Re: scp to VMS

[Nicholas Clark]

On Sat, Jun 02, 2012 at 12:13:26PM -0500, John E. Malmberg wrote:
> VMS Engineering has given us some feedback on SCP:
> 
> The pscp program from Linux "putty tools" package will work with the VMS 
> SCP program.
> 
> I tested this and it work.

I already seem to have it installed on the local Ubuntu machine.
(Side effect of playing with pterm, after getting fed up with Gnome terminal)

> This package does not appear to be available for Mac OS-X, so I do not 
> have a solution there.

It all builds from source, once I remove the -Werror

(It finds the Gtk I have installed from macports, and one of the putty
programs is using functions which this version of Gtk has marked as deprecated)

Thanks for finding this.

Nicholas Clark

Re: scp to VMS

[John E. Malmberg]

VMS Engineering has given us some feedback on SCP:

The pscp program from Linux "putty tools" package will work with the VMS 
SCP program.


I tested this and it work.

This package does not appear to be available for Mac OS-X, so I do not 
have a solution there.


Regards,
-John

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Craig A. Berry]

On May 23, 2012, at 5:22 PM, John E. Malmberg wrote:

> I also found that 'scp -2' is supposed to force SCP into using V2 of the 
> protocol.  No change seen in behavior from doing this.


I think that means version 2 of ssh, the network protocol, whereas scp2 uses 
sftp as the file transfer protocol instead of rcp as the file transfer protocol 
like plain old scp does.

___
Craig A. Berry
mailto:craigbe...@mac.com

"... getting out of a sonnet is much more
 difficult than getting in."
 Brad Leithauser

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[John E. Malmberg]

On 5/22/2012 3:18 PM, Mark Berryman wrote:


Instead, I simply built libssh2 on the unix box and used the example
program sftp_write.c


I just tried the sftp program in Scientific Linux 6.1 and it can upload 
files.  The help for it says that it can recursively upload a directory.


It looks like uploads either require interactive mode, or batch file mode.

Downloads can be done with a simple command line.


Or, use Multinet. It is just so much better.


Not an option in this case, the remote system is maintained by HP.


I also found that 'scp -2' is supposed to force SCP into using V2 of the 
protocol.  No change seen in behavior from doing this.


Regards,
-John
Personal Opinion Only

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Mark Berryman]

On May 19, 2012, at 11:03 AM, John E. Malmberg wrote:

> On 5/19/2012 2:56 AM, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> 
>> Yes, this is the fun, and why it turns out that scp from VMS out to *nix
>> works, but not the other way. Pretty much every *nix is using OpenSSH,
>> whereas the VMS ssh is commercial ssh. OpenSSH has the original "scp"
>> command, which I think is actually the source code of "rcp" with some
>> edits. The rcp design is to have the same binary able to act as client and
>> server. OpenSSH also provides sftp.
> 
> 
> 
> I am passing on the following information to the Office of VMS Programs:
> 
> It appears that the issue with SCP into TCPIP 5.7, is that it is trying to 
> run the program TCPIP$SSH_SCP1.EXE, and generates that error message when it 
> fails.
> 
> Which means that either that image is missing from the kit or it was never 
> built.
> 
> From trying to substitute tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe for it, I get a different error 
> about unexpected new-line.
> 
> This means that if the issue is more complicated than just the image 
> accidentally left out of the TCPIP KIT, we could probably substitute an open 
> source program by assigning the logical name TCPIP$SSH_SCP1 to it.
> 
> The OpenSSH project contains an SCP1 program that will probably work.
> 

When one TCPIP services node uses SCP to speak to another TCPIP services node, 
it properly invokes the SFTP subsystem to handle the file transfer.  When SCP 
from any other system, including a VMS system running Multinet, tries to speak 
SCP to a system running TCPIP services, this does not happen and the transfer 
fails.  I have not dug into why it works when TCPIP services is talking to 
itself but not when anyone else tries to talk to it.

Instead, I simply built libssh2 on the unix box and used the example program 
sftp_write.c to put a simple transfer program together.  As written, the 
command "sftp_write host_ip_addr username password source_file dest_file" works 
when talking to a TCPIP services host.  It is fairly trivial to change the code 
to accept standard SCP syntax and use public-key authentication.

Or, use Multinet.  It is just so much better.

Mark Berryman

Re: scp to VMS

[Larry Bohan]

I offer this suggestion, in case it might (somewhat) address the
need/want for SCP btw VMS and linux, namely:

I found that the "lftp" client  works (passably) well from the linux
side to/from VMS  (for puts, gets, mget's, mputs).

 #  lftp 'sftp://:@host/device/dir/' -e 'mget
*THISTHAT* ; exit'


(in the above example, if public-key/password-less ssh btw the 2
systems is working,  is ignored.)

As ever, working out the best/proper syntax for wildcards can be a bit fussy
and. perhaps, there was a specific need for SCP in particular?  (in
which case, I'm sorry, "Never Mind")


Aside:  It would be nice, if there was a way to force the VMS's STP
server to look like a unix-server (a feature similar to what Hunter
Goatley's HGFTP server has)

I tried 9 ways from Friday (special accounts. DECC$ logicals, trying
run GNV bash from login, etc)
but no dice, so far.   up to Alpha VMS 8.3, tcpip 5.7 eco1 ...)

I have not tried doing the same with Multinet/Process Software on the
VMS side...


-- Forwarded message ------
From: 
Date: Mon, May 21, 2012 at 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was
Re: HP hobbyist license))
To: Nicholas Clark 
Cc: "Craig A. Berry" , Nicholas Clark
, Thomas Pfau , VMSperl Mailing
List 


Hello,

well you might be able to not use your "normal" account for the transfer,
but a special one confined to a restricted shell (aka "captive account" for
the VMS only people on the list ;-)

If you do go down the http route, curl is available on VMS too for command
line access to http.

Greetings,

Martin

P.S. And yes, it is pretty annoying that scp is broken on VMS since a long
time




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, VMSperl Mailing List 
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On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 09:48:43AM +0200, martin.zin...@eurexchange.com
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> a.) Agree with Craig on scp . If this is fixed either it is extremely
> recent (doesn't work with 5.7 ECO 3)  or it needs some additional magic.
>
> b.) In case you just need to move around Perl source files, which are not
> terribly secret, you could use FTP instead of scp. On the VMS side of the
> house, the easiest way to do so is

The source files aren't terribly secret, but any password I need to log
into
the remote server I'm getting them from is. :-(

(Although therefore I could just serve them up over HTTP and solve it that
way)

Nicholas Clark

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Martin . Zinser]

Hello,

well you might be able to not use your "normal" account for the transfer,
but a special one confined to a restricted shell (aka "captive account" for
the VMS only people on the list ;-)

If you do go down the http route, curl is available on VMS too for command
line access to http.

Greetings,

Martin

P.S. And yes, it is pretty annoying that scp is broken on VMS since a long
time




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, VMSperl Mailing List  
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          Subject|
  |Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP 
hobbyist license))|
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On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 09:48:43AM +0200, martin.zin...@eurexchange.com
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> a.) Agree with Craig on scp . If this is fixed either it is extremely
> recent (doesn't work with 5.7 ECO 3)  or it needs some additional magic.
>
> b.) In case you just need to move around Perl source files, which are not
> terribly secret, you could use FTP instead of scp. On the VMS side of the
> house, the easiest way to do so is

The source files aren't terribly secret, but any password I need to log
into
the remote server I'm getting them from is. :-(

(Although therefore I could just serve them up over HTTP and solve it that
way)

Nicholas Clark

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[John E. Malmberg]

On 5/19/2012 2:56 AM, Nicholas Clark wrote:


Yes, this is the fun, and why it turns out that scp from VMS out to *nix
works, but not the other way. Pretty much every *nix is using OpenSSH,
whereas the VMS ssh is commercial ssh. OpenSSH has the original "scp"
command, which I think is actually the source code of "rcp" with some
edits. The rcp design is to have the same binary able to act as client and
server. OpenSSH also provides sftp.




I am passing on the following information to the Office of VMS Programs:

It appears that the issue with SCP into TCPIP 5.7, is that it is trying 
to run the program TCPIP$SSH_SCP1.EXE, and generates that error message 
when it fails.


Which means that either that image is missing from the kit or it was 
never built.


From trying to substitute tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe for it, I get a different 
error about unexpected new-line.


This means that if the issue is more complicated than just the image 
accidentally left out of the TCPIP KIT, we could probably substitute an 
open source program by assigning the logical name TCPIP$SSH_SCP1 to it.


The OpenSSH project contains an SCP1 program that will probably work.

Regards,
-John

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Nicholas Clark]

On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 12:16:14PM -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:
> 
> On May 17, 2012, at 5:49 AM, Thomas Pfau wrote:
> 
> > I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with OpenVMS 
> > 8.4.  Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems.
> 
> It seems not, actually.  With a server that looks like:
> 
> $ tcpip show vers
> 
>   HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.7 - ECO 2
>   on an HP rx2600  (1.50GHz/6.0MB) running OpenVMS V8.4
> 
> coming from an OS X client (with remote address changed to protect the 
> guilty):

> So while I probably had the nomenclature and version numbers confused in my 
> previous post, there is definitely something still wrong with agreeing on a 
> mutually acceptable version of something.  It looks like it's a very old 
> problem for servers that do not support multiple protocols: 
> .

Yes, this is the fun, and why it turns out that scp from VMS out to *nix
works, but not the other way. Pretty much every *nix is using OpenSSH,
whereas the VMS ssh is commercial ssh. OpenSSH has the original "scp"
command, which I think is actually the source code of "rcp" with some
edits. The rcp design is to have the same binary able to act as client and
server. OpenSSH also provides sftp.

What then happened was that the commercial ssh tools were re-written, with
"scp2" being a new version, command-line compatible with the existing "scp",
but implemented completely differently. Instead of using ssh to start
another instance of the "scp" program on the remote host, it uses the sftp
subsystem.

This is why one can run scp on VMS to talk to a *nix system, but not the
other way.


(Been ill for the past couple of days, hence why I've not replied to any
e-mail. Or done much else, either, for that matter)

Nicholas Clark

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Nicholas Clark]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 09:48:43AM +0200, martin.zin...@eurexchange.com wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> a.) Agree with Craig on scp . If this is fixed either it is extremely
> recent (doesn't work with 5.7 ECO 3)  or it needs some additional magic.
> 
> b.) In case you just need to move around Perl source files, which are not
> terribly secret, you could use FTP instead of scp. On the VMS side of the
> house, the easiest way to do so is

The source files aren't terribly secret, but any password I need to log into
the remote server I'm getting them from is. :-(

(Although therefore I could just serve them up over HTTP and solve it that
way)

Nicholas Clark

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Martin . Zinser]

Hello,

a.) Agree with Craig on scp . If this is fixed either it is extremely
recent (doesn't work with 5.7 ECO 3)  or it needs some additional magic.

b.) In case you just need to move around Perl source files, which are not
terribly secret, you could use FTP instead of scp. On the VMS side of the
house, the easiest way to do so is

CFD004> copy/ftp temp.txt 10.10.245.115"zinsmar password"::"exchange/" /log
%TCPIP-S-FTP_COPIED, SYSPROG$DISK:[ZINSER]temp.txt;1 copied to
10.10.245.115"zinsmar password"::"exchange/temp.txt" (10 bytes)
CFD004>  copy/ftp 10.10.245.115"zinsmar password"::"exchange/temp.txt"
*.*/log
%TCPIP-S-FTP_COPIED, 10.10.245.115"zinsmar password"::"exchange/temp.txt"
copied to SYSPROG$DISK:[ZINSER]temp.txt;2 (10 bytes)

Where "password" in the command has to be replaced with your actual
password.  I am sure you know how to do this on the Unix side of the
house ;-)

Greetings,  Martin


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On May 17, 2012, at 5:49 AM, Thomas Pfau wrote:

> I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with
OpenVMS 8.4.  Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems.

It seems not, actually.  With a server that looks like:

$ tcpip show vers

  HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.7 - ECO 2
  on an HP rx2600  (1.50GHz/6.0MB) running OpenVMS V8.4

coming from an OS X client (with remote address changed to protect the
guilty):

% scp -v test.txt craig@192.168.1.2:
Executing: program /usr/bin/ssh host 192.168.1.2, user craig, command scp
-v -t -- .
OpenSSH_5.6p1, OpenSSL 0.9.8r 8 Feb 2011
debug1: Reading configuration data /Users/craig/.ssh/config
debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh_config
debug1: Applying options for *
debug1: Connecting to 192.168.1.2 [192.168.1.2] port 22.
debug1: Connection established.
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa type 1
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa-cert type -1
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa type -1
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa-cert type -1
debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version 3.2.0 SSH
OpenVMS V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3
debug1: no match: 3.2.0 SSH OpenVMS V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3
debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0
debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.6
debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent
debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT received
debug1: kex: server->client aes128-cbc hmac-md

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Craig A. Berry]

On May 17, 2012, at 5:49 AM, Thomas Pfau wrote:

> I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with OpenVMS 
> 8.4.  Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems.

It seems not, actually.  With a server that looks like:

$ tcpip show vers

  HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.7 - ECO 2
  on an HP rx2600  (1.50GHz/6.0MB) running OpenVMS V8.4

coming from an OS X client (with remote address changed to protect the guilty):

% scp -v test.txt craig@192.168.1.2:
Executing: program /usr/bin/ssh host 192.168.1.2, user craig, command scp -v -t 
-- .
OpenSSH_5.6p1, OpenSSL 0.9.8r 8 Feb 2011
debug1: Reading configuration data /Users/craig/.ssh/config
debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh_config
debug1: Applying options for *
debug1: Connecting to 192.168.1.2 [192.168.1.2] port 22.
debug1: Connection established.
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa type 1
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa-cert type -1
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa type -1
debug1: identity file /Users/craig/.ssh/id_dsa-cert type -1
debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version 3.2.0 SSH OpenVMS 
V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3
debug1: no match: 3.2.0 SSH OpenVMS V5.5 VMS_sftp_version 3
debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0
debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.6
debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent
debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT received
debug1: kex: server->client aes128-cbc hmac-md5 none
debug1: kex: client->server aes128-cbc hmac-md5 none
debug1: sending SSH2_MSG_KEXDH_INIT
debug1: expecting SSH2_MSG_KEXDH_REPLY
debug1: Host '192.168.1.2' is known and matches the DSA host key.
debug1: Found key in /Users/craig/.ssh/known_hosts:13
debug1: ssh_dss_verify: signature correct
debug1: SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS sent
debug1: expecting SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS
debug1: SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS received
debug1: Roaming not allowed by server
debug1: SSH2_MSG_SERVICE_REQUEST sent
debug1: SSH2_MSG_SERVICE_ACCEPT received

 Welcome to HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Operating System, Version V8.4
debug1: Authentications that can continue: publickey,password
debug1: Next authentication method: publickey
debug1: Offering RSA public key: /Users/craig/.ssh/id_rsa
debug1: Server accepts key: pkalg ssh-rsa blen 149
debug1: Authentication succeeded (publickey).
Authenticated to 192.168.1.2 ([192.168.1.2]:22).
debug1: channel 0: new [client-session]
debug1: Entering interactive session.
debug1: Sending environment.
debug1: Sending env LANG = en_US.UTF-8
debug1: Sending command: scp -v -t -- .

  scp1 compatibility mode is not supported.


So while I probably had the nomenclature and version numbers confused in my 
previous post, there is definitely something still wrong with agreeing on a 
mutually acceptable version of something.  It looks like it's a very old 
problem for servers that do not support multiple protocols: 
.

If someone finds an open source scp2 client, please holler.


Craig A. Berry
mailto:craigbe...@mac.com

"... getting out of a sonnet is much more
 difficult than getting in."
 Brad Leithauser

Re: scp to VMS

[John E. Malmberg]

I have submitted a list of issues about the HP OpenSource cluster that 
Nicholas posted, and a few others that I noticed to the Office of 
OpenVMS programs e-mail address and a received a reply that they will be 
looking at getting these resolved.


Regards,
-John
Personal Opinion Only

Re: scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Thomas Pfau]

I understand this problem is fixed with the new ssh that comes with OpenVMS
8.4.  Prior to this, scp does not work to openssh systems.

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Craig A. Berry  wrote:

>
> On May 16, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Mark Berryman wrote:
>
> >> 1: Is there any easy way to get an scp2 client for Unix, so that I can
> scp
> >>  to them? (And use editors remotely)
> >
> > SCP clients definitely work to VMS systems as I use them extensively.
>  It has been awhile since I set up a TCPIP Services system (I use Multinet
> myself) but, if you have any error messages or log files, especially from
> the VMS side, I may be able to help.
> >
>
> I'm almost positive scp only works with Multinet, not TCP/IP Services.
>  IIRC, the HP scp server errors out with something about not talking SSH
> 1.0, only 2.0, but in fact it is its own fault for failing to recognize the
> 2.0 handshake sent by the client.
>
> If someone has a contrary example of using a modern scp client to talk to
> the TCP/IP Services server, I'd love to know how to make it work.
>
> 
> Craig A. Berry
> mailto:craigbe...@mac.com
>
> "... getting out of a sonnet is much more
>  difficult than getting in."
> Brad Leithauser
>
>


-- 
Thomas Pfau
tfp...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaspfau
http://nbpfaus.net/~pfau/

scp to VMS (Re: mms case sensitivity build failures (was Re: HP hobbyist license))

[Craig A. Berry]

On May 16, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Mark Berryman wrote:

>> 1: Is there any easy way to get an scp2 client for Unix, so that I can scp
>>  to them? (And use editors remotely)
> 
> SCP clients definitely work to VMS systems as I use them extensively.  It has 
> been awhile since I set up a TCPIP Services system (I use Multinet myself) 
> but, if you have any error messages or log files, especially from the VMS 
> side, I may be able to help.
> 

I'm almost positive scp only works with Multinet, not TCP/IP Services.  IIRC, 
the HP scp server errors out with something about not talking SSH 1.0, only 
2.0, but in fact it is its own fault for failing to recognize the 2.0 handshake 
sent by the client.

If someone has a contrary example of using a modern scp client to talk to the 
TCP/IP Services server, I'd love to know how to make it work.


Craig A. Berry
mailto:craigbe...@mac.com

"... getting out of a sonnet is much more
 difficult than getting in."
 Brad Leithauser