Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Kumudu Suriyaarachchi]

With DIDs migrating to VoIP could ENUM registry be the solution to this issue?
As predicted if PSTN shuts down there will only peer to peer routes.

Kumudu Suriyaarachchi
ksuriyaarach...@alteva.com<mailto:ksuriyaarach...@alteva.com>
P 484.534.4427

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From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Ivan 
Kovacevic
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 11:15 PM
To: Pete E; Peter Beckman
Cc: VoiceOps
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide


What would help, and what has been done in other industries (think JD Power, 
Gartner… ok maybe not Gartner) is to have this data aggregated and available to 
view as a part of an industry report.

So that you can look at Cheap-o-voip.com and say…. “The rates sure look good, 
but their PDD, completion, etc are dismal, I’ll pass”…  That would quickly help 
separate the good from the bad and hopefully drive the industry overall to 
improve those key metrics. I would pay for that sort of report, just to avoid 
wasting time on duds. Or… I would be open to sharing data, either as summary 
data or sanitized CDRs to help drive that sort of database.

Now… if we could only agree on what the key metrics are... it seems that 
everyone has a different measuring stick.

Best Regards,

Ivan Kovacevic
Vice President, Client Services
Star Telecom | www.startelecom.ca<http://www.startelecom.ca/> | SIP Based 
Services for Contact Centers

From: VoiceOps 
[mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org>] On 
Behalf Of Pete E
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 5:14 PM
To: Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com<mailto:beck...@angryox.com>>
Cc: VoiceOps <voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>>
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

Ditto. We do the same, but it doesn't get us very far. We've recently fired two 
carriers for performance.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Peter Beckman 
<beck...@angryox.com<mailto:beck...@angryox.com>> wrote:
That's a great story Anthony! It's similar to my issues. I already do this
for termination. DID and SMS issues are more difficult to manage. And the
issues you have with one carrier that drives you to mass port your DIDs
that you hope to escape start happening with your new carrier.

I wish carriers would have the same level of visibility in their service
and infrastructure as you seemed to have with Intellisight, and then fix
the problems proactively when they find them.

"What gets measured gets managed."

So true. So elusive in this business.

Beckman

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015, Anthony Orlando wrote:
You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a
product from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us the ability to
monitor carriers (and other managed objects) with defined sets of KPI's.
 Once I saw a carrier have issues (PDD, quality, excessive 503's) I used
to call them and tell them they had a problem.  Hours or days later they
would resolve.  I got away from that practice and just routed around
them.   Funny how they notice that.  Once the issue was resolved I put
them in a penalty box and slowly added traffic.  Once they realized I was
measuring their performance and there would be financial repercussions
it's amazing how the quality of their under lying carriers improved.  My
carrier ticket count dropped by 25-30%.

---
Peter Beckman  Internet Guy
beck...@angryox.com<mailto:beck...@angryox.com> 
http://www.angryox.com/
---

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Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Aryn Nakaoka 808.356.2901]

Is there a centralized report of Tier 1 ISPs? It would be great to know who
has the best performance... I think mass data like that would be difficult
to analyze.

Something similar to http://www.internettrafficreport.com/ - not sure what
this really shows...







Aryn H. K. Nakaoka
anaka...@trinet-hi.com

Direct: 808.356.2901
Fax : 808.356.2919

Tri-net Solutions
733 Bishop St. #1170
Honolulu, HI 96813
http://www.trinet-hi.com

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On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Ivan Kovacevic <
ivan.kovace...@startelecom.ca> wrote:

>
>
> What would help, and what has been done in other industries (think JD
> Power, Gartner… ok maybe not Gartner) is to have this data aggregated and
> available to view as a part of an industry report.
>
>
>
> So that you can look at Cheap-o-voip.com and say…. “The rates sure look
> good, but their PDD, completion, etc are dismal, I’ll pass”…  That would
> quickly help separate the good from the bad and hopefully drive the
> industry overall to improve those key metrics. I would pay for that sort of
> report, just to avoid wasting time on duds. Or… I would be open to sharing
> data, either as summary data or sanitized CDRs to help drive that sort of
> database.
>
>
>
> Now… if we could only agree on what the key metrics are... it seems that
> everyone has a different measuring stick.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Ivan Kovacevic
>
> Vice President, Client Services
>
> Star Telecom | www.startelecom.ca | SIP Based Services for Contact
> Centers
>
>
>
> *From:* VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] *On Behalf Of *Pete
> E
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 06, 2015 5:14 PM
> *To:* Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com>
> *Cc:* VoiceOps <voiceops@voiceops.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide
>
>
>
> Ditto. We do the same, but it doesn't get us very far. We've recently
> fired two carriers for performance.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com>
> wrote:
>
> That's a great story Anthony! It's similar to my issues. I already do this
> for termination. DID and SMS issues are more difficult to manage. And the
> issues you have with one carrier that drives you to mass port your DIDs
> that you hope to escape start happening with your new carrier.
>
> I wish carriers would have the same level of visibility in their service
> and infrastructure as you seemed to have with Intellisight, and then fix
> the problems proactively when they find them.
>
> "What gets measured gets managed."
>
> So true. So elusive in this business.
>
> Beckman
>
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2015, Anthony Orlando wrote:
>
> You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a
> product from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us the ability to
> monitor carriers (and other managed objects) with defined sets of KPI's.
>  Once I saw a carrier have issues (PDD, quality, excessive 503's) I used
> to call them and tell them they had a problem.  Hours or days later they
> would resolve.  I got away from that practice and just routed around
> them.   Funny how they notice that.  Once the issue was resolved I put
> them in a penalty box and slowly added traffic.  Once they realized I was
> measuring their performance and there would be financial repercussions
> it's amazing how the quality of their under lying carriers improved.  My
> carrier ticket count dropped by 25-30%.
>
>
>
> ---
> Peter Beckman  Internet Guy
> beck...@angryox.com
> http://www.angryox.com/
> ---
>
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
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> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
>
>
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Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Ivan Kovacevic]

What would help, and what has been done in other industries (think JD
Power, Gartner… ok maybe not Gartner) is to have this data aggregated and
available to view as a part of an industry report.



So that you can look at Cheap-o-voip.com and say…. “The rates sure look
good, but their PDD, completion, etc are dismal, I’ll pass”…  That would
quickly help separate the good from the bad and hopefully drive the
industry overall to improve those key metrics. I would pay for that sort of
report, just to avoid wasting time on duds. Or… I would be open to sharing
data, either as summary data or sanitized CDRs to help drive that sort of
database.



Now… if we could only agree on what the key metrics are... it seems that
everyone has a different measuring stick.



Best Regards,



Ivan Kovacevic

Vice President, Client Services

Star Telecom | www.startelecom.ca | SIP Based Services for Contact Centers



*From:* VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] *On Behalf Of *Pete
E
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 06, 2015 5:14 PM
*To:* Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com>
*Cc:* VoiceOps <voiceops@voiceops.org>
*Subject:* Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide



Ditto. We do the same, but it doesn't get us very far. We've recently fired
two carriers for performance.



On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com> wrote:

That's a great story Anthony! It's similar to my issues. I already do this
for termination. DID and SMS issues are more difficult to manage. And the
issues you have with one carrier that drives you to mass port your DIDs
that you hope to escape start happening with your new carrier.

I wish carriers would have the same level of visibility in their service
and infrastructure as you seemed to have with Intellisight, and then fix
the problems proactively when they find them.

"What gets measured gets managed."

So true. So elusive in this business.

Beckman

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015, Anthony Orlando wrote:

You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a
product from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us the ability to
monitor carriers (and other managed objects) with defined sets of KPI's.
 Once I saw a carrier have issues (PDD, quality, excessive 503's) I used
to call them and tell them they had a problem.  Hours or days later they
would resolve.  I got away from that practice and just routed around
them.   Funny how they notice that.  Once the issue was resolved I put
them in a penalty box and slowly added traffic.  Once they realized I was
measuring their performance and there would be financial repercussions
it's amazing how the quality of their under lying carriers improved.  My
carrier ticket count dropped by 25-30%.



---
Peter Beckman  Internet Guy
beck...@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
---


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Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Nikolay Shopik]

Maybe its show lack of quality/affordable products in this area
(monitoring voip)?

On 6/10/2015 18:27, Peter Beckman wrote:
> In the last 3 months I've been consistently frustrated by my carriers.
> 
> "3-4 minutes is acceptable delay for delivery of SMS messages."
> 
> "Our termination change now throws 504s instead of 503s 20-50% of the
>  time and adds 2-3 seconds of delay to your call attempts. We didn't
>  notice, and though you did, it's been 3 days and we haven't fixed it.
>  Sorry!"
> 
> "There was an outage? Works for me now!"
> 
> "Someone upstream is intentionally dropping SMS messages. But we can't
>  say who it is, and we can't get them to fix it because they aren't our
>  carrier."
> 
> Does the industry just suck at knowing when their stuff is broken, or only
> react when enough customers complain? Do carriers simply not instrument,
> monitor or graph metrics of their operations and proactively monitor and
> fix issues?
> 
> My Thresholds:
> * SMS delivery end-to-end: Under 10 seconds
> * 503 Route Advance: Under 1 second
> * Response/Notice to termination/API/origination/server outage: 20
> minutes
> * Fix a major issue (or provide a fix timeline): 3 days
> 
> Too many times in the last few months _I_ have been the canary in the
> carrier's coal mine bringing attention to places where their operations are
> broken or delayed. And even then, unless I escalate to management (like CEO
> level), things move at the speed of a sloth. Most of the time it seems I
> monitor my carrier's infrastructure more closely than they do.
> 
> I hope and dream of the unicorn carrier -- such great operational awareness
> and execution that it doesn't matter how great their customer service is,
> I'll never have to talk to them.
> 
> Beckman
> ---
> Peter Beckman  Internet Guy
> beck...@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
> ---
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Paul Stamoulis]

You guys are discovering the dirty little secrets of voice service and why 
Quality of Service (QoS) has fallen of a cliff... I have been doing int’l voice 
termination and networks for nearly 30 years now and back then it was 
“big-iron” switches and dedicated circuits costing lots of money... with 
monthly expense high, a carrier had to properly cost justify every connection 
and pay attention to the results..QoS was NOT a problem and pretty much 
everything connected and sounded well.

Then VoIP came along and as the MBA’say, “Barriers to entry” disappeared... 
lots and lots of small operators came along with little QoS rules and started 
hawking their wares...on the demand side, telco’s became indiscriminate about 
who and how many  they inter-connected with since it did not cost much for a 
voip connection (compared to nailed up TDM circuits!)

and on it went,, 10 years later and no real standardization of QoS has been 
created. Companies have services with names like “standard quality service” 
translate this to “cheap but nothing works” and “premium quality” which is 
better..  Nowadays, with USA AND Int’l voice termination, carriers spend their 
efforts on managing the rates (not the QoS) lest they screw up and go negative 
margins, get cherry picked or increase rate disputes (the bane of our 
industry..)

We need standardization like you reference and our company is building an 
online system to develop exactly those standard of quality with Int’l voice.  
as a short term solution, we do NOT deal with “a-z standard rates” since there 
is no way we can test the thousands of rate destinations. Instead we accept 
only one or two int’l destinations from any one vendor and then we manually 
test prior to production routing.. this is pretty much the only way you can now 
guarantee any sort of QoS. Hopefully we will come up with better long term 
solutions in the years to come.

Paul Stamoulis +1 212 444 3003

www.OneStopTel.net<http://www.onestoptel.net/>   Thousands of Carriers...One 
Connection!
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From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Ivan 
Kovacevic
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 2:29 PM
To: Anthony Orlando <avorla...@yahoo.com>; Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com>; 
voiceops@voiceops.org
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

We have had to cook up our own monitoring and right now it consists of:


a)  OPTIONS/ping/latency/jitter monitoring of IP addresses for each vendor

b)  Near real time monitoring with email alerts and CDR examples whenever 
each vendor falls out of bounds on:

Percentage of connected calls (with a breakdown of TOP 5 SIP failure responses 
(503, 404, 403, etc).

Percentage of PDD calls (8 seconds or more)

This is a pretty blunt tool, but it has helped identify cases where a vendor 
goes completely down or has systemic problems that are noticeable to customers.

We have been reaching out to carriers proactively, problem CDRs are sent along 
with the alert email, which makes it easy to forward. However I am not sure, 
doing so actually improves anything. The penalty box approach may work better.

Best Regards,

Ivan Kovacevic
Vice President, Client Services
Star Telecom | www.startelecom.ca<http://www.startelecom.ca/> | SIP Based 
Services for Contact Centers | 
LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/company/star-telecom-www.startelecom.ca-?trk=top_nav_home>
From: VoiceOps 
[mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org>] On 
Behalf Of Anthony Orlando via VoiceOps
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 12:19 PM
To: Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com<mailto:beck...@angryox.com>>; VoiceOps 
<voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>>
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a product 
from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us

Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Pete E]

Ditto. We do the same, but it doesn't get us very far. We've recently fired
two carriers for performance.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Peter Beckman  wrote:

> That's a great story Anthony! It's similar to my issues. I already do this
> for termination. DID and SMS issues are more difficult to manage. And the
> issues you have with one carrier that drives you to mass port your DIDs
> that you hope to escape start happening with your new carrier.
>
> I wish carriers would have the same level of visibility in their service
> and infrastructure as you seemed to have with Intellisight, and then fix
> the problems proactively when they find them.
>
> "What gets measured gets managed."
>
> So true. So elusive in this business.
>
> Beckman
>
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2015, Anthony Orlando wrote:
>
> You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a
>> product from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us the ability to
>> monitor carriers (and other managed objects) with defined sets of KPI's.
>>  Once I saw a carrier have issues (PDD, quality, excessive 503's) I used
>> to call them and tell them they had a problem.  Hours or days later they
>> would resolve.  I got away from that practice and just routed around
>> them.   Funny how they notice that.  Once the issue was resolved I put
>> them in a penalty box and slowly added traffic.  Once they realized I was
>> measuring their performance and there would be financial repercussions
>> it's amazing how the quality of their under lying carriers improved.  My
>> carrier ticket count dropped by 25-30%.
>>
>
> ---
> Peter Beckman  Internet Guy
> beck...@angryox.com
> http://www.angryox.com/
> ---
>
> ___
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> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
>
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Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Peter Beckman]

That's a great story Anthony! It's similar to my issues. I already do this
for termination. DID and SMS issues are more difficult to manage. And the
issues you have with one carrier that drives you to mass port your DIDs
that you hope to escape start happening with your new carrier.

I wish carriers would have the same level of visibility in their service
and infrastructure as you seemed to have with Intellisight, and then fix
the problems proactively when they find them.

"What gets measured gets managed."

So true. So elusive in this business.

Beckman

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015, Anthony Orlando wrote:


You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a
product from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us the ability to
monitor carriers (and other managed objects) with defined sets of KPI's.
 Once I saw a carrier have issues (PDD, quality, excessive 503's) I used
to call them and tell them they had a problem.  Hours or days later they
would resolve.  I got away from that practice and just routed around
them.   Funny how they notice that.  Once the issue was resolved I put
them in a penalty box and slowly added traffic.  Once they realized I was
measuring their performance and there would be financial repercussions
it's amazing how the quality of their under lying carriers improved.  My
carrier ticket count dropped by 25-30%.


---
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beck...@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
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Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Anthony Orlando via VoiceOps]

You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a product 
from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us the ability to monitor carriers 
(and other managed objects) with defined sets of KPI's.  Once I saw a carrier 
have issues (PDD, quality, excessive 503's) I used to call them and tell them 
they had a problem.  Hours or days later they would resolve.  I got away from 
that practice and just routed around them.   Funny how they notice that.  Once 
the issue was resolved I put them in a penalty box and slowly added traffic.  
Once they realized I was measuring their performance and there would be 
financial repercussions it's amazing how the quality of their under lying 
carriers improved.  My carrier ticket count dropped by 25-30%.
  From: Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com>
 To: VoiceOps <voiceops@voiceops.org> 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2015 10:27 AM
 Subject: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide
   
In the last 3 months I've been consistently frustrated by my carriers.

    "3-4 minutes is acceptable delay for delivery of SMS messages."

    "Our termination change now throws 504s instead of 503s 20-50% of the
      time and adds 2-3 seconds of delay to your call attempts. We didn't
      notice, and though you did, it's been 3 days and we haven't fixed it.
      Sorry!"

    "There was an outage? Works for me now!"

    "Someone upstream is intentionally dropping SMS messages. But we can't
      say who it is, and we can't get them to fix it because they aren't our
      carrier."

Does the industry just suck at knowing when their stuff is broken, or only
react when enough customers complain? Do carriers simply not instrument,
monitor or graph metrics of their operations and proactively monitor and
fix issues?

My Thresholds:
    * SMS delivery end-to-end: Under 10 seconds
    * 503 Route Advance: Under 1 second
    * Response/Notice to termination/API/origination/server outage: 20 minutes
    * Fix a major issue (or provide a fix timeline): 3 days

Too many times in the last few months _I_ have been the canary in the
carrier's coal mine bringing attention to places where their operations are
broken or delayed. And even then, unless I escalate to management (like CEO
level), things move at the speed of a sloth. Most of the time it seems I
monitor my carrier's infrastructure more closely than they do.

I hope and dream of the unicorn carrier -- such great operational awareness
and execution that it doesn't matter how great their customer service is,
I'll never have to talk to them.

Beckman
---
Peter Beckman                                                  Internet Guy
beck...@angryox.com                                http://www.angryox.com/
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Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide

[Anthony Orlando via VoiceOps]

Just to be clear that was my OB traffic not my IB.  That's a whole different 
ball game. 
  From: Peter Beckman <beck...@angryox.com>
 To: Anthony Orlando <avorla...@yahoo.com> 
Cc: VoiceOps <voiceops@voiceops.org> 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2015 11:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Lack of Quality Industry-wide
   
That's a great story Anthony! It's similar to my issues. I already do this
for termination. DID and SMS issues are more difficult to manage. And the
issues you have with one carrier that drives you to mass port your DIDs
that you hope to escape start happening with your new carrier.

I wish carriers would have the same level of visibility in their service
and infrastructure as you seemed to have with Intellisight, and then fix
the problems proactively when they find them.

    "What gets measured gets managed."

So true. So elusive in this business.

Beckman



On Tue, 6 Oct 2015, Anthony Orlando wrote:

> You are correct Peter.  It's a  constant struggle.  For years I used a
> product from Empirix called Intelisight.  It gave us the ability to
> monitor carriers (and other managed objects) with defined sets of KPI's.
>  Once I saw a carrier have issues (PDD, quality, excessive 503's) I used
> to call them and tell them they had a problem.  Hours or days later they
> would resolve.  I got away from that practice and just routed around
> them.   Funny how they notice that.  Once the issue was resolved I put
> them in a penalty box and slowly added traffic.  Once they realized I was
> measuring their performance and there would be financial repercussions
> it's amazing how the quality of their under lying carriers improved.  My
> carrier ticket count dropped by 25-30%.

---
Peter Beckman                                                  Internet Guy
beck...@angryox.com                                http://www.angryox.com/
-

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