their stance 
on this subject? I can't imagine all projects are going to start 
modifying code, whatabout standards?

The haste with making this decision only shows incompetence. The problem 
with people in IT nowadays is that they decide on things they should not 
decide on. It is like a dentist, starting to do brain surgery. 

As I said your team is not qualified to make a decision on this subject, 
because you lack information and education on this subject. Stick to 
what you have been doing nothing more, nothing less.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread Axb


On 7/14/20 9:41 AM, jdow wrote:

On 20200714 00:31:19, @lbutlr wrote:

On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow  wrote:

How does this move improve the technical quality of the product
from the end users' perspective?


You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and
you have ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on
this any opinion that deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one
cares.

Stop it.


Am I being bullied because you cannot answer a simple question?

I've been keeping my mouth shut until somebody aims a shot at me. At
 least have the grace to admit your changes have zero technical
merit, may cause pain at the sysadmin and user level, and will happen
anyway because of some nebulous social goodness from it. (Hint,
betcha a nickle, my maximum bet, that it does not draw in more
minorities to the development effort. OTHER problems need to be
addressed at a social level.)



The sad thing about this is that while the changes may feed some egos 
and make suits happy, the load is put on people who won't be able to 
charge for the extra work. No client will be willing to cover these 
costs. Tech workforce will be pulled off real work to massage some egos.
In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be accounted 
for. Thanks for that.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave


On 20200714 00:31:19, @lbutlr wrote:

On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow  wrote:

How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end 
users' perspective?


You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and you have 
ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on this any opinion that 
deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one cares.

Stop it.


Am I being bullied because you cannot answer a simple question?

I've been keeping my mouth shut until somebody aims a shot at me. At least have 
the grace to admit your changes have zero technical merit, may cause pain at the 
sysadmin and user level, and will happen anyway because of some nebulous social 
goodness from it. (Hint, betcha a nickle, my maximum bet, that it does not draw 
in more minorities to the development effort. OTHER problems need to be 
addressed at a social level.)


{^_^}

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-14 Thread @lbutlr

On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow  wrote:
> How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end 
> users' perspective?

You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and you have 
ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on this any opinion that 
deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one cares.

Stop it.

-- 
The cat turned and tried to find a place of safety in the suit's
breastplate. He was beginning to doubt he'd make it through the
knight.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave


On 20200713 20:10:36, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

+pmc

So you are saying that to save somebody a passing bad feeling you are
throwing people under the bus who would have to edit scripts and pray.
What is the difference if it happens today or a year from now? What
Good Engineering Reason Is Served By This Pain?


Joanne,

I have no interest in debating you on this topic.

I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is
being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
and your huffing is not going to stop it.

The technical lift for a user will be an SQL query / perl one-liners to
search and replace your conf for things like whitelist_to to
welcomelist_to.  I'm sure the dev/user mailing list can come up with
some examples we can add to the UPGRADE file.  And if there are projects
that build on SA, they a year plus of warning to implement the coming
changes.  If you know of any programs/scripts that need help, point them
here or the dev list.

Regards,

KAM


user_prefs - every one will have to be edited to change names eventually. People 
will bitch when they have to edit their files. They will bitch of "root" goes in 
and edits the file for them (quite justifiably). Likely as not rules files will 
have to be repaired.


Engineering that is politically driven tends to be long term disasters. I've 
been around long enough to have seen it in action. Of course, that makes me an 
old irrelevant fossil. So you get to discover the same mistakes I discovered 
rather than benefit from inherited experience.


How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end 
users' perspective? It's a nightmare for sysadmins, "Do I save the customer the 
effort and modify HIS files or do I tell the customer she has to edit the arcane 
files?" One way he is damned for invading privacy. The other way he is ROUNDLY 
damned for making customer lives hardware. The change is not a long term win for 
anybody but those imagining "blacklist" and "whitelist" are racially related. 
Can't somebody just suggest they grow up? Or is that too good a technical 
quality solution?


{^_^}

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-13 Thread Kevin A. McGrail

On 7/13/2020 1:01 AM, Olivier wrote:
> That's exactely my point. SA is not just one stand alone software, it is
> deeply integrated into other pieces of software and lot of locally
> developped scripts and suff. And all this will have to be changed to
> satify a need of renaming.
>
> That is breaking things for the sake of breaking. And email server
> depends on enough number of pieces working well together, no need to
> break it on a whim.

Olivier and others, I am guessing you have not tested the trunk and the
changes for bz 7826 as backwards compatibility was handled as far as I
know.  There is no need to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt.  We went
to trouble to make rules and configuration lines work with aliases and
feature checks so nothing breaks because of this.  Further, the project
is committed to the backwards compatibility for at least 1 year after
4.0.0 is released AND not until 4.1.0 is released.

Regards,

KAM

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
kmcgr...@apache.org

Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-13 Thread Marc Roos



> I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I 
did not receive myself. 
> But at least one message is still missing. I will look into it.

Maybe you blacklisted some guy? ;)

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Olivier

jdow  writes:

> I am still trying to figure out the rationale for forcing everybody out there 
> with established lists of "whitelist_from_rcvd" and "blacklist_from_rcvd" to 
> go 
> out there and edit EVERYBODY's user_prefs or explain to users they must do 
> this 
> themselves. *I* can do this easily enough and call them foolist_from_rcvd and 
> barlist_from_rcvd if needed. I am thinking if people with setups in small 
> business offices that have to invade privacy or explain how so that 
> user_prefs 
> can be changed. And how about all the ancillary scripts that train spam that 
> also have to be changed?
>
> This is something that is not broken, currently works, that some dolt is 
> trying 
> to fix. It's better you call that person a dolt than try to change the world 
> and 
> break everything. Making this change is dumb. It is counter-productive. It is 
> even destructive. Just Say No.

That's exactely my point. SA is not just one stand alone software, it is
deeply integrated into other pieces of software and lot of locally
developped scripts and suff. And all this will have to be changed to
satify a need of renaming.

That is breaking things for the sake of breaking. And email server
depends on enough number of pieces working well together, no need to
break it on a whim.

Olivier

--

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Loren Wilton


Cecil Westerhof:

I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
did not receive myself. But at least one message is still missing. I
will look into it.

By the way. All my emails where send with the same account.


Cecil, I do not know what all you sent, but looking in my received mail for 
this list and thread, I see the following timestamps I received with you 
listed as the sender:


7/1023:29
7/1023:41
7/1023:49
7/1023:49
7/1023:59
7/1212:25
7/1214:29
7/1215:43
7/1215:52The mail I'm replying to

All times GMT-8 or mabye -9, depending on whether we are on standard or 
daylight time. (I don't keep track, my clock does.)


   Loren

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

"Kevin A. McGrail"  writes:

> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof  wrote:
>
>  Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
>  one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
> Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply 
> don't have moderation and we use a mailing list
> software that you would receive an email back if your post was moderated if 
> we did.
>
> Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list? 
>
> Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list?   
> Maybe you just didn't get a copy back. 
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof

I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
did not receive myself. But at least one message is still missing. I
will look into it.

By the way. All my emails where send with the same account.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

"Kevin A. McGrail"  writes:

> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof  wrote:
>
>  Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
>  one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
> Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply 
> don't have moderation and we use a mailing list
> software that you would receive an email back if your post was moderated if 
> we did.
>
> Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list? 
>
> Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list?   
> Maybe you just didn't get a copy back. 
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof
>
> If it is missing, can you provide the mail log entry showing the DSN / queue 
> id. so I can open a ticket with ASF Infrastructure?

That is really strange then. I should have been to bed a few hours
ago. I will dive into it later.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Kevin A. McGrail

On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof  wrote:

> Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
> one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
>
Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply
don't have moderation and we use a mailing list software that you would
receive an email back if your post was moderated if we did.

Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list?

Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list?
 Maybe you just didn't get a copy back.
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof

If it is missing, can you provide the mail log entry showing the DSN /
queue id. so I can open a ticket with ASF Infrastructure?

Regards,
KAM

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Kevin A. McGrail

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 1:11 AM Axb  wrote:

> I voted aginst it, loudly.
>
>
> On 7/11/20 4:35 AM, Noel Butler wrote:
> > Who is "we"
> >
> > Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change
> > and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries
> > just because theirs is fucked up?
> >
> > I want names
> >
> > I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and
> > who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.
> >
> > I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and
> > contributors to the project think
> >
> > I await your silence
>

Noel, the vote was made by the Apache SpamAssassin Project Management
Committee which is the "we" in this context.  The vote passed with only +1
votes.  I will not disclose how any specific member voted except myself
where not only did I instigate the topic but voted +1.  We certainly care
about our users / committers and the changes are backwards compatible until
at least Apache SpamAssassin 4.1's release.

Alex, the PMC vote thread at
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r4a0b93d417d4fd36850eb86b4acb67bf6886e7b16de47d1756333873%40%3Cprivate.spamassassin.apache.org%3E
does not show you voting on the topic nor commenting on the results
threard.  I only show you weighing in about 2.5 months later on bugzilla.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

"Kevin A. McGrail"  writes:

>> is there a moderator.  or do i have to unsubscribe
> &
>> I think there is, because several responses I send [didn't show up]
>
> No, there isn't a moderator of this list except for new subscriptions and a 
> person or two who posted egregiously enough to be
> banned.

Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
one you responded on would not have appeared either.

> This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to
> debate politics, go somewhere else.

I do not, but if blatant inaccuracies are spit out I sometimes
respond.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Kevin A. McGrail

> is there a moderator.  or do i have to unsubscribe
&
> I think there is, because several responses I send [didn't show up]

No, there isn't a moderator of this list except for new subscriptions and a
person or two who posted egregiously enough to be banned.

This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to debate
politics, go somewhere else.  If you want to stop bastard spammers, this is
the place.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Charles Sprickman

Jordan says to clean your room.

> On Jul 12, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Eric Broch  wrote:
> 
> Again, you've made my point.
> 
> All you have is a ad hominem and strawman arguments both logical fallacies.
> 
> You can't debate so call for my removal from this list.
> 
> 
> On 7/12/2020 12:40 PM, micah anderson wrote:
>> Eric Broch  writes:
>> 
>>> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
>>> we've/I've done no such thing.
>> hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:
>> 
>>> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
>>> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
>>> are now groveling to the political Marxists.
>> Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
>> theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
>> victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
>> account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
>> poster's point.
>> 
>>> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
>>> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
>>> What's next?
>> Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
>> Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
>> Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
>> psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
>> renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
>> destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
>> look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
>> Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
>> you had brainwashed into you, but...
>> 
>> Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
>> Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
>> column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
>> that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
>> of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
>> war (William Lind).
>> 
>> So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
>> here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
>> needs to be next.
>> 
>> If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.
>> 
>> plonk
>>

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Eric Broch


Again, you've made my point.

All you have is a ad hominem and strawman arguments both logical fallacies.

You can't debate so call for my removal from this list.


On 7/12/2020 12:40 PM, micah anderson wrote:

Eric Broch  writes:


2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
we've/I've done no such thing.

hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:


The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
are now groveling to the political Marxists.

Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
poster's point.


Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
What's next?

Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
you had brainwashed into you, but...

Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
war (William Lind).

So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
needs to be next.

If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.

plonk

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

jason hirsh  writes:

> is there a moderator.  or do i have to unsubscribe
>
>> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>> 
>> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
>> 
>> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
>> 
>> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or 
>> politics.

I think there is, because several responses I send where I showed how
the things the 'enlightened' people accuse the 'extreme right' people
of is just looking into the mirror did not appear.
What I find strange, because in my -of-course biased opinion- where a
lot less shocking as published versions on both sides of the spectrum.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Benny Pedersen


rtroy skrev den 2020-07-12 20:06:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:

...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.


send it to /dev/null then, instaed of reply


Isn't there a list moderator out there?


most people have hollidays right now


We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal
problems or politics.


so stop self ?

if its get to much opensource debate anyone can unsubscribe

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread micah anderson

Eric Broch  writes:

> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when 
> we've/I've done no such thing.

hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:

> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
> are now groveling to the political Marxists.

Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
poster's point.

> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
> What's next?

Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
you had brainwashed into you, but...

Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
war (William Lind).

So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
needs to be next.

If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.

plonk

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Axb


It's Sunday, Moderators also have lives...
Stay inside, Stay safe.

On 7/12/20 8:10 PM, jason hirsh wrote:

is there a moderator.  or do i have to unsubscribe


On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy  wrote:


On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:

...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.

Isn't there a list moderator out there?

We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or 
politics.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Bill Cole


On 12 Jul 2020, at 14:06, rtroy wrote:


Isn't there a list moderator out there?


Any moderation decisions are inherently few and slow. That is by design. 
I believe there has been all of one (1) material moderation action in 
the lifetime of this list, barring someone who continues to this day to 
reply to the occasional message here offlist.


--
Bill Cole
b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread John Hardin


On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, jason hirsh wrote:


is there a moderator.  or do i have to unsubscribe


I'd suggest that's an overreaction. This is an unusual storm on the list, 
it will pass.


Unfortunately politics is somewhat unavoidable in discussing this topic, 
because there is no *technical* reason for the change, and there are good 
technical reasons for *not* making the change (at least, not 
precipitously).


--
 John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
 jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org
 key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C  AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
---
  What the hell is an "Aluminum Falcon"??-- Emperor Palpatine
---
 8 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread jason hirsh

is there a moderator.  or do i have to unsubscribe

> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
> 
> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
> 
> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
> 
> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or 
> politics.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread rtroy




On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:

...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.

Isn't there a list moderator out there?

We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems 
or politics.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread Eric Broch


Thank you, you've made my point.

1) Dismiss what you don't like to hear and give me a timeout, that's mature.

2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when 
we've/I've done no such thing. The maintainers of the list have listened 
to those who've turned something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into 
something political and are now groveling to the political Marxists. 
Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that 
whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block? 
What's next?


3) As I made clear to someone else who used ad hominem against me, I'll 
debate you any time on any of these issues, and I'll do it offsite. But 
like this other person you'll refuse because all you have is ad hominem. 
It's what you're reduced to when you're position has been destroyed.



On 7/12/2020 10:47 AM, rtroy wrote:


Hi Yall,

I've been a member of this list for years but this is my first post to 
the list.


Given the great many posts already posted, I'll at least try and 
contribute something useful.


First, whenever script re-writing might become necessary to change 
something like, say "BumList" to "BanList", I had written a utility to 
do this and then, years later, the mysql team wrote a better version. 
...I wouldn't use their database - I'm a Postgres guy, worked for 
Stonebraker at Berkeley when Postgres was developed in the '90s - BUT, 
their "replace" utility is fantastic. ...On one of my boxes, it is 
provided by: mysql-selinux-1.0.0-8.fc30.noarch


I had also written my own file rename utility, but again, someone did 
it better. Apparently since 2011, rename has been a part of the 
util-linux package, available from Kernel.org, and already a part of 
many distributions. It's darned handy when you have to update a bunch 
of file names that match a pattern. And I only learned of it one day 
when my PATH was screwed up! Maybe some of you didn't know about it 
either.


So, for the jdows of the world, keeping your scripts updated doesn't 
have to be that hard.


As for master/slave, with Postgres' replication the terms master / 
slave weren't embedded into the project, though some people use those 
terms. In my book "master" is just fine - has nothing at all to do 
with slavery but rather skill, such as in the terms "chess master" & 
"master chef", or command as in "ship's master," among a great many 
others nobody associates with racism. But instead of "slave", I refer 
to the copies as replicants. There are usually many good alternatives, 
we just have to be sensitive to not unnecessarily use terms some might 
deem offensive. In my book "slave" can be an unnecessary reminder of 
racial injustices, while at worst "blacklist" evokes un-just job 
discrimination, and in any event, what we're doing with a spam filter 
IS discrimination. Discrimination in and of itself is NOT bad, only 
discrimination for un-just reasons. And discriminating email based on 
who it came from is a perfectly valid reason to discriminate. As jdow 
said, discrimination on the basis of a positive or negative 
contribution or capability is fine, but on the basis of appearance 
isn't, to name just a couple of attributes one might discriminate on.


I STRONGLY agree with what jdow said about not fixing what's not 
broken (and most of her other comments). In particular, this IS bad 
for the project, not good. (If you want to do something truly helpful 
about it, see my recommendation below.)


Jdow's got a few years on me but we probably entered the working world 
around the same time and it might be worth a brief comment about 
background: My first job in computer science was in 1978, and I wrote 
(solo) the operating system for the TANO Outpost's new 6809 processor 
back in the very late '70s and very early '80s (real-time, general 
purpose hardware control with multi-tasking and a CPU / hardware 
cooperation to provide virtual memory - it was pretty advanced stuff 
for the time). ...In my time in computing I've both employed and been 
employed by Turing Award winners (Jim Gray & Michael Stonebraker) and 
worked on more projects than I can even recall. So, I have a LOT of 
experience in this field.


When I stumbled across all these posts, at first I was annoyed at the 
idiocy of it all: light and dark, white and black, have been used by 
humanity for as long as there have been records to follow, in every 
language, and even earlier than that if we look at art, to describe 
desirable and undesirable; anyone who has hurt feelings over this is 
just an ignorant person and they have misplaced sensibilities. This 
usage likely arises from the fears of our pre-scientific understanding 
of the world when there are things we can see and things we cannot and 
there's a natural fear of what we don't know & cannot see. (If anyone 
wants a readily accessible means of confirming this, please see the 
copious works of Joseph Campbell, especially in his video series with 
Bill Moyers entitled

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-12 Thread rtroy




Hi Yall,

I've been a member of this list for years but this is my first post to the 
list.


Given the great many posts already posted, I'll at least try and contribute 
something useful.


First, whenever script re-writing might become necessary to change something 
like, say "BumList" to "BanList", I had written a utility to do this and then, 
years later, the mysql team wrote a better version. ...I wouldn't use their 
database - I'm a Postgres guy, worked for Stonebraker at Berkeley when Postgres 
was developed in the '90s - BUT, their "replace" utility is fantastic. ...On 
one of my boxes, it is provided by: mysql-selinux-1.0.0-8.fc30.noarch


I had also written my own file rename utility, but again, someone did it 
better. Apparently since 2011, rename has been a part of the util-linux 
package, available from Kernel.org, and already a part of many 
distributions. It's darned handy when you have to update a bunch of file 
names that match a pattern. And I only learned of it one day when my PATH 
was screwed up! Maybe some of you didn't know about it either.


So, for the jdows of the world, keeping your scripts updated doesn't have to be 
that hard.


As for master/slave, with Postgres' replication the terms master / slave 
weren't embedded into the project, though some people use those terms. In 
my book "master" is just fine - has nothing at all to do with slavery but 
rather skill, such as in the terms "chess master" & "master chef", or 
command as in "ship's master," among a great many others nobody associates 
with racism. But instead of "slave", I refer to the copies as replicants. 
There are usually many good alternatives, we just have to be sensitive to 
not unnecessarily use terms some might deem offensive. In my book "slave" 
can be an unnecessary reminder of racial injustices, while at worst 
"blacklist" evokes un-just job discrimination, and in any event, what 
we're doing with a spam filter IS discrimination. Discrimination in and of 
itself is NOT bad, only discrimination for un-just reasons. And 
discriminating email based on who it came from is a perfectly valid reason 
to discriminate. As jdow said, discrimination on the basis of a positive 
or negative contribution or capability is fine, but on the basis of 
appearance isn't, to name just a couple of attributes one might 
discriminate on.


I STRONGLY agree with what jdow said about not fixing what's not broken (and 
most of her other comments). In particular, this IS bad for the project, not 
good. (If you want to do something truly helpful about it, see my 
recommendation below.)


Jdow's got a few years on me but we probably entered the working world around 
the same time and it might be worth a brief comment about background: My first 
job in computer science was in 1978, and I wrote (solo) the operating system 
for the TANO Outpost's new 6809 processor back in the very late '70s and very 
early '80s (real-time, general purpose hardware control with multi-tasking and 
a CPU / hardware cooperation to provide virtual memory - it was pretty advanced 
stuff for the time). ...In my time in computing I've both employed and been 
employed by Turing Award winners (Jim Gray & Michael Stonebraker) and worked on 
more projects than I can even recall. So, I have a LOT of experience in this 
field.


When I stumbled across all these posts, at first I was annoyed at the 
idiocy of it all: light and dark, white and black, have been used by 
humanity for as long as there have been records to follow, in every 
language, and even earlier than that if we look at art, to describe 
desirable and undesirable; anyone who has hurt feelings over this is just 
an ignorant person and they have misplaced sensibilities. This usage 
likely arises from the fears of our pre-scientific understanding of the 
world when there are things we can see and things we cannot and there's a 
natural fear of what we don't know & cannot see. (If anyone wants a 
readily accessible means of confirming this, please see the copious works 
of Joseph Campbell, especially in his video series with Bill Moyers 
entitled "The Masks of God" - even better the book series of the same name 
that goes back some 30,000 years - worth reading no matter your motive.) 
EVERY CULTURE across the globe and throughout time can be easily shown to 
use these same metaphors for good and bad, desirable and undesirable. And 
I'm sorry but this really is an idiotic change to make to working code - 
not that I have a vote.


Now, I can understand not wanting to offend the ignorant people who don't 
understand. To my mind the answer is to inform them via a simple web link 
to a source that can explain this to those concerned. This would be 1) 
doing something about some of the pain of racism some may feel; 2) easy to 
implement; 3) educational, and; 4) not consuming resources needlessly and 
not adding the risk of new bugs. Why NOT do this instead?! Remember, 
everybody's ignorant, just about

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave


KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov in '85 (Idealogical Subversion & Demoralization):

"...to change the perception of reality of every American [and most 
Europeans] to such an extent that despite the abundance of information 
no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of 
defending themselves.. and their country."


"The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information, 
with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures. Even if I take him, 
by force, to the Soviet Union and show him concentration camp, he will 
refuse to believe it until he is going to receive a kick in his fat 
bottom. When the military boot crashes his, then he will understand. But 
not before that. That is the tragedy of this situation of demoralization."


On 7/11/2020 5:39 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
People are upset because they're being called racists when they're not 
by a sub-group who wants dominance and makes the accusation that 
because you're white you're a racist. Then our peers grovel when 
they've done nothing wrong. They've committed NO sin.


Master/Slave wasn't thought up to OFFEND anyone nor to make any racial 
connotations. You are admitting guilt where there is no guilt.


As I said earlier, every race has been enslaved at one point in there 
existence or another. Black slave masters sold black slaves to white 
slave traders, and yet, I hear no call for reparations for blacks from 
black slave masters. No, it's only a call to whites because there's an 
agenda to bring down white culture.


It starts somewhere. The current battle is to remove our language and 
to impute guilt where there is none.


Again, grow up.

On 7/11/2020 5:23 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on 
anyone whose opinion differs from yours?


For the record, I know*many*  people who are perfectly sane who find 
using the terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply 
offensive.


But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.

And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because 
it's fine with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore 
their feelings are unimportant.


This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real 
lack of empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people 
have a difference of opinion it is simpler to attack them and 
diminish them as having mental issues for daring to not toe to your 
line.


The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to 
fork their own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for 
whatever reason they want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.



-- I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

People are upset because they're being called racists when they're not 
by a sub-group who wants dominance and makes the accusation that because 
you're white you're a racist. Then our peers grovel when they've done 
nothing wrong. They've committed NO sin.


Master/Slave wasn't thought up to OFFEND anyone nor to make any racial 
connotations. You are admitting guilt where there is no guilt.


As I said earlier, every race has been enslaved at one point in there 
existence or another. Black slave masters sold black slaves to white 
slave traders, and yet, I hear no call for reparations for blacks from 
black slave masters. No, it's only a call to whites because there's an 
agenda to bring down white culture.


It starts somewhere. The current battle is to remove our language and to 
impute guilt where there is none.


Again, grow up.

On 7/11/2020 5:23 PM, @lbutlr wrote:

Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose 
opinion differs from yours?

For the record, I know*many*  people who are perfectly sane who find using the 
terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply offensive.

But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.

And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because it's fine 
with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore their feelings are 
unimportant.

This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real lack of 
empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people have a difference of 
opinion it is simpler to attack them and diminish them as having mental issues for daring 
to not toe to your line.

The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to fork their 
own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for whatever reason they 
want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.


-- I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-11 Thread @lbutlr

On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:38, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> yeah - by quoting your own idiocy - wow

I did no t want to call out any particular posting or poster.

> nobody right in his mind thins about black people in chanis when read
> something like this in a technical context: slave, master, blacklist,
> whitelist, blackhat, whitehat

Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose 
opinion differs from yours?

For the record, I know *many* people who are perfectly sane who find using the 
terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply offensive.

But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.

And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because it's fine 
with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore their feelings are 
unimportant.

This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real lack of 
empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people have a difference 
of opinion it is simpler to attack them and diminish them as having mental 
issues for daring to not toe to your line.

The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to fork their 
own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for whatever reason they 
want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.

-- 
I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Most every race has been enslaved at some point or other. They'd have 
you believe that only whites were the enslave[ers] of blacks, It goes 
with their evil narrative.


What, I am supposed to be offended because my ancestors in the past were 
enslaved by Romans or even blacks?


Do they owe me reparations? Am I offended by these terms because 
something happened to my ancestors and am I calling for their removal?


No, grow up!

On 7/11/2020 4:04 PM, @lbutlr wrote:

On 11 Jul 2020, at 00:51, Bill Cole  
wrote:

On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:


On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:


If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely 
offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.

I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the use 
of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never actually 
seen one in real life. Do they really exist?

"Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been 
raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another Minor 
Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.

Exactly. Although in other packages and usages the one that *has* caused 
terrible offense is master/slave. Many projects have been changing this over 
the last several years.

It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes 
though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-11 Thread @lbutlr

On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:04, @lbutlr  wrote:
> It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these 
> changes though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.

If there is anyone paying attention to the mailing list, can you please just 
kill this thread? It's not providing any useful content at this point and is 
just churning the same people posting about how terrible it is that they might, 
possibly but almost certainly really not, suffer the mildest of inconveniences 
in a small change to the package.

There's literally nothing to see here anymore, if there ever was past the 
initial post.

And some of you in this thread… wow.

-- 
I WILL NOT PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO BART Bart chalkboard Ep. 7F09

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

2020-07-11 Thread @lbutlr

On 11 Jul 2020, at 00:51, Bill Cole  
wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
> 
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>> 
>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are 
>>> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh 
>>> noes.
>> 
>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the 
>> use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never 
>> actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
> 
> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been 
> raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another 
> Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.

Exactly. Although in other packages and usages the one that *has* caused 
terrible offense is master/slave. Many projects have been changing this over 
the last several years.

It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes 
though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.


-- 
When the least they could do to you was everything, then the most
they could do to you suddenly held no terror. --Small Gods

Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave