Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
I agree too. Also note that property IDs are language-neutral, unlike english names of templates, magic words, etc. Il 13/07/2015 11:45, Jane Darnell ha scritto: Me too. On the point of Wikipedia templates, I would like to remind you that templates are a dramatically confusing mess on Wikipedia, and lots of those unique, localized names do not lend themselves to reuse, which is why we have so many doubles and why the translation extension hasn't been able to use them yet. Andy Mabbett has spent a lot of time and effort in trying to clean this up a bit on the English Wikipedia by merging and consolidating various popular templates, and I believe that properties are starting to move in the same direction. I certainly don't think we want to look at Wikipedia templates as an example of how to go about doing this. On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 9:10 AM, John Erling Blad jeb...@gmail.com mailto:jeb...@gmail.com wrote: I for one agree with Gerard that this is a problem. John søn. 12. jul. 2015, 18.08 skrev Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de mailto:daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: Am 12.07.2015 um 15:31 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, You do not get it. Indeed. This is why I am asking questions. There are many properties. Consequently the scale of things is substantially different. There are far, far more templates than properties. And we use unique, localized names for templates. Why not for properties? And if we don't want this for properties, why do the same arguments not apply for template names? It has been demonstrated that languages will have homonyms and consequently it is NOT a good idea to use labels or whatever you call them for properties. You can use them as long as internally you use the P-number. Internally, we always use the P-number. Unless with internally you mean in wikitext. This is the point under discussion: whether we want localized names for use in wikitext. You can use a text as long as the combination of label and description is unique. This combination may be useful. This is how we do it for items. This works quite well with a selector widget. It does not work inside wikitext - there, you either need a unique name, or rely on the plain ID. For items, sitelinks act as a per-language unique name. For properties, we decided to require a unique label, since we can't use sitelinks there, and the number is low enough (a few thousand, compared to tens of millions of items) that ambuguities should be rare. At the same time be aware that property labels will be wrong and will need to be changed at a later date. This is why we want to make aliases unique. If we have unique aliases, labels can change without breaking anything. When this presents a problem for the comparison with external sources, it is tough. It is best to indicate this from the start. Why would labels or aliases be used for comparison with external sources? Properties can be linked to external vocabularies via statements, just like we do it for items. Relying on labels for doing this would be asking for trouble. The argument about what happens in MediaWiki is secondary. And sorry that not everyone cares or knows about that in your way. The point is very much that at the scale of thousands and thousands of properties it does not scale. This point has been made plenty of times by now. Really? How and where? I only hear you asserting it, but I see no evidence. I see it scaling perfectly well on Wikidata. Property names already *are* unique, always have been. I know of no major problems with this. There are some issues with cultural differences and homonyms (e.g. the distinction between sex and gender, or the double meaning of editor in Portuguese), but these are relatively rare, and no worse than naming dicussions on Wikipedia. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Me too. On the point of Wikipedia templates, I would like to remind you that templates are a dramatically confusing mess on Wikipedia, and lots of those unique, localized names do not lend themselves to reuse, which is why we have so many doubles and why the translation extension hasn't been able to use them yet. Andy Mabbett has spent a lot of time and effort in trying to clean this up a bit on the English Wikipedia by merging and consolidating various popular templates, and I believe that properties are starting to move in the same direction. I certainly don't think we want to look at Wikipedia templates as an example of how to go about doing this. On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 9:10 AM, John Erling Blad jeb...@gmail.com wrote: I for one agree with Gerard that this is a problem. John søn. 12. jul. 2015, 18.08 skrev Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: Am 12.07.2015 um 15:31 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, You do not get it. Indeed. This is why I am asking questions. There are many properties. Consequently the scale of things is substantially different. There are far, far more templates than properties. And we use unique, localized names for templates. Why not for properties? And if we don't want this for properties, why do the same arguments not apply for template names? It has been demonstrated that languages will have homonyms and consequently it is NOT a good idea to use labels or whatever you call them for properties. You can use them as long as internally you use the P-number. Internally, we always use the P-number. Unless with internally you mean in wikitext. This is the point under discussion: whether we want localized names for use in wikitext. You can use a text as long as the combination of label and description is unique. This combination may be useful. This is how we do it for items. This works quite well with a selector widget. It does not work inside wikitext - there, you either need a unique name, or rely on the plain ID. For items, sitelinks act as a per-language unique name. For properties, we decided to require a unique label, since we can't use sitelinks there, and the number is low enough (a few thousand, compared to tens of millions of items) that ambuguities should be rare. At the same time be aware that property labels will be wrong and will need to be changed at a later date. This is why we want to make aliases unique. If we have unique aliases, labels can change without breaking anything. When this presents a problem for the comparison with external sources, it is tough. It is best to indicate this from the start. Why would labels or aliases be used for comparison with external sources? Properties can be linked to external vocabularies via statements, just like we do it for items. Relying on labels for doing this would be asking for trouble. The argument about what happens in MediaWiki is secondary. And sorry that not everyone cares or knows about that in your way. The point is very much that at the scale of thousands and thousands of properties it does not scale. This point has been made plenty of times by now. Really? How and where? I only hear you asserting it, but I see no evidence. I see it scaling perfectly well on Wikidata. Property names already *are* unique, always have been. I know of no major problems with this. There are some issues with cultural differences and homonyms (e.g. the distinction between sex and gender, or the double meaning of editor in Portuguese), but these are relatively rare, and no worse than naming dicussions on Wikipedia. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
No we should not make the aliases unique, the reason aliases are useful is because they are _not_ unique. Add versioning to labels, that is the only real solution. There are books on the topic, and also some dr thesis. I don't think we should create anything ad hoc for this. Go for a proven solution. On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 13.07.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Ricordisamoa: I agree too. Also note that property IDs are language-neutral, unlike english names of templates, magic words, etc. As I said: if there is broad conseus to only use P-numbers to refer to properties, fine with me (note however that Lydia disagrees, and it's her decision). I like the idea of having the option of accessing properties via localized names, but if there is no demand for this possibility, and it's a pain to implement, I won't complain about dropping support for that. But *if* we allow access to properties via localized unique labels (as we currently do), then we really *should* allow the same via unique aliases, so property labels can be chanegd without breaking stuff. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
On 13.07.2015 16:01, John Erling Blad wrote: No we should not make the aliases unique, the reason aliases are useful is because they are _not_ unique. Add versioning to labels, that is the only real solution. Following this thread for a while, I still have no idea what this solution is. Could you give an example of how the #property function in Wikitext will look for this proposal? There are books on the topic, and also some dr thesis. I don't think we should create anything ad hoc for this. Go for a proven solution. Citation needed ;-) Markus On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 13.07.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Ricordisamoa: I agree too. Also note that property IDs are language-neutral, unlike english names of templates, magic words, etc. As I said: if there is broad conseus to only use P-numbers to refer to properties, fine with me (note however that Lydia disagrees, and it's her decision). I like the idea of having the option of accessing properties via localized names, but if there is no demand for this possibility, and it's a pain to implement, I won't complain about dropping support for that. But *if* we allow access to properties via localized unique labels (as we currently do), then we really *should* allow the same via unique aliases, so property labels can be chanegd without breaking stuff. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
No we should not make the aliases unique, the reason aliases are useful is because they are _not_ unique. They are still usefil if they are not unique because search is fuzzy : if you search “whatever” you'll see both “wathever one” AND “whatever2” in the results … 2015-07-13 16:01 GMT+02:00 John Erling Blad jeb...@gmail.com: No we should not make the aliases unique, the reason aliases are useful is because they are _not_ unique. Add versioning to labels, that is the only real solution. There are books on the topic, and also some dr thesis. I don't think we should create anything ad hoc for this. Go for a proven solution. On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 13.07.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Ricordisamoa: I agree too. Also note that property IDs are language-neutral, unlike english names of templates, magic words, etc. As I said: if there is broad conseus to only use P-numbers to refer to properties, fine with me (note however that Lydia disagrees, and it's her decision). I like the idea of having the option of accessing properties via localized names, but if there is no demand for this possibility, and it's a pain to implement, I won't complain about dropping support for that. But *if* we allow access to properties via localized unique labels (as we currently do), then we really *should* allow the same via unique aliases, so property labels can be chanegd without breaking stuff. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 13.07.2015 um 16:01 schrieb John Erling Blad: No we should not make the aliases unique, the reason aliases are useful is because they are _not_ unique. Add versioning to labels, that is the only real solution. We can do this once we have a mechanism in mediawiki that allows us to do this for templates ,etc. It's an extremely difficulat problem. So far nobody has been able to implement it, though it has been on the wishlist for a really long time. A timewarp feature for everythign would be really cool, but it's FAR harder to implement. It would requrie a rewrite of quite a bit of MediaWiki. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
2015-07-13 15:24 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: Am 13.07.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Ricordisamoa: I agree too. Also note that property IDs are language-neutral, unlike english names of templates, magic words, etc. As I said: if there is broad conseus to only use P-numbers to refer to properties, fine with me (note however that Lydia disagrees, and it's her decision). I like the idea of having the option of accessing properties via localized names, but if there is no demand for this possibility, and it's a pain to implement, I won't complain about dropping support for that. But *if* we allow access to properties via localized unique labels (as we currently do), then we really *should* allow the same via unique aliases, so property labels can be chanegd without breaking stuff. Providing this possibility IMHO is a good thing. If it is possible to allow this kind of access to data without generating the End of the Universe, I'm all for it. Then it *will* be difficult to deal with all the problems, but I don't think this is a good reason NOT to try to implement it. -- Luca Sannita Martinelli http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 13.07.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Ricordisamoa: I agree too. Also note that property IDs are language-neutral, unlike english names of templates, magic words, etc. As I said: if there is broad conseus to only use P-numbers to refer to properties, fine with me (note however that Lydia disagrees, and it's her decision). I like the idea of having the option of accessing properties via localized names, but if there is no demand for this possibility, and it's a pain to implement, I won't complain about dropping support for that. But *if* we allow access to properties via localized unique labels (as we currently do), then we really *should* allow the same via unique aliases, so property labels can be chanegd without breaking stuff. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Hehe, to be fair with this argument you would have to provide a concensus that people want aliases in templates :) That's also probably five people on a bugtracker :) 2015-07-13 17:38 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: Am 13.07.2015 um 17:22 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, Either you accept the consensus or you don't. Where is that consensus? Five people on a mailing list is hardly representative. Is there a do not use labels to access properties consensus across the client sites? I'd be happy to learn about it. Hiding behind Lydia is not graceful. I'm not hiding behind her, I'm aknowledging her prerogative as a product owner. I'd be out of line bypassing her on this. How often is it necessary to indicate that you CAN show localised names as long as they are the labels used in Wikidata and as long as they come witha text we have the needed functionality. Sure, for display, that's fine. For widgets on wikidata, too. We were dicussing readability of wikitext, though. It is just not the solution you have been looking for is it.. BUT it does satisfy our and Lydia's needs. Wonderful right? Using P-numbers in wikitext is not the solution I have been looking for? If it's sufficient for the community, I'm happy with it. It means exactly zero work for me. It would allow me to throw out some not-so-pretty code. Yay! I just don't take your word for it being sufficient for the community. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 13.07.2015 um 18:34 schrieb John Erling Blad: You have versioning for templates, it is the last timestamp your labels should refer to. You don't have to regenerate a previous template, you just have to figure out which labels were valid at the time the template was last saved. That timestamp is one additional column in your labels table. That is your time warp machine. You don't need a time warp machine for everything, to use your example. Works find until somebody renames or deletes a template, or oversights a revision, or there are multiple revisions with the same timestampt (yes, that is possible), etc. This has been tried, and it works ok-ish for the normal cases, and completely fails for edge cases, as far as I know: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Memento -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
I agree and find the whole idea to be just ridiculously overly ambitious for all the reasons Gerard has mentioned. In fact, I have to always click on both QIDs and the PIDs in Wikidata just to make sure I have the proper one, so why would I not do that from Wikipedia while developing a template? PID names may or may not be unique, but what has not even come up here is that their names are also the names of many QIDs. As more properties and items are added, this will only increase and the whole point of assigning numbers is to make life easier for everybody, including those languages that have not filled in the labels of QIDs and PIDs yet. On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Derric Atzrott zellf...@zellfaze.org wrote: I'm also of the opinion that this whole problem seems pretty easily solved by just using the PID numbers. If the only folk who will, in practice, make use of this functionality are template developers, it seems to me that they should be able to look up the PID numbers. I like the idea of using substitution to do the initial lookup for them. While I think that being able to reference properties by name in Wikitext would be nice, I'm not convinced its currently worth it. Thank you, Derric Atzrott On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 2:43 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, The drawbacks are that you make assumptions about languages. Also having localised names prevents the copying of functionality from one to the other. So I would not use it, I would show a localised name and its desctription but store the property identifier. Text in this is a service not to be relied upon. Thanks, GerardM On 12 July 2015 at 00:35, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 11.07.2015 um 23:21 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, If none of this is visible to users, the whole point of names of properties are senseless. Why have them in the first place and prevent this whole issue by using the property identifier itself. So, being able to use a localized name to refer to a property in wikitext is not useful? -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Hoi, You do not get it. There are many properties. Consequently the scale of things is substantially different. It has been demonstrated that languages will have homonyms and consequently it is NOT a good idea to use labels or whatever you call them for properties. You can use them as long as internally you use the P-number. You can use a text as long as the combination of label and description is unique. This combination may be useful. At the same time be aware that property labels will be wrong and will need to be changed at a later date. When this presents a problem for the comparison with external sources, it is tough. It is best to indicate this from the start. The argument about what happens in MediaWiki is secondary. And sorry that not everyone cares or knows about that in your way. The point is very much that at the scale of thousands and thousands of properties it does not scale. This point has been made plenty of times by now. Thanks, GerardM On 12 July 2015 at 15:08, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 12.07.2015 um 12:52 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, Sorry but this reaction is beneath you. Sorry for the annoyed tone. But I'm quite serious about the questions I asked. We localize magic words, namespaces, and template names. These are not visible to users, the localization is done for conveniance of people editing wikitext. So why should we not do the same with property names? What's the difference? And, if that localization gets in the way of portability as you argue, and is not relevant to the people who use these features, why don't we get rid of them? I do think that allowing access via (optionaly!) localized names is useful. But if it's not wanted/needed, it's fine with me, it would save me quite a bit of work. But I think that we should be consistent about it. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
This is at the cost of renaming properties becoming a burden, si this
overall increase the maintenance cost. Understanding the comment part on
the other band is a matter of reading the d'oc, which is the l'East we can
wait for coming from a template editor. If web think of users using for
example visual editor then ... It's notre a problème as VE will do all the
rendering and will translate into labels automagically. So ... Who are the
users who actually need this ?
Le 10 juil. 2015 00:14, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de a
écrit :
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Innovimax SARL innovi...@gmail.com
wrote:
Lydia,
If I'm not wront the substituion scenario covers your requirements
{{#property:Pxxx}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:MainLabelAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:UnambiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=unambiguous alias at subst time}}
{{#property:AmbiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY =={{ERROR}} == hence
the
editor can fix it
It looks like covering most of cases without adding extra burden of
unicity
and keeping existing mechanism
I think the comment part is rather ugly and I'd expect more confusing
for editors than it helps tbh. And substituting without the comment
would help the first editor but none of the ones after him/her. So I'm
not convinced this is a solution :/
Cheers
Lydia
--
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
OT: French spelling checker?
Il 10/07/2015 16:56, Thomas Douillard ha scritto:
This is at the cost of renaming properties becoming a burden, si this
overall increase the maintenance cost. Understanding the comment part
on the other band is a matter of reading the d'oc, which is the l'East
we can wait for coming from a template editor. If web think of users
using for example visual editor then ... It's notre a problème as VE
will do all the rendering and will translate into labels
automagically. So ... Who are the users who actually need this ?
Le 10 juil. 2015 00:14, Lydia Pintscher
lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de mailto:lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de a
écrit :
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Innovimax SARL
innovi...@gmail.com mailto:innovi...@gmail.com wrote:
Lydia,
If I'm not wront the substituion scenario covers your requirements
{{#property:Pxxx}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:MainLabelAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:UnambiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=unambiguous alias at subst time}}
{{#property:AmbiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY =={{ERROR}}
== hence the
editor can fix it
It looks like covering most of cases without adding extra burden
of unicity
and keeping existing mechanism
I think the comment part is rather ugly and I'd expect more confusing
for editors than it helps tbh. And substituting without the comment
would help the first editor but none of the ones after him/her. So I'm
not convinced this is a solution :/
Cheers
Lydia
--
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de http://www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Yep /o\ Getting used to my new phone
Not a problem was corrected into our problem in French, which is pretty
bad.
Le 10 juil. 2015 17:56, Ricordisamoa ricordisa...@openmailbox.org a
écrit :
OT: French spelling checker?
Il 10/07/2015 16:56, Thomas Douillard ha scritto:
This is at the cost of renaming properties becoming a burden, si this
overall increase the maintenance cost. Understanding the comment part on
the other band is a matter of reading the d'oc, which is the l'East we can
wait for coming from a template editor. If web think of users using for
example visual editor then ... It's notre a problème as VE will do all the
rendering and will translate into labels automagically. So ... Who are the
users who actually need this ?
Le 10 juil. 2015 00:14, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de
a écrit :
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Innovimax SARL innovi...@gmail.com
wrote:
Lydia,
If I'm not wront the substituion scenario covers your requirements
{{#property:Pxxx}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:MainLabelAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:UnambiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=unambiguous alias at subst time}}
{{#property:AmbiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY =={{ERROR}} ==
hence the
editor can fix it
It looks like covering most of cases without adding extra burden of
unicity
and keeping existing mechanism
I think the comment part is rather ugly and I'd expect more confusing
for editors than it helps tbh. And substituting without the comment
would help the first editor but none of the ones after him/her. So I'm
not convinced this is a solution :/
Cheers
Lydia
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Hoi,
My understanding is that it is machines that need to uniquely know what a
property stands for. People are quite capable understanding what a
combination of a P and a Q mean. At that time there is no disambiguation.
With proper descriptions it is not hard at all to choose the right property
when a new statement is made.
So really what IS the issue?
Thanks,
GerardM
On 9 July 2015 at 10:59, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote:
Am 09.07.2015 um 03:12 schrieb Ricordisamoa:
Il 08/07/2015 22:00, Daniel Kinzler ha scritto:
The idea was readability and internationalization.
Which one is more readable and internationalized,
{{#property:syntymäaika}} or
{{#property:P569}} ?
The former makes reading and reusing templates from other wikis much
harder.
Well, yea, localizing things always makes them harder to use by people who
do not
speak the respective language. I'd say the natural language name is still
more
readable,
since there are probably more people who know what syntymäaika means
than what
P569
means.
But I see your point, especially with regards to cross-wiki template use
(if we
ever get that).
If there is consensus to not use human readable property names for
accessing
data, and solely rely on IDs instead, we could indeed stop all this
right now,
and just drop the uniqueness constraint for labels as well as for
aliases of
properties.
Yes!
Can you point to a community decision/discussion regarding this? Is the
sentiment the same across several languages?
If this feature is *really* not needed/wanted, we can of course drop it.
Would
save a lot of trouble. But I'd want to be rather sure about that. After
all,
even MediaWiki's magic words like #REDIRECT are localized.
On a related note: what about the #property bit. Should that be
localized?...
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 09.07.2015 um 11:21 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi,
If that is the use case, not much changes. We are talking software. When a
property is selected, the software does not need to show the property number
and
still store it. Nothing new here. It does not need to change the label either
when Wikidata decides to change the label. A report may be produced to show
the
use of the old label... Again, nothing new here. It has been done and can be
done again.
So, the label changes. Later, the page that uses it on Wikipedia is edited. The
parser
looks at the #property tag, and sees a label that it no longer understands (how
would
it). The data transclusion is broken. Wouldn't it be nice if the transclusion
could keep working? Unique aliases would do that.
Alternatively, we could do what Ricordisamoa suggests, and just put the P-ID
into the wikitext. But then you couldn't easily see what {{#property:P1234}}
means when looking at the wikitext. If people are OK with that - fine!
Or we could just do away with wikitext completely. Then we wouldn't have this
problem. We'd use the ID internally, and the label for display and editing, just
like we do on Wikidata. But I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.
-- daniel
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Hoi,
If that is the use case, not much changes. We are talking software. When a
property is selected, the software does not need to show the property
number and still store it. Nothing new here. It does not need to change the
label either when Wikidata decides to change the label. A report may be
produced to show the use of the old label... Again, nothing new here. It
has been done and can be done again.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 9 July 2015 at 11:10, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote:
Am 09.07.2015 um 11:04 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi,
My understanding is that it is machines that need to uniquely know what a
property stands for. People are quite capable understanding what a
combination
of a P and a Q mean. At that time there is no disambiguation. With proper
descriptions it is not hard at all to choose the right property when a
new
statement is made.
That is not the use case under discussion.
The use case is accessing data from wikitext on the client wiki, using
something
like {{#property:date of birth}}. In order to do that, date of birth has
to be
unique.
For picking a property on wikidata, when creating statements, unique
labels are
not needed. That was never an issue, and never the subject of discussion.
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Daniel, Gerard, Lydia, and Wikidatans,
Long interested here in a Creative Commons' licensed Universal Translator
for all 7929+ languages (that is significantly CC Wikidata/Wikipedia-
informed between all its 288 languages) and that is extensible, and
especially with developing machine learning and voice etc., this Wikidata
conversation is GREAT because aliases of properties can be coded for the
unique multiplicity of connotations/denotations, almost infinitely, in any
given word (or meme even, as replicating cultural unit), and then be
recombined. In what ways can this discussion further anticipate a large
translator for all of Wikipedia's 288 languages 5, 10, 20 + years ahead, I
wonder, and with developing CC artificial intelligence? (Interspecies'
communication and related coding systems? Genetics' link to language use?
Brain neuron firing patterns to language use? Reflexivity and subjectivity
questions of consciousness down the phylogenetic tree, etc? ...each a
Q-item + ...all vis-a-vis CC AI?)
In what ways would a far-reaching and great Wikidata translator facilitate
far greater usage of Wikipedia and its sister projects?
Thank you,
Scott MacLeod
CC
http://worlduniversityandschool.org/
On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 10:39 PM, Daniel Kinzler
daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote:
Am 09.07.2015 um 14:22 schrieb Thomas Douillard: Substitution is a
standard
mechanism in MediaWiki and would achive what Gerard
needs ... for example:
{{subst:property_prime|date of birth}} could be expanded and
substituted to
{{#property:Pxxx}} --date of birth-- and everything would be stored
in the
Wikitext. What's wrong with this kind of solution exactly ? you did not
elaborate on that.
There is nothing wrong with that. If people on the client wikis think
this is
sufficient, and the {{#property}} parser function does not need to support
named access to properties, that would be fine with me. So far, I
assumed that
it would be very annoying to be forced to rely on IDs when using
{{#property}}.
But if that is fine with everybody, that's fine with me - supporting only
P-ids
there is much simpler than allowing access via labels or aliases.
Accessing only via the property's ID isn't enough.
Folks, we want more usage of Wikidata on the Wikipedias and other
sister projects. There'll be a few bullets we have to bite to make
this happen. I am convinced this is one of them.
Cheers
Lydia
--
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Product Manager for Wikidata
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:00 AM, Innovimax SARL innovi...@gmail.com wrote:
Lydia,
If I'm not wront the substituion scenario covers your requirements
{{#property:Pxxx}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:MainLabelAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=main label at the time of substitution}}
{{#property:UnambiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY
=={{#property:Pxxx|label=unambiguous alias at subst time}}
{{#property:AmbiuousAliasAtSubsTime}} ==SUBST BY =={{ERROR}} == hence the
editor can fix it
It looks like covering most of cases without adding extra burden of unicity
and keeping existing mechanism
I think the comment part is rather ugly and I'd expect more confusing
for editors than it helps tbh. And substituting without the comment
would help the first editor but none of the ones after him/her. So I'm
not convinced this is a solution :/
Cheers
Lydia
--
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Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 08.07.2015 um 13:11 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Technically there is no problem disambiguating. People are really good
understanding what a property means based on context. Machines do not care for
labels (really)..
For items, that is exactly hgow it is. For properties however, that is not the
case.
Consider {{#property:date of birth}}. That's much more readable than
{{#property:P569}}, right? That's why properties can be *addressed* by their
label, when transcluding data into wikitext. Properties have unique *names* by
which they can be *used*, not just labels for display, like items do.
The problem we have is that you cannot change a propertie's label, because you
would break usage in {{#property}} calls. Unless you keep the old label as an
alias. Which can only work if the alias is unique, too.
--
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Another way to formulate this is that The labels are our name for the
property and we can force them to be unique, while the aliases are
other peoples names for similar properties and as we can't control
them they won't be unique.
On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 1:43 PM, John Erling Blad jeb...@gmail.com wrote:
We will get clashes between different ontologies, can't see how we can
avoid that. Our label should be unique, but not aliases. We use
aliases as a way to access something that we later must disambiguate.
We should not have a uniqueness constraint on aliases, it simply makes
no sense.
On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Daniel Kinzler
daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote:
Am 08.07.2015 um 13:11 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Technically there is no problem disambiguating. People are really good
understanding what a property means based on context. Machines do not care
for
labels (really)..
For items, that is exactly hgow it is. For properties however, that is not
the case.
Consider {{#property:date of birth}}. That's much more readable than
{{#property:P569}}, right? That's why properties can be *addressed* by their
label, when transcluding data into wikitext. Properties have unique *names*
by
which they can be *used*, not just labels for display, like items do.
The problem we have is that you cannot change a propertie's label, because
you
would break usage in {{#property}} calls. Unless you keep the old label as an
alias. Which can only work if the alias is unique, too.
--
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer
Wikimedia Deutschland
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Hoi, I did appreciate that we are talking per language. When properties are to be unique and you do this for computing reasons and do not accept that languages are not their for your convenience, you will hit problems. My question, you have always known that Wikidata is multi language.. What research did you do to establish that you CAN make this requirement in the first place? Technically there is no problem disambiguating. People are really good understanding what a property means based on context. Machines do not care for labels (really).. Thanks, GerardM On 8 July 2015 at 10:27, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 08.07.2015 um 09:45 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, Given that we only support 280+ languages, I am fairly certain that this restriction will bite us. I strongly urge you to allow for it but monitor for it and see what can be done. Property labels are unique per language, not globally. They always have been. Properties can be accessed by their name (label) in wikitext, so they have to be unique. We now want to make it possibel to also access properties by their alias (otherwise, changing a property label will break all pages that have been using it). This requires property aliases to also be unique per language. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
We will get clashes between different ontologies, can't see how we can
avoid that. Our label should be unique, but not aliases. We use
aliases as a way to access something that we later must disambiguate.
We should not have a uniqueness constraint on aliases, it simply makes
no sense.
On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Daniel Kinzler
daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote:
Am 08.07.2015 um 13:11 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Technically there is no problem disambiguating. People are really good
understanding what a property means based on context. Machines do not care
for
labels (really)..
For items, that is exactly hgow it is. For properties however, that is not
the case.
Consider {{#property:date of birth}}. That's much more readable than
{{#property:P569}}, right? That's why properties can be *addressed* by their
label, when transcluding data into wikitext. Properties have unique *names* by
which they can be *used*, not just labels for display, like items do.
The problem we have is that you cannot change a propertie's label, because you
would break usage in {{#property}} calls. Unless you keep the old label as an
alias. Which can only work if the alias is unique, too.
--
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer
Wikimedia Deutschland
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 08.07.2015 um 09:45 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, Given that we only support 280+ languages, I am fairly certain that this restriction will bite us. I strongly urge you to allow for it but monitor for it and see what can be done. Property labels are unique per language, not globally. They always have been. Properties can be accessed by their name (label) in wikitext, so they have to be unique. We now want to make it possibel to also access properties by their alias (otherwise, changing a property label will break all pages that have been using it). This requires property aliases to also be unique per language. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
On 8 July 2015 at 00:27, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: Those need to be fixed before we can enable the feature. There is a bug. I have tried to make some changes to en aliases, but cannot save them, because there is a duplicate alias in some other language, which I cannot read. If the speakers of those languages cannot edit in English, we may never resolve this! -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Hoi, Given that we only support 280+ languages, I am fairly certain that this restriction will bite us. I strongly urge you to allow for it but monitor for it and see what can be done. Thanks, GerardM On 8 July 2015 at 03:42, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 3:07 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, It is not realistic from a language perspective to ask for labels to be unique. For items I totally agree. And that's not happening. But for properties I'd hope that would be possible. Do you have cases where it is not? Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
On 8 July 2015 at 09:05, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: we can add parenthetical disambiguators It also seems that some of these properties should be merged. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
On 07/08/2015 03:42 AM, Lydia Pintscher wrote: On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 3:07 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, It is not realistic from a language perspective to ask for labels to be unique. For items I totally agree. And that's not happening. But for properties I'd hope that would be possible. Do you have cases where it is not? Danish: far/fader (father). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fader#Danish fader (godparent) Alternative one could use the pattern 'fader (far)'? The 'fader' for 'far' is seldomly used though. /Finn -- Finn Årup Nielsen http://people.compute.dtu.dk/faan/ ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 08.07.2015 um 14:13 schrieb John Erling Blad: What you want is closer to a redirect than an alias, while an alias is closer to a disambiguation page. Yes. The semantics of labels on properties is indeed different from labels on items, and always has been. Property labels are defined to be unique names. Extending the uniqueness to aliases allows them, to qact as redirects, which allow use to rename or move properties (that is, change their label). Using (unique) aliases for this seems the simplest solution. Introducing another kind-of-aliases would be confusing in the UI as well as in the data model, and wopuld require a lot more code, which is nearly exactly the same as for aliases. I don't follow your example with the DC vocabulary. For the height, width and length properties, why would one want an alias that is the same for all of them? What would that be useful for? -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 08.07.2015 um 14:32 schrieb Magnus Manske:
Silly question: Why not leave the system as it is (allowing for non-unique
aliases), but do some (reasonable) cleanup, then warn Wikipedia editors when
they use a non-unique alias? Like using references without the {{reflist}}?
If aliases are not unique, you cannot use them to refer to properties. If you
cannot refer to properties by alias, then you cannot change the labels of
properties without breaking all usages.
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
I already said that on project chat, but the discussion is going on here as
well, so ...
Is it possible to give to the parser function a substitution semantics ? If
a name or an alias is replaced by a Pid on the first expansion, maybe be a
html comment on the original string used to find the property for human
readers, this would solve the label unstability problem.
If the label is ambiguous and cannot be substituted, then instead of subst
with a Pid, it may also possible to substitute with an error span
explaining it's ambiguous and suggesting the alternative properties ...
2015-07-08 16:52 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de:
Am 08.07.2015 um 16:43 schrieb Thad Guidry:
Or is the feature request to actually allow input that looks like
{{#property:date of birth}} so that folks do not even have to remember
numbers
or lookup the mapping ?
That's not a feature request, that's how it is designewd to work, and has
been
working for a long time. The change under discussion is allowing aliases
here,
in addition to labels.
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Daniel Kinzler says Consider {{#property:date of birth}}. That's much
more readable than
{{#property:P569}}, right?
Yes, it is more readable, but is it really all worth the effort ?
Perhaps allow input with the {{#property:P569}}
but then after page is saved... Computer Magic Happens Here ...
the tag then looks like {{#property:P569|date of birth}}
It magically inserts the label as well ... to support the feature request
of having readable properties ?
Or is the feature request to actually allow input that looks like
{{#property:date of birth}} so that folks do not even have to remember
numbers or lookup the mapping ?
Thad
+ThadGuidry https://www.google.com/+ThadGuidry
On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de
wrote:
Am 08.07.2015 um 14:13 schrieb John Erling Blad:
What you want is closer to a redirect than an alias, while an alias is
closer to a disambiguation page.
Yes. The semantics of labels on properties is indeed different from labels
on
items, and always has been. Property labels are defined to be unique names.
Extending the uniqueness to aliases allows them, to qact as redirects,
which
allow use to rename or move properties (that is, change their label).
Using (unique) aliases for this seems the simplest solution. Introducing
another
kind-of-aliases would be confusing in the UI as well as in the data model,
and
wopuld require a lot more code, which is nearly exactly the same as for
aliases.
I don't follow your example with the DC vocabulary. For the height, width
and
length properties, why would one want an alias that is the same for all of
them?
What would that be useful for?
--
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Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 08.07.2015 um 17:34 schrieb John Erling Blad: You asked for an example, end those are valid examples. It is even an example that use one of the most used ontologies on the net. Other examples from DCterms is coverage, which can be both temporal and spatial. We have a bunch of properties that can have an alias DCterms coverage, a country for example or a year. For cross-linking properties with other vocabularies, we use P1628 Equivalent Property, not aliases. I don't see how an alias would be useful for that. P1628 allows you to specify URIs, and it is itself marked as equivalent to owl:equivalentProperty, so it can be used directly by reasoners. Use a separate list of deferred labels, and put the existing label on that if someone tries to edit the defined (preferred) label. That list should be unique, as it should not be possible to save a new label that already exist on the list of deferred labels. At some future point in time it can be implemented some clean up routine, but I think it will take a long time before name clashes will be a real problem. That's the idea, yes, we just call the deferred labels aliases. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 08.07.2015 um 16:57 schrieb Magnus Manske: If aliases are not unique, you cannot use them to refer to properties. You can, if they are unique. That's exactly what I said :) For the few that would conflict, the user would see an error, prompting him to chose a different alias. People adapt quickly to this. That's exactly what we did, but had to revert, to allow people to clean up existing conflicts. Which is what Lydia's original mail was about. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
You asked for an example, end those are valid examples. It is even an example that use one of the most used ontologies on the net. Other examples from DCterms is coverage, which can be both temporal and spatial. We have a bunch of properties that can have an alias DCterms coverage, a country for example or a year. Use a separate list of deferred labels, and put the existing label on that if someone tries to edit the defined (preferred) label. That list should be unique, as it should not be possible to save a new label that already exist on the list of deferred labels. At some future point in time it can be implemented some clean up routine, but I think it will take a long time before name clashes will be a real problem. At some point I think we should seriously consider to use SKOS Simple Knowledge Organization System Reference http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-reference/ On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 08.07.2015 um 14:13 schrieb John Erling Blad: What you want is closer to a redirect than an alias, while an alias is closer to a disambiguation page. Yes. The semantics of labels on properties is indeed different from labels on items, and always has been. Property labels are defined to be unique names. Extending the uniqueness to aliases allows them, to qact as redirects, which allow use to rename or move properties (that is, change their label). Using (unique) aliases for this seems the simplest solution. Introducing another kind-of-aliases would be confusing in the UI as well as in the data model, and wopuld require a lot more code, which is nearly exactly the same as for aliases. I don't follow your example with the DC vocabulary. For the height, width and length properties, why would one want an alias that is the same for all of them? What would that be useful for? -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
2015-07-08 17:34 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: I think it might be possible, but not easy, and potentially very confusing. Why would you prefer that solution? Because of the property renaming problem. If unfortunately a property is renamed and someone used the label in a parser function call, then this might break templates. This might happen if a property is split, and we don't keep the alias on both resulting properties of the splitting because of the uniqueness of aliases constraint. Of course if the property is split there might need more drastic changes in the clients and templates, but relying on labels for stability when we have stable Pids to rely on seems like a half-baked solution to me. Especially when renaming is so easy in the UI. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Am 08.07.2015 um 18:45 schrieb Thomas Douillard: 2015-07-08 17:34 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de mailto:daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: I think it might be possible, but not easy, and potentially very confusing. Why would you prefer that solution? Because of the property renaming problem. If unfortunately a property is renamed and someone used the label in a parser function call, then this might break templates. Not if the old name is kept as an alias. Which seems the easier and more streight forward solution to me. This might happen if a property is split, and we don't keep the alias on both resulting properties of the splitting because of the uniqueness of aliases constraint. Splitting will always be a problem. Some usages will end up having the wrong P-id or name or label or alias or whatever. Of course if the property is split there might need more drastic changes in the clients and templates, but relying on labels for stability when we have stable Pids to rely on seems like a half-baked solution to me. Especially when renaming is so easy in the UI. The idea was readability and internationalization. If there is consensus to not use human readable property names for accessing data, and solely rely on IDs instead, we could indeed stop all this right now, and just drop the uniqueness constraint for labels as well as for aliases of properties. You are right that changing the name of a property shouldn't be as easy as it currently is. There should at least be a warning. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
The idea was readability and internationalization. This is achievable by keeping as a comment the label or alias the user used in the first place. I think for intl it's better to be able to share templates beetween projects ;) 2015-07-08 22:00 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: Am 08.07.2015 um 18:45 schrieb Thomas Douillard: 2015-07-08 17:34 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de mailto:daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: I think it might be possible, but not easy, and potentially very confusing. Why would you prefer that solution? Because of the property renaming problem. If unfortunately a property is renamed and someone used the label in a parser function call, then this might break templates. Not if the old name is kept as an alias. Which seems the easier and more streight forward solution to me. This might happen if a property is split, and we don't keep the alias on both resulting properties of the splitting because of the uniqueness of aliases constraint. Splitting will always be a problem. Some usages will end up having the wrong P-id or name or label or alias or whatever. Of course if the property is split there might need more drastic changes in the clients and templates, but relying on labels for stability when we have stable Pids to rely on seems like a half-baked solution to me. Especially when renaming is so easy in the UI. The idea was readability and internationalization. If there is consensus to not use human readable property names for accessing data, and solely rely on IDs instead, we could indeed stop all this right now, and just drop the uniqueness constraint for labels as well as for aliases of properties. You are right that changing the name of a property shouldn't be as easy as it currently is. There should at least be a warning. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Fixed for many items. Seems time to update that pages. Also I tried to fix it for these two, but it seems that as multiple languages have an issue of double aliases/labels, the software prevents me from saving both pages. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1451 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1546 I solved it by deleting the second one, changing the first one and restoring the second one again. Romaine 2015-07-08 1:27 GMT+02:00 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de: Hey folks :) Right now the property parser function on Wikipedia and other clients only works with the label of the property. People are asking us to make it also work with aliases. In order to do that labels and aliases need to be unique across properties. There are unfortunately a number of properties where the label and aliases are not unique. Those need to be fixed before we can enable the feature. Bene has created a page that lists all properties that need to have their aliases changed: https://tools.wmflabs.org/bene/alias-uniqueness/ If you could have a look at this and fix some that'd be much appreciated. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Hoi, It is not realistic from a language perspective to ask for labels to be unique. Thanks, GerardM On 8 July 2015 at 01:27, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hey folks :) Right now the property parser function on Wikipedia and other clients only works with the label of the property. People are asking us to make it also work with aliases. In order to do that labels and aliases need to be unique across properties. There are unfortunately a number of properties where the label and aliases are not unique. Those need to be fixed before we can enable the feature. Bene has created a page that lists all properties that need to have their aliases changed: https://tools.wmflabs.org/bene/alias-uniqueness/ If you could have a look at this and fix some that'd be much appreciated. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 2:39 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.w...@gmail.com wrote: Fixed for many items. Seems time to update that pages. It should be updating regularly. Bene: Can you check if it still does? Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Re: [Wikidata] property label/alias uniqueness
Will there be a warning when critical aliases are being removed? On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 09:28 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hey folks :) Right now the property parser function on Wikipedia and other clients only works with the label of the property. People are asking us to make it also work with aliases. In order to do that labels and aliases need to be unique across properties. There are unfortunately a number of properties where the label and aliases are not unique. Those need to be fixed before we can enable the feature. Bene has created a page that lists all properties that need to have their aliases changed: https://tools.wmflabs.org/bene/alias-uniqueness/ If you could have a look at this and fix some that'd be much appreciated. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata ___ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
