Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I should have zoomed in on voltage, current and R/R0 by turning off the temperature traces in the graph, but the comment below is pretty close. Between 4PM and (almost) midnight PST, Hot wire current varied by less than 10 milliamps (1.712 - 1.722 amps) Hot wire voltage varied by less than 20 millivolts (27.99 - 28.01 volts) R/R0 varied by less than 0.005 ohm. I am looking at 1 minute averages. This is very solid. Jeff On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Jeff Berkowitz pdx...@gmail.com wrote: I looked at the voltage, current, and R/R0 values over various periods and they all look completely flat to me. I don't see any evidence of erratic power supply behavior. I'm not so sure about the correlation with T_ambient either. If you zoom to the 14:00 - 14:50 period the ambient temp drops slightly while the P_Xs rises for many minutes. There are other periods like this too. Jeff On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote: I wrote: Re almost hourly fluctuations in T_Ambient -- the HVAC system kicking in periodically, maybe? Also, do any of the electronics folks here know what the effect might be on the instrumentation providing us with a measure for P_in if the external power supply were erratic? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Note thate ENEA with PdD proved the strong importance of crystalographic structure. One kind cause no heat, the other succed at 60%, and mix of two give mixed results... http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=54t=674 It seems that DGT discuss of that, increasing the number of surface sites with less dense cristal... note also that article from AIP http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=44t=758p=2769#p2769 2012/12/13 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Defkalion actually alters the crystalline structure. Cracks do not appear to be the issue in their reaction. They have found a secret in altering the crystal structure to increase the reaction. I'll bet that the reactions occur at the surface still. Note that Defkalion uses nickel foam, not powder. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Why is it not an issue? [m] On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
RE: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
The frequency of T° ambient and P_Xs are the same (Around 50 minutes). Is ir a coincidence? Arnaud On 2012-12-13 03:29, Craig wrote: This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here: http://data.hugnetlab.com/ to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Whatever this is, it didn't happen with the previous overnight run with power applied to the inert wire (and the active wire partially loaded, in hydrogen atmosphere). This is a user-submitted image from the MFMP blog showing it: http://i.imgur.com/bB383.png (note that Power (Red) actually shows W instead of bar) From 2012-12-12 00:00 to about 10:00, external glass temperature (under 50W of indirect heating) didn't seem to fluctuate very much with ambient temperature. However with direct heating (48W) it does quite much. The main difference between those two runs is that the one with indirect heating had a starting hydrogen pressure of 2 bar (which increase with heat, of course), while the latter ones started at 1 bar, probably offering less thermal inertia (but still not explaining how glass temperature variations can be larger than ambient ones, assuming that these are the ones which drive them). Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I think that there is a strong correlation between the ambient and the assumed power output. Dave -Original Message- From: Arnaud Kodeck arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 13, 2012 4:41 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP The frequency of T° ambient and P_Xs are the same (Around 50 minutes). Is ir a coincidence? Arnaud On 2012-12-13 03:29, Craig wrote: This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here: http://data.hugnetlab.com/ to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Whatever this is, it didn't happen with the previous overnight run with power applied to the inert wire (and the active wire partially loaded, in hydrogen atmosphere). This is a user-submitted image from the MFMP blog showing it: http://i.imgur.com/bB383.png (note that Power (Red) actually shows W instead of bar) From 2012-12-12 00:00 to about 10:00, external glass temperature (under 50W of indirect heating) didn't seem to fluctuate very much with ambient temperature. However with direct heating (48W) it does quite much. The main difference between those two runs is that the one with indirect heating had a starting hydrogen pressure of 2 bar (which increase with heat, of course), while the latter ones started at 1 bar, probably offering less thermal inertia (but still not explaining how glass temperature variations can be larger than ambient ones, assuming that these are the ones which drive them). Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Here's a 33 minute period from this morning. To me they look kind of inverted - one goes up when the other goes down. At least in this sample. The 50-minute cycles may be there but have to be confirmed by the math ... the mind is sometimes too good at finding patterns. Jeff On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 7:00 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I think that there is a strong correlation between the ambient and the assumed power output. Dave -Original Message- From: Arnaud Kodeck arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 13, 2012 4:41 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP The frequency of T° ambient and P_Xs are the same (Around 50 minutes). Is ir a coincidence? Arnaud On 2012-12-13 03:29, Craig wrote: This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here: http://data.hugnetlab.com/ to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Whatever this is, it didn't happen with the previous overnight run with power applied to the inert wire (and the active wire partially loaded, in hydrogen atmosphere). This is a user-submitted image from the MFMP blog showing it: http://i.imgur.com/bB383.png (note that Power (Red) actually shows W instead of bar) From 2012-12-12 00:00 to about 10:00, external glass temperature (under 50W of indirect heating) didn't seem to fluctuate very much with ambient temperature. However with direct heating (48W) it does quite much. The main difference between those two runs is that the one with indirect heating had a starting hydrogen pressure of 2 bar (which increase with heat, of course), while the latter ones started at 1 bar, probably offering less thermal inertia (but still not explaining how glass temperature variations can be larger than ambient ones, assuming that these are the ones which drive them). Cheers, S.A. attachment: P_Xs_T_Amb_20121213_0700_0733_Eu.PNG
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 12:55 AM 12/13/2012, Eric Walker wrote: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig mailto:cchayniepub...@gmail.comcchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Re almost hourly fluctuations in T_Ambient -- the HVAC system kicking in periodically, maybe? If this is so, if it persists, then it could show that the calorimetry is sensitive to ambient, as others have noted. This could easily be tested. In some work, there is an outer environmental chamber that is temperature-controlled. I'm seeing some work now being done with isoperibolic or Seebeck calorimetry done inside of a larger Seebeck. A temperature-controlled environment has often been considered important, to remove that variable. (Basically, a calibration at one ambient temperature is not accurate at another.) Either all work must be done with constant ambient, or calibrations must be done across the ambient temperature range. Cold fusion calorimetry can be tricky, and I consider that the antifusion coffin was only nailed shut by correlation with helium. We don't know the ash with NiH reactions. If massive heat is ultimately confirmed, that can overwhelm skepticism, but ... it has not been confirmed. If the ash is deuterium, as Storms proposes, it's going to be difficult, because deuterium is a normal and substantial contaminant. But if the reaction is sustained for long enough, at high enough levels, and especially with deuterium-depleted water (it's available), a heat/deuterium correlation could be measured.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 01:00 AM 12/13/2012, Eric Walker wrote: I wrote: Re almost hourly fluctuations in T_Ambient -- the HVAC system kicking in periodically, maybe? Also, do any of the electronics folks here know what the effect might be on the instrumentation providing us with a measure for P_in if the external power supply were erratic? Power supply monitoring is essential. The usual suspected problem is the presence of transients that would cause error in voltage or current measurements, or, even if those are done in a way that produces correct averages, the power with complex signals can differ from the product of average current and average voltage. So workers look at the power supply voltage/current with high-bandwidth oscilloscopes, and use power calculations that are not naive. For example, the voltage and current may be sampled simultaneously at high data rate, and multiplied to calculate instantaneous power, and then *that* is averaged and reported periodically, as every second or every minute. I've seen attempts to criticize the SRI results based on claims that the input power was not accurately measured. That is Garwin's last stated opinion, by the way, that there must be some error. Looking at the overall data, it's preposterous, but this kind of claim can be made, armchair, by those who concluded long ago that it wasn't necessary to get into the details. Since cold fusion is impossible, of course. Dieter Britz also, recently, at the suggestion of a skeptic with whom I was engaged in extensive discussions, examined the issue. Bubble noise causes transients in power supply voltage, and Britz looked at the actual effect, based on known experimental data from the past. He found that any possible error was insignificant. But caution is needed, obviously, and naive beginners in the field might miss some of these possibilities.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 01:50 AM 12/13/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I looked at the voltage, current, and R/R0 values over various periods and they all look completely flat to me. At what frequencies? How did you look? If you are looking at a low-bandwidth display, you might miss high-frequency transients.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 02:04 AM 12/13/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: Got from another LENR researcher: There are several reported values for the enthalpy of formation of nickel hydride with -8.8 kJ/mol being the lowest and -16.3 kJ/mol being the highest at standard temperature and pressure. He went on to show that given a wire containing 0.3g of Ni, enthalpy could account for less than 10 watts for 10 seconds. I took away that no matter how you torture the numbers, the resulting values are going to be orders of magnitude too small to account for Celani-type results. I have a spreadsheet with the calculations. If anyone wants to see it I'll go back to him and ask him about sharing. The heat of formation of nickel hydride will create apparent XP as loading is increased (i.e., during set-up or later if factors cause loading to increase), and apparent negative XP as it is decreased. It's a significant effect that researchers must consider, but it does not persist, and it is irrelevant when loading is constant. Generally, cold fusion researchers attempt to measure and monitor loading. It is typically a critical variable.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Generally, cold fusion researchers attempt to measure and monitor loading. It is typically a critical variable. I think that would be very difficult with this system. Probably impossible. The mass of the wire is small and it does not absorb much gas. It is a good idea to measure that, if you can. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 03:07 AM 12/13/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I am looking at 1 minute averages. This is very solid. Okay. This would not detect invisible excess input power due to power supply high-frequency variations. At all. This is what SRI did. They used a constant-current power supply, with high-bandwidth control. The supply, then, faced with transients in resistance, rapidly varies the voltage. So voltage is sampled at high frequency, and is averaged and reported periodically. However, it's rather obvious, there must be some variation in current, or the supply would not know to alter the voltage. Supplies actually produce constant voltage naturally, if they are beefy enough, which they usually are. Internal feedback rapidly changes the voltage to maintain constant current, when the supply is in constant current mode. What Britz studied was the effect of current noise. It was very low. If the current is tightly controlled, power remains the product of average voltage times the constant current. Thus the challenged assumption was constant current. As McKubre has written, these supplies -- at least the one he used, which was documented -- are very good. To be sure, workers in the field have examined the current with high-bandwidth oscilloscopes. (They had not documented this in the papers, one cannot possibly, in normally-published papers, document *everything*, but we asked.) They don't see the high-frequency noise that would cause a problem. The researchers should nail this down, and check for true solidity in the power supply, otherwise, indeed, high-frequency noise could cause misreporting of input power.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
No argument. All we can say right now is neither factor (HF supply noise / enthalpy) appears to be significant based on the available data for the supplies and reasonable analysis on the chemical side. Neither the data nor the analysis is everything one could ask for. Jeff On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 03:07 AM 12/13/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I am looking at 1 minute averages. This is very solid. Okay. This would not detect invisible excess input power due to power supply high-frequency variations. At all. This is what SRI did. They used a constant-current power supply, with high-bandwidth control. The supply, then, faced with transients in resistance, rapidly varies the voltage. So voltage is sampled at high frequency, and is averaged and reported periodically. However, it's rather obvious, there must be some variation in current, or the supply would not know to alter the voltage. Supplies actually produce constant voltage naturally, if they are beefy enough, which they usually are. Internal feedback rapidly changes the voltage to maintain constant current, when the supply is in constant current mode. What Britz studied was the effect of current noise. It was very low. If the current is tightly controlled, power remains the product of average voltage times the constant current. Thus the challenged assumption was constant current. As McKubre has written, these supplies -- at least the one he used, which was documented -- are very good. To be sure, workers in the field have examined the current with high-bandwidth oscilloscopes. (They had not documented this in the papers, one cannot possibly, in normally-published papers, document *everything*, but we asked.) They don't see the high-frequency noise that would cause a problem. The researchers should nail this down, and check for true solidity in the power supply, otherwise, indeed, high-frequency noise could cause misreporting of input power.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 03:40 PM 12/13/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: No argument. All we can say right now is neither factor (HF supply noise / enthalpy) appears to be significant based on the available data for the supplies and reasonable analysis on the chemical side. Neither the data nor the analysis is everything one could ask for. I want to make it clear that what I've written about this work is not a specific criticism of it. My comments have been general, not specific. In a certain sense, proceeding first with a Celani replication, rather than jumping to more accurate calorimetry, is quite sensible. A replication aims to reproduce original results, where possible Using the *same* calorimetry as Celani, even though that calorimetry is subject to criticism, if it shows the same results, serves as a replication. *Then* more accurate calorimetry can be used, in an effort to discover artifact.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 02:55 PM 12/13/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Generally, cold fusion researchers attempt to measure and monitor loading. It is typically a critical variable. I think that would be very difficult with this system. Probably impossible. The mass of the wire is small and it does not absorb much gas. It is a good idea to measure that, if you can. Loading is correlated with resistance of the wire. Actual loading of a wire, even a small one, can be measured by quickly removing the wire and measuring outgassing. There are various approaches. I'm not at all sure that it is important here.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
On 2012-12-12 22:08, Arnaud Kodeck wrote: http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/176-eu-cell-2-active-wire-run Promising results are shown from EU cell of MFMP ! It seems that even taking into account the most conservative baseline to determine output power by curve fitting (to the previously made calibration runs), they're already showing excess power at about 6W. With the least conservative baseline, that's about 20W. It looks like using borosilicate glass instead of quartz did really make a difference. Quartz glass is almost completely transparent to IR radiation, while borosilicate glass is mostly (although not totally) opaque to it. Note to readers: the MFMP team is not using the Stefan-Boltzmann law to determine output power. This decreases the likelihood of large errors. I think it's safe to say that the MFMP finally successfully replicated Celani's anomalous thermal effect from his treated Constantan wires. The next step is now to determine whether that is a real effect or it's all due to a really unexpected artifact lurking somewhere. Cheers, S.A.
RE: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Akira said : I think it's safe to say that the MFMP finally successfully replicated Celani's anomalous thermal effect from his treated Constantan wires. The next step is now to determine whether that is a real effect or it's all due to a really unexpected artifact lurking somewhere. I would be a little more conservative. The excess power must be kept for more than an hour or two, to at least remove any chemical reaction that may occur. As shown now, the excess power has decreased just above 4W. That excess heat might not stay long. Cross finger that it will happen.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
On 2012-12-12 22:57, Arnaud Kodeck wrote: I would be a little more conservative. The excess power must be kept for more than an hour or two, to at least remove any chemical reaction that may occur. As shown now, the excess power has decreased just above 4W. That excess heat might not stay long. Cross finger that it will happen. You're right. More time is needed to rule out chemical reactions, for the current run. Before applying power directly to the active wire, they heated the cell with the reference (inert) wire for several hours continuously, and it still appeared to show significant amounts (a few watts) of excess heat however, so I think that chemical sources can already be ruled out. The real question, as I previously mentioned, probably is if this excess heat effect is actually real or not. Cheers, S.A.
RE: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
A self sustained system will insure that the excess heat effect is real. That means put 12m of Celani's wire inside the cell (4W *12 = 48 equal to input power). But the system will become very unstable. The 4W is an average calculated so far from results today. As Rossi claims to do, a buffer of input power must be kept. Increasing the ratio output / input will insure us of the excess heat. -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa [mailto:shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com] Sent: mercredi 12 décembre 2012 23:06 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP On 2012-12-12 22:57, Arnaud Kodeck wrote: I would be a little more conservative. The excess power must be kept for more than an hour or two, to at least remove any chemical reaction that may occur. As shown now, the excess power has decreased just above 4W. That excess heat might not stay long. Cross finger that it will happen. You're right. More time is needed to rule out chemical reactions, for the current run. Before applying power directly to the active wire, they heated the cell with the reference (inert) wire for several hours continuously, and it still appeared to show significant amounts (a few watts) of excess heat however, so I think that chemical sources can already be ruled out. The real question, as I previously mentioned, probably is if this excess heat effect is actually real or not. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
On 2012-12-12 22:57, Arnaud Kodeck wrote: As shown now, the excess power has decreased just above 4W. That excess heat might not stay long. Cross finger that it will happen. It looks like it increased again. Now it's at almost 8W. No apparent change in input power or external conditions. Surely, this cell is behaving interestingly. Cheers, S.A.
RE: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I suspect a correlation with ambient temperature with a delay of around 6~8 min. The ambient temperature went down at 23:20 and the calculated excess power decreased a few minutes later, now at 6W On 2012-12-12 22:57, Arnaud Kodeck wrote: As shown now, the excess power has decreased just above 4W. That excess heat might not stay long. Cross finger that it will happen. It looks like it increased again. Now it's at almost 8W. No apparent change in input power or external conditions. Surely, this cell is behaving interestingly. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
The results from the latest test run of the MFMP Celani replication are definitely interesting, but there appear to be some strange things happening. I assume that the power being inputted to the device has an equal effect upon the outer glass temperature regardless of the drive wire. I am not sure there has been a good argument as to why this is not true. If my assumption is correct, then there appears to be an endothermic event when the power was first shifted from inactive to active. This lasted for around 3000 seconds until the power began to rise. The small excess output power lasted for about 1500 seconds. The excess power was very small during this first rise. After the rise, an exponential decay occurred that dropped the output into the endothermic region for a period of approximately 2000 seconds. I would estimate that a significantly larger amount of energy was absorbed during this event than released by the positive pulse. Next a second positive excess region occurred that was larger than the first and lasted for about 1000 seconds. This period was also followed by a negative excess power pulse that exceeded the area of the positive one. The pattern seems to be following the same process into the future. Why do we see a breathing type of effect? It looks very much like energy is stored and then released, but only a good calibration could verify this is happening. I am not aware of any process that would allow energy to be stored during a relatively long period of time and then released for a similar period. This is going to be an interesting behavior to analyze. I hope that the end result is that there is additional energy being generated by LENR, but it is not entirely evident at the moment. I speculate that the only way that extra energy is being generated is if the true calibration is different depending upon which wire is driven. And only then if drive to the active wire does not lead to endothermic behavior. Dave -Original Message- From: Arnaud Kodeck arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 12, 2012 4:57 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP Akira said : I think it's safe to say that the MFMP finally successfully replicated Celani's anomalous thermal effect from his treated Constantan wires. The next step is now to determine whether that is a real effect or it's all due to a really unexpected artifact lurking somewhere. I would be a little more conservative. The excess power must be kept for more than an hour or two, to at least remove any chemical reaction that may occur. As shown now, the excess power has decreased just above 4W. That excess heat might not stay long. Cross finger that it will happen.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 7:47 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Why do we see a breathing type of effect? This is exactly the term used by McKubre. It occurs in DPd reactions as the metal is loaded to 90+% then allowed to unload. The gas moves into the crystal structure and out again. It is the motion of the loaded gas which affects the reaction in PdD. Can we relate the same to NiH somehow?
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I believe the initial endothermic event is the collapse of matter within the void creating a ball of entropy, which then in turn begins to trigger beta decay in its surroundings releasing some heat, this will be a continual cycle as long as you can keep triggering the collapse. Stewart On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here: http://data.hugnetlab.com/ to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Very strange. Craig On 12/12/2012 09:05 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 7:47 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Why do we see a breathing type of effect? This is exactly the term used by McKubre. It occurs in DPd reactions as the metal is loaded to 90+% then allowed to unload. The gas moves into the crystal structure and out again. It is the motion of the loaded gas which affects the reaction in PdD. Can we relate the same to NiH somehow?
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I should say percentage of loading does not appear to be an issue. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
And what about in the MFM Project? [m] On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Why is it not an issue? [m] On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
It's the cracks per Storms. The reactions appear to occur at the surfaces only. In solid Pd, you have to saturate the crystalline structure. With high surface areas in Ni powder or Celani's treated (cracked) wire, there is much more surface area so loading of the total crystal is much less in play. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: And what about in the MFM Project? [m] On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Defkalion actually alters the crystalline structure. Cracks do not appear to be the issue in their reaction. They have found a secret in altering the crystal structure to increase the reaction. I'll bet that the reactions occur at the surface still. Note that Defkalion uses nickel foam, not powder. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Why is it not an issue? [m] On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
You have to expose electrons in the Ni by altering the structure of the crystal or creating cracks so that they can influence the excited electrons in the nascent hydrogen and, using exclusion, the Ni electrons influence the positions of the H electorns making the H atoms momentarily appear to be neutrons. I think. :-) On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Defkalion actually alters the crystalline structure. Cracks do not appear to be the issue in their reaction. They have found a secret in altering the crystal structure to increase the reaction. I'll bet that the reactions occur at the surface still. Note that Defkalion uses nickel foam, not powder. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Why is it not an issue? [m] On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
On 2012-12-13 03:29, Craig wrote: This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here: http://data.hugnetlab.com/ to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Whatever this is, it didn't happen with the previous overnight run with power applied to the inert wire (and the active wire partially loaded, in hydrogen atmosphere). This is a user-submitted image from the MFMP blog showing it: http://i.imgur.com/bB383.png (note that Power (Red) actually shows W instead of bar) From 2012-12-12 00:00 to about 10:00, external glass temperature (under 50W of indirect heating) didn't seem to fluctuate very much with ambient temperature. However with direct heating (48W) it does quite much. The main difference between those two runs is that the one with indirect heating had a starting hydrogen pressure of 2 bar (which increase with heat, of course), while the latter ones started at 1 bar, probably offering less thermal inertia (but still not explaining how glass temperature variations can be larger than ambient ones, assuming that these are the ones which drive them). Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I wonder if Rossi has observed a similar breathing effect. Recalling the graph from his sept (?) 2011 demo reminds me of the first oscillation of the graph below. Rossi may have choosen to limit the length of his public demonstrations to conceal the oscillations and perhaps his diffiiculty in maintaining and/or modulating them. Harry On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here: http://data.hugnetlab.com/ to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Very strange. Craig On 12/12/2012 09:05 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 7:47 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Why do we see a breathing type of effect? This is exactly the term used by McKubre. It occurs in DPd reactions as the metal is loaded to 90+% then allowed to unload. The gas moves into the crystal structure and out again. It is the motion of the loaded gas which affects the reaction in PdD. Can we relate the same to NiH somehow?
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Why not? On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I should say percentage of loading does not appear to be an issue. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg]
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
The breathing correlates with T_Mica very well. Isn't this the temperature of the wire? If so, then it's actually power that is oscillating. I was thinking it might be something in the room environment. Craig On 12/12/2012 09:49 PM, Akira Shirakawa wrote: On 2012-12-13 03:29, Craig wrote: This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here: http://data.hugnetlab.com/ to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Whatever this is, it didn't happen with the previous overnight run with power applied to the inert wire (and the active wire partially loaded, in hydrogen atmosphere). This is a user-submitted image from the MFMP blog showing it: http://i.imgur.com/bB383.png (note that Power (Red) actually shows W instead of bar) From 2012-12-12 00:00 to about 10:00, external glass temperature (under 50W of indirect heating) didn't seem to fluctuate very much with ambient temperature. However with direct heating (48W) it does quite much. The main difference between those two runs is that the one with indirect heating had a starting hydrogen pressure of 2 bar (which increase with heat, of course), while the latter ones started at 1 bar, probably offering less thermal inertia (but still not explaining how glass temperature variations can be larger than ambient ones, assuming that these are the ones which drive them). Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I once did some calculation with the volume of the wire, it seems that at 14Watts of output, you have an output equivalent of the same volume in gasoline burned every 2 minutes. It's an amazing quantity of energy for such small volume. And gasoline surely holds much more energy/volume than a lattice with loaded hydrogen. If a lattice could hold so much energy, our problems with urban pollution would be long solved... and also, rockets would be much cheaper and we would be colonizing mars for decades already. So, what we have here today either can be only ascribed to an error of measurement, since today's readings is already enormous, or is nuclear or something else weird. 2012/12/13 Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com Why not? On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I should say percentage of loading does not appear to be an issue. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: With NiH loading is not an issue. It seems we have two totally different LENR reactions occuring. Are they based on the same physics? Maybe yes, maybe no. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, McKubre takes the endothermic loading and exothermic off loading into his calculations in his work at SRI. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg] -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
At 09:17 PM 12/12/2012, Mark Gibbs wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg] This has been studied in great detail. However, there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. Loading of hydrogen or deuterium into palladium, for example, is exothermic. I'm not so sure about nickel. But, certainly in the study of the Fleischmann-Pons Heat Effect, the study has taken into account all the known chemistry. Further, many different types of controls have been used. And for frosting on the cake, again with the FPHE, helium has been measured and shown to be correlated with the excess energy. The value of the ratio is the value expected from the fusion of deuterium to helium, and this has been confirmed by a dozen research groups. Above I mention that the loading of deuterium into palladium is exothermic. So heat after death is particularly interesting, where cells develop very substantial anomalous heat when the electrolytic current, which is used to maintain high loading, is turned *off*. A lot of heat can appear, lasting for days, sometimes. At that point, the deuterium will start to deload, it's like evaporation, and like evaporation, this will *cool* the cathode. The skeptical answer to this has been the cigarette lighter effect, i.e., a claim that the deloading deuterium is combusting. But there isn't enough oxygen there for that. This would quickly extinguish itself, if it were happening. Look, cold fusion was discovered by expert chemists. They actually did, Mark, know what they were talking about. Pons and Fleischmann were not physicists and they had no experience measuring neutrons, but they thought they could trust a neutron meter. No. So they ended up with egg on their faces from making a claim about neutron radiation that any expert physicists, experienced with measuring neutrons, would not have made. But Fleischmann was the world's foremost experts on electrochemistry, and the calorimetry they used was about the best ever done. They were measuring heat to the milliwatt. Their work has been confirmed with many different approaches, and imagining that such an obvious error as forgetting to allow for whatever went into the cell would be made by so many experts -- cold fusion researchers are *mostly* expert chemists -- is rather naive. Something that is overlooked is that the FPHE is set up by loading palladium with deuterium. That is an energy-producing process, but maintaining the electrolysis for a long time does consume energy. That energy ends up as the potential energy of separated hydrogen/deuterium and oxygen. If that's allowed to escape, and if it were not accounted for, it would be negative XP. Open cells, like those of Pons and Fleischmann, are pretty complex to analyze, partly because of this. SRI International, which was hired by the Electric Power Research Institute in 1989 to research cold fusion, built their own calorimeter, and it was not as sensitive as the work done by PF, but it was basically bulletproof, flow calorimetry, running at constant temperature, not vulernable to calibration problems (on the other hand, PF calibrated their calorimetry with a resistor pulse every day). SRI, and many researchers, use a recombiner in the cell, which essentially burns the generated gas in the cell, recovering that energy, so there is no need to compensate for it. There does need to be an accounting for orphaned oxygen, but, again, that is a negative contribution to anomalous power. It represents unrecombined gas that has stored up so much energy. People have gone over the calorimetry in this work with a fine-tooth comb. Minor errors have been claimed or identified, but the basic cold fusion calorimetry work stands, and if you can figure out a way that helium just happens to match, with the FPHE, heat from the calorimetry, other than having a common cause, well, you have a much better imagination than I. It doesn't merely correlate, it correlates at the fusion value. That would ordinarily be considered totally conclusive. Skeptics have independently challenged the calorimetry and, as well, the helium measurements, claiming that it might be leakage, but what I've seen is that the skeptics ignore the correlation, which actually acts to confirm both the heat and helium measurements, at least in round outlines. Mark, if you want to know the science here, read Storms, Status of cold fusion (2010) in Naturwissenschaften. There is a preprint on lenr-canr.org. That's a peer-reviewed review of the field in a mainstream journal, established in 1913, now owned by Springer-Verlag and operated as their flagship multidisciplinary journal. That's the state of the science. The extreme skeptical
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm, with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a correlation with T_Ambient, but why? Re almost hourly fluctuations in T_Ambient -- the HVAC system kicking in periodically, maybe? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I wrote: Re almost hourly fluctuations in T_Ambient -- the HVAC system kicking in periodically, maybe? Also, do any of the electronics folks here know what the effect might be on the instrumentation providing us with a measure for P_in if the external power supply were erratic? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
I looked at the voltage, current, and R/R0 values over various periods and they all look completely flat to me. I don't see any evidence of erratic power supply behavior. I'm not so sure about the correlation with T_ambient either. If you zoom to the 14:00 - 14:50 period the ambient temp drops slightly while the P_Xs rises for many minutes. There are other periods like this too. Jeff On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote: Re almost hourly fluctuations in T_Ambient -- the HVAC system kicking in periodically, maybe? Also, do any of the electronics folks here know what the effect might be on the instrumentation providing us with a measure for P_in if the external power supply were erratic? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP
Got from another LENR researcher: There are several reported values for the enthalpy of formation of nickel hydride with -8.8 kJ/mol being the lowest and -16.3 kJ/mol being the highest at standard temperature and pressure. He went on to show that given a wire containing 0.3g of Ni, enthalpy could account for less than 10 watts for 10 seconds. I took away that no matter how you torture the numbers, the resulting values are going to be orders of magnitude too small to account for Celani-type results. I have a spreadsheet with the calculations. If anyone wants to see it I'll go back to him and ask him about sharing. Jeff On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 09:17 PM 12/12/2012, Mark Gibbs wrote: Something I haven't seen any discussion about is the amount of energy required to load materials with hydrogen to be used in these various LENR/CF devices. If that energy is taken into account, are the claims of excess energy from the operation of the devices still valid? [mg] This has been studied in great detail. However, there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. Loading of hydrogen or deuterium into palladium, for example, is exothermic. I'm not so sure about nickel. But, certainly in the study of the Fleischmann-Pons Heat Effect, the study has taken into account all the known chemistry. Further, many different types of controls have been used. And for frosting on the cake, again with the FPHE, helium has been measured and shown to be correlated with the excess energy. The value of the ratio is the value expected from the fusion of deuterium to helium, and this has been confirmed by a dozen research groups. Above I mention that the loading of deuterium into palladium is exothermic. So heat after death is particularly interesting, where cells develop very substantial anomalous heat when the electrolytic current, which is used to maintain high loading, is turned *off*. A lot of heat can appear, lasting for days, sometimes. At that point, the deuterium will start to deload, it's like evaporation, and like evaporation, this will *cool* the cathode. The skeptical answer to this has been the cigarette lighter effect, i.e., a claim that the deloading deuterium is combusting. But there isn't enough oxygen there for that. This would quickly extinguish itself, if it were happening. Look, cold fusion was discovered by expert chemists. They actually did, Mark, know what they were talking about. Pons and Fleischmann were not physicists and they had no experience measuring neutrons, but they thought they could trust a neutron meter. No. So they ended up with egg on their faces from making a claim about neutron radiation that any expert physicists, experienced with measuring neutrons, would not have made. But Fleischmann was the world's foremost experts on electrochemistry, and the calorimetry they used was about the best ever done. They were measuring heat to the milliwatt. Their work has been confirmed with many different approaches, and imagining that such an obvious error as forgetting to allow for whatever went into the cell would be made by so many experts -- cold fusion researchers are *mostly* expert chemists -- is rather naive. Something that is overlooked is that the FPHE is set up by loading palladium with deuterium. That is an energy-producing process, but maintaining the electrolysis for a long time does consume energy. That energy ends up as the potential energy of separated hydrogen/deuterium and oxygen. If that's allowed to escape, and if it were not accounted for, it would be negative XP. Open cells, like those of Pons and Fleischmann, are pretty complex to analyze, partly because of this. SRI International, which was hired by the Electric Power Research Institute in 1989 to research cold fusion, built their own calorimeter, and it was not as sensitive as the work done by PF, but it was basically bulletproof, flow calorimetry, running at constant temperature, not vulernable to calibration problems (on the other hand, PF calibrated their calorimetry with a resistor pulse every day). SRI, and many researchers, use a recombiner in the cell, which essentially burns the generated gas in the cell, recovering that energy, so there is no need to compensate for it. There does need to be an accounting for orphaned oxygen, but, again, that is a negative contribution to anomalous power. It represents unrecombined gas that has stored up so much energy. People have gone over the calorimetry in this work with a fine-tooth comb. Minor errors have been claimed or identified, but the basic cold fusion calorimetry work stands, and if you can figure out a way that helium just happens to match, with the FPHE, heat from the calorimetry, other than having a common cause, well, you have a much better imagination than I. It doesn't merely correlate, it correlates at the fusion value. That would ordinarily
