Re: [Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
On 23/01/2012 6:14 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Shaun, you are in error. I have examined your pictures and like Mary, I do not see the significance of the goop you are referring to. BUT ... For the sake of discussion, I accept your premise that the goop was placed there so that Tout can be higher than it would have been. First point, Jed was not there. Ok so lets move forward on the assumption Rossi had placed the sensor to generate a higher than reality Tout. As the delta T was at best 10 deg C, a bias of 6 or 7 deg C would say there was no excess during the power applied phase. Then the heaters were disconnected and the RFG was engaged. Here I see 2 avenues to apply power during the self sustain mode. Via the RFG leads which could be a high DC voltage with a small AC ripple. This would show up on a AC amp meter as a small current with the DC supplying the secret heating. This job could be split between the Small Blue Box (SBB) AC heater excitation. It could also generate a DC output with a small AC ripple. It amazes me with all the brains in that room and with the future of LENR credibility on the line, NO ONE brought a portable digital oscilloscope and looked at what the RFG and the SBB were ACTUALLY generating. Digital meters are well known to under report current and voltage from complex non sinusoidal wave shapes. But instead of doing proper checking on what was ACTUALLY being fed into the Ecat, they relied on Rossi. Well they got taken for a ride. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
Shaun please note also how far from the heat exchanger was placed the Tin probe. Even before the flow meter! Why ? 2012/1/23 Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com On 23/01/2012 6:14 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Shaun, you are in error. I have examined your pictures and like Mary, I do not see the significance of the goop you are referring to. BUT ... For the sake of discussion, I accept your premise that the goop was placed there so that Tout can be higher than it would have been. First point, Jed was not there. Ok so lets move forward on the assumption Rossi had placed the sensor to generate a higher than reality Tout. As the delta T was at best 10 deg C, a bias of 6 or 7 deg C would say there was no excess during the power applied phase. Then the heaters were disconnected and the RFG was engaged. Here I see 2 avenues to apply power during the self sustain mode. Via the RFG leads which could be a high DC voltage with a small AC ripple. This would show up on a AC amp meter as a small current with the DC supplying the secret heating. This job could be split between the Small Blue Box (SBB) AC heater excitation. It could also generate a DC output with a small AC ripple. It amazes me with all the brains in that room and with the future of LENR credibility on the line, NO ONE brought a portable digital oscilloscope and looked at what the RFG and the SBB were ACTUALLY generating. Digital meters are well known to under report current and voltage from complex non sinusoidal wave shapes. But instead of doing proper checking on what was ACTUALLY being fed into the Ecat, they relied on Rossi. Well they got taken for a ride. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
Shaun sez: Via the RFG leads which could be a high DC voltage with a small AC ripple. This would show up on a AC amp meter as a small current with the DC supplying the secret heating. This job could be split between the Small Blue Box (SBB) AC heater excitation. It could also generate a DC output with a small AC ripple. It amazes me with all the brains in that room and with the future of LENR credibility on the line, NO ONE brought a portable digital oscilloscope and looked at what the RFG and the SBB were ACTUALLY generating. Digital meters are well known to under report current and voltage from complex non sinusoidal wave shapes. But instead of doing proper checking on what was ACTUALLY being fed into the Ecat, they relied on Rossi. Well they got taken for a ride. Sigh... This has been hashed to death before. It's amazing how you can come into this collective at a late stage with guns blazing accusing smart and competent people over something you have absolutely no idea about. Do you think others have not thought of this before? The RFG could not have imparted a power anywhere close to 10Kw. And if the SBB was supplying DC current at all, that power would still have been registered on the AC supply line. 10Kw of power is not something you can hide easily. Please, stop this trolling and blatant accusations. Give us some definite proof of fraud, not your speculations and assumptions masquerading as facts. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
Do you think others have not thought of this before? The RFG could not have imparted a power anywhere close to 10Kw. And if the SBB was supplying DC current at all, that power would still have been registered on the AC supply line. 10Kw of power is not something you can hide easily. What if the AC wall socket itself were rigged to supply the DC with a slight AC ripple? Rob
RE: [Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
Shaun, You do realize that the RFG was not used in the first several E-Cat demos, aren't you? Oh, that's right, how could you??? Since you just swooped in and started barfing your accusations and speculations all over the place before doing your homework! Not unlike Mary, but at least she is a bit more cautious in how she does it so she can maintain at least some modicum of credibility. The issue of high-frequency components not being picked up by certain test instruments is well known by this Forum's members, and has been mentioned lng ago; many members in this forum have considerable expertise with electronics, test equipment and a good grounding in physics. I personally have several pieces of high-end test equipment, including an o'scope that has a 600Mhz bandwidth... you do know what that is, don't you??? Many Vortex members were aware of the issue that hi-freq components could cause lower than actual power measurements long before FP's announcement of Cold Fusion in 1989. Your *suggestion* as to how Rossi might have fed power to the E-Cat, is ONLY a POSSIBILITY. For some reason, your distorted way of thinking IMMEDIATELY DRAWS THE CONCLUSION THAT THAT IS THE ONLY POSSIBILITY, AND THEREFORE MUST BE THE CASE... That is pathological, plain and simple. The only way to convert a possibility into fact is to measure it with the proper instruments... until that is done, it is only ONE possibility out of two or more. The only rational thing to do when faced with the situation we have is to simply wait it out and see what happens... which is pretty much what the consensus was by mid-year. -m -Original Message- From: Shaun Taylor [mailto:shauntaylor...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 12:09 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud On 23/01/2012 6:14 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Shaun, you are in error. I have examined your pictures and like Mary, I do not see the significance of the goop you are referring to. BUT ... For the sake of discussion, I accept your premise that the goop was placed there so that Tout can be higher than it would have been. First point, Jed was not there. Ok so lets move forward on the assumption Rossi had placed the sensor to generate a higher than reality Tout. As the delta T was at best 10 deg C, a bias of 6 or 7 deg C would say there was no excess during the power applied phase. Then the heaters were disconnected and the RFG was engaged. Here I see 2 avenues to apply power during the self sustain mode. Via the RFG leads which could be a high DC voltage with a small AC ripple. This would show up on a AC amp meter as a small current with the DC supplying the secret heating. This job could be split between the Small Blue Box (SBB) AC heater excitation. It could also generate a DC output with a small AC ripple. It amazes me with all the brains in that room and with the future of LENR credibility on the line, NO ONE brought a portable digital oscilloscope and looked at what the RFG and the SBB were ACTUALLY generating. Digital meters are well known to under report current and voltage from complex non sinusoidal wave shapes. But instead of doing proper checking on what was ACTUALLY being fed into the Ecat, they relied on Rossi. Well they got taken for a ride. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
What if the AC wall socket itself were rigged to supply the DC with a slight AC ripple If that were so, the AC voltmeter attached across the outlet would have registered a low value close to zero, since a voltmeter set to measure AC RMS values would not read a DC voltage. Like I said, this has been hashed before and many very smart people attended that test who have thought of this. What makes you think you're the first persons to have thought of this? I sure would like to hear how Shaun would explain the flat Tout temp and this. Jojo
[Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
Rossi speaks: NOT ONLY I CONFIRM THAT I VERIFIED THAT THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN THE EXHAUST STREAM UNDER OPERATING CONDITIONS HAS BEEN MEASURED AND MATCHES THE READING SEEN ON THE TEST THERMOCOUPLES, Ok Mr Rossi, if that is so why didn't you leave the Tout thermocouple in the exhaust water stream? I mean you claim to have put it there to measure the exhaust water stream temperature. Why did you move it to a spot on the solid brass combined hot steam inlet and exhaust water manifold assembly? Despite what you claim, you did it to use the heat leakage from the 110 deg C steam inlet, which which was about 50 mm away through a lot of thick brass, to raise the apparent temperature of the exhaust water so the Ecat appeared to generate excess energy. Mr. Rossi you are busted. Shaun
[Vo]:Rossi lies again to cover his data fraud
Shaun Taylor sez: The goop is where the bead of the thermocouple was placed. There is no other reason for anything like that material to be there other than to provide a good heat exchange between the brass fitting and the thermocouple head. Notice in the other 2 images it has been cleaned off the brass fitting. Not a good idea for it to be there too long as some sharp eyed observers may have questioned why that material was on that brass fitting. Can't have the observers asking awkward questions. Why was the bead placed there? Simple. Doing so would deliver a higher than reality Tout temperature, making the delta T look bigger than it really was and making the Ecat appear as if it was generating more energy than is was consuming. Shaun, you are in error. I have examined your pictures and like Mary, I do not see the significance of the goop you are referring to. BUT ... For the sake of discussion, I accept your premise that the goop was placed there so that Tout can be higher than it would have been. Then, explain to me why the Tout remained a flat line for 4 hours, if there is no active process occuring that is generating heat to keep that temp flat. People is that room, including Jed, verified that there was no input power to the heating element, and yet Tout was flat as a pancake, and even increased slightly. You can not explain how this anomaly could have happened no matter how much of verbal goop you use. Maybe, like Cude, you will claim that there is some heat storing media in there that is storing the heat and releasing it for 4 hours. If that were so, then explain why Tout slowly dropped after the Hydrogen was vented to end the test after 4 hours. If you invented a heat storing media that can be regulated to release heat in a controlled fashion for over 4 hours causing a flat Tout reading and then for some reason stops releasing the heat on cue after the hydrogen is vented; if you know of such material; by all means, apply for a patent for such a material, as that material would be worth millions in everyday practical applications. Like other pseudo-skeptics, you just accept the data that supports your preconcieved notions. You ignore the flat Tout data and you question the integrity and competence of many people much smarter than you who were in fact in that room personally witnessing the test. What makes you think you have come up with a reason that others have not thought of? Don't you think Jed would have forgotten to verify that there was no input power to the heating element? Come on, get real. Jojo
