Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Hoi, The interwiki links to Wiktionary are from an interwiki point of view EXTREMELY easy to do. The problem with those links is that they cannot be uniquely linked to existing items to Wikidata and thereby it becomes unrealistic to do it in a meaningful way at this time. Wiktionary has one article for multiple lemmas in multiple languages and they are based on the way they are written NOT on being about a subject. Query is not the only thing that is missing ... Commons is more acutely felt to be missing than Wiktionary.. PLEASE DO NOT PROCRASTINATE and do something that is nice because someone proposed something similar. First get the job done and first make Wikidata usable for my siter, my mother in the way that Reasonator is and Wikidata is not. Please consider monitoring the use of Wikidata... More relevant than Wiktionary at this time Thanks, GerardM On 7 May 2015 at 08:00, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Would it not make sense to FIRST finish a few things.. Like Commons and Query ? One of the primary things Wikidata was supposed to do is manage interlanguage links for Wikimedia projects. That isnt finished until Wiktionary joins the other multi-language families in Wikidata. It looks like Task 1 of this Wiktionary-Wikidata plan will achieve that goal, and the migration will be extremely quick. Hooray! -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Arbitrary access is coming to the first wikis
On 2015-05-06 21:34, Lydia Pintscher wrote:
Hey folks :)
When using data from Wikidata on Wikipedia and other sister projects
there is currently a limitation in place which hinders some use cases.
Data can only be accessed from the corresponding item. So for example
the article about Berlin can only get data from the item about Berlin
but not from the item about Germany. This had technical reasons. On
Monday we will remove this limitation on the first wikis. This will be
Dutch Wikipedia and French Wikisource. (More will follow over the next
weeks. We hope to have it rolled out nearly everywhere by the end of
June.) We invite you to play around with this new feature if you are
one of the people who have been waiting for this for a long time. If
you have technical issues/questions with this you can come to
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Contact_the_development_team
A note of caution: Please be careful with how many items you use for a
single page. If it is too many page loading might get slow. We will
have to see how the feature behaves in production to see where we need
to tweak and how.
How to use it once it is enabled:
* Parser function: {{#property:capital|from=Q183}} to get the capital
from the item about Germany
* Lua: see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Wikibase_Client/Lua
Cheers
Lydia, who is very happy this is finally getting out
Great, on Wikivoyage we were waiting for this feature for ages.
Cheers
Yaroslav
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Citiranje Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: The interwiki links to Wiktionary are from an interwiki point of view EXTREMELY easy to do. The problem with those links is that they cannot be uniquely linked to existing items to Wikidata and thereby it becomes unrealistic to do it in a meaningful way at this time. Wiktionary has one article for multiple lemmas in multiple languages and they are based on the way they are written NOT on being about a subject. Would it be possible to ask the Wiktionary community to stop with this practice? I have never understood why is it done in the first place, never saw any benefit from it, nor known who came with the idea and why. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Arbitrary access is coming to the first wikis
We have a hackathon starting tomorrow morning (California time). It would
be fantastic if we could hack on adding our gene wikidata content to a
Wikipedia instance using this new ability. We too have been anxiously
awaiting this development.
Is there a sandbox environment somewhere that we could use to test
(tonight, tomorrow) before the roll out on Monday?
thanks
-Ben
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:13 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru
wrote:
On 2015-05-06 21:34, Lydia Pintscher wrote:
Hey folks :)
When using data from Wikidata on Wikipedia and other sister projects
there is currently a limitation in place which hinders some use cases.
Data can only be accessed from the corresponding item. So for example
the article about Berlin can only get data from the item about Berlin
but not from the item about Germany. This had technical reasons. On
Monday we will remove this limitation on the first wikis. This will be
Dutch Wikipedia and French Wikisource. (More will follow over the next
weeks. We hope to have it rolled out nearly everywhere by the end of
June.) We invite you to play around with this new feature if you are
one of the people who have been waiting for this for a long time. If
you have technical issues/questions with this you can come to
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Contact_the_development_team
A note of caution: Please be careful with how many items you use for a
single page. If it is too many page loading might get slow. We will
have to see how the feature behaves in production to see where we need
to tweak and how.
How to use it once it is enabled:
* Parser function: {{#property:capital|from=Q183}} to get the capital
from the item about Germany
* Lua: see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Wikibase_Client/Lua
Cheers
Lydia, who is very happy this is finally getting out
Great, on Wikivoyage we were waiting for this feature for ages.
Cheers
Yaroslav
___
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Arbitrary access is coming to the first wikis
Fantastic! You've got it. FYI, details of the hackathon are at: https://github.com/Network-of-BioThings/nob-hq/wiki/1st-BD2K-3rd-Network-of-BioThings-Hackathon Project ideas are being evolved at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AEzaMaH1NPBIS9Jg7xVPXbnAs4jlCXbmUk-eUAYkb4k/edit# thanks -Ben On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Benjamin Good ben.mcgee.g...@gmail.com wrote: We have a hackathon starting tomorrow morning (California time). It would be fantastic if we could hack on adding our gene wikidata content to a Wikipedia instance using this new ability. We too have been anxiously awaiting this development. Is there a sandbox environment somewhere that we could use to test (tonight, tomorrow) before the roll out on Monday? I'll give you a cute kitten and a test instance if you give us a nice writeup of the hackathon ;-) https://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitten_on_arbitrary_page Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Citiranje Yair Rand yyairr...@gmail.com: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. It has been discussed before numerous times over the years. I do not see this strong disagreement. The last discussion about it was at http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2014/February#Embrace_the_wiki and to me it seems that the majority of users support it. (Other discussions are listed at http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Per-language_pages_proposal#Past_discussions ) On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 1:17 PM, Smolenski Nikola smole...@eunet.rs wrote: Citiranje Jo winfi...@gmail.com: What you get on a Wiktionary page is a description of words in several languages with that particular spelling. Of course 1 spelling can also be several words in 1 language already. And why? Why not having a separate page for every language, while the spelling would just be a disambiguation page? This would be easier for Wiktionary readers, writers and for linking with Wikidata. 2015-05-07 12:03 GMT+02:00 Smolenski Nikola smole...@eunet.rs: Citiranje Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: The interwiki links to Wiktionary are from an interwiki point of view EXTREMELY easy to do. The problem with those links is that they cannot be uniquely linked to existing items to Wikidata and thereby it becomes unrealistic to do it in a meaningful way at this time. Wiktionary has one article for multiple lemmas in multiple languages and they are based on the way they are written NOT on being about a subject. Would it be possible to ask the Wiktionary community to stop with this practice? I have never understood why is it done in the first place, never saw any benefit from it, nor known who came with the idea and why. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Arbitrary access is coming to the first wikis
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Benjamin Good ben.mcgee.g...@gmail.com wrote: We have a hackathon starting tomorrow morning (California time). It would be fantastic if we could hack on adding our gene wikidata content to a Wikipedia instance using this new ability. We too have been anxiously awaiting this development. Is there a sandbox environment somewhere that we could use to test (tonight, tomorrow) before the roll out on Monday? I'll give you a cute kitten and a test instance if you give us a nice writeup of the hackathon ;-) https://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitten_on_arbitrary_page Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Hoi, The practice makes sense for Wiktionary. As a matter of fact I think I added quite a few with my bot. My point is not that it would not make sense, my point is that it does NOT easily connect to Wikidata. When a separate Wikibase is used for this ... fine. That makes sense. Thanks, GerardM On 7 May 2015 at 12:03, Smolenski Nikola smole...@eunet.rs wrote: Citiranje Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: The interwiki links to Wiktionary are from an interwiki point of view EXTREMELY easy to do. The problem with those links is that they cannot be uniquely linked to existing items to Wikidata and thereby it becomes unrealistic to do it in a meaningful way at this time. Wiktionary has one article for multiple lemmas in multiple languages and they are based on the way they are written NOT on being about a subject. Would it be possible to ask the Wiktionary community to stop with this practice? I have never understood why is it done in the first place, never saw any benefit from it, nor known who came with the idea and why. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Hi Denny, I would strongly advise against connecting Wiktionary to Wikidata in the status quo, mainly for the reasons Gerard summarized. While wikt's 'data model' probably makes sense for a spelling-based dictionary, it does not for a concept-based knowledge base like ours. Even turning Wiktionary into an OmegaWiki https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OmegaWiki-like project seems unlikely feasible without an intermediate step. Let's focus on Commons, OpenStreetMap, queries, arbitrary access, new datatypes? Il 07/05/2015 04:54, Denny Vrandečić ha scritto: It is rather clear that everyone wants Wikidata to also support Wiktionary, and there have been plenty of proposals in the last few years. I think that the latest proposals are sufficiently similar to go for the next step: a break down of the tasks needed to get this done. Currently, the idea of having Wikidata supporting Wiktionary is stalled because it is regarded as a large monolithic task, and as such it is hard to plan and commit to. I tried to come up with a task break-down, and discussed it with Lydia and Daniel, and now, as said in the last office hour, here it is for discussion and community input. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05 I think it would be really awesome if we would start moving in this direction. Wiktionary supported by Wikidata could quickly become one of the crucial pieces of infrastructure for the Web as a whole, but in particular for Wikipedia and its future development. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Task 1 as described on the proposal page isn't completely clear on how it would work. Would the generated items have Q-ids? Would it be possible to link Wiktionary entries to non-Wiktionary pages in the very rare situations that make sense (articles on particular series of (not-language-associated) symbols/characters)? Regardless, I think that doing Task 1 is a very worthwhile idea. The rest of the tasks, however, should probably wait until much later. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hey folks :) You're absolutely right that we need to focus on a few other things first (UI redesign, units, queries, arbitrary access, data quality tools incl watchlist improvements). However we also need to look into the future. Wiktionary support needs a lot of input to make sure we're doing the right thing. And it's good to give that time. So please do read the latest proposal Denny posted. It even has some mockups to make it easier to understand what it'd look like in practice. If we can get rough consensus that this is the way forward things will fall into place. And we'll not abandon the things I mentioned that are right now more important. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
What you get on a Wiktionary page is a description of words in several languages with that particular spelling. Of course 1 spelling can also be several words in 1 language already. It's at the level of the definition that one can link to the current Wikidata. Provided Wikidata wants to have entries for all those definitions. I'm not very active in Wiktionary anymore, but a template pointing to wikidata might make sense on the Wiktionary page. Of course you'd prefer to link in the other direction. I guess a separate wikibase with links to WD would be better. Can those query languages query across more than 1 wikibase? If they can, it may make sense to put our 'meta-data' of Openstreetmap in a dedicated wikibase too, but that's another discussion. Polyglot 2015-05-07 12:03 GMT+02:00 Smolenski Nikola smole...@eunet.rs: Citiranje Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: The interwiki links to Wiktionary are from an interwiki point of view EXTREMELY easy to do. The problem with those links is that they cannot be uniquely linked to existing items to Wikidata and thereby it becomes unrealistic to do it in a meaningful way at this time. Wiktionary has one article for multiple lemmas in multiple languages and they are based on the way they are written NOT on being about a subject. Would it be possible to ask the Wiktionary community to stop with this practice? I have never understood why is it done in the first place, never saw any benefit from it, nor known who came with the idea and why. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Forgive me, but at the 2014 WikiCon in Cologne, I saw a talk that would see Wiktionary converted to a separate wikibase installation, collapsing all the wikitionary languages into items. THAT could reasonably be linked to Wikidata, or just cross-references via properties. Trying to wedge the current links into Wikidata seems like a failing proposition. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:58 AM Ricordisamoa ricordisa...@openmailbox.org wrote: Hi Denny, I would strongly advise against connecting Wiktionary to Wikidata in the status quo, mainly for the reasons Gerard summarized. While wikt's 'data model' probably makes sense for a spelling-based dictionary, it does not for a concept-based knowledge base like ours. Even turning Wiktionary into an OmegaWiki https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OmegaWiki-like project seems unlikely feasible without an intermediate step. Let's focus on Commons, OpenStreetMap, queries, arbitrary access, new datatypes? Il 07/05/2015 04:54, Denny Vrandečić ha scritto: It is rather clear that everyone wants Wikidata to also support Wiktionary, and there have been plenty of proposals in the last few years. I think that the latest proposals are sufficiently similar to go for the next step: a break down of the tasks needed to get this done. Currently, the idea of having Wikidata supporting Wiktionary is stalled because it is regarded as a large monolithic task, and as such it is hard to plan and commit to. I tried to come up with a task break-down, and discussed it with Lydia and Daniel, and now, as said in the last office hour, here it is for discussion and community input. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05 I think it would be really awesome if we would start moving in this direction. Wiktionary supported by Wikidata could quickly become one of the crucial pieces of infrastructure for the Web as a whole, but in particular for Wikipedia and its future development. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
On 7 May 2015 at 11:57, Ricordisamoa ricordisa...@openmailbox.org wrote: Let's focus on Commons, OpenStreetMap, queries, arbitrary access, new datatypes? OSM in what context? Also, we should throw WikiSpecies into the mix. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
[Wikidata-l] Wikidata workshop at the OuiShare Labs Camp 18-19 May, Paris
hi! I have been offered to do a presentation of inventaire.io and how it uses Wikidata, possibly followed by a workshop on Wikidata at the OuiShare Labs Camp http://camp.ouisharelabs.net/2015, 18-19 May, Paris. Any one wanting to help animating the workshop? It's just a few days before the Wikimedia Hackathon, so it might just be on your way to Lyon :) Bests, Maxime -- Maxime Lathuilière maxlath.eu http://maxlath.eu - @maxlath Inventaire https://inventaire.io - @inventaire_io wiki(pedia|data): Zorglub27 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Zorglub27 for personal emails use m...@maxlath.eu instead ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. The lexical data in Wikidata does allow for statements on Lexemes and Forms, as the proposal states explicitly. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:25 PM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Given the opposition to having statements on the level of the label, it does not make sense to have Wiktionary included in Wikidata. Thanks, GerardM On 8 May 2015 at 06:19, Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.com wrote: I would disagree with requiring the Wiktionary communities to change their ways. Instead we should adapt our plans to fit into the way they are set up. Even if the English Wiktionary community would change to have per-language pages instead of the current system, it would be rather unlikely that all other language editions of Wiktionary would follow in a timely manner. I would prefer to leave this decision to the autonomy of the projects, and instead adapt to them (which is, by the way, what the proposal does). Yair, as Daniel said, the current Wiktionary pages would not be mapped to Q-Items. Since this was unclear, I tried to update the text to make it clearer. Let me know if it is still confusing. I do not think a separate Wikibase instance would be needed to provide the data for Wiktionary. I think this can and should be done on Wikidata. But as said by Milos and pointed out by Gerard, lexical knowledge does indeed require a different data schema. This is why the proposal introduces new entity types for lexemes, forms, and senses. The data model is mostly based on lexical ontologies that we surveyed, like LEMON and others. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:26 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Andy Mabbett, 07/05/2015 22:53: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. How many languages are currently used? How will this scale to ~300 languages? Hm? Last time I counted, the English Wiktionary alone used way more than 300 languages. Nemo ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
I mean, the lexical data in Wikidata according to the proposal would allow for statements on Lexemes and Forms. I slipped into the future for a moment ;) On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:32 PM Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.com wrote: I am not sure I understand what you are saying. The lexical data in Wikidata does allow for statements on Lexemes and Forms, as the proposal states explicitly. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:25 PM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Given the opposition to having statements on the level of the label, it does not make sense to have Wiktionary included in Wikidata. Thanks, GerardM On 8 May 2015 at 06:19, Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.com wrote: I would disagree with requiring the Wiktionary communities to change their ways. Instead we should adapt our plans to fit into the way they are set up. Even if the English Wiktionary community would change to have per-language pages instead of the current system, it would be rather unlikely that all other language editions of Wiktionary would follow in a timely manner. I would prefer to leave this decision to the autonomy of the projects, and instead adapt to them (which is, by the way, what the proposal does). Yair, as Daniel said, the current Wiktionary pages would not be mapped to Q-Items. Since this was unclear, I tried to update the text to make it clearer. Let me know if it is still confusing. I do not think a separate Wikibase instance would be needed to provide the data for Wiktionary. I think this can and should be done on Wikidata. But as said by Milos and pointed out by Gerard, lexical knowledge does indeed require a different data schema. This is why the proposal introduces new entity types for lexemes, forms, and senses. The data model is mostly based on lexical ontologies that we surveyed, like LEMON and others. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:26 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Andy Mabbett, 07/05/2015 22:53: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. How many languages are currently used? How will this scale to ~300 languages? Hm? Last time I counted, the English Wiktionary alone used way more than 300 languages. Nemo ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
I would disagree with requiring the Wiktionary communities to change their ways. Instead we should adapt our plans to fit into the way they are set up. Even if the English Wiktionary community would change to have per-language pages instead of the current system, it would be rather unlikely that all other language editions of Wiktionary would follow in a timely manner. I would prefer to leave this decision to the autonomy of the projects, and instead adapt to them (which is, by the way, what the proposal does). Yair, as Daniel said, the current Wiktionary pages would not be mapped to Q-Items. Since this was unclear, I tried to update the text to make it clearer. Let me know if it is still confusing. I do not think a separate Wikibase instance would be needed to provide the data for Wiktionary. I think this can and should be done on Wikidata. But as said by Milos and pointed out by Gerard, lexical knowledge does indeed require a different data schema. This is why the proposal introduces new entity types for lexemes, forms, and senses. The data model is mostly based on lexical ontologies that we surveyed, like LEMON and others. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:26 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Andy Mabbett, 07/05/2015 22:53: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. How many languages are currently used? How will this scale to ~300 languages? Hm? Last time I counted, the English Wiktionary alone used way more than 300 languages. Nemo ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Hoi, Again I do not care for lexemes and forms when they are distinct from labels. I hate redundancy. Thanks, GerardM On 8 May 2015 at 06:32, Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.com wrote: I am not sure I understand what you are saying. The lexical data in Wikidata does allow for statements on Lexemes and Forms, as the proposal states explicitly. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:25 PM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Given the opposition to having statements on the level of the label, it does not make sense to have Wiktionary included in Wikidata. Thanks, GerardM On 8 May 2015 at 06:19, Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.com wrote: I would disagree with requiring the Wiktionary communities to change their ways. Instead we should adapt our plans to fit into the way they are set up. Even if the English Wiktionary community would change to have per-language pages instead of the current system, it would be rather unlikely that all other language editions of Wiktionary would follow in a timely manner. I would prefer to leave this decision to the autonomy of the projects, and instead adapt to them (which is, by the way, what the proposal does). Yair, as Daniel said, the current Wiktionary pages would not be mapped to Q-Items. Since this was unclear, I tried to update the text to make it clearer. Let me know if it is still confusing. I do not think a separate Wikibase instance would be needed to provide the data for Wiktionary. I think this can and should be done on Wikidata. But as said by Milos and pointed out by Gerard, lexical knowledge does indeed require a different data schema. This is why the proposal introduces new entity types for lexemes, forms, and senses. The data model is mostly based on lexical ontologies that we surveyed, like LEMON and others. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:26 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Andy Mabbett, 07/05/2015 22:53: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. How many languages are currently used? How will this scale to ~300 languages? Hm? Last time I counted, the English Wiktionary alone used way more than 300 languages. Nemo ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Hoi, Given the opposition to having statements on the level of the label, it does not make sense to have Wiktionary included in Wikidata. Thanks, GerardM On 8 May 2015 at 06:19, Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.com wrote: I would disagree with requiring the Wiktionary communities to change their ways. Instead we should adapt our plans to fit into the way they are set up. Even if the English Wiktionary community would change to have per-language pages instead of the current system, it would be rather unlikely that all other language editions of Wiktionary would follow in a timely manner. I would prefer to leave this decision to the autonomy of the projects, and instead adapt to them (which is, by the way, what the proposal does). Yair, as Daniel said, the current Wiktionary pages would not be mapped to Q-Items. Since this was unclear, I tried to update the text to make it clearer. Let me know if it is still confusing. I do not think a separate Wikibase instance would be needed to provide the data for Wiktionary. I think this can and should be done on Wikidata. But as said by Milos and pointed out by Gerard, lexical knowledge does indeed require a different data schema. This is why the proposal introduces new entity types for lexemes, forms, and senses. The data model is mostly based on lexical ontologies that we surveyed, like LEMON and others. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:26 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Andy Mabbett, 07/05/2015 22:53: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. How many languages are currently used? How will this scale to ~300 languages? Hm? Last time I counted, the English Wiktionary alone used way more than 300 languages. Nemo ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Hi! I do not think a separate Wikibase instance would be needed to provide the data for Wiktionary. I think this can and should be done on Wikidata. But as said by Milos and pointed out by Gerard, lexical I am worried that having two different data sets within the same instance would be a problem for tools working with the data, and for humans too. And frankly, I don't see too much benefit - virtually all added value Wikidata has now is working with the assumption of the semantics of Wikidata values and properties. Everything that pertains to lexemes, forms, etc. will have to be built separately, so why do it within the same site and have all the mechanics act as a split brain? I would think having parallel instance of Wikibase would serve the same goal much better, while preserving all the benefits of using the Wikibase toolkit and basic data model. Ultimately, it's the same as having separate databases vs. having one huge database (or even one huge table) with columns marking virtual partitions - the former is much easier to handle if the sets are completely disjoint, as we'd have between Wikidata and Wiktionary, as far as I can see. Maybe I am missing some benefit joint structure would produce? -- Stas Malyshev smalys...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Am 07.05.2015 um 14:56 schrieb Yair Rand: Task 1 as described on the proposal page isn't completely clear on how it would work. Would the generated items have Q-ids? Would it be possible to link Wiktionary entries to non-Wiktionary pages in the very rare situations that make sense (articles on particular series of (not-language-associated) symbols/characters)? Task 1 (Interlanguage-Links for Wiktionary) would not involve Wikidata or Wikibase at all. It would be a standalone extension linking pages with identical names between wikis. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
It is of limited value (as Gerard explained) to do major work on Wiktionary. Wiktionary articles could be transferred to the structured data in the similar way like Wikipedia articles, with a lot of trouble. Thus not the most optimal solution. What makes sense is to incorporate OmegaWiki logic into Wikidata and create formal multilingual dictionary (vs. Wiktionary as philological dictionary). On May 7, 2015 4:54 AM, Denny Vrandečić vrande...@gmail.com wrote: It is rather clear that everyone wants Wikidata to also support Wiktionary, and there have been plenty of proposals in the last few years. I think that the latest proposals are sufficiently similar to go for the next step: a break down of the tasks needed to get this done. Currently, the idea of having Wikidata supporting Wiktionary is stalled because it is regarded as a large monolithic task, and as such it is hard to plan and commit to. I tried to come up with a task break-down, and discussed it with Lydia and Daniel, and now, as said in the last office hour, here it is for discussion and community input. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05 I think it would be really awesome if we would start moving in this direction. Wiktionary supported by Wikidata could quickly become one of the crucial pieces of infrastructure for the Web as a whole, but in particular for Wikipedia and its future development. Cheers, Denny ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
On 7 May 2015 at 18:27, Yair Rand yyairr...@gmail.com wrote: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. How many languages are currently used? How will this scale to ~300 languages? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Andy Mabbett, 07/05/2015 22:53: The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. How many languages are currently used? How will this scale to ~300 languages? Hm? Last time I counted, the English Wiktionary alone used way more than 300 languages. Nemo ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
2015-05-07 14:28 GMT+02:00 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de: However we also need to look into the future. Wiktionary support needs a lot of input to make sure we're doing the right thing. And it's good to give that time. Totally agree with that. There's plenty of work to do for the team, we all know that, but *one day* we'd have to figure out how to deal with Wiktionary. It's just something that *has* to happen. This doesn't mean at all it should become our first or only thought, everybody knows that there are at least two or three concerns that should have priority at the moment, but not even Denny was suggesting that. He was merely suggesting to restart thinking about something that, sooner or later, we'll have to deal with and to estabilish a break down of the tasks needed to get this done. Sorry for being blunt, but not even the Structured Data project for Commons - which is indeed a top-priority thing at the moment - would have started with this attitude. -- Luca Sannita Martinelli http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Would it not make sense to FIRST finish a few things.. Like Commons and Query ? One of the primary things Wikidata was supposed to do is manage interlanguage links for Wikimedia projects. That isnt finished until Wiktionary joins the other multi-language families in Wikidata. It looks like Task 1 of this Wiktionary-Wikidata plan will achieve that goal, and the migration will be extremely quick. Hooray! -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Hey folks :) You're absolutely right that we need to focus on a few other things first (UI redesign, units, queries, arbitrary access, data quality tools incl watchlist improvements). However we also need to look into the future. Wiktionary support needs a lot of input to make sure we're doing the right thing. And it's good to give that time. So please do read the latest proposal Denny posted. It even has some mockups to make it easier to understand what it'd look like in practice. If we can get rough consensus that this is the way forward things will fall into place. And we'll not abandon the things I mentioned that are right now more important. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Citiranje Jo winfi...@gmail.com: What you get on a Wiktionary page is a description of words in several languages with that particular spelling. Of course 1 spelling can also be several words in 1 language already. And why? Why not having a separate page for every language, while the spelling would just be a disambiguation page? This would be easier for Wiktionary readers, writers and for linking with Wikidata. 2015-05-07 12:03 GMT+02:00 Smolenski Nikola smole...@eunet.rs: Citiranje Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: The interwiki links to Wiktionary are from an interwiki point of view EXTREMELY easy to do. The problem with those links is that they cannot be uniquely linked to existing items to Wikidata and thereby it becomes unrealistic to do it in a meaningful way at this time. Wiktionary has one article for multiple lemmas in multiple languages and they are based on the way they are written NOT on being about a subject. Would it be possible to ask the Wiktionary community to stop with this practice? I have never understood why is it done in the first place, never saw any benefit from it, nor known who came with the idea and why. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
The Wiktionary communities tend to strongly disagree that splitting entries per language would be easier for either editors or readers. It has been discussed before numerous times over the years. On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 1:17 PM, Smolenski Nikola smole...@eunet.rs wrote: Citiranje Jo winfi...@gmail.com: What you get on a Wiktionary page is a description of words in several languages with that particular spelling. Of course 1 spelling can also be several words in 1 language already. And why? Why not having a separate page for every language, while the spelling would just be a disambiguation page? This would be easier for Wiktionary readers, writers and for linking with Wikidata. 2015-05-07 12:03 GMT+02:00 Smolenski Nikola smole...@eunet.rs: Citiranje Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: The interwiki links to Wiktionary are from an interwiki point of view EXTREMELY easy to do. The problem with those links is that they cannot be uniquely linked to existing items to Wikidata and thereby it becomes unrealistic to do it in a meaningful way at this time. Wiktionary has one article for multiple lemmas in multiple languages and they are based on the way they are written NOT on being about a subject. Would it be possible to ask the Wiktionary community to stop with this practice? I have never understood why is it done in the first place, never saw any benefit from it, nor known who came with the idea and why. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
Il 07/05/2015 16:03, Daniel Kinzler ha scritto: Am 07.05.2015 um 14:56 schrieb Yair Rand: Task 1 as described on the proposal page isn't completely clear on how it would work. Would the generated items have Q-ids? Would it be possible to link Wiktionary entries to non-Wiktionary pages in the very rare situations that make sense (articles on particular series of (not-language-associated) symbols/characters)? Task 1 (Interlanguage-Links for Wiktionary) would not involve Wikidata or Wikibase at all. It would be a standalone extension linking pages with identical names between wikis. It's ok then! I have been thinking about something like that for some time... ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Wikidata for Wiktionary
BTW, Daniel, there are standardized templates for real interwiki links (links to the entries with the same meaning in other languages on the same Wiktionary). It makes sense that Wikidata creates a db for that. Though, it isn't trivial and assumes meanings. Though, it seems to me reasonably possible. On May 7, 2015 19:32, Ricordisamoa ricordisa...@openmailbox.org wrote: Il 07/05/2015 16:03, Daniel Kinzler ha scritto: Am 07.05.2015 um 14:56 schrieb Yair Rand: Task 1 as described on the proposal page isn't completely clear on how it would work. Would the generated items have Q-ids? Would it be possible to link Wiktionary entries to non-Wiktionary pages in the very rare situations that make sense (articles on particular series of (not-language-associated) symbols/characters)? Task 1 (Interlanguage-Links for Wiktionary) would not involve Wikidata or Wikibase at all. It would be a standalone extension linking pages with identical names between wikis. It's ok then! I have been thinking about something like that for some time... ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
