RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons? In a neutron-rich tin nucleus, electromagnetism can win over the strong force

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

This report is another nail in Standard Model’s coffin.Folks should take a 
look at the theory of P Hatt to understand better what happens in the tin 
situation.

 Bill Stubb’s item in Infinite Energy last year evaluating high energy electron 
scattering experiments is also instructive in IMHO.

Bob Cook


From: Alan Fletcher<mailto:a...@well.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 9:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons? In a neutron-rich tin nucleus, electromagnetism 
can win over the strong force

Just wondering if this might be relevent to one of the Cold Fusion "miracles"

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-neutron-rich-tin-nucleus-electromagnetism-strong.html

In a recent experiment ... scientists .. made a very surprising observation: 
High-energy gamma rays—which are mediated by the electromagnetic force—are 
emitted in the decay of a certain excited nucleus—tin 133, in competition with 
neutron emission, the decay mode mediated by the strong nuclear force. This is 
despite the fact that the neutron emission was expected to be orders of 
magnitude faster since the force is much stronger.

...

The RIBF results suggest that structure effects, which are commonly neglected 
in the evaluation of neutron-emission probabilities in calculations of global 
beta-decay properties for astrophysical simulations, are much more important 
than generally assumed
...
--
Alan Fletcher <a...@well.com>

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons? In a neutron-rich tin nucleus, electromagnetism can win over the strong force

[Kevin O'Malley]

Maybe we should change the name of LENR to remove the 'Nuclear' connotation
and just call it Structure Effect HyperChemical Reactions, SEHCR.Just
because there's a high energy gamma ray DURING the process doesn't mean
that we have to deal with gamma rays as a RESULT of it.So by it not
being a 'nuclear' process, it will be monitored by standard industry
watchdogs rather than the NRC.

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Alan Fletcher  wrote:

> Just wondering if this might be relevent to one of the Cold Fusion
> "miracles"
>
> https://phys.org/news/2017-05-neutron-rich-tin-nucleus-
> electromagnetism-strong.html
>
> In a recent experiment ... scientists .. made a very surprising
> observation: High-energy gamma rays—which are mediated by the
> electromagnetic force—are emitted in the decay of a certain excited
> nucleus—tin 133, in competition with neutron emission, the decay mode
> mediated by the strong nuclear force. This is despite the fact that the
> neutron emission was expected to be orders of magnitude faster since the
> force is much stronger.
>
> ...
>
> The RIBF results suggest that structure effects, which are commonly
> neglected in the evaluation of neutron-emission probabilities in
> calculations of global beta-decay properties for astrophysical simulations,
> are much more important than generally assumed
> ...
> --
> Alan Fletcher 
>
>

[Vo]:Missing Neutrons? In a neutron-rich tin nucleus, electromagnetism can win over the strong force

[Alan Fletcher]

Just wondering if this might be relevent to one of the Cold Fusion "miracles"

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-neutron-rich-tin-nucleus-electromagnetism-strong.html

In a recent experiment ... scientists .. made a very surprising observation: 
High-energy gamma rays—which are mediated by the electromagnetic force—are 
emitted in the decay of a certain excited nucleus—tin 133, in competition with 
neutron emission, the decay mode mediated by the strong nuclear force. This is 
despite the fact that the neutron emission was expected to be orders of 
magnitude faster since the force is much stronger.

...

The RIBF results suggest that structure effects, which are commonly neglected 
in the evaluation of neutron-emission probabilities in calculations of global 
beta-decay properties for astrophysical simulations, are much more important 
than generally assumed
...
-- 
Alan Fletcher 

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons

[Terry Blanton]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
 Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?

 In a paper recently published in EPJ C¹, researchers hypothesised the
 existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of
 neutrons observed experimentally. The existence of such mirror matter
 had been suggested in various scientific contexts some time ago,
 including the search for suitable dark matter candidates.


 http://phys.org/news/2012-06-neutrons-parallel-world.html

The full paper:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h68g501352t57011/fulltext.pdf

(Sorry if this is a rerun, I might have missed it.)

T

RE: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Roarty, Francis X]

WELL SAID!!

From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:28 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

One more post on this intriguing subject of “disappearing hydrinos” leading to 
anomalous cooling, before passing the pliers to Terry.

We have already mentioned that Dirac’s “reciprocal space” provides an 
alternative venue for this modality, if it really exists – with a lot more 
credibility and less baggage that “parallel universes” … but that also brings 
up other fractal spatial possibilities.

There is a paper on ArXiv – “Huge Casimir effect at finite temperature in 
electromagnetic Rindler space”. Here is the story on a blog:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/proposed-metamaterial-structure-to-test.html
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1110/1110.1919v1.pdf

Anyway – there are several novel connection between fractals, anomalous energy 
gain or loss - and active geometry which is not exactly 3-space, all of which 
keep popping up in the literature from time to time (not unlike quantum foam). 
The message is that particular geometry can somehow alter spacetime - and it is 
more than the actual spatial dimensions in nm, but also the layout and the 
(magnetic) field.

These have a common thread in that there is a known dynamic Casimir effect 
(DCE) which can supply excess energy, due to spatial constraints and relativity 
(i.e. altered spacetime). Consider also: ‘Minkowski Space’ is related to 
‘Rindler Space’ and also to ‘De Sitter Space.’ It is possible that all three of 
these terms relate to a unique fractal of space-time (using ‘fractal’ in the 
original sense of a fractional dimension) which becomes accessible at the 
Forster radius of 2-12 nm.

This is NOT normal 3-space, nor is it 2-space but somewhere in between. Almost 
a wormhole, so to speak. Look at the image here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_spacetime

in the context of this article

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1110/1110.1919v1.pdf

This all fits together in a way that is not easy to verbalize, but seems to 
involve
1)Double vortex in spacetime
2)Vortex flipping and self-oscillation
3)Spatial geometry that relates to the Forster radius (FRET) 2-12 nm
4)Exaggerated vibrational modes
5)Anomaly is not always a gain in temperature – sometimes a loss.

The problem is that this analysis is an early attempt to merge 
mathematical-space with real space.

But what is “real space”, anyway?

Jones


-

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h68g501352t57011/fulltext.pdf

Same story on missing neutrons with graph and the full text site - showing the 
apparent region of interest with a cluster at about .1 Gauss. Of course, 
extending this finding (which could be wrong to begin with) to virtual neutrons 
is a leap. Yet that is what we do here- try to extend the ‘cutting edge’ … 
while avoiding the ‘bleeding edge’… This time there the reference paper is 
extremely suspect, in itself.

Anyway, that small triangle in the graph could be important in the context of 
“nano-magnetism” and the fact that the trigger temperature for Ni-H seems to 
relate to the Curie temperature of nickel. It also tends to show visually how 
difficult hitting the parameter for disappearance would be. The magnetic field 
in question is actually LESS than the Earth's magnetic field at its surface 
which is about .4 Gauss in most places. A typical refrigerator magnet is 50 
Gauss so we have to ask – are they really that accurate with this?

We can imagine that the ‘sweet spot’ – which relates to cryogenic neutrons 
would be much harder to duplicate at 350C. Anyway, on the plus side - I could 
download the paper today from Springer for free, which is unusual since they 
(especially) usually charge a significant fee for carrying out the garbage.

Jones

… perhaps ALL reactions with hydrogen loaded metal result in a mix of the two 
temperature anomalies, hot and cold - even the ones that are massively gainful 
in heat… Those with heat, such as Rossi claims, could be at a ratio of 90/10 
(hot/cold). Perhaps Ahern titanium samples gave 47/53 and it appeared to be 
cooling, but it was only net cooling with significant heat also….If the 
“missing neutron” or “missing hydrino” ends up providing a huge loss of 
mass-energy to the reaction, then that loss covers up a lot of excess heat 
prior to the disappearance.

This can possibly explain why LERN is generally unreliable – a natural tendency 
to produce a balance of excess heat and excess cooling - and it requires some 
unknown intervention to shift the balance. The intervention appears to be a 
magnetic field at only about a tenth of a gauss.

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/64106-missing-neutrons-may-be-visiting-parallel-universe

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h68g501352t57011/fulltext.pdf

 

Same story on missing neutrons with graph and the full text site - showing the 
apparent region of interest with a cluster at about .1 Gauss. Of course, 
extending this finding (which could be wrong to begin with) to virtual neutrons 
is a leap. Yet that is what we do here- try to extend the ‘cutting edge’ … 
while avoiding the ‘bleeding edge’… This time there the reference paper is 
extremely suspect, in itself.

 

Anyway, that small triangle in the graph could be important in the context of 
“nano-magnetism” and the fact that the trigger temperature for Ni-H seems to 
relate to the Curie temperature of nickel. It also tends to show visually how 
difficult hitting the parameter for disappearance would be. The magnetic field 
in question is actually LESS than the Earth's magnetic field at its surface 
which is about .4 Gauss in most places. A typical refrigerator magnet is 50 
Gauss so we have to ask – are they really that accurate with this?

 

We can imagine that the ‘sweet spot’ – which relates to cryogenic neutrons 
would be much harder to duplicate at 350C. Anyway, on the plus side - I could 
download the paper today from Springer for free, which is unusual since they 
(especially) usually charge a significant fee for carrying out the garbage.

 

Jones

 

… perhaps ALL reactions with hydrogen loaded metal result in a mix of the two 
temperature anomalies, hot and cold - even the ones that are massively gainful 
in heat… Those with heat, such as Rossi claims, could be at a ratio of 90/10 
(hot/cold). Perhaps Ahern titanium samples gave 47/53 and it appeared to be 
cooling, but it was only net cooling with significant heat also….If the 
“missing neutron” or “missing hydrino” ends up providing a huge loss of 
mass-energy to the reaction, then that loss covers up a lot of excess heat 
prior to the disappearance.

 

This can possibly explain why LERN is generally unreliable – a natural tendency 
to produce a balance of excess heat and excess cooling - and it requires some 
unknown intervention to shift the balance. The intervention appears to be a 
magnetic field at only about a tenth of a gauss.

 

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Harry Veeder]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
 It is easy to go over the top with dramatization on this one.

 This scenario does not need to involve parallel universes (in the SciFi
 sense) nor anything theological. In fact, Dirac's reciprocal space works
 fine - as the repository for deep hydrinos, and with no other fictional
 baggage so to speak.

It is related to theology (or at least quasi-theology) since most
physicists have faith in CoE.
If they didn't they wouldn't bother to imagine neutrinos and parrallel
universes.

Harry

 BTW - for those who do not grasp what actually happened in the EPRI reports,
 here is a short synopsis of Ahern's experiments. First, there is a well
 insulated reactor with numerous RTDs for accurate temperature measurement.
 The reactor is filled with pressurized hydrogen and various sample
 nanopowders - including an inert control powder. There is a resistance
 heater, drawing in the tens of watts. The current is kept absolutely
 constant to the heater, so that there is no variation on P-in during the
 run.

 With the 'control', you will find from datalogging that a specific rate of
 thermal transfer occurs between the outer RTD, where the heater is located
 and the inner. Hydrogen under pressure is a good conductor of heat so this
 is normally only a few degrees. For example, in the control setup (no active
 powder) one might see 350C on the outside and 340C on the inside. The
 difference is minimal and never varies.

 OK - when one switches from the control to active nanopowder, things get
 interesting and if there is excess energy from the interaction of hydrogen
 with the powder, there will be an inversion, so that the inner RTD becomes
 hotter - often much hotter than the outer. That happens with nano-nickel,
 and the resulting temperature can be close to 100 degrees inverted. This is
 NOT calorimetry, but there are implications to be firmed up on further
 experimentation.

 The interesting part (for this thread) is that with Titanium nanopowder,
 instead of a temperature inversion indicating gain, you get an anomalous
 sink. For instance, instead of an expected 10 degree drop (out-to-in) the
 spread can be much higher, an order of magnitude perhaps, indicating active
 cooling.

 Any round numbers above are for illustration purposes only; but the results
 are shocking and significant in both anomalies - heat and cooling. And guess
 what, the cooling anomaly could be almost as important as the heating, in
 terms of new physics.

 EVEN IF THERE IS NO PATH TO COMERCIALIZATION - for an active cooling
 anomaly, it could be important if it points the way to an accurate
 understanding of the heat. That is where this is going.

 I haven’t heard a better explanation for active nano-cooling than the
 disappearance of matter from one spatial dimension into reciprocal space.
 This space may not be a true dimension, but a fractal instead. Fractal is
 being used in the original way to mean a fractional dimension. Plus, the
 matter which is lost may not be a neutron, per se, but instead a
 maximum-redundant hydrino.

 Essentially, what I think happens with nano-titanium cooling is that the
 nanoparticles - which are a strong Mills' catalyst - collapse to the full
 redundancy in one continuous step - where there is both heat release on
 shrinkage, followed immediately by massive heat loss. on the atomic level,
 when the hydrino essentially disappears into reciprocal space. The net
 result is active cooling. Why it only happens with titanium needs to be
 answered. Perhaps it is a momentum effect of some kind.

 E=mc^2 works both ways, apparently - and when mass disappears - in a
 dimensional sense, so does the corresponding energy it contained. This is
 seen as heat removal from a hot reactor. The active species does not have to
 be 'mirror matter' as in the original article - but if that helps in
 appreciating the view through Alice's 'looking glass' - good! ... it is kind
 of catchy, so let's keep it.

 Jones


 -Original Message-
 From: Harry Veeder

 The mystery of the eternal is now nothing more than CoE.

 Good find - and the implications are a bit convoluted. The curious thing
 is
 that mirror matter neutrons (or deep hydrinos) will explain anomalous heat
 loss quite nicely.

 As you may remember, Ahern reported that some of his Arata-style samples
 demonstrated anomalous heat LOSS (more of the samples show gain than loss,
 and only a few showed nothing).

 This paper, in fact - could explain anomalous heat loss better than
 anything
 I have seen thus far.

 BTW the all of the nanopowder samples which showed thermal loss were made
 of
 nano-titanium embedded in zirconia. All of the nickel and palladium
 samples
 showed gain.

 Jones


 Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?


 In a paper recently published in EPJ C¹, researchers hypothesised the
 existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of
 neutrons observed experimentally. 

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

One more post on this intriguing subject of “disappearing hydrinos” leading to 
anomalous cooling, before passing the pliers to Terry. 

 

We have already mentioned that Dirac’s “reciprocal space” provides an 
alternative venue for this modality, if it really exists – with a lot more 
credibility and less baggage that “parallel universes” … but that also brings 
up other fractal spatial possibilities. 

 

There is a paper on ArXiv – “Huge Casimir effect at finite temperature in 
electromagnetic Rindler space”. Here is the story on a blog:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/proposed-metamaterial-structure-to-test.html

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1110/1110.1919v1.pdf

 

Anyway – there are several novel connection between fractals, anomalous energy 
gain or loss - and active geometry which is not exactly 3-space, all of which 
keep popping up in the literature from time to time (not unlike quantum foam). 
The message is that particular geometry can somehow alter spacetime - and it is 
more than the actual spatial dimensions in nm, but also the layout and the 
(magnetic) field. 

 

These have a common thread in that there is a known dynamic Casimir effect 
(DCE) which can supply excess energy, due to spatial constraints and relativity 
(i.e. altered spacetime). Consider also: ‘Minkowski Space’ is related to 
‘Rindler Space’ and also to ‘De Sitter Space.’ It is possible that all three of 
these terms relate to a unique fractal of space-time (using ‘fractal’ in the 
original sense of a fractional dimension) which becomes accessible at the 
Forster radius of 2-12 nm. 

 

This is NOT normal 3-space, nor is it 2-space but somewhere in between. Almost 
a wormhole, so to speak. Look at the image here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_spacetime

 

in the context of this article 

 

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1110/1110.1919v1.pdf

 

This all fits together in a way that is not easy to verbalize, but seems to 
involve 

1)Double vortex in spacetime

2)Vortex flipping and self-oscillation

3)Spatial geometry that relates to the Forster radius (FRET) 2-12 nm

4)Exaggerated vibrational modes

5)Anomaly is not always a gain in temperature – sometimes a loss.

 

The problem is that this analysis is an early attempt to merge 
mathematical-space with real space.

 

But what is “real space”, anyway?

 

Jones

 

 

-

 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h68g501352t57011/fulltext.pdf

 

Same story on missing neutrons with graph and the full text site - showing the 
apparent region of interest with a cluster at about .1 Gauss. Of course, 
extending this finding (which could be wrong to begin with) to virtual neutrons 
is a leap. Yet that is what we do here- try to extend the ‘cutting edge’ … 
while avoiding the ‘bleeding edge’… This time there the reference paper is 
extremely suspect, in itself.

 

Anyway, that small triangle in the graph could be important in the context of 
“nano-magnetism” and the fact that the trigger temperature for Ni-H seems to 
relate to the Curie temperature of nickel. It also tends to show visually how 
difficult hitting the parameter for disappearance would be. The magnetic field 
in question is actually LESS than the Earth's magnetic field at its surface 
which is about .4 Gauss in most places. A typical refrigerator magnet is 50 
Gauss so we have to ask – are they really that accurate with this?

 

We can imagine that the ‘sweet spot’ – which relates to cryogenic neutrons 
would be much harder to duplicate at 350C. Anyway, on the plus side - I could 
download the paper today from Springer for free, which is unusual since they 
(especially) usually charge a significant fee for carrying out the garbage.

 

Jones

 

… perhaps ALL reactions with hydrogen loaded metal result in a mix of the two 
temperature anomalies, hot and cold - even the ones that are massively gainful 
in heat… Those with heat, such as Rossi claims, could be at a ratio of 90/10 
(hot/cold). Perhaps Ahern titanium samples gave 47/53 and it appeared to be 
cooling, but it was only net cooling with significant heat also….If the 
“missing neutron” or “missing hydrino” ends up providing a huge loss of 
mass-energy to the reaction, then that loss covers up a lot of excess heat 
prior to the disappearance.

 

This can possibly explain why LERN is generally unreliable – a natural tendency 
to produce a balance of excess heat and excess cooling - and it requires some 
unknown intervention to shift the balance. The intervention appears to be a 
magnetic field at only about a tenth of a gauss.

 

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Terry Blanton]

TRATEOTU:

The Total Perspective Vortex derives its picture of the whole Universe
on the principle of extrapolated matter analyses.
To explain — since every piece of matter in the Universe is in some
way affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in
theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation — every sun,
every planet, their orbits, their composition and their economic and
social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake.
The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically in
order to annoy his wife.
Trin Tragula — for that was his name — was a dreamer, a thinker, a
speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.
And she would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount
of time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics
of safety pins, or doing spectrographic analyses of pieces of fairy
cake.
Have some sense of proportion! she would say, sometimes as often as
thirty-eight times in a single day.
And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex — just to show her.
And into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from
a piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so
that when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of
creation and herself in relation to it.
To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain;
but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively
that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the
one thing it cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.

end

Maybe Marko Rodin has it right:

http://lifeforcegenie.com/unified-science-of-everything/vortex-based-mathematics.html

T

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

To Terry (master of the one-liner) Blanton,
   R U feeling ill, or just totally bored?
:-)
-mark

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] 

TRATEOTU:

The Total Perspective Vortex derives its picture of the whole Universe on
the principle of extrapolated matter analyses.
To explain — since every piece of matter in the Universe is in some way
affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory
possible to extrapolate the whole of creation — every sun, every planet,
their orbits, their composition and their economic and social history from,
say, one small piece of fairy cake.
The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically in order
to annoy his wife.
Trin Tragula — for that was his name — was a dreamer, a thinker, a
speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.
And she would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of
time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of
safety pins, or doing spectrographic analyses of pieces of fairy cake.
Have some sense of proportion! she would say, sometimes as often as
thirty-eight times in a single day.
And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex — just to show her.
And into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a
piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that
when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation
and herself in relation to it.
To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to
his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is
going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot
afford to have is a sense of proportion.

end

Maybe Marko Rodin has it right:

http://lifeforcegenie.com/unified-science-of-everything/vortex-based-mathema
tics.html

T

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Terry Blanton]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:39 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote:
 To Terry (master of the one-liner) Blanton,
   R U feeling ill, or just totally bored?

Both, actually, mentally.

The quote is from Douglas Adams.

Rodin invented the Rodin coil.

And I didn't even mention Walter Russell and his vortex theories.  So,
I will now:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Walter_Russell

T

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

UPDATE:

I was asked about the EPRI data in the Ahern report - showing cooling with 
titanium nanopowder, and finally got in touch with Brian. 

He did not include the data in the final report, merely a summation. 

He stands by the cooling effect as valid and repeatable; but the effect was not 
as strong as I previously suggested (not an order of magnitude effect).

In conclusion, nano-cooling is a niche which is begging for replication but 
it is not as significant an anomaly as is the heating effect with nickel 
nanopowder.



-Original Message-
From: MarkI-ZeroPoint 

1. If a neutron can disappear into the vacuum, then:
1a. Can a neutron pop INTO this space (spontaneous formation)?

Let me just say this. There have been for a long time - reports of spontaneous 
(anomalous) hydrogen showing up in extreme vacuum conditions. Hydrogen from 
nowhere, essentially. But that phenomenon, if true, has morphed into fringe 
religious bogosity so one hesitates to even mention it. There was an article in 
IE and it has been picked up here, for what it is worth:

http://blog.hasslberger.com/2006/06/hydrogen_from_space_the_aether.html

This is not the same as neutrons from nowhere, except that the neutron has only 
a short half-life, and you expect to see hydrogen in the end. Does that account 
for the hydrogen phenomenon, and if so, where is the decay energy? Does 
trans-dimensional transfer happen isothermally, regardless? (at least from the 
perspective of the host)

That would be the only way it could happen.

Jones

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[David Roberson]

Thanks for the update Jones.  If the cooling effect is valid then it should be 
pursued.  Any time an anomalous occurrence is registered an opportunity to 
discover a new relationship exists which may allow us to fit additional parts 
of the puzzle into place.

I would assume that the cooling process is about as evasive as the heating 
effect.  Please keep us informed about this issue as new data is revealed.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 11:40 am
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)


UPDATE:
I was asked about the EPRI data in the Ahern report - showing cooling with 
itanium nanopowder, and finally got in touch with Brian. 
He did not include the data in the final report, merely a summation. 
He stands by the cooling effect as valid and repeatable; but the effect was not 
s strong as I previously suggested (not an order of magnitude effect).
In conclusion, nano-cooling is a niche which is begging for replication but 
it 
s not as significant an anomaly as is the heating effect with nickel 
anopowder.

-Original Message-
rom: MarkI-ZeroPoint 
1. If a neutron can disappear into the vacuum, then:
1a. Can a neutron pop INTO this space (spontaneous formation)?
Let me just say this. There have been for a long time - reports of spontaneous 
anomalous) hydrogen showing up in extreme vacuum conditions. Hydrogen from 
owhere, essentially. But that phenomenon, if true, has morphed into fringe 
eligious bogosity so one hesitates to even mention it. There was an article in 
E and it has been picked up here, for what it is worth:
http://blog.hasslberger.com/2006/06/hydrogen_from_space_the_aether.html
This is not the same as neutrons from nowhere, except that the neutron has only 
 short half-life, and you expect to see hydrogen in the end. Does that account 
or the hydrogen phenomenon, and if so, where is the decay energy? Does 
rans-dimensional transfer happen isothermally, regardless? (at least from the 
erspective of the host)
That would be the only way it could happen.
Jones

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 8:59 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 Thanks for the update Jones.  If the cooling effect is valid then it
 should be pursued.  Any time an anomalous occurrence is registered an
 opportunity to discover a new relationship exists which may allow us to fit
 additional parts of the puzzle into place.


Agreed.  The cooling effect is very interesting.  It brings the question of
conservation of energy to the fore.  If normal LENR is like a box with a
button on it, which once pressed causes heat to spill out, can you have
another box with a button that, when pressed, causes cooling to occur?  At
face value, it sounds like some basic principle is being violated.  The
secret here might be in the materials, where nickel is used for heating and
titanium is used for cooling.  In the process peaks in the energy potential
of the environment are gradually smoothed out and move towards some kind of
baseline.

If you had large LENR power stations operating over decades and centuries,
pumping heat into the environment, would this just result in a change in
the equilibrium of the environment such that more incoming solar energy
would then be reflected into space, or would there be a need for active
cooling of some kind?

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[David Roberson]

An LENR like technique that achieves active cooling would be an interesting 
discovery.  It is normal for a black body radiator to loose energy and cool 
down by radiation and maybe a method exists to convert some of the thermal 
energy into another form such as neutrinos that can escape any system 
effortlessly.  The natural world may have a lot of fancy 'tricks' that we have 
not yet uncovered.

In normal stellar evolution I understand that iron is the last element 
synthesized within the core.  Additional fusion is actually endothermic and 
would effectively be similar to what is suggested as a sink of energy that 
allows cooling.  Perhaps this discovery is a low temperature variation of this 
effect.

Dave   



-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 2:51 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)


On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 8:59 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:



Thanks for the update Jones.  If the cooling effect is valid then it should be 
pursued.  Any time an anomalous occurrence is registered an opportunity to 
discover a new relationship exists which may allow us to fit additional parts 
of the puzzle into place.



Agreed.  The cooling effect is very interesting.  It brings the question of 
conservation of energy to the fore.  If normal LENR is like a box with a button 
on it, which once pressed causes heat to spill out, can you have another box 
with a button that, when pressed, causes cooling to occur?  At face value, it 
sounds like some basic principle is being violated.  The secret here might be 
in the materials, where nickel is used for heating and titanium is used for 
cooling.  In the process peaks in the energy potential of the environment are 
gradually smoothed out and move towards some kind of baseline.


If you had large LENR power stations operating over decades and centuries, 
pumping heat into the environment, would this just result in a change in the 
equilibrium of the environment such that more incoming solar energy would then 
be reflected into space, or would there be a need for active cooling of some 
kind?


Eric

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

Yesterday, Robin mentioned that under the theory of Mills, the hydrino
cannot be easily contained after it gives up significant energy - and would
eventually migrate out of the structure like a neutron (being subject to
gravity) and eventually “disappear” anyway – so there is no need for another
sudden kind of “disappearance” where mass/energy is completely removed from
the observer’s reality, resulting in cooling. 

Presumably the spent hydrino (from heating) would migrate to the center of
earth, due to its effective density and neutrality, and thus it is almost
completely removed from the observer’s reality as well. The point of
difference being the net loss (or gain) which was seen at the original
source of the reaction. 

I had the thought that the two routes to hydrogen disappearance, if they are
ever proved - could be connected via some kind of CoE linkage. A ‘cosmic
balance sheet’ of sorts. That would involve “reciprocal space” having its
own gravity link. Maybe the hot and cold particles, both formerly hydrogen
atoms, complete the cycle in the earth’s gravity well. 

There has always been talk of a very dense core for earth, denser than any
element – in fact similar to the so-called neutron star. Neutron stars
contain the densest matter that is directly observable, but it is probably
not neutrons per se – more like “quark soup”. Earth may have a few teaspoons
of quark soup material at the very center, a few gigatons where everything
dense goes to get “regauged” according to Bearden, or “regrooved” according
to Firesign.

… don’t crush that dwarf :-)  


From: Eric Walker 

David Roberson wrote:

Thanks for the update Jones.  If the cooling effect is valid
then it should be pursued.  Any time an anomalous occurrence is registered
an opportunity to discover a new relationship exists which may allow us to
fit additional parts of the puzzle into place.

Agreed.  The cooling effect is very interesting.  It brings
the question of conservation of energy to the fore.  If normal LENR is like
a box with a button on it, which once pressed causes heat to spill out, can
you have another box with a button that, when pressed, causes cooling to
occur?  At face value, it sounds like some basic principle is being
violated.  The secret here might be in the materials, where nickel is used
for heating and titanium is used for cooling.  In the process peaks in the
energy potential of the environment are gradually smoothed out and move
towards some kind of baseline.

If you had large LENR power stations operating over decades
and centuries, pumping heat into the environment, would this just result in
a change in the equilibrium of the environment such that more incoming solar
energy would then be reflected into space, or would there be a need for
active cooling of some kind?

Eric

attachment: winmail.dat

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:


 It brings the question of conservation of energy to the fore.  If normal
 LENR is like a box with a button on it, which once pressed causes heat to
 spill out, can you have another box with a button that, when pressed,
 causes cooling to occur?  At face value, it sounds like some basic
 principle is being violated.


I don't think it's CoE that is the problem in this case, it's the second
law of thermodynamics -- entropy can only increase.  If you took the LENR
experiment with the tungsten in which cooling is being observed and placed
the entire apparatus in a calorimeter, wouldn't you expect (require?) the
balance of heat given off by the system to be positive?

The question of nickel v. tungsten is more complex than I implied.  If I
remember correctly, there are experiments with tungsten in which heat was
produced.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:


 The question of nickel v. tungsten is more complex than I implied.  If I
 remember correctly, there are experiments with tungsten in which heat was
 produced.


The experiment involved titanium nanopowder, not tungsten.  But I see now
that there have been experiments using titanium in which power was
produced; in several, around a single watt, and in one, 76 watts.  So if
Brian Ahern's anecdotal data are allowed, titanium can yield both power and
localized cooling (perhaps energy is being fed into the system from the
power outlet to accomplish this).

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Terry Blanton]

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

 … don’t crush that dwarf :-)

Hand me the pliers.

(Without knowing the reference, this sounds crazy.)

T

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:


 So if Brian Ahern's anecdotal data are allowed, titanium can yield both
 power and localized cooling (perhaps energy is being fed into the system
 from the power outlet to accomplish this).


I'm all mixed up.  There are the ice packs, which absorb heat during a
phase transition from solid to liquid.  So (thinking out loud) there need
not be a violation of CoE or the second law of thermodynamics for the
titanium system to cool down, and there is more than one pathway that could
account for this phenomenon.  Importantly, there are temperature and heat,
and in the case of ice packs, latent heat, and they need to be
distinguished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_pack

The temperature of ice packs decreases because they have a high enthalpy
of fusion (not to be confused with nuclear fusion).  But there is still
energy (heat) going into the system, causing the overall energy to increase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

According to the second article, most substances have a positive enthalpy
of fusion, while 3He and 4He have negative enthalpies of fusion at low
temperatures.  This means they freeze rather than melt with the addition of
heat.

Eric

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

As I recall, the titanium experiments with thermal gain have been with 
deuterium. Do you have reference to gain with Ti-H instead of Ti-D?

 

But even if titanium can go either way, and it can be determined that some 
experiments with hydrogen and other “nano-metric” metals result in excess heat, 
and some with cooling, then it will possible to look closely to find what third 
factors are contributory (to whether the reaction goes to net-cooling or 
net-cooling).

 

IOW – what I am saying is that perhaps ALL reactions with hydrogen loaded metal 
result in a mix of the two, even the ones that are massively gainful in heat. 

 

Perhaps those, such as in Rossi claims, are 90/10 (hot/cold). Perhaps Ahern 
titanium samples gave 47/53 and it appeared to be cooling but it was only net 
cooling with significant heat also.

 

If the “missing neutron” or “missing hydrino” ends up with a huge loss of 
mass-energy, then that covers up a lot of excess heat prior to the loss.

 

This can explain why LERN is generally unreliable – a natural tendency to 
produce a balance of excess heat and excess cooling - and it requires some 
unknown intervention to shift the balance.

 

From: Eric Walker  

* 

*   there have been experiments using titanium in which power was produced; in 
several, around a single watt, and in one, 76 watts.  So if Brian Ahern's 
anecdotal data are allowed, titanium can yield both power and localized cooling 
(perhaps energy is being fed into the system from the power outlet to 
accomplish this).

 

Eric

 

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Axil Axil]

Reference:



http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MileyGHnucleartra.pdf




 NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATIONS IN THIN-FILM NICKEL COATINGS UNDERGOING
ELECTROLYSIS

George H. Miley  and James A. Patterson





Other key features observed in Fig. 8 and Fig. 9 that must be accounted for
by any theory include the “gaps” between high yield products and the high
Ag and Cd yields. Ag (and Cd) production is particularly challenging, since
*Ag occurs in large quantities but is not favored energetically. Ag’s
position, well to the lower binding energy side of Ni, infers an
endothermic reaction (negative Q-value), which in turn suggests energy
transfer to the reactants must occur to drive the reaction. *(This is
analogous to driving negative Q-value reactions by colliding high-energy
reactants using accelerated beams. As defined here, Q values are the energy
released due to the mass difference between reactants and products,
assuming that the reactants enter with zero kinetic or excitation energy.)
Consequently, the model must contain a mechanism for energy
storage/transfer to reactions involved in high Z element production.
A postulated reaction model, RIFEX (Reaction in a Film-Excited CompleX), is
under development to satisfy these key characteristics. A major feature of
RIFEX is that protons (p) interacting with the host Ni and neighboring
isotopes produces a relatively long lived atom-p complex with excitation
energies of orders of several MeV. *This allows production of elements such
as Ag with Q-value reactions. Seemingly, other products with a negative Q
value are produced via fission of compound nuclei. *This model will be
presented in detail in a future publication.


What kind of transmutation is going on. Heavy elements like Ag


On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 I wrote:


 So if Brian Ahern's anecdotal data are allowed, titanium can yield both
 power and localized cooling (perhaps energy is being fed into the system
 from the power outlet to accomplish this).


 I'm all mixed up.  There are the ice packs, which absorb heat during a
 phase transition from solid to liquid.  So (thinking out loud) there need
 not be a violation of CoE or the second law of thermodynamics for the
 titanium system to cool down, and there is more than one pathway that could
 account for this phenomenon.  Importantly, there are temperature and heat,
 and in the case of ice packs, latent heat, and they need to be
 distinguished.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_pack

 The temperature of ice packs decreases because they have a high enthalpy
 of fusion (not to be confused with nuclear fusion).  But there is still
 energy (heat) going into the system, causing the overall energy to increase.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

 According to the second article, most substances have a positive enthalpy
 of fusion, while 3He and 4He have negative enthalpies of fusion at low
 temperatures.  This means they freeze rather than melt with the addition of
 heat.

 Eric

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]

-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 10:38 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)


It is easy to go over the top with dramatization on this one. ...

...The interesting part (for this thread) is that with Titanium nanopowder,
instead of a temperature inversion indicating gain, you get an anomalous
sink. For instance, instead of an expected 10 degree drop (out-to-in) the
spread can be much higher, an order of magnitude perhaps, indicating
active
cooling.

I can think of many practical uses for an energy sink -- From car brakes
that don't get hot to laptop coolers, and perhaps more importantly, the
efficiency of a heat engine goes up quite fast the cooler the cold sink is,
reaching 100% at absolute zero -- free energy from ambient temperature.

There is also some anecdotal evidence that when a Steorn effect free
energy motor is run backwards, it absorbs kinetic energy without getting
hot.  There really does seem to be something to this magnetic interaction
effect.  Several engineers including a professional engineer hired to
independently verify it did verify it in a formal report.  Also see:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cRQu7M192g

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[mixent]

In reply to  David Roberson's message of Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:27:19 -0400 (EDT):
Hi,
[snip]

Perhaps the neutrons are captured in some manner and allowed to decay into 
proton, electron, and an electron antineutrino.  The antineutrino would easily 
escape the system carrying away mass and energy.

The total kinetic energy associated with the neutron in the test system would 
be reduced by that carried away.  Temperature is a measure of kinetic energy.

A lot depends upon the magnitude of energy that is carried away by the 
antineutrino.  If it carries away all of the energy required to make a neutron 
from the parts, then this process might explain the loss of heat.

Dave

In the context of WL this might actually make sense. If the additional electron
mass required to create the neutron in the first place came at the expense of
thermal energy of the lattice, then the lattice would cool when the neutrons
were created. If they decay without fusing, then on average about 580 keV is
lost with the antineutrino. (Some may also be lost with the neutrino when the
neutron is formed?)
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons

[Harry Veeder]

The mystery of the eternal is now nothing more than CoE.


Harry

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
 Good find - and the implications are a bit convoluted. The curious thing is
 that mirror matter neutrons (or deep hydrinos) will explain anomalous heat
 loss quite nicely.

 As you may remember, Ahern reported that some of his Arata-style samples
 demonstrated anomalous heat LOSS (more of the samples show gain than loss,
 and only a few showed nothing).

 This paper, in fact - could explain anomalous heat loss better than anything
 I have seen thus far.

 BTW the all of the nanopowder samples which showed thermal loss were made of
 nano-titanium embedded in zirconia. All of the nickel and palladium samples
 showed gain.

 Jones


 -Original Message-
 From: Harry Veeder

 What drives such theory making is the need to uphold CoE.
 Harry

 Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?

 In a paper recently published in EPJ C¹, researchers hypothesised the
 existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of
 neutrons observed experimentally. The existence of such mirror matter
 had been suggested in various scientific contexts some time ago,
 including the search for suitable dark matter candidates.


 http://phys.org/news/2012-06-neutrons-parallel-world.html

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

It is easy to go over the top with dramatization on this one.

This scenario does not need to involve parallel universes (in the SciFi
sense) nor anything theological. In fact, Dirac's reciprocal space works
fine - as the repository for deep hydrinos, and with no other fictional
baggage so to speak.

BTW - for those who do not grasp what actually happened in the EPRI reports,
here is a short synopsis of Ahern's experiments. First, there is a well
insulated reactor with numerous RTDs for accurate temperature measurement.
The reactor is filled with pressurized hydrogen and various sample
nanopowders - including an inert control powder. There is a resistance
heater, drawing in the tens of watts. The current is kept absolutely
constant to the heater, so that there is no variation on P-in during the
run. 

With the 'control', you will find from datalogging that a specific rate of
thermal transfer occurs between the outer RTD, where the heater is located
and the inner. Hydrogen under pressure is a good conductor of heat so this
is normally only a few degrees. For example, in the control setup (no active
powder) one might see 350C on the outside and 340C on the inside. The
difference is minimal and never varies.

OK - when one switches from the control to active nanopowder, things get
interesting and if there is excess energy from the interaction of hydrogen
with the powder, there will be an inversion, so that the inner RTD becomes
hotter - often much hotter than the outer. That happens with nano-nickel,
and the resulting temperature can be close to 100 degrees inverted. This is
NOT calorimetry, but there are implications to be firmed up on further
experimentation.

The interesting part (for this thread) is that with Titanium nanopowder,
instead of a temperature inversion indicating gain, you get an anomalous
sink. For instance, instead of an expected 10 degree drop (out-to-in) the
spread can be much higher, an order of magnitude perhaps, indicating active
cooling. 

Any round numbers above are for illustration purposes only; but the results
are shocking and significant in both anomalies - heat and cooling. And guess
what, the cooling anomaly could be almost as important as the heating, in
terms of new physics. 

EVEN IF THERE IS NO PATH TO COMERCIALIZATION - for an active cooling
anomaly, it could be important if it points the way to an accurate
understanding of the heat. That is where this is going.

I haven’t heard a better explanation for active nano-cooling than the
disappearance of matter from one spatial dimension into reciprocal space.
This space may not be a true dimension, but a fractal instead. Fractal is
being used in the original way to mean a fractional dimension. Plus, the
matter which is lost may not be a neutron, per se, but instead a
maximum-redundant hydrino.

Essentially, what I think happens with nano-titanium cooling is that the
nanoparticles - which are a strong Mills' catalyst - collapse to the full
redundancy in one continuous step - where there is both heat release on
shrinkage, followed immediately by massive heat loss. on the atomic level,
when the hydrino essentially disappears into reciprocal space. The net
result is active cooling. Why it only happens with titanium needs to be
answered. Perhaps it is a momentum effect of some kind.

E=mc^2 works both ways, apparently - and when mass disappears - in a
dimensional sense, so does the corresponding energy it contained. This is
seen as heat removal from a hot reactor. The active species does not have to
be 'mirror matter' as in the original article - but if that helps in
appreciating the view through Alice's 'looking glass' - good! ... it is kind
of catchy, so let's keep it.

Jones


-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder 

The mystery of the eternal is now nothing more than CoE.

 Good find - and the implications are a bit convoluted. The curious thing
is
 that mirror matter neutrons (or deep hydrinos) will explain anomalous heat
 loss quite nicely.

 As you may remember, Ahern reported that some of his Arata-style samples
 demonstrated anomalous heat LOSS (more of the samples show gain than loss,
 and only a few showed nothing).

 This paper, in fact - could explain anomalous heat loss better than
anything
 I have seen thus far.

 BTW the all of the nanopowder samples which showed thermal loss were made
of
 nano-titanium embedded in zirconia. All of the nickel and palladium
samples
 showed gain.

 Jones


 Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?


 In a paper recently published in EPJ C¹, researchers hypothesised the
 existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of
 neutrons observed experimentally. The existence of such mirror matter
 had been suggested in various scientific contexts some time ago,
 including the search for suitable dark matter candidates.


 http://phys.org/news/2012-06-neutrons-parallel-world.html

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:37:36 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
The current is kept absolutely
constant to the heater, so that there is no variation on P-in during the
run. 

Resistance heaters usually have a resistance that is temperature dependant (at
least to some degree), so a constant current doesn't necessarily imply constant
power.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:37:36 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
The interesting part (for this thread) is that with Titanium nanopowder,
instead of a temperature inversion indicating gain, you get an anomalous
sink. For instance, instead of an expected 10 degree drop (out-to-in) the
spread can be much higher, an order of magnitude perhaps, indicating active
cooling. 

Perhaps an endothermic chemical reaction?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:37:36 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
Essentially, what I think happens with nano-titanium cooling is that the
nanoparticles - which are a strong Mills' catalyst - collapse to the full
redundancy in one continuous step - where there is both heat release on
shrinkage, followed immediately by massive heat loss. on the atomic level,
when the hydrino essentially disappears into reciprocal space. The net
result is active cooling. Why it only happens with titanium needs to be
answered. Perhaps it is a momentum effect of some kind.

They don't need to disappear into reciprocal space. Hydrino molecules can quite
easily disappear into ordinary space. They can simply migrate through the atomic
interstices of the container wall into the atmosphere. ;-)

However the energy lost in this manner is never going to be more than a few meV
(milli-eV)/ molecule (i.e. normal thermal kinetic energy), and could in no way
compensate for the energy of formation (at least 10's of eV / molecule).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:37:36 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
E=mc^2 works both ways, apparently - and when mass disappears - in a
dimensional sense, so does the corresponding energy it contained. This is
seen as heat removal from a hot reactor. The active species does not have to
be 'mirror matter' as in the original article - but if that helps in
appreciating the view through Alice's 'looking glass' - good! ... it is kind
of catchy, so let's keep it.

Why would Hydrinos be any more likely to interact with another dimension than
ordinary matter?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

-Original Message-
From: mix...@bigpond.com 

Why would Hydrinos be any more likely to interact with another dimension
than
ordinary matter?


Hi Robin,

Why would neutrons? This is all based on the speculative paper cited.

The paper apparently does not go into much detail on an underlying
rationale, and neither did I. 

But if neutrons would disappear from 3-space via some kind of oscillation
(neutrino-like), then maximally reduced hydrinos could possibly do the same.

The cooling seen is not chemical (endothermic) so it is hard to explain
otherwise.

Jones

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[David Roberson]

Perhaps the neutrons are captured in some manner and allowed to decay into 
proton, electron, and an electron antineutrino.  The antineutrino would easily 
escape the system carrying away mass and energy.

The total kinetic energy associated with the neutron in the test system would 
be reduced by that carried away.  Temperature is a measure of kinetic energy.

A lot depends upon the magnitude of energy that is carried away by the 
antineutrino.  If it carries away all of the energy required to make a neutron 
from the parts, then this process might explain the loss of heat.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Jun 16, 2012 8:01 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)



Original Message-
rom: mix...@bigpond.com 
Why would Hydrinos be any more likely to interact with another dimension
han
rdinary matter?

i Robin,
Why would neutrons? This is all based on the speculative paper cited.
The paper apparently does not go into much detail on an underlying
ationale, and neither did I. 
But if neutrons would disappear from 3-space via some kind of oscillation
neutrino-like), then maximally reduced hydrinos could possibly do the same.
The cooling seen is not chemical (endothermic) so it is hard to explain
therwise.
Jones

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

-Original Message-
From: mix...@bigpond.com 

 They don't need to disappear into reciprocal space. 

This isn't about need Robin - it is about explaining results. Most of the
time, of course, this kind of cooling reaction simply does not happen. Do
you know of any other reports of anomalous cooling?

 Hydrino molecules can quite easily disappear into ordinary space. They can
simply migrate through the atomic interstices of the container wall into the
atmosphere. 

Yes, of course ... at least if they are real - then that is probably true.
But in that case there is only excess heat - not anomalous cooling. 

IOW, that will not explain a cooling effect, as you acknowledge, so why
mention it? The Ahern results are beyond any possible chemical effect. The
purpose of the posting was to present a possible rationale involving a new
kind of fractional hydrogen reaction, where the assumptions are very
different. Net cooling instead of heating. 

The common denominator seems to be simple - if neutrons can do this
disappearing act, then virtual neutrons (maximum redundancy hydrogen) can
possibly do the same. In neither case am I claiming it is anything more than
a remote possibility.

When I opined that there could be some kind of momentum effect what I
meant was that in certain circumstances the entire sequence from atomic
hydrogen to virtual neutron happens as one unstoppable progression, unlike
the Mills' hydrino - which is a sequential chain of reactions which occurs
in up to 137 steps. 

After all, this thread is merely the start of a new hypothesis, at this time
- with which to explain new phenomena which previously was beyond
explanation. Maybe it will not survive more accurate objections, but one
cannot disqualify it easily by suggesting that another unproved presumption
(Mills hydrinos operating in only one way) makes it not possible :-) simply
because Mills himself may have overlooked another feature of a broader
phenomena.

Jones
attachment: winmail.dat

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Terry Blanton]

Seems to me the Sea of Negative Energy must be involved and
Feynman's Nobel might be revoked.

T

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

1. If a neutron can disappear into the vacuum, then:
1a. Can a neutron pop INTO this space (spontaneous formation)?
2. For every neutron that exits, does another enter this space (to balance 
things, remember CoE!)?
3. If either #1 or #1a are possible, and not #2, then CoE gets tossed out the 
window!

Altho, for all practical purposes, CoE would still appear to be intact, BUT, if 
we can optimize the popping out of existence within some object, and it happens 
often enough, then it would be possible to violate CoE within that object.

Jones just opened a can of worms... and the feast begins!
:-)
-Mark
_
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:29 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)


-Original Message-
From: mix...@bigpond.com 

 They don't need to disappear into reciprocal space. 

This isn't about need Robin - it is about explaining results. Most of the 
time, of course, this kind of cooling reaction simply does not happen. Do you 
know of any other reports of anomalous cooling?

 Hydrino molecules can quite easily disappear into ordinary space. They can 
 simply migrate through the atomic interstices of the container wall into the 
 atmosphere. 

Yes, of course ... at least if they are real - then that is probably true. But 
in that case there is only excess heat - not anomalous cooling. 

IOW, that will not explain a cooling effect, as you acknowledge, so why mention 
it? The Ahern results are beyond any possible chemical effect. The purpose of 
the posting was to present a possible rationale involving a new kind of 
fractional hydrogen reaction, where the assumptions are very different. Net 
cooling instead of heating. 

The common denominator seems to be simple - if neutrons can do this 
disappearing act, then virtual neutrons (maximum redundancy hydrogen) can 
possibly do the same. In neither case am I claiming it is anything more than a 
remote possibility.

When I opined that there could be some kind of momentum effect what I meant 
was that in certain circumstances the entire sequence from atomic hydrogen to 
virtual neutron happens as one unstoppable progression, unlike the Mills' 
hydrino - which is a sequential chain of reactions which occurs in up to 137 
steps. 

After all, this thread is merely the start of a new hypothesis, at this time - 
with which to explain new phenomena which previously was beyond explanation. 
Maybe it will not survive more accurate objections, but one cannot disqualify 
it easily by suggesting that another unproved presumption (Mills hydrinos 
operating in only one way) makes it not possible ☺ simply because Mills himself 
may have overlooked another feature of a broader phenomena.

Jones

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[David Roberson]

Let us not throw away the CoE too fast.  I suggest that an solution will one 
day appear that does not do this.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Jun 16, 2012 9:15 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)


1. If a neutron can disappear into the vacuum, then:
1a. Can a neutron pop INTO this space (spontaneous formation)?
. For every neutron that exits, does another enter this space (to balance 
hings, remember CoE!)?
. If either #1 or #1a are possible, and not #2, then CoE gets tossed out the 
indow!
Altho, for all practical purposes, CoE would still appear to be intact, BUT, if 
e can optimize the popping out of existence within some object, and it happens 
ften enough, then it would be possible to violate CoE within that object.
Jones just opened a can of worms... and the feast begins!
-)
Mark

rom: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] 
ent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:29 PM
o: vortex-l@eskimo.com
ubject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

Original Message-
rom: mix...@bigpond.com 
 They don't need to disappear into reciprocal space. 
This isn't about need Robin - it is about explaining results. Most of the 
ime, of course, this kind of cooling reaction simply does not happen. Do you 
now of any other reports of anomalous cooling?
 Hydrino molecules can quite easily disappear into ordinary space. They can 
imply migrate through the atomic interstices of the container wall into the 
tmosphere. 
Yes, of course ... at least if they are real - then that is probably true. But 
n that case there is only excess heat - not anomalous cooling. 
IOW, that will not explain a cooling effect, as you acknowledge, so why mention 
t? The Ahern results are beyond any possible chemical effect. The purpose of 
he posting was to present a possible rationale involving a new kind of 
ractional hydrogen reaction, where the assumptions are very different. Net 
ooling instead of heating. 
The common denominator seems to be simple - if neutrons can do this 
disappearing 
ct, then virtual neutrons (maximum redundancy hydrogen) can possibly do the 
ame. In neither case am I claiming it is anything more than a remote 
ossibility.
When I opined that there could be some kind of momentum effect what I meant 
as that in certain circumstances the entire sequence from atomic hydrogen to 
irtual neutron happens as one unstoppable progression, unlike the Mills' 
ydrino - which is a sequential chain of reactions which occurs in up to 137 
teps. 
After all, this thread is merely the start of a new hypothesis, at this time - 
ith which to explain new phenomena which previously was beyond explanation. 
aybe it will not survive more accurate objections, but one cannot disqualify it 
asily by suggesting that another unproved presumption (Mills hydrinos operating 
n only one way) makes it not possible ☺ simply because Mills himself may have 
verlooked another feature of a broader phenomena.
Jones

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Jones Beene]

-Original Message-
From: MarkI-ZeroPoint 

1. If a neutron can disappear into the vacuum, then:
1a. Can a neutron pop INTO this space (spontaneous formation)?

Let me just say this. There have been for a long time - reports of spontaneous 
(anomalous) hydrogen showing up in extreme vacuum conditions. Hydrogen from 
nowhere, essentially. But that phenomenon, if true, has morphed into fringe 
religious bogosity so one hesitates to even mention it. There was an article in 
IE and it has been picked up here, for what it is worth:

http://blog.hasslberger.com/2006/06/hydrogen_from_space_the_aether.html

This is not the same as neutrons from nowhere, except that the neutron has only 
a short half-life, and you expect to see hydrogen in the end. Does that account 
for the hydrogen phenomenon, and if so, where is the decay energy? Does 
trans-dimensional transfer happen isothermally, regardless? (at least from the 
perspective of the host)

That would be the only way it could happen.

Jones

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Harry Veeder]

Since the subject has arisen, it is worth mentioning that the
spontaneous generation of matter happens in steady-state
cosmological theories propounded by Fred Hoyle and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

Harry

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: MarkI-ZeroPoint

 1. If a neutron can disappear into the vacuum, then:
        1a. Can a neutron pop INTO this space (spontaneous formation)?

 Let me just say this. There have been for a long time - reports of 
 spontaneous (anomalous) hydrogen showing up in extreme vacuum conditions. 
 Hydrogen from nowhere, essentially. But that phenomenon, if true, has morphed 
 into fringe religious bogosity so one hesitates to even mention it. There was 
 an article in IE and it has been picked up here, for what it is worth:

 http://blog.hasslberger.com/2006/06/hydrogen_from_space_the_aether.html

 This is not the same as neutrons from nowhere, except that the neutron has 
 only a short half-life, and you expect to see hydrogen in the end. Does that 
 account for the hydrogen phenomenon, and if so, where is the decay energy? 
 Does trans-dimensional transfer happen isothermally, regardless? (at least 
 from the perspective of the host)

 That would be the only way it could happen.

 Jones

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

[Harry Veeder]

I think physical principles should be treated like fine clothes. Keep
them but don't wear them all the time.

Harry


On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:39 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
 Let us not throw away the CoE too fast.  I suggest that an solution will one
 day appear that does not do this.

 Dave


 -Original Message-
 From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Sat, Jun 16, 2012 9:15 pm
 Subject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)

 1. If a neutron can disappear into the vacuum, then:
   1a. Can a neutron pop INTO this space (spontaneous formation)?
 2. For every neutron that exits, does another enter this space (to balance
 things, remember CoE!)?
 3. If either #1 or #1a are possible, and not #2, then CoE gets tossed out
 the
 window!

 Altho, for all practical purposes, CoE would still appear to be intact, BUT,
 if
 we can optimize the popping out of existence within some object, and it
 happens
 often enough, then it would be possible to violate CoE within that object.

 Jones just opened a can of worms... and the feast begins!
 :-)
 -Mark
 _
 From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net]
 Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:29 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Subject: RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons (hydrinos)


 -Original Message-
 From: mix...@bigpond.com

 They don't need to disappear into reciprocal space.

 This isn't about need Robin - it is about explaining results. Most of the
 time, of course, this kind of cooling reaction simply does not happen. Do
 you
 know of any other reports of anomalous cooling?

 Hydrino molecules can quite easily disappear into ordinary space. They can
 simply migrate through the atomic interstices of the container wall into the
 atmosphere.

 Yes, of course ... at least if they are real - then that is probably true.
 But
 in that case there is only excess heat - not anomalous cooling.

 IOW, that will not explain a cooling effect, as you acknowledge, so why
 mention
 it? The Ahern results are beyond any possible chemical effect. The purpose
 of
 the posting was to present a possible rationale involving a new kind of
 fractional hydrogen reaction, where the assumptions are very different. Net
 cooling instead of heating.

 The common denominator seems to be simple - if neutrons can do this
 disappearing
 act, then virtual neutrons (maximum redundancy hydrogen) can possibly do the
 same. In neither case am I claiming it is anything more than a remote
 possibility.

 When I opined that there could be some kind of momentum effect what I
 meant
 was that in certain circumstances the entire sequence from atomic hydrogen
 to
 virtual neutron happens as one unstoppable progression, unlike the Mills'
 hydrino - which is a sequential chain of reactions which occurs in up to 137
 steps.

 After all, this thread is merely the start of a new hypothesis, at this time
 -
 with which to explain new phenomena which previously was beyond explanation.
 Maybe it will not survive more accurate objections, but one cannot
 disqualify it
 easily by suggesting that another unproved presumption (Mills hydrinos
 operating
 in only one way) makes it not possible ☺ simply because Mills himself may
 have
 overlooked another feature of a broader phenomena.

 Jones

[Vo]:Missing Neutrons

[Harry Veeder]

Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?

In a paper recently published in EPJ C¹, researchers hypothesised the
existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of
neutrons observed experimentally. The existence of such mirror matter
had been suggested in various scientific contexts some time ago,
including the search for suitable dark matter candidates.


http://phys.org/news/2012-06-neutrons-parallel-world.html

Re: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons

[Harry Veeder]

What drives such theory making is the need to uphold CoE.
Harry

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
 Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?

 In a paper recently published in EPJ C¹, researchers hypothesised the
 existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of
 neutrons observed experimentally. The existence of such mirror matter
 had been suggested in various scientific contexts some time ago,
 including the search for suitable dark matter candidates.


 http://phys.org/news/2012-06-neutrons-parallel-world.html

RE: [Vo]:Missing Neutrons

[Jones Beene]

Good find - and the implications are a bit convoluted. The curious thing is
that mirror matter neutrons (or deep hydrinos) will explain anomalous heat
loss quite nicely.

As you may remember, Ahern reported that some of his Arata-style samples
demonstrated anomalous heat LOSS (more of the samples show gain than loss,
and only a few showed nothing).

This paper, in fact - could explain anomalous heat loss better than anything
I have seen thus far.

BTW the all of the nanopowder samples which showed thermal loss were made of
nano-titanium embedded in zirconia. All of the nickel and palladium samples
showed gain.

Jones


-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder 

What drives such theory making is the need to uphold CoE.
Harry

 Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?

 In a paper recently published in EPJ C¹, researchers hypothesised the
 existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of
 neutrons observed experimentally. The existence of such mirror matter
 had been suggested in various scientific contexts some time ago,
 including the search for suitable dark matter candidates.


 http://phys.org/news/2012-06-neutrons-parallel-world.html