Re: the echo show and show and tell

[Mickey Quenzer]

Hello:
I don’t think you’re off topic in that you’re trying to work with devices that 
work with the iPhone, and Alexa. maybe there’s a better group to send your 
message to As far as I’m concerned until we figure that out I like your 
questions and keep it up. If you do figure out another place make sure we know 
where that is so we can help you there it could possibly be that you should go 
to a different group but will work that out. Thank you for your questions and I 
don’t have an answer otherwise I Would help you with.
Maybe we should create an echo devices group of some kind.



*** Mickey Quenzer ***

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  on behalf of 
llump...@austin.rr.com 
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 10:43:30 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com 
Subject: the echo show and show and tell


If I’m off topic, I apologize. Please respond to me off list at



llump...@austin.rr.com



I just got an echo show 8 and have been trying to use show and tell to identify 
household products. My initial trials have been somewhat disappointing so far. 
I may have the unit in a poor location so will move it tomorrow and try some 
more.



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the echo show and show and tell

[llumpkin]

If I'm off topic, I apologize. Please respond to me off list at

 

llump...@austin.rr.com  

 

I just got an echo show 8 and have been trying to use show and tell to
identify household products. My initial trials have been somewhat
disappointing so far. I may have the unit in a poor location so will move it
tomorrow and try some more.

 

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The Echo show and show and tell

[llumpkin]

I'm not sure this is on topic so would you please respond off list to

 

llump...@austin.rr.com  

 

Has anyone gotten the echo show and gotten show and tell to work
successfully. My initial trials have been somewhat disappointing so far. I
may have it located in a bad place so I'll move it tomorrow and try some
more.

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RE: Logictech K380 question

[Richard Turner]

Thank you.
I actually figured that out.  I was completely expecting it to have the same 
pairing buttons that the K480 has.  I learned yet again what assuming does, 
grin.
Thanks very much,



Richard
"He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass 
himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient hatreds 
among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not granting grace to 
others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward Herbert

From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Jim 
Portillo
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 4:22 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Logictech K380 question

Hi Richard,
Use one of the first three function keys.  Press one of those keys for a couple 
of seconds, and then things should be recognized by the phone or apple device. 
Your client will have to type a code on the keyboard and hit enter, and then it 
will be paired.
Hope this helps.
Jim

Sent from my iPhone XR!


On Aug 17, 2020, at 3:46 PM, Richard Turner 
mailto:richardturne...@outlook.com>> wrote:

Can someone tell me where the pairing button is to pair to an Apple device on 
the k380?
I am working remotely with a client and trying to help her get her new keyboard 
paired with her iPhone.



Richard
"He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass 
himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient hatreds 
among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not granting grace to 
others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward Herbert

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The following 

Re: Logictech K380 question

[Jim Portillo]

Hi Richard,
Use one of the first three function keys.  Press one of those keys for a couple 
of seconds, and then things should be recognized by the phone or apple device. 
Your client will have to type a code on the keyboard and hit enter, and then it 
will be paired.
Hope this helps.
Jim


Sent from my iPhone XR!

> On Aug 17, 2020, at 3:46 PM, Richard Turner  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Can someone tell me where the pairing button is to pair to an Apple device on 
> the k380?
> I am working remotely with a client and trying to help her get her new 
> keyboard paired with her iPhone.
>  
>  
>  
> Richard
> "He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass 
> himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient 
> hatreds among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not 
> granting grace to others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward 
> Herbert
>  
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.
>  
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>  
> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
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Logictech K380 question

[Richard Turner]

Can someone tell me where the pairing button is to pair to an Apple device on 
the k380?
I am working remotely with a client and trying to help her get her new keyboard 
paired with her iPhone.



Richard
"He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass 
himself," and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient hatreds 
among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not granting grace to 
others, I've never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward Herbert

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Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

[lenron brown]

It's only to put people down when they don't think like you. Being
blind has nothing to do with it.

On 8/17/20, chalt...@gmail.com  wrote:
> And the blindness community is also accused of over reacting and being too
> sensitive, e.g. the reaction to this petition. IMHO, both statements are
> prejudicial. The blindness community is no different then the sighted
> community, where you have a lot of people who don't care and a lot of people
> who are overly sensitive.
>
> --
> Christopher (AKA CJ)
> Chaltain at Gmail
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
>> Of Davy Cuppens
>> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 3:21 AM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
>> excluding
>> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
>>
>> Thats the whole problem of the blind community sit back and relax! And do
>> nothing! Moan and complain about bugs on forums for the blind and for the
>> rest
>> DO NOTHING Nothing at all!
>> I live in Belgium and 3 of the most read newspapers in Flanders are
>> totally 100%
>> inaccessible with voiceover!!! Whenever you open an article the app will
>> close
>> when using voiceover.
>>
>> I am the only blind chap that lodged a complaint against the app
>> distributors but
>> standing alone I can do nothing, therefore I urge people on the list not
>> to tell but
>> even bomb bomb and bomb again Apples's servers with our accessibility
>> bug
>> reports!
>>
>> I have called an Apple employee about the brail bug that when typing
>> numbers
>> and hearing voiceover speaking other signs or the bug with the phone
>> trying to
>> unlock the screen when listening to music with wired earpads, they got
>> very few
>> reports about that.
>> For those so I guess 97% of the community being reluctant to report errors
>> I'd
>> advice maybe to buy a perkins brail machine again for typing purposes and
>> an
>> abacus as a calculator.
>> Davy
>> Davy
>> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
>> From: Peter Logan
>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 3:01 PM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: RE: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
>> excluding
>> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
>>
>> Can't agree more .. I also installed the beta .. without reading the
>> release notes
>> .. so it's on me .. not Apple ..  and I will wait for it to get fixed ..
>> I'm not going to
>> scream and holler at Apple for my stupidity ..
>> Everyone needs to just relax ..  Until this go around .. there wasn't even
>> a Watch
>> beta ..
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
>> Of Donna Casteen
>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 2:17 AM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
>> excluding
>> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
>>
>> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘‍♀️ This petition was
>> started
>> because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install
>> beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device!
>> Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the
>> beta
>> version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily!  Beta versions
>> of
>> any program WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands
>> behind their products making them accessible for the blind & those with
>> other
>> disabilities, does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having
>> bugs.
>> Nor does this bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public
>> beta
>> testing process. Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated
>> with
>> ALL Apple watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of
>> the bug. Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on
>> fixing
>> the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public
>> beta
>> testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a
>> problem
>> that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with
>> Apple
>> watch user(s), who in their poor judgement decided to install the public
>> beta on
>> a device, in which is used daily.
>>
>> It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta
>> testing
>> program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices would
>> always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large
>> company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very
>> small. If
>> this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong &
>> publically
>> criticizing Apple for something that  at the time was out of their
>> control, but
>> Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2
>> things 1.
>> No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. Apple
>> can do
>> this by stopping all public beta testing.
>> 2. Apple throws in 

Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

[Yuma Decaux]

Hi guys,

I find the argumentation that Apple does not include BVI in their public betas 
seems a bit over the top, considering that Apple had warned that the current 
beta will not be accessible. This can be due to many different variables, 
including that Apple may be transferring their code base to a new framework 
that is currently not 100% and requires some more refinements. If you agree to 
download a beta, the agreement holds for all clauses given by Apple, including 
warnings, and other bugs that may cause your device not to function until you 
either a reset or downgrade the OS or a new build comes out. You specifically 
agree to all these clauses, so complaining after that your device is not 
working using a beta, I repeat beta installation is like agreeing to 
participate in a medical trial for some kind of tablet, and you complain after 
that your bowels are loose.

If Apple decided to omit BVI for one build out of many, and have clearly 
mentioned this, I see no reason for myself to download that beta, since I 
already have a fully functional device, and trying to go bleeding edge is 
always an issue no matter what software product. Waiting for the next beta 
build isn't the end of the world, and life has a lot of other activities to 
partake in.

Isn't it simple just to wait, considering that Apple has given a tremendous 
amount of time to make mac OS and all its other products accessible on the get 
go, and that you are going bleeding edge at your own risk?

I am a developer myself, and will never install bleeding edge mac OS builds on 
a critical device as I know I will run the risk of not being able to do certain 
tasks, because some features are being refined and in that process, some 
accessibility buttons or features may be temporarily broken.

Besides, Apple's commitment to accessibility is not a mystery, and the current 
switch to a merger between mac OS IOS and others seems like a good direction, 
that will make our devices clearly more integrated. Finally, if you had 
purchased the beta and it bricked your device for good, then this might be some 
justification to be angry, but none of this is the case.

Have a great rest of week y'all,

Yuma 


> On 17 Aug 2020, at 4:29 pm, Donna Casteen  wrote:
> 
> The reason behind Jonathan creating the petition is twofold: 1. Apple's 
> warning to voiceover users on Apple watches not to install the beta, leaving 
> blind individuals unable to beta test. 2. It was brought to Jonathan's 
> attention that someone had installed the public beta on their watch, 
> rendering the watch unusable. Even though the petition didn't mention the 
> above second point. It was part of the basis for starting the petition. Both 
> points above show that Apple showed a lack of disgard for the blind public 
> beta testers, by not having a voiceover compatible beta version available for 
> the Apple watch. 
> 
> What confuses me, it seems that blind public beta testers are under the 
> mindset that sighted public beta testers do not have to deal with major bugs 
> that render their devices unusable. This isn't true. I suggest that people go 
> read the developer and beta tester forums on Apple's website. If for no other 
> reason, to educate yourself. 
> 
> 
>> 
>> I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, 
>> says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they 
>> were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was 
>> made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to 
>> a VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted 
>> then it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and 
>> dry to me.
>> 
>> --
>> Christopher (AKA CJ)
>> Chaltain at Gmail
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
>>> Of Simon A Fogarty
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
>>> excluding
>>> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
>>> 
>>> Hi Christopher,
>>> 
>>> You should read more into it,
>>> 
>>> The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their 
>>> primary
>>> watch device and voiceover wasn't working
>>> 
>>> Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it 
>>> is a beta
>>> and therefore may cause issues  that mean the device wont work correctly,
>>> 
>>> This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims 
>>> this
>>> all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices 
>>> When it
>>> really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples 
>>> suggestion.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
>>> Of chalt...@gmail.com
>>> Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: 

RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

[chaltain]

And the blindness community is also accused of over reacting and being too 
sensitive, e.g. the reaction to this petition. IMHO, both statements are 
prejudicial. The blindness community is no different then the sighted 
community, where you have a lot of people who don't care and a lot of people 
who are overly sensitive.

--
Christopher (AKA CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail

> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
> Of Davy Cuppens
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 3:21 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
> excluding
> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> 
> Thats the whole problem of the blind community sit back and relax! And do
> nothing! Moan and complain about bugs on forums for the blind and for the rest
> DO NOTHING Nothing at all!
> I live in Belgium and 3 of the most read newspapers in Flanders are totally 
> 100%
> inaccessible with voiceover!!! Whenever you open an article the app will close
> when using voiceover.
> 
> I am the only blind chap that lodged a complaint against the app distributors 
> but
> standing alone I can do nothing, therefore I urge people on the list not to 
> tell but
> even bomb bomb and bomb again Apples's servers with our accessibility  bug
> reports!
> 
> I have called an Apple employee about the brail bug that when typing numbers
> and hearing voiceover speaking other signs or the bug with the phone trying to
> unlock the screen when listening to music with wired earpads, they got very 
> few
> reports about that.
> For those so I guess 97% of the community being reluctant to report errors I'd
> advice maybe to buy a perkins brail machine again for typing purposes and an
> abacus as a calculator.
> Davy
> Davy
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> From: Peter Logan
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 3:01 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
> excluding
> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> 
> Can't agree more .. I also installed the beta .. without reading the release 
> notes
> .. so it's on me .. not Apple ..  and I will wait for it to get fixed ..  I'm 
> not going to
> scream and holler at Apple for my stupidity ..
> Everyone needs to just relax ..  Until this go around .. there wasn't even a 
> Watch
> beta ..
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
> Of Donna Casteen
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 2:17 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
> excluding
> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> 
> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘‍♀️ This petition was started
> because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER install
> beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device!
> Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the beta
> version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily!  Beta versions of
> any program WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands
> behind their products making them accessible for the blind & those with other
> disabilities, does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs.
> Nor does this bug prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta
> testing process. Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with
> ALL Apple watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of
> the bug. Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing
> the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the public 
> beta
> testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing Apple for a problem
> that they were working toward fixing, is wrong. The Blame solely lies with 
> Apple
> watch user(s), who in their poor judgement decided to install the public beta 
> on
> a device, in which is used daily.
> 
> It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta 
> testing
> program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices would
> always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large
> company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very small. 
> If
> this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong & publically
> criticizing Apple for something that  at the time was out of their control, 
> but
> Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end going to do 1 of 2 
> things 1.
> No longer let blind users participate in the beta testing process. Apple can 
> do
> this by stopping all public beta testing.
> 2. Apple throws in the towel, giving up on trying to make their products
> accessible for such a small population of people. Neither of these scenarios 
> are
> in the best interest of blind iDevice users.
> 
> When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT complain
> when 

RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

[chaltain]

I don't think the original post violated any rules about not discussing a beta 
on this list. The original post wasn’t' talking about any particular feature of 
a specific beta. Rather it was discussing an Apple policy, namely it's OK to 
put out a beta that's unusable by all blind people with a warning that blind 
people shouldn't install the beta, as opposed to sighted users who can install 
the beta and who may or may not run into an issue making their device unusable.

Richard's post was directed at me, where I simply pointed out to a poster 
asking the moderator to put an end to posts on such frivolous petitions to 
follow the wishes of the moderator and send their complaints directly to the 
moderator rather than posting to the list. I wasn't asking for the moderator to 
intervene myself, and I could care less whether the thread continues or not, 
since I have a working delete key and email clients that support threads, so in 
my own mind at least, I wasn't being a hipocrit as Richard said.

--
Christopher (AKA CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail

> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
> Of Davy Cuppens
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 3:27 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
> excluding
> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> 
> But for that I must say Richard is also right.
> This posting was about beta and should have been discussed before first with
> the mods of this group. In that point I agree with everyone not liking this 
> kind of
> post.
> But please folks do report your problems with Apple and it is good to mention 
> it
> on forums and if bugs are confirmed by others! Please do report to 
> accessibility
> if you want change.
> Davy
> 
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> From: Richard Turner
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 4:44 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
> excluding
> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> 
> At the risk of stepping on toes, all of you who are publicly criticizing 
> CrazyEyez
> are violating the same list rule to write the moderator directly, instead of
> posting to the list.
> Perhaps the moderator, Mark Taylor, will come back to moderating or appoint
> someone else to do so.
> 
> I am simply going to try to mute this thread as it is no longer useful.
> Yes, I am doing this publicly but I don't have time to write each individual 
> to ask
> them to cease this nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> Richard
> "He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass
> himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient
> hatreds among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not
> granting grace to others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward
> Herbert
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
> Of
> sherrywells1...@gmail.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:38 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
> excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> 
> Exactly right Christopher.
> 
> As crazyeyez says below, people are dumb.  This is true of people like him
> or her who insult others over a petition they haven't even bothered to read
> for themselves.
> 
> Sherry Wells
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
> Of
> chalt...@gmail.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 5:06 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
> excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> 
> If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd
> encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post
> to this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the
> running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate,
> please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the
> list itself."
> 
> I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did
> anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such
> a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't
> participate. Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your
> opinion on what someone said about the petition?
> 
> --
> Christopher (AKA CJ)
> Chaltain at Gmail
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
> Of
> > CrazyEyez
> > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM
> > To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
> > excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
> >
> > Honestly, people are dumb.
> > They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something
> > happened.
> > I don't feel bad for you in the least.
> > We should 

Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

[Davy Cuppens]

But for that I must say Richard is also right.
This posting was about beta and should have been discussed before first with 
the mods of this group. In that point I agree with everyone not liking this 
kind of post.
But please folks do report your problems with Apple and it is good to 
mention it on forums and if bugs are confirmed by others! Please do report 
to accessibility if you want change.

Davy

-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Richard Turner

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 4:44 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org


At the risk of stepping on toes, all of you who are publicly criticizing 
CrazyEyez are violating the same list rule to write the moderator directly, 
instead of posting to the list.
Perhaps the moderator, Mark Taylor, will come back to moderating or appoint 
someone else to do so.


I am simply going to try to mute this thread as it is no longer useful.
Yes, I am doing this publicly but I don't have time to write each individual 
to ask them to cease this nonsense.




Richard
"He that cannot forgive others breaks the bridge over which he must pass 
himself,” and we forget that only grace can break the cycle of ancient 
hatreds among peoples. (It is notable that while I have regretted not 
granting grace to others, I’ve never once regretted extending it.)" - Edward 
Herbert


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of 
sherrywells1...@gmail.com

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:38 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org


Exactly right Christopher.

As crazyeyez says below, people are dumb.  This is true of people like him 
or her who insult others over a petition they haven't even bothered to read 
for themselves.


Sherry Wells

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of 
chalt...@gmail.com

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 5:06 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org


If you're truly concerned about posts and traffic on this list, I'd 
encourage you to follow the moderators request at the bottom of every post 
to this list, namely " If you have any questions or concerns about the 
running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, 
please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the 
list itself."


I read the petition myself, and I didn't see where the petitioner did 
anything dumb or stupid. They were bringing up the point that Apple had such 
a serious VoiceOver bug in the beta that a blind person couldn't 
participate. Did you read the petition yourself or were you just basing your 
opinion on what someone said about the petition?


--
Christopher (AKA CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of
CrazyEyez
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:47 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

Honestly, people are dumb.
They'll start a petition over anything, even if its their fault something 
happened.

I don't feel bad for you in the least.
We should start a petition to remove the idiot who started this whole
mess from the list so they don't clog our emails with their wining.
Moderator remove this garbage thread please.
It shows true stupidity.
Where has the comprehension gone?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:16 AM, Donna Casteen 
wrote:
>
> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘‍♀️ This
> petition was started
because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER
install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main
device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update &
installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they RELY on &
USE daily!  Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The fact that
Apple is a company that stands behind their products making them
accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does NOT
exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug 
prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing 
process.

Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple
watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug.
Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing
the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the
public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing
Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong.
The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor
judgement decided to install the 

Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

[Davy Cuppens]

Thats the whole problem of the blind community sit back and relax! And do 
nothing! Moan and complain about bugs on forums for the blind and for the 
rest DO NOTHING Nothing at all!
I live in Belgium and 3 of the most read newspapers in Flanders are totally 
100% inaccessible with voiceover!!! Whenever you open an article the app 
will close when using voiceover.


I am the only blind chap that lodged a complaint against the app 
distributors but standing alone I can do nothing, therefore I urge people on 
the list not to tell but even bomb bomb and bomb again Apples's servers with 
our accessibility  bug reports!


I have called an Apple employee about the brail bug that when typing numbers 
and hearing voiceover speaking other signs or the bug with the phone trying 
to unlock the screen when listening to music with wired earpads, they got 
very few reports about that.
For those so I guess 97% of the community being reluctant to report errors 
I'd advice maybe to buy a perkins brail machine again for typing purposes 
and an abacus as a calculator.

Davy
Davy
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Peter Logan

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 3:01 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org


Can't agree more .. I also installed the beta .. without reading the release 
notes .. so it's on me .. not Apple ..  and I will wait for it to get fixed 
..  I'm not going to scream and holler at Apple for my stupidity .. 
Everyone needs to just relax ..  Until this go around .. there wasn't even a 
Watch beta ..




-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of Donna 
Casteen

Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 2:17 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org


I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘‍♀️ This petition was 
started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING to NEVER 
install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is YOUR main device! 
Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta update & installed the beta 
version on their Apple watch that they RELY on & USE daily!  Beta versions 
of any program WILL have bugs. The fact that Apple is a company that stands 
behind their products making them accessible for the blind & those with 
other disabilities, does NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from 
having bugs. Nor does this bug prevent those who are blind taking part in 
the public beta testing process. Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug 
Associated with ALL Apple watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with 
Apple watches of the bug. Apple also informed voiceover users that they were 
working on fixing the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could 
participate in the public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & 
criticizing Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is 
wrong. The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor 
judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is used 
daily.


It is very important that blind iDevice users participate in Apple's beta 
testing program, otherwise voiceover or low vision features of the iDevices 
would always have major bugs, making the iDevices unusable. Apple is a large 
company. The population that is blind & who use Apple products is very 
small. If this type of placing blame where it is obvious it does not belong 
& publically criticizing Apple for something that  at the time was out of 
their control, but Apple was working toward fixing: Apple is in the end 
going to do 1 of 2 things 1. No longer let blind users participate in the 
beta testing process. Apple can do this by stopping all public beta testing. 
2. Apple throws in the towel, giving up on trying to make their products 
accessible for such a small population of people. Neither of these scenarios 
are in the best interest of blind iDevice users.


When beta testing follow Apple's guidelines or otherwise DO NOT complain 
when your device stops working!


--
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.


Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor.  Mark can be reached at: 
mk...@ucla.edu.  Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com


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To 

Re: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org

[Donna Casteen]

The reason behind Jonathan creating the petition is twofold: 1. Apple's warning 
to voiceover users on Apple watches not to install the beta, leaving blind 
individuals unable to beta test. 2. It was brought to Jonathan's attention that 
someone had installed the public beta on their watch, rendering the watch 
unusable. Even though the petition didn't mention the above second point. It 
was part of the basis for starting the petition. Both points above show that 
Apple showed a lack of disgard for the blind public beta testers, by not having 
a voiceover compatible beta version available for the Apple watch. 

What confuses me, it seems that blind public beta testers are under the mindset 
that sighted public beta testers do not have to deal with major bugs that 
render their devices unusable. This isn't true. I suggest that people go read 
the developer and beta tester forums on Apple's website. If for no other 
reason, to educate yourself. 


> 
> I'm not sure what I should look into more. The petition, which I did read, 
> says nothing about someone installing a beta with a VoiceOver bug after they 
> were warned not to by Apple. The petition just said that a public beta was 
> made available but blind people using VoiceOver couldn't participate due to a 
> VoiceOver bug. IMHO, if a public beta is made available to the sighted then 
> it should also be made available to the blind. It seems pretty cut and dry to 
> me.
> 
> --
> Christopher (AKA CJ)
> Chaltain at Gmail
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
>> Of Simon A Fogarty
>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:30 PM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
>> excluding
>> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
>> 
>> Hi Christopher,
>> 
>> You should read more into it,
>> 
>> The person behind this idea did install the pb for watch os 7 to their 
>> primary
>> watch device and voiceover wasn't working
>> 
>> Apple do state that you shouldn't put a beta on to a primary device as it is 
>> a beta
>> and therefore may cause issues  that mean the device wont work correctly,
>> 
>> This person had to send their watch away to have it setup again and blaims 
>> this
>> all on appples attitude towards visually impaired users of there devices 
>> When it
>> really comes down to the users ignorance and not listening to apples 
>> suggestion.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
>> Of chalt...@gmail.com
>> Sent: Sunday, 16 August 2020 9:01 PM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: RE: Petition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully 
>> excluding
>> disabled people from public betas · Change.org
>> 
>> I didn't see anything in the petition that said anyone went ahead and 
>> installed
>> the beta even after Apple warned that voiceOver users shouldn't install the 
>> beta.
>> The point of the petition, as I read it, is that Apple shouldn't exclude 
>> blind people
>> from participating in the public beta because of such a serious and known
>> VoiceOver bug. I myself do find a lot of petitions are frivolous and over 
>> the top,
>> but I don't have a problem with this one myself.
>> 
>> --
>> Christopher (AKA CJ)
>> Chaltain at Gmail
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com  On Behalf
>> Of
>>> Donna Casteen
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 1:17 AM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Pétition · Apple: Apple, commit to never again willfully
>>> excluding disabled people from public betas · Change.org
>>> 
>>> I can't believe such a petition was started!!臘‍♀️ This petition
>>> was started because an Apple watch user went against Apple's WARNING
>>> to NEVER install beta versions of IOS on ANY Appple device that is
>>> YOUR main device! Of course, this person just HAD to have the beta
>>> update & installed the beta version on their Apple watch that they
>>> RELY on & USE daily!  Beta versions of any program WILL have bugs. The
>>> fact that Apple is a company that stands behind their products making
>>> them accessible for the blind & those with other disabilities, does
>>> NOT exclude Apple's beta versions of IOS from having bugs. Nor does this bug
>> prevent those who are blind taking part in the public beta testing process.
>>> Apple was FULLY aware of the voiceover bug Associated with ALL Apple
>>> watches. And fully WARNED voiceover users with Apple watches of the bug.
>>> Apple also informed voiceover users that they were working on fixing
>>> the voiceover bug, so that voiceover users could participate in the
>>> public beta testing program. Placing the blame on Apple & criticizing
>>> Apple for a problem that they were working toward fixing, is wrong.
>>> The Blame solely lies with Apple watch user(s), who in their poor
>>> judgement decided to install the public beta on a device, in which is used 
>>> daily.
>>> 
>>> It is very important that