Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Several others are working on independent ecat tests, and would be willing to collaborate, ecatbuilder.com and myself for starters. Other people floating around the scene. -DrowningTrout On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: I'm currently working on a design but have not yet started building. I'm going small as I do respect what could happen if I get a run away and can't shut it down quickly. I fully understand what others have said about Rossi when they saw the 18 hour test cell hit 123 kWs. I would not want to be anywhere near that cell if it really ran away. 123 kWs is a LOT of heat. Happy to discuss your ideas and needs. AG On 11/20/2011 3:14 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: Are you interested in building an ecat? You could help me. 2011/11/20 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto: aussieguy.ecat@gmail.**com aussieguy.e...@gmail.com Mary, I have a nice infinite COP device in my pocket to show you. I produces electricity from no known energy source. That is as long as you forget about the discovery of the photovoltaic effect in 1839. Ok, I agree that in 2011 the device will not meet your requirements. BUT in 1838 it would have. Same physics, just in 1838 we did not know that we knew in 1839. Today with LENR we have a different dog (PV effect / LENR) but with the same leg action (lack of understanding of why and how it works). AG
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Well I do hope he will sell a 100 kW plant to me. I do too. If you get a test schedule and you want my help, I'll go with you if the test terms are reasonable and you can provide your own equipment entirely except for the E-cat and the freq generator. If I'm involved, I can virtually guarantee you won't be bamboozled. Hell, I'd even split the cost with you if we could actually get a working E-cat, but I have no interest in tying up money in an escrow! And thanks for trying it. I think it's a brave move. Let us know what you hear.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Am 20.11.2011 02:28, schrieb Daniel Rocha: Suppose I can do it, just like Rossi claims. I dont want to have to leave home nor have to heat tons of water. What should I do? The problem is to make the energy visible. Heat a known amount of water in an open vaporizer. Let the steam go out of the window or do it under a cooker hood in the kitchen. Or: Melt a known amount of ice or wax.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
I'm happy to replicate the 6 Oct 2011 test setup. In fact I'll insist on it as then I know what to expect. I'll bring temp, water flow and power input monitoring equipment, plus the digital cro and the data logger. I'm not initially interested in self sustain mode but will insist on at least 24 hours or as long as I can stay awake powered mode measurements that show a min COP 6. I should be able to stay awake for at least 48 hours with good Italian Short Blacks. AG On 11/20/2011 8:02 PM, Peter Heckert wrote: Am 20.11.2011 02:28, schrieb Daniel Rocha: Suppose I can do it, just like Rossi claims. I dont want to have to leave home nor have to heat tons of water. What should I do? The problem is to make the energy visible. Heat a known amount of water in an open vaporizer. Let the steam go out of the window or do it under a cooker hood in the kitchen. Or: Melt a known amount of ice or wax.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 2:06 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: I'm happy to replicate the 6 Oct 2011 test setup. In fact I'll insist on it as then I know what to expect. I'll bring temp, water flow and power input monitoring equipment, plus the digital cro and the data logger. I'm not initially interested in self sustain mode but will insist on at least 24 hours or as long as I can stay awake powered mode measurements that show a min COP 6. I should be able to stay awake for at least 48 hours with good Italian Short Blacks. You should replicate Levi's February test method, using a simple liquid water (or glycol) coolant stream without making any steam. There is no way to know that the October 6 setup really measured the output heat correctly. I won't repeat all the reasons why or the possible corrections again.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
My understanding is the coolant did, in Feb, go around the single Door Knob style reactor core but it no longer does. IE the heat radiation fins and the 3 cores embedded in lead. I have no real issues using a heat exchanger as long as I get a real time digital readout of the water flow rate into my data logger. As for the 6 Oct measurements, I do accept the engineers who measure this stuff all the time saying the measurements were close enough. I have looked at the videos and the data collected. I agree with them. My delta T temp probe placements will be in the middle of the water stream, inside the water hoses but not touching the inside wall of the water hose. AG On 11/21/2011 2:48 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 2:06 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: I'm happy to replicate the 6 Oct 2011 test setup. In fact I'll insist on it as then I know what to expect. I'll bring temp, water flow and power input monitoring equipment, plus the digital cro and the data logger. I'm not initially interested in self sustain mode but will insist on at least 24 hours or as long as I can stay awake powered mode measurements that show a min COP 6. I should be able to stay awake for at least 48 hours with good Italian Short Blacks. You should replicate Levi's February test method, using a simple liquid water (or glycol) coolant stream without making any steam. There is no way to know that the October 6 setup really measured the output heat correctly. I won't repeat all the reasons why or the possible corrections again.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
OK, so I got a bit frustrated when the white flag was spit upon. I admit that and I am sorry. I guess I do not recall making a big deal about agents of Big Oil, since I do not think that they are keyed into the future yet. Reset that thought if you think it was one of my beliefs. We are in agreement that a calm, honest discussion of the facts would be useful and I will be happy to accommodate you with that. I have never been blindly following Mr. Rossi without seeking the truth. My analysis has always been about facts and will continue to be so. As I have stated before, I have come to many conclusions that a lot of Rossi supporters do not believe and I suspect that will continue to be true. I want to make one observation for you and others to consider. If the output power delivered during the test were in the range of 500 kW, then all of the vapor exiting toward the heat exchanger would be high quality. There would be little water collected within the trap set by the HVAC engineer and every measurement obtained during the October 28 test would fall into place. This match between theory and measured fact is not a coincidence and should stand under any honest scrutiny. The skeptic position is that very little if any of the water was vaporized. This is total non sense and will be easily dismissed when facing the real world conditions. I prefer to start with the most basic assumptions and then build upon them as we prove whether or not Rossi has a true system. Each proven point will lead to further proofs as the model advances. There is no way to skip the basics and come up with a complete, accurate picture. If we are to proceed, I suggest that a good starting point is to estimate the pressure within the steam output pipes. My first guess would be ~5 psi, but I am confident that we have some members of vortex who can obtain a more accurate calculation so I yield the floor to them. Dave -Original Message- From: Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Nov 20, 2011 2:25 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it? On Nov 20, 2011, at 0:52, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I made a good faith effort to explain the system to one of them to no avail. That particular one refused to discuss the operation of Rossi's 1 MW system in details point by point. It is apparent that he realized that his argument was being dismissed and ran for cover. Maybe he was afraid that he would have to accept the fact that Rossi's test was valid once his misconceptions were revealed. That's not what I saw. I saw you start with insults, then begin rational dialogue, get frustrated, and switch back to the insults. You didn't give the scientific discussion with Cude more than two days. I would like to see more scientific discussion. And also less dumb speculation about folks being paid agents of Big Oil.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:46 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I want to make one observation for you and others to consider. If the output power delivered during the test were in the range of 500 kW, then all of the vapor exiting toward the heat exchanger would be high quality. Agreed. There would be little water collected within the trap set by the HVAC engineer and every measurement obtained during the October 28 test would fall into place. The simple temperature measurement is consistent with high quality steam, and the little water collected is consistent with high quality steam. But the temperature as a function of time is *not* consistent with high quality steam produced as soon as boiling begins because that requires an implausible increase in power transfer (and corresponding discontinuous increase in temperature of a large thermal mass), and simultaneous turn-on of 107 ecats, exactly at the onset of boiling. That is not believable, and since the temperature measurement is also consistent with a scenario in which neither of those are necessary, that scenario is more likely. This match between theory and measured fact is not a coincidence and should stand under any honest scrutiny. It does not bear up under the scrutiny of the need for an 8-fold increase in power transfer, and simultaneous turn-on of 107 ecats. The skeptic position is that very little if any of the water was vaporized. This is total non sense and will be easily dismissed when facing the real world conditions. You have said this many times, but you have so far not supported it. The only argument against low vaporization is the absence of water collected in the trap, but that is not convincing because: (1) the valve to the trap appears to have been closed at 3:00, even though Rossi said it was open throughout. So that means we don't have any reason to believe it was open at all. (2) the trap is not placed at a low point (bottom of a U), so that it would not likely collect much separated fluid, even in annular flow. (3) a trap would be useless to collect liquid from a fast moving mist, and it is quite easy to generate a mist, even from low quality steam. Rossi could be using a nozzle of some sort at the output to each ecat, or a coil of narrow conduit would do it, or even an ultrasonic nebulizer. The point is, we don't know, and nothing was measured to verify that that trap would collect the liquid from low quality steam formed from the ecats. I prefer to start with the most basic assumptions and then build upon them as we prove whether or not Rossi has a true system. Each proven point will lead to further proofs as the model advances. We have very few actual measurements, and the ones we have are only according to Rossi and his engineer. For the calculation of output power, we have only input flow rate, temperature, and volume of liquid collected from what appears to be nothing more than a tee in the conduit. We will not have the luxury of generating proofs of anything based on that. To me, it's pretty simple. The measurements are strictly consistent with power output anywhere from 70 kW to 470 kW. The time dependence of the temperature during warm-up and boiling suggest strongly that the power was much closer to 70 kW for a considerable time after the onset of boiling. Since no further information is available after that, it is *possible* that the power was 70 kW throughout. It's also possible it increased gradually throughout the boiling period, but if you're looking for proof that it did, there is none. If we are to proceed, I suggest that a good starting point is to estimate the pressure within the steam output pipes. My first guess would be ~5 psi, but I am confident that we have some members of vortex who can obtain a more accurate calculation so I yield the floor to them. I don't see the point of this. If we agree that the output is at the boiling point of water, which seems reasonable given its stability, then the pressure can be looked up, and for a bp of 105C, that's about 1.2 bar or 17.5 psi (3 psi gauge). But the main thing is that if the temperature is at the boiling point, we have no independent measure of the degree of vaporization. It's the same temperature for 1% and for 99%.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Suppose I can do it, just like Rossi claims. I dont want to have to leave home nor have to heat tons of water. What should I do? Lomax had a really great idea: sell a kit whereby anyone could verify it at home. Better still, I like Dennis Cravens' idea of putting it in a car and driving across the country or on a race track indefinitely. Or, encase it in a cube and suspend it from a cable and light a hundred light bulbs with no ground connection. Come on, Daniel, be creative! ;-) T
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Suppose I can do it, just like Rossi claims. I dont want to have to leave home nor have to heat tons of water. What should I do? Lomax had a really great idea: sell a kit whereby anyone could verify it at home. Better still, I like Dennis Cravens' idea of putting it in a car and driving across the country or on a race track indefinitely. Or, encase it in a cube and suspend it from a cable and light a hundred light bulbs with no ground connection. Come on, Daniel, be creative! ;-) You could sell it to Starbucks. They have lots of money, they're ubiquitous all over the landscape and they needs tons and tons of hot water.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Sell, how? 2011/11/19 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Suppose I can do it, just like Rossi claims. I dont want to have to leave home nor have to heat tons of water. What should I do? Lomax had a really great idea: sell a kit whereby anyone could verify it at home. Better still, I like Dennis Cravens' idea of putting it in a car and driving across the country or on a race track indefinitely. Or, encase it in a cube and suspend it from a cable and light a hundred light bulbs with no ground connection. Come on, Daniel, be creative! ;-) You could sell it to Starbucks. They have lots of money, they're ubiquitous all over the landscape and they needs tons and tons of hot water.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Sell, how? Easy. Just call Starbuck's CEO and tell him they you can show them how to make all the coffee they want and heat all their stores for 1/100 or 1/1000 of their current energy costs. He'll either have you institutionalized as a nut or he'll buy it.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
I dont even have the money to build one! And I have no patent, there is nothing I can do about it. He would just rip me off. Would you work as my sales person, if I show to you that it works? 2011/11/19 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: Sell, how? Easy. Just call Starbuck's CEO and tell him they you can show them how to make all the coffee they want and heat all their stores for 1/100 or 1/1000 of their current energy costs. He'll either have you institutionalized as a nut or he'll buy it.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: I dont even have the money to build one! And I have no patent, there is nothing I can do about it. He would just rip me off. Would you work as my sales person, if I show to you that it works? Sure. Show me it works and I'll make you a zillionaire and it won't be difficult. That's why I have so much trouble understanding all the weirdness and reluctance surrounding Rossi.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Alright, although I am a little skeptic on how I could be a zillionaire without any kind of property protection (Id like to know if it ever happened). 2011/11/20 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: I dont even have the money to build one! And I have no patent, there is nothing I can do about it. He would just rip me off. Would you work as my sales person, if I show to you that it works? Sure. Show me it works and I'll make you a zillionaire and it won't be difficult. That's why I have so much trouble understanding all the weirdness and reluctance surrounding Rossi.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I dont even have the money to build one! And I have no patent, there is nothing I can do about it. . . . Sure. Show me it works and I'll make you a zillionaire and it won't be difficult. It would be very difficult. If you have no patent, anyone is free to take the idea from you. If you know of a way to make money with an idea that anyone is free to use without paying, please tell us what that is. That's why I have so much trouble understanding all the weirdness and reluctance surrounding Rossi. It is not weird at all. He has no patent protection. Anyone in business would be reluctant to reveal the idea or encourage competition in his position. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
If I were designing a public demonstration of LENR, I would make a: LENR-gizer Bunny that keeps going, and going... (with an empty battery compartment, of course)
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I dont even have the money to build one! And I have no patent, there is nothing I can do about it. . . . Sure. Show me it works and I'll make you a zillionaire and it won't be difficult. It would be very difficult. If you have no patent, anyone is free to take the idea from you. If you know of a way to make money with an idea that anyone is free to use without paying, please tell us what that is. That's why I have so much trouble understanding all the weirdness and reluctance surrounding Rossi. - It is not weird at all. He has no patent protection. Anyone in business would be reluctant to reveal the idea or encourage competition in his position. What Rossi could do would be twofold. First, ally himself with some deep pockets. Given a convincing demo in the course of a due diligence examination, that should be easy. A lot of comparatively humanitarian wealthy people would love to have more money to control and perhaps donate. I can name a half dozen without too much thinking and so can you. And there'd be more than plenty left over for Rossi. Second, he should file a PROPER patent application including disclosure and then start selling the devices. Then, if someone infringes, he sues them. All sorts of suits like this in the past have succeeded -- some big time and against huge companies for example the classic suit against GM about wind shield wiper intermittent circuits which was made into an interesting movie. What we're supposed to believe is that Rossi's selling E-cats now to some unnamed military and some unnamed client with the totally inadequate patent filings he's made. That is really dangerous to his IP. Anyway, proving that his device is real and/or having independent testing as a black box involves no risk to his IP at all. Universities handle classified research without leaks all the time -- it's routine. So wrong about the patent and wrong about the risk and Rossi's risk, if he really sold 14 machines anyway, could not be bigger.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
I didn't say that... Anyway, I am happy now that MY will help me become rich, if I give her the instructions on how to make a device, even without patent protection. She is going to make and test the devices. I think she may take a few thousand of her $100,000.00 prize for someone who can drive a water car. 2011/11/20 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com That's why I have so much trouble understanding all the weirdness and reluctance surrounding Rossi. It is not weird at all. He has no patent protection. Anyone in business would be reluctant to reveal the idea or encourage competition in his position. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:03 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't say that... Anyway, I am happy now that MY will help me become rich, if I give her the instructions on how to make a device, even without patent protection. She is going to make and test the devices. I think she may take a few thousand of her $100,000.00 prize for someone who can drive a water car. I didn't say anything about doing anything without patent protection. If you have a robust device which works, a good attorney and some money, there will no problem at all getting patent protection. I said nothing about making the devices. I would be delighted, however, to help you test them. After 6+ months of discussion, I know exactly how and it would be a lot clearer and surer by far than anything Rossi has even come close to doing. And it would cheap, would not disclose secrets and could be done in a few weeks. And there would be no problem with stored energy because the run would be plenty long and no problem with quality of steam because it would not be used at all. I am shocked nobody took me up on the HHO car. There are dozens if not hundreds of sites which include testimonials from users who routinely get 100+ miles per gallon with such diverse cars as Honda Accords and even antique Oldsmobile V8 engines with four barrel carburetors. Just send them $1000 - $2000 for a kit and go. But you just can't get someone to demonstrate one under proper observing conditions with reliable instruments. Not for $100K. I suspect it's even more elusive than Rossi's 35 kW heater or his customer. Ooops. If that's too sarcastic or aggressive, please consider it withdrawn. But also consider that all of Daniel's posts in this string were pure bait.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On 11/20/2011 2:30 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: What Rossi could do would be twofold. First, ally himself with some deep pockets. Deep pockets? How much deeper can you get but the military? Who Rossi now claims bought the first and the next 13 x 1 MW E-Cat plants. I doubt the military would wish to see Rossi's trade secrets becoming public knowledge. They can easily take control of any patent Rossi has or will have. Given a convincing demo in the course of a due diligence examination, that should be easy. I suggest he did that on 28 Oct 2011 via the test conducted by the NATO Colonel. AG
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
I am really serious, I am not bating you. I said I do not have the money to develop anything, so I will have to do it the way of open source. It is public doman from the start. I come up with the idea and then someone might help me someday build the thing. You will have to help me become rich since you are the sales person. 2011/11/20 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com But also consider that all of Daniel's posts in this string were pure bait.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: I am really serious, I am not bating you. I said I do not have the money to develop anything, so I will have to do it the way of open source. It is public doman from the start. I come up with the idea and then someone might help me someday build the thing. You will have to help me become rich since you are the sales person. OK, so you say. If you come up with something, I would be more than delighted to help you test it so nobody with an IQ 10 can deny it's real. And I can find you a Daddy Warbucks too if you need one. But please, first make something that makes a decent COP with acceptable power input or better yet no power in at all. And make sure it runs a few weeks with very little overall volume and using only tiny amount of fuel. Then, we'll talk. I'll gladly give up my anonymity if you have something like that in your pocket.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
OK, deal :) 2011/11/20 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com OK, so you say. If you come up with something, I would be more than delighted to help you test it so nobody with an IQ 10 can deny it's real. And I can find you a Daddy Warbucks too if you need one. But please, first make something that makes a decent COP with acceptable power input or better yet no power in at all. And make sure it runs a few weeks with very little overall volume and using only tiny amount of fuel. Then, we'll talk. I'll gladly give up my anonymity if you have something like that in your pocket.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: On 11/20/2011 2:30 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: What Rossi could do would be twofold. First, ally himself with some deep pockets. Deep pockets? How much deeper can you get but the military? I agree. If the military bought it and repeated the buy, I'd believe it's real. The military isn't reliable for due diligence the first time around. The US military bought $8K worth of Sniffex explosive detectors to test even though they are dowsing rods. And the Iraqi military bought $60 million's worth until it became an international scandal resulting in several arrests. But if the US military bought it and liked it, I'd be convinced. The problem is that there is not a shred of evidence to lead anyone to believe that any military bought anything from Rossi. If you have some, please share it. Who Rossi now claims bought the first and the next 13 x 1 MW E-Cat plants. I doubt the military would wish to see Rossi's trade secrets becoming public knowledge. They can easily take control of any patent Rossi has or will have. I suppose the military can temporarily suppress patents where release would affect national security in a profound way but I think the history of it is that it's not a possibility that has been used very much and when it has, it was brief. Given a convincing demo in the course of a due diligence examination, that should be easy. I suggest he did that on 28 Oct 2011 via the test conducted by the NATO Colonel. Oh my. You fell for that claim line, hook and sinker. How do you know the Italian dude with the mustache (Fioravanti was it?) was a NATO colonel exactly? Have you seen his military ID? And if he was such a person, especially but not necessarily retired, could he not still be also on Rossi's payroll for a little while?
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: OK, deal :) Deal. Sorry but I can't help you build it. I'm all thumbs in a machine shop. Positively dangerous.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: OK, deal :) Don't trust Mary. I know her. She won't do a deal until it's self running. T
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Alright, you get someone you trust to replicate. No worries. 2011/11/20 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: OK, deal :) Deal. Sorry but I can't help you build it. I'm all thumbs in a machine shop. Positively dangerous.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Mary, I have a nice infinite COP device in my pocket to show you. I produces electricity from no known energy source. That is as long as you forget about the discovery of the photovoltaic effect in 1839. Ok, I agree that in 2011 the device will not meet your requirements. BUT in 1838 it would have. Same physics, just in 1838 we did not know that we knew in 1839. Today with LENR we have a different dog (PV effect / LENR) but with the same leg action (lack of understanding of why and how it works). AG On 11/20/2011 3:02 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: OK, deal :) 2011/11/20 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com OK, so you say. If you come up with something, I would be more than delighted to help you test it so nobody with an IQ 10 can deny it's real. And I can find you a Daddy Warbucks too if you need one. But please, first make something that makes a decent COP with acceptable power input or better yet no power in at all. And make sure it runs a few weeks with very little overall volume and using only tiny amount of fuel. Then, we'll talk. I'll gladly give up my anonymity if you have something like that in your pocket.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 11:39 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Deal. Sorry but I can't help you build it. I'm all thumbs in a machine shop. Positively dangerous. She's serious. All fingers have been milled to zero. T
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Well, she didn't say self running, but a big COP. That's fine. 2011/11/20 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: OK, deal :) Don't trust Mary. I know her. She won't do a deal until it's self running. T
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Are you interested in building an ecat? You could help me. 2011/11/20 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com Mary, I have a nice infinite COP device in my pocket to show you. I produces electricity from no known energy source. That is as long as you forget about the discovery of the photovoltaic effect in 1839. Ok, I agree that in 2011 the device will not meet your requirements. BUT in 1838 it would have. Same physics, just in 1838 we did not know that we knew in 1839. Today with LENR we have a different dog (PV effect / LENR) but with the same leg action (lack of understanding of why and how it works). AG On 11/20/2011 3:02 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: OK, deal :) 2011/11/20 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com OK, so you say. If you come up with something, I would be more than delighted to help you test it so nobody with an IQ 10 can deny it's real. And I can find you a Daddy Warbucks too if you need one. But please, first make something that makes a decent COP with acceptable power input or better yet no power in at all. And make sure it runs a few weeks with very little overall volume and using only tiny amount of fuel. Then, we'll talk. I'll gladly give up my anonymity if you have something like that in your pocket.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
All you have are your straw man argument. Where is your proof that the colonel was not who Rossi said he was and that Rossi lied when he recently said the original purchaser was military and has now purchased a further 13 x 1MW plants. With Rossi we have photos of hardware, videos, data, first hand reports, peoples names, history of other tests, etc. With you all we have is an internet alias and your straw man claims. AG On 11/20/2011 3:06 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/20/2011 2:30 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: What Rossi could do would be twofold. First, ally himself with some deep pockets. Deep pockets? How much deeper can you get but the military? I agree. If the military bought it and repeated the buy, I'd believe it's real. The military isn't reliable for due diligence the first time around. The US military bought $8K worth of Sniffex explosive detectors to test even though they are dowsing rods. And the Iraqi military bought $60 million's worth until it became an international scandal resulting in several arrests. But if the US military bought it and liked it, I'd be convinced. The problem is that there is not a shred of evidence to lead anyone to believe that any military bought anything from Rossi. If you have some, please share it. Who Rossi now claims bought the first and the next 13 x 1 MW E-Cat plants. I doubt the military would wish to see Rossi's trade secrets becoming public knowledge. They can easily take control of any patent Rossi has or will have. I suppose the military can temporarily suppress patents where release would affect national security in a profound way but I think the history of it is that it's not a possibility that has been used very much and when it has, it was brief. Given a convincing demo in the course of a due diligence examination, that should be easy. I suggest he did that on 28 Oct 2011 via the test conducted by the NATO Colonel. Oh my. You fell for that claim line, hook and sinker. How do you know the Italian dude with the mustache (Fioravanti was it?) was a NATO colonel exactly? Have you seen his military ID? And if he was such a person, especially but not necessarily retired, could he not still be also on Rossi's payroll for a little while?
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
I'm currently working on a design but have not yet started building. I'm going small as I do respect what could happen if I get a run away and can't shut it down quickly. I fully understand what others have said about Rossi when they saw the 18 hour test cell hit 123 kWs. I would not want to be anywhere near that cell if it really ran away. 123 kWs is a LOT of heat. Happy to discuss your ideas and needs. AG On 11/20/2011 3:14 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: Are you interested in building an ecat? You could help me. 2011/11/20 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com Mary, I have a nice infinite COP device in my pocket to show you. I produces electricity from no known energy source. That is as long as you forget about the discovery of the photovoltaic effect in 1839. Ok, I agree that in 2011 the device will not meet your requirements. BUT in 1838 it would have. Same physics, just in 1838 we did not know that we knew in 1839. Today with LENR we have a different dog (PV effect / LENR) but with the same leg action (lack of understanding of why and how it works). AG
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: All you have are your straw man argument. Where is your proof that the colonel was not who Rossi said he was and that Rossi lied when he recently said the original purchaser was military and has now purchased a further 13 x 1MW plants. Ah. It's the person making the claim that needs to provide the proof. Rossi is making the claims. I am only asking some relevant questions. Rossi has a poor track record with two previous tech failures and some say, criminal activity. Also he was convicted -- I know he debates the merit of the charges. But that's enough that I won't believe that he has an anonymous client without the ability to check and his next 13 sales are equally uncheckable. With Rossi we have photos of hardware, videos, data, first hand reports, peoples names, history of other tests, etc. I don't find the evidence you cite adequate to prove that Rossi's device works by cold fusion and is in fact a nuclear reactor. But I won't rehash why again -- out of compassion for the other readers. With you all we have is an internet alias and your straw man claims. All you have is an internet alias with many people. It isn't convenient to verify anyone's identity on an email list, Aussie Guy E-cat. I don't suppose that's your real name, is it? Anyway it's irrelevant who I am because I am not saying anything I ask you to believe because I say it. Rossi is. And we know his record. Straw man claims? Which ones exactly are those? If you have proof that Rossi has a client and that the colonel works for that client and that Rossi has sold 13 plants to some military, I'm happy to look at it. If not, I maintain you don't know that it is a fact.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Proof? Rossi and his agents are taking orders. No money paid until delivery and your engineers have certified it meets the agreed claims. The only scam is in your straw man statements. You claim to have money or access to money. All you need do is to place an order (Rossi has said he will go down to a 100 kW plant, so USD200k is all you need to come up with) and report to all the world how that process goes. But do you do that? Apparently not as it seems you enjoy playing at being a straw man on just about every E-Cat discussion forum on the net (which begs the question, is there more than one Mary Yugo straw man on the net?), instead of putting your money where you mouth is and engaging the process of ordering a thermal plant from Rossi. AG On 11/20/2011 3:34 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: All you have are your straw man argument. Where is your proof that the colonel was not who Rossi said he was and that Rossi lied when he recently said the original purchaser was military and has now purchased a further 13 x 1MW plants. Ah. It's the person making the claim that needs to provide the proof. Rossi is making the claims. I am only asking some relevant questions. Rossi has a poor track record with two previous tech failures and some say, criminal activity. Also he was convicted -- I know he debates the merit of the charges. But that's enough that I won't believe that he has an anonymous client without the ability to check and his next 13 sales are equally uncheckable. With Rossi we have photos of hardware, videos, data, first hand reports, peoples names, history of other tests, etc. I don't find the evidence you cite adequate to prove that Rossi's device works by cold fusion and is in fact a nuclear reactor. But I won't rehash why again -- out of compassion for the other readers. With you all we have is an internet alias and your straw man claims. All you have is an internet alias with many people. It isn't convenient to verify anyone's identity on an email list, Aussie Guy E-cat. I don't suppose that's your real name, is it? Anyway it's irrelevant who I am because I am not saying anything I ask you to believe because I say it. Rossi is. And we know his record. Straw man claims? Which ones exactly are those? If you have proof that Rossi has a client and that the colonel works for that client and that Rossi has sold 13 plants to some military, I'm happy to look at it. If not, I maintain you don't know that it is a fact.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
It is apparent that this list is being disrupted by several characters who do nothing but make false arguments. As you realize, they do not make contributions that are helpful. We would be wise to totally ignore their posts and I plan to do so. It is unfortunate that they would dedicate so much time and effort to this means. I made a good faith effort to explain the system to one of them to no avail. That particular one refused to discuss the operation of Rossi's 1 MW system in details point by point. It is apparent that he realized that his argument was being dismissed and ran for cover. Maybe he was afraid that he would have to accept the fact that Rossi's test was valid once his misconceptions were revealed. Dave -Original Message- From: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Nov 20, 2011 12:21 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it? Proof? Rossi and his agents are taking orders. No money paid until elivery and your engineers have certified it meets the agreed claims. he only scam is in your straw man statements. You claim to have money r access to money. All you need do is to place an order (Rossi has said e will go down to a 100 kW plant, so USD200k is all you need to come up ith) and report to all the world how that process goes. But do you do hat? Apparently not as it seems you enjoy playing at being a straw man n just about every E-Cat discussion forum on the net (which begs the uestion, is there more than one Mary Yugo straw man on the net?), nstead of putting your money where you mouth is and engaging the rocess of ordering a thermal plant from Rossi. AG n 11/20/2011 3:34 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: All you have are your straw man argument. Where is your proof that the colonel was not who Rossi said he was and that Rossi lied when he recently said the original purchaser was military and has now purchased a further 13 x 1MW plants. Ah. It's the person making the claim that needs to provide the proof. Rossi is making the claims. I am only asking some relevant questions. Rossi has a poor track record with two previous tech failures and some say, criminal activity. Also he was convicted -- I know he debates the merit of the charges. But that's enough that I won't believe that he has an anonymous client without the ability to check and his next 13 sales are equally uncheckable. With Rossi we have photos of hardware, videos, data, first hand reports, peoples names, history of other tests, etc. I don't find the evidence you cite adequate to prove that Rossi's device works by cold fusion and is in fact a nuclear reactor. But I won't rehash why again -- out of compassion for the other readers. With you all we have is an internet alias and your straw man claims. All you have is an internet alias with many people. It isn't convenient to verify anyone's identity on an email list, Aussie Guy E-cat. I don't suppose that's your real name, is it? Anyway it's irrelevant who I am because I am not saying anything I ask you to believe because I say it. Rossi is. And we know his record. Straw man claims? Which ones exactly are those? If you have proof that Rossi has a client and that the colonel works for that client and that Rossi has sold 13 plants to some military, I'm happy to look at it. If not, I maintain you don't know that it is a fact.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 11:52 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I made a good faith effort to explain the system to one of them to no avail. That particular one refused to discuss the operation of Rossi's 1 MW system in details point by point. It is apparent that he realized that his argument was being dismissed and ran for cover. Maybe he was afraid that he would have to accept the fact that Rossi's test was valid once his misconceptions were revealed. You've got this exactly reversed. I replied to your last post point by point, and *you* ignored the arguments, possibly fearing you would have to accept that the evidence did not support Rossi's claims.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Rossi said he'd sell to anybody except the military. On Nov 19, 2011, at 23:17, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/20/2011 2:30 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: What Rossi could do would be twofold. First, ally himself with some deep pockets. Deep pockets? How much deeper can you get but the military? Who Rossi now claims bought the first and the next 13 x 1 MW E-Cat plants.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
On Nov 20, 2011, at 0:52, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I made a good faith effort to explain the system to one of them to no avail. That particular one refused to discuss the operation of Rossi's 1 MW system in details point by point. It is apparent that he realized that his argument was being dismissed and ran for cover. Maybe he was afraid that he would have to accept the fact that Rossi's test was valid once his misconceptions were revealed. That's not what I saw. I saw you start with insults, then begin rational dialogue, get frustrated, and switch back to the insults. You didn't give the scientific discussion with Cude more than two days. I would like to see more scientific discussion. And also less dumb speculation about folks being paid agents of Big Oil.
Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?
Well I do hope he will sell a 100 kW plant to me. AG On 11/20/2011 5:39 PM, Charles Hope wrote: Rossi said he'd sell to anybody except the military. On Nov 19, 2011, at 23:17, Aussie Guy E-Cataussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/20/2011 2:30 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: What Rossi could do would be twofold. First, ally himself with some deep pockets. Deep pockets? How much deeper can you get but the military? Who Rossi now claims bought the first and the next 13 x 1 MW E-Cat plants.
