Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
This is the same old run-around we get from Levi, including willful withholding of information. On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Nope. Even if I did, it would prove nothing, since anyone can write a few lines of ascii text and claim they came from an e-mail. That is arguable at least if you use PGP or OpenPGP to sign your bytes. I think anyone that sends data on the public should use some kind of digital signature system, better if it is based on open standards. Let me state this a little more clearly. A little more categorically. I have uploaded 1,200 papers about cold fusion, including some by leading opponents claiming that cold fusion does not exist, and it is fraud. I have uploaded a long, detailed list of reasons to doubt that Rossi's results are real. (The Rossi hints.) I was one of the first one here to describe Rossi and his many personal foibles. I said clearly that these foibles make me nervous, and that I questioned his claims. Until the January demonstrations I was unwilling to believe these claims -- but of course I never disbelieve something without detailed knowledge and good reasons. I am skeptic in the original sense of the word. In short, I have demonstrated many times, in many ways, that I am willing to report the facts about cold fusion, even when those facts are bad for public relations. Even when they are setbacks that hurt the image of the field. I have demonstrated that I do not play favorites in disputes when it comes to uploading papers. I do not ever distort or hide technical facts. I have a proven track record. I have credibility. If Damon Craig does not trust me, and if he thinks I have deliberately uploaded fake data or exaggerated data into the news section, he can go to hell. I am not going to lift a finger or take any steps to reassure him that I am telling the truth. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Damon Craig decra...@gmail.com wrote: This is the same old run-around we get from Levi, including willful withholding of information. You make it sound as if this were a police investigation and you are the District Attorney. Let me set you straight. 1. Levi and I are under no obligation to tell you anything. Many scientists keep secrets. 2. I have not withheld technical information, except information I consider incomplete or unreliable. Other information I have is none of your business. 3. If you don't like our information, don't read it. Read Krivit instead. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Still waiting. On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Damon Craig decra...@gmail.com wrote: This is the same old run-around we get from Levi, including willful withholding of information. You make it sound as if this were a police investigation and you are the District Attorney. Let me set you straight. 1. Levi and I are under no obligation to tell you anything. Many scientists keep secrets. 2. I have not withheld technical information, except information I consider incomplete or unreliable. Other information I have is none of your business. 3. If you don't like our information, don't read it. Read Krivit instead. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Lewan still believes this stuff, hu? On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Damon Craig wrote: Can you post it here, verbatum? Not the entire email, if you like, just the data. Nope. Even if I did, it would prove nothing, since anyone can write a few lines of ascii text and claim they came from an e-mail. You need to stop harping on this. Take it or leave it. The same data appeared in NyTeknik. I think I can speak for Lewan in saying that neither of us cares whether you believe us or not. As they say in Japanese: iikagen ni shinasai. (Actually in this case it would be iikagen ni shiro.) Lewan and I might be lying to you. Rossi and Levi might be lying to us. Believing this calls for a measure of faith in the whole gang of us. If you don't have that faith, too bad. There is no way I can give you more reassurance even if I wanted to, and I don't. I suggest you look at the totality of the evidence, including all those other Ni cold fusion experiments. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
2011/7/28 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Damon Craig wrote: Can you post it here, verbatum? Not the entire email, if you like, just the data. Nope. Even if I did, it would prove nothing, since anyone can write a few lines of ascii text and claim they came from an e-mail. That is arguable at least if you use PGP or OpenPGP to sign your bytes. I think anyone that sends data on the public should use some kind of digital signature system, better if it is based on open standards. See http://www.gnupg.org for instance. mic You need to stop harping on this. Take it or leave it. The same data appeared in NyTeknik. I think I can speak for Lewan in saying that neither of us cares whether you believe us or not. As they say in Japanese: iikagen ni shinasai. (Actually in this case it would be iikagen ni shiro.) Lewan and I might be lying to you. Rossi and Levi might be lying to us. Believing this calls for a measure of faith in the whole gang of us. If you don't have that faith, too bad. There is no way I can give you more reassurance even if I wanted to, and I don't. I suggest you look at the totality of the evidence, including all those other Ni cold fusion experiments. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Damon Craig decra...@gmail.com wrote: Lewan still believes this stuff, hu? You may be certain that if he or I knew of any reason to doubt these claims, we would publish these reasons. I have done this already, here: http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator:Rossi%27s_Hints You may disagree with our evaluations. You may think there are valid reasons to doubt Rossi's claims. You might even suspect that he is a fraud. But you should not doubt from one moment that Lewan and I will report what we believe to be true at all times. Neither of us has staked our reputations on Rossi's claims. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Nope. Even if I did, it would prove nothing, since anyone can write a few lines of ascii text and claim they came from an e-mail. That is arguable at least if you use PGP or OpenPGP to sign your bytes. I think anyone that sends data on the public should use some kind of digital signature system, better if it is based on open standards. Let me state this a little more clearly. A little more categorically. I have uploaded 1,200 papers about cold fusion, including some by leading opponents claiming that cold fusion does not exist, and it is fraud. I have uploaded a long, detailed list of reasons to doubt that Rossi's results are real. (The Rossi hints.) I was one of the first one here to describe Rossi and his many personal foibles. I said clearly that these foibles make me nervous, and that I questioned his claims. Until the January demonstrations I was unwilling to believe these claims -- but of course I never disbelieve something without detailed knowledge and good reasons. I am skeptic in the original sense of the word. In short, I have demonstrated many times, in many ways, that I am willing to report the facts about cold fusion, even when those facts are bad for public relations. Even when they are setbacks that hurt the image of the field. I have demonstrated that I do not play favorites in disputes when it comes to uploading papers. I do not ever distort or hide technical facts. I have a proven track record. I have credibility. If Damon Craig does not trust me, and if he thinks I have deliberately uploaded fake data or exaggerated data into the news section, he can go to hell. I am not going to lift a finger or take any steps to reassure him that I am telling the truth. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Hi Jed. I understand you passed along some information from an insider at Levi's second experiment and sent it to along to be included in an article here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm Some folks saying you skewed the data. I'm not saying you did. And I'm not saying you didn't. It's just hard to tell one way or the other. If you still have this data in some physical form you could scan or reproduce, it would go a long way in clearing this up. On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: All true. Consider that Milli is somehow considered alternative, not always representative of the family. But yes when you talk about oil business in Italy their name is the first on the list. Well, I hope they take an active interest in cold fusion, and invest in it. I have long felt that the opposition to cold fusion is weaker than it seems. It is a mile wide and an inch deep as the expression goes. I felt that if we could just reach out to people, and break through the noise and distortions in the mass media, we could get more support. Support is likely to lead to funding. I realize there are powerful people opposed to the research, especially in places such as the DoE. Opponents have often torpedoed funding. They stopped the publication of the ACS book, which was later published here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BiberianJPjcondensedc.pdf People such as Robert Park have often pulled strings to prevent funding. Others in the establishment say nothing but they tacitly approve of his shenanigans. As Ed Storms says, Park would have no influence if powerful people did not agree with him. He is not the head of an agency. The only thing he has is influence in high places. There is nothing untoward about that. I wish I had such influence! The point is, this demonstrates that opposition to cold fusion is widespread. It is a mile wide, as I said. I have not conducted a public opinion poll of scientists but my impression is that the skeptics are correct in saying that the claims are largely disbelieved in the mainstream scientific community. (Wikipedia) This is because most people in the mainstream scientific community know nothing about the subject, so their views do not count. In any other academic debate no one would dispute this. No one would say, for example: Most American literary critics do not speak Japanese and have never heard of Natsume Soseki so his works have no literary value. They would say the people who know nothing about Japanese literature have no basis to discuss any aspect of it. The editors at most major journals despise cold fusion. It makes them angry, because they are convinced it is a fraud and a waste of funding. The plasma fusion people hate it the most. These opponents are all academic scientists. They despise cold fusion because they are certain it is theoretically impossible. Not because they fear it might be true! They are not such fools they would oppose something they think might be true. I do not know of anyone who opposes cold fusion because they have a vested interest in oil, solar energy, or some other source of energy. So I am not surprised that Milli Moratti is interested. If cold fusion starts to succeed in a big way, then I expect many people in the fossil fuel industry will begin to fear it. At present, I doubt any of them do. But they do not confide in me so I wouldn't know. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
From Damon: I understand you passed along some information from an insider at Levi's second experiment and sent it to along to be included in an article here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm Some folks saying you skewed the data. I'm not saying you did. And I'm not saying you didn't. It's just hard to tell one way or the other. If you still have this data in some physical form you could scan or reproduce, it would go a long way in clearing this up. Some folks saying... There is another angle to this inquiry of yours. It seems to me that your post implies that Jed is skewing the reporting of the facts as he perceives those facts, but you're trying to give the impression to everyone that you are being impartial. It also seems to me that you are trying to put Jed on the defensive. A baiting tactic. I remember someone who recently gave a radio interview where the interviewer titled his broadcast with a specific phrase that certain CF researchers had lied about their data. When the interviewer got around to asking his guest about this accusation the interviewee replied that he personally did not say that certain CF researchers had lied, but then he followed up with the comment that listeners should draw their own conclusion. I remember talking to a lawyer about that conversation because the interviewee's response had deeply disturbed me. I wanted the lawyer's professional opinion on what had transpired. Have you heard of the term weasel worded? IMHO, it would have been more honorable if you had simply stated your current personal opinion on the matter and then ask for clarification - because you realize the possibility that you might have come to an incorrect conclusion. Of course, I'm assuming you do occasionally consider the possibility that you might be wrong. But then I could be wrong on that matter. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionworks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Damon Craig decra...@gmail.com wrote: I understand you passed along some information from an insider at Levi's second experiment and sent it to along to be included in an article here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm Some folks saying you skewed the data. I'm not saying you did. And I'm not saying you didn't. Of course you are saying that I did! You just said it. And it is a stupid thing to say. The numbers at LENR-CANR are there for everyone to see, including Rossi and Levi. There is a link to that page in Rossi's blog. As you know he filters and approves of every posting. He and the others would have told me if the numbers are wrong. You can compare my numbers to the NyTeknik report. They are pretty much the same. The tap water temperature is different. I do not know which is right. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
I saw the numbers at lenr-canr. How did you get them. Was it on a scrap of paper? On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Damon Craig decra...@gmail.com wrote: I understand you passed along some information from an insider at Levi's second experiment and sent it to along to be included in an article here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm Some folks saying you skewed the data. I'm not saying you did. And I'm not saying you didn't. Of course you are saying that I did! You just said it. And it is a stupid thing to say. The numbers at LENR-CANR are there for everyone to see, including Rossi and Levi. There is a link to that page in Rossi's blog. As you know he filters and approves of every posting. He and the others would have told me if the numbers are wrong. You can compare my numbers to the NyTeknik report. They are pretty much the same. The tap water temperature is different. I do not know which is right. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Damon Craig wrote: I saw the numbers at lenr-canr. How did you get them. Was it on a scrap of paper? By e-mail. Also, looking through my e-mail I see that I sent them off to Rossi and others, and they confirmed them. Plus you can compare them to the Nyteknik articles, as I said. The people doing the tests gave the same info to Lewan and to me. Whether these numbers are correct or not I cannot say, but I have no reason to doubt them. Neither do you. They are in reasonable agreement with the earlier steam tests for the same device. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Can you post it here, verbatum? Not the entire email, if you like, just the data. On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Damon Craig wrote: I saw the numbers at lenr-canr. How did you get them. Was it on a scrap of paper? By e-mail. Also, looking through my e-mail I see that I sent them off to Rossi and others, and they confirmed them. Plus you can compare them to the Nyteknik articles, as I said. The people doing the tests gave the same info to Lewan and to me. Whether these numbers are correct or not I cannot say, but I have no reason to doubt them. Neither do you. They are in reasonable agreement with the earlier steam tests for the same device. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Damon Craig wrote: Can you post it here, verbatum? Not the entire email, if you like, just the data. Nope. Even if I did, it would prove nothing, since anyone can write a few lines of ascii text and claim they came from an e-mail. You need to stop harping on this. Take it or leave it. The same data appeared in NyTeknik. I think I can speak for Lewan in saying that neither of us cares whether you believe us or not. As they say in Japanese: iikagen ni shinasai. (Actually in this case it would be iikagen ni shiro.) Lewan and I might be lying to you. Rossi and Levi might be lying to us. Believing this calls for a measure of faith in the whole gang of us. If you don't have that faith, too bad. There is no way I can give you more reassurance even if I wanted to, and I don't. I suggest you look at the totality of the evidence, including all those other Ni cold fusion experiments. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
All true. Consider that Milli is somehow considered alternative, not always representative of the family. But yes when you talk about oil business in Italy their name is the first on the list. mic 2011/7/27 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: See: http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/viareggio-cold-fusion-conference-science-politics-and-an-italian-competitor/ QUOTE: 19.10 – Among the public Milly Moratti takes the word and states that there are clearly now experimental evidences of Cold Fusion. Now, for the one who do not know, Milli Moratti is the wife of Massimo Moratti, one of the richest man in Italy and owner of the Saras Petrol Refinery, The biggest in Italy and one of the biggest in Europe. That’s a 5,3 Billion Euro Company. She has money and the political knowledge. [I have never heard of this person.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Moratti - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: All true. Consider that Milli is somehow considered alternative, not always representative of the family. But yes when you talk about oil business in Italy their name is the first on the list. Well, I hope they take an active interest in cold fusion, and invest in it. I have long felt that the opposition to cold fusion is weaker than it seems. It is a mile wide and an inch deep as the expression goes. I felt that if we could just reach out to people, and break through the noise and distortions in the mass media, we could get more support. Support is likely to lead to funding. I realize there are powerful people opposed to the research, especially in places such as the DoE. Opponents have often torpedoed funding. They stopped the publication of the ACS book, which was later published here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BiberianJPjcondensedc.pdf People such as Robert Park have often pulled strings to prevent funding. Others in the establishment say nothing but they tacitly approve of his shenanigans. As Ed Storms says, Park would have no influence if powerful people did not agree with him. He is not the head of an agency. The only thing he has is influence in high places. There is nothing untoward about that. I wish I had such influence! The point is, this demonstrates that opposition to cold fusion is widespread. It is a mile wide, as I said. I have not conducted a public opinion poll of scientists but my impression is that the skeptics are correct in saying that the claims are largely disbelieved in the mainstream scientific community. (Wikipedia) This is because most people in the mainstream scientific community know nothing about the subject, so their views do not count. In any other academic debate no one would dispute this. No one would say, for example: Most American literary critics do not speak Japanese and have never heard of Natsume Soseki so his works have no literary value. They would say the people who know nothing about Japanese literature have no basis to discuss any aspect of it. The editors at most major journals despise cold fusion. It makes them angry, because they are convinced it is a fraud and a waste of funding. The plasma fusion people hate it the most. These opponents are all academic scientists. They despise cold fusion because they are certain it is theoretically impossible. Not because they fear it might be true! They are not such fools they would oppose something they think might be true. I do not know of anyone who opposes cold fusion because they have a vested interest in oil, solar energy, or some other source of energy. So I am not surprised that Milli Moratti is interested. If cold fusion starts to succeed in a big way, then I expect many people in the fossil fuel industry will begin to fear it. At present, I doubt any of them do. But they do not confide in me so I wouldn't know. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Jed wrote: If cold fusion starts to succeed in a big way, then I expect many people in the fossil fuel industry will begin to fear it Thanks again for excellent post! But I think that even this is exaggerating, because in oil industry people who has there real power are also immeasurable wealthy. And also they have usually more realistic view of the real world, unlike poor people who might irrationally be afraid of better world. This means in practice that airplane that has E-Cat steam engine and can fly through stratosphere is far more convenient than kerosene propelled jet engine that loses most of its power in 10 km and above. Therefore I am sure that any powerful people in oil industry will welcome the technology that makes them unemployed, because this would increase greatly the overall quality of life. They will get other powerful jobs or just retire and enjoy some quiet family life (ok, this would not happen, because they are often power hungry workaholics). Of course little people around the oil industry who has no other expertise than oil engineering or are common share holders might suffer a minor loss in short term. But on the other hand they do not have any means to influence to anything. If too good to be true E-Cat is there for real, it will open up absolutely huge new economic niche into market as ALL airplanes, locomotives, ships and trucks must be upgraded immediately, because oil driven technology is just too expensive to upkeep. This means that anyone who can produce any components for E-Cat steam engines, can have everything sold instantly and regardless of the price tag, because markets will suffer years to come because supply just is unable to match with demand. Therefore there is plenty of market potential even for oil companies and most of them are already moved in direction of general energy industry as everyone knows that peak oil will come sooner than later. ―Jouni
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
Among all the Millises and the Millses, I'd say Milli was practically born for this field. Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 27, 2011, at 16:04, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: See: http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/viareggio-cold-fusion-conference-science-politics-and-an-italian-competitor/ QUOTE: 19.10 – Among the public Milly Moratti takes the word and states that there are clearly now experimental evidences of Cold Fusion. Now, for the one who do not know, Milli Moratti is the wife of Massimo Moratti, one of the richest man in Italy and owner of the Saras Petrol Refinery, The biggest in Italy and one of the biggest in Europe. That’s a 5,3 Billion Euro Company. She has money and the political knowledge. [I have never heard of this person.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Moratti - Jed
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
IF my memory is correct, refiners are not huge profit centers and many have sold to others. Also environmental regulations have the potential to kill them. I am not sure if refiners are welcomed in Italy...or anywhere on the coast of the Mediterranean. So there is a very good chance that refiners may welcome to convert to cold fusion technology- for the economics of it. Respectfully, Ron Kita , Chiralex On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:12 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: Among all the Millises and the Millses, I'd say Milli was practically born for this field. Sent from my iPhone. On Jul 27, 2011, at 16:04, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: See: http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/viareggio-cold-fusion-conference-science-politics-and-an-italian-competitor/ QUOTE: 19.10 – Among the public Milly Moratti takes the word and states that there are clearly now experimental evidences of Cold Fusion. Now, for the one who do not know, Milli Moratti is the wife of Massimo Moratti, one of the richest man in Italy and owner of the Saras Petrol Refinery, The biggest in Italy and one of the biggest in Europe. That’s a 5,3 Billion Euro Company. She has money and the political knowledge. [I have never heard of this person.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Moratti - Jed
