Re: [Vo]:Test

[Jonathan Berry]

Real, the car accelerates to a greater speed, and the end point is below
the starting point.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 19:02, Frank Grimer <88.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg
>
> Two cars.
>
> Green low road car arrives first.
>
> Real or Fake.
>
> Please explain your choice.
>
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 07:55, Frank Grimer <88.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Jones Beene]

 Frank 

The effect is an interesting phenomenon even if the tendency is to overlook 
rolling resistance and friction. But the problem for the average observer - the 
problem with any metaphor or model for LENR - after all these years, is simple. 
No commercial device.
Not just no commercial device on the marketplace but little that is truly novel 
on the horizon. No toy or demo. At least the video makers with the carts have a 
commercial demo, 

Look at recent conferences. The lesson seems to be that the cost of attendance 
is inversely proportional to real technological advancement


Frank Grimer wrote:  
To me it is a metaphor for catalysis... One half of component A drops down the 
field pressure gradient to the low road and speeds up.The other half dawdles 
along the surface. They both meet up at B and complete their reaction.The 
reaction speed for the low road is therefore much faster than the reaction 
speed for the high road.
Now in this case the field is gravity. In chemical catalysis it is 
Beta-atmosphere.

In my research on clays I showed that specimens compacted from clay particle 
aggregations had a higher strength, ergo higher pF, for smaller aggregations 
than for larger aggregations.
Now one of Mizuno's experiments involved a palladium specimen compacted from 
grains of the metal. The heat generated started running away. Fearing an 
explosion he stopped it.
I read somewhere that he has since had specimens which put in a bath generate 
large amounts of steam, far too much to be the result of chemical reaction.

  
  

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Frank Grimer]

Thanks Jones.
To me it is a metaphor for catalysis.
One half of component A drops down the field pressure gradient to the low
road and speeds up.
The other half dawdles along the surface.
They both meet up at B and complete their reaction.
The reaction speed for the low road is therefore much faster than the
reaction speed for the high road.
Now in this case the field is gravity.
In chemical catalysis it is Beta-atmosphere.

In my research on clays I showed that specimens compacted from clay
particle aggregations had a higher strength, ergo higher pF, for smaller
aggregations than for larger aggregations.

Now one of Mizuno's experiments involved a palladium specimen compacted
from grains of the metal. The heat generated started running away. Fearing
an explosion he stopped it.

I read somewhere that he has since had specimens which put in a bath
generate large amounts of steam, far too much to be the result of chemical
reaction.

To an unprejudiced observer he has succeeded in finding the holy grail of
Cold Fusion. It seems to me that the only way prejudice will be overcome is
to develop the system commercially. Eventually the skeptics will be forced
to overcome their cognitive dissonance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXuI2oZFwBc



On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 14:34, Jones Beene  wrote:

> This similar vid is even a bit more "fake" in terms of expectation
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvlmdPLMQM4
>
> The more general phenomenon seems to be called the Brachistochrome Problem
>
> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Brac
>
> Jones
>
>
> Frank Grimer wrote:
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg
>
> Two cars.
>
> Green low road car arrives first.
>
> Real or Fake.
>
> Please explain your choice.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Frank Grimer]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachistochrone_curve

That's rightBut to less "with it " people in some forums it seems a
terrible enigma. :-)

The trouble with the maths is that it kills all vestige of the real world
and prevents one seeing the demo in a different light. For example an
analogue to Cold Fusion via catalysis.

Years ago I got into correspondence with a couple of chemists, Gankin,V,Y.
and Gankin Y.V. on the subject of catalysis. They reckoned that people
didn't really understand it and so it was pretty empirical.
They sent me a hardback copy of their latest book and asked me to review
it. As an Engineer I felt I wasn't up to the task and declined.

Now I see the trolly (chemical) as dropping dawn a pressure gravity
gamma-atmosphere,  increasing speed and coming back up to complete the
reaction. The trolley reaction on the surface proceeds more slowly.

The pressure drop can reach pF6 for water.

pF scale
> pF is a log scale for representing soil matric potential. Thus,
> (17.1)   pF =  log10(-100y)
> where y is the matric potential in metres of water. Notice that y is
> always negative under unsaturated conditions.
> For example, if your measured wilting point is -15 bar (-152.96 m water),
> then the pF value is 4.2.


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYGNoZVrsxQ


Catalysis is essentially speeding up a reaction by dropping down
field pressure gradients. If things remain on the surface then
the reaction is slow - like the yellow car.

I have shown that for water there is a hierarchy of three pressure
fields (see Prof, Chapin's web site).. In a material like Palladium there
must be dozens. These pressure fields can be manipulated by processing. I
have shown that for clays.

The Effect of Pulverization on the Quality of Clay-cement Influence du
> Degré de Pulvérisation de l’Argile sur la Qualité du Sol-ciment by F. J. G
> r im e r , B.Sc . and N . F. Ross, B.Sc., Road Research Laboratory,
> Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, H arm ondsw orth,
> Middlesex, England


Mizuno processed his palladium and got a runaway reaction which he had to
close down . He "tickled the dragon".

To my mind that was clearly cold fusion. No one appreciates it because they
have the wrong model of material behaviour.  The right model involves
humongous cognitive dissonance for acceptance in the chemical field - let
alone by the hot fusioneers.
As frequently happens in science, advance has to come from the outside.




On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 14:34, Jones Beene  wrote:

> This similar vid is even a bit more "fake" in terms of expectation
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvlmdPLMQM4
>
> The more general phenomenon seems to be called the Brachistochrome Problem
>
> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Brac
>
> Jones
>
>
> Frank Grimer wrote:
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg
>
> Two cars.
>
> Green low road car arrives first.
>
> Real or Fake.
>
> Please explain your choice.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Jones Beene]

This similar vid is even a bit more "fake" in terms of expectation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvlmdPLMQM4
The more general phenomenon seems to be called the Brachistochrome Problem 

https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Brac
Jones


Frank Grimer wrote:  
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg

Two cars.

Green low road car arrives first.

Real or Fake.

Please explain your choice.





  

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Frank Grimer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg

Two cars.

Green low road car arrives first.

Real or Fake.

Please explain your choice.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 07:55, Frank Grimer <88.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test of heading

[Jones Beene]

 No text

Frank Grimer wrote:  
 
 Test of text  

Re: [Vo]:Test mx1

[Terry Blanton]

Watch out where the huskies go
And don't you eat that yellow snow.

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:07 AM  wrote:
>
> Testing from mx1
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[Jed Rothwell]

Working now. There was a glitch yesterday.

RE: [Vo]:test

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

I received Beaty test.

Bob Cook

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10


From: leaking pen 
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 9:24:59 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: [Vo]:test

didnt get it. sorry.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:14 PM William Beaty 
mailto:bi...@eskimo.com>> wrote:
test

Re: [Vo]:test

[leaking pen]

didnt get it. sorry.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:14 PM William Beaty  wrote:

> test
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Teslaalset]

Thanks Jed!
This was indeed an automated spamfilter change causing the problem.
I'll keep an eye on the spambox more often now.
Good you sent me a response to my private mail address too, otherwise it
would have taken me longer to find out.



On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
 messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have
 a filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:

 *This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.*

 (Your message said that too.)


 Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
 This is a reflector test

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Jed Rothwell]

Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have
a filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:

*This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.*

(Your message said that too.)


Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote:

Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
 This is a reflector test

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Daniel Rocha]

Wow, same here! :O

2014-04-23 9:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com:
 Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
 messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have a
 filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:

 This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.

 (Your message said that too.)


 Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
 This is a reflector test





-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

RE: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Jones Beene]

This happened to me recently.

The solution that worked for me is to re-subscribe. 

To subscribe, send a *blank* message to:
vortex-l-requ...@eskimo.com

Put the single word subscribe in the subject line of the header.  NOTHING 
else!

No quotes around subscribe, of course. 


-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha 

Wow, same here! :O

2014-04-23 9:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com:
 Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
 messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have a
 filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:

 This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.

 (Your message said that too.)


 Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
 This is a reflector test





-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Michele Comitini]

Confirmed here too!  gmail has put vortex-l on the spam-list! I
suppose that a number marking vortex-l messages as NOT SPAM
would help the filter bot change its mind...

2014-04-23 16:16 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net:
 This happened to me recently.

 The solution that worked for me is to re-subscribe.

 To subscribe, send a *blank* message to:
 vortex-l-requ...@eskimo.com

 Put the single word subscribe in the subject line of the header.  NOTHING 
 else!

 No quotes around subscribe, of course.


 -Original Message-
 From: Daniel Rocha

 Wow, same here! :O

 2014-04-23 9:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com:
 Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
 messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have a
 filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:

 This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.

 (Your message said that too.)


 Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
 This is a reflector test





 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Jed Rothwell]

Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote:

Confirmed here too!  gmail has put vortex-l on the spam-list!


It is not just Vortex messages. I think the filter is being triggered by
unusually short messages. Other short messages from various people have
been marked as Spam lately. Google must have tweaked their spam detection
software lately. They went overboard, filtering out too many messages. They
will probably fix the problem soon.

As you say, it will help if people mark messages as not spam.

I have had problems with short messages generated by hacked g-mail accounts
that begin with messages such as: Hi! How are you? People say it works . .
. with a link to a web site that steals your e-mail log on. I have gotten
4 or 5 of these, including one from someone who is long dead. I told his
relatives to close down the account. I suppose the hackers have access to
all of his e-mail.

G-mail correctly identifies these messages. It says:

*Be careful with this message. *It contains content that's typically used
to steal personal information. Learn
morehttp://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=1074268ctx=mail

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Test - Pinging Vortex

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Vortex let this go through. But then it clamped down again.

 

I still can't post a new subject thread. This is weird.

 

Steve

 

From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net] 
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 10:32 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Test - Pinging Vortex

 

Pinging vortex.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

svjart.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[H Veeder]

:-)
You never know what people will find useful.

Harry


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 11:07 AM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote:

 Thanks H Veeder.  These characters do text in Kindle while the font symbol
 does not.  I updated my e book with these symbols and removed words like
 omega.

  Frank





 θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ

  Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ

  Harry

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[fznidarsic]

The one that is giving me trouble is phi a circle with a line though it.  This 
is what Greek has:



φ  Φ




They are not quite right.  Here it is in symbol 


font.


Φ




Frank

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[John Berry]

The second phi is the same as the 3rd symbol font phi in chrome.


On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 7:20 AM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote:

 The one that is giving me trouble is phi a circle with a line though it.
  This is what Greek has:

  φ  Φ



 They are not quite right.  Here it is in symbol


 font.


 Φ



 Frank

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[fznidarsic]

Thanks H Veeder.  These characters do text in Kindle while the font symbol does 
not.  I updated my e book with these symbols and removed words like omega.


Frank







θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ


Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ


Harry

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Daniel Rocha]

Try this one. It's classical greek, a very interesting text from Socrates.
So, you may test the abilities of google translate :)

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Μωυσῆς ῞Ινα τί ἐζωγρήσατε πᾶν θῆλυ;

αὗται γὰρ ἦσαν τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμα Βαλααμ τοῦ ἀποστῆσαι καὶ
ὑπεριδεῖν τὸ ῥῆμα κυρίου ἕνεκεν Φογωρ, καὶ ἐγένετο ἡ πληγὴ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ
κυρίου.


καὶ νῦν ἀποκτείνατε πᾶν ἀρσενικὸν ἐν πάσῃ τῇ ἀπαρτίᾳ, καὶ πᾶσαν γυναῖκα,
ἥτις ἔγνωκεν κοίτην ἄρσενος, ἀποκτείνατε·


πᾶσαν τὴν ἀπαρτίαν τῶν γυναικῶν, ἥτις οὐκ οἶδεν κοίτην ἄρσενος, ζωγρήσατε
αὐτάς.


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Jim Dickenson]

Still Greek...in Chrome on XP SP3.


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:36 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted into
 this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.

 The characters come from this site

 http://greek.typeit.org/


 θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ

 Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ

 Harry

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Nigel Dyer]

I get greek: running thunderbird on windows 7

Nigel

On 16/02/2014 06:36, H Veeder wrote:
This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted 
into this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.


The characters come from this site

http://greek.typeit.org/


θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ

Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ

Harry

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[John Berry]

And on Chrome.


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 11:29 PM, Nigel Dyer l...@thedyers.org.uk wrote:

 I get greek: running thunderbird on windows 7

 Nigel


 On 16/02/2014 06:36, H Veeder wrote:

 This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted into
 this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.

 The characters come from this site

 http://greek.typeit.org/


 θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ

 Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ

 Harry

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[fznidarsic]

This has been an enigma for me.  There are Greek letters in the font symbol and 
just plain Greek letters.  I could never quite figure out what the difference 
is.  Kindle does not text symbol characters.  That's been a problem.  I will 
try these.


Frank

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Alain Sepeda]

perfect greek. now I wait for news in greek ;-)

any one for news in chinese (old news)

近日，国家低碳能源规划研究院院长
、高灵能源投资股份有限公司总裁戴思嘉在东钓鱼台‘星湖园温泉庄园’会见了美国切诺基基金联合主席托马斯·达顿，双方就美国方面的镍发电能源技术问题，进行了系统的交流磋商，就共同合作推进这一革命性的能源技术达成了一致认识。国家发改委和国务院国资委以及国家能源局的有关领导一同参加了会见。



在全球能源紧缺的背景下，新型能源的发展正方兴继涌。而处于镍反应终试阶段的报告显示，低温镍反应发电技术是当前成本最低且原材料资源较为丰富的发电技术。试验同时显示，镍能发电除了在经济成本方面有着非常好的前景，在环境保护领域也有着得天独厚的巨大优势。在镍反应过程中，不会有任何温室气体及其他污染物排放，不会产生放射性材料，亦无需煤炭或石油等化石能源。


(if someone can translate better than google ;-)


2014-02-16 7:36 GMT+01:00 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com:

 This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted into
 this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.

 The characters come from this site

 http://greek.typeit.org/


 θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ

 Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ

 Harry

Re: [Vo]:Test Message

[Jed Rothwell]

Mason Ainsworth lenr_belie...@hotmail.com wrote:


 Please respond if you don't get this.[image: Emoji]


How can you respond if you do not get something?! Raise your hand if you
absent from class.

Perhaps you refer to the emoji (絵文字). That did not come through. This is a
primitive mailing list. ASCII only. We do not acknowledge the 21st Century.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Test Message

[Mason Ainsworth]

You passed the somewhat off-beat test. And, arguably all others did as well 
when they did not respond. (They just acted at a level not exemplified by 
Koans.)

 . . . this primitive mailing list may not acknowledge the 21st century. But it 
still allows us to use a transformational technology generally recognized as 
being invented about 3200 BCE concerning a technology hopefully reaching the 
stage of practical implementation 'relatively' soon.

It will work for me.

Mason

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 21:29:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test Message
From: jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

Mason Ainsworth lenr_belie...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
Please respond if you don't get this. 

How can you respond if you do not get something?! Raise your hand if you 
absent from class.
Perhaps you refer to the emoji (絵文字). That did not come through. This is a 
primitive mailing list. ASCII only. We do not acknowledge the 21st Century.

- Jed
  

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Roarty, Francis X]

I think the rate of new demos and infrastructure will soon uncover the smoking 
gun, The cork is off the bottle and the genie is already making its presence 
known in more and more labs.. give it a few more months and a couple more 
competitors to announce their claims.. it is the nature of competition now that 
is forcing each new demonstration to reveal more than the previous. Governments 
are equally on the spot trying to dissuade 3rd world nations and even our own 
populace from realizing the potential while having already accumulated the 
technology in secret... should be interesting when corporations harboring top 
secret IP see the competition trying to patent their existing but secret 
technology Pressure is building and I note so is the stock market. .. LMT 
up 39%/12 mos , BA 48%/12 mos ..something is going on! Those kinds of gains 
don't normally persist over a 12 month period.. bull market or no I don't think 
these gains are going to retract and am keeping my money in company stock 
Fingers crossed that these tech corps are planning to exploit their secret IP 
as LENR makes public more and more of what many of us suspect is presently 
hidden under black budget projects.
Fran

From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of 
Alain Sepeda
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 5:41 PM
To: Vortex List
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

it seems National instruments asked such doublinded test in 2012, according to 
the conference of Concezz in Rome (and Brussels)...

about industrial claims, there is similar concern, not of doubleblind, but 
because of suspected fraud by testers.
One big fear of industrialist is when the tester organization is fair like 
MIT/Harwell/caltech and sabotage the test in public.
It is a real problem, since simple honest and open scientist are typically 
suspected of beinf friendly with LENR, like Essen have been with Elforsk test.
It is like the peer-review process, which is accused of being corrupted if 
LMENR paper are commonly accepted in a journal.

Then one idea could be to hire some Mary Yugo, Shanahan, , Taubes, to make the 
test.
But like it happen at MIT you can expect some tricks and frauds, and at least 
like in Caltech or harwell, some deliberate incompetence and bad will...

A solution would be to call profession which is less committed against LENR, 
like engineers, electrochemist, but they will be probably treated as a lower 
species not able to measure heat and electricity (this is why they send Essen 
as physicist, and not an engineering school Junior Enterprise. probably the 
electric measures would have been better)...

And even, calling engineers from a company may raise conflicts of interest, and 
suspicion of conflict of interest.
There is a total lack of honest about that, and I can safely suspect that only 
a very negatively biased team may be accepted as good by skeptics, raising 
huge risk of bias, sabotage and fraud.

So we have to find a protocol based on absolute lack of confidence on any side.
It look like a trial, with two attorneys facing a Jury, and public to watch all 
and make revolution if all is manipulated.

My naive idea, inspired by some cryptographic protocol in uncertain environment 
(electronic voting in corrupted environment), is to have two team in the same 
test measuring the same parameters...

I propose for example:

The company measure input power, input voltage, current, waveform, input/output 
fluid temperature, pressure, flow...

the opposing testing team measure the same parameter in cascade (before of 
after).

a third team, the jury observe the discrepancies between the measurement.
If there are difference, there is investigation on the source of the problem, 
helped by the two team.

all is in publicly broadcasted and evidence made public, as soon as a party 
refuse the result.

This eliminate fraud by any camp, even by the jury.
Just have to hope the public is not delusioned (oopt, it is... so it is 
probably hopeless)


2013/8/4 Stefan Israelsson Tampe 
stefan.ita...@gmail.commailto:stefan.ita...@gmail.com
Hi all, I wanted to ask you how to best do a test proving LENR.
After following this for a short time I would probably try something like
this,

I would use two teams
1. The testers, people well versed in LENR and know how to make the
classic FP experiment work.

2. The skeptics, a scientific team which task is to observe the testers so that
they follow the rules and performs the tests without any dirty trick.

3. To this we need one or two people, the test managers, to administrate the 
test.

The main rule are that no one is allowed to test the water for knowing if it is 
heavy or not.
(appart for the FP effect)

Before the testers are asked to prepare say N samples, so that we are pretty 
sure to see the F  P effect will appear at least n times under the assumption 
that P(water is heavy) = 1/2

The administrators will randomize the type of water used in the test

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote:

 it seems National instruments asked such doublinded test in 2012,
 according to the conference of Concezz in Rome (and Brussels)...


Do you have any better links, I find this test interesting a.t.m.

Of cause when the risk of fraud and ugly gaming is present, a correct test
is more delicate. The nice thing with a
old time LENR test is that the researchers can be assumed to not perform a
fraud. It's possible to skip the suggested
skeptic group and just make sure the testers are honest about not peeking
the kind of water. Actually believing in LENR+ is much easier if LENR is
proven interesting. So it would certainly help attracting capital and humans
for LENR+

Regards
Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

Tell me if I'm spaming ...




On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe 
 stefan.ita...@gmail.com wrote:


 But I would like to keep the discussion to the original FP experiment.


 Ah, yes.  Sounds good.  It seems you are pretty familiar with the details,
 then.



Not enough to avoid stupid mistakes.


 There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
 the effect seen is much stronger
 (more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used.


 This is true, to a certain extent, but there have been questions about
 light water since the time of Pons and Fleischmann.  Fleischmann himself
 doubted that light water was a suitable control.  If even some activity is
 seen in a light water electrolysis cell, this would make it harder to see a
 clear difference between the light water cell and a heavy water cell,
 although the difference may pronounced in some cases.  The Pd/D and Pd/H
 experiments often showed an effect in heavy water and none discernible in
 light water.


It would be nice to get some statistics out of that, any links?


 The FP effect itself for a skeptic
 does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic
 effect would be quite a strong indication
 that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong?


 Note that there are many experiments over the years that have shown a
 potential isotope effect in palladium.  I wonder whether another experiment
 along these lines will persuade anyone not already willing to be persuaded.


People have seen the FP effects more then 100 times although perhaps not
with overall excess energy and clear nuclear evidence. It must appear.
Although it is not reproducible, one can apply statistical methods and do
perfectly good science. Doing a proper statistical test is a really simple
way to deduce very hard proof that cannot be dismissed as wrong
measurement, wrong method or anything else, in a blind test which you find
asy that of 15 samples 1 was with normal water and the others with heavy
water you would have something publishable. Just describing the
experimental setup and say that you got these values blindfolded is strong
case no matter what you did when taken the measurements assuming no fraud
and following the presented procedure. I think that the main problem that
we have not done such a thing is that
  1) Low control about the production of samples
  2) Each functioning sample is of gold value, would you throw it away in a
test?

Regards
Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Alain Sepeda]

I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.

Absolute measurement of heat, not even with blank, should be the only and
best solution.

no hysterical skeptic will assume the blank is sincere, ...

even the absolute heat measurement, are currently put in doubt.

some even reject a whole test having proven big CIOP, for minors doubt of
few dozen of %, and accuse the testers to have minimized the heat...

it is psychiatry, not science.

the doubt must be addressed, but no more no less than about apollo and 9/11
conspiracies.



2013/8/4 Stefan Israelsson Tampe stefan.ita...@gmail.com


 Hi Eric,

 I'm not up to speed with your emails. The LENR+ type of activities is
 still something that if proper tests are
 done and affirmative, will be much more interesting, this is clear. But I
 would like to keep the discussion to the
 original FP experiment.


 I think this would be an interesting test to whether there is a possible
 isotope effect. But there's evidence that LENR is seen in light water/light
 hydrogen systems as well.  So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR,
 rather than a parameter that affects it, I think another control should be
 sought out.


 To decide here one need to have a clue about,

 P(FP-effect | water)  and P(FP-effect | heavy water)

 There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
 the effect seen is much stronger
 (more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used. If the frequencies
 are the same, I would guess that
 we could measure the strength to a number and use that in stead in a test.
 The FP effect itself for a skeptic
 does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic
 effect would be quite a strong indication
 that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong? Else wouldn't it be so
 interesting that people would take notice
 of this field?

 Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Jed Rothwell]

Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:

I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
 the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.


I agree, but you do need a good calibration before and after the test. I
suppose that amounts to the same thing as comparative calorimetry.

It is best to apply the most conventional method available. Contrary to
Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims require the most ordinary proof you can
manage.

Never use an unusual method when a standard, proven, off-the-shelf
instrument is available. That is why the Levi test with the IR camera was
so good, and why Ericsson and Pomp's suggestion that they use a
do-it-yourself IR camera is so ridiculous. (I think the suggestion was they
should use the raw output from a camera directly rather than going through
the manufacturer's firmware and software.)

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
 the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.

 Absolute measurement of heat, not even with blank, should be the only and
 best solution.

 no hysterical skeptic will assume the blank is sincere, ...


I only care for the skeptic, hysterical skeptics are just junk and pushes
sane scientist towards believing. Of cause critical minded persons would
like to redo the test, just that if you present the needed method, then
they will reproduce the result and believe in it. The trick is to get
skeptics going to do the right kind of test. Again you need to have control
of the dynamics of the production and you will need to have good statistics
for them to do a correct test.


 even the absolute heat measurement, are currently put in doubt.


well you need to optimize the process, which probably will take quite some
effort e.g. funding so that the higher yields
will be much more reproducable no? Until that happens one need to take the
advantage of what we can produce with not too much effort e.g. also use the
cases where the heat generated is less then total input. (Note, If I have
good statistics about the result we have had to this point I could be much
more precise, without it I can be off target.) for which one can raise
funding etc.



 the doubt must be addressed, but no more no less than about apollo and
 9/11 conspiracies.


I totally agree, conspiracies is all the rage these days. But it flourishes
on both side of the fence.

Regards
Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
 the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.


 I agree, but you do need a good calibration before and after the test. I
 suppose that amounts to the same thing as comparative calorimetry.

 It is best to apply the most conventional method available. Contrary to
 Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims require the most ordinary proof you can
 manage.


Or, KISS, something which should be a mantra.


 Never use an unusual method when a standard, proven, off-the-shelf
 instrument is available. That is why the Levi test with the IR camera was
 so good, and why Ericsson and Pomp's suggestion that they use a
 do-it-yourself IR camera is so ridiculous. (I think the suggestion was they
 should use the raw output from a camera directly rather than going through
 the manufacturer's firmware and software.)


My take on this is that 'unusual method' depends a bit on the standard
practices in a field of science. If for example it is easy to perform a
test with good enough energy surplus, then we only need to supply the
numbers like, take every 10th specimen in series of consecutive samples in
the production series, take in total 45 of them, perform these methods on
them to decide which are potent and perform classic FP or any variant of
your taste and you will see the surplus is beyond chemical in at least one
of the potent samples. That I agree can be perfectly enough. On the other
hand If you ask another field of science where reproducing results are
common problems, they would perhaps employ other tactics. Perhaps, and only
perhaps, one can crossbreed LENR and these other fields.

/Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Jed Rothwell]

Stefan Israelsson Tampe stefan.ita...@gmail.com wrote:


 My take on this is that 'unusual method' depends a bit on the standard
 practices in a field of science. If for example it is easy to perform a
 test with good enough energy surplus, then we only need to supply the
 numbers like, take every 10th specimen in series of consecutive samples in
 the production series . . .


It has been difficult to produce heat. It has not been so difficult to
measure it, in many cases. The excess heat has often been greater than 0.5
W, which is easy to measure using proper instruments,even when input
electrolysis power exceeds that by a large margin.

Quoting my ICCF18 presentation:

John Bockris once said to me: I am not an expert in calorimetry, so I
scouted out the *best expert* in Texas and asked him visit our lab. He
came, looked at the apparatus and the data, and then he laughed and said:
‘You don't need *me*; *anyone can measure that much heat*!'

(Bockris spoke in underlines and exclamation points. He boomed.)

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe 
stefan.ita...@gmail.com wrote:

Tell me if I'm spaming ...


Not in the slightest.  You seem to know something about statistics.  I hope
you will be very critical and complain about any mistaken reasoning you
see.  There are many electrical engineers, software developers and artists
here, but not very many people with a clear command of advanced statistical
methods.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Alain Sepeda]

yes, and seeing the story of LENR compared to other extraordinary claims, I
think that the problem of LENr is that it requires much intelligence,
competence, trust in instruments, in computation, in good protocol, that it
is too easy for a lazy mind (like me sometime) to quickly conclude that it
is artifact, and stop looking...

so the protocol should be very very simple, and free of any possibility to
claim a trick, an artifact... something a layman can understand, and which
a doctor cannot critic without looking ridiculous.

about blank, I agree I've exaggerated, it is useful to increase trust, and
by the way it is useful for the testers to understand the performance of
their apparatus...

One idea that could be pleasant is the turbine-generator feed-back, but
seeing the many critics, rational, extreme, or absurds, I'm afraid that any
complex system will call for denial...

 on the opposite a mass calorimetry with ice, or warming a big bath could
do the job.

I've heard of a simple protocol compatible with steam in the reactor, and
only warm water measured... just split and mixing...

anyway hearing some comments, it seems that even the position of
thermocouple with DGT test was criticized. Despite the blank run at COP0.5
(this way the blank was useful to shut down claims of fraud).

in absolute calorimetry, I don't understand how bad thermocouple
positioning can have a 300% impact... same for bubble back in flowmeter...
Sometime it seems it is pure folly. But yes there can be mistakes...



2013/8/5 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

 Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
 the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.


 I agree, but you do need a good calibration before and after the test. I
 suppose that amounts to the same thing as comparative calorimetry.

 It is best to apply the most conventional method available. Contrary to
 Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims require the most ordinary proof you can
 manage.

 Never use an unusual method when a standard, proven, off-the-shelf
 instrument is available. That is why the Levi test with the IR camera was
 so good, and why Ericsson and Pomp's suggestion that they use a
 do-it-yourself IR camera is so ridiculous. (I think the suggestion was they
 should use the raw output from a camera directly rather than going through
 the manufacturer's firmware and software.)

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe 
stefan.ita...@gmail.com wrote:

It would be nice to get some statistics out of that, any links?


Although this is a reasonable request, there are two difficulties in
addressing it.  The first is that the experiments span a range of
qualities, from very good to very poor, and they are somewhat hard to
compare with one another due to the large parameter space.  A second
difficulty is that there are many relevant papers.

As a start, you should take a look at Ed Storms's book (full disclosure --
he is an occasional participant on this list).  I recommend it very highly.
 It has a number of tables that distill many years of experiments, and the
different sections cover different types of experiment -- old school PF
electrolysis experiments, gas loading experiments, ion beam experiments,
etc.  What you are looking for is perhaps summarized in one or two sections
of this book.  I am not persuaded of all of his conclusions, but his
conclusions are all well-researched.

For a more in-depth investigation, the early papers (say 1989-1991) are
very interesting.  I am reading through them now.  These include mainstream
journal articles and early conference proceedings, some of the latter of
which can be obtained from Amazon.  In addition, LENR-CANR.org has many
early papers as well as a search interface that will allow you to search
for specific terms (e.g., electrolysis).  (This is Jed Rothwell's site.)
 You can also find interesting papers on the New Energy Times site.

The early papers are not the only ones that are relevant for what you're
looking at, of course.  But I get the vague sense that the field is
starting to move on from deuterium electrolysis, although occasionally one
will see new papers.  In general, early papers were published in mainstream
journals and conference proceedings, up until about 1992.  After that,
there is the sporadic paper in Naturwissenschaften and Fusion Technology,
and everything else is largely in conference proceedings or in JCMNS or is
self-published.

One of the challenges with deuterium electrolysis is that it is very
finicky.  For some reason many trials end up being duds, and only
occasionally is a reaction seen, which, in some cases, is dramatic, and
which, in many cases, is barely above the threshold of measurement error.
 These same challenges will no doubt recur in a double-blind experiment
along the lines of what you're thinking about.  I get the impression that
the NiH gas loading system is easier to get going reliably once you know
the secret recipe, but I could be inferring too much from the available
information to justify this conclusion.  Technically speaking, the
researchers may not be 100 percent convinced that NiH is legit, but I get
the sense that people's impressions are starting to change.

To summarize, check out Ed Storms's book or LENR-CANR.org as a starting
point.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

Hi,

On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe 
stefan.ita...@gmail.com wrote:

H0: the seen effect if it's seen, does not depend on the type of water
  H1: It does depend on the type of water.


I think this would be an interesting test to whether there is a possible
isotope effect. But there's evidence that LENR is seen in light water/light
hydrogen systems as well.  So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR,
rather than a parameter that affects it, I think another control should be
sought out.  Whatever that other control is (input power turned off, a
different substrate or cathode, or some other property), could be varied in
the manner you suggest to rule out a null hypothesis.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:

So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR, rather than a parameter
 that affects it, I think another control should be sought out.  Whatever
 that other control is (input power turned off, a different substrate or
 cathode, or some other property), could be varied in the manner you suggest
 to rule out a null hypothesis.


I should clarify -- there are experiments that seek to establish the
existence of LENR (something the mainstream physicists still have yet to
convince themselves of).  There are experiments to look for the mechanism
behind LENR, on the assumption that it exists.  And there are possible
experiments to assess whether a company such as Leonardo Corp. or Defkalion
have a working device that produces more energy that goes into it, possibly
due to LENR.  Perhaps you have the last kind of experiment in mind.  In
that case, a control that seems promising would be to use argon in place of
hydrogen, without making assumptions about whether LENR is caused by light
hydrogen, deuterium, or a combination of both.

(I misspoke when I said that turning off the input power would be a
suitable control.)

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

Hi Eric,

I'm not up to speed with your emails. The LENR+ type of activities is still
something that if proper tests are
done and affirmative, will be much more interesting, this is clear. But I
would like to keep the discussion to the
original FP experiment.


 I think this would be an interesting test to whether there is a possible
 isotope effect. But there's evidence that LENR is seen in light water/light
 hydrogen systems as well.  So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR,
 rather than a parameter that affects it, I think another control should be
 sought out.


To decide here one need to have a clue about,

P(FP-effect | water)  and P(FP-effect | heavy water)

There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
the effect seen is much stronger
(more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used. If the frequencies
are the same, I would guess that
we could measure the strength to a number and use that in stead in a test.
The FP effect itself for a skeptic
does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic effect
would be quite a strong indication
that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong? Else wouldn't it be so
interesting that people would take notice
of this field?

Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Alain Sepeda]

it seems National instruments asked such doublinded test in 2012, according
to the conference of Concezz in Rome (and Brussels)...

about industrial claims, there is similar concern, not of doubleblind, but
because of suspected fraud by testers.
One big fear of industrialist is when the tester organization is fair like
MIT/Harwell/caltech and sabotage the test in public.
It is a real problem, since simple honest and open scientist are typically
suspected of beinf friendly with LENR, like Essen have been with Elforsk
test.
It is like the peer-review process, which is accused of being corrupted if
LMENR paper are commonly accepted in a journal.

Then one idea could be to hire some Mary Yugo, Shanahan, , Taubes, to make
the test.
But like it happen at MIT you can expect some tricks and frauds, and at
least like in Caltech or harwell, some deliberate incompetence and bad
will...

A solution would be to call profession which is less committed against
LENR, like engineers, electrochemist, but they will be probably treated as
a lower species not able to measure heat and electricity (this is why they
send Essen as physicist, and not an engineering school Junior Enterprise.
probably the electric measures would have been better)...

And even, calling engineers from a company may raise conflicts of interest,
and suspicion of conflict of interest.
There is a total lack of honest about that, and I can safely suspect that
only a very negatively biased team may be accepted as good by skeptics,
raising huge risk of bias, sabotage and fraud.

So we have to find a protocol based on absolute lack of confidence on any
side.
It look like a trial, with two attorneys facing a Jury, and public to watch
all and make revolution if all is manipulated.

My naive idea, inspired by some cryptographic protocol in uncertain
environment (electronic voting in corrupted environment), is to have two
team in the same test measuring the same parameters...

I propose for example:

The company measure input power, input voltage, current, waveform,
input/output fluid temperature, pressure, flow...

the opposing testing team measure the same parameter in cascade (before of
after).

a third team, the jury observe the discrepancies between the measurement.
If there are difference, there is investigation on the source of the
problem, helped by the two team.

all is in publicly broadcasted and evidence made public, as soon as a party
refuse the result.

This eliminate fraud by any camp, even by the jury.
Just have to hope the public is not delusioned (oopt, it is... so it is
probably hopeless)



2013/8/4 Stefan Israelsson Tampe stefan.ita...@gmail.com

 Hi all, I wanted to ask you how to best do a test proving LENR.
 After following this for a short time I would probably try something like
 this,

 I would use two teams
 1. The testers, people well versed in LENR and know how to make the
 classic FP experiment work.

 2. The skeptics, a scientific team which task is to observe the testers so
 that
 they follow the rules and performs the tests without any dirty trick.

 3. To this we need one or two people, the test managers, to administrate
 the test.

 The main rule are that no one is allowed to test the water for knowing if
 it is heavy or not.
 (appart for the FP effect)

 Before the testers are asked to prepare say N samples, so that we are
 pretty sure to see the F  P effect will appear at least n times under the
 assumption that P(water is heavy) = 1/2

 The administrators will randomize the type of water used in the test and
 hide it for the teams. After all the tests have been performed, one should
 be able to decide among,

 H0: the seen effect if it's seen, does not depend on the type of water
 H1: It does depend on the type of water.

 Of cause current experience and the help of people well versed in setting
 up statistical tests should be consulted.

 Shouldn't this kind of test be possible and wouldn't a rejecting of H0 be
 a amazing fact for any sceptic? It should show
 1. The FP effect is real and
 2. The nucleus have to be involved in some way, hence LENR.

 WDYT?

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe 
stefan.ita...@gmail.com wrote:


 But I would like to keep the discussion to the original FP experiment.


Ah, yes.  Sounds good.  It seems you are pretty familiar with the details,
then.


 There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
 the effect seen is much stronger
 (more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used.


This is true, to a certain extent, but there have been questions about
light water since the time of Pons and Fleischmann.  Fleischmann himself
doubted that light water was a suitable control.  If even some activity is
seen in a light water electrolysis cell, this would make it harder to see a
clear difference between the light water cell and a heavy water cell,
although the difference may pronounced in some cases.  The Pd/D and Pd/H
experiments often showed an effect in heavy water and none discernible in
light water.


 The FP effect itself for a skeptic
 does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic
 effect would be quite a strong indication
 that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong?


I see where you're coming from.  I'm a hobbyist, so I can only speculate on
what would satisfy an open-minded skeptical scientist.  But if observers
are willing to suspend judgment on what is going on, a clear isotope effect
in a Pd+LiOD system versus a Pd+LiOH system might be interesting to them.
 When people mention the PF effect, they often have excess heat in mind as
the observable, and this seems like a good one.  But if we're looking for
ironclad proof of a nuclear effect, per se, tritium, charged particles or
characteristic x-rays might be interesting to look at.

Else wouldn't it be so interesting that people would take notice
 of this field?


Note that there are many experiments over the years that have shown a
potential isotope effect in palladium.  I wonder whether another experiment
along these lines will persuade anyone not already willing to be persuaded.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:test

[Axil Axil]

I see you


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:

 Vortex, are you down?

 --
 Dr. Peter Gluck
 Cluj, Romania
 http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:test

[Alan Fletcher]

The list got too skeptical ?   Demanded two-factor authorization?



=8-(

Re: [Vo]:test

[Jed Rothwell]

Test response. Message received. Other messages not posting.

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

Thanks, Bill!

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 10:04 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote:


 (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
 William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
 billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
 EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
 Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

Re: [Vo]:test

[Alexander Hollins]

a c c d true false false true antidisetablishmentarianism , because
sailing, travel, and monster stories were popular, thus Moby Dick was a
preemptive commercial success.


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:04 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote:



 (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
 William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
 billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
 EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
 Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

Re: [Vo]:test

[Peter Gluck]

OK Bill


On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 5:04 AM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote:



 (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
 William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
 billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
 EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
 Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci




-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:test

[John Berry]

I'll pong even though you didn't ping.
Maybe I should just take a shower ;)

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote:



 (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
 William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
 billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
 EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
 Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

Re: [Vo]:Test thread heading

[Jed Rothwell]

Test response. Let's see if James Bowery is right and this is something at
my end.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test thread heading

[Jed Rothwell]

Nope. No recursive explosion of Re: Re: Re:

It must be something like the dash in the title. The Eskimo.com mail system
is bonkers.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test thread heading

[James Bowery]

The reason I said it is at your end is that when I responded to the same
threads, no explosion happened whereas when you responded, it did happen.
 At least that's the way it appeared at this end.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Nope. No recursive explosion of Re: Re: Re:

 It must be something like the dash in the title. The Eskimo.com mail
 system is bonkers.

 - Jed

[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Test message reproducing the – problem

[James Bowery]

A test response.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is a test to determine whether the problem with response prefix
 explosion was caused by funny windows characters such as  –

 which appeared in the title of the prior thread.

[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Test message reproducing the – problem

[James Bowery]

Yep.

Thank you, world's richest man.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:27 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 A test response.


 On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is a test to determine whether the problem with response prefix
 explosion was caused by funny windows characters such as  –

 which appeared in the title of the prior thread.

[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Test message reproducing the – problem

[Jed Rothwell]

James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

Yep.

 Thank you, world's richest man.


Probably not Microsoft's fault. But hey, let't blame 'em! They are guilty
of a lot of things.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:test, is it alive?

[Peter Gluck]

nothing observed


On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 10:07 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote:


 eskimo.com ISP is transferring the software to a new machine.  Something
 went wrong?



 (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
 William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
 billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
 EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
 Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci




-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:test, is it alive?

[Terry Blanton]

It has been down for a couple of days.

I monitor the eskimo yahoo group and did not see any notice.  Maybe
they didn't give one?  :-)

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:07 PM, William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com wrote:

 eskimo.com ISP is transferring the software to a new machine.  Something
 went wrong?



 (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
 William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
 billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
 EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
 Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

Re: [Vo]:test massage

[Terry Blanton]

the list was hiccuping earlier

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 a little to the right

Re: [Vo]:test

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

From Terry.

 Post it in docs.google.com

I finally posted my scribblings under the subject thread: Groking
CoAM, Kepler and Rossi as a txt file. Nothing appears to have gotten
terribly garbled.

BTW, I noticed that Google is upgrading docs.google.com to drive.google.com

Under new management.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 10:01 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson
svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote:

 BTW, I noticed that Google is upgrading docs.google.com to 
 drive.google.com

Good movie:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780504/

Better movie:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1502404/

Hot movie:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1071875/

T

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

No, try again.

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:47 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
 Is this getting through?



 svj

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

Eskimo.com is replacing the mail server with new h/w and s/w.  Some
hiccups have been experienced of late; but, patience will be a virtue.

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 No, try again.

 T

 On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:47 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
 orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
 Is this getting through?



 svj

RE: [Vo]:test

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Drat!

I'm trying to send a post in HTML format because it contains some font
changes to make it easier to read some formulas. I got it down to under 40k
but Vortex-l still doesn't like it.

Oh, well... I'll send it in raw text format.

Screw the fancy fonts!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

Post it in docs.google.com

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 6:15 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
 Drat!

 I'm trying to send a post in HTML format because it contains some font
 changes to make it easier to read some formulas. I got it down to under 40k
 but Vortex-l still doesn't like it.

 Oh, well... I'll send it in raw text format.

 Screw the fancy fonts!

 Regards,
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks

RE: [Vo]:test

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

Do a screen capture of the equations and simply attach that as a JPG to your
vortex posting... if black text on white, it should compress to a fairly
small JPG. 

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 3:42 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:test

Post it in docs.google.com

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 6:15 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
 Drat!

 I'm trying to send a post in HTML format because it contains some font 
 changes to make it easier to read some formulas. I got it down to 
 under 40k but Vortex-l still doesn't like it.

 Oh, well... I'll send it in raw text format.

 Screw the fancy fonts!

 Regards,
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Terry Blanton]

Watch out where the huskies go and don't you eat that yellow snow!

T

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Nanook nan...@eskimo.com wrote:

 Testing list processing.

 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
  Eskimo North Linux Friendly Internet Access, Shell Accounts, and Hosting.
   Knowledgable human assistance, not telephone trees or script readers.
  See our web site: http://www.eskimo.com/ (206) 812-0051 or (800) 246-6874.

Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Иванов Михаил]

test passed!

RE: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]

I don't know about nanotubes, but b-fullerene is soluable in something easy
and it turns it purpleish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19655724
  -Original Message-
  From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
  Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 12:53 PM
  To: Vortex
  Subject: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes


  Hey Gang,  Is anyone here aware of an easy test for the presence of Carbon
Nanotubes?  Easy being simple and inexpensive and accessible to ordinary
folks without expensive equipment.  A Test that would quantify the amount of
carbon nanotubes would be better than simply telling me that they are
present.

  I am testing my nanotube reactor but I am unsure how much nanotubes I am
creating if any.

  Is there a chemical out there that would react exclusively with nanotubes
only.  Alternatively, a chemical that would strip away the carbon soot and
ordinary carbon particles and leave behind only carbon nanotubes would work
also.  I am aware that there is a CNT purification process, but a google
search reveal nothing within my reach or capability.


  Jojo

RE: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

That was helpful...
-m

-Original Message-
From: Иванов Михаил [mailto:i-...@yandex.ru] 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes


test passed!

RE: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Иванов Михаил]

test passed!

Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Axil Axil]

Check out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langmuir_probe


Langmuir probe


A *Langmuir probe* is a device named after Nobel
Prizehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prizewinning physicist
Irving
Langmuir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Langmuir, used to determine
the electron temperature, electron density, and electric potential of a
plasma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics). It works by
inserting one or more electrodes into a plasma, with a constant or
time-varying electric potential between the various electrodes or between
them and the surrounding vessel. The measured currents and potentials in
this system allow the determination of the physical properties of the
plasma.

Then see

http://www.physics.uiowa.edu/~rmerlino/APS_05_dust_MS.pdf

*CHARGING OF DUST IN A NEGATIVE ION PLASMA*
**
*For a general overview of dusty plasma look at*
**

http://wsx.lanl.gov/RSX/PPSS_2006/lectures/Goree_LANL_PPSS07.pdf
**
*Fundamentals of Dusty Plasmas*

* *

If you need more

Google the key words:

* *

langmuir probe carbon nanotube density



Cheers:  Axil






On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Hey Gang,  Is anyone here aware of an easy test for the presence of Carbon
 Nanotubes?  Easy being simple and inexpensive and accessible to ordinary
 folks without expensive equipment.  A Test that would quantify the amount
 of carbon nanotubes would be better than simply telling me that they are
 present.

 I am testing my nanotube reactor but I am unsure how much nanotubes I am
 creating if any.

 Is there a chemical out there that would react exclusively with nanotubes
 only.  Alternatively, a chemical that would strip away the carbon soot and
 ordinary carbon particles and leave behind only carbon nanotubes would work
 also.  I am aware that there is a CNT purification process, but a google
 search reveal nothing within my reach or capability.


 Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Иванов Михаил]

test passed!

Re: [Vo]:test

[Chemical Engineer]

Peter,

Received

Thanks!

On Saturday, June 2, 2012, Peter Gluck wrote:

 test

 --
 Dr. Peter Gluck
 Cluj, Romania
 http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:test, ignore

[Daniel Rocha]

I cannot ignore. I'M IN LOVE!

2012/4/30 William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com


 yet another test




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Shoot! I have to respond to this.

 

NOONE, PLEASE CHECK YOUR PERSONAL RETURN EMAIL SETTINGS WHEN YOU RESPOND TO
POSTS IN VORTEX-L. EVERYONE WHO ATTEMPTS TO RESPOND TO YOUR VORTEX POSTS ARE
CONSTANTLY IN DANGER OF SENDING EMAIL TO YOUR PERSONAL EMAIL ACCOUNT, NOT TO
VORTEX-L. WE HAVE TO MANUALLY OVERIDE YOUR CURRENT REPLY SETTINGS. PLEASE
FIX THIS!

 

I realize we are speaking hypothetically here. I also realize I'm speaking
to the equivalent of a brick wall. But alas, that is the cross I must bear.

 

 The fact is if I was in a situation where I was an inventor 

 and my technology was stolen, money would be the last thing

 on my mind. If I was forced to accept money, I would work

 with lawyers to try and find the best way to use it against

 the company that stole my technology. I would not care how

 much I had to benefit, or the world had to benefit.

 

So, what this all really boils down to is the fact that it's about your
rights and your principals. This concept you've come up with concerning your
rights and principals are so important to you that you really don't give a
crap what happens to the world - just as long as you don't end up
prostituting your rights and principles. Well, I can appreciate your
principals, but only to a certain extent...  The rest of it just turns into
a horrible Greek tragedy.

 

 I am in the real world. I realize I am not a law expert, but

 at the same time I know what is right and what is wrong. If

 I had a technology that was stolen, I would simply strive to

 do anything and everything to prevent the other company from

 being able to use my technology. I might fail, and they

 might be allowed to sell the technology. But I would do

 everything (that is peaceful and non-violent) to hinder that

 company for the rest of my life. Hopefully, I would at least

 slow down the proliferation of the stolen technology.

 

In other words, your rights' and principals are so important to you that
you really don't give a crap what happens to the world for which you and the
rest of us live in, as you go about defending your rights and
principals. If your peaceful attempts to hinder the manufacture of
something that would benefit the world are realized, you don't consider how
potentially violent that could turn out to be for everyone being prevented
from benefiting from the invention?

 

I wonder what Jesus would have to say about that?

 

 Sadly, you and others seem to think the needs of the many

 are more important than the rights of the individual. That

 is how our sickening world works these days (for the most

 part). However, I hope that will change in the future. The

 rights of the individual must be protected at all cost,

 because otherwise life becomes meaningless. If I do not have

 my rights and freedoms protected, I might as well not be

 alive.

 

If I had an amazing invention that I knew would benefit the world, I most
certainly would want to profit from it. As much as I could! However, I hope
I would also weigh my own personal individual rights  principals with the
rights  principals of the rest of the world. I'm not the only person on
this planet who has rights and principals that need to be respected, you
know. If someone stole my money making invention, I'd go to court, just as
you would. However, in my case if it was becoming clear to me that it would
be unlikely that I'd get my invention back I would seek to get the matter
settled through some kind of a financial compensation / arrangement. Since
it is likely that I would have sufficient evidence to prove that I deserve
SOME kind of compensation for my contribution to society, I suspect a
financial arrangement would eventually be worked out. Why would I want to,
as you seem to want to do, spend the rest of my life trying to turn the life
of my competitor enemy into what I hope will be a bloody living hell for
the rest of his life...all on principal of protecting my personal
rights? Quite frankly, I think you are so worried about not having any
principals or rights at all in which to hang your hat on that you are
willing to sacrifice the rights and principals of rest of the world, just so
you can prove to yourself that you actually DO have rights and principals
that you stand by. Have you so little sense of self-confidence in yourself
that this is the only kind of self-destructive action you can conjure up -
all in the name of proving to yourself that you do have rights and
principals?

 

Again, what would Jesus have to say about that? What would Jesus have to say
about focusing all of your actions on the need to protect your own rights
to such a maniacal degree that it ends up trashing the rights of your
neighbor.

 

Alas, I realize this response of mine is futile. Talking to noone noone
about rights is like talking to a brick wall. All I can say is that I sure
don't want to live by noone's principals. By my religion that would result
in WAY TOO much bad karma that would likely take me several 

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Vorl Bek]

Please take this to vortexb.

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint]

Noone^2 wrote:

I not a very jovial person.

 

Yaaa think?  J

 

Whatever the baggage you're carrying around with you, don't you think it's
time to let it go?  It does nothing by make one's life miserable and full of
drama.

-m

 

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

But whose technology are they going to be testing?

Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE 
WORTH CELEBRATING!)

Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)

Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about 
the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without 
Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.)

If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the 
testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive.

If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his 
intellectual property.




 From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 
I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit.  Not too long 
before the testing starts.  It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion 
performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time.  We 
probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we 
get positive news very soon.  

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

Recognition is not the issue here. The issue is property rights. 


Even if Apple, Google, and Microsoft get away with stealing other companies 
technologies (or having to pay a fine) it is not OK. If a company is found to 
be using another company's tech without permission, the offending company 
should not be allowed to sell products using the tech.

We do not know if Defkalion is using Rossi's tech (or tech directly inspired by 
the E-Cat) or not. But if they are, I hope Rossi will do everything legal and 
lawful in his power to stop them.

If they are using an original technology, then I hope they sell a billion 
Hyperions.




 From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com
To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

If the devices work, I think all options are OK.  Apple, Google, Microsoft and 
others are in patent wars all the time.  It's just business.  Who knows, the IP 
rights may have already expired on some of this stuff anyway.  Rossi will get 
his recognition as one of the early inventors/developers and the lawyers will 
get their fees!


On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:31 AM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote:

But whose technology are they going to be testing?

Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE 
WORTH CELEBRATING!)

Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)

Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about 
the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without 
Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.)

If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the 
testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive.

If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend 
his intellectual property.




 From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit.  Not too long 
before the testing starts.  It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion 
performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time.  We 
probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we 
get positive news very soon.  

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

The big issue here is the catalysts and special preparation of the nickel 
powders (enrichment with certain isotopes). If they are using his catalyst or 
developed a catalyst of their own by examining the catalysts of the E-Cat when 
they were not supposed to do so, I think that is unethical. Also, he claims 
that his enrichment methods are proprietary.

Even if they avoided making a copy by having access to his catalyst when they 
were not allowed to do so, they are still in the wrong.

The way I see it, if they ever gained access to Rossi's IP without permission 
and used it in the development of their technology, their technology is not 
original. The only way for their technology to be one hundred percent original 
is if they never gained any information about the E-Cat without permission, or 
if they did, used engineers to develop the Hyperion that were never given 
access to that information.


In addition, Andrea Rossi has stated that he regularly produces 1600C inside 
the reactor cores. The units that he is building for home use and in one 
megawatt plants will probably have lower internal temperatures, for stability. 
The ECat can produce high temperatures, but the problem is at high temperatures 
the system can go unstable, and melt the nickel powder.

They may or may not be ahead of Rossi. They have not allowed a single test so 
far. It is possible they are ahead of the ECat, but we need test data to find 
out.




 From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com
To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

from the data they give :
the H2 pressure is higher (50bars)
no radiofrequency
capacity to work much above 400C (600C,900C)
many catalyst tested
much better control (by pulse modulation), perfect stability.

it seems that they simply reinvent it from the asic Ni+H idea, probably using 
public data,
and maybe sobt hint from what they see, to avoid copying or where to look at...

if they are serious they use what they know about e-cat not to copy it.

clearly they are much ahead, even compare to new rossi data...



2012/2/24 noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com

But whose technology are they going to be testing?

Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE 
WORTH CELEBRATING!)

Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)

Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about 
the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without 
Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.)

If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the 
testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive.

If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend 
his intellectual property.




 From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit.  Not too long 
before the testing starts.  It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion 
performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time.  We 
probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we 
get positive news very soon.  

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

2 and 3 would be a tragedy, because it would mean the Hyperion is not original. 
It could also mean that they are using Rossi's IP without permission.

I hope Defkalion's technology is original. It very well may be. But if it is 
not, it is a shame that they did not simply pay Rossi earlier in 2011 so they 
could continue working together. Instead, if 2 or 3 is true, Rossi may be able 
to use legal means to stop them from using the tech without permission.


I am really hoping the Defkalion technology is original and works exactly as 
they claim. If that is the case, it is a huge breakthrough that will change the 
world.




 From: Charly Sistovaris charlysi...@gmail.com
To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

#1 I doubt it
#2  #3 the only tragedy is if ecat's a hoax...


On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:31 AM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote:

But whose technology are they going to be testing?

Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE 
WORTH CELEBRATING!)

Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)

Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about 
the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without 
Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.)

If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the 
testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive.

If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend 
his intellectual property.




 From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit.  Not too long 
before the testing starts.  It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion 
performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time.  We 
probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we 
get positive news very soon.  

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[zer tte]

The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes back to 1979, 
and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was published in 1994.
Now, as far as i know,  Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet.
But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be that all 
doubts about the technology will be lifted.
It does not matter who runs the test at all.

Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Wolf Fischer]

I wonder where the test protocols are... It's by now nearly 16:00 in 
Athens, so when do the tests start? The protocols should be published 
before the tests begin AFAIK.


The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes back 
to 1979, and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was published in 1994.

Now, as far as i know,  Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet.
But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be that 
all doubts about the technology will be lifted.

It does not matter who runs the test at all.

Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jed Rothwell]

noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote:


 Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual
 property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)


Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This
would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a
bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials.
Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they
originally intended to do.

In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled
it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal
battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers.

All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we
have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent
Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly
written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Alain Sepeda]

maybe they change their idea, under the demand of the tester,
to avoid the crazy behavior of fans and pathoskeptics.

also maybe the testers don't wan't to be identified before the test succeed
to avoid looking ridiculous...

cold fusion is really frightening for corp and officials...

I feel like a kid waiting for santa klaus in front of the chimney.

2012/2/24 Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de

  I wonder where the test protocols are... It's by now nearly 16:00 in
 Athens, so when do the tests start? The protocols should be published
 before the tests begin AFAIK.


  The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes back to
 1979, and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was published in 1994.
  Now, as far as i know,  Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet.
 But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be that all
 doubts about the technology will be lifted.
 It does not matter who runs the test at all.

  Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Wolf Fischer]

Hm wouldn't it be better if they would announce such a change?
Now i am sitting here and constantly hitting F5 on my keyboard with 
the opened Defkalion site in front of me ;)



maybe they change their idea, under the demand of the tester,
to avoid the crazy behavior of fans and pathoskeptics.

also maybe the testers don't wan't to be identified before the test 
succeed to avoid looking ridiculous...


cold fusion is really frightening for corp and officials...

I feel like a kid waiting for santa klaus in front of the chimney.

2012/2/24 Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de mailto:wolffisc...@gmx.de

I wonder where the test protocols are... It's by now nearly 16:00
in Athens, so when do the tests start? The protocols should be
published before the tests begin AFAIK.



The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes
back to 1979, and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was
published in 1994.
Now, as far as i know,  Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet.
But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be
that all doubts about the technology will be lifted.
It does not matter who runs the test at all.

Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

From Jed,

 noone noone  wrote:


 Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual
 property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)

 Nonsense.

I agree,

What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential
competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of
Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's
just business.

Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would
translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party!

If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end
up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A
reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros -
for pain and suffering.

We'll see.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Chemical Engineer]

It's just b'ness.  Leave tragedy to the novels.

On Friday, February 24, 2012, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson 
svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote:
 From Jed,

 noone noone  wrote:


 Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his
intellectual
 property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)

 Nonsense.

 I agree,

 What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential
 competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of
 Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's
 just business.

 Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would
 translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party!

 If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end
 up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A
 reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros -
 for pain and suffering.

 We'll see.

 Regards
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jouni Valkonen]

Indeed Jed, I found this somewhat hilarious, that people (e.g. Noone noone) are 
accusing Defkalion about IP-theft. 

I have previously stated, that current patent legislation is outdated, because 
the benefit of IP-rights cannot even remotely offset, the cost of lawyers and 
bureaucracy involved in both public sector and private sector. This is 
especially true in medical sector where patentability is grossly abused in 
order to accumulate capital and suppressing competition.

If Alex's story is true how they acquired the composition of catalyst, then 
Rossi willingly gave and showed the formula to Defkalion. It is not Defkalion's 
duty to close their eyes if Rossi is showing his technology. However, I 
somewhat doubt that and if Defkalion has something, they figured it out 
independently ― perhaps on a basis of minor hints.

Also as Jed stated, it is purely Rossi's own fault if he did not do proper 
patenting of his technology. I have some doubts that patenting cold fusion 
phenomena as such is not going to give sufficient IP protection.

Also my guess is that Rossi has serious problems of making his cold fusion 
technology commercially viable. Thus he is probably delaying that his 'letting 
customers decide' -approach several years. Therefore, I would say that it is 
great service to humanity, if Defkalion has 'stolen' and then improved his 
technology to be commercially viable.

Someone should have 'stolen' Rossi's cold fusion technology back in 2008!

Also I find it hilarious, that Defkalion is accused about theft only because he 
stole something from Rossi that did not work (low COP and great instability), 
but made it working technology (high COP and great temperature and stability). 
I cannot comprehend that it could be the same technology, if Defkalion's 
technology is claimed to work where as Rossi's ecat technology is claimed to 
not work commercially viable manner.

Of course main problem we have here that, there are too many of those, who are 
claiming things... But as I have been negative towards Defkalion, they can earn 
my trust, if they are really going to do what they have been claiming. These 
tests would be first concrete step forwards taken by Defkalion.

 ―Jouni

Sent from my iPad

On 24 Feb 2012, at 16:53, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote:
  
 Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
 property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)
 
 Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This 
 would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch 
 of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually 
 Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally 
 intended to do.
 
 In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it 
 out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle 
 going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers.
 
 All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we 
 have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent 
 Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly 
 written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my 
permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit.

The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call 
all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own 
company.


If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or 
other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I 
hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology 
without permission.





 From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)


Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would 
not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of 
lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion 
would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do.

In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it 
out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going 
on unless they read the business section of the newspapers.

All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have 
patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has 
failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. 
His previous patents looked invalid to me.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

A principled inventor would not accept a penny in damages in exchange for the 
other company to continue selling the products. A principled inventor would 
demand that the other company re-call their products, and be forced to STOP 
SELLING THEM.

If I was an injured inventor, I would want sales to stop immediately. I would 
want them to stop so I could sell the products from my company, or from 
officially licensed parties. The lure of a hundred billion dollars would not be 
enough to make me sacrifice my principles.

If Rossi has had his technology stolen or has his technology stolen in the 
future (I do not know if it has happened or will happen) then I hope he does 
not receive the Noble Prize, or any payments from those who have copied his 
technology. I would hope for one thing, that the companies who have copied his 
technology are forced to recall any products they have sold, and stop selling 
any more.

If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would 
demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that used 
my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other company 
having to pay back all their customers, so be it. 




 From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 
From Jed,

 noone noone  wrote:


 Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual
 property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)

 Nonsense.

I agree,

What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential
competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of
Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's
just business.

Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would
translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party!

If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end
up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A
reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros -
for pain and suffering.

We'll see.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jarold McWilliams]

That's not going to happen.  Almost everyone who has made a lot of money off of 
new technology has stolen it from someone else.  If Rossi really does have 
something, I hope he does get the money and fame he deserves, but I'm much more 
concerned about getting this product out to the public as soon as possible, and 
I'm not willing to wait for Rossi so he can make money.
On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:55 AM, noone noone wrote:

 If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my 
 permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit.
 
 The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to 
 re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products 
 from my own company.
 
 If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, 
 or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. 
 I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology 
 without permission.
 
 
 
 From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
 Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 
 noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote:
  
 Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
 property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)
 
 Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This 
 would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch 
 of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually 
 Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally 
 intended to do.
 
 In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it 
 out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle 
 going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers.
 
 All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we 
 have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent 
 Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly 
 written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me.
 
 - Jed
 
 
 

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

For the record, I do not know if Defkalion is using a copy of Rossi's 
technology (or a technology developed after obtaining Rossi's IP without 
permission) or not. I do not know what the truth is about the situation. 
However, I find the comments from yourself and others who seem not to care 
about property rights very troublesome. All it seems some people care about is 
this technology getting out there regardless if theft has taken place. A world 
that allows theft to take place for the good of masses is not a world that I 
would want to live in. It would be a socialist, big government nightmare in 
which the individuals rights are sacrificed for the good of the many.

I want cold fusion and other exotic technologies to change the world. I want it 
to save lives. But not at the cost of the inventors property rights!

Again, money is not the issue here. If I were Rossi, money is not what would 
matter to me. I would turn down any dime of compensation. I would throw the 
Noble Prize on the ground and spit on it. I would only be satisfied if other 
companies that were copying my tech were forced to stop doing so.





 From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com
To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com 
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

That's not going to happen.  Almost everyone who has made a lot of money off of 
new technology has stolen it from someone else.  If Rossi really does have 
something, I hope he does get the money and fame he deserves, but I'm much more 
concerned about getting this product out to the public as soon as possible, and 
I'm not willing to wait for Rossi so he can make money.

On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:55 AM, noone noone wrote:

If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my 
permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit.


The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call 
all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my 
own company.



If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or 
other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I 
hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology 
without permission.








 From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual 
property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.)



Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would 
not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of 
lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion 
would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do.


In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it 
out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle 
going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers.


All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have 
patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office 
has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written 
patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

noone noone sez:

 If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied
 it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion
 dollars from a lawsuit.

 The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be
 forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money
 by selling the products from my own company.

Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to
court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will
be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years.

And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that
will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those
recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good
PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are
desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding
justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the
population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they
will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting
even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You
have that going for you.

Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my
invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with
the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the
energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the
history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals
access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that
someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should
be profiting over himself.

 If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any
 credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he
 would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life
 becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without
 permission.

Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people 
think of me.

I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would 
Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal.

In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. 
The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches 
out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer 
bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to 
budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you 
a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on 
(THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support 
them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even 
if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each 
other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I 
believe her principles are more important than anything else.

If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission 
(I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in 
history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, 
by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other 
inventors.

A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the 
world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each 
day.




 From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 
noone noone sez:

 If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied
 it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion
 dollars from a lawsuit.

 The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be
 forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money
 by selling the products from my own company.

Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to
court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will
be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years.

And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that
will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those
recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good
PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are
desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding
justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the
population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they
will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting
even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You
have that going for you.

Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my
invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with
the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the
energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the
history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals
access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that
someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should
be profiting over himself.

 If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any
 credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he
 would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life
 becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without
 permission.

Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jarold McWilliams]

If everyone was better off, including yourself, you'd still follow your 
values?  I completely disagree with this.  All I care about is making 
people's lives better.  
On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:32 PM, noone noone wrote:

 When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people 
 think of me.
 
 I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would 
 Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal.
 
 In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. 
 The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and 
 branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, 
 has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where 
 you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can 
 easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after 
 being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to 
 financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only 
 appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to 
 orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have 
 not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important 
 than anything else.
 
 If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without 
 permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most 
 evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the 
 right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights 
 of all other inventors.
 
 A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the 
 world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more 
 each day.
 
 From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com 
 Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 
 noone noone sez:
 
  If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied
  it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion
  dollars from a lawsuit.
 
  The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be
  forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money
  by selling the products from my own company.
 
 Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to
 court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will
 be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years.
 
 And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that
 will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those
 recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good
 PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are
 desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding
 justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the
 population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they
 will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting
 even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You
 have that going for you.
 
 Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my
 invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with
 the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the
 energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the
 history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals
 access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that
 someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should
 be profiting over himself.
 
  If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any
  credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he
  would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life
  becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without
  permission.
 
 Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do.
 
 Regards
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks