Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
struts is as c what wicket is as java (still beyond c++)
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Struts Club?! That's disgusting :-( Am 11.01.2010 um 22:57 schrieb Jonathan Locke: that's because it's the number one rule! nobody talks about Struts Club. igor.vaynberg wrote: here is an interesting tidbit wicket is on the front page of nabble http://old.nabble.com/ sorted by activity. we are there along maven, jquery, cxf, tomcat, etc. how is the adoption on those? -igor On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the links. I have already submitted them as part of the evaluation process. I'll take a look at the IBM links from scott. Regards, Lester Steve Swinsburg wrote: On the wiki there are some pages to help your cause: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/products-based-on-wicket.html as well as blogs talking about Wicket, and lots more useful PR info: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/index.html All the best! cheers, Steve On 08/01/2010, at 11:43 AM, Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27118513.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
RE: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
It's a reference to the American cartoon Dilbert (www.dilbert.com) that is syndicated in papers. It has a nice sarcastic look at office life. -Original Message- From: Eyal Golan [mailto:egola...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 2:58 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers As my English is not my mother's tongue, even though I do speak it pretty good, what is the meaning of pointy haired bosses? I think I can understand it, but hey, I want to know if these are the kinds of bosses I encountered too often.. Eyal Golan egola...@gmail.com Visit: http://jvdrums.sourceforge.net/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/egolan74 P Save a tree. Please don't print this e-mail unless it's really necessary On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Jonathan Locke jonathan.lo...@gmail.comwrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27082 559.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
RE: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
http://old.nabble.com/file/p2713/phb.jpg -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p2713.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
you've got to admit it's a short distance between bloody fist fights in a basement for no purpose whatsoever and using struts. Peter Ertl-3 wrote: Struts Club?! That's disgusting :-( Am 11.01.2010 um 22:57 schrieb Jonathan Locke: that's because it's the number one rule! nobody talks about Struts Club. igor.vaynberg wrote: here is an interesting tidbit wicket is on the front page of nabble http://old.nabble.com/ sorted by activity. we are there along maven, jquery, cxf, tomcat, etc. how is the adoption on those? -igor On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the links. I have already submitted them as part of the evaluation process. I'll take a look at the IBM links from scott. Regards, Lester Steve Swinsburg wrote: On the wiki there are some pages to help your cause: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/products-based-on-wicket.html as well as blogs talking about Wicket, and lots more useful PR info: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/index.html All the best! cheers, Steve On 08/01/2010, at 11:43 AM, Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27118513.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27132029.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
As my English is not my mother's tongue, even though I do speak it pretty good, what is the meaning of pointy haired bosses? I think I can understand it, but hey, I want to know if these are the kinds of bosses I encountered too often.. It's from the Dilbert Comic Strip :) Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointy-Haired_Boss The Pointy-Haired Boss (often abbreviated to just PHB) is Dilbert's boss in the Dilbert comic strip. He is notable for his micromanagement, gross incompetence and unawareness of his surroundings, yet somehow retains power in the workplace.
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
It a figure from the famous dilbert comics. here is an image of him: http://files.myopera.com/ThePast/albums/170779/pointy%20haired%20boss.jpg Enjoy On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 08:58, Eyal Golan egola...@gmail.com wrote: As my English is not my mother's tongue, even though I do speak it pretty good, what is the meaning of pointy haired bosses? I think I can understand it, but hey, I want to know if these are the kinds of bosses I encountered too often.. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Hi Lester, Right now I'm in a similar situation: I'm working for a company that wants to (possibly) change from struts 1.X to something else and it is my job present the choices to the developers and managers, so that they can decide which will be the next framework the company will adopt for WEB development. I'm also trying to get Wicket adopted over the other candidates but that won't be easy... I fully agree with Jonathan: the only thing PHBs care about is theirs own personal interests... So, they pay special attention to keep themselves on the safe side of the fence. Cheers, Ernesto On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Jonathan, Bingo, I think you may have hit it on the spot. Igor, I have not managed to get a reply on how they determined Struts2 to be better supported compared to Wicket. But I suspect the list of a approved technologies is not very updated. I.e. the evaluation was probably done 2 years ago. Thanks for all the responses. The anecdotes and points made were very helpful and have helped out get out of my depression over the weekend. And I have written a long and hopefully thoughtful reply to the technical committee and will keep you guys posted. Lester Jonathan Locke wrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Hi Ernesto, Cant offer much advise here myself. The others have already great tips as well as morale support. If you are up to it, you should do a fair-sized prototype (with multi-forms/multi girds+ajax in typical pages) and just kick their arses. In my situation, we did a mini project with it and were just blow away with the results. I find it frustrating when technical evaluators do not sit down and get their hands dirty while making decisions that will affect whole companies' competitiveness and productivity. When making recommendations, we should do a detailed hands on the technology and should not just cut and paste whatever we find off the web and present it as having done our research. Doing tutorials only are also dangerous as they typically cover only a small subset of use cases and normally do not illustrate the complex UI's that can arises from users requests. Regards, Lester Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro wrote: Hi Lester, Right now I'm in a similar situation: I'm working for a company that wants to (possibly) change from struts 1.X to something else and it is my job present the choices to the developers and managers, so that they can decide which will be the next framework the company will adopt for WEB development. I'm also trying to get Wicket adopted over the other candidates but that won't be easy... I fully agree with Jonathan: the only thing PHBs care about is theirs own personal interests... So, they pay special attention to keep themselves on the safe side of the fence. Cheers, Ernesto On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Jonathan, Bingo, I think you may have hit it on the spot. Igor, I have not managed to get a reply on how they determined Struts2 to be better supported compared to Wicket. But I suspect the list of a approved technologies is not very updated. I.e. the evaluation was probably done 2 years ago. Thanks for all the responses. The anecdotes and points made were very helpful and have helped out get out of my depression over the weekend. And I have written a long and hopefully thoughtful reply to the technical committee and will keep you guys posted. Lester Jonathan Locke wrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Hi Lester, What I have done is implement the same mini application in several technologies: -Struts + Spring + Hibernate -Seam + JSF + Hibernate -Wicket + Spring/Guice + Hibernate With detailed explanations of how things work... Additionally I have created a more complex prototype of another application, done in Wicket +Spring/Guice, which shows advanced functionality like: -Auto-CRUDs panels, generated out of annotated POJOs, with grids supporting column reordering via drag-drop, export to Excel, PDF, etc. -Workspace like functionality: a page where users can work with different floating panels as in a desktop. One of these windows contains an AJAX driven wizard and the others are search screens the user can use to check information while using the wizard... -Trees, Palettes, Grids, etc. In a couple of weeks we have some training sessions... and after that a decision will be taken... Regards, Ernesto On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ernesto, Cant offer much advise here myself. The others have already great tips as well as morale support. If you are up to it, you should do a fair-sized prototype (with multi-forms/multi girds+ajax in typical pages) and just kick their arses. In my situation, we did a mini project with it and were just blow away with the results. I find it frustrating when technical evaluators do not sit down and get their hands dirty while making decisions that will affect whole companies' competitiveness and productivity. When making recommendations, we should do a detailed hands on the technology and should not just cut and paste whatever we find off the web and present it as having done our research. Doing tutorials only are also dangerous as they typically cover only a small subset of use cases and normally do not illustrate the complex UI's that can arises from users requests. Regards, Lester Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro wrote: Hi Lester, Right now I'm in a similar situation: I'm working for a company that wants to (possibly) change from struts 1.X to something else and it is my job present the choices to the developers and managers, so that they can decide which will be the next framework the company will adopt for WEB development. I'm also trying to get Wicket adopted over the other candidates but that won't be easy... I fully agree with Jonathan: the only thing PHBs care about is theirs own personal interests... So, they pay special attention to keep themselves on the safe side of the fence. Cheers, Ernesto On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Jonathan, Bingo, I think you may have hit it on the spot. Igor, I have not managed to get a reply on how they determined Struts2 to be better supported compared to Wicket. But I suspect the list of a approved technologies is not very updated. I.e. the evaluation was probably done 2 years ago. Thanks for all the responses. The anecdotes and points made were very helpful and have helped out get out of my depression over the weekend. And I have written a long and hopefully thoughtful reply to the technical committee and will keep you guys posted. Lester Jonathan Locke wrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
may you take into account the new wicket-like framework, Apache Click, too, just passing the incubator now... as another alternative to compare with, but also to show the tendency - and then the present and future - of web presentation frameworks... ;) On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Per Lundholm per.lundh...@gmail.comwrote: Since the PHB like to stay on the safe side of the fence, make them feel safe with Wicket. Tell successtories about Wicket. Tell failstories about other systems. :-) /Per On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro reier...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Lester, Right now I'm in a similar situation: I'm working for a company that wants to (possibly) change from struts 1.X to something else and it is my job present the choices to the developers and managers, so that they can decide which will be the next framework the company will adopt for WEB development. I'm also trying to get Wicket adopted over the other candidates but that won't be easy... I fully agree with Jonathan: the only thing PHBs care about is theirs own personal interests... So, they pay special attention to keep themselves on the safe side of the fence. Cheers, Ernesto On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Jonathan, Bingo, I think you may have hit it on the spot. Igor, I have not managed to get a reply on how they determined Struts2 to be better supported compared to Wicket. But I suspect the list of a approved technologies is not very updated. I.e. the evaluation was probably done 2 years ago. Thanks for all the responses. The anecdotes and points made were very helpful and have helped out get out of my depression over the weekend. And I have written a long and hopefully thoughtful reply to the technical committee and will keep you guys posted. Lester Jonathan Locke wrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
The e-ticket application of the Dutch railways (NS) uses Wicket as well, https://www.ns.nl/eticket/ticket On 1/8/2010 10:32 AM, Martijn Dashorst wrote: The dutch railways use wicket in at least one of their online apps (http://eropuit.nl), I know some dutch government agencies are using Wicket, dutch royal airlines (KLM) had/have a project using Wicket. Martijn On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:09 AM,leo.erlands...@tyringe.com wrote: Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson Lester Chuacicowic...@gmail.com 2010-01-08 01:43 Sänd svar till users@wicket.apache.org Till users@wicket.apache.org Kopia Ärende Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
you mean you speak it pretty *well* :) -igor On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Eyal Golan egola...@gmail.com wrote: As my English is not my mother's tongue, even though I do speak it pretty good, what is the meaning of pointy haired bosses? I think I can understand it, but hey, I want to know if these are the kinds of bosses I encountered too often.. Eyal Golan egola...@gmail.com Visit: http://jvdrums.sourceforge.net/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/egolan74 P Save a tree. Please don't print this e-mail unless it's really necessary On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Jonathan Locke jonathan.lo...@gmail.comwrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27082559.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
that's because it's the number one rule! nobody talks about Struts Club. igor.vaynberg wrote: here is an interesting tidbit wicket is on the front page of nabble http://old.nabble.com/ sorted by activity. we are there along maven, jquery, cxf, tomcat, etc. how is the adoption on those? -igor On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the links. I have already submitted them as part of the evaluation process. I'll take a look at the IBM links from scott. Regards, Lester Steve Swinsburg wrote: On the wiki there are some pages to help your cause: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/products-based-on-wicket.html as well as blogs talking about Wicket, and lots more useful PR info: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/index.html All the best! cheers, Steve On 08/01/2010, at 11:43 AM, Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27118513.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
With such nice groundwork laid out, it should be *easier* to sell it. Congrats in advance =). Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro wrote: Hi Lester, What I have done is implement the same mini application in several technologies: -Struts + Spring + Hibernate -Seam + JSF + Hibernate -Wicket + Spring/Guice + Hibernate With detailed explanations of how things work... Additionally I have created a more complex prototype of another application, done in Wicket +Spring/Guice, which shows advanced functionality like: -Auto-CRUDs panels, generated out of annotated POJOs, with grids supporting column reordering via drag-drop, export to Excel, PDF, etc. -Workspace like functionality: a page where users can work with different floating panels as in a desktop. One of these windows contains an AJAX driven wizard and the others are search screens the user can use to check information while using the wizard... -Trees, Palettes, Grids, etc. In a couple of weeks we have some training sessions... and after that a decision will be taken... Regards, Ernesto On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ernesto, Cant offer much advise here myself. The others have already great tips as well as morale support. If you are up to it, you should do a fair-sized prototype (with multi-forms/multi girds+ajax in typical pages) and just kick their arses. In my situation, we did a mini project with it and were just blow away with the results. I find it frustrating when technical evaluators do not sit down and get their hands dirty while making decisions that will affect whole companies' competitiveness and productivity. When making recommendations, we should do a detailed hands on the technology and should not just cut and paste whatever we find off the web and present it as having done our research. Doing tutorials only are also dangerous as they typically cover only a small subset of use cases and normally do not illustrate the complex UI's that can arises from users requests. Regards, Lester Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro wrote: Hi Lester, Right now I'm in a similar situation: I'm working for a company that wants to (possibly) change from struts 1.X to something else and it is my job present the choices to the developers and managers, so that they can decide which will be the next framework the company will adopt for WEB development. I'm also trying to get Wicket adopted over the other candidates but that won't be easy... I fully agree with Jonathan: the only thing PHBs care about is theirs own personal interests... So, they pay special attention to keep themselves on the safe side of the fence. Cheers, Ernesto On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Jonathan, Bingo, I think you may have hit it on the spot. Igor, I have not managed to get a reply on how they determined Struts2 to be better supported compared to Wicket. But I suspect the list of a approved technologies is not very updated. I.e. the evaluation was probably done 2 years ago. Thanks for all the responses. The anecdotes and points made were very helpful and have helped out get out of my depression over the weekend. And I have written a long and hopefully thoughtful reply to the technical committee and will keep you guys posted. Lester Jonathan Locke wrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Jonathan, Bingo, I think you may have hit it on the spot. Igor, I have not managed to get a reply on how they determined Struts2 to be better supported compared to Wicket. But I suspect the list of a approved technologies is not very updated. I.e. the evaluation was probably done 2 years ago. Thanks for all the responses. The anecdotes and points made were very helpful and have helped out get out of my depression over the weekend. And I have written a long and hopefully thoughtful reply to the technical committee and will keep you guys posted. Lester Jonathan Locke wrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
As my English is not my mother's tongue, even though I do speak it pretty good, what is the meaning of pointy haired bosses? I think I can understand it, but hey, I want to know if these are the kinds of bosses I encountered too often.. Eyal Golan egola...@gmail.com Visit: http://jvdrums.sourceforge.net/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/egolan74 P Save a tree. Please don't print this e-mail unless it's really necessary On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Jonathan Locke jonathan.lo...@gmail.comwrote: honestly, your response is too thoughtful. these pointy haired bosses are self-serving. they don't care about training costs or developer pain and they don't really care if their org runs efficiently. what they care about is that if there is a failure, their choice didn't cause it. which is why the old saying goes nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. same seems to go for struts. an idiotic technology choice, but you won't get fired for making the same idiotic choice everyone else is making. Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27082559.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com 2010-01-08 01:43 Sänd svar till users@wicket.apache.org Till users@wicket.apache.org Kopia Ärende Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
The dutch railways use wicket in at least one of their online apps (http://eropuit.nl), I know some dutch government agencies are using Wicket, dutch royal airlines (KLM) had/have a project using Wicket. Martijn On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:09 AM, leo.erlands...@tyringe.com wrote: Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com 2010-01-08 01:43 Sänd svar till users@wicket.apache.org Till users@wicket.apache.org Kopia Ärende Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com Apache Wicket 1.4 increases type safety for web applications Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.4.4 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
The Flemish Goverenemt (Belgium) has at least 2 intranet applications built on wicket. These are intranet applications, so I cannot give you some fancy urls. (but the apps are really fancy, I can assure you :-) ) Pieter On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Martijn Dashorst martijn.dasho...@gmail.com wrote: The dutch railways use wicket in at least one of their online apps (http://eropuit.nl), I know some dutch government agencies are using Wicket, dutch royal airlines (KLM) had/have a project using Wicket. Martijn On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:09 AM, leo.erlands...@tyringe.com wrote: Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com 2010-01-08 01:43 Sänd svar till users@wicket.apache.org Till users@wicket.apache.org Kopia Ärende Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com Apache Wicket 1.4 increases type safety for web applications Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.4.4 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- Pieter Degraeuwe Systemworks bvba Belgiëlaan 61 9070 Destelbergen GSM: +32 (0)485/68.60.85 Email: pieter.degrae...@systemworks.be visit us at http://www.systemworks.be
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org Hi Lester Did you point out that someone like Gavin King recommends wicket (and hence the Seam support for it) ? It may help to convince about wicket's credibility. hope it helps ++ -- Joseph Pachod IT THOMAS DAILY GmbH Adlerstraße 19 79098 Freiburg Deutschland T + 49 761 3 85 59 310 F + 49 761 3 85 59 550 E joseph.pac...@thomas-daily.de www.thomas-daily.de Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Wendy Thomas, Susanne Larbig Handelsregister Freiburg i.Br., HRB 3947 Registrieren Sie sich unter www.signin.thomas-daily.de für die kostenfreien TD Morning News, eine Auswahl aktueller Themen des Tages morgens um 9:00 in Ihrer Mailbox. Hinweis: Der Redaktionsschluss für unsere TD Morning News ist täglich um 8:30 Uhr. Es werden vorrangig Informationen berücksichtigt, die nach 16:00 Uhr des Vortages eingegangen sind. Die Email-Adresse unserer Redaktion lautet redakt...@thomas-daily.de. To receive the free TD News International - a selection of the day's top issues delivered to your mail box every day - please register at www.signin.thomas-daily.de Please note: Information received for our TD News International after 4 p.m. will be given priority for publication the following day. The daily editorial deadline is 8:30 a.m. You can reach our editorial staff at redakt...@thomas-daily.de. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Do you mean this post? http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/HowToStartLearningJavaEE6 Ernesto On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Joseph Pachod j...@thomas-daily.de wrote: Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org Hi Lester Did you point out that someone like Gavin King recommends wicket (and hence the Seam support for it) ? It may help to convince about wicket's credibility. hope it helps ++ -- Joseph Pachod IT THOMAS DAILY GmbH Adlerstraße 19 79098 Freiburg Deutschland T + 49 761 3 85 59 310 F + 49 761 3 85 59 550 E joseph.pac...@thomas-daily.de www.thomas-daily.de Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Wendy Thomas, Susanne Larbig Handelsregister Freiburg i.Br., HRB 3947 Registrieren Sie sich unter www.signin.thomas-daily.de für die kostenfreien TD Morning News, eine Auswahl aktueller Themen des Tages morgens um 9:00 in Ihrer Mailbox. Hinweis: Der Redaktionsschluss für unsere TD Morning News ist täglich um 8:30 Uhr. Es werden vorrangig Informationen berücksichtigt, die nach 16:00 Uhr des Vortages eingegangen sind. Die Email-Adresse unserer Redaktion lautet redakt...@thomas-daily.de. To receive the free TD News International - a selection of the day's top issues delivered to your mail box every day - please register at www.signin.thomas-daily.de Please note: Information received for our TD News International after 4 p.m. will be given priority for publication the following day. The daily editorial deadline is 8:30 a.m. You can reach our editorial staff at redakt...@thomas-daily.de. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Ernesto Reinaldo Barreiro wrote: Do you mean this post? http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/HowToStartLearningJavaEE6 Ernesto On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Joseph Pachod j...@thomas-daily.de wrote: For example yes Gavin said so as well on others occasions (I kind of remember having read it on some infoq's comment) ++ -- Joseph Pachod IT THOMAS DAILY GmbH Adlerstraße 19 79098 Freiburg Deutschland T + 49 761 3 85 59 310 F + 49 761 3 85 59 550 E joseph.pac...@thomas-daily.de www.thomas-daily.de Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Wendy Thomas, Susanne Larbig Handelsregister Freiburg i.Br., HRB 3947 Registrieren Sie sich unter www.signin.thomas-daily.de für die kostenfreien TD Morning News, eine Auswahl aktueller Themen des Tages morgens um 9:00 in Ihrer Mailbox. Hinweis: Der Redaktionsschluss für unsere TD Morning News ist täglich um 8:30 Uhr. Es werden vorrangig Informationen berücksichtigt, die nach 16:00 Uhr des Vortages eingegangen sind. Die Email-Adresse unserer Redaktion lautet redakt...@thomas-daily.de. To receive the free TD News International - a selection of the day's top issues delivered to your mail box every day - please register at www.signin.thomas-daily.de Please note: Information received for our TD News International after 4 p.m. will be given priority for publication the following day. The daily editorial deadline is 8:30 a.m. You can reach our editorial staff at redakt...@thomas-daily.de. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Someone should craft a very nice dilbert mashup for wicket ;) ** Martin 2010/1/8 Loritsch, Berin C. berin.lorit...@gd-ais.com: But why choose an inferior technology just because of its adoption numbers? The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. Reality never fits this mold, but it doesn't stop the pointy haired boss from trying. In this respect they are eternal optimists. -Original Message- From: leo.erlands...@tyringe.com [mailto:leo.erlands...@tyringe.com] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:09 AM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, We also had the same consideration when we chose Wicket. But why choose an inferior technology just because of it's Adoption Numbers? Also, Wicket is becoming more and more popular as people see the light :) Check out Jobs Trends (Relative Growth) here (JSF vs Struts vs Wicket): http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Struts%2C+JSF%2C+Wicketl=relative=1 We have a couple of hundred customers and so far the feedback is great both from our Developers and our Software Architects. Customers like that the GUIs are faster due to the simplicity of Ajax Adoption in Wicket. I also know that several large privately held companies in Sweden are using Wicket, as well as large Government Agencies (e.g. the Swedish Immigration Office). Sincerely yours Leo Erlandsson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
RE: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Leo, I actually persuaded my then pointy haired boss to go with Wicket by putting together a side-by-side comparison of techniques required for creating JSF, Struts and Wicket-based applications. It was obvious that the Wicket approach was just plain out cleaner, and would save money in medium-to-long run. As they say, it's just HTML and Java -- it makes it fun being a mindless drone :-P Loritsch, Berin C. wrote: The pointy haired bosses that do this believe in their heart of hearts that if you choose the same technology everyone else is using that they can turn thinking developers for mindless drones. It has more to do with avoiding training costs and rational thought, and more to do with trying to turn software development into an assembly line process. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27077379.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
RE: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Lester, While I can't show actual numbers that speak to adoption rate, we struggled with the same question. In the end we decided that it made sense and in the past 5 months have developed and deployed a web application for one of our clients and are 1.5 months into development for another client. Unfortunately the deployed application is not available to the public. It is a medical device sales/manufacturing tool for sales reps and named customers. The application that is under development is a e-commerce site with a custom product configuration tool that will be ready for deployment in the late March timeframe. The application will be heavily based on AJAX and use JQuery. The reason we wanted to use Wicket was because of the great AJAX support. We built a similar application for another client a few years ago using servlets/jsp, json, rest. The speed of development with Wicket is unbelievable. What took many weeks with the old architecture, we were able to accomplish in less than half that time. Also the code is much cleaner. Feel free to ping me if you need any more information. Jeff -Original Message- From: Lester Chua [mailto:cicowic...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 7:44 PM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
RE: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Have you considered Google Web Toolkit (GWT)? J.D. -Original Message- From: Lester Chua [mailto:cicowic...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:44 PM To: users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Hi Lester, If you think your boss will not accept the benefits, then why not show him the risk of sticking with a technology (Struts) that is in decline? Then suddenly he shoulders the burden of making the desision of taking ownership of a sinking ship. Regards Bernard On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 08:43:51 +0800, you wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
The wiki has a list of some web sites that use Wicket. http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html A quick search of IBM shows approx 1,080 articles on Wicket: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:ibm.com+wicket Scott On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
On the wiki there are some pages to help your cause: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/products-based-on-wicket.html as well as blogs talking about Wicket, and lots more useful PR info: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/index.html All the best! cheers, Steve On 08/01/2010, at 11:43 AM, Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Thanks for the links. I have already submitted them as part of the evaluation process. I'll take a look at the IBM links from scott. Regards, Lester Steve Swinsburg wrote: On the wiki there are some pages to help your cause: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/products-based-on-wicket.html as well as blogs talking about Wicket, and lots more useful PR info: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/index.html All the best! cheers, Steve On 08/01/2010, at 11:43 AM, Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
here is an interesting tidbit wicket is on the front page of nabble http://old.nabble.com/ sorted by activity. we are there along maven, jquery, cxf, tomcat, etc. how is the adoption on those? -igor On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the links. I have already submitted them as part of the evaluation process. I'll take a look at the IBM links from scott. Regards, Lester Steve Swinsburg wrote: On the wiki there are some pages to help your cause: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/products-based-on-wicket.html as well as blogs talking about Wicket, and lots more useful PR info: http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/index.html All the best! cheers, Steve On 08/01/2010, at 11:43 AM, Lester Chua wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Hi Lester, I don't know if this helps but I work for a large staffing company called Spherion Corporation. Our most recent large applications have been created using Wicket. These projects have been delivered on-time, require low maintenance and have literally saved the company millions of dollars. We're a popular group in the IT department right now :-) Anyway, I am not really here to toot my horn but rather to let you know that the Wicket framework is being used by some serious players. Steve (Man, am I glad I came across the Wicket review at the ServerSide.) -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27070748.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Also the Apache Wicket LinkedIn group could be used to get a feel of companies using Wicket, at the moment there are 524 members and counting: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMembers=gid=80181 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:30 AM, shetc sh...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hi Lester, I don't know if this helps but I work for a large staffing company called Spherion Corporation. Our most recent large applications have been created using Wicket. These projects have been delivered on-time, require low maintenance and have literally saved the company millions of dollars. We're a popular group in the IT department right now :-) Anyway, I am not really here to toot my horn but rather to let you know that the Wicket framework is being used by some serious players. Steve (Man, am I glad I came across the Wicket review at the ServerSide.) -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27070748.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
You guys are AWESOME. I'm composing an email to the evaluator-in-charge from the tech committee. Hope all this is persuasive enough. Regards, Lester Peter Thomas wrote: Also the Apache Wicket LinkedIn group could be used to get a feel of companies using Wicket, at the moment there are 524 members and counting: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMembers=gid=80181 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:30 AM, shetc sh...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hi Lester, I don't know if this helps but I work for a large staffing company called Spherion Corporation. Our most recent large applications have been created using Wicket. These projects have been delivered on-time, require low maintenance and have literally saved the company millions of dollars. We're a popular group in the IT department right now :-) Anyway, I am not really here to toot my horn but rather to let you know that the Wicket framework is being used by some serious players. Steve (Man, am I glad I came across the Wicket review at the ServerSide.) -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27070748.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
ask them for their sources for adoption rates of struts 2, im curious. -igor On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: You guys are AWESOME. I'm composing an email to the evaluator-in-charge from the tech committee. Hope all this is persuasive enough. Regards, Lester Peter Thomas wrote: Also the Apache Wicket LinkedIn group could be used to get a feel of companies using Wicket, at the moment there are 524 members and counting: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMembers=gid=80181 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:30 AM, shetc sh...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hi Lester, I don't know if this helps but I work for a large staffing company called Spherion Corporation. Our most recent large applications have been created using Wicket. These projects have been delivered on-time, require low maintenance and have literally saved the company millions of dollars. We're a popular group in the IT department right now :-) Anyway, I am not really here to toot my horn but rather to let you know that the Wicket framework is being used by some serious players. Steve (Man, am I glad I came across the Wicket review at the ServerSide.) -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27070748.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
Just a thought, in my experience a lot of project teams end up choosing Struts2 thinking that it is a simple upgrade from Struts 1 and that existing in-house expertise in Struts 1 can be preserved. This line of thinking obviously appeals to management. Just in case, make it clear that Struts 2 is a completely different framework + learning curve. - Peter On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Igor Vaynberg igor.vaynb...@gmail.comwrote: ask them for their sources for adoption rates of struts 2, im curious. -igor On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: You guys are AWESOME. I'm composing an email to the evaluator-in-charge from the tech committee. Hope all this is persuasive enough. Regards, Lester Peter Thomas wrote: Also the Apache Wicket LinkedIn group could be used to get a feel of companies using Wicket, at the moment there are 524 members and counting: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMembers=gid=80181 On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:30 AM, shetc sh...@bellsouth.net wrote: Hi Lester, I don't know if this helps but I work for a large staffing company called Spherion Corporation. Our most recent large applications have been created using Wicket. These projects have been delivered on-time, require low maintenance and have literally saved the company millions of dollars. We're a popular group in the IT department right now :-) Anyway, I am not really here to toot my horn but rather to let you know that the Wicket framework is being used by some serious players. Steve (Man, am I glad I came across the Wicket review at the ServerSide.) -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27070748.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
Re: Help with Wicket Adoption Numbers
yup. ibm is into it. i also think it's telling that wicket is a global phenomenon at this point... there are books on wicket in english (3), german (2), japanese (1) and chinese (1). and these are independent books, not localizations of one book. jon p.s. if your group needs advice, i occasionally do architectural consulting and there are also a number of trainers out there now. Scott Swank wrote: The wiki has a list of some web sites that use Wicket. http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/websites-based-on-wicket.html A quick search of IBM shows approx 1,080 articles on Wicket: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:ibm.com+wicket Scott On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Lester Chua cicowic...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I am facing a hurdle that need crossing in my final attempt to push Wicket for use in an organization. I have: 1) Prototyped a small size module 2) Did 2-3 presentations on the key features and advantages of wicket No one is disputing my claims about productivity and good OO code that was the result. BUT, the technology evaluation committee is NOT recommending Wicket because of. of all things. - Wicket's Low Adoption Rate Can I find any numbers to blow this away? My alternative is to accept the finding and work with Struts 2. Which will mean the stack will need to expand to DWR (for security). I REALLY don't want to go there, and am even considering not taking part in this project due to the high risk involved, only 9 months to introduce huge changes to a system that has lots of legacy problems (took about 3 years to build). I think a lot of those years were spent wrestling with the monster that is EJB 1.1. The only way I thought the project can even be on time is to scrap the entire presentation layer (aka Struts) and redo it in Wicket with 1 dedicated developer while the rest of the team work on killing the beast that is EJB 1.1 by refactoring the biz code. Sigh, my choices are stark. It's either to keep the job and plough ahead and probably fail spectacularly 9 months later or go hungry and explain to my wife why we need to spend less on the kid.. It's easy to blame the tech committee but they did help me find wicket by rejecting my initial proposal to build the new system on a (JQuery+JSON+REST) framework, which can be very productive as well, if not as clean as Wicket. Sorry for rambling so much. Is there any way I can demolish the silly low adoption rate argument (omg I still don't believe it can be so lame)? Lester - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Help-with-Wicket-Adoption-Numbers-tp27069702p27071273.html Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
