re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Dave, I think you we are both in agreement with the initial post of Ed's thermal analysis, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg80803.html but it does not mention the difference between the destructive test in open air and the unit in normal operation which is constantly bathed in a heat extracting fluid.. are you modeling this in your SPICE calculation? The thermal circuit in the destructive test only has air cooling to keep the runaway at bay and represents a softer - more fragile target for the waveforms to temporarily exceed while I think the reactor in heavy heat sinking mode would have much higher tolerance for controlled PWM excursions into areas that would be considered runaway if not for the steady drain. Fran [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=vortex-l@eskimo.comq=subject:%22%5BVo %5D%3A+ECAT+Drive+PWM+Issues%22 David Roberson http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=vortex-l@eskimo.comq=from:%22David+Ro berson%22 Fri, 24 May 2013 23:30:52 -0700 http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=vortex-l@eskimo.comq=date:20130524 I was adjusting my spice model of the ECAT when I decided to determine how important it is to keep the device operating within the normally unstable region at all times. Here I refer to the unstable region as that operation range where the ECAT would tend toward over heating unless under control. There is no end to the questions which keep arising as to how heat can be applied in the proper format to keep an unstable device operating under control when it is capable of putting out more heat than required to drive it. And, the ECAT tends to operate best when the COP is equal to 6 which clearly is within this mode. One day this will be accepted. For now, I want to mention that it is important to keep the ECAT operating near the ultimate thermal run away region. If the device temperature is allowed to drop too far before the drive returns then the COP degrades significantly. And, as is somewhat demonstrated by the waveforms shown in the recent report, the length of time that the temperature hesitates at its greatest level is determined by how close http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg80977.html to that ultimate run away temperature the device operates. My test runs demonstrate that the ECAT needs to be operating at a maximum temperature near to its ultimate thermal run away point and that the variation in output temperature needs to be maintained low by timing of the PWM drive. Both of these requirements should be met if the ECAT is to deliver the desired COP of 6 and remain stable. My spice model offers good guidance even though it can only approximate a real device. Dave
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain. The hard part is to keep the ECAT from getting out of control since he is operating on a sharp balance to obtain good COP. I am not modeling any process that occurs beyond the two temperature trips that I described since operation above the second one is destructive. Operation below the first temperature point results in a COP that is too low to be useful. I have included energy loss due to a 4th order radiation process in some of my runs, but so far I find that control issues occur before this has significant effect. I believe as you do that operation with a heat exchange fluid will be easier to control. This also allows Rossi to adjust the flow rate which could be used to modify the thermal resistance factor and thus total loop dynamics. For example, he could raise the temperature at which the core become unstable thereby compensating for different core activities. My model operates upon the average behavior of an ECAT type device. It assumes that the design has been developed by good engineering processes. If the design team allows the system to harbor inconsistent heat transfer such as would occur with too many and too large in size hot spots, then there is no control technique that will work effectively. I suspect that much effort will center around making sure this issue is handled. Dave -Original Message- From: francis froarty...@comcast.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 7:16 am Subject: re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, I think you we are both in agreement with the initial post of Ed’s thermal analysis, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg80803.html but it does not mention the difference between the destructive test in open air and the unit in normal operation which is constantly bathed in a heat extracting fluid.. are you modeling this in your SPICE calculation? The thermal circuit in the destructive test only has air cooling to keep the runaway at bay and represents a softer – more fragile target for the waveforms to temporarily exceed while I think the reactor in heavy heat sinking mode would have much higher tolerance for controlled PWM excursions into areas that would be considered runaway if not for the steady drain. Fran [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues David Roberson Fri, 24 May 2013 23:30:52 -0700 I was adjusting my spice model of the ECAT when I decided to determine how important it is to keep the device operating within the normally unstable region at all times. Here I refer to the unstable region as that operation range where the ECAT would tend toward over heating unless under control. There is no end to the questions which keep arising as to how heat can be applied in the proper format to keep an unstable device operating under control when it is capable of putting out
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes? For if the device can indeed be continuously operated at zero (or indeed negative) input power, then one has unambiguously demonstrated the production of something from nothing, and there's no getting away from that. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain. The hard part is to keep the ECAT from getting out of control since he is operating on a sharp balance to obtain good COP. I am not modeling any process that occurs beyond the two temperature trips that I described since operation above the second one is destructive. Operation below the first temperature point results in a COP that is too low to be useful. I have included energy loss due to a 4th order radiation process in some of my runs, but so far I find that control issues occur before this has significant effect. I believe as you do that operation with a heat exchange fluid will be easier to control. This also allows Rossi to adjust the flow rate which could be used to modify the thermal resistance factor and thus total loop dynamics. For example, he could raise the temperature at which the core become unstable thereby compensating for different core activities. My model operates upon the average behavior of an ECAT type device. It assumes that the design has been developed by good engineering processes. If the design team allows the system to harbor inconsistent heat transfer such as would occur with too many and too large in size hot spots, then there is no control technique that will work effectively. I suspect that much effort will center around making sure this issue is handled. Dave -Original Message- From: francis froarty...@comcast.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 7:16 am Subject: re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, I think you we are both in agreement with the initial post of Ed’s thermal analysis, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg80803.html but it does not mention the difference between the destructive test in open air and the unit in normal operation which is constantly bathed in a heat extracting fluid.. are you modeling this in your SPICE calculation? The thermal circuit in the destructive test only has air cooling to keep the runaway at bay and represents a softer – more fragile target for the waveforms to temporarily exceed while I think the reactor in heavy heat sinking mode would have much
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain. The hard part is to keep the ECAT from getting out of control since he is operating on a sharp balance to obtain good COP. I am not modeling any process that occurs beyond the two temperature trips that I described since operation above the second one is destructive. Operation below the first temperature point results in a COP that is too low to be useful. I have included energy loss due to a 4th order radiation process in some of my runs, but so far I find that control issues occur before this has significant effect. I believe as you do that operation with a heat exchange fluid will be easier to control. This also allows Rossi to adjust the flow rate which could be used to modify the thermal resistance factor and thus total loop dynamics. For example, he could raise the temperature at which the core become unstable thereby compensating for different core activities. My model operates upon the average behavior of an ECAT type device. It assumes that the design has been developed by good engineering processes. If the design team allows the system to harbor inconsistent heat transfer such as would occur with too many and too large in size hot spots, then there is no control technique that will work effectively. I suspect that much effort will center around making sure this issue is handled. Dave -Original Message- From: francis froarty...@comcast.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 7:16 am Subject: re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, I think you we are both in agreement with the initial post of Ed’s thermal analysis, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg80803.html but it does not mention the difference between the destructive test in open air and the unit in normal operation which is constantly bathed in a heat extracting fluid.. are you modeling this in your SPICE calculation? The thermal circuit in the destructive test only has air cooling to keep the runaway at bay and represents a softer – more fragile target for the waveforms to temporarily exceed while I think the reactor in heavy heat sinking mode would have much higher tolerance for controlled PWM excursions into areas that would be considered runaway if not for the steady drain. Fran [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues David Roberson Fri, 24 May 2013 23
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
I like your approach, Dave. To fit reality, you need to take into account two major variables. These are the diffusion rate and the solubility of H in the Ni. Both determine the rate at which H can get to the NAE where it enters into a nuclear reaction. The diffusion rate increases with temperature while the concentration of H decreases. At some high temperature these two competing effects will produce a stable condition. Above this stable temperature, increased temperature will reduce the power output while below the stable temperature, increased temperature will increase the power. This stable condition apparently occurs at a very high temperature when Ni is used, but at a much lower temperature when Pd is the metal. This fact makes Ni more useful as a source of energy than Pd. The best design would be based on achieving this stable temperature without a need for control. Rossi has apparently not mastered this ability. The concentration of H in the Ni can be increased by increasing the H activity in the gas. This can be done by either increasing pressure or by bombarding the Ni with energetic H+ ions. This additional variable should be added to your model because this method can greatly increase the power and allow for control without using temperature as the controlling variable. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Andrew wrote: Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain. The hard part is to keep the ECAT from getting out of control since he is operating on a sharp balance to obtain good COP. I am not modeling any process that occurs beyond the two temperature trips that I described since operation above the second one is destructive. Operation below the first temperature point results in a COP that is too low to be useful. I have included energy loss due to a 4th order radiation process in some of my runs, but so far I find that control issues occur before this has significant effect. I believe as you do that operation with a heat exchange fluid will be easier to control. This also allows Rossi to adjust the flow rate which could be used to modify the thermal resistance factor and thus total loop dynamics. For example, he could raise the temperature at which the core become unstable thereby compensating for different core activities. My model operates upon
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Andrew, My model demonstrates that a periodic waveform is required in order to keep the ECAT within stable bounds and at a good COP. If the drive is totally eliminated then there are two states that can exist. One is for the device to cool off and reach room temperature and the other is for it to continue rising in temperature until it can no longer be controlled by the drive waveform. You can use the final drive state to determine which direction the ECAT ultimately heads. That is, you can give the ECAT a push toward one of those two conditions. The positive feedback mechanism takes over after that final push and carries the order to completion. Of course, if someone applies super cooling tubes to extract the excess heat then the thermal resistance will be reduced. Enough of this type of cooling could reverse the process. If sufficient reduction in thermal resistance is achieved, the positive feedback instability can be defeated. If the loop gain becomes less than unity the device would begin to cool toward room temperature. It is a complicated system with many subtle points to consider. There may exist some situations where negative feedback occurs, but this is speculative. I am fairly confident that a limiting mechanism must exist where the temperature can become no higher. As this temperature is approached the positive feedback loop gain must become less than unity. When the gain is reduced below unity stable operation begins and a real SSM occurs. I suspect that any attempt to gain control by drive alone is hopeless at these temperatures and the only way possible to cool the device would be to flush it with coolant. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes? For if the device can indeed be continuously operated at zero (or indeed negative) input power, then one has unambiguously demonstrated the production of something from nothing, and there's no getting away from that. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment.Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain. The hard part is to keep the ECAT from getting out of control since he is operating on a sharp balance to obtain good COP. I am not modeling any process that occurs beyond the two temperature trips that I
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Dave, You therefore answer in the affirmative - i.e. it looks possible in principle to operate with sporadic negative power input (cooling) and at zero input power, once the reaction set point has been established. This is exactly what is required to nail down the existence of the effect. No shenanigans with input power are then possible, and there's only one conclusion possible - that, at steady-state, energy is being generated when no energy is being input. This is crucial in my view for universal acceptance of the vailidity of the effect - whatever the details of that effect might be. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Andrew, My model demonstrates that a periodic waveform is required in order to keep the ECAT within stable bounds and at a good COP. If the drive is totally eliminated then there are two states that can exist. One is for the device to cool off and reach room temperature and the other is for it to continue rising in temperature until it can no longer be controlled by the drive waveform. You can use the final drive state to determine which direction the ECAT ultimately heads. That is, you can give the ECAT a push toward one of those two conditions. The positive feedback mechanism takes over after that final push and carries the order to completion. Of course, if someone applies super cooling tubes to extract the excess heat then the thermal resistance will be reduced. Enough of this type of cooling could reverse the process. If sufficient reduction in thermal resistance is achieved, the positive feedback instability can be defeated. If the loop gain becomes less than unity the device would begin to cool toward room temperature. It is a complicated system with many subtle points to consider. There may exist some situations where negative feedback occurs, but this is speculative. I am fairly confident that a limiting mechanism must exist where the temperature can become no higher. As this temperature is approached the positive feedback loop gain must become less than unity. When the gain is reduced below unity stable operation begins and a real SSM occurs. I suspect that any attempt to gain control by drive alone is hopeless at these temperatures and the only way possible to cool the device would be to flush it with coolant. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes? For if the device can indeed be continuously operated at zero (or indeed negative) input power, then one has unambiguously demonstrated the production of something from nothing, and there's no getting away from that. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
I would like very much to include this type of behavior into my model. Presently, the model operates upon a curve which relates the heat generated by the core to the temperature that the core exhibits. The slope of that curve interacts with the thermal resistance surrounding the core to establish a positive feedback loop. Whenever the loop gain exceeds one, unstable operation can occur which is then used to enhance the COP. It is apparent that there must be a physical limiting process which I suspect is what you are referring to in your response. I do not know what parameters to use to model that at the moment and it would be interesting to get a handle upon any time domain behavior that might result when they operate. Various delays which might be introduced, particularly if they occur within the region of normal operation for Rossi, might help to explain why he is having so much difficulty with stability. My model demonstrates that achieving stable operation with high COP is not simple under ideal conditions. Any inputs that you may have would be greatly appreciated. Dave -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 1:12 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues I like your approach, Dave. To fit reality, you need to take into account two major variables. These are the diffusion rate and the solubility of H in the Ni. Both determine the rate at which H can get to the NAE where it enters into a nuclear reaction. The diffusion rate increases with temperature while the concentration of H decreases. At some high temperature these two competing effects will produce a stable condition. Above this stable temperature, increased temperature will reduce the power output while below the stable temperature, increased temperature will increase the power. This stable condition apparently occurs at a very high temperature when Ni is used, but at a much lower temperature when Pd is the metal. This fact makes Ni more useful as a source of energy than Pd. The best design would be based on achieving this stable temperature without a need for control. Rossi has apparently not mastered this ability. The concentration of H in the Ni can be increased by increasing the H activity in the gas. This can be done by either increasing pressure or by bombarding the Ni with energetic H+ ions. This additional variable should be added to your model because this method can greatly increase the power and allow for control without using temperature as the controlling variable. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Andrew wrote: Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
I should add that I don't believe that currently we have any hard evidence for the existence of thermal runaway occurring spontaneously. The (in)famous photo of the device in meltdown was taken under the condition of continuous supply of substantial input power. For all we know, we are looking at a photo of a resistor overheating. Andrew - Original Message - From: Andrew To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, You therefore answer in the affirmative - i.e. it looks possible in principle to operate with sporadic negative power input (cooling) and at zero input power, once the reaction set point has been established. This is exactly what is required to nail down the existence of the effect. No shenanigans with input power are then possible, and there's only one conclusion possible - that, at steady-state, energy is being generated when no energy is being input. This is crucial in my view for universal acceptance of the vailidity of the effect - whatever the details of that effect might be. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Andrew, My model demonstrates that a periodic waveform is required in order to keep the ECAT within stable bounds and at a good COP. If the drive is totally eliminated then there are two states that can exist. One is for the device to cool off and reach room temperature and the other is for it to continue rising in temperature until it can no longer be controlled by the drive waveform. You can use the final drive state to determine which direction the ECAT ultimately heads. That is, you can give the ECAT a push toward one of those two conditions. The positive feedback mechanism takes over after that final push and carries the order to completion. Of course, if someone applies super cooling tubes to extract the excess heat then the thermal resistance will be reduced. Enough of this type of cooling could reverse the process. If sufficient reduction in thermal resistance is achieved, the positive feedback instability can be defeated. If the loop gain becomes less than unity the device would begin to cool toward room temperature. It is a complicated system with many subtle points to consider. There may exist some situations where negative feedback occurs, but this is speculative. I am fairly confident that a limiting mechanism must exist where the temperature can become no higher. As this temperature is approached the positive feedback loop gain must become less than unity. When the gain is reduced below unity stable operation begins and a real SSM occurs. I suspect that any attempt to gain control by drive alone is hopeless at these temperatures and the only way possible to cool the device would be to flush it with coolant. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes? For if the device can indeed be continuously operated at zero (or indeed negative) input power, then one has unambiguously demonstrated the production of something from nothing, and there's no getting away from that. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Andrew, Remember that this is the behavior of a model. Also, if operation is allowed at a very elevated temperature, the core might fail in a short time frame which appears to be what happened in the first of the three tests that were conducted. I suspect that fluid flow might be able to rescue the over heating core, but it is not clear that this will be fast enough to prevent damage to it. Internal hot spots might make operation in this region fleeting. I do believe that initial heating can start the device on its way to the condition you are considering but it will eventually reach a point where it can no longer be controlled by drive waveform modification. Hit it with serious cooling and if lucky, you may be able to keep it from self destructing long enough to demonstrate the SSM mode to your satisfaction. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, You therefore answer in the affirmative - i.e. it looks possible in principle to operate with sporadic negative power input (cooling) and at zero input power, once the reaction set point has been established. This is exactly what is required to nail down the existence of the effect. No shenanigans with input power are then possible, and there's only one conclusion possible - that, at steady-state, energy is being generated when no energy is being input. This is crucial in my view for universal acceptance of the vailidity of the effect - whatever the details of that effect might be. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Andrew, My model demonstrates that a periodic waveform is required in order to keep the ECAT within stable bounds and at a good COP. If the drive is totally eliminated then there are two states that can exist. One is for the device to cool off and reach room temperature and the other is for it to continue rising in temperature until it can no longer be controlled by the drive waveform. You can use the final drive state to determine which direction the ECAT ultimately heads. That is, you can give the ECAT a push toward one of those two conditions. The positive feedback mechanism takes over after that final push and carries the order to completion. Of course, if someone applies super cooling tubes to extract the excess heat then the thermal resistance will be reduced. Enough of this type of cooling could reverse the process. If sufficient reduction in thermal resistance is achieved, the positive feedback instability can be defeated.If the loop gain becomes less than unity the device would begin to cool toward room temperature. It is a complicated system with many subtle points to consider. There may exist some situations where negative feedback occurs, but this is speculative. I am fairly confident that a limiting mechanism must exist where the temperature can become no higher. As this temperature is approached the positive feedback loop gain must become less than unity.When the gain is reduced below unity stable operation begins and a real SSM occurs. I suspect that any attempt to gain control by drive alone is hopeless at these temperatures and the only way possible to cool the device would be to flush it with coolant. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes? For if the device can indeed be continuously operated at zero (or indeed negative) input power, then one has unambiguously demonstrated the production of something from nothing, and there's no getting away from that. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
In the DGT documentation, they state that the DGT reaction can produce a COP of 22 to 1. This can be done because they use electronic stimulation of the reaction instead a the thermal stimulation. How can this be possible under your current theoretical assumptions? Because this high COP does not fit in to your current thinking, then it must be untrue, correct? If you concede that electronic stimulation is a possibility, how can this factoid be fitted into your theories? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: I like your approach, Dave. To fit reality, you need to take into account two major variables. These are the diffusion rate and the solubility of H in the Ni. Both determine the rate at which H can get to the NAE where it enters into a nuclear reaction. The diffusion rate increases with temperature while the concentration of H decreases. At some high temperature these two competing effects will produce a stable condition. Above this stable temperature, increased temperature will reduce the power output while below the stable temperature, increased temperature will increase the power. This stable condition apparently occurs at a very high temperature when Ni is used, but at a much lower temperature when Pd is the metal. This fact makes Ni more useful as a source of energy than Pd. The best design would be based on achieving this stable temperature without a need for control. Rossi has apparently not mastered this ability. The concentration of H in the Ni can be increased by increasing the H activity in the gas. This can be done by either increasing pressure or by bombarding the Ni with energetic H+ ions. This additional variable should be added to your model because this method can greatly increase the power and allow for control without using temperature as the controlling variable. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Andrew wrote: Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - *From:* David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain. The hard part is to keep the ECAT from getting out of control since he is operating on a sharp balance to obtain good COP. I am not modeling any process that occurs beyond the two temperature trips that I described since operation above the second one is destructive. Operation below the first temperature point results in a COP that is too low to be useful. I have included energy loss due
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
What you say would only be true provided that the device were not generating most of the heat that lead to the self destruction. It is too bad that they did not remove the drive and let it prove that it can run away which would have been quite convincing to most skeptics. Or would it have been? I suspect that the results would have been much the same in either case. The device was out of control. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues I should add that I don't believe that currently we have any hard evidence for the existence of thermal runaway occurring spontaneously. The (in)famous photo of the device in meltdown was taken under the condition of continuous supply of substantial input power. For all we know, we are looking at a photo of a resistor overheating. Andrew - Original Message - From: Andrew To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, You therefore answer in the affirmative - i.e. it looks possible in principle to operate with sporadic negative power input (cooling) and at zero input power, once the reaction set point has been established. This is exactly what is required to nail down the existence of the effect. No shenanigans with input power are then possible, and there's only one conclusion possible - that, at steady-state, energy is being generated when no energy is being input. This is crucial in my view for universal acceptance of the vailidity of the effect - whatever the details of that effect might be. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Andrew, My model demonstrates that a periodic waveform is required in order to keep the ECAT within stable bounds and at a good COP. If the drive is totally eliminated then there are two states that can exist. One is for the device to cool off and reach room temperature and the other is for it to continue rising in temperature until it can no longer be controlled by the drive waveform. You can use the final drive state to determine which direction the ECAT ultimately heads. That is, you can give the ECAT a push toward one of those two conditions. The positive feedback mechanism takes over after that final push and carries the order to completion. Of course, if someone applies super cooling tubes to extract the excess heat then the thermal resistance will be reduced. Enough of this type of cooling could reverse the process. If sufficient reduction in thermal resistance is achieved, the positive feedback instability can be defeated. If the loop gain becomes less than unity the device would begin to cool toward room temperature. It is a complicated system with many subtle points to consider. There may exist some situations where negative feedback occurs, but this is speculative. I am fairly confident that a limiting mechanism must exist where the temperature can become no higher. As this temperature is approached the positive feedback loop gain must become less than unity. When the gain is reduced below unity stable operation begins and a real SSM occurs. I suspect that any attempt to gain control by drive alone is hopeless at these temperatures and the only way possible to cool the device would be to flush it with coolant. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes? For if the device can indeed be continuously operated at zero (or indeed negative) input power, then one has unambiguously demonstrated the production of something from nothing, and there's no getting away from that. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends
RE: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Andrew: I believe there is ample evidence of thermal runaway from competent scientists, NOT Rossi. Jed and Ed can give you specifics, but one example might be what happened in FPs lab at Univ of Utah… this was AFTER power was reduced or shut off for the night, and the event caused a boil-off, the glass container/beaker breaking and a large (12”?) diameter hole being melted thru the laboratory tabletop, and even a crater in the concrete floor… Jed, care to point Andrew at a few specific examples, other than Rossi! -Mark From: Andrew [mailto:andrew...@att.net] Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:51 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues I should add that I don't believe that currently we have any hard evidence for the existence of thermal runaway occurring spontaneously. The (in)famous photo of the device in meltdown was taken under the condition of continuous supply of substantial input power. For all we know, we are looking at a photo of a resistor overheating. Andrew - Original Message - From: Andrew mailto:andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, You therefore answer in the affirmative - i.e. it looks possible in principle to operate with sporadic negative power input (cooling) and at zero input power, once the reaction set point has been established. This is exactly what is required to nail down the existence of the effect. No shenanigans with input power are then possible, and there's only one conclusion possible - that, at steady-state, energy is being generated when no energy is being input. This is crucial in my view for universal acceptance of the vailidity of the effect - whatever the details of that effect might be. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson mailto:dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Andrew, My model demonstrates that a periodic waveform is required in order to keep the ECAT within stable bounds and at a good COP. If the drive is totally eliminated then there are two states that can exist. One is for the device to cool off and reach room temperature and the other is for it to continue rising in temperature until it can no longer be controlled by the drive waveform. You can use the final drive state to determine which direction the ECAT ultimately heads. That is, you can give the ECAT a push toward one of those two conditions. The positive feedback mechanism takes over after that final push and carries the order to completion. Of course, if someone applies super cooling tubes to extract the excess heat then the thermal resistance will be reduced. Enough of this type of cooling could reverse the process. If sufficient reduction in thermal resistance is achieved, the positive feedback instability can be defeated. If the loop gain becomes less than unity the device would begin to cool toward room temperature. It is a complicated system with many subtle points to consider. There may exist some situations where negative feedback occurs, but this is speculative. I am fairly confident that a limiting mechanism must exist where the temperature can become no higher. As this temperature is approached the positive feedback loop gain must become less than unity. When the gain is reduced below unity stable operation begins and a real SSM occurs. I suspect that any attempt to gain control by drive alone is hopeless at these temperatures and the only way possible to cool the device would be to flush it with coolant. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes? For if the device can indeed be continuously operated at zero (or indeed negative) input power, then one has unambiguously demonstrated the production of something from nothing, and there's no getting away from that. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson mailto:dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Axil, you obviously did not read or do not understand what I said. Please read the paragraph in bold again. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Axil Axil wrote: In the DGT documentation, they state that the DGT reaction can produce a COP of 22 to 1. This can be done because they use electronic stimulation of the reaction instead a the thermal stimulation. How can this be possible under your current theoretical assumptions? Because this high COP does not fit in to your current thinking, then it must be untrue, correct? If you concede that electronic stimulation is a possibility, how can this factoid be fitted into your theories? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: I like your approach, Dave. To fit reality, you need to take into account two major variables. These are the diffusion rate and the solubility of H in the Ni. Both determine the rate at which H can get to the NAE where it enters into a nuclear reaction. The diffusion rate increases with temperature while the concentration of H decreases. At some high temperature these two competing effects will produce a stable condition. Above this stable temperature, increased temperature will reduce the power output while below the stable temperature, increased temperature will increase the power. This stable condition apparently occurs at a very high temperature when Ni is used, but at a much lower temperature when Pd is the metal. This fact makes Ni more useful as a source of energy than Pd. The best design would be based on achieving this stable temperature without a need for control. Rossi has apparently not mastered this ability. The concentration of H in the Ni can be increased by increasing the H activity in the gas. This can be done by either increasing pressure or by bombarding the Ni with energetic H+ ions. This additional variable should be added to your model because this method can greatly increase the power and allow for control without using temperature as the controlling variable. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Andrew wrote: Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain. The hard part is to keep the ECAT from getting out of control since he is operating on a sharp balance to obtain good COP. I am not modeling any process that occurs beyond the two temperature
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
I feel bad that I missed that one, Ed. Please excuse me. So Rossi can solve all his problems by adding some spark plugs to his design as has DGT? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Axil, you obviously did not read or do not understand what I said. Please read the paragraph in bold again. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Axil Axil wrote: In the DGT documentation, they state that the DGT reaction can produce a COP of 22 to 1. This can be done because they use electronic stimulation of the reaction instead a the thermal stimulation. How can this be possible under your current theoretical assumptions? Because this high COP does not fit in to your current thinking, then it must be untrue, correct? If you concede that electronic stimulation is a possibility, how can this factoid be fitted into your theories? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: I like your approach, Dave. To fit reality, you need to take into account two major variables. These are the diffusion rate and the solubility of H in the Ni. Both determine the rate at which H can get to the NAE where it enters into a nuclear reaction. The diffusion rate increases with temperature while the concentration of H decreases. At some high temperature these two competing effects will produce a stable condition. Above this stable temperature, increased temperature will reduce the power output while below the stable temperature, increased temperature will increase the power. This stable condition apparently occurs at a very high temperature when Ni is used, but at a much lower temperature when Pd is the metal. This fact makes Ni more useful as a source of energy than Pd. The best design would be based on achieving this stable temperature without a need for control. Rossi has apparently not mastered this ability. *The concentration of H in the Ni can be increased by increasing the H activity in the gas. This can be done by either increasing pressure or by bombarding the Ni with energetic H+ ions. This additional variable should be added to your model because this method can greatly increase the power and allow for control without using temperature as the controlling variable. * Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Andrew wrote: Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - *From:* David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred to as a negative resistance component. Rossi must be relying upon the energy generated in this mode for his large gain
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Mark - That's fine; my memory of the sci.physics.fusion conversation and of lab photo showing the PF meltdown is fairly intact. It's a shame, though, that one has to reach back to 1989, almost a quarter century ago, to pull out such an example. What's required IMHO is the demonstration of steady state heat generation (preferably controlled) when there's zero input power. If there's input power, sceptics will point to an input fraud. Andrew - Original Message - From: MarkI-ZeroPoint To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Andrew: I believe there is ample evidence of thermal runaway from competent scientists, NOT Rossi. Jed and Ed can give you specifics, but one example might be what happened in FPs lab at Univ of Utah… this was AFTER power was reduced or shut off for the night, and the event caused a boil-off, the glass container/beaker breaking and a large (12”?) diameter hole being melted thru the laboratory tabletop, and even a crater in the concrete floor… Jed, care to point Andrew at a few specific examples, other than Rossi! -Mark From: Andrew [mailto:andrew...@att.net] Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:51 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues I should add that I don't believe that currently we have any hard evidence for the existence of thermal runaway occurring spontaneously. The (in)famous photo of the device in meltdown was taken under the condition of continuous supply of substantial input power. For all we know, we are looking at a photo of a resistor overheating. Andrew - Original Message - From: Andrew To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, You therefore answer in the affirmative - i.e. it looks possible in principle to operate with sporadic negative power input (cooling) and at zero input power, once the reaction set point has been established. This is exactly what is required to nail down the existence of the effect. No shenanigans with input power are then possible, and there's only one conclusion possible - that, at steady-state, energy is being generated when no energy is being input. This is crucial in my view for universal acceptance of the vailidity of the effect - whatever the details of that effect might be. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Andrew, My model demonstrates that a periodic waveform is required in order to keep the ECAT within stable bounds and at a good COP. If the drive is totally eliminated then there are two states that can exist. One is for the device to cool off and reach room temperature and the other is for it to continue rising in temperature until it can no longer be controlled by the drive waveform. You can use the final drive state to determine which direction the ECAT ultimately heads. That is, you can give the ECAT a push toward one of those two conditions. The positive feedback mechanism takes over after that final push and carries the order to completion. Of course, if someone applies super cooling tubes to extract the excess heat then the thermal resistance will be reduced. Enough of this type of cooling could reverse the process. If sufficient reduction in thermal resistance is achieved, the positive feedback instability can be defeated. If the loop gain becomes less than unity the device would begin to cool toward room temperature. It is a complicated system with many subtle points to consider. There may exist some situations where negative feedback occurs, but this is speculative. I am fairly confident that a limiting mechanism must exist where the temperature can become no higher. As this temperature is approached the positive feedback loop gain must become less than unity. When the gain is reduced below unity stable operation begins and a real SSM occurs. I suspect that any attempt to gain control by drive alone is hopeless at these temperatures and the only way possible to cool the device would be to flush it with coolant. Dave -Original Message- From: Andrew andrew...@att.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Dave, Does this model allow a stable energy production regime to exist when, after initiation via initial heating has begun, the device can be run at zero input power, and regulation to prevent runaway is achieved by the application of sporadic cooling via (say) cooling tubes
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
I have an idea that Ni/H LENR reaction can be controlled electronically by stimulating or retarding it by the character of the spark that drives the LENR reaction. A certain spark character will increase the power of the reaction and another spark type might retard the reaction. Such a real time adjustable spark type might provide a continuum of control with a fine granularity level from one spark discharge to the next. . On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: I feel bad that I missed that one, Ed. Please excuse me. So Rossi can solve all his problems by adding some spark plugs to his design as has DGT? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Axil, you obviously did not read or do not understand what I said. Please read the paragraph in bold again. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Axil Axil wrote: In the DGT documentation, they state that the DGT reaction can produce a COP of 22 to 1. This can be done because they use electronic stimulation of the reaction instead a the thermal stimulation. How can this be possible under your current theoretical assumptions? Because this high COP does not fit in to your current thinking, then it must be untrue, correct? If you concede that electronic stimulation is a possibility, how can this factoid be fitted into your theories? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: I like your approach, Dave. To fit reality, you need to take into account two major variables. These are the diffusion rate and the solubility of H in the Ni. Both determine the rate at which H can get to the NAE where it enters into a nuclear reaction. The diffusion rate increases with temperature while the concentration of H decreases. At some high temperature these two competing effects will produce a stable condition. Above this stable temperature, increased temperature will reduce the power output while below the stable temperature, increased temperature will increase the power. This stable condition apparently occurs at a very high temperature when Ni is used, but at a much lower temperature when Pd is the metal. This fact makes Ni more useful as a source of energy than Pd. The best design would be based on achieving this stable temperature without a need for control. Rossi has apparently not mastered this ability. *The concentration of H in the Ni can be increased by increasing the H activity in the gas. This can be done by either increasing pressure or by bombarding the Ni with energetic H+ ions. This additional variable should be added to your model because this method can greatly increase the power and allow for control without using temperature as the controlling variable. * Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Andrew wrote: Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - *From:* David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues
Yes, that is the idea. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Axil Axil wrote: I feel bad that I missed that one, Ed. Please excuse me. So Rossi can solve all his problems by adding some spark plugs to his design as has DGT? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Axil, you obviously did not read or do not understand what I said. Please read the paragraph in bold again. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Axil Axil wrote: In the DGT documentation, they state that the DGT reaction can produce a COP of 22 to 1. This can be done because they use electronic stimulation of the reaction instead a the thermal stimulation. How can this be possible under your current theoretical assumptions? Because this high COP does not fit in to your current thinking, then it must be untrue, correct? If you concede that electronic stimulation is a possibility, how can this factoid be fitted into your theories? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: I like your approach, Dave. To fit reality, you need to take into account two major variables. These are the diffusion rate and the solubility of H in the Ni. Both determine the rate at which H can get to the NAE where it enters into a nuclear reaction. The diffusion rate increases with temperature while the concentration of H decreases. At some high temperature these two competing effects will produce a stable condition. Above this stable temperature, increased temperature will reduce the power output while below the stable temperature, increased temperature will increase the power. This stable condition apparently occurs at a very high temperature when Ni is used, but at a much lower temperature when Pd is the metal. This fact makes Ni more useful as a source of energy than Pd. The best design would be based on achieving this stable temperature without a need for control. Rossi has apparently not mastered this ability. The concentration of H in the Ni can be increased by increasing the H activity in the gas. This can be done by either increasing pressure or by bombarding the Ni with energetic H+ ions. This additional variable should be added to your model because this method can greatly increase the power and allow for control without using temperature as the controlling variable. Ed Storms On May 25, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Andrew wrote: Dave, It seems that your model of heat conductivity leads to a system equation that's a linear first order differential equation, if I'm not mistaken. That's a tractable system to deal with from a simulation and control point of view, and as such lends itself to numerical optimisation techniques. Andrew - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Drive PWM Issues Fran, my model takes into account the rate of heat transfer out of the device by using a parameter that simulates a thermal positive feedback loop. And, as you suggest this depends greatly upon the rate of heat generation with temperature and the thermal resistance that it delivers that heat into. Another way to think of this effect is to consider what would happen to a block of active material which is surrounded by a perfect heat conductor. In this special case, any additional heat that is generated is immediately absorbed by the conductor and can not raise the temperature of the block. This would be a stable condition and the COP would be low. Now, if you modify the surrounding heat conductor by increasing its thermal resistance then any newly generated heat from within the block would result in an increase in its internal temperature in a positive feedback manner. The resistance can be increased until it reaches a point such that a tiny incremental input of heat to the block results in a temperature increase of the block that causes additional heat generation slightly larger than the initial increment. Rossi appears to operate above this resistance point when his device has the desired performance. That was a lot of words and I suspect is not clearly written. The meat of the description is that there will be a temperature that depends upon the heat sinking where the device becomes unstable and begins to proceed toward melting. My model suggests that this is the temperature above which Rossi should operate his device to achieve good COP. The model further indicates that you can maintain control of the device while operating above this point as long as you reverse the process before a second temperature trip point is reached that leads to run away. It is important to realize that operation within this region is unstable unless a drive waveform is applied with the proper characteristics. In the radio world this type of device would be referred
