[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players. Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il basso', published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very clear that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't be too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players as you wrote! I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html No chitarra spagnuola (or darbuka) on his list rgds, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by his etc... Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies that the guitar does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments covered by the etc But I do agree that the modern practice of some groups involving much banging and thrashing about is probably misplaced: just because Agazzari lists a number of instruments doesn't mean they all play at the same time! MH --- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 9:24 I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players. Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il basso', published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very clear that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't be too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players as you wrote! I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see [1]http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html No chitarra spagnuola (or darbuka) on his list rgds, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by his etc... Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies that the guitar does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments covered by the etc Agazzari says: 'chitarrina', not 'chitarrino'. What is a chitarrina? Was it strummed, like the chitarra spagnola? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
What I was commenting on is the way the singers interpret the text. Monica - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Dear Monica On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: ... The idea that because the ciaccona was originally a popular doesn't mean that anything based on it to be performed in a popular manner. Kapsberger's villanelle may have been popular songs but that doesn't seem to me to justify adding percussion to them as well as batteries of strummed instruments. ... An example of this is on a CD by the group L'Arpeggiata which includes a Ciaccona di Paradiso e dell'Inferno performed in a way that someone very aptly described to me as wink wink nudge nudge style. It's meant to be a serious dialogue about heaven and hell. I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players. Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il basso', published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very clear that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't be too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players as you wrote! I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Dear Monica On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: .. The idea that because the ciaccona was originally a popular doesn't mean that anything based on it to be performed in a popular manner. Kapsberger's villanelle may have been popular songs but that doesn't seem to me to justify adding percussion to them as well as batteries of strummed instruments. .. An example of this is on a CD by the group L'Arpeggiata which includes a Ciaccona di Paradiso e dell'Inferno performed in a way that someone very aptly described to me as wink wink nudge nudge style. It's meant to be a serious dialogue about heaven and hell. I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players. Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il basso', published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very clear that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't be too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players as you wrote! I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 06:23, Rockford Mjos wrote: I have added the score Capona Espagnola from the De Gallot Ms to my Ning page. (I tried to also upload one by Valdambrini, but Ning seems to be stubborn tonight.) Very interesting - and in the same key as the two in Carbonchi. Rocky, do you think the last beat of bar 9 should be open A (fifth course) rather than D on the fourth? And the g#s in bar 23. Are they just a passing variation; a sort of E7 chord rather than G. But could they be an error? I think the piece loses its hypnotic character somewhat. These pieces are playing around with 2/4 and 3/4 but is there an underlying 'vamp' (as it were)? They are notated in 3, but I don't think I can play them in 3. It's fun just playing the final four bars of the Capona Espagnola - presumably as 2/4. It's interesting too, that these aren't strummed; one might have thought that something a bit licentious would go towards strumming rather than 'lute style' I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Stuart -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 08/12/2011 23:58, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Colección: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se cantan varias coplillas². A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy How interesting. Any idea what: of very bad circumstances might mean? Or is it just meant to be suggestive of what 'decent' people would not do. Or something to do with eunuchs? Stuart El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? How interesting. Any idea what: of very bad circumstances might mean? Or is it just meant to be suggestive of what 'decent' people would not do. Or something to do with eunuchs? It does indeed have something to do with eunuchs! As I understand it Capona refers to a capon and therefore to castratos. The rhythm and dance steps are supposed to reflect the mincing steps of same. Monica El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? On 09/12/2011 06:23, Rockford Mjos wrote: I have added the score Capona Espagnola from the De Gallot Ms to my Ning page. (I tried to also upload one by Valdambrini, but Ning seems to be stubborn tonight.) Ning indeed seems very stubborn tonight. I couldn't access Rocky transcription - very frustrating. Nothing happens when I click on it. Very interesting - and in the same key as the two in Carbonchi. Rocky, do you think the last beat of bar 9 should be open A (fifth course) rather than D on the fourth? Could be - Gallot or his servant Monnier isn't always entirely accurate. He has barred it wrongly which he quite often does with pieces which start with an anacrucis. And the g#s in bar 23. Are they just a passing variation; a sort of E7 chord rather than G. But could they be an error? Could be. I wonder where he copied the piece from. He has copied Carbonchi's instructions for tuning guitars to 12 different pitches. These pieces are playing around with 2/4 and 3/4 but is there an underlying 'vamp' (as it were)? Apparently it is a characteristic of the Capona that it divides into two irregular phrases, one of 5 beats and the other of 7. 5 crotchets followed by 7 crotchets or 3 minims plus a crotchet I.e. a sort of hemiola. Lynda Sayce has done a very nice version of Piccinini's Capona on a CD with Charivarri Agreeable. She suggests that Piccinini's version - which is apparently rather inept - may be an arrangement of a guitar piece. So she has arranged it back. Piccinini did spend some time in Spain. I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Stuart (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona Espagnola (Gallot)
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:52 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona Espagnola (Gallot) About the Capona, Monica says: Apparently it is a characteristic of the Capona that it divides into two irregular phrases, one of 5 beats and the other of 7. 5 crotchets followed by 7 crotchets or 3 minims plus a crotchet I.e. a sort of hemiola. Now that's really something! ...Anyway, Rocky put up an edition of a Capona Espagnola from the Gallot guitar MS. I couldn't access this or your recording for some reason. However as I said the rhythm should be C C / C C C / C C / C C / C C / C // if C= crotchet and M= minim. The crotchet may be dotted followed by a quaver. Piccinini hasn't barred it correctly bu Lynda Sayce does it perfectly. This seems to be common practice in early 17th century not to indicate the anancrucis. They don't always bar things in the way we would consider correct possibly because they weren't all that musically literate. I had a quick go at the Gallot but didn't think much of it. He has made a mess of it I think. Don't expect too much of these people! Monica Monica say that Gallot or his servant Monnier isn't always entirely accurate. He has barred it wrongly which he quite often does with pieces which start with an anacrucis. The Caponas in Carbonchi start on the second beat of the bar too and no doubt, this should too. I had a go at playing it. I found very challenging trying to play and yet it doesn't sound much at all, listening to it. I don't think I'm phrasing it correctly - but I don't think I could conceive (get my head around) a 5 beat phrase followed by a 7 beat one. Has anyone else had a go? The notes are easy, the notation is straightforward but it's just seems very odd. I'd be really interested to hear other peoples' reactions to it. And I'd recommend anyone to have a go even at just the last four bars - just single notes - and maybe phrase it 5 beats, the seven beats. Well here's a go at it. I was really disappointed because I expected it to sound much more rhythmically surprising. It felt like it should be when I was playing it (many, many times with a metronome in an ear piece!) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/CaponaGallot.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Well, the waltz was nasty because people held each other closely while dancing. There's even a funny quote from 1799 in Grove about people waltzing in the dark corner of the room. I think the sarabanda and ciacona garnered comments from some shocked Europeans in the 17th century or earlier. Maybe some performers are making the most (too much?) of it now to sell CDs, but the dances really did seem to scandalize Europeans back in the day. Perhaps more than choreography bothered them (with the Spanish/New World dances): rhythms, instrumentation, topics, maybe even the cultural group the music originated from? Yesteryear's hip hop? Jocelyn From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:42:03 + To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3][9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l -- References
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 22:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Well, the waltz was nasty because people held each other closely while dancing. There's even a funny quote from 1799 in Grove about people waltzing in the dark corner of the room. I think the sarabanda and ciacona garnered comments from some shocked Europeans in the 17th century or earlier. Maybe some performers are making the most (too much?) of it now to sell CDs, but the dances really did seem to scandalize Europeans back in the day. Perhaps more than choreography bothered them (with the Spanish/New World dances): rhythms, instrumentation, topics, maybe even the cultural group the music originated from? The eroticised other, indeed. Yesteryear's hip hop? Jocelyn From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:42:03 + To: Stuart Walsh[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3][9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Stuart, Very enjoyable (as always). I think you've given a very musical rendering of the quirky rhythms. In addition, Valdambrini has 12 in his second book. But I'm clueless about the form or dance itself. -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Colección: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se cantan varias coplillas². A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Thanks Eloy. Your comment got me to pull out Rogerio Budasz's dissertation :The Five-Course Guitar (Viola) in Portugal and Brazil He has several paragraphs on the Capona and Mariona, including an excerpt from two plays which both fit your reference to the play on words, one suggesting the names chacona and capona were closely connected. Budasz speculates that a regulation from 1615 which forbid certain bailes including the chaconas and zarabandas, may have led to renaming some dances in order to escape punishment. He believes Piccinini's posthumous 1639 book contains 2 types of ciaccona: a chiaccona mariona alla vera Spagnola, and a chiaccona cappona alla vera Spagnola, the former somtimes called simply mariona in other sources, and structured around variations on the borrowed ciaccona harmonic progression. (And mostly in C major / 5o tono) Piccinini's chiaccona cappona corresponds to capone by Kapsberger, Carbonchi, and the De Gallot guitar manuscript. These show a preference for D and G major, and a strong rhythmic drive, stressed by the bass line and the dactyl rhythmic figuration. Budasz thinks it possible that Piccinini or his brothers may have introduced the capona and mariona to Italy due to family ties to Spain. The Portuguese manuscripts which Budasz worked with includes one mariona-type capona, one so-called Spanish capona, and three others which do not fit easily in any of these groups, being most likely a later development. The only surviving Iberian musical setting are in the Coimbra codex and generally follow either a I IV(or vi) V I or I V6 vi IV IV V scheme. I have added the score Capona Espagnola from the De Gallot Ms to my Ning page. (I tried to also upload one by Valdambrini, but Ning seems to be stubborn tonight.) -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Colección: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se cantan varias coplillas². A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html