[Wikimedia-l] Re: Joint Statement on Palestine

[Gnangarra]

Kaya

There is nothing I want more than peace, prosperity, and the freedom of
everyone everywhere to contribute. I'm wondering what specific actions this
statement is trying to achieve. The WMF has supported a call for access to
the internet.  None of the Projects are systemically deleting content on
Palestine nor is The Wikimedia Foundation requesting that knowledge be
removed.  The movement is just the sum of the effort us volunteers choose
to put in.

As for what is being written on the projects themselves, we contributors
are neutral and present all sides of the story without undue weight, the
WMF has no editorial control over that.  In all conflicts accurate,
reliable, real time reporting is lost as every side has an agenda including
those reporting in the moment which is why we dont allow Original Research.

So who decides what is accurate, what is impartial after the adoption of
these statements





On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 at 22:47, SCP 2000 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> It seems that very few people watch the talkpage, so I repost my comment
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Joint_Statement_on_Palestine#c-SCP-2000-20240413022700-What_WMF_should_do?>
>  here:)
>
> "*We call upon the Wikimedia Foundation to take proactive measures to
> ensure the safety of volunteers, communities, partners and knowledge and
> memory institutions from Palestine contributing to the dissemination of
> knowledge. We urgently request the Wikimedia Foundation to prioritize the
> unbiased dissemination of information and the accurate and timely
> documentation of the ongoing human-made humanitarian disaster and the
> erasure of cultural heritage. *"
>
>
> Previously, WMF published a statement
> <https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2023/12/05/wikimedia-foundation-calls-for-unrestricted-internet-connectivity-and-access-to-knowledge-in-gaza/>
>  to
> calls for unrestricted internet connectivity and access to knowledge in
> Gaza in December. The Human rights team
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_team> also published an a
> on-wiki statement
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Team/Impact_of_the_war_in_Gaza_and_Israel>
>  regarding
> digital and physical security best practices and the Internet Outages
> Guide <https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/10/25/the-internet-outages-guide/>.
>
>
> WMF is only an organization which hosts and support Wikimedia projects,
> rather than a Human rights organization. Thus, I am curious about the
> petitioner's thoughts on *what further action WMF should take to fulfil
> the requirements of this statement*. Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> SCP-2000
> https://w.wiki/_zgcU
> --
> *From:* Farah Jack Mustaklem 
> *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2024 12:00 AM
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List 
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Joint Statement on Palestine
>
> Dear fellow Wikimedians,
>
> On the 7th of April, a joint statement was published by Wikimedia groups,
> ally organization, and individual Wikimedians expressing concern over the
> humanitarian catastrophe in Palestine. The statement calls on "all
> Wikimedia groups, affiliates, allies, and volunteers to unite in solidarity
> with humanity and demand an immediate and lasting ceasefire to halt the
> tragic loss of life and destruction of Palestinian cultural heritage."
>
> Additionally, the signatories call upon the WMF to "prioritize the
> impartial dissemination of information and accurate, real-time
> documentation of the current human-caused humanitarian disaster and erasure
> of cultural heritage" and to "take proactive measures to ensure the safety
> of volunteers, communities, partners and knowledge and memory institutions
> from Palestine contributing to the dissemination of knowledge."
>
> Since the initial release, several additional groups and individuals have
> signed on to the statement, and others are kindly urged to do the same.
>
> The statement can be found and signed here:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Joint_Statement_on_Palestine
>
> Peace and justice for all,
> Farah
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Mopping with the tap open

[Gnangarra]

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Announcement: Farewell To Our Esteemed Programs Officer

[Gnangarra]

All the best Ruby, dont forget Wikimedians will always be here to
collaborate with you

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 at 09:59, Levi Kambai Timothy 
wrote:

> All the best, Ruby!
>
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2024, 9:35 pm Eugene Masiku,  wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I hope this email finds you well. Today, I am writing to inform you about
>> a significant change within our community. With mixed emotions, we are
>> saying goodbye to our esteemed Programs Officer, Ruby D-Brown.
>>
>> Ruby has been an invaluable member of our team, contributing her time,
>> energy, and expertise to the success of numerous programs and initiatives
>> during her time at Open Foundation West Africa. Her dedication and passion
>> have left a lasting impact on our community, and we are truly grateful for
>> the positive influence she has had on all of us.
>>
>> As Ruby embarks on a new chapter in her career, we want to take this
>> opportunity to express our deepest gratitude for her outstanding
>> contributions. Her commitment to excellence and unwavering enthusiasm have
>> been instrumental in the success of many of our programs.
>>
>> Thank you for your understanding and continued support as we navigate
>> through this transition. We remain committed to delivering exceptional
>> programs to our community.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Eugene Makafui Masiku,
>> Communications Officer
>> Open Foundation West Africa
>>
>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong

[Gnangarra]

_Plan/2023-2024#Our_approach_for_the_future
> [4]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_Curation/2023_Moderator_Tools_project#October_20,_2023:_Final_update
> !
> [5]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Watchlist#October_2023
> [6]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/Android/Anti_Vandalism
> [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Accessibility_for_reading
> [8]
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:WMF_support_for_Commons/Upload_Wizard_Improvements
> [9]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Future_Audiences#Sign_up_to_participate!
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Feedback invited on proposed requirements for affiliates & user groups recognition changes

[Gnangarra]

_Foundation_Affiliates_Strategy:_Summary_and_Report
>
>
> [3]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Affiliates_Strategy/Review
>
> Best regards,
> antanana / Nataliia Tymkiv
> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
>
> *NOTICE: You may have received this message outside of your normal working
> hours/days, as I usually can work more as a volunteer during weekend. You
> should not feel obligated to answer it during your days off. Thank you in
> advance!*
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong

[Gnangarra]

for the longer term.  But that
>>> would take significant resources, and we’ll need to weigh it against many
>>> other important priorities, like tools for functionaries, improvements to
>>> the editing experience, automated ways to stop vandals, etc.
>>>
>>> To be clear, if we do assign resources to the planning and building of
>>> an architecture for graphs (and other interactive content), it means that
>>> we are still at least several more months away from having a working
>>> Foundation-supported architecture.  Therefore, I think we should also be
>>> having the additional conversation that many others have brought up about
>>> what volunteers can do in these intervening months to make graphs somewhat
>>> available to users.  I know people are talking about that concretely on the
>>> Phabricator task, and I will join that conversation as well.
>>> For the bigger question, I would like to start with some more learning
>>> about which kinds of interactive content are important for our
>>> encyclopedia, and how our community members see the evolution of the
>>> reading experience on our projects.  I’d like to have some small
>>> conversations with many of you so that we can get into the details and
>>> ideas, joined by some of my colleagues.  I’ll start reaching out to see who
>>> is interested in talking – and please let me know directly if you’d like to
>>> talk.
>>>
>>> Thank you for weighing in so far, and let’s keep talking and planning
>>> together.
>>>
>>> Marshall
>>>
>>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:MMiller_(WMF)
>>> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940
>>> [3]
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024#Our_approach_for_the_future
>>> [4]
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_Curation/2023_Moderator_Tools_project#October_20,_2023:_Final_update
>>> !
>>> [5]
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Watchlist#October_2023
>>> [6]
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/Android/Anti_Vandalism
>>> [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Accessibility_for_reading
>>> [8]
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:WMF_support_for_Commons/Upload_Wizard_Improvements
>>> [9]
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Future_Audiences#Sign_up_to_participate!
>>> ___
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>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong

[Gnangarra]

>> to tune a guitar":
>> https://mathisonian.github.io/idyll/how-to-tune-a-guitar/, and the
>> readings about "reinventing human explanations" and so on:
>> https://explorabl.es/reading/. the sheer number of examples is saw out
>> of these links does not sound like there is a lack of persons who love to
>> do that.
>>
>> rupert
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are doing it wrong

[Gnangarra]

Kaya

I'd like to my perspective from wikimania side the amount of effort
volunteers and time to bring every session alive on commons is all
consuming yes YouTube is the best place to put that content.  It gets
harder the smaller the event is. Video needs to be addresses as a priority
along with issues raise by galder. Simple mp4 upload option would be a
starting point, surely we are big enough for any copyright holders to
donate the licensing if wmf comes made a request

On Wed, 24 Jan 2024, 2:44 pm Mrb Rafi,  wrote:

> +1 to Galder.
>
> Sharing a current situation.
>
> A significant number of non wikimedian photographers participate in the
> wiki loves X campaigns and since the upload process in commons is complex
> than any other site, most of them feel lost and don't retain.
>
> We are arranging wiki loves folklore in Bangladesh this year and we have
> prepared a handbook for the participants considering the above situation.
> The handbook has been uploaded to commons and now we're receiving feedback
> that our participants are feeling lost after visiting the description page,
> they can't decide how to view the pdf.
>
> Wikimedia commons needs a user friendly and intuitive pdf viewer asap.
>
> Best,
> Rafi
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 4:24 AM Ivan Martínez  wrote:
>
>> Thank you Yaroslav, I would very much appreciate a link to the discussion.
>> By not having a Youtube 2.0 we are avoiding a Wikipedia 2.0 with pure
>> encyclopaedic videos. I see a false dilemma there.
>>
>> El mar, 23 ene 2024 a las 16:03, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga (<
>> galder...@hotmail.com>) escribió:
>>
>>> Thanks to everyone for your comments.
>>> We don't need to worry about Commons being "Youtube 2.0", because we
>>> can't embed Commons video outside. Furthermore, we can't even embed Commons
>>> images or videos in Diff, because oEmbed is not working for Commons and
>>> Wordpress can't take directly images or videos from Commons. This has been
>>> known since... 2010!
>>>
>>>
>>>- https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T27854
>>>- https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T309101
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, the problem is not about this code or that specific piece of
>>> code. The problem is lack of direction, ambition and goals.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Galder
>>> --
>>> *From:* James Heilman 
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 23, 2024 10:49 PM
>>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List 
>>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are
>>> doing it wrong
>>>
>>> Yes we see this sentiment regarding a number of issues in our movement.
>>> The existing community wants to keep certain processes more difficult /
>>> time consuming to make sure that those involved in the process are
>>> sufficiently "dedicated".
>>>
>>> Maybe we just need a flag which can be given to allow certain folks we
>>> trust to use an easier process or only allow video upload by people with so
>>> many edits which can be removed if they misuse it?
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 2:38 PM Yaroslav Blanter 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Specifically related to video uploads, we had discussions on Commons on
>>> different strategic issues recently, in particular, about this. The general
>>> sentiment was, to my understanding (pls correct me if I am wrong) that
>>> Commons has no ambition to become Youtube 2.0 and we do not have any
>>> resources for this. If video upload is encouraged, very strict policies
>>> must be in force concerning of what is in the scope of Commons.
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Yaroslav
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 10:05 PM Brion Vibber 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Converting them to suitably compact files in h.264/aac in .MP4 format
>>> would be by far the simplest way. Use ffmpeg as we do on the server side
>>> for online playback.
>>>
>>> Conforming to the arbitrary Wikimedia prohibition on h.264 you could use
>>> mpeg-4 visual instead, still in .mp4 - afaik patents are expired and it'll
>>> play in standalone files (not in HLS)
>>>
>>> If you jump through enough hoops you might get vp9 working in HLS
>>> offline, but adaptive streaming may be irrelevant to offline use.
>>>
>>> -- brion
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024, 12:52 PM James Heilman  wrote:
>>>
>>> It would be amazing if one could play videos on iPhones when the videos
>>> are within ZIMs in an offline environment aswell. Brion not sure what
>>> barriers there are to this currently?
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:48 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>>> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Should read 2030 Strategy, not 2023 strategy, sorry.
>>>
>>> Paulo Santos Perneta  escreveu (terça,
>>> 23/01/2024 à(s) 19:41):
>>>
>>> I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. We are currently grappling
>>> with rather rudimentary approaches when it comes to uploading and reusing
>>> video and music files...
>>> The incredibly useful Graph has been down for quite some time. The
>>> extensive capabilities of Wikidata query representations, particularly with
>>> geolocated 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Hiba Abu Nada, RIP

[Gnangarra]

such sad news,

Rest peacefully Nada

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 at 21:33, Ndahiro Derrick Alter 
wrote:

> This is really saddening,
> RIP Nada
> derrick
>
>
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 at 14:45 Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
>> I just learned that a Wikimedian, Hiba Abu Nada, was one of the
>> casualties in Gaza. She was 32, and died on 20 October, during an
>> airstrike.
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiba_Abu_Nada
>>
>> May the region soon be at peace.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Recognition of Wikimedians of Japan User Group

[Gnangarra]

;>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_of_Wikimedians_of_Japan_User_Group
>>>>>>>> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Japan_User_Group
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [image: Logo comemorativo do Grupo de Usuários Wiki Movimento Brasil]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> João Alexandre Peschanski | Usuário:JPeschanski (WMB)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Diretor Executivo | Wiki Movimento Brasil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wmnobrasil.org
>>>>>>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: info and credits on labour (Was: Wikimania sessions now on Commons)

[Gnangarra]

Hi Zeljko

Video does require specific skills, better equipment, and good software;
it's not a common skill set or expense most contributors will invest
in, webm is less supported even by the FLOSS community. It's not about
being informed and transparent, its about having the skills, equipment, and
software then sharing or making it available to the community. We also need
to invest in presenting support and quality video recording using
microphones, tripods, and lighting.  The development of 720p through to 8k
has been rapid and its been focused on mp4 not webm

While it's still at very early stages I have started asking that video
editing resources be invested in if we are going to sustain hybrid events
as a core part of Wikimania and other events.  I have asked the Steering
committee to look at support capacity as well as some of the affiliates I
have volunteered with.

Most of the volunteers came from those that got scholarships as it was part
of the requirement that they support the event as a volunteer in some way.
Gisca is the amazing WMF staff member who supported the scholars and other
attendees with travel needs, as well as volunteer roles.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 at 16:11, Željko Blaće  wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 9:34 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
> > Hi Z
> > Gisca co-ordinated the process using a group of volunteers to cut the
> daily recordings into single events. Some of them did upload to Commons but
> the majority of that effort came from Butch.
>
> Hi Gnangarra
>
> I do not know who Gisca is (no such username), but from your input I
> see volunteers might remain anonymous (was that their explicit wish?).
> Good to see that Butch was able to close that part of work. I would
> still appreciate it if there is more info to be shared as openly as
> possible and credit all who worked on it in an adequate way.
>
> For example QW2023 (1,5 tracks on 3days x6-7hours with 2,5 languages)
> it took more than a week of work for a highly skilled professional
> just to get it to YouTube in a good way...we could do better and more
> still, but feasibility is something to discuss and will remain open if
> we can not manage these workflows in informed and transparent way, so
> it is possible to learn and advance, especially with Wikimania.
>
> Best Z.
>


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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Wikimania sessions now on Commons

[Gnangarra]

Hi Z

Gisca co-ordinated the process using a group of volunteers to cut the daily
recordings into single events. Some of them did upload to Commons but the
majority of that effort came from Butch.





On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 at 15:22, Željko Blaće  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 1:44 PM Johan Jönsson 
> wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > The videos from the Wikimania sessions are now available on Commons:
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2023_conference_video_recordings_by_day
> > Huge thanks to everyone who helped make them available – there were many
> videos to split, prepare and upload, a lot of work to be done.
> >
> > Best,
> > Johan Jönsson
> > Manager, Product Ambassadors
> > Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Thank you for the update!
> Great that it is done...any more info on the process?
> Who exactly helped and how much work was this to get to this?
> IMHO these individuals deserve more than just being 'everyone' and
> 'thanks' - no? ;-)
> Also if there is capacity it would be desirable for files to get
> linked data somehow
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Wikimania_2023_-_AfroCROWD_Talk_on_Wiki_Diasporas.webm=history
> or we just store on Commons as a free alternative to YouTube? Hope not.
>
> Best Z.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Launch of Justapedia

[Gnangarra]

edia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wiki Loves Africa] 2024 Theme Suggestions

[Gnangarra]

Flo makes a very good point about themes and overlapping or conflicting
purposes.  Is there a reason to find a new theme its 10 years since Wiki
Loves Africa began why not revisit an earlier theme its not like technology has
stood still, nor is the community the same people, and even the audience is
changing as a new generation of contributors are discovering us for the
first time.

Communities dont have to come up with something new every year, the aim is
about making it appealing to a new audience

On Tue, 5 Sept 2023 at 22:30, Florence Devouard  wrote:

> Hello
>
>
> I am going to comment on this one for I think it provides the opportunity
> to reflect on our global campaigns and collaborations-at-large.
>
> It is an excellent theme obviously. But one I would oppose we choose.
> There are several reasons.
>
> First, the initial reason why we decided to launch WLA in 2014. We had
> noticed that participation from the African continent at that time was
> terribly low. When awareness studies were made, it showed that the
> Wikimedia projects were yet very poorly known from the public (even the
> online connect public). We knew our first participants would be largely new
> to the wiki world. Our goal was to promote awareness of wikimedia through a
> regular, easy to grasp project, easy to participate drive. We also wanted a
> drive where anyone could participate regardless of whether there was a
> local team in their country or not. There were very few images from the
> african continent, so any theme would bring in content that would be an
> improvement. And choice of theme had to be a theme behind which a small
> team could cluster, regardless of political, religious etc. opinions. Our
> goal was not to simply "get images on Commons", but also to raise awareness
> on the continent, and to give the opportunity to small local clusters to
> start organizing something together and later become a usergroup, become
> integrated in the larger community etc.
>
> This is why the themes we chose so far were purposefully as inclusive as
> possible, easy to understand, could be joined by anyone. I do not believe
> "Living Heritage" fits into that category so well. If you ask the standard
> person in the street what "living heritage" is... chance is you'll get a
> puzzled look.
>
> 9 years later, an additional layer of complexity is that more photography
> contests born (such as Wiki Loves Folklore) or more "larger approach
> drives" such as "Wiki Loves Living Heritage".
> It already took us a few years to "make all photo drives" fit in the
> calendar (eg, Wiki Loves Africa changed its implementation months three
> times to accomodate other photo contests).
> I do not think it would be helpful to overlap with the other contests
> focus. In particular when Wiki Loves Folklore is already overlapping a
> couple of weeks with Wiki Loves Africa in the calendar.
> - First it would bring confusion to participants (so... what's the
> difference between x and y ?)
> - Second, it could bring tensions between the organizers of the two
> drives, such as on communications, banners... (been there, done that...)
> - Third, local teams would probably NOT "do more" or "do better". They
> would implement activities that would be attributed to both drives. You
> would end up with pictures taggued with both categories. It already happens.
>
> We would certainly "reach" some different people. Not all participants
> would be overlapping, nor activities.
> But would the overlapping and the tensions be worth the effort ? Would
> that be a good use of our collective time ? Would that be a good use of our
> shared funds ? I do not think so.
>
> Which is why... we try... every year... to choose a theme that tries not
> to overlap too badly with the other photo contest themes. This is in
> particular true to anything related to "folklore and heritage"  (= Wiki
> Loves Folklore, Wiki Loves Heritage) and true to anything related to
> "awesome landscapes and nature" (=Wiki Loves Earth).
>
> We gotta be smart, share the space-fund-energy-time, and collaborate when
> it makes sense to collaborate, but always keeping in mind to preserve or
> enhance the other great initiatives.
>
> Flo
>
>
> Le 05/09/2023 à 09:31, Gnangarra a écrit :
>
> What about "Wiki Loves Africa's Living Heritage"
>
> On Tue, 5 Sept 2023 at 05:16, Wilson Oluoha 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Wikimedians,
>>
>> The search for a theme for the *2024 Wiki Loves Africa* contest is still
>> ongoing.
>>
>> Please click the link below to share your thoughts on what you think the
>> next Wiki Loves Africa theme should 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wiki Loves Africa] 2024 Theme Suggestions

[Gnangarra]

;: *Santé
>+ Bien-être*
>- 2022 WLA <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Africa_2022>: *Home
>+ Habitat*
>
>
>- 2023 WLA <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Africa_2023> : 
> *Climat
>et météo*
>
>
> Très cordialement
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Who is the editor with the longest editing streak? Find out!

[Gnangarra]

oh I need an edit button

the fact they dont edit everyday does devalue their effort either.


should say "the fact they dont edit everyday* doesnt *devalue their effort
either."

On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 at 22:36, Gnangarra  wrote:

> I think sometimes we do get too wrapped up in the numbers because we can
> count them, and compare them, as a measure this is ever so slightly better
> than edit counts. Let's be honest, anyone who can survive multiple weeks on
> en.wp probably deserves a medal depending on the topics they haunt.
>
> Looking at my own I see some streaks are interrupted by swapping between
> projects and back again. Then as others mentioned before interruptions by
> travel a lot of which has been to support, promote, encourage newcomers, or
> do affiliate related work that isn't marked in machine readable boxes.  I
> would say there are many people who have similar commitments, the fact they
> dont edit everyday does devalue their effort either.
>
> Lets enjoy the novelty value, let's value the effort it takes to have a
> long streak while remembering it's taken a lot of dedicated people over 20
> odd years to get to where we are, and the movement will need many more
> dedicated people well into the future.
>
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 at 22:11, Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:
>
>> Indeed I believe my last break of an edit streak was when I was on a
>> plane / connection without wifi for more than 24h (going from Europe to
>> Japan). I normally edit every day since I have joined (15-ish years now),
>> but I am not so much addicted to edit-count so that I would plan my travel
>> taking this into account or pay for the internet during the flight when I
>> do not need it otherwise. Still, nice to have these streaks having been
>> acknowledged sometimes.
>>
>> Best
>> Yaroslav
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 12:19 PM Peter Southwood <
>> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a bit like edit counts, in that it indicates nothing about the
>>> value of the edits. In a way it is impressive that someone is so dedicated,
>>> but all the guy at the top of the list needs to do to crash and burn is a
>>> couple of days of inability to edit for reasons out of their control, so
>>> some luck is involved.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Yaroslav Blanter [mailto:ymb...@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* 28 July 2023 18:56
>>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
>>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Who is the editor with the longest editing
>>> streak? Find out!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, interesting, I am apparently a human #19 in the list.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Yaroslav
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 6:43 PM F. Xavier Dengra i Grau via Wikimedia-l <
>>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bon dia / Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there any available tool to precisely count how many days in a row a
>>> Wikimedian from a specifif project has been editing? The source that is
>>> linked in the Diffs page (
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_reports/Longest_active_user_editing_streaks)is
>>> only within the English Wikipedia…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone checked that there is no other user in the rest of the
>>> other projects (hundreds of them) with a similar or better streak, so that
>>> the sentence “the Wikimedian with the longest editing streak” is fully
>>> accurate regarding both language and Wikimedia project?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gràcies! / Thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Xavier Dengra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El dv, 28 jul., 2023 a 17:15, Natalia Szafran-Kozakowska <
>>> nszaf...@wikimedia.org> va escriure:
>>>
>>> *Read in عربي, bahasa Indonesia, français, Deutsch, español, Kiswahili,
>>> and Polish **on Diff
>>> <https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/07/28/more-than-5700-days-with-wikipedia-meet-the-editor-who-has-been-editing-each-day-for-15-years/>.
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Johnny Au <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Johnny_Au>has been
>>> editing every single day since November 11, 2007, which makes him the
>>> Wikimedian with the longest editing streak. That's more than 15 years or -
>>> more precisely - 5733 days of continuous editing!
>>>
>>>
>&

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Who is the editor with the longest editing streak? Find out!

[Gnangarra]

hare with other editors, he says: *Never give up. Fight the good fight.
>> We must fight against misinformation and disinformation.*
>>
>>
>>
>> Learn more about Johnny, his work (and this one time when his editing
>> streak almost broke!) on Diff
>> <https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/07/28/more-than-5700-days-with-wikipedia-meet-the-editor-who-has-been-editing-each-day-for-15-years/>or
>> on Meta
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/WikiCelebrate/Johnny_Au>,
>> as we WikiCelebrate
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/WikiCelebrate>his
>> incredible dedication to free knowledge. You can also leave some kind words
>> for Johnny on the meta page
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/WikiCelebrate/Johnny_Au>
>> and congratulate him on his amazing achievement!
>>
>>
>>
>> Johnny is one of the great people that have contributed so much to
>> bringing us to where we are today, and continue to do so. Each month we
>> WikiCelebrate a different Wikimedian, acknowledging the amazing community,
>> the pillars of our movement. We warmly invite you to write about the people
>> celebrated each month. If you know them, share some wiki love. If there’s
>> an outstanding Wikimedian that you think should be celebrated, recommend
>> them <https://wikimediafoundation.limesurvey.net/WikiCelebrate>.
>>
>>
>>
>> Happy celebrating!
>>
>> Natalia and Mehrdad
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Natalia Szafran-Kozakowska* (she/her)
>> Senior Global Movement Communications Specialist (European Region)
>> Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>
>>
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>> Virus-free.www.avg.com
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Query about membership to Wikimedia Chapters

[Gnangarra]

This is not the forum for WMAU to respond about private issues, it gets
more complicated with a legal avenue against WMAU being recommended.

On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 23:38, nidoxiv838--- via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Transparency and privacy protection are critical features of any
> organization, especially registered charities like WMAU. It is admirable
> that WMAU is dedicated to adhering to the Privacy Act 1988 and the
> Australian Privacy Principles, which protect individuals' rights.
> https://www.yelp.careers/us/en
>
> The proposed access request template displays a straightforward and
> professional approach to requesting personal information maintained by
> WMAU, such as membership communications and records. The template complies
> with legal requirements by mentioning the Australian Privacy Principles and
> emphasizing the right to access personal information.
>
> Andrew's statement emphasizes the significance of knowing the criteria for
> admitting or refusing membership, as well as the value of clear
> communication. His own experience of having his membership application
> denied without explanation raises legitimate concerns. It is critical for
> organizations like WMAU to react to member access requests and queries in a
> timely and appropriate manner. Open and honest communication builds trust
> and makes people feel heard and valued.
>
> WMAU can demonstrate its commitment to openness and fair decision-making
> by responding to Andrew's concerns and offering a suitable solution. It is
> critical that WMAU takes these issues seriously and works hard to preserve
> its ideals and duties as a registered charity.
>
> Overall, this blog post emphasizes the value of privacy and openness at
> WMAU. It acts as a reminder to organizations to address access requests
> professionally and swiftly, strengthening community confidence and
> responsibility.
> Links:
>
> Privacy Act 1988: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2019C3
> https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/australian-privacy-principles/
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Announcement] Establishment of Wikimedians of the Asia Pacific User Group

[Gnangarra]

Hi Aishik

For clarity, I am part of the interim ESEAP Hub committee, I have been
involved with ESEAP since its founding in 2012, and I'm part of the ESEAP
COT for Wikimania 2023.  Reading this and looking at the page you created,
what I see is a symptom of internal issues in Bangladesh and a decision to
up the ante on that by making this UG.   While you have some individuals
you dont have any connections to the ESEAP part of your plans, nor has
anyone reached out to the region.

People are asking you to drop the claim because of that lack of connections
and the serious overlap in efforts. You have said "We are also open to
excluding the region if it helps" please do that.

Sorry for being blunt but you have been missing the advice of other people,
please just put your effort into resolving the internal issues in
Bangladesh.

On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 07:27, Aishik Rehman  wrote:

> To everyone,
>
> Thank you for your continued engagement and valuable feedback regarding
> the establishment of the UG. We have carefully considered the concerns
> raised regarding the name and the inclusion of the ESEAP region. We are
> committed to addressing these issues and ensuring a conflict-free and
> effective user group.
>
> Regarding the name, we understand the importance of avoiding possible
> conflicts and overlaps. We are open to considering a non-geographical name
> that better represents the collaborative nature of our user group. We
> welcome suggestions and input from the community in this regard.
>
> In terms of the ESEAP region, we recognize the need for a balanced
> approach. We are also open to excluding the region if it helps mitigate
> conflicts and ensures effective collaboration. We seek serious advice and
> assistance from those with experience and expertise to help us navigate
> these considerations.
>
> To Rafi, we appreciate your input, but we want to clarify that we have no
> links or conflicts with Wikimedia Bangladesh. Our focus is on building a
> user group that complements and collaborates with existing affiliates. Your
> concerns regarding Wikimedia Bangladesh are not relevant to the
> establishment and functioning of the WAP UG.
>
> We invite all interested individuals to join us in finding solutions and
> shaping the future direction of the user group. Your insights, expertise,
> and assistance in making the UG conflict-free and effective are highly
> valued.
>
> Thank you for your continued support and engagement.
>
> Best regards,
> Aishik Rehman
> Volunteer, Wikimedians of the [?] User Group
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Deror Lin passed away

[Gnangarra]

Nyoorn

My condolences to Deror, family and Wikimedia Israel. He was a wonderful
person who welcomed everyone, Rest Peacefully.

On Sat, 6 May 2023 at 21:21, Bobby Shabangu  wrote:

> Sad news to read! sincere condolences to the family and friends.
>
> On Sat, 6 May 2023 at 14:53, pavan santhosh 
> wrote:
>
>> So sad to know. My condolences to the community and the family. For the
>> work he has done, he will be remembered forever.
>>
>> On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 4:29 PM itzik Edri  wrote:
>>
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>> I'm sorry to update that our friend and colleague Deror Lin
>>> (user:Deror_Avi) passed away this morning.
>>>
>>> Deror was a truly Wikimedian in blood who poured his heart and soul into
>>> the movement in many ways, even in his final days. He joined Wikipedia in
>>> 2004 and was one of the founders of Wikimedia Israel. For over 16 years, he
>>> served as an active board member.
>>>
>>> He was the driving force behind Wikimania 2011 in Haifa and a key member
>>> of the Wikimania committee ever since. He led countless programs and
>>> projects, both locally and internationally, including conferences, WLM
>>> competitions, educational programs, photo and editing contests, and many
>>> others.
>>>
>>> More than that, he wrote over 8,600 articles on HEWP (comprising more
>>> than 2% of it!), making him the number one article writer in HEWP,
>>> alongside more than 37,000 contributions to Commons.
>>>
>>> For his huge contribution and love for the movement, he was honored last
>>> year as the Wikipedia Laureate of 2022.
>>>
>>> Deror, you were not just a colleague but a true friend. We worked
>>> together on many projects, events, and initiatives over the years. No
>>> matter the situation, you always had a smile and shining eyes with your
>>> love for Wikipedia.
>>>
>>> *On behalf of Wikimedia Israel, I extend our deepest condolences to
>>> Deror's family and friends. You will always be remembered, Deror.*
>>> *ברוך דיין האמת. Baruch dayan ha-emet*
>>>
>>>
>>> Itzik.
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Pavan Santhosh.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Local enforcement of the Universal Code of Conduct

[Gnangarra]

ity members*
>>> *Issues of technical development*
>>> *Aspects of content contribution*
>>> *Cases of representing affiliates/communities with external partners*
>>>
>>> On the face of it, "public interactions" and "expressions of
>>> disagreement" would seem to include writings a Wikimedian publishes about
>>> another contributor in a journal, a newspaper, a blog, etc., or statements
>>> they make about them in press interviews.
>>>
>>> ArbCom on the other hand appears to have taken the view that the UCoC
>>> only applies to places "like Wikimedia listservs, affiliate zoom calls, and
>>> Wikimedia in-person events. But that doesn't include peer reviewed papers."
>>>
>>> So, the question I am now unclear about is: Are Wikimedians
>>> communicating about Wikipedia outside of Wikimedia spaces – from academic
>>> journals, newspapers and TV interviews to blogs and discussion forums –
>>> bound by the UCoC (and specifically Section 3.1) or not? Very specifically,
>>> are they permitted to share contributors' private information such as their
>>> workplace address in these various venues, without obtaining explicit
>>> consent to do so?
>>>
>>> Clarification would be very welcome. I feel we do need some guidance as
>>> to what the words in the UCoC are intended to mean in practice, and how
>>> much leeway local projects should have in interpreting its intent.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World_War_II_and_the_history_of_Jews_in_Poland/Analysis#Analysis_of_Andreas'_evidence_(UCoC_violation)
>>> [2]
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment#Posting_of_personal_information
>>> [3] See e.g. the GDPR-related explanation here:
>>> https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/consent/what-is-valid-consent/#what5
>>> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Next steps: Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) and UCoC Enforcement Guidelines

[Gnangarra]

I'm concerned on a few points;

The difference in the legal rights of individuals to disappear, as eu laws
vs us laws vs Chinese laws and host other countries. There is no equity in
ucoc outcomes

The disparities between a person's capacity make or defend a case based on,
language, experience, and community support or reputations

The moral dilemma of ensuring that the decisions taken without adequate
supports, equal rights, causing harm outside the community




On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, 10:41 pm ,  wrote:

> Peter Southwood:
>
> Your reply doesn't disprove Stella Ng's comment. Her comment was about
> "gaming the system", which is a more specific concept than WP:NOTHERE.
>
> But even if we're talking about WP:NOTHERE, the evidence doesn't support
> your claim. Let's look at the article titled "Wikipedia:Here to build an
> encyclopedia" (
> https://web.archive.org/web/20220430213703/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Here_to_build_an_encyclopedia).
> The intro paragraph states, "Because Wikipedia is a collaborative
> community, editors whose *personal agendas* and actions appear to conflict
> with its purpose risk having their editing privileges removed." The last
> paragraph of section 4 states, "Being 'here to build an encyclopedia' is
> about a user's overall *purpose* and behavior in editing Wikipedia." Those
> are statements about the intent of some editors. Without intent, there can
> be no personal agenda or purpose. Therefore, WP:NOTHERE is either the lack
> of intent to build an encyclopedia or the intent not to build an
> encyclopedia.
>
> When you block someone for WP:NOTHERE, you are, in fact, doing so because
> of their intent or lack thereof. You may use their actions as evidence that
> the block is appropriate, but that's different from not blocking them
> because of their intent.
>
> Sincerely,
> FlyingEagle95
>
> PS: I chose that snapshot because it was made shortly after your comment.
>
>
>
> Peter Southwood wrote:
> > When someone is blocked for NOTHERE, it is judged on what they have
> done, we generally
> > don’t care what they claim to have intended, as there is no way to prove
> or disprove such
> > claims. Cheers, Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Stella Ng [mailto:s...@wikimedia.org]
> > Sent: 25 April 2022 17:38
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Cc: H4CUSEG
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Next steps: Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC)
> and UCoC
> > Enforcement Guidelines
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> > I appreciate the questions and concerns regarding intent - I’m going to
> reference Jan
> > Eissfeldt here, the Global Head of Trust and Safety, and how he
> interpreted this concern
> > during the last CAC conversation hour on April 21st (
> https://youtu.be/3cd2FxovdXE)
> >
> >
> >
> > As mentioned previously, the UCoC was created to establish a minimum set
> of guidelines for
> > expected and unacceptable behavior. The policy was written to take into
> account two main
> > points: intent and context. It trusts people to exercise the reasonable
> person standard -
> > which indicates that based on a reasonable person’s judgment of the
> scenario, the
> > personalities behind it, and the context of the individuals involved in,
> as well as any
> > extrapolating information, could make a call on an enforcement action.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is not a new way of working for many of our communities. For
> instance, guidelines
> > against “Gaming the system” exist in 26 projects, most if not all of
> which refer to
> > deliberate intention or bad faith.
> >
> >
> >
> > We do not believe that the crafters of the UCoC were looking for people
> to engage in any
> > form of law interpretation or anything complex, but instead, to exercise
> their experience
> > using the parameters of what a reasonable person would be expected to
> tolerate in a
> > global, intercultural environment.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Stella
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 2:14 AM Peter Southwood peter.southwood(a)
> telkomsa.net
> > wrote:
> >
> > This question has been asked before, and so far no workable answer has
> been suggested.
> > Cheers, Peter.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: H4CUSEG via Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org]
> > Sent: 20 April 2022 19:44
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Cc: H4CUSEG
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Next steps: Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC)
> and UCoC
> > Enforcement Guidelines
> >
> >
> >
> > Stella, how are the community members who review situations supposed to
> establish the mens
> > rea of the accused? Intent is one of the hardest things to prove in
> criminal cases, and
> > we're going to rely on volunteers to get it right? We should not look at
> intent at
> > all, consider only the actual harm that occurred and focus on
> remediation, harm reduction
> > and rehabilitation in stead of punishing people.
> >
> >
> >
> > Vexations
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent with ProtonMail   secure email.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Odp: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour

[Gnangarra]

Hi Michał

I'm very much trying to disengage as well but I cant while people continue
to twist what I am saying.   I will try one last time, the suggestion was
made early in this discussion to sack staff in more expensive countries and
hire new staff in cheaper countries to do the same job. Such an action is
what is morally bankrupt.

I am not against hiring in any country, all people that the WMF hire should
be treated equally. Each should have the same employment conditions whether
its 6 weeks leave per year, 12 months maternity leave, or comprehensive
health care if it's good enough for one it's good enough for all

In a community where equality and equity are supposed to be part of our
goals by 2030, limiting job applications to only cheap countries is not
honouring that goal. It's suppressing the ability of people from those
countries to improve their lives, in time they too will be abandoned for
cheaper options.

The community decide that equitity was one one of priorities, we cant
achieve that if The WMF is not being held to those standards as well.

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 19:57, Michał Buczyński  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I did not want to prolongue this lengthy exchange but since it refuses to
> stop, and our Australian colleague keeps repeating on "moral
> bankruptcy"...  As a CEE person I would like to share a different
> perspective.
>
> Dear Gnangarra, I am pretty sure your messages come from good intentions
> but in fact they are pretty offensive for a lot of people on this list, and
> in the Movement.
>
> Firstly, like a number of other people on this list I work in a
> medium-income country for a multinational, and I find this narrative
> offensive. I don't think I am "morally bankrupt", nor that my employer is.
> Certainly, it could be nice to be priviledged and be born in a high-income
> country and work from there but the majority of the world - including a big
> chunk of the Wikimedia Movement - does not have this luxury. And dear
> Gnangarra, we need to work for a living, probably even more often that the
> high-income part of the world.
>
> In the past, people in my world had very limited options; now I believe it
> is much better, at least in some professions, to not be forced to migrate
> to another country and culture, take a very low-income job, or both (a sad
> fate of many migrants). In fact, I think my society wins as a whole when I
> can export my high value services and spend locally - and you can see it
> observing my country for the past 30 years.
>
> Secondly, I am not even sure why you believe that the working conditions
> are universally worse outside of e.g. the U.S. Actually, in many terms they
> are much better (considering US labour laws, amount of free days, medical
> and social care etc.). What less capitalized countries lack is firstly
> capital and high value contracts, and denying them jobs worsens the
> situation, not improves it.
>
> And is my income the same as in the high-income country? Not really
> neither now nor in a close future - but cutting me and others from the job
> market will make it even worse.
>
> Thirdly, before picking on Romania in this context, I would check actual
> working conditions there. Otherwise it is "westsplaining" "why you people
> can't have this position" at best, and perpetuating some unclear
> stereotypes at worst.
>
> Finally, I would like to remind that we are on a very difficult mission,
> with few resources, and probably fewer in the future. We need to be
> responsible to our auditorium, our members and our donors, and seek
> effectiveness and efficacy in spending. These decisions are always
> difficult, multi-dimensional and require a lot of good discussion. I would
> like to invite everyone to such discussions in an open yet friendly manner.
>
> End of my rant.
>
> from Poland with love,
> Michał
>
> Dnia 20 kwietnia 2023 10:21 Gnangarra  napisał(a):
>
> No, what I said was that firing people in one country then hiring some
> else in another country with the same skills to do the same job just
> because employment conditions are cheaper is morally bankrupt.  With that
> just hiring from certain countries because its cheapest with the least
> amount of conditions, is also morally bankrupt.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 16:02, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> So leave them to rot because their standard of living is low and their
> government is crap? Right.
>
>
>
> *From:* Gnangarra [mailto: gnanga...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 18 April 2023 13:49
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
>
>
>
> Hiring people because they are in such countries as 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour

[Gnangarra]

No, what I said was that firing people in one country then hiring some else
in another country with the same skills to do the same job just because
employment conditions are cheaper is morally bankrupt.  With that just
hiring from certain countries because its cheapest with the least amount of
conditions, is also morally bankrupt.



On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 16:02, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> So leave them to rot because their standard of living is low and their
> government is crap? Right.
>
>
>
> *From:* Gnangarra [mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 18 April 2023 13:49
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
>
>
>
> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
> money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
> travel.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone  wrote:
>
> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place, buying
> a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower salary (in
> USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and doesn't feel
> immoral, at least to me.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
> Romania or something)
>
>
>
> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum wages
> is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of our
> culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors regardless
> of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) 
> wrote:
>
> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>
>
>
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
>
> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the team
> was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of maintenance
> that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or worse, as
> even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can example a few.
>
>
>
> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why this
> situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's a
> few others off the top of my head:
>
>- Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>own.
>- Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams are
>afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members angry.
>- Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
>deprecate functionality.
>- Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>- Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature requests
>is not a roadmap).
>
> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And, not
> everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I definitely
> don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>
>
>
> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved, to
> leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
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> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
>
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
>
>
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe send an email t

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour

[Gnangarra]

The point here is that getting rid of staff in one country, purely to hire
someone in another country to do the same job for significantly less, is
morally bankrupt. The same issue goes with hiring new people solely from
selected countries for the same reason.  We are a global community and that
means we should seek out people regardless of their location or the labour
laws.

That also translates to other areas of the community, where we chose not to
even consider achieving equity in global activities. We need to do more to
balance equity through other means.

Yes this has drifted away from the pure software issues, being morally
loose "because we can" should never be the solution to any problem.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 20:30, The Cunctator  wrote:

> I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
> a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
> differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone  wrote:
>
>> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
>> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
>> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
>> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
>> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
>> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
>> wrong, but judging from
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
>> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
>> 16,000 a month.
>>
>> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
>> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
>> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
>> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
>> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
>> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
>> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
>> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>>
>>> or the 3am meetings
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
>>>> saving money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
>>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
>>>>>>> to Romania or something)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Gar

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour

[Gnangarra]

or the 3am meetings

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra  wrote:

> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
> money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
> travel.
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone  wrote:
>
>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>>
>>>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>>> Romania or something)
>>>
>>>
>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>
>>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer 
>>>>> (or
>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>
>>>>- Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that 
>>>> they
>>>>own.
>>>>- Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>angry.
>>>>- Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
>>>>deprecate functionality.
>>>>- Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>- Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>
>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>
>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved,
>>>> to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> ___
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/li

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour

[Gnangarra]

Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
money is morally bankrupt,  yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.  Much
like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
travel.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone  wrote:

> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place, buying
> a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower salary (in
> USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and doesn't feel
> immoral, at least to me.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>> Romania or something)
>>
>>
>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum wages
>> is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of our
>> culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors regardless
>> of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>> responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>
>>>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>
>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the team
>>>> was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of maintenance
>>>> that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or worse, as
>>>> even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can example a few.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>
>>>- Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that 
>>> they
>>>own.
>>>- Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams are
>>>afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members angry.
>>>- Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
>>>deprecate functionality.
>>>- Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>- Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>requests is not a roadmap).
>>>
>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>
>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved,
>>> to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> _______
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Boodarwun
>> Gnangarra
>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>> koortaboodjar'
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ___
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> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour

[Gnangarra]

>
>  Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
> Romania or something)


Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum wages
is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of our
culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors regardless
of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
responsibilities of the role.  WMF already has many employees that are
based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.

>
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana)  wrote:

> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
>
>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the team
>> was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of maintenance
>> that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or worse, as
>> even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can example a few.
>>
>
> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why this
> situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's a
> few others off the top of my head:
>
>- Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>own.
>- Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams are
>afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members angry.
>- Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
>deprecate functionality.
>- Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>- Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature requests
>is not a roadmap).
>
> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And, not
> everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I definitely
> don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>
> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved, to
> leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>
> Dan
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org



-- 
Boodarwun
Gnangarra
'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar koortaboodjar'
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Reflecting on my listening tour

[Gnangarra]

psScaler from Wikimedia wikis:
>>https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T290759
>>  * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T151393 (a non-public task)
>>
>> This is not a complete list. Plus there are also separate "waiting for
>> someone to make a decision" and "improving communicating & documenting
>> already-made decisions" categories which would be different lists.
>>
>> Of course there might be valid reasons not to look into some of this
>> technical debt (other higher priorities, high risk, complexity, etc).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> andre
>>
>> --
>> Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
>> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>> ___
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>
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Gnangarra
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Report on Voter Comments from UCoC Enforcement Guidelines Ratification

[Gnangarra]

I find it rather telling that the negative responses while recorded that
there is no indication of plans to explore or address these concerns. At
the very least a tokinistic inclusion in the email to say the WMF through
the Universal Code of Conduct project team will continue to address the
concerns raised.



On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 at 03:51, Patrick Earley  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> The Universal Code of Conduct project team has completed the analysis of
> the comments accompanying the ratification vote on the Revised Universal
> Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines.
>
> All respondents had the opportunity to provide comments regarding the
> contents of the Revised Enforcement Guideline draft document. A total of
> 369 participants left comments in 18 languages; compared to 657 commenters
> in 27 languages in 2022. The Trust and Safety Policy team completed an
> analysis of these results, categorizing comments to identify major themes
> and areas of focus within the comments. The report is available in
> translated versions on Meta-wiki here
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Revised_enforcement_guidelines/Voter_comments_report>.
> Please help translate into your language.
>
> Again, we are thankful to  all who participated in the vote and
> discussions. More information about the Universal Code of Conduct and
> Enforcement Guidelines can be found on Meta-wiki
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Project>
> .
>
> On behalf of the Universal Code of Conduct project team,
>
> Patrick
>
> Patrick Earley
> Lead Trust & Safety Policy Manager
> Wikimedia Foundation
> pear...@wikimedia.org
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Results of the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines Vote

[Gnangarra]

>
> Which of your arguments here depend on the result to be made?



   - The celebration of numbers, with no consideration or even evaluation
   of arguments
   - the distribution of votes
   - the small turn out
   - the failure of securepoll
   - even the lack of participation in process thats taken 3-4 years

The result is if we cant talk about a process and review its outcome, why
even start the process? This is the first of many formal authoritative laws
from the movement strategy 2030 process that began back in 2017. We
absolutely need to make sure that the intent of the planning is what we are
creating and that in doing so it brings the whole community along.

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 at 23:16, Chico Venancio 
wrote:

> >Unfortunately you cant talk about the outcome of a result prior to it
> taking place.
>
> Which of your arguments here depend on the result to be made?
>
> Moving goalposts after a vote has been taken seems very problematic, and
> may be at the heart of many of the issues we have with participation in
> these kinds of discussions.
>
> Chico Venancio
>
>
> Em sex., 17 de fev. de 2023 às 00:47, Gnangarra 
> escreveu:
>
>> Unfortunately you cant talk about the outcome of a result prior to it
>> taking place.
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 at 07:55, Chico Venancio 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a bit disappointed that we're discussing the results of a vote after
>>> it was taken, these things have to be voiced and discussed before the
>>> voting begins, not after a result you may disagree with has been tallied.
>>>
>>> Chico Venancio
>>>
>>> Em qui., 16 de fev. de 2023 às 19:51, Joe Sutherland <
>>> jsutherl...@wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>>>
>>>> Hi there,
>>>>
>>>> There are a few things I do wonder about, which are not clear from the
>>>>> conversation/statistics:
>>>>> - is the approval rating significantly different among voters from
>>>>> smaller projects than in larger projects? I don't know if the voting
>>>>> infrastructure even allows for such a breakdown.
>>>>> - are within projects, certain types of users over represented? For
>>>>> example, I would love some breakdown along tenure (how long have editors
>>>>> been around), rights holders (admin, arbcom, etc) and how those compare to
>>>>> the populations in their respective communities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately this kind of breakdown data isn't possible with
>>>> SecurePoll - that's by design, since the system anonymises votes as they're
>>>> placed. So there would be no way to know who exactly a "yes" or a "no" came
>>>> from in the data, and thus no way to get more granular data (at least as
>>>> things are set up right now).
>>>>
>>>> best,
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Joe Sutherland* (he/him)
>>>> Lead Trust and Safety Specialist
>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 at 10:59, effe iets anders <
>>>> effeietsand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree that these are valid concerns, as is the point that we should
>>>>> consider how the 'homewiki' (or whatever demographic you choose to follow)
>>>>> distribution across those votes impacts the outcome. I think there will be
>>>>> general agreement that more participation would be great (although I feel
>>>>> that I have to admit, that this time around I didn't vote myself: just
>>>>> didn't get to reading the proposals carefully enough this time.)
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a few things I do wonder about, which are not clear from the
>>>>> conversation/statistics:
>>>>> - is the approval rating significantly different among voters from
>>>>> smaller projects than in larger projects? I don't know if the voting
>>>>> infrastructure even allows for such a breakdown.
>>>>> - are within projects, certain types of users over represented? For
>>>>> example, I would love some breakdown along tenure (how long have editors
>>>>> been around), rights holders (admin, arbcom, etc) and how those compare to
>>>>> the populations in their respective communities.
>>>>>
>>>>> A turnout this size is maybe not a high percentage of eligible voters,
>>>>> but note that we intentionally set our eligibility criteria low. A low
&

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Results of the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines Vote

[Gnangarra]

ئا
>>>> تحياتي
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Results of the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines Vote

[Gnangarra]

I find it a bit disappointing that the count of numbers is being celebrated
here, and these numbers were released without consideration to any concerns
being raised.  On projects its the value of the argument not the number of
votes that matter.

FWIW - I recommended against the enforcement guidelines,


   1. potential for abuse by those that can write better, especially when
   it comes to people where the language isn't their  first language.
   2. the heavy judgemental process, lack of suitable support to the
   accused during and after the outcome. I doubt this quasi-legal process is a
   sufficiently robust process and that it never could be. Scenario: a person
   living in a country without LGTBI+ protections being attacked through this
   process by a cultural clique which ends in self harm or public
   identification and legal harm in their home.
   3. that enforcement isnt just blocking access to a website, its impact
   will be far greater and have life & legal consequences beyond the
   movement.
   4. it opens the door to bad faith government actors especially in
   smaller languages where controlling the narrative is paramount and well
   funded.

I do accept the UCoC as being a good policy, but the enforcement process is
leaping over the line of uncontrollable consequences and ultimately having
a chilling effect on positive neutral participation. We cant refectify any
errors this process makes even if those errors were made in good faith at
the time. Nor do we have the community resources to revisit and reassess
every action that was later found to have involved a person acting in
bad faith.

Regards
Gnangarra




On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 at 05:27, Risker  wrote:

> Just noting in passing that the SecurePoll default for "home wiki" is the
> project on which an account made its first edit.  A large number of editors
> who would consider their "home wiki" a different project (or even a
> different language entirely) made their first edit on English Wikipedia;
> the same is true of several of the other "large" Wikipedias.  The extended
> statistical information tells us that more than half of all voters met
> voting requirements on two or more projects.
>
> It's also noteworthy that the majority of Wikimedia projects have a very
> small group of contributors who would meet the voting requirements.Most
> editors who work on our smaller projects made their earliest contributions
> on a larger project, and that larger project is going to be considered
> their "home" wiki.  SecurePoll treats an account's edits wholistically,
> rather than project-by-project, and it does not record the location
> (wiki/project) from which an account has voted.  It should be noted that
> there isn't a lot of data provided with relation to our smaller projects in
> the statistical analysis.  This is appropriate as it could impact user
> privacy.
>
> As an aside, I am part of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee team
> looking at using SecurePoll for some aspects of ratification of the
> Charter.  We are already discussing with the team that is responsible for
> SecurePoll about some of these issues, such as users being able to select
> their "home wiki", results per project, expanding the available
> translations, and ways to maintain privacy for contributors to smaller
> projects.  We're also watching closely for relevant comments specific to
> the use of SecurePoll in this and other elections, and what improvements
> Wikimedians (especially those from smaller projects) suggest for
> SecurePoll.  Thanks, Xavier, for raising the issue.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 at 15:49, Stella Ng  wrote:
>
>> Hello Xavier,
>>
>> Thank you for your email, and sharing your observations and concerns.
>> Many other movement initiatives face similar challenges. Equitable
>> participation and engagement are something we are working to improve with
>> each and every interaction. The UCoC project team has poured a sizable
>> amount of discussion, planning and energy into outreach to the movement
>> throughout the process. The goal was to encourage participation from as
>> many communities as possible.
>>
>>
>> The ways the UCoC team encouraged participation can be seen through the
>> results of this work. The Revised Enforcement Guidelines are currently
>> translated into over 40 languages; voter information, banners, and emails
>> were also heavily translated. The project team hosted outreach and
>> conversation hours throughout the drafting process. We have made it a point
>> to invite and engage with many communities, particularly small and
>> medium-sized, and it is our goal to continue to ensure that the growing
>> communities and small language wik

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT

[Gnangarra]

cle poisoned the well when it comes to a
> Wikipedia search engine, because we could definitely do a lot to learn from
> what people like about ChatGPT and apply to Wikipedia search.
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: @Wikipedia losing opportunities in Twitter

[Gnangarra]

Kaya Galder

The assumption that despite there being a wider audience the interests of
those audience members is exactly the same, if that was true why have
multiple channels.  What I am saying is that in different communities that
doesnt and will never hold true.  Using statistics to compare the two is
the issue and then complaining about different audience responses to the
same event being caused by those posting to the channel. Its not the
channel operators, it's the underlying expectation that all audiences are
the same and react exactly the same way every time even as the audience is
increasing by many orders of magnitude.

Boodarwun

On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 at 02:06, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> @Gnangarra: I would doubt on the idea that Pelé is not relevant to the
> English audience, as it was the most visited article by far that day (
> https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/topviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org=all-access=2022-12-29=),
> and the second most visited next day, just after the less known Andrew
> Tate. Also, the account is not ENGLISH Wikipedia. Is called Wikipedia, so
> it should take into account, even if it tweets only about English Wikipedia
> (as pointed by @Xavier Dengra) a global audience. Because, again, the goal
> is *"By 2030, Wikimedia is to become the central infrastructure for Free
> Knowledge on the Internet."*. Not only for US centered people, but by a
> global audience. Even with that in mind, Pelé was the most visited article
> in English Wikipedia.
>
> @Yaroslav: Basque Wikipedia is not one of the few accounts tweeting about
> Pelé, and in perspective, there are more Basque tweeting accounts per
> speaker, than there are for other larger languages. We are not competing
> with major news outlets; we are competing to be "the central infrastructure
> for Free Knowledge on the Internet". Wikipedia is doing well on that:
> nearly 2,5 million visits in two days for the article about Pelé only in
> English. I think that there may be very few web services having 2,5 million
> visits for a page about Pelé in two days, if there's any. Also, next day
> the most visited article was about Andrew Tate. So, you are right: we are
> not a news outlet, but we are visited according to the news. Any strategy
> that doesn't have this in mind, will fail.
>
> You also ask how many tweets a day would be enough. I don't have an answer
> for this. I would like the communications team to come with one, but they
> don't seem either to have one. I don't think that tweeting every hour is
> better, but I'll explain why one tweet per day is a bad strategy, based
> only in what we know about the Twitter algorithm:
>
>- The Twitter algorithm tends to show a tweet to followers and others
>more often if it gets more engagements (RTs, likes, comments...). So,
>maximizing engagements seems a something positive if we want to reach to
>new people.
>- It also shows an account more often if the user interacts with it.
>If someone likes, RTs or comments a tweet, it seems that this account will
>be shown again soon. That's why you see more often tweets from your friends
>than others. And that's why ideological bubbles are created.
>- If people are engaged with a tweet, it will be shown more regularly
>after a tweet by other people you follow once you scroll down. This is why
>if you open a tweet by a far-right politician, you will see below other
>tweets by far-right sided politicians and the opposite for left,
>libertarian, green or vegans. It shows you similar content, based on
>people's interaction.
>
> So, tweeting more doesn't maximize engagement (if you tweet every minute,
> you will lose it), but tweeting less minimizes engagement. If you only
> tweet once a day, and you don't get too much attention, your next tweet
> will be less important for the algorithm, and so on. The only valid
> strategy is one that gets people engaged to your tweet, so you get more
> impressions, and this drives more interactions, and this drives more
> followers. Because, at the end of the day, we want to be "the central
> infrastructure for Free Knowledge on the Internet".
>
> I don't know how much is the ideal thing. In Basque Wikipedia our strategy
> is to publish 5-6 tweets every day, and then also interact with people
> talking about Wikipedia or speaking about articles they have created (like
> @viquipedia does, with great success). Our topics from the 5-6 daily tweets
> now (2023) are like this: every morning (yes, most of our followers live in
> the same time-zone) a biography of someone who was born/died on this day;
> then, something that happened 100 years ago. At noon, an artwork. If the
> artwork is depicting something inte

[Wikimedia-l] Re: @Wikipedia losing opportunities in Twitter

[Gnangarra]

guage (
> https://umap.eus/ranking/gizartea) and the 10th most influential account
> in all categories (https://umap.eus/ranking/orokorra). This is a good
> metric we use to know if we are doing fine or not.
>
> Sincerely,
> Galder
>
> --
> *From:* Andy Mabbett 
> *Sent:* Friday, August 5, 2022 8:50 PM
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List 
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: @Wikipedia losing opportunities in Twitter
>
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 at 18:48, Lauren Dickinson 
> wrote:
>
> > Also, Andy, we will follow up this week regarding your questions
> > about the @WiktionaryUsers and @Wiktionary accounts.
>
> Three working weeks have passed since the above was written; I've seen
> no such follow-up. Have I missed something?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> https://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Saudi Arabia jails two Wikipedia staff [SIC] in ‘bid to control content’

[Gnangarra]

arrested in 2020, sentenced recently

On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 at 14:10, Aleksey Chalabyan  wrote:

> Wait, jailing happened 2,3 years ago in  September 2020, and we only learn
> it now or is there a typo?
>
> Best,
> Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen
>
> 2023 թ. հնվ 6, ուր, 2:45 Andy Mabbett 
> օգտատերը գրել է․
>
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jan/05/saudi-arabia-jails-two-wikipedia-staff-in-bid-to-control-content
>>
>> "Administrators jailed for 32 years, and eight years, as activists
>> warn of ploy to infiltrate website... Two high-ranking “admins” –
>> volunteer administrators with privileged access to Wikipedia,
>> including the ability to edit fully protected pages – have been
>> imprisoned since they were arrested on the same day in September
>> 2020..."
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT

[Gnangarra]

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: ChatGPT and Wikipedia

[Gnangarra]

AI simply cant descriminate between good research and faked research, for
any outcome it must provide all of its sources whether they are from
Wikipedia, Wikidata, WikiCommons, WikiSource or some other place.
Otherwise it will answer yes to some asking if the world is flat because
it'll seek out that answer and find all the nonsense that has been produced.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 06:02, Erik Moeller  wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 5:55 AM Anders Wennersten
>  wrote:
> > ChatGPT is now making headlines more or less every day  and I perceive
> > them to try to position themself  av the "next" google.
>
> I suspect OpenAI will continue to focus on generative applications
> (images, code, text for purposes such as copywriting, eventually
> music/video) and won't attempt to compete with Google directly, but
> we'll see. Currently GPT-3.5 (which ChatGPT is based on) is very prone
> to generating nonsensical answers, citations to works that don't
> exist, etc. But it is pretty cool if you keep its limitations in
> mind--for example, it's quite good at bootstrapping small scripts in
> various programming languages (with mistakes and idiosyncrasies).
>
> Google has one of the largest AI research programs on the planet, they
> just are extremely conservative about letting anyone try their models
> (due to reputational concerns, e.g., that generative AI will spit out
> racist output within about 30 seconds of people poking its
> guardrails). This blog post from September is instructive about the
> direction they're taking with what's called retrieval-augmented
> generation; see the paper linked from the post for details:
>
> https://www.deepmind.com/blog/building-safer-dialogue-agents (DeepMind
> is part of Google)
>
> That is likely to yield significantly more accurate answers than what
> ChatGPT is doing, and is difficult to replicate for folks like OpenAI
> without being dependent on the search APIs of big search companies.
> It's worth noting that Google has also started to incorporate language
> model tooling into how it's presenting search results (e.g.,
> summarizing or highlighting different parts of a website to make the
> result snippet more useful).
>
> A retrieval-augmented approach that leverages Wikidata could IMO be
> quite powerful and could be a useful research program for Wikimedia to
> pursue, be it independently or in partnership with others. The
> resulting technology should of course be fully open source.
>
> Querying Wikidata via SPARQL is currently still a bit of wizardry (and
> the query builder is extremely limited). To pick a completely random
> example not at all inspired by current events, if I wanted to see a
> list of journalists with Mastodon accounts & a picture, I currently
> have to do this:
>
> SELECT DISTINCT ?personLabel ?mastodonName ?pic
> WHERE {
>   ?person wdt:P4033 ?mastodonName ;
> wdt:P106 ?occupation .
>   OPTIONAL { ?person wdt:P18 ?pic . }
>   ?occupation wdt:P279* wd:Q1930187 .
>SERVICE wikibase:label {
>  bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "en"
>}
> }
>
> Make a small mistake (a curly brace missing) and you'll get a red
> error message. Forgot the * after wdt:P279? A different response set
> in ways that are difficult to spot or reason about.
>
> Why can't I type "list of journalists with their picture and Mastodon
> account" as a natural language query? (You can try it in ChatGPT and
> it'll get you started, but it'll generate nonsense P/Q numbers.) If
> such queries could be produced reliably, it could be a very useful
> tool for readers as well.
>
> Warmly,
> Erik
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reminder – expressions of interest for Wikimania 2024 and 2025 (deadline December 16th)

[Gnangarra]

Wikimania is fully funded by the WMF

On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 19:38, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> I can't find any resource on budgeting. Is Wikimania fully supported, or
> local organizers should have a big budget for the event? Would it be
> possible to find some information on this?
>
> Thanks
>
> Galder
> --
> *From:* Iolanda Pensa 
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 10, 2022 12:25 PM
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List 
> *Cc:* phoebe ayers 
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Reminder – expressions of interest for Wikimania
> 2024 and 2025 (deadline December 16th)
>
> Dear all,
> Wikimania is an extraordinary event: consider hosting it!!
>
> By December 16th express your interest in hosting Wikimania in 2024, 2025
> and beyond
> https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2024:Expressions_of_Interest
>
> You don’t need to have a venue secured or event logistics in place, that’s
> something we will work on together. At this point, we are primarily seeking
> your expression of interest. Hosting an international event with the size
> and magnitude of Wikimania – and now with added distributed and hybrid
> participation models – is complicated. With resources from the Foundation
> and guidance from the Wikimania Steering Committee, you will also have
> access to professional event organizers on the ground that can support this
> work. We also plan for an overlap with the current Wikimania 2023
> organizing team to build in plenty of time for learning and
> collaboration.
>
> Looking forward to discuss with you new locations for our future Wikimanias
>
> Best regards,
> Iolanda, on behalf of the Wikimania Steering Committee
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee#Members
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Save the Date: Curationist Launch Celebration and Webinar

[Gnangarra]

thank you

On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 06:07, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) 
wrote:

> That is 21:00 UTC - or automatically localized times at
> https://zonestamp.toolforge.org/1670446848
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 5:45 PM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>> Can you please provide the time in utc format
>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Save the Date: Curationist Launch Celebration and Webinar

[Gnangarra]

Can you please provide the time in utc format

On Tue, 29 Nov 2022, 3:30 am Sadik Shahadu,  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> You are cordially invited
>  to
> join us for the launch of Curationist.org and for a guided experience of
> our new platform!
>
>
> *Wednesday, December 7, 20224pm EST*
>
> Learn more about how Curationist’s free website connects users to over 4.4
> million digital artworks and cultural objects sourced from our partner
> museums, radically broadening the reach of these collections.
>
> The webinar
>  will
> celebrate open-access arts and culture as a vital digital tool to reimagine
> cultural narratives, challenge historical inequities, and create vibrant
> ecosystems of shared knowledge.
>
> Imagine new ways to bring open-source metadata directly to the communities
> that created and care for their art and artifacts.
>
> Hear from members of the Curationist team and free knowledge movement,
> including Local Contexts’ Jane Anderson, the Wikimedia Foundation’s
> Virginia Poundstone, and metadata specialist Sharon Mizota.
>
> *Register now*
> !
>
> At launch, users will be able to explore Curationist’s ever-growing
> archive of public domain and open access artifacts and artworks and peruse
> the critical perspectives and fresh takes published in our editorial
> features.
>
> *Reimagining art and culture through open knowledge: a webinar celebrating
> the launch of Curationist.org!*
>
> See you on December 7!
>
> SADIK SHAHADU
>
> Social Media Manager | MHz Foundation
>
>
> Email: sa...@mhzfoundation.org 
>
> Phone: +233244666136
>
> Website: www.curationist.org
>
> Social: Instagram  | Twitter
>  | *Facebook
> *| LinkedIn
> 
>
>
> (MHz Curationist logo)
> MHz Curationist is a project of the MHz Foundation
> .
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Think big! An open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation

[Gnangarra]

Disappointing that there was not a vote of some kind asking the Commons
community or UG members to endorse the publication of the letter,  The last
feedback I left was a request that the UG hold some office hours in
multiple time zones, others asked that the letter presented potential
solutions as well as mapping out a path we could follow to fix the
problems.

People will endorse the letter because everyone who contributes to Commons
knows there are way too many desperate issues that need immediate
attention. What we needed now was more than just this letter.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 at 06:34, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Dear friends of free knowledge,
>
> Wikimedia Commons is in crisis. There are numerous concerns and
> complaints about our central media platform, for many years.
>
> Therefore, this open letter asks the Wikimedia Foundation to Think
> big! about the future of Wikimedia Commons.
>
> In late August 2022, we at the Commons Photographers User Group talked
> about Wikimedia Commons. The result of these and other talks is this
> open letter.
>
> We invite everyone to sign this open letter to show how important
> Wikimedia Commons is to you. You may be a regular Commons contributor,
> a Wikipedian, an editor of Wiktionary or Wikivoyage, or maybe you
> represent an affiliation. We also strongly invite other people who are
> involved with Commons directly or indirectly, maybe in the context of
> a GLAM.
>
> Please inform others about this open letter.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ziko van Dijk
>
> Link:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Think_big_-_open_letter_about_Wikimedia_Commons
>
> --
>
> Dr. Ziko van Dijk | zikovandijk.de
> Autor von "Wikis und die Wikipedia verstehen"
> Offizieller Wikipedia-Kulturbotschafter 2022-2024
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Gnangarra]

>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope you are aware that the Leadership Development Working Group[5]
>>>>>> has been working over the past few months to formulate and find ways to
>>>>>> nurture the leadership of our movement. The Leadership Development 
>>>>>> Working
>>>>>> Group (LDWG) is a group of Wikimedia volunteers representing different
>>>>>> communities, languages, roles, and experiences. We are pleased to inform
>>>>>> the community that our draft definition of leadership is now available 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> community feedback. This first draft definition of leadership was written
>>>>>> after months of discussion, learning, and sharing from our community
>>>>>> perspective. The Wikimedia Movement, which is by nature diverse and
>>>>>> distinctive in its own way, is expressly addressed by this definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please consider going through the definition and letting us know what
>>>>>> you think by October 6, 2022. The draft definition includes a
>>>>>> general definition of leadership and subcategories that elaborate on the
>>>>>> actions, qualities, and outcomes of good leadership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are many places where you can express your ideas, suggestions,
>>>>>> and comments, such as the meta talk page[2], the feedback form[3], and
>>>>>> Movement Strategy Forum Post[4]. You can also directly mail us at
>>>>>> leadershipworkinggr...@wikimedia.org.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can check if the general definition, and the subcategories align
>>>>>> with your idea of leadership in the movement. You can also try finding 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> gaps, maybe some qualities of a leader or anything else are missing in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> draft definition or you can check if the definition applies to all
>>>>>> cultural, linguistic, community or other contexts of the movement and 
>>>>>> share
>>>>>> your thoughts with us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Together, let's celebrate the movement's diverse and distinctive
>>>>>> leadership!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Link to the draft definition on meta
>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leadership_Development_Working_Group/Content>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [2] Link to meta talk page
>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Leadership_Development_Working_Group>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [3] Link to the feedback form <https://forms.gle/o7a4FYV8ZkisJF3KA>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [4] Link to the Movement Strategy Forum post
>>>>>> <https://forum.movement-strategy.org/t/leadership-development-working-group/1404>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [5] Link to the meta page of LDWG
>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leadership_Development_Working_Group>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Iván Martínez*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Voluntario - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> // Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
>>>>>> moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
>>>>>> // Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora:
>>>>>> https://donate.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___
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>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>>>>>> Public archives at
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: width=]
>>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virus-free.www.avg.com
>>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___
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>>>>>> guidelines at:
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>>>>>
>>>>> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Gnangarra]

t; On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 4:33 PM Ivan Martínez 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> TL;DR: The draft leadership definition[1] prepared by the Leadership
>>>> Development Working Group is ready for community feedback! Please share
>>>> your feedback on Meta[2], the feedback form[3] or the Movement Strategy
>>>> Forum[4]. You can also directly mail us at
>>>> leadershipworkinggr...@wikimedia.org. The feedback will be collected
>>>> till October 6, 2022.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I hope you are aware that the Leadership Development Working Group[5]
>>>> has been working over the past few months to formulate and find ways to
>>>> nurture the leadership of our movement. The Leadership Development Working
>>>> Group (LDWG) is a group of Wikimedia volunteers representing different
>>>> communities, languages, roles, and experiences. We are pleased to inform
>>>> the community that our draft definition of leadership is now available for
>>>> community feedback. This first draft definition of leadership was written
>>>> after months of discussion, learning, and sharing from our community
>>>> perspective. The Wikimedia Movement, which is by nature diverse and
>>>> distinctive in its own way, is expressly addressed by this definition.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please consider going through the definition and letting us know what
>>>> you think by October 6, 2022. The draft definition includes a general
>>>> definition of leadership and subcategories that elaborate on the actions,
>>>> qualities, and outcomes of good leadership.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are many places where you can express your ideas, suggestions,
>>>> and comments, such as the meta talk page[2], the feedback form[3], and
>>>> Movement Strategy Forum Post[4]. You can also directly mail us at
>>>> leadershipworkinggr...@wikimedia.org.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can check if the general definition, and the subcategories align
>>>> with your idea of leadership in the movement. You can also try finding the
>>>> gaps, maybe some qualities of a leader or anything else are missing in the
>>>> draft definition or you can check if the definition applies to all
>>>> cultural, linguistic, community or other contexts of the movement and share
>>>> your thoughts with us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Together, let's celebrate the movement's diverse and distinctive
>>>> leadership!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] Link to the draft definition on meta
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leadership_Development_Working_Group/Content>
>>>>
>>>> [2] Link to meta talk page
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Leadership_Development_Working_Group>
>>>>
>>>> [3] Link to the feedback form <https://forms.gle/o7a4FYV8ZkisJF3KA>
>>>>
>>>> [4] Link to the Movement Strategy Forum post
>>>> <https://forum.movement-strategy.org/t/leadership-development-working-group/1404>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [5] Link to the meta page of LDWG
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leadership_Development_Working_Group>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Iván Martínez*
>>>>
>>>> *Voluntario - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
>>>>
>>>> // Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
>>>> moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
>>>> // Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora:
>>>> https://donate.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>> ___
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>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Leadership Development Working Group is ready for community feedback!

[Gnangarra]

5]
>>>>> has been working over the past few months to formulate and find ways to
>>>>> nurture the leadership of our movement. The Leadership Development Working
>>>>> Group (LDWG) is a group of Wikimedia volunteers representing different
>>>>> communities, languages, roles, and experiences. We are pleased to inform
>>>>> the community that our draft definition of leadership is now available for
>>>>> community feedback. This first draft definition of leadership was written
>>>>> after months of discussion, learning, and sharing from our community
>>>>> perspective. The Wikimedia Movement, which is by nature diverse and
>>>>> distinctive in its own way, is expressly addressed by this definition.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please consider going through the definition and letting us know what
>>>>> you think by October 6, 2022. The draft definition includes a general
>>>>> definition of leadership and subcategories that elaborate on the actions,
>>>>> qualities, and outcomes of good leadership.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many places where you can express your ideas, suggestions,
>>>>> and comments, such as the meta talk page[2], the feedback form[3], and
>>>>> Movement Strategy Forum Post[4]. You can also directly mail us at
>>>>> leadershipworkinggr...@wikimedia.org.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can check if the general definition, and the subcategories align
>>>>> with your idea of leadership in the movement. You can also try finding the
>>>>> gaps, maybe some qualities of a leader or anything else are missing in the
>>>>> draft definition or you can check if the definition applies to all
>>>>> cultural, linguistic, community or other contexts of the movement and 
>>>>> share
>>>>> your thoughts with us.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Together, let's celebrate the movement's diverse and distinctive
>>>>> leadership!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Link to the draft definition on meta
>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leadership_Development_Working_Group/Content>
>>>>>
>>>>> [2] Link to meta talk page
>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Leadership_Development_Working_Group>
>>>>>
>>>>> [3] Link to the feedback form <https://forms.gle/o7a4FYV8ZkisJF3KA>
>>>>>
>>>>> [4] Link to the Movement Strategy Forum post
>>>>> <https://forum.movement-strategy.org/t/leadership-development-working-group/1404>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [5] Link to the meta page of LDWG
>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Leadership_Development_Working_Group>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> *Iván Martínez*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Voluntario - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
>>>>>
>>>>> // Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
>>>>> moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
>>>>> // Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora:
>>>>> https://donate.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [image: width=]
>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>>>>>
>>>>> Virus-free.www.avg.com
>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>>>>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Comments Requested on the Revised Enforcement Guidelines for the Universal Code of Conduct

[Gnangarra]

There are no times of details on this link related to this email

There are planned live discussions about the UCoC enforcement draft
> guidelines; please see Meta times and details:


   -

   Conversation hours
   
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/2021_consultations/Roundtable_discussions#Conversation_hours>

The facilitation team supporting this review period hopes to reach a large
> number of communities. If you do not see a conversation happening in your
> community, please organize a discussion. Facilitators can assist you in
> setting up the conversations.
>

On Fri, 9 Sept 2022 at 02:12, Stella Ng  wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> The Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines revisions committee
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee#Revisions_CommitteeyLanguage/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee%23Phase_2>
> is requesting comments regarding the Revised Enforcement Draft Guidelines
> for the Universal Code of Conduct
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>
> (UCoC). This review period will be open from 8 September 2022 until 8
> October 2022.
>
> The committee collaborated to revise these draft guidelines based on input
> gathered from the community discussion period from May through July, as
> well as the community vote that concluded in March 2022.
>
> The revisions are focused on the following four areas:
>
>1.
>
>To identify the type, purpose, and applicability of the UCoC training;
>2.
>
>To simplify the language for more accessible translation and
>comprehension by non-experts;
>3.
>
>To explore the concept of affirmation, including its pros and cons;
>4.
>
>To review the balancing of the privacy of the accuser and the accused
>
> The committee requests comments and suggestions about these revisions by 8
> October 2022. From there, the revisions committee anticipates further
> revising the guidelines based on community input.
>
>-
>
>Find the Revised Guidelines on Meta
>
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Revised_enforcement_guidelines>,
>and a comparison page in some languages
>
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Revised_enforcement_guidelines/Comparison>
>
> Everyone may share comments in a number of places. Facilitators welcome
> comments in any language on the
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Enforcement_draft_guidelines_review>Revisions
> Guideline Talk Page. Comments can also be shared on talk pages of
> translations, at local discussions, or during conversation hours.
>
> There are planned live discussions about the UCoC enforcement draft
> guidelines; please see Meta times and details:
>
>-
>
>Conversation hours
>
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/2021_consultations/Roundtable_discussions#Conversation_hours>
>
> The facilitation team supporting this review period hopes to reach a large
> number of communities. If you do not see a conversation happening in your
> community, please organize a discussion. Facilitators can assist you in
> setting up the conversations.
>
> Discussions will be summarized and presented to the drafting committee
> every two weeks. The summaries will be published here
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee/Digests>
> .
>
> Regards,
>
> Stella
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Decentralized fundraising, centralized distribution

[Gnangarra]

role. By contrast, the bulk of
>> mission-related services from the Wikimedia movement are offered to the
>> world at large centrally by the international office (i.e. the Wikimedia
>> projects). Did WMDE consider how comparable these INGOs are to the
>> Wikimedia movement in this sense? I don't see a section of your paper that
>> compares the service/product delivery structure of these INGOs, so perhaps
>> this distinction did not come up during your review? Or is the thinking
>> that decentralization of project hosting and support is on the table, and
>> the report can inform that consideration?
>>
>> Thanks for any insight you can share,
>> Nate
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: [TOOLHUB] Result of Community Feedback on Toolhub Taxonomy

[Gnangarra]

can 3.b be removed and replaced with

3.b.1.  uploading content
3.b.2  creating content

because there are more AI type content creation tools coming online

On Thu, 8 Sept 2022 at 17:21, Seyram Komla Sapaty 
wrote:

> Hello!
>
> Thanks to everyone who took the time to provide their valuable feedback on
> the Toolhub taxonomy[0]!
>
> After a round of community feedback and input, we made the following
> decisions about which categories and values to implement in the first
> productionized version of the taxonomy.
>
> === Summary of Changes ===
>
>1.
>
>Exclude the proposed Programming language attribute.
>2.
>
>Exclude the proposed Platform attribute
>3.
>
>Revise the Tasks attribute values:
>1.
>
>   Remove "Creating or uploading content"
>   2.
>
>   Add "Creating new content"
>   3.
>
>   Rename "Generating and recommending content" to "Recommending
>   content"
>   4.
>
>Revise the Content types attribute values:
>1.
>
>   Add additional level of hierarchy to group content types and enable
>   both broad or specific values to be applied.
>   2.
>
>   Remove "Files".
>   3.
>
>   Split "Maps" and "Geographic Data"
>
>
>
> Find more details of additional changes on the decision record log page[0]
>
>
> === Next Steps ===
>
> The team will continue to observe and improve the taxonomy as the
> community continues to use Toolhub.
> We will monitor tags and community created lists to determine if certain
> attributes would be useful or feasible in the future.
>
> [0]: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Toolhub/Data_model#Taxonomy_v2 [1]:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Toolhub/Decision_record#Taxonomy_v2
>
> --
> Seyram Komla Sapaty
> Developer Advocate
> Wikimedia Cloud Services
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Poll of Wikipedians concludes: Wikimedia fundraising emails are misleading

[Gnangarra]

 to is when an oganisation whose product is based on
> claims of accuracy, honesty, and neutrality, resorts to a fundraising
> campaign based on lies and deception. …”
>
>
> “It is really important that a charity's marketing be in accord with the
> core values of that charity and a serious risk if they undermine them. Our
> core values are in providing factual information. …”
>
>
> “… too disappointing to put into words really.”
>
>
> “… the revelation that several people end up contributing money they can't
> afford because of the pressing tone of these emails is genuinely horrifying
> to me.”
>
>
> “… misleading, vague, emotionally pressing statements that lead people to
> part with their money under circumstances that are not honest.”
>
>
> “… Running a scaremongering campaign risks that people will give money to
> the WMF and then not give money to causes that are much more in need of
> money … It is disgusting to see a charity sitting on fat stacks of cash
> that still tries to get a bigger slice of the donation pie.”
>
>
> “These spams are just toxic and horrible. …”
>
>
> “… deceptive to the point of dishonesty … inappropriate pressure put on
> previous donors to give more money.”
>
>
> “The Wikimedia Foundation is at odds with the ethics and values of the
> Wikimedia community.”
>
>
> Three respondents endorsed the emails. They said,
>
>
> “… I think this is fine. There are a few fundraising ‘tactics’ used but
> nothing remotely unethical. …”
>
>
> “When you hire someone to raise funds and they succeed in raising funds,
> this is generally seen as a good thing, except on Wikipedia for some
> reason.”
>
>
> “I spent most of my working life in not-for-profit organisations and, if
> you want income to achieve your mission, then you need to employ
> experienced marketeers and fund raisers and let them do their job using
> their expertise. …”
>
>
> All three of these respondents have past or present associations with
> Wikimedia affiliates wholly or partly funded by the Wikimedia Foundation,
> and/or have taken Wikimedia-funded employment in the past. None of them
> mentioned the fact.
>
>
> Another six respondents placed themselves in a neutral or, more aptly
> named, “Mixed” category, differentiating between parts of the emails they
> thought were fine, and others to which they objected. Quotes:
>
>
> “The $ breakdown made me raise an eyebrow, but I think that's more about
> the debate over allocation of funds than the wording of these emails, so
> I'm ambivalent.”
>
>
> “I would be quite happy if email 3 were used, and emails 1 and 2 were
> replaced with a similar style (ie, without misleading content, unnecessary
> alarmism, blatantly false statements about spending, etc). I hope this is
> achievable.”
>
>
> “The WMF won't suddenly stop asking for donations and that means being
> persuasive during fundraising. Not bad in itself. However, it is a problem
> to state erroneous claims that Wikipedia may go offline, or not saying that
> WMF is not volunteer-run, etc. A little honesty is needed.”
>
>
> Is the Wikimedia Foundation planning to make any changes to the emails in
> light of the community feedback received?
>
>
> Best,
>
> Andreas
>
>
> [1] For more details, including source links and data on the Wikimedia
> Foundation’s current financial status, see
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2022-06-26/Special_report
>
>
> [2]
> https://foundation.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AWikimedia_2007_fs.pdf=5
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Is GoogleTV violating Wikipedia's license?

[Gnangarra]

Agree with Andy here, the WMF cant sue as the copyright holder, but they do
have leverage and direct connections to Google to remind them of
their obligations as a reuser to follow the copyright licensing and at the
very least acknowledge the work from a Wikipedia.  You'd think this would
attribution requirment be built into the Wikimedia Enterprise agreements
anyway with some form of assurance or penalty for failing to acknowledge a
location where in the movement a fact came from.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 at 20:40, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 at 10:18, Peter Southwood
>  wrote:
>
> > If I understand the CC-by-sa licence correctly, Wikipedia and WMF
> themselves do not
> > own the copyright, it is owned by the contributors who created the text.
> They can take
> > this up with Google,
>
> All of the above is true.
>
> > the WMF cannot
>
> That is not true. The WMF cannot sue Google as a copyright holder.
> However, there is nothing stopping WM from raising the issue with
> Google, and gently reminding them of their obligations. Indeed, that
> would probably be more effective than individual editors doing so.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> https://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Invitation to join the Movement Strategy Forum

[Gnangarra]

Percentages look good, and show some comparison but the reality is the
actual raw number say just as much when meta has 4600 and formun has less
than 200  and without staff less than 150 its not exactly a like for like
engagement. By the end of the survey majority are those who are getting
heard on Forum are going to be the ones who fill in the survey. We see what
we want to see.  Going right back to the early days of the movement the
biggest issue has always been splitting off discussion holding discussions
outside of the room and taking decision arbitrarily based on these
discussion areas. There has been many admin/crat users sanctioned for
taking decision based on an IRC discussion, an email, or other off project
discussions.

What we appear to be doing is taking everything off the projects because
"talking on the project is too difficult" excuse is being rolled out
everywhere, the only ones not able to discuss on the projects are those
that dont contribute to the projects.  My single most frustrating issue is
that those being hired to run MS sections dont know the projects nor the
community and make no effort to fill that void in their knowledge and
prefer outside formats, outside paid for tools over the projects.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 at 07:18, Quim Gil  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2022 at 11:08 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I agree with Mike's viewpoint: the report seems to be prewritten, and not
>> based on actual discussions about the forum.
>>
>
> Please provide excerpts of the report that make you think this.
>
>
>> Nevertheless, even if the summary was good, which is doubtful, the data
>> presented in the discussion (
>> https://forum.movement-strategy.org/t/ms-forum-community-review-report/1436/6)
>> is confusing, and I would like to have a clarification. First of all, the
>> axis isn't to scale, you are presenting three different monthly usages in
>> percent but some of them are not adding 100%. I think I'm missing something
>> in these graphs, because they should add up. Furthermore, presenting it as
>> a percent makes the things confusing: there's actually more than 10x people
>> participating in Meta, but the graph doesn't suggest this. The only world
>> region where it seems to be more interactions via Forum than via Meta is in
>> Sub-saharan Africa. But this is a percent, not a grand total. Around 12,5%
>> of the Meta Users are from this region and around 22,5% of the Forum users.
>> But 12,5% of the Meta users is 575 users, and 22,5% of MS forums is 33
>> people. Is to say, there are more than 17 times more users from Sub-saharan
>> Africa using Meta than MS Forums. The graph is misleading also in this
>> point, not only in the percent not adding up.
>>
>
> It's obvious that the number of users is way higher for Meta than the
> Forum. Having more users than Meta is not a goal of the Forum. We are
> sharing the numbers there only to better understand the percentages shown.
>
> The point of these metrics is to compare the regional location of Forum
> users vs the regional location of Meta users. The hypothesis is that the MS
> Forum can be especially useful for users outside of Northern & Western
> Europe and North America.
>
> The percentages show the distribution of users by region on Meta and on
> the Forum. ~18% for the ESEAP blue line means that in that month ~18% of
> Meta users were located in that region. The red line means the % of Forum
> users in that month without counting Foundation staff. The yellow line
> includes Foundation staff as well (as the number of Forum participants
> grows, the influence of Foundation staff should become irrelevant, as in
> Meta).
>
> This is the first time we produce these metrics. Comparing Meta with the
> MS Forum is complex for many reasons. Meta covers way more than Movement
> Strategy and discussions happen (with some exceptions) in the Talk
> namespace. We could explore a smaller subset of Meta pages getting closer
> to the MS Forum scope. Again, the goal being to check regional distribution
> of users, not "Meta vs Forum". Still, we thought it was useful to start
> recording this data and sharing it.
>
> We will include these metrics in our monthly reports. Over time we will
> see whether we can learn anything comparing the regional distribution of
> Meta and Forum users.
>
>
>> Then there are some interesting points about engagement. Is clearly going
>> down. Is there any reflection on this? We don't have data on Meta
>> engagement, so a comparison is difficult,
>>
>
> When a new space is announced, it is expected to receive a first bump of
> activity. After that comes the actual curve of consolidation (or not) of
> this new space. Two other factors influence in this case:
>
>- Many users responded to the community review call, joined, tested,
>maybe engaged a bit, and then left back to their routines, waiting for the
>outcome of the review period.
>- After mid June, 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Gnangarra]

Agree with Bodhi here, contact WMDE they have been doing this conference
for many years and should have the networks to help get your application
for a visa processed.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:20, Bodhisattwa 
wrote:

> Hi Anass,
>
> Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I would suggest
> your representative to communicate with the conference organizing team
> directly about not getting any date of appointment before the conference
> and they will contact with respective embassies and consulates. Like the
> representative from your affiliate, I know of few others who did not get
> their visa appointments, so when they contacted the organizing team, they
> were given the support and respective embassies and consulates contacted
> them and gave them appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this,
> because I was one such candidate.
>
> Regards,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth  wrote:
>
>> I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point,
>> Anass. Thanks for that.
>>
>> I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia
>> events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and
>> Wikimania in 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't
>> even imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa
>> applicants.
>>
>> After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.
>>
>>- If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted, more
>>funding for supporting the applications than one might think is needed. It
>>is time consuming to support visa applications, but it does make a
>>difference.
>>- One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting
>>the applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work
>>independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and timeline,
>>but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and timelines.
>>It is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but support
>>needs to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is done,
>>it does however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved.
>>- For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa
>>processes as compared to the Diversity Conference – as we seemed to notice
>>that it made a difference. We reached out to the embassies informing them
>>about the upcoming conference, we were in close communication with the
>>Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that organized a reception during Wikimania
>>for WikiGap organizers, and even successfully appealed a rejection. All
>>this took a lot of time, and not all applications were successful. But a
>>higher proportion was successful as compared to the Diversity Conference.
>>- We are not sure, but WikiGap *seems* to have made a difference in
>>many embassies. That is, the Swedish embassy in a given country has after
>>the WikiGap events a relationship to the Wikimedia movement, and might 
>> even
>>know about the applicants, which in many cases *seems* to have led to
>>more approvals. I am not sure if that is possible to repeat in more
>>instances, but for us it shows at least that building relations might 
>> help.
>>
>> I don't think, however, that we will ever reach 100% approvals. I thus
>> also wholeheartedly agree with the previous message that we need to explore
>> successful person / remote integration.
>>
>> I also want to acknowledge the fact that I write this as a previous
>> organizer. As the situation is of course much harder for all applicants,
>> for me it is not about complaining, but trying to rase a few points that
>> can perhaps increase the probability of approvals in more cases.
>>
>> Best,
>> *Eric Luth*
>> Projektledare engagemang och påverkan | Project Manager, Involvement and
>> Advocacy
>> Wikimedia Sverige
>> eric.l...@wikimedia.se
>> +46 (0) 765 55 50 95
>>
>> Stöd fri kunskap, bli medlem i Wikimedia Sverige.
>> Läs mer på blimedlem.wikimedia.se
>>
>>
>>
>> Den tis 16 aug. 2022 kl 14:51 skrev :
>>
>>> Thanks Anass for bringing this up! It's a very frustrating situation for
>>> community members to deal with visas. It's also worth noting that in
>>> certain cases there are places that request a visa from certain countries,
>>> but do not have an Embassy in the country they are requesting the visa from
>>> -- meaning that a community member has to travel to another destination
>>> (sometimes significantly far away!) in order to get paper processed. That
>>> takes money and time.
>>>
>>> To me, the big elephant in the room is the need to re-imagine how we can
>>> do better integration of in person / remote events. The challenge here is
>>> that in the upcoming future it won't make sense from a carbon budget &
>>> climate perspective to fly people around the world, and we need to start
>>> designing more real 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Seven Wikimedia chapters rejected as permanent observers to the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO)

[Gnangarra]

I acknowledge the disappointment of those Affiliates, and movement in
general this is worth a statement from the WMF but its very poor politics
to single out China.

It reads as if its almost an AUKUS driven
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUKUS> press release, I think its wrong to
ignore the other countries like Russia, Belarus, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan,
Tajikistan, Iran, Syria, Algeria, Zimbabwe, Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia,
Venezuela, and North Korea(thanks Andreas i copied your list rather than
typing).  Our biggest pillar is being neutral in how we present information
and the WMF should never take a stance of breaking that neutrality on an
issue without first seeking community support as was done with SOPA. Its
that aspect I find more disappointing than not being admitted to WIPO as
permanent members.

As a side issue I would also question the motivation around the underlying
reason for Affiliates  trying to do this whether its a back door move by
the WMF due to it being rejected twice previously. It makes me wonder what
other strings are being attached to funding for what should be independent
Affiliates.

Gnangarra


On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 at 07:52, The Cunctator  wrote:

> Having read the Foundation press release, I have to say that if it were a
> Wikipedia page, I would have edited it since it is quite misleading as
> written. I understand the reticence to mention other countries since I
> expect you want to portray China as a rogue actor here and I'm sympathetic
> to that agenda but, on the other hand, being encyclopedic and truthful
> really is kind of our brand.
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 11:16 AM Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> Dear Jan,
>>
>> Well, the accuracy of the press release would be enhanced if it mentioned
>> the support China received from over a dozen other countries.
>>
>> This isn't just my opinion:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/Wikiland/status/1550515724673761280
>>
>> Congratulations on the ECOSOC accreditation.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 1:36 PM Jan Gerlach 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Andreas
>>>
>>> China was in fact the only country to oppose the Wikimedia chapters'
>>> request for observer status. Other countries for political or unknown
>>> reasons may have aligned with China's position on process, but no country
>>> besides China unilaterally or independently opposed the Wikimedia chapters'
>>> request.
>>>
>>> Relatedly, you may have seen that the Wikimedia Foundation just obtained
>>> accreditation at the UN's Economic and Social Affairs Council where a
>>> similar situation was unblocked by a vote of the member countries:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2022/07/22/wikimedia-foundation-earns-accreditation-to-the-united-nations-economic-and-social-affairs-council-ecosoc/
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Jan
>>>
>>>
>>> ==
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jan Gerlach
>>> Public Policy Director
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> 1 Montgomery Street, Suite 1600
>>> San Francisco, CA 94104
>>> jgerl...@wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>> Andreas Kolbe  schrieb am Fr., 22. Juli 2022, 19:44:
>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> A week ago, the WMF issued a press release, "Seven Wikimedia chapters
>>>> rejected as permanent observers to the World Intellectual Property
>>>> Organization (WIPO)":
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2022/07/15/seven-wikimedia-chapters-rejected-as-permanent-observers-to-wipo/
>>>>
>>>> This stated, in part, "China was the only country to oppose the
>>>> Wikimedia chapters’ request for observer status, again, claiming that
>>>> chapters were complicit in spreading disinformation and are subsidiaries of
>>>> the Wikimedia Foundation. These statements are unfounded and misrepresent
>>>> Wikipedia’s model which prioritizes accuracy, neutrality, as well as the
>>>> fact that the chapters are completely autonomous."
>>>>
>>>> About a week ago, I had seen and retweeted a Twitter thread[1] by James
>>>> Love[2], the Director of Knowledge Ecology International, listing a whole
>>>> litany of countries that had supported China's position.
>>>>
>>>> I checked the webcast of the July 15 WIPO proceedings today,[3] and
>>>> there were over a dozen countries – Russia, Belarus, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan,
>>>> Tajikistan, Iran, Syria, Algeria, Zimbabwe, Nicara

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Announcing the six candidates for the 2022 Board of Trustees election

[Gnangarra]

>
> I am disturbed to see some community members blithely dismissing the need
> to protect the well-being of potentially vulnerable community members,


This is not some functionary volunteer role, nor is it a scholarship to
attend some event. The affiliate and the members of the Board of Trustees
are both very public facing aspects, when a person is on the Board of
Trustees their identity is public
https://wikimediafoundation.org/role/board/ .  It is obvious that a
truly  vulnerable person would not even put themselves into a BOT
position.  It's important for members of the community to know who their
affiliate chose to represent them because it's a reflection of that
community.  I know some affiliates actually didnt consult their communities
for input into the decision process before the fact so knowing after the
fact is at least pretending to be transparent in the voting.



On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 at 06:01, Benjamin Lees  wrote:

> I don't think there's anything blithe in pointing out that an
> after-the-fact promise of secrecy serves no one.  Affiliates had to decide
> whether to vote without knowing whether the list would be published (but
> hopefully realizing that the username of their voter would be published,
> although I'm not sure if this was made clear).  The main effect of post-hoc
> secrecy here would be to sow confusion and set up unrealistic expectations
> about future votes; in the last affiliate-selected board seat process, not
> only was the list of voting affiliates published, but *their individual
> votes were as well*: <
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Asbs_presentation_matches_with_stv_py_results.pdf>,
> and for the reasons Lodewijk describes, we might well wish to return to
> such full transparency in the future.
>
> If a decision either way had been made and communicated beforehand,
> affiliate voters could have made an informed decision, but as with most of
> the rules for this election, it was announced in the middle of the
> election, rather than in the many months before it.  In any event, I agree
> with SJ that this is a decision to be made by the elections committee, not
> WMF staff.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 4:45 PM Robert Fernandez 
> wrote:
>
>> I am disturbed to see some community members blithely dismissing the need
>> to protect the well-being of potentially vulnerable community members,
>> especially in a community that usually prides itself on the ability to
>> participate anonymously.
>>
>> That said, perhaps we could publish the names of participating affiliates
>> who affirm the wish to be named publicly.
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/LNXPN2Z5TY35SJOV6MOLB7ASOQL57GGF/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
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> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org



-- 
GN.
___
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
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To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Announcing the six candidates for the 2022 Board of Trustees election

[Gnangarra]

Hi

We are seeing alot of these

>  ''making the list of participants more obvious is not something that we
> wish to do so we can protect the people in our communities who are
> vulnerable to just how political participating in free knowledge still is
> in much of the world.''


type comments. The reality is if they had succeed they would have to be
public so its not like they weren't aware that their nomination was placing
them in a potential risk situation anyway.  I see no issue here in being
transparent in this process.

Regards
Gnangarra

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 at 20:25, Ilario Valdelli  wrote:

> For transparency purposes there is no question to ask. Surely the list
> must be public.
>
> Is WMF a transparent organization?
>
> Kind regards
>
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022, 06:14 Jackie Koerner,  wrote:
>
>> Hi Alice and Adamw,
>>
>> Thanks for this question. This has been a question those of us on the
>> team supporting the election asked ourselves: do we publish the
>> participants publicly, or no?
>>
>> Movement Strategy and Governance is made up of facilitators from around
>> the world. We all have a broad experience with cultures and community
>> experiences. Several facilitators said some affiliates from their regions
>> decided not to participate to avoid the risk of being labeled and accused
>> of engaging with a foreign organization. The aim is to protect those
>> organizations and individuals who did participate from extra attention that
>> might have real and lasting effects for them.
>>
>> For the reason above, making the list of participants more obvious is not
>> something that we wish to do so we can protect the people in our
>> communities who are vulnerable to just how political participating in free
>> knowledge still is in much of the world.
>>
>> If any organization needs to have documentation of their participation,
>> we can gladly supply that on an individual basis.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jackie
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 6:46 AM Adam Wight 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 to this question, and whether we can make the list of voting
>>> affiliates public in the same way that we publicize the voting rolls for
>>> individuals participating in Community [S]elections.  The results page [1]
>>> shows that 112 affiliate organizations each cast one vote.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> [[meta:User:Adamw]]
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/2022/Results/Affiliate_organization_voting
>>> On 7/19/22 21:11, Alice Wiegand wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Jackie,
>>> Thanks for sharing the result. Where can we find information about how
>>> many chapters/thematic organizations and usergroups have casted their votes?
>>>
>>> Alice.
>>>
>>> Am 19.07.2022 um 19:32 schrieb Jackie Koerner :
>>>
>>> *You can find this message translated into additional languages on
>>> Meta-wiki.
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/2022/Announcement/Announcing_the_six_candidates_for_the_2022_Board_of_Trustees_election>*
>>>  Please help translate to your language
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate=page-Wikimedia+Foundation+elections%2F2022%2FAnnouncement%2FAnnouncing+the+six+candidates+for+the+2022+Board+of+Trustees+election==page=>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>> The Affiliate voting process has concluded. Representatives from each
>>> Affiliate organization learned about the candidates by reading candidates’
>>> statements, reviewing candidates’ answers to questions, and considering the
>>> candidates’ ratings provided by the Analysis Committee. The selected 2022
>>> Board of Trustees candidates are:
>>>
>>>- Tobechukwu Precious Friday (Tochiprecious
>>><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Tochiprecious>)
>>>- Farah Jack Mustaklem (Fjmustak
>>><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fjmustak>)
>>>- Shani Evenstein Sigalov (Esh77
>>><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Esh77>)
>>>- Kunal Mehta (Legoktm <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Legoktm>
>>>)
>>>- Michał Buczyński (Aegis Maelstrom
>>><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Aegis_Maelstrom>)
>>>- Mike Peel (Mike Peel
>>><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Mike_Peel>)
>>>
>>> You may see more information about the Results
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Affiliations Committee's standing on hubs and its role in the process

[Gnangarra]

Hi

Affcom has a conflict in this situation because hubs are not affiliates nor
are they being piloted as hubs have functioned as organisations in their
own right for many years. The word 'pilot' is disrespectful to work that
these hubs have been doing for that time.  I acknowledge Affcom can provide
useful information but it would be more useful if this was done in a
respectful way rather than as a consolidation of and further power grab.

Structurally puting hubs under Affcom means pushing Affiliates and the
contributing community further away from the WMF, that disconnection will
get even wider when the Global Council starts up, if anything hubs should
be separate from Affcom and sit as equals to affcom within the Global
Council.

 Affiliates have their own connections to affcom, where affcom sits in
judgement of affiliates and whether they are worthy of being considered an
affiliate.  Hubs dont sit in judgement, they serve Affiliates by supporting
them in connecting with communities where cultural and regional ties exist.
Hubs also help to support communities where no affiliate exists or is
likely to exist yet they need the access to resources and specific skill
sets.   Hubs also provide a safety net to the contributors within
communities where the affiliate isn't compliant with affcom requirements to
ensure their voices are being heard and engaging with the WMF.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 19:43, Wojciech Pędzich  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> AffCom’s response here is to a specific Hub pilot project, not necessarily
> the long-term future of Hubs, and hence the initial statement published on
> July 11. AffCom is comprised of a body of volunteers from across the
> Movement who have joined the Committee from various projects and who have a
> wide range of experience across opportunities and challenges when Wikimedia
> groups gather and formalize.
>
> We do not see the situation in which Hubs are emerging as any threat to
> the communities that already exist.  Hubs, in their structure, can be seen
> as a variety of affiliates who are gathering together to create something
> new. In this manner,  AffCom is definitely in a position to help Hubs grow
> and prosper. While structures similar to the current discussion on Hubs
> have previously existed, there is an advantage in having Hubs work
> officially as structures similar to Affiliates, and this is where the word
> “pilot” comes in. This is intended to indicate the beginning of having Hubs
> as established structures with the current infrastructure of communities
> that already exists.
>
> Kind regards
> Wojciech, on behalf of AffCom
> W dniu 12.07.2022 o 11:13, Gnangarra pisze:
>
> As hubs are not replacing the relationship between affiliates and affcom,
> hubs purpose is to serve its community across multiple countries.  I can
> see the value in Affcom sharing some of its experiences but I caution
> against the building of deeper power structures that widen the gap between
> individual contributors, the BOT, and the WMF.   That gap will get even
> wider once the global council is put in place, there are already
> significant communication problems, made worse by the lack of project
> experience within the WMF staff, its contractors, and the BOT
>
> For many years these hubs have successfully existed outside Affcom
> control, I think there should be greater respect shown to hubs for that
> work treating hubs as pilots is itself disrespectful. Outside of Europe
> where EU law allows cross border responsibility, hubs governance structures
> face considerable legal hurdles from insurance to individuals being
> required to make themselves subject to the laws of another jurisdiction to
> hold a position of responsibility.
>
> 
>
>> This discussion should be naturally a discussion done by the community
>> and not by the Affcom itself, naturally, like it's happening for the whole
>> strategy.
>
> I wholeheartedly support this point, these discussions need to run
> independent Affcom.
>
> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 at 16:34, Philip Kopetzky 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Wojciech,
>>
>> thanks for this statement, it will definitely be helpful to have AffCom's
>> insights into the current affiliates network when talking about hubs. While
>> approval by the WMF BoT is one option, wouldn't that require a hub to be a
>> formal organisation? Otherwise the BoT would be involved in micro-managing
>> project grants that are funding some of the hub pilots.
>>
>> It would also be helpful to design the process in a way that has the
>> Global Council in mind where in its absence the WMF BoT acts in its
>> absence, to make clear that this is only a temporary solution because of
>> how slow progress on the movement charter has been in the last two years.

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Affiliations Committee's standing on hubs and its role in the process

[Gnangarra]

As hubs are not replacing the relationship between affiliates and affcom,
hubs purpose is to serve its community across multiple countries.  I can
see the value in Affcom sharing some of its experiences but I caution
against the building of deeper power structures that widen the gap between
individual contributors, the BOT, and the WMF.   That gap will get even
wider once the global council is put in place, there are already
significant communication problems, made worse by the lack of project
experience within the WMF staff, its contractors, and the BOT

For many years these hubs have successfully existed outside Affcom control,
I think there should be greater respect shown to hubs for that work
treating hubs as pilots is itself disrespectful. Outside of Europe where EU
law allows cross border responsibility, hubs governance structures face
considerable legal hurdles from insurance to individuals being required to
make themselves subject to the laws of another jurisdiction to hold a
position of responsibility.



> This discussion should be naturally a discussion done by the community and
> not by the Affcom itself, naturally, like it's happening for the whole
> strategy.

I wholeheartedly support this point, these discussions need to run
independent Affcom.

On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 at 16:34, Philip Kopetzky 
wrote:

> Hi Wojciech,
>
> thanks for this statement, it will definitely be helpful to have AffCom's
> insights into the current affiliates network when talking about hubs. While
> approval by the WMF BoT is one option, wouldn't that require a hub to be a
> formal organisation? Otherwise the BoT would be involved in micro-managing
> project grants that are funding some of the hub pilots.
>
> It would also be helpful to design the process in a way that has the
> Global Council in mind where in its absence the WMF BoT acts in its
> absence, to make clear that this is only a temporary solution because of
> how slow progress on the movement charter has been in the last two years.
>
> Best,
> Philip
>
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 20:54, Wojciech Pędzich  wrote:
>
>> During the strategic meeting of the Affiliations Committee (AffCom) in
>> Paris on June 24-26, members discussed how AffCom may be able to support
>> the movement in relation to the upcoming Hubs pilot process. We reviewed
>> two issues – whether it was within AffCom’s remit to contribute to the
>> Hub pilot process and if so, what our involvement might look like.
>>
>> AffCom has, since its inception in 2004, worked directly with all
>> Affiliates across the movement, i.e.: User Groups, Chapters, and
>> Thematic Organizations. Our role, as it has evolved, is to support these
>> different entities as they come into being and then as they grow, ensure
>> that they integrate best practices and with a view to long-term
>> sustainability. This has provided AffCom with both a broad overview, as
>> well as a deep understanding, of the various challenges faced by
>> affiliates across a range of circumstances that include socio-cultural
>> issues and affiliate-based conflicts. Hubs are intended to function as
>> formal movement bodies constituted by existing groups and/or affiliates,
>> able to  use Wikimedia trademarks to present their association. They
>> will need to be independent, legally constituted Affiliates, recognised
>> by the Board of Trustees. This introduces a significant and exciting new
>> Affiliate model to our movement and AffCom would welcome the opportunity
>> to bring our institutional knowledge and experience to assist in their
>> development.
>>
>> Recognising the principles of subsidiarity, the committee would like to
>> offer its support as an advisory body for the Hubs piloting process,
>> working with the community to develop a process that will lead,
>> ultimately, to their approval by the WMF Board of Trustees.
>>
>>
>> Wojciech Pędzich
>> on behalf of AffCom
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Goodbye and see you around

[Gnangarra]

Hi Biyanto

Sad to see you leave WMID, but I hope that your studies go well and enjoy
yourself in Sweden.  I also hope you keep involved with ESEAP as your
insights have always been appreciated

Good Luck
Gnangarra

On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 17:59, Biyanto Rebin 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Tomorrow is my last day working at Wikimedia Indonesia. Goodbye is a thing
> that we should celebrate. I am very grateful to have a wonderful chance
> to collaborate with my local community, local organisation, and
> international community also various chapters and affiliates. I will
> continue my volunteering activity while enjoying my next journey as a
> master student in Digital Humanities in Uppsala University, Sweden.
>
> In the last 3 months, I have been doing collaboration work with Rachmat
> Wahidi, our new Chair of the Board of Executive with his new teams. I am
> sure WMID will achieve more in the future under his leadership with a more
> diverse team, lots of local communities, strong grass root movement and
> continuous support from the local community members, and our presence in
> the ESEAP community makes us one of the biggest communities in the region.
>
> You can always contact me via my personal email (biyanto.i...@gmail.com).
>
> From one of the sunniest cities in the Southern Hemisphere, Jakarta.
>
> Best,
> Biyanto
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Form 990 clarification request (for the attention of WMF accounts staff)

[Gnangarra]

Kaya

"Global South" a term we had discontinued to emphasise as a way to divide
the community did apply to more than just India.

I really dont think looking at 2020/2021 figures is really fair either by
yourself or by the fundraising people if that's what they used.  That
period had a significant downturn in everyone's capacity to do anything.
Everything the WMF does would be in some way to support volunteers either
directly or indirectly; whether that is keeping the servers running and
updating software, providing community support through funding initiatives,
raising awareness, or simply managing the whole circus.  I'm not supportive
of playing mind games nor word games with statistics and dollar signs by
anyone, especially where it pits the value of volunteers against the value
of staff. We are as a community better than that.

Getting good messaging out there is necessary, we should be moving away
from those early messages and evolving new messages that reflect where we
are as a movement now and where we want to be in 10 years.  What we don't
need is messaging that confuses people. After 20 years we need any
promotion of the movement to reflect the community as a valuable long term
respectable, trustworthy, reliable, and neutral partner organisation.


Boodarwun
Gnangarra


On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 at 20:06, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Hi Gnangarra and all,
>
> I only mentioned how little money went to India in 2020/2021 because of
> the WMF's recent claim in the Indian Express that "a lot" of the money
> raised is flowing into the Global South.[1]
>
> You raise the messaging used to request donations. Here are six key
> phrases from the India emails (as linked on Meta[2]) that caught my eye (my
> emphases):
>
> Phrase 1: We *choose not to charge a subscription fee*, but that doesn't
> mean we don't need support from our readers
> Phrase 2: kindly consider giving again, or even increasing your gift, *to
> keep Wikipedia free* and independent.
>
> Should the option of charging a subscription fee for "The Free
> Encyclopedia" even be hinted at in a fundraising email? Bear in mind that
> the WMF Mission is "to make and keep useful information from its projects
> available on the internet *free of charge, in perpetuity*." It is only
> because of this commitment that volunteers are prepared to work for free.
>
> Also, isn't there something of a logical contradiction in begging people –
> especially people in developing countries – for money "to keep Wikipedia
> free"?
>
> Phrase 3: About a year ago, you donated Rs. 313 to *keep Wikipedia online
> for yourself and millions of people around the world*. Each year, fewer
> than 2% of Wikipedia readers choose to support our work.
> Phrase 4: please renew your gift to ensure that Wikipedia *remains
> independent, ad-free, and growing* for years to come
> Phrase 5: can we count on you to renew your solidarity with a small
> donation? It will *keep Wikipedia online, ad-free, and growing* for years
> to come
>
> Wikipedia's independence (also used as a hook on the Wikipedia banners) is
> safer than ever, if it's to be measured by the WMF's money reserves, which
> at an estimated $400 million are now greater than they've ever been.
>
> Wouldn't we like to see the WMF saying more about what it actually does
> with the money, rather than falling back on these old stock phrases from
> yesteryear, about keeping Wikipedia online, or keeping it free? They might
> have been appropriate fifteen or twenty years ago, when the Foundation was
> finding its feet financially, but seem very out of step with the current
> financial realities.
>
> Phrase 6: 31% of your gift will be used to *support the volunteers* who
> share their knowledge with you for free every day.
>
> 31% of 2020/2021 donations revenue would have been about $50 million. I've
> been told the 31% figure comes from the Annual Report[3] (where it is
> called "*Direct support to communities*" and refers to 31% of spending,
> which is much less than 31% of revenue). But even so, it is unclear to me
> what specifically this amount refers to. It is certainly an order of
> magnitude more than the WMF's grants to the community in 2020/2021.
>
> Andreas
>
> [1]
> https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/tech-news-technology/raju-narisetti-interview-wikipedia-trust-transparency-7940621/
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising#Indian_email_texts
> [3]
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/annualreport/2020-2021-annual-report/financials/
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:55 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>> It doesn't matter where the money goes, everyone benefits and there was a
>> period where the WMF was doing a lot of work in India without fundrai

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Form 990 clarification request (for the attention of WMF accounts staff)

[Gnangarra]

It doesn't matter where the money goes, everyone benefits and there was a
period where the WMF was doing a lot of work in India without fundraising
there. Its all relative Australia was contributing over 2m per year(highest
per capita of anywhere at the time) yet there was nothing being spent in
Australia.

The issue is the messaging requesting donations should be honest. At least
two of those statements are very much questionable, and at the same time we
shouldn't be sending multiple requests close enough to each other that
people are complaining which means many others are just sending emails to
spam which become permanent filters.

On Sat, 18 Jun 2022 at 23:33, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Dan,
>
> I am happy to give you the TL;DR version:
>
> As best I can make out, the WMF's average salary cost per employee is now
> about $200,000.
>
> More could be said, of course:
>
> – The WMF had already exceeded its revenue goals for the 2021/2022 fiscal
> year by the end of March, bringing in over $150 million in the first three
> quarters[1] (total expenses last year were $107 million).
>
> – Including the endowment, I estimate the WMF now has about $400 million
> in assets (almost all in cash and investments).
>
> – In India, past donors are reporting being inundated with daily WMF
> emails telling them money is needed to keep Wikipedia online, independent,
> ad-free and thriving.[1]
>
> – Internet hosting costs are $2.4 million per year, and Erik Möller
> thought in 2013 the Wikimedia mission was sustainable on $10M+/year.
>
> – Very little of Wikimedia's money actually goes to India (0.64 million in
> 2020 for all of South Asia, per Form 990).[3]
>
> Andreas
>
>
> [1]
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Wikimedia_Foundation_Tuning_Session_FY21-22_Q3_Advancement.pdf=9
> [2] https://www.facebook.com/deemopahan/posts/10159230509968878
> [3]
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/e/e4/Wikimedia_Foundation_2020_Form_990.pdf#page=29
>
> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 3:46 PM Dan Garry (Deskana) 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 at 23:25, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>>
>>> If you've spotted an error in my reasoning or think you can provide a
>>> better estimate, please do so and share your working. Many eyes make all
>>> bugs shallow.
>>>
>>
>> My feedback is that you've put so many walls of text and numbers on this
>> mailing list, that whatever point you're attempting to make is buried
>> underneath it.
>>
>> Dan
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Global Conversations on Regional and Thematic Hubs on June 24, 25 and 26

[Gnangarra]

Hello

While Colonial languages are spoken across ESEAP mostly as 3rd or 4th
languages, they do limit the capacity for people to participate equally.
As someone who's part of ESEAPs leadership can I ask for translations into
Japanese, Korean, Mandarin, Indonesian, Hindi, Tagalog so that interested
people from across Asia(not just ESEAP) have the opportunity to participate
with a similar level of understanding.

Regards
Gnangarra

On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 at 07:25, Cornelius Kibelka 
wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> thanks for being patient with us. As announced previously, WMF's Movement
> Strategy and Governance team will host a *global conversations event on
> regional and thematic hubs <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hubs> on June
> 24, 25 and 26 (Meta page
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hubs/Global_Conversations_June_24-26,_2022>)*
>
>
> After a revision of the program, the event will focus on the discussion
> around the proposed *Minimum Criteria for Hub Pilots*
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hubs/Minimum_Criteria_for_Pilots>*.* It
> is intended to be a space to gather feedback on the criteria and build
> consensus among participants to develop and fine-tune the draft, while
> taking into account concerns and disagreements shared by participants
> before and at the event.
>
> To enable more participants to participate and share their opinion, the
> event consists of three sessions of 120 min each, organized across
> different time zones (on June 24, 25 and 26 a session each). We will
> provide *interpretation *for Arabic (June 24+25), Spanish (June 24+25),
> French (June 24+25), Russian (June 24), and Portuguese (June 25) Registration 
> for
> the event is now open, it closes on June 23.
>
> Please find all details on our event page.
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hubs/Global_Conversations_June_24-26,_2022>
>  If you can’t wait until the event to discuss the hub matters, join the
> discussion on meta <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hubs>, on
> Telegram with Movement Strategy <https://t.me/+U-4hhVPaxKGHseva> or Hubs
> specific <https://t.me/+cwcxAJg6yrBjOGRk> groups or *the very newly
> available **MS Forum
> <https://forum.movement-strategy.org/c/ensure-equity-in-decision-making/hubs/18>.*
>
> Best regards,
>
> Cornelius
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Cornelius Kibelka (he/him)
>
> Event Coordinator
>
> Movement Strategy + Governance
>
> 2030.wikimedia.org
>
> <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>
>
> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate.
> <https://donate.wikimedia.org/>*
> <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Simplifying governance processes

[Gnangarra]

I would hope the UCoC gives us the tools to address many of these long
delays. In all cases no matter how long the process  when it is completed,
the goals have shifted, there's new people, and they will one day want
their say.

It all comes down to one simple little idea that was the foundation of what
we have created "Assume Good Faith" .Once we moved away from that we
had to replace it with something that was process orientated with each
process we became better at identifying holes so we built more complex
processes but processes can never achieve the ideals we once reached for.
We have now become so scared to make a decision without everyone being ask,
so we hold a meetings, talk, then the outcome is always lets do a survey,
then lets check with the affiliates so goes to the regional hubs they hold
their meeting, then do another survey, then send it back to local
affiliates to give an opinion then the local affiliate sends out its own
survey.   All we have done is kicked the ball 6 months down the road with
no decision, then someone its often when just one that disagrees it gets
kicked back for another attempt.  In that first meeting the people there
could have decided with the same outcome thats taken 2 years to reach.


These long process development cycles necessitate paid opportunities just
following the trail of meetings and making sure the ball has gone down
every road whether the people along that road are really invested in the
individual product, and now the consideration of stipends for various
community guides; perhaps now the WMF has grown in size its worth looking
into how this growth is impacting community development.

It always amazes everyone what Wikimedians can do when left to just make it
happen.





On Fri, 20 May 2022 at 11:43, Steven Walling 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 6:25 PM effe iets anders 
> wrote:
>
>> The proposals that you list are a bit double edged. It may be necessary,
>> but they have downsides. For example, there are in a few cases very good
>> reasons to go back to the drawing board when we're talking about
>> foundational documents. It is annoying that it takes so long, but with time
>> we also should see increased ownership and an increased support base.
>> Having a single phase reduces the number of messages and time spent, but it
>> also reduces the process to a single point of failure, making it much
>> higher stakes. If you don't participate, you're too late. It would be nice
>> if we can somehow still lower the stakes by making processes more
>> iterative, and accepting that the outcome does not have to be the same for
>> a long period of time. But there is a fundamental tension between speed and
>> perceived pressure.
>>
>
> Do we really think that the dramatic increase in process has resulted in
> commensurately better community participation and buy-in? Doesn’t seem like
> it. Seems like we still get the same relatively tiny number voices who care
> a lot about global governance structure, and everyone else in the community
> mostly just votes when advertised to.
>
> In any case, taking multiple years to do things like even outline what
> say, a code of conduct committee or global council (I still have no clue
> WTF that really is) will even look like and do is egregiously slow by any
> standard.
>
> I'm less concerned about elections, if only one of these rounds involves
>> the community. If having an additional round of filtering helps to make the
>> ballot easier to digest (reduced to six candidates for three positions
>> sounds great to me!) that also means less mental effort for voters. The
>> real question is: how much cumulative time are we spending on this process
>> (or rather: should we be spending on this, if we want a good outcome). If
>> 100 people spend an extra 2 hour to trim down from 30 to 6 candidates, that
>> is worth it, because 10,000 people don't have to read 30 statements, bio's,
>> Q's etc. If we go from 7 to 6 candidates, maybe less so.
>> If doing another drafting round means 30 people spend an extra 10 hours
>> drafting, that may be worth it, if it means that 1000 people don't have to
>> be frustrated for a year because they constantly run into consequences of
>> the policy and have to go through protests to get it changed. If the
>> iteration for things that don't work is more lightweight, maybe we can just
>> try it for a year, and evaluate after that.
>>
>> Maybe it's worth it to sometimes take a napkin and do the math: how much
>> collective time are we going to spend on this?
>>
>> Best,
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 5:12 PM Steven Walling 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 4:35 PM Nathan  wrote:
>>>


 On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 5:38 PM Steven Walling <
 steven.wall...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:27 AM Evelin Heidel 
> wrote:
>
>> +1 to this, my perception is that we're wasting a lot of volunteer's
>> + staff 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Apply to join the Leadership Development Working Group!

[Gnangarra]

>
> You miss the point we do this as volunteers: a stipend isn't necessary.
> It's a just nice way to say thankyou for your time, offering it up may help
> some people who would make great mentors being able to dedicate extra
> time.  If you're doing it just for the stipend then it should be
> questionable as to whether you're the right person to mentor volunteers to
> become future leaders of the community. Every role whether it is outreach
> to a group, leading an affiliate, being on a community committee, or even
> organising a Wikimania requires dedicating time sometimes even at 2 or 3am,
> taking responsibility it's all voluntary the most you'll get is a few kind
> words.


Just to clarify with my last statement and prior responses I'm talking
about US/CA, EU, AU type countries where altruistic endeavours as
volunteers are something we have the privilege of being able to do with
limited impact on our daily lives or standard of living.  Any measure of a
good stipend/gift should be to ensure that it helps where it has the most
valuable impact. Another example of the dangers of english translations
where we all speak one language but we use it differently.


On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 at 07:56, Gnangarra  wrote:

> You miss the point we do this as volunteers: a stipend isn't necessary.
> It's a just nice way to say thankyou for your time, offering it up may help
> some people who would make great mentors being able to dedicate extra
> time.  If you're doing it just for the stipend then it should be
> questionable as to whether you're the right person to mentor volunteers to
> become future leaders of the community. Every role whether it is outreach
> to a group, leading an affiliate, being on a community committee, or even
> organising a Wikimania requires dedicating time sometimes even at 2 or 3am,
> taking responsibility it's all voluntary the most you'll get is a few kind
> words.
>
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 at 01:21, Lane Chance  wrote:
>
>> In what way would it be bad to "publish [the analysis] to inform
>> future projects"?
>>
>> Neither was it stated or implied in my email that stipends were to
>> "cover every cost", just to put $5/hour in context that it may be
>> enough to pay for a take-away, but it's not enough to cover anything
>> significant like childcare costs, which happens to be an explicitly
>> stated reason for paying a stipend on the meta page.
>>
>> The question about whether variations, like claiming extra expenses
>> for childcare, is possible is a good one. By paying a fixed or nominal
>> stipend, at first glance it appears that expenses beyond this will not
>> be accepted by the WMF, which bakes in an obvious bias against
>> participation from some minority groups with reasonable additional
>> needs.
>>
>> Lane
>>
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 13:01, Gnangarra  wrote:
>> >
>> > stipends aren't meant to cover every cost for the volunteer, its an
>> acknowledgement that as volunteers we do incur costs we can always choose
>> not to contribute. $200 a month yeah thats nice when your in the US, EU or
>> AU for other less well off countries it does make a difference for them.
>> It'd be unfair to offer a stipend to be varied between countries because
>> it'd encourage and entrench bias, and inequity across the movement.
>> >
>> > On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 19:44, Lane Chance  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It's worth highlighting the stipend (presumably intended for otherwise
>> >> unpaid volunteers who are not full-time employees of the WMF). It's
>> >> $200 for "each 2 months" and covers costs of "childcare, internet,
>> >> transportation and other costs that make volunteering possible".
>> >>
>> >> The commitment is to give *5 hours a week* for a 1 year period, so
>> >> $100/month is approximately $5 an hour in costs. A rock bottom rate
>> >> for a babysitter in the USA would be $10/hour. If you need to travel
>> >> to a quiet workspace, like a friendly and entirely free library or
>> >> Uni, to do the work or find a cubical to join a Zoom meeting, then the
>> >> cost of transport is likely to again going to start at $10 and if you
>> >> need to buy a take-away to replace time preparing an evening meal
>> >> that's going to be $20 for something basic. Some countries in Europe
>> >> have government-supported childcare, but even these may not be free
>> >> but subsidized.
>> >>
>> >> It would be interesting to see more analysis of how volunteer stipends
>> >> are normalised if these are becoming

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Apply to join the Leadership Development Working Group!

[Gnangarra]

You miss the point we do this as volunteers: a stipend isn't necessary.
It's a just nice way to say thankyou for your time, offering it up may help
some people who would make great mentors being able to dedicate extra
time.  If you're doing it just for the stipend then it should be
questionable as to whether you're the right person to mentor volunteers to
become future leaders of the community. Every role whether it is outreach
to a group, leading an affiliate, being on a community committee, or even
organising a Wikimania requires dedicating time sometimes even at 2 or 3am,
taking responsibility it's all voluntary the most you'll get is a few kind
words.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 at 01:21, Lane Chance  wrote:

> In what way would it be bad to "publish [the analysis] to inform
> future projects"?
>
> Neither was it stated or implied in my email that stipends were to
> "cover every cost", just to put $5/hour in context that it may be
> enough to pay for a take-away, but it's not enough to cover anything
> significant like childcare costs, which happens to be an explicitly
> stated reason for paying a stipend on the meta page.
>
> The question about whether variations, like claiming extra expenses
> for childcare, is possible is a good one. By paying a fixed or nominal
> stipend, at first glance it appears that expenses beyond this will not
> be accepted by the WMF, which bakes in an obvious bias against
> participation from some minority groups with reasonable additional
> needs.
>
> Lane
>
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 13:01, Gnangarra  wrote:
> >
> > stipends aren't meant to cover every cost for the volunteer, its an
> acknowledgement that as volunteers we do incur costs we can always choose
> not to contribute. $200 a month yeah thats nice when your in the US, EU or
> AU for other less well off countries it does make a difference for them.
> It'd be unfair to offer a stipend to be varied between countries because
> it'd encourage and entrench bias, and inequity across the movement.
> >
> > On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 19:44, Lane Chance  wrote:
> >>
> >> It's worth highlighting the stipend (presumably intended for otherwise
> >> unpaid volunteers who are not full-time employees of the WMF). It's
> >> $200 for "each 2 months" and covers costs of "childcare, internet,
> >> transportation and other costs that make volunteering possible".
> >>
> >> The commitment is to give *5 hours a week* for a 1 year period, so
> >> $100/month is approximately $5 an hour in costs. A rock bottom rate
> >> for a babysitter in the USA would be $10/hour. If you need to travel
> >> to a quiet workspace, like a friendly and entirely free library or
> >> Uni, to do the work or find a cubical to join a Zoom meeting, then the
> >> cost of transport is likely to again going to start at $10 and if you
> >> need to buy a take-away to replace time preparing an evening meal
> >> that's going to be $20 for something basic. Some countries in Europe
> >> have government-supported childcare, but even these may not be free
> >> but subsidized.
> >>
> >> It would be interesting to see more analysis of how volunteer stipends
> >> are normalised if these are becoming more common in WMF grants and
> >> project funding, and how they are intended to vary based on the
> >> standard cost of living in different countries, additional real-life
> >> receipted costs or what other circumstances will justify increasing
> >> the non-receipted stipend. If this has been done behind the scenes by
> >> the WMF, it would be useful to publish it to inform future projects.
> >>
> >> Lane
> >>
> >> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 at 21:09, Cassie Casares 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > (Read this message in other languages on Meta-wiki: ‎العربية •
> Русский •日本語 • 한국어)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hello everyone,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The Community Development team at the Wikimedia Foundation is
> supporting the creation of a global, community-driven Leadership
> Development Working Group. The purpose of the working group is to advise
> leadership development work. Feedback was collected in February 2022 and a
> summary of the feedback is on Meta-wiki. The application period to join the
> Working Group is now open and is closing soon on April 10, 2022. Please
> review the information about the working group, share with community
> members who might be interested, and apply if you are interested.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thank you,
> >> >
> &g

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Apply to join the Leadership Development Working Group!

[Gnangarra]

Sorry meant to say every second month, to be honest as mentors we should be
doing it to help others grow and help the movement grow not for the stipend
anyway

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 20:00, Gnangarra  wrote:

> stipends aren't meant to cover every cost for the volunteer, its an
> acknowledgement that as volunteers we do incur costs we can always choose
> not to contribute. $200 a month yeah thats nice when your in the US, EU or
> AU for other less well off countries it does make a difference for them.
> It'd be unfair to offer a stipend to be varied between countries because
> it'd encourage and entrench bias, and inequity across the movement.
>
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 19:44, Lane Chance  wrote:
>
>> It's worth highlighting the stipend (presumably intended for otherwise
>> unpaid volunteers who are not full-time employees of the WMF). It's
>> $200 for "each 2 months" and covers costs of "childcare, internet,
>> transportation and other costs that make volunteering possible".
>>
>> The commitment is to give *5 hours a week* for a 1 year period, so
>> $100/month is approximately $5 an hour in costs. A rock bottom rate
>> for a babysitter in the USA would be $10/hour. If you need to travel
>> to a quiet workspace, like a friendly and entirely free library or
>> Uni, to do the work or find a cubical to join a Zoom meeting, then the
>> cost of transport is likely to again going to start at $10 and if you
>> need to buy a take-away to replace time preparing an evening meal
>> that's going to be $20 for something basic. Some countries in Europe
>> have government-supported childcare, but even these may not be free
>> but subsidized.
>>
>> It would be interesting to see more analysis of how volunteer stipends
>> are normalised if these are becoming more common in WMF grants and
>> project funding, and how they are intended to vary based on the
>> standard cost of living in different countries, additional real-life
>> receipted costs or what other circumstances will justify increasing
>> the non-receipted stipend. If this has been done behind the scenes by
>> the WMF, it would be useful to publish it to inform future projects.
>>
>> Lane
>>
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 at 21:09, Cassie Casares 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > (Read this message in other languages on Meta-wiki: ‎العربية • Русский
>> •日本語 • 한국어)
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> >
>> > The Community Development team at the Wikimedia Foundation is
>> supporting the creation of a global, community-driven Leadership
>> Development Working Group. The purpose of the working group is to advise
>> leadership development work. Feedback was collected in February 2022 and a
>> summary of the feedback is on Meta-wiki. The application period to join the
>> Working Group is now open and is closing soon on April 10, 2022. Please
>> review the information about the working group, share with community
>> members who might be interested, and apply if you are interested.
>> >
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> >
>> >
>> > The Community Development team
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cassie Casares
>> > Program Support Associate
>> > Community Development
>> > Wikimedia Foundation
>> > ccasa...@wikimedia.org
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5KAMESN3GRQXS3UGC6AYUMOKMZVLV4MB/
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Q3322LTHJJDTI7YFL35A2PPY6QANKSV2/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
>
>


-- 
GN.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Apply to join the Leadership Development Working Group!

[Gnangarra]

stipends aren't meant to cover every cost for the volunteer, its an
acknowledgement that as volunteers we do incur costs we can always choose
not to contribute. $200 a month yeah thats nice when your in the US, EU or
AU for other less well off countries it does make a difference for them.
It'd be unfair to offer a stipend to be varied between countries because
it'd encourage and entrench bias, and inequity across the movement.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 19:44, Lane Chance  wrote:

> It's worth highlighting the stipend (presumably intended for otherwise
> unpaid volunteers who are not full-time employees of the WMF). It's
> $200 for "each 2 months" and covers costs of "childcare, internet,
> transportation and other costs that make volunteering possible".
>
> The commitment is to give *5 hours a week* for a 1 year period, so
> $100/month is approximately $5 an hour in costs. A rock bottom rate
> for a babysitter in the USA would be $10/hour. If you need to travel
> to a quiet workspace, like a friendly and entirely free library or
> Uni, to do the work or find a cubical to join a Zoom meeting, then the
> cost of transport is likely to again going to start at $10 and if you
> need to buy a take-away to replace time preparing an evening meal
> that's going to be $20 for something basic. Some countries in Europe
> have government-supported childcare, but even these may not be free
> but subsidized.
>
> It would be interesting to see more analysis of how volunteer stipends
> are normalised if these are becoming more common in WMF grants and
> project funding, and how they are intended to vary based on the
> standard cost of living in different countries, additional real-life
> receipted costs or what other circumstances will justify increasing
> the non-receipted stipend. If this has been done behind the scenes by
> the WMF, it would be useful to publish it to inform future projects.
>
> Lane
>
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 at 21:09, Cassie Casares 
> wrote:
> >
> > (Read this message in other languages on Meta-wiki: ‎العربية • Русский
> •日本語 • 한국어)
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >
> > The Community Development team at the Wikimedia Foundation is supporting
> the creation of a global, community-driven Leadership Development Working
> Group. The purpose of the working group is to advise leadership development
> work. Feedback was collected in February 2022 and a summary of the feedback
> is on Meta-wiki. The application period to join the Working Group is now
> open and is closing soon on April 10, 2022. Please review the information
> about the working group, share with community members who might be
> interested, and apply if you are interested.
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> >
> > The Community Development team
> >
> >
> >
> > Cassie Casares
> > Program Support Associate
> > Community Development
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > ccasa...@wikimedia.org
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5KAMESN3GRQXS3UGC6AYUMOKMZVLV4MB/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Q3322LTHJJDTI7YFL35A2PPY6QANKSV2/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org



-- 
GN.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Form 990 clarification request (for the attention of WMF accounts staff)

[Gnangarra]

Sorry wasnt making fun of his or anyone elses english but rather
highlighting the English language in general with its US, Uk, Ca, Au, SA
and how it gets taught rules to 2nd or 3rd language speakers as the primary
common language we all speak its a fallacy we speak it the same way.

My sincere apologies to anyone that mistook the way I criticized English

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 at 21:19, Gnangarra  wrote:

> I really should be separating these responses into two threads, but they
> are part of this discussion, and need to be addressed appropriately. The
> first was that employing in low socio-economic countries to reduce employee
> costs is an offensive, and unfair proposal in a community thats striving
> for equity.
>
> The second part is* "**I'll just leave some general comments on Maryana's
> response here"   *Maryana clearly answered you questions around the tax
> form and you were invited to direct further questions directly to her. Your
> comment and post here is totally inappropriate, now lets look at your
> individual points.
>
> 1. An organisation committed to transparency shouldn't give a friendly or
>> beholden inquirer any different information than a hostile one in
>> response to questions of fact...
>
> The response is the same as whats in the FAQ
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRS_tax_related_information/2019_Wikimedia_Foundation_Form_990_Frequently_Asked_Questions?#On_page_4,_Part_1,_Summary,_line_5,_what_staff_are_included_within_the_category_%E2%80%9CSalaries,_other_compensation,_employee_benefits%E2%80%9D?>
>  ,
> I see a big assumption you make that the only issue is its not what you
> wanted.
>
> 2. As for my motivation, it's surely one that any Wikipedian can relate
>> to: I would like the public to have access to accurate information.
>
> The only dispute on the accuracy is coming from you and based on what
> appears to be a misinterpreted tax form despite the clarity given in the
> FAQ...  I would expect the IRS (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service)  to be
> appropriately skilled to review tax forms and raise any discrepancy with
> the WMF alongside the due diligence carried out by the Auditors and the
> Board.  So what is your motivation is the writing for the media, just a
> lack of understanding of US tax codes and how expenses are declared. If any
> of us were expert in the US tax codes we'd be working in the US betting
> paid significantly more than anyone at the WMF.  We have always assumed
> good faith, I see nothing from the response to your questions that do
> otherwise.
>
> 3. I don't accept that calculating an average for 291 employees produces a
>> figure that matches "our highest-paid employees"...
>
> Welcome to tax forms the distribution of information is never simple or
> logical as each piece of information and reporting is distributed across
> many areas, as differing rulings and laws change where information is or
> how it appears. That gets complex when you look at summary information
> rather than the finited detail.
>
> 4. I did not ask for the release of non-public information. I simply
>> wanted to know how many people's pay, approximately, the front-page figure
>> of $55.6 million represents... [truncated]... Which is it? Are some or
>> all of those contractors included in the salary costs total? The WMF won't
>> say.
>
> The WMF has said on the FAQ page, Maryanna has also responded.  Maryanna
> is in an unfair position; she wasnt with the WMF during the periods you are
> playing with yet she takes time to answer with the information you request.
> Then offers you the option to dig deeper by explaining your reasons for
> doubt, (oh I love the nuances of English some would use the term motivation
> instead).
>
> 5. Salary costs are the WMF's biggest expenditure item. They reached $69M
>> in 2020/21 – a tenfold increase in the course of a decade
>
> Yep salaries will always increase as will related expenses, WMF has
> significantly increased staff that automatically brings additional costs.
> These arent increases on whims, it's because of the expanding demand on the
> WMF from the community. These have the added bonus of disproportionate
> climbing expenses the same ones we are experiencing in our daily lives from
> internet bills, power bills, to insurances, and even taxes.
>
> 6. Another Indian fundraiser is due to start in a few weeks' time. Former
>> WMF CEO Katherine Maher acknowledged to me[4] that there were problems with
>> the messaging in the last Indian fundraiser, resulting in press stories
>> that were "misleading and alarmist". I hope that the WMF will do its best
>> this year to ensure that the Indian press is accurately

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Form 990 clarification request (for the attention of WMF accounts staff)

[Gnangarra]

his issue had been addressed by the fundraising team.  Perhaps
even queried if safe guards had been put in place like perhaps hiring
additional translators to ensure that nuances are translated to convey the
same intentions using appropriate cultural references, not everywhere buys
a coffee.

I'm not even going to respond to #7 because that reads as just a new throw
away distraction to ensure that the WMF can never fulfill your needs and
keep an open argument rolling along because maybe you hit another nerve,
maybe you'll find people joining the cause because hey they have found
something in common. As much as I would hate to start a refreshed Mike
Goodwin principle, this is comparable to the way Trump and anti vaxxers
have kept up their faux news being in the limelight.

Cheers
Gnangarra

Note please change the heading of these in the next responses so everyone
know which direction the thread is talking about.

   1. WMF exploiting third world labour
   2. Form 990 media information request


On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 at 11:50, Gnangarra  wrote:

>
>> I think great care has to be taken when considering a place with low
> costs of living for employee's in that the movement does not become yet
> another corporation that exploits workers because it is cheaper, especially
> when we are claiming it as improving cultural diversity.  I would much
> rather see the WMF be a leader in raising employment conditions  to the
> standards enjoyed in the richer countries, not just weekly income but
> health, safety, and retirement benefits.  In the richer countries there's
> better education,  more recreational time, there are welfare measures which
> all contribute to a wider social capacity in participation. If the
> consensus is that a position is worth 500k in the US then its worth that
> everywhere, we should disconnect cultural diversity from rates of pay and
> employment conditions.
>
> If we looked deeper we'd see that in the lower socio-economic countries
> those participating have a higher local comparative standard of living due
> their ability to have free time, better access to equipment and to have had
> a meaningful education.  In wealthier countries EU, US, Australia the
> ability to participate reaches a lot lower socio-economically because of
> free education, welfare and for some health care. OECD defines poverty as
> half the average household income, using myself as an example from a "rich
> country", I'm on a pension/welfare, my income is below that  OECD line but
> I can still contribute in meaningful ways. Someone in say the example of
> India equally below the OECD poverty line, could not contribute due to the
> various constraints and efforts needed just to survive.
>
> Equity comes in many forms including in wages if we want to treat everyone
> equally then must endeavour to focus not only on staff distribution but
> also  with what people are being paid regardless of where they are.  The US
> is the standard that we have, then thats what we must provide to every
> employee.
>
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 at 19:40, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> Hi Bodhisattwa,
>>
>> I quite agree. A somewhat similar set-up exists in Germany where
>> donations are collected by the Wikimedia Fördergesellschaft ("Wikimedia
>> Patron Society"), a subsidiary of Wikimedia Germany. The Fördergesellschaft
>> then sends a part of its funds to the Wikimedia Foundation in the United
>> States and uses the rest to fund Wikimedia Germany:
>>
>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de/use-of-funds
>>
>> However, this is the only such arrangement I am aware of. (Wikimedia UK
>> used to have a similar one, but this ended when various conflicts of
>> interest arose in the chapter, prompting a governance review.[1])
>>
>> In my opinion, the kind of decentralised arrangement you suggest is much
>> more compatible with a worldwide movement. Such decentralisation and
>> distributed decision-making also aids diversity, in a far more
>> down-to-earth sense than talking about it does. (For example, Wikimedia
>> Germany writes and designs its own fundraising banners, and over the years
>> they've often been more culturally appropriate – and honest – than the WMF
>> ones.)
>>
>> But, coming back to the question of where staff should be located, to the
>> extent that the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States does take on
>> global responsibilities (e.g. for keeping the software up to date ... I
>> really like the new Reply feature on talk pages, for example), I think it
>> would be desirable to have more of its staff outside the United States,
>> including places like India.
>>
>> San Francisco is one of the most expensive places to live in the world,
>&g

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Form 990 clarification request (for the attention of WMF accounts staff)

[Gnangarra]

>
>
> I think great care has to be taken when considering a place with low costs
of living for employee's in that the movement does not become yet another
corporation that exploits workers because it is cheaper, especially when we
are claiming it as improving cultural diversity.  I would much rather see
the WMF be a leader in raising employment conditions  to the standards
enjoyed in the richer countries, not just weekly income but health, safety,
and retirement benefits.  In the richer countries there's better
education,  more recreational time, there are welfare measures which all
contribute to a wider social capacity in participation. If the consensus is
that a position is worth 500k in the US then its worth that everywhere, we
should disconnect cultural diversity from rates of pay and employment
conditions.

If we looked deeper we'd see that in the lower socio-economic countries
those participating have a higher local comparative standard of living due
their ability to have free time, better access to equipment and to have had
a meaningful education.  In wealthier countries EU, US, Australia the
ability to participate reaches a lot lower socio-economically because of
free education, welfare and for some health care. OECD defines poverty as
half the average household income, using myself as an example from a "rich
country", I'm on a pension/welfare, my income is below that  OECD line but
I can still contribute in meaningful ways. Someone in say the example of
India equally below the OECD poverty line, could not contribute due to the
various constraints and efforts needed just to survive.

Equity comes in many forms including in wages if we want to treat everyone
equally then must endeavour to focus not only on staff distribution but
also  with what people are being paid regardless of where they are.  The US
is the standard that we have, then thats what we must provide to every
employee.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 at 19:40, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Hi Bodhisattwa,
>
> I quite agree. A somewhat similar set-up exists in Germany where donations
> are collected by the Wikimedia Fördergesellschaft ("Wikimedia Patron
> Society"), a subsidiary of Wikimedia Germany. The Fördergesellschaft then
> sends a part of its funds to the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States
> and uses the rest to fund Wikimedia Germany:
>
> https://spenden.wikimedia.de/use-of-funds
>
> However, this is the only such arrangement I am aware of. (Wikimedia UK
> used to have a similar one, but this ended when various conflicts of
> interest arose in the chapter, prompting a governance review.[1])
>
> In my opinion, the kind of decentralised arrangement you suggest is much
> more compatible with a worldwide movement. Such decentralisation and
> distributed decision-making also aids diversity, in a far more
> down-to-earth sense than talking about it does. (For example, Wikimedia
> Germany writes and designs its own fundraising banners, and over the years
> they've often been more culturally appropriate – and honest – than the WMF
> ones.)
>
> But, coming back to the question of where staff should be located, to the
> extent that the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States does take on
> global responsibilities (e.g. for keeping the software up to date ... I
> really like the new Reply feature on talk pages, for example), I think it
> would be desirable to have more of its staff outside the United States,
> including places like India.
>
> San Francisco is one of the most expensive places to live in the world,
> and if Covid and Zoom have taught us anything it's that it is really not
> necessary to be physically in the same place all the time to work together.
> Hiring more staff abroad rather than in Silicon Valley is another thing
> that would make the WMF culturally more diverse.
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
>
> [1]
> https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/investigation-into-governance-at-wikimedia-uk-launched.html
>
> https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/wikimedia-uk-trustees-have-been--too-involved--to-effectively-govern-charity.html
>
> https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/review-urges-major-overhaul-governance-wikimedia-uk/governance/article/1170282
>
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 1:37 AM Bodhisattwa 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Andreas,
>>
>> Regarding the money raised in India, there is actually another option
>> which can be more useful for the Indian volunteers. The money does not need
>> to be transferred out of India to US and then come back through different
>> grants as foreign money under strict regulations from the government. The
>> money can just be kept in India in an organization account which will agree
>> to be the custodian of it. A process can then be initiated to sustain the
>> Indian affiliates and communities for future with that money as per
>> movement strategy recommendation. I think that would be far better an
>> option for us than to increase the number of growing WMF staffs in India or
>> pay them salary with that money.
>>
>> Regards,
>> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikimedia Announcements] Ukraine's Cultural Diplomacy Month: We are back in 2022!

[Gnangarra]

Given previous experience, past examples of this project editors are free
to make any contributions so I see no issue with governments,
institutions or even private corporations supporting knowledge sharing
activity.   The best time to share knowledge is now, the second best is
when its under threat, what we cant do is share knowledge once its
destroyed.

What I do see as unacceptable is saying we shouldn't be sharing knowledge
because a society and cultures' future is being threatened. We need to be
doing everything we can to ensure we collect and document as much as we
can.  We have seen many museums and heritage places lost in the last 20
years due various natural and unnatural events.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 at 16:53, Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:

> Absolutely.
>
> I am not a fan of government propaganda, but not it is not the best moment
> to discuss it.
>
> Best
> Yaroslav
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 7:23 AM effe iets anders 
> wrote:
>
>> The list archive probably has an answer to your question on 9 feb 2021.
>>
>> But regardless, writing about Ukrainian culture is never more prudent
>> than when it is under threat. Whatever one's personal opinion on this war,
>> I don't think anyone will deny that Ukrainian cultural heritage is at risk?
>> Asking people to go outside and take photos, that may be a bit much right
>> now, but this is a writing exercise. That is the beautiful thing about
>> Wikimedia: we document things regardless of how much we 'like' them.
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 9:59 PM 4nn1l2 <4nn1l2.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a legitimate concern as several users have dared to ask
>>> questions as you can see at
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ukraine%27s_Cultural_Diplomacy_Month
>>>
>>> We need more transparency regarding this decision. Granted, there was a
>>> campaign last year around this time, but was it advertised at a global
>>> scale? At least, I can't remember that.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 8:28 AM Ariel Glenn WMF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 This campaign was conducted last year at around the same time:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%27s_Cultural_Diplomacy_Month_2021
 Let's keep any unwarranted speculations off of this list please.

 Ariel Glenn
 ar...@wikimedia.org

 On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 5:55 AM 4nn1l2 <4nn1l2.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The timing of this campaign is of real concern and not prudent, I
> think, especially for those of us who strive for neutrality.
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 2:47 AM Samuel Klein 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for sharing -- a nice idea and gorgeous page; nice to see the 
>> *wikigap
>> challenge* model proliferating.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 6:00 PM Valentin Nefedov <
>> nefedov.valen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, dear Wikipedians!Wikimedia Ukraine, in cooperation with the
>>> Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine and Ukrainian Institute, has
>>> launched the second edition of writing challenge Ukraine's Cultural
>>> Diplomacy Month , which lasts from 17
>>> February to 17 March 2022. The campaign is dedicated to famous Ukrainian
>>> artists of cinema, music, literature, architecture, design and cultural
>>> phenomena of Ukraine that made a contribution to world culture. The most
>>> active contesters will receive prizes.
>>>
>>> We invite you to take part and help us improve the coverage of
>>> Ukrainian culture on Wikipedia in any language!
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Valentyn Nefedov a.k.a. Renvoy
>>> ___
>>> Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be
>>> immediately directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the
>>> Wikimedia community. For more information about Wikimedia-l:
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>>
>>
>> --
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>> 4266
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Seeking community recommendations for Equity Fund grantees

[Gnangarra]

Perhaps the Equity Fund could invest a few million in developing, building,
and sustaining the Community Tech team to help it fix all the underlying
problems that continue to plague the projects. They could then provide
equity of coverage across all projects, improve participation across all
countries.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 at 15:35, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Good points, these. I hope someone will answer them.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Inductiveload [mailto:inductivel...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 26 January 2022 02:36
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Seeking community recommendations for Equity
> Fund
> grantees
>
>
>
> On 25 January 2022 17:11:59 GMT, Nadee Gunasena 
> wrote:
> > I've shared more
> >information about how we'll be sharing the recommendations and making
> >decisions about the grantees on Meta in response to your comment there:
> >https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Knowledge_Equity_Fund#Concerns.
>
> Besides how the grants are allocated in the first place, something I do not
> see on that page is the clear description of how the success of the grants
> are measured and reported, auditing of expenditures and when the results
> are
> due.
>
> From the Meta page:
>
> > The Equity Fund is focused on supporting groups outside of the movement
> whose work will impact and improve knowledge equity on the Wikimedia
> projects over the long term.
>
> Thus I imagine a good part of the results will be able to be tied to long
> term changes that will be measurable as some kind of wiki engagement? If
> the
> results are not expected to manifest "on-wiki", where and when are they
> expected to manifest? Obviously, "long term" implies no final results
> "soon", but responsible management means that the outcomes of interest are,
> of course, known already along with a plan for follow-up analysis.
>
> No self-respecting organisation would spend over $7 million without even a
> way to tell if the money is being spent as promised, or no way to tell if
> the project is working or has lasting effects.
>
> For context, it's enough money to keep the servers on for years, or, as
> about 50 person-years of payroll and overhead expenditure, keep a modest
> dev
> team trucking for a decade or so. The story of what knowledge-societal good
> has been done with this amount of money will be absolutely fascinating to
> anyone with an interest in knowledge equity, and critical to justifying
> support for similar initiatives in future. The analysis and accurate
> reporting of the outcomes of these grants is at least as valuable to future
> similar efforts as the grants themselves. Imagine the utterly disastrous
> effect it would have if it were impossible to showcase the success: it
> could
> undermine the whole idea of knowledge equity in general as a worthwhile
> financial cause, and within the wiki movement, it would badly injure the
> concept that funds donated in good faith are spent carefully.
>
> I look forward to reading in detail about what outcomes have been selected
> to be tracked, how and why that selection was made, how each grant is
> expected and hoped to affect them, and when and how we may be expected to
> find out how it went, both "on the ground" for the grantees and in terms of
> the already-set outcomes. These are all things that must already have been
> carefully documented.
>
> Down the road, a thorough breakdown of how it actually did go and how it
> can
> be done better, if possible, for future rounds will be a cornerstone of
> best-practice for knowledge equity initiatives for years to come.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --IL
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Public 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

of course the Community tech team cant fix 900 existing issues, nor can it
make a new team.  The whole point about the wishlist is to focus on tools
the community needs.  The current reality is that instead of making new
tools the Community really needs the tools made during previous wishlsts
being fixed, upgraded, or if necessary the plug gets pulled on them.

One of the inherent problems with the wishlist is that the limited
resources keep getting thrown at making new gadgets, but it never looks
back at what its created. Many of the gadgets that get created are to work
around an existing problem rather than fixing the underlying problem.

Moving an issue from being listed as Commons related, to Larger Suggestions
is removing it from where the audience can see it, a close look many of the
other "wishes" on the commons list could be granted by way of fixing small
parts of the larger problems.

Wishlist as in its current form has an equity issue, a wish for Wikisource
compared to a wish for Wikipedia is never going to garner the same amount
of support. There is a significant size difference between the two, and
with that there is a lack of understanding of how much impact a tool will
have.  Commons gains some in being multilingual yet loses out
against a Wikipedia wish because of the same imbalance. An added bonus that
upgrading the multimedia capacity on Commons means we need all the other
projects being able to incorporate those gains, voila its too hard, its too
big, its outside of scope.  If your wish is for a tool to help a language
other than the top 10 forget the wishlist altogether.

We end up with it haven taken 6 months to create the virtual Wikimania
2021, its now six months after Wikimania 2021 yet we still havent been able
to upload all sessions to Commons because of underlying issues problems
with the video uploading process. We didnt even have streaming capacity to
actually present directly through Commons we had to use Youtube and
continue to hold all the videos on Youtube even though everything is freely
licensed. All because the wishlist process if flawed it looks only at the
small ideas, the easy ideas, current needs there is no reason why the
Community team cant take on a large idea and work collaboratively like the
whole community does.  There is nothing stopping the volunteers and
Community tech team from applying for funding through a rapid grant to work
on something larger or something that addresses the lack of equity being
created by the Wishlist.



On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 04:39, MusikAnimal  wrote:

> > Perhaps we can also have community discussion and !voting on the larger
> suggestions, to help Wikimedia at large to prioritize (or reflect on why
> tackling a popular set of challenges is hard to focus on).  This seems like
> a useful enough list to want to come out with a rough ordering of the
> "larger" list as well as the traditional ordering of smaller wishes.
>
> That's exactly what it is for. See the lead at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Larger_suggestions
> . The wish about Commons maintenance was never "removed", it was *moved*
> to Larger suggestions, because as Szymon explained better than I did, we
> (Community Tech) cannot provide indefinite support for Commons and tackle
> 900+ bugs. Moving it to Larger suggestions recognizes the proposal is an
> important problem that deserves broader attention. Apologies this wasn't
> clear.
>
> ~ MA
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:31 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:
>
>> Perhaps we can also have community discussion and !voting on the larger
>> suggestions, to help Wikimedia at large to prioritize (or reflect on why
>> tackling a popular set of challenges is hard to focus on).  This seems like
>> a useful enough list to want to come out with a rough ordering of the
>> "larger" list as well as the traditional ordering of smaller wishes.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 6:51 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>>
>>> Kaya
>>>
>>> As was said we should put forward wishes to the list even if they can't
>>> be fulfilled by the team, by removing the issue from the wishlist you have
>>> taken away the communities ability to express that they wish the issues to
>>> be addressed.
>>>
>>> Calling it out of scope and removing it is exactly what we were told was
>>> not going happen this year. I'll go back to my original response the
>>> Wishlist is broken and doesnt serve the communities needs
>>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 at 15:12, Szymon Grabarczuk <
>>> sgrabarc...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Gnangarra and everyone who feels misinformed,
>>>>
>>>> Please take into account my reply published on the same page, a few
&g

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

Kaya

As was said we should put forward wishes to the list even if they can't be
fulfilled by the team, by removing the issue from the wishlist you have
taken away the communities ability to express that they wish the issues to
be addressed.

Calling it out of scope and removing it is exactly what we were told was
not going happen this year. I'll go back to my original response the
Wishlist is broken and doesnt serve the communities needs

On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 at 15:12, Szymon Grabarczuk 
wrote:

> Dear Gnangarra and everyone who feels misinformed,
>
> Please take into account my reply published on the same page, a few diffs
> later:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Larger_suggestions/General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets=next=22669903
>
> In a nutshell, the voting results are instructions for the Community Tech
> team. Since our team can't hire another team, such wishes, unfortunately,
> can't be voted upon. Instead, these become "larger suggestions" which will
> be shared with the leadership of the Product department at the Wikimedia
> Foundation.
>
> I invite you to discuss the details on the Survey talk page:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Community_Wishlist_Survey
>
> Best,
>
> Szymon Grabarczuk (he/him)
>
> Community Relations Specialist
>
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 7:18 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>> so much for all the assurances here
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Multimedia_and_Commons/General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets=next=22663179
>>  Out of scope for our team, which I hope is obvious
>>
>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 12:26, Gnangarra  wrote:
>>
>>> Commons issues raised in
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Multimedia_and_Commons#General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets
>>>
>>> On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 at 05:16, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe, the Community Tech team should start picking up long standing
>>>> issues first which are being proposed repetitively almost every year but do
>>>> not get adequate votes to receive their attention.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022, 00:59 Mike Peel  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not sure if the opening of the Wishlist has been announced here yet?
>>>>> But
>>>>> it seems to be open for proposals until the 23rd.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which means I get to propose fixing a simple technical question for
>>>>> the
>>>>> fifth time in the wishlist: does this page exist?
>>>>>
>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Miscellaneous/Check_if_a_page_exists_without_populating_WhatLinksHere
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/1/22 16:10:37, Natalia Rodriguez wrote:
>>>>> > Hey all,
>>>>> > Nice to meet many of you for the first time! Thanks for your
>>>>> feedback
>>>>> > and for raising larger concerns around resource allocation at the
>>>>> > Foundation. These concerns are extremely valid-- especially the ones
>>>>> > around allocating resources for less supported platforms such as
>>>>> Commons
>>>>> > and broken infrastructure. The wishlist process will begin next week
>>>>> > with the proposal phase starting Jan 10.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In the email thread, I identified some open questions about the
>>>>> Wishlist
>>>>> > process so I am answering them here.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >   *
>>>>> > Can we vote/focus on the maintenance of tools rather than new
>>>>> tools?
>>>>> >   o
>>>>> > Yes. The wishes that we work on do not have to be associated
>>>>> > with a new tool. In the past we’ve taken on projects that
>>>>> were
>>>>> > maintenance related. For example, in the last year, we took
>>>>> on
>>>>> > improvement projects for Wikisource Export and Wikisource OCR
>>>>> > tools, among other initiatives. We also maintain and fix all
>>>>> the
>>>>> > tools we’ve built 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

so much for all the assurances here
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Multimedia_and_Commons/General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets=next=22663179
 Out of scope for our team, which I hope is obvious

On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 12:26, Gnangarra  wrote:

> Commons issues raised in
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Multimedia_and_Commons#General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets
>
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 at 05:16, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe, the Community Tech team should start picking up long standing
>> issues first which are being proposed repetitively almost every year but do
>> not get adequate votes to receive their attention.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022, 00:59 Mike Peel  wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure if the opening of the Wishlist has been announced here yet? But
>>> it seems to be open for proposals until the 23rd.
>>>
>>> Which means I get to propose fixing a simple technical question for the
>>> fifth time in the wishlist: does this page exist?
>>>
>>> Seriously.
>>>
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Miscellaneous/Check_if_a_page_exists_without_populating_WhatLinksHere
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 5/1/22 16:10:37, Natalia Rodriguez wrote:
>>> > Hey all,
>>> > Nice to meet many of you for the first time! Thanks for your feedback
>>> > and for raising larger concerns around resource allocation at the
>>> > Foundation. These concerns are extremely valid-- especially the ones
>>> > around allocating resources for less supported platforms such as
>>> Commons
>>> > and broken infrastructure. The wishlist process will begin next week
>>> > with the proposal phase starting Jan 10.
>>> >
>>> > In the email thread, I identified some open questions about the
>>> Wishlist
>>> > process so I am answering them here.
>>> >
>>> >   *
>>> > Can we vote/focus on the maintenance of tools rather than new
>>> tools?
>>> >   o
>>> > Yes. The wishes that we work on do not have to be associated
>>> > with a new tool. In the past we’ve taken on projects that were
>>> > maintenance related. For example, in the last year, we took on
>>> >     improvement projects for Wikisource Export and Wikisource OCR
>>> > tools, among other initiatives. We also maintain and fix all
>>> the
>>> > tools we’ve built in the past.Check out the fresh documentation
>>> > about what qualifies as a proposal here.
>>> > <
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/FAQ#How_to_create_a_good_proposal
>>> ?>
>>> >   o
>>> > Gnangarra, your points about the issues with bulk uploads in
>>> > Commons would make a sound proposal-- a proposal does not have
>>> > to be a new tool in the least. The part about uploading large
>>> > files is out of scope for our team though (see link above about
>>> > our areas of focus, the issue is infrastructural
>>> > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86436>and too large for
>>> what
>>> > we can take on). I still believe there is value in suggesting
>>> > it, though.
>>> >   o
>>> > We have Talk to Us
>>> > <
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/Updates/Talk_to_Us
>>> >hours
>>> > on January 19-- where the entire team will be available for a
>>> > video call to help folks who want to write proposals and polish
>>> > them so that they may get selected.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >   *
>>> > What if what we want fixed is larger than what the Community Tech
>>> > team can accomplish?
>>> >   o
>>> > This year, we will be talking directly with leadership about
>>> > larger wishes that we can't fulfill ourselves. To make this
>>> > possible, we will no longer be formally 'Archiving' ideas. One
>>> > improvement we are implementing from conversations with all of
>>> > you at past Talk to Us Hours and other places, is that we will
>>

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Commons-l] Re: General Maintenance at Commons

[Gnangarra]

Two Factor Authentication(TFA), have expanded in the proposal

On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 14:57, 4nn1l2 <4nn1l2.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks!
>
> What's tfa?
>
> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 8:01 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>> Kaya
>>
>> I have created a wishlist for Commons to have all the phabricator
>> tickets(approximately 900) fixed, the video upload issues to be fixed, tfa
>> to be added to existing tools.  Via a team of Staff and volunteers being
>> created to focus on Commons.
>>
>> Two fold fix the existing problems, and then make it possible to bring
>> new multimedia content to the projects.
>>
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Multimedia_and_Commons#General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets
>>
>> Its in your hands now.
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>>
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[Wikimedia-l] General Maintenance at Commons

[Gnangarra]

Kaya

I have created a wishlist for Commons to have all the phabricator
tickets(approximately 900) fixed, the video upload issues to be fixed, tfa
to be added to existing tools.  Via a team of Staff and volunteers being
created to focus on Commons.

Two fold fix the existing problems, and then make it possible to bring new
multimedia content to the projects.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Multimedia_and_Commons#General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets

Its in your hands now.

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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

Commons issues raised in
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Multimedia_and_Commons#General_maintenance,_outstanding_phabricator_tickets

On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 at 05:16, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe, the Community Tech team should start picking up long standing
> issues first which are being proposed repetitively almost every year but do
> not get adequate votes to receive their attention.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022, 00:59 Mike Peel  wrote:
>
>> Not sure if the opening of the Wishlist has been announced here yet? But
>> it seems to be open for proposals until the 23rd.
>>
>> Which means I get to propose fixing a simple technical question for the
>> fifth time in the wishlist: does this page exist?
>>
>> Seriously.
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Miscellaneous/Check_if_a_page_exists_without_populating_WhatLinksHere
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 5/1/22 16:10:37, Natalia Rodriguez wrote:
>> > Hey all,
>> > Nice to meet many of you for the first time! Thanks for your feedback
>> > and for raising larger concerns around resource allocation at the
>> > Foundation. These concerns are extremely valid-- especially the ones
>> > around allocating resources for less supported platforms such as
>> Commons
>> > and broken infrastructure. The wishlist process will begin next week
>> > with the proposal phase starting Jan 10.
>> >
>> > In the email thread, I identified some open questions about the
>> Wishlist
>> > process so I am answering them here.
>> >
>> >   *
>> > Can we vote/focus on the maintenance of tools rather than new tools?
>> >   o
>> > Yes. The wishes that we work on do not have to be associated
>> > with a new tool. In the past we’ve taken on projects that were
>> > maintenance related. For example, in the last year, we took on
>> > improvement projects for Wikisource Export and Wikisource OCR
>> > tools, among other initiatives. We also maintain and fix all the
>> > tools we’ve built in the past.Check out the fresh documentation
>> > about what qualifies as a proposal here.
>> > <
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/FAQ#How_to_create_a_good_proposal
>> ?>
>> >   o
>> > Gnangarra, your points about the issues with bulk uploads in
>> > Commons would make a sound proposal-- a proposal does not have
>> > to be a new tool in the least. The part about uploading large
>> > files is out of scope for our team though (see link above about
>> > our areas of focus, the issue is infrastructural
>> > <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86436>and too large for
>> what
>> > we can take on). I still believe there is value in suggesting
>> > it, though.
>> >   o
>> > We have Talk to Us
>> > <
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/Updates/Talk_to_Us
>> >hours
>> > on January 19-- where the entire team will be available for a
>> > video call to help folks who want to write proposals and polish
>> > them so that they may get selected.
>> >
>> >
>> >   *
>> > What if what we want fixed is larger than what the Community Tech
>> > team can accomplish?
>> >   o
>> > This year, we will be talking directly with leadership about
>> > larger wishes that we can't fulfill ourselves. To make this
>> > possible, we will no longer be formally 'Archiving' ideas. One
>> > improvement we are implementing from conversations with all of
>> > you at past Talk to Us Hours and other places, is that we will
>> > place projects that are too large for us into a new category
>> > called “Larger Suggestions'' because we still want people to be
>> > able to voice those needs. We plan to share this with the
>> > Foundation's leadership during the WMF's annual planning, which
>> > takes place in the spring.
>> >   o
>> > This being said, if you have an idea that may be too large for
>> > us to take on, I would also encourage you to come to Talk to Us
>> > Hours (link above) and see if we can help you workshop the
>> >

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Re: Re: Uplifting the multimedia stack (was: Community Wishlist Survery)

[Gnangarra]

Amir

you raise a good point how do things get into the next budget, the simple
answer is first to have people/teams responsible for each of the projects.
Having someone accountable stops the ball being dropped as easily, it means
WMF starts looking at needs on longer timetables. We've seen this with
everything else the WMF does but not where it matters the most the points
which each community relies on.

In the end we should go begging to WMF for platforms to maintained. nor
should we be fighting against a wishlist gadgets just to get heard even
when that list rejects us because its too big an issue.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 16:51, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> (Speaking in my volunteer capacity)
> I doubt there is any malicious intent by WMF. I personally think the
> underlying problem is time. Let me explain.
>
> Fixing a big issue in software takes time (I wrote a long essay about it
> in this thread) so it makes sense WMF annual planning to focus on issues
> before they get to a level that hinders community's work. The problem is
> that an issue doesn't get enough attention if it's not severe enough to
> affect users so the cycle of frustration continues. For example, I sent an
> email in February 2021, at the start of annual planning, to one of the
> directors at product outlining all of the issues of multimedia stack.
> Because at that point, it wasn't this bad, it didn't make it to FY21-22
> plans. Now I feel like a cassandra. We have similar issues in lots of other
> places that will lead to frustration. Load balancers (pybal), dumps, beta
> cluster, flagged revs, patrolling tools, etc. etc.
>
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 8:21 AM bawolff  wrote:
>
>> Honestly, I find the "not in the annual plan" thing more damning than the
>> actual issue at hand.
>>
>> The core competency of WMF is supposed to be keeping the site running.
>> WMF does a lot of things, some of them very useful, others less so, but at
>> its core its mission is to keep the site going. Everything else should be
>> secondary to that.
>>
>> It should be obvious that running a 300 TB+ media store servicing 70
>> billion requests a month requires occasional investment and maintenance
>>
>> And yet, this was not only not in this year's annual plan, it has been
>> ignored in the annual plan for many many years. We didn't get to this state
>> by just 1 year of neglect.
>>
>> Which raises the question - If wmf is not in the business of keeping the
>> Wikimedia sites going, what is it in the business of?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 6:01 AM Kunal Mehta  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On 1/1/22 12:10, Asaf Bartov wrote:
>>> > It seems to me there are *very few* people who could change status
>>> quo,
>>> > not much more than a handful: the Foundation's executive leadership
>>> (in
>>> > its annual planning work, coming up this first quarter of 2022), and
>>> the
>>> > Board of Trustees.
>>>
>>> If the goal is to get paid WMF staff to fix the issues, then you're
>>> correct. However, I do not believe that as a solution is healthy
>>> long-term. The WMF isn't perfect and I don't think it's desirable to
>>> have a huge WMF that tries to do everything and has a monopoly on
>>> technical prioritization.
>>>
>>> The technical stack must be co-owned by volunteers and paid staff from
>>> different orgs at all levels. It's significantly more straightforward
>>> now for trusted volunteers to get NDA/deployment access than it used to
>>> be, there are dedicated training sessions, etc.
>>>
>>> Given that the multimedia stack is neglected and the WMF has given no
>>> indication it intends to work on/fix the problem, we should be
>>> recruiting people outside the WMF's paid staff who are interested in
>>> working on this and give them the necessary access/mentorship to get it
>>> done. Given the amount of work on e.g. T40010[1] to develop an
>>> alternative SVG renderer, I'm sure those people exist.
>>>
>>> Take moving Thumbor to Buster[2] for example. That requires
>>> forward-porting some Debian packages written Python, and then testing in
>>> WMCS that there's no horrible regressions in newer imagemagick, librsvg,
>>> etc. I'm always happy to mentor people w/r to Debian packaging (and have
>>> done so in the past), and there are a decent amount of people in our
>>> community who know Python, and likely others from the Commons community
>>> who would be willing to help with testing and dealing with whatever
>>> fallout.
>>>
>>> So I think the status quo can be changed by just about anyone who is
>>> motivated to do so, not by trying to convince the WMF to change its
>>> prioritization, but just by doing the work. We should be empowering
>>> those people rather than continuing to further entrench a WMF technical
>>> monopoly.
>>>
>>> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T40010
>>> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T216815
>>>
>>> -- Legoktm
>>> ___
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>>> To 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Commons-l] Re: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Uplifting the multimedia stack (was: Community Wishlist Survery)

[Gnangarra]

Its one thing allowing access and supporting volunteers, its another to be
abrogating it's responsibility to ensure the stable running of the projecst
for which its collecting millions of dollars in donations every year.

WMF key purpose is to provide the infrastructure need for every project to
operate, at the moment there is no apparent effort from the WMF to do that
for Wikimedia Commons despites it being the vital source for every projects
multimedia.  This isnt one off missed opportunity, its failed in that
responsibility for year after year and now we as contributors are baring
the fruits of that neglect.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 14:01, Kunal Mehta  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 1/1/22 12:10, Asaf Bartov wrote:
> > It seems to me there are *very few* people who could change status quo,
> > not much more than a handful: the Foundation's executive leadership (in
> > its annual planning work, coming up this first quarter of 2022), and the
> > Board of Trustees.
>
> If the goal is to get paid WMF staff to fix the issues, then you're
> correct. However, I do not believe that as a solution is healthy
> long-term. The WMF isn't perfect and I don't think it's desirable to
> have a huge WMF that tries to do everything and has a monopoly on
> technical prioritization.
>
> The technical stack must be co-owned by volunteers and paid staff from
> different orgs at all levels. It's significantly more straightforward
> now for trusted volunteers to get NDA/deployment access than it used to
> be, there are dedicated training sessions, etc.
>
> Given that the multimedia stack is neglected and the WMF has given no
> indication it intends to work on/fix the problem, we should be
> recruiting people outside the WMF's paid staff who are interested in
> working on this and give them the necessary access/mentorship to get it
> done. Given the amount of work on e.g. T40010[1] to develop an
> alternative SVG renderer, I'm sure those people exist.
>
> Take moving Thumbor to Buster[2] for example. That requires
> forward-porting some Debian packages written Python, and then testing in
> WMCS that there's no horrible regressions in newer imagemagick, librsvg,
> etc. I'm always happy to mentor people w/r to Debian packaging (and have
> done so in the past), and there are a decent amount of people in our
> community who know Python, and likely others from the Commons community
> who would be willing to help with testing and dealing with whatever
> fallout.
>
> So I think the status quo can be changed by just about anyone who is
> motivated to do so, not by trying to convince the WMF to change its
> prioritization, but just by doing the work. We should be empowering
> those people rather than continuing to further entrench a WMF technical
> monopoly.
>
> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T40010
> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T216815
>
> -- Legoktm
> ___
> Commons-l mailing list -- common...@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to commons-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>


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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Are we losing our readers?

[Gnangarra]

Falling readers means less awareness of being able to edit, that means less
contributors, and less donations.  Over the last 10 years we've put a lot
of effort and support into the basic contribution processes, but the
contributions need to shift to more of what our new audiences are expecting
from websites.  With such a change there is both a need to embrace it and
to facilitate learning the skills, investing in that learning curve.

We cant stay where we are, and we cant move forward without bringing the
community along

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 at 19:59, Vi to  wrote:

> Just a couple of minutes ago I wanted to point out while chatting that two
> (shitty) singers work together because they work for the same major. A
> bunch of years ago I had to open some Google result to find such info, now
> I don't.
>
> Loss of readers is not bad in itself, it can be if there's a significant
> number of potential new editors among the readers we lose in this way
> (also, readers could affect fundraising, but I think we already make enough
> of it). Anecdotically I think new editors rather come from those who look
> for info which cannot be found in knowledge graph, but surely this requires
> a proper investigation.
>
> Vito
>
> Il giorno sab 8 gen 2022 alle ore 12:39 Francesc Fort <
> taronjasatsu...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> The slow but steady decrease in readerships is known and has been
>> identified for a long. An important niche of readership are quick answers
>> for trivia (such as "what's the capital of X country") and there are tools
>> (some of those, powered by Wikidata) working better than a classical google
>> search and clicking on the Wikipedia article.
>>
>> I mean, we talked a lot about this during Strategy. We just must find a
>> solution.
>>
>> F.
>>
>> Missatge de RonnieV  del dia ds., 8 de
>> gen. 2022 a les 10:03:
>>
>>> Could there something be wrong with the presentation?
>>>
>>> The total number of edits at the English Wikipedia should have dropped
>>> 21,23% https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org
>>> 
>>> The numbers at
>>> https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org/contributing/edits/normal|table|2-year|~total|monthly
>>> do show 63.8M edits in 2021 and only 61.5M in 2020.
>>>
>>> Do I misinterpret the graph?
>>> ---
>>> Met vriendelijke groet,
>>>
>>> RonnieV
>>>
>>>
>>> Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga schreef op 2022-01-07 18:51:
>>>
>>> There's another option: the 2020 pandemic lockdowns made a huge peak on
>>> views, so year on year, 2021 has worse results.
>>>
>>> 2022(e)ko urt. 7(a) 18:41 erabiltzaileak hau idatzi du (Anders
>>> Wennersten ):
>>>
>>> When I look at statistics for mature wikipedias: en, de pl, nl they all
>>> show a decrease of views of 13-15% in last 12 months from a year ago,
>>> and number of active editors down 10- 20 % (with exception of en).
>>>
>>> Has this been analysed somewhere, are we losing our readers and
>>> contributors or is it mostly Google that access our info "smarter" not
>>> creating "views"
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>> https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/de.wikipedia.org
>>>
>>> https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/en.wikipedia.org
>>>
>>> https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/nl.wikipedia.org
>>>
>>> https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/pl.wikipedia.org
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: The Wikimedia Foundation Research Award of the Year - Call for Nominations

[Gnangarra]

I can understand the indeed for all the publications to be published in one
common language, to enable easier comparison between works and to be able
to share the work across more of the community so we can benefit from the
work.

Perhaps there can be some support provided by the WMF to enable
translations of the research to english in a timely manner. Or at least
allow for an abstract to translated now and for finalists of the potential
works to be translated. Inclusion of communities must be our first priority
above any recognition through awards anything short of that goal
doesnt bestow any value to being awarded something as part of a global
community.

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 at 17:40, F. Xavier Dengra i Grau via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Hi/Bon dia
>
> As being said, I assume that the eligibility criteria for the award means
> that some reviews or research articles published by colleagues or by me in
> Catalan are considered second-class publications.
>
> If publishing about Wikimedia in our mother languages (most of them
> minorized at several or all levels) results as an exclusion from Wikimedia
> awards, I suspect that the inclusivity of 2030 Strategy is not being
> understood nor starting well at all.
>
> Xavier Dengra
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>
> El dissabte, 8 de gener 2022 a les 10:20, Gereon Kalkuhl <
> gkalk...@freenet.de> va escriure:
>
> > Thank you, Leila.
> >
> > It's good to have an award like this and I always apreaciate the
> >
> > publications.
> >
> > We have to think about "publication must be available in English" though.
> >
> > On the top of my head I can think of very good non-English research that
> >
> > was published last year.
> >
> > Do we want to be global and inclusive?
> >
> > Best, Gereon
> >
> > Am 07.01.2022 um 20:48 schrieb Leila Zia:
> >
> > > [Apologies for cross-posting.]
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > We invite you to nominate one or more scholarly research publications
> > >
> > > to be considered for the Wikimedia Foundation Research Award of the
> > >
> > > Year. Learn more below.
> > >
> > > =Purpose of the award=
> > >
> > > Recognize recent research on or about the Wikimedia projects or recent
> > >
> > > research that is of importance to the Wikimedia projects. Recognize
> > >
> > > the researchers behind the research.
> > >
> > > You can learn more about 2021's winners at
> > >
> > > https://research.wikimedia.org/awards.html .
> > >
> > > =Eligibility criteria=
> > >
> > > Your nomination must meet the following criteria:
> > >
> > > -   The research must be on, about, using data from, and/or of
> > >
> > > importance to Wikipedia, Wikidata, Wikisource, Wikimedia Commons or
> > >
> > > other Wikimedia projects.
> > >
> > > -   The publication must be available in English.
> > >
> > > -   The research must have been published between January 1, 2021 and
> > >
> > > December 31, 2021.
> > >
> > >
> > > =Nomination process=
> > >
> > > Submit your nominations by 2022-02-07 through
> > >
> > > https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=wmfray2021 . We will ask you
> > >
> > > to provide the following information in your nomination:
> > >
> > > -   Title of the manuscript
> > > -   A copy of the manuscript you are nominating
> > > -   A summary of the research and a clear justification for why the
> work
> > >
> > > merits the award (in 350 words or fewer in English).
> > >
> > > Note that self-nominations and nominations of others' work are both
> welcome.
> > >
> > > ==Winner(s)==
> > >
> > > The winner(s) will be announced in a ceremony as part of Wiki Workshop
> > >
> > > 2022: https://wikiworkshop.org/2022/ .
> > >
> > > If you have any questions, please contact us at
> > >
> > > wmf-ray-2...@easychair.org or here.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Benjamin Mako Hill (University of Washington)
> > >
> > > Leila Zia (Wikimedia Foundation)
> > >
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > >
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> >
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

Kaya Natalia

Thank you for the in depth response and clarification of changes to the
wishlist process, as well as how the tech team works.  We do appreciate
knowing that larger issues can be listed and will actually go somewhere
rather than being dismissed as too large.  One thing I'd hope to see is the
tech team to have a specialist contact for each project so that project
specific issues can be highlighted to someone who can translate between
contributors who dont have the tech knowledge or language to assist issues
being clearly reported.

Boodarwun
Gnangarra

On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 at 01:43, Natalia Rodriguez 
wrote:

> Hey all,
> Nice to meet many of you for the first time! Thanks for your feedback and
> for raising larger concerns around resource allocation at the Foundation.
> These concerns are extremely valid-- especially the ones around allocating
> resources for less supported platforms such as Commons and broken
> infrastructure. The wishlist process will begin next week with the proposal
> phase starting Jan 10.
>
> In the email thread, I identified some open questions about the Wishlist
> process so I am answering them here.
>
>
>- Can we vote/focus on the maintenance of tools rather than new tools?
>- Yes. The wishes that we work on do not have to be associated with a
>   new tool. In the past we’ve taken on projects that were maintenance
>   related. For example, in the last year, we took on improvement projects 
> for
>   Wikisource Export and Wikisource OCR tools, among other initiatives. We
>   also maintain and fix all the tools we’ve built in the past. Check
>   out the fresh documentation about what qualifies as a proposal here.
>   
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/FAQ#How_to_create_a_good_proposal?>
>   - Gnangarra, your points about the issues with bulk uploads in
>   Commons would make a sound proposal-- a proposal does not have to be a 
> new
>   tool in the least. The part about uploading large files is out of scope 
> for
>   our team though (see link above about our areas of focus, the issue is
>   infrastructural <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86436> and too
>   large for what we can take on). I still believe there is value in
>   suggesting it, though.
>   - We have Talk to Us
>   
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/Updates/Talk_to_Us>
>   hours on January 19-- where the entire team will be available for a 
> video
>   call to help folks who want to write proposals and polish them so that 
> they
>   may get selected.
>
>
>
>- What if what we want fixed is larger than what the Community Tech
>team can accomplish?
>- This year, we will be talking directly with leadership about larger
>   wishes that we can't fulfill ourselves. To make this possible, we will 
> no
>   longer be formally 'Archiving' ideas. One improvement we are 
> implementing
>   from conversations with all of you at past Talk to Us Hours and other
>   places, is that we will place projects that are too large for us into a 
> new
>   category called “Larger Suggestions'' because we still want people to be
>   able to voice those needs. We plan to share this with the Foundation's
>   leadership during the WMF's annual planning, which takes place in the
>   spring.
>   - This being said, if you have an idea that may be too large for us
>   to take on, I would also encourage you to come to Talk to Us Hours (link
>   above) and see if we can help you workshop the proposal into something 
> we
>   can help with. If we can’t then I would still highly encourage you to
>   propose, by all means! Chances are if you think it’s an important 
> problem,
>   many other members do as well.
>   - Finally, the wishlist isn't just for Community Tech. Volunteer
>   developers and other Wikimedia Foundation teams have taken on wishes 
> from
>   the wishlist. For this reason, there is a chance that a wish may not be
>   appropriate for our team, but it can be addressed by someone else.
>
>
>
>- Why isn’t the WMF fixing what we feel are  be the most urgently
>needed fixes in functionality?
>- This is a larger question that gets answered at the board and
>   C-leadership levels. There are also some relatively new teams at the
>   Foundation, such as Architecture and Platform Engineering, that aim to
>   improve the technical infrastructure overall in the years to come. 
> However,
>   every team can help with the answer and Community Tech can help with
>   communication of technical needs. This “Larger Suggestions” co

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

thank you Geni

> HandBrake can transcode dirrect to WebM these days.
>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 at 13:40, geni  wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 at 06:13, Gnangarra  wrote:
> > We found work arounds mostly by paying for 3rd commercial software to do
> the conversion to webm then hoping uploadwizard would work.
>
>
> HandBrake can transcode dirrect to WebM these days.
>
> --
> geni
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-- 
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: [Commons-l] Re: Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Uplifting the multimedia stack (was: Community Wishlist Survery)

[Gnangarra]

I see part of the problem is that the contributors experiencing the biggest
impact arent the same contributors that have the technical skill sets to
appropriately explain and understand the issues. Adding the the need to be
able to make comparisons between other areas of need just makes its even
more difficult.  None of us want to be putting forward arguments that say
that the WMF should neglect supporting Wikidata functions so that repairs
can be made to Commons functions, this is a loss for everyone.

I know that the experience of the volunteers who spent 3 months in limbo
trying to get the 2021 Wikimania videos converted and uploaded  will feed
back through to WMF hierarchy highlighting, but whether that taken has a
priority needing to be fixed or bug to swatted is unknown.  The underlying
issue isnt so much that we need to fix software(though we do) as it is that
we have structural problems in the way the WMF technical team interacts
with each project. With that its ability to keep with the growth and
maintenance necessary to function effectively.

The point I raised is that like many other aspects the software and
technical support along with its communication channels havent effectively
kept up with the needs of the community, not even the wishlist itself can
keep up with it.  This is why I said we need to pause and rethink the whole
process, focus on clearing whats on the phabricator while we do so.

The frustration comes from being able to upload a video to the likes of
youtube or vimeo in about 15-20 minutes, where as its takes 30 hours to
convert to webm on proprietary software which I have to pay for and then
10-12 attempts over the space of a week or two to upload the video to
commons.  The available tools like Videoconvertor, and Video2Commons are so
unstable that they dont survive the 30 hour conversion process.


On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 04:38, Mike Peel  wrote:

> Hi Asaf,
>
> That's a good response, but I'm not sure it provides a practical way
> forward. How can volunteers bring this issue to the attention of the WMF
> leadership to get the allocation of the time of Wikimedia staff who can
> take ownership implement changes here?
>
> Presumably emails on these lists have relatively little impact at the
> most senior levels, so they aren't a good way forward - and similarly on
> Phabricator.
>
> The Wishlist provides a way of showcasing issues and a relatively clear
> way forward to get them implemented, but with really limited capacity.
>
> How would a case for technical support be made apart from that? It's not
> clear if a simple survey would be sufficient. Would an RfC and
> discussion on meta help? Does it need the media to be involved to make
> it a public crisis? Or should it be proposed as a grant request, perhaps
> for a Wikimedia affiliate to implement? Or is there another avenue that
> could be persued? Bearing in mind that there's no practical way for
> community members to propose changes to the WMF annual plan for multiple
> years now.
>
> Sorry to defocus things and express more frustration, but I think there
> should be a clear way forward with this type of issue, which isn't
> obvious right now. Personally, my hopes are on the Wishlist, although
> I'll be reposting a 14-year-old issue there for the fifth time when that
> process opens on the 10th January...
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> On 1/1/22 20:10:43, Asaf Bartov wrote:
> > Writing in my volunteer capacity:
> >
> > On Sat, 1 Jan 2022, 08:43 Amir Sarabadani  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Honestly, the situation is more dire than you think. For example,
> > until a couple months ago, we didn't have backups for the media
> > files. There was a live copy in the secondary datacenter but for
> > example if due to a software issue, we lost some files, they were
> > gone. I would like to thank Jaime Crespo for pushing for it and
> > implementing the backups.
> >
> > But I beat my drum again, it's not something you can fix overnight.
> > I'm sure people are monitoring this mailing list and are aware of
> > the problem.
> >
> >
> > [My goal in this post is to ficus effort and reduce frustration.]
> >
> > Yes, people reading here are aware, and absolutely none of them expects
> > this (i.e. multimedia technical debt and missing features) to be fixed
> > overnight.
> >
> > What's lacking, as you pointed out, is ownership of the problem.  To own
> > the problem, one must have *both* technical understanding of the issues
> > *and* a mandate to devote resources to addressing them.
> >
> > It is this *combination* that we don't have at the moment. Lots of
> > technical people are aware, and some of them quite willing to work
> > toward addressing the issues, but they are not empowered to set
> > priorities and commit resources for an effort of that scale, and the
> > problems, for the most part, don't easily lend themselves to volunteer
> > development.
> >
> > It seems to me there are 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

>
> Core challenges like Commons stability + capacity deserve their own
> thread! I believe the wishlist is traditionally for something else.


There is nowhere else to raise these issue, especially for people like me
who are photographers not a software and tech person. I know the
phabricator exists and comment there occasionally but again things get
close because its too hard.

Tools are great, new tools can sometimes improve other times they generate
more issues.

I get it I'd rather get together with a bunch of photographers, talk gear,
test gear, and look to outdo each other with the best shots.  Wishlist, the
Hack-a-thons serve this need for the tech community. we get to offer up
some ideas on what could make things easier for us.  The wish list also the
one time of the year where everyone is listen to needs.

The list of issues on Commons are staggering and Commons feeds into every
other project, it was created to support media uploads.  As part of COT for
2021 I was also involved in uploading of all the session recordings, and I
answered many questions about why was it taking so long, will captions be
added all I could say was Commons wasnt letting us upload large files,
Video2Commons, and VideoConverter kept falling over we couldnt get answers.
We found work arounds mostly by paying for 3rd commercial software to do
the conversion to webm then hoping uploadwizard would work. We even tried
to find server side uploading support but despite instructions on how that
isnt supported.

I see no need to create new tools when the underlying systems are failing,
its clear indication that we as community have lost our way.  The wishlist
get what little funding the WMF is willing to spend on tech.  As some who
has participated in the wishlist over the years, tried to get funding to
fix items like QRpedia,  the thing I see is that this isnt working the tech
teams arent keeping up with the core functions of projects so forget about
extra toys.  Every other aspect of the community has had reviews been first
being paused, the whole community has been consulted, and then its been
realigned to suit future needs.   Its all for nothing if we dont drill down
to the core of the tech that the whole thing relies upon,  if that means we
need to spend on extra people then the cost is justifiable because every
dollar of the hundred million stashed away in future funds is worthless if
the systems keeps failing or like commons appears to have reached
completely collapses.

We dont need wishes, or votes to decide whats important when theres no way
to contribute.


On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 23:50, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Szymon: neat, thanks.  How do past suggestions carry over?
>
> We should definitely make more use of community-curated priority lists
> (annotated with how separable / hard they are; where they sit on the 'new
> solution <--> pay off tech debt' spectrum).  And see if we can support a
> broader range of technical hubs + community groups tackling some of them.
>
> Core challenges like Commons stability + capacity deserve their own
> thread! I believe the wishlist is traditionally for something else.
>
> NBB: An interesting idea (below).  It would be good for us to develop
> patterns w/ more shared creative leeway for experimenting with a collective
> call to action around major initiatives.  Mozilla has some approaches to
> this. Including bounties, grants, outreach campaigns to recruit new
> contributors, awards for essential tools, workshops to train people in
> related toolchains so they can help move the space forward.
>
> S.
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:52 AM  wrote:
>
>> This is a proposal that would need to be included in next year's funding
>> plan. It also would involve an obligation for the other teams within the
>> Foundation.
>>
>> **Part 1: Funding redistribution and Big Ticket team**
>> I propose that we stand-up a 2nd community wishlist team... to handle the
>> "Big Ticket" items, beyond the capacities of the current team.
>> **Part 2: blocked item obligations**
>>
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

The wishlist are things the WMF puts resources to including staff time

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 17:46, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> Is the community wishlist not for for projects run by volunteers?
> Volunteers do what they choose, employees do what they are paid for.
> Keeping the Wikis functional should be the work of employees and the WMF.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> *From:* Gnangarra [mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 29 December 2021 07:37
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming.
> Help us and prepare
>
>
>
> Kaya
>
>
> Instead of putting resources into making more tools, how about putting
> more resources into sustainability. For a large part of the last 12 months
> Commons has been unable to upload large files, bulk upload tools falling
> over have been hampering efforts to engage with GLAMs.   Every other aspect
> of the WMF work has been put on hold while reviews into the systems take
> place. I think it's time to put new development on hold or at least limit
> priority and capacity then focus efforts on updating and upgrading existing
> tools. If those tools cant be fixed, rewrite them from scratch
>
>
>
> Gnangarra
>
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 12:08, Szymon Grabarczuk 
> wrote:
>
> The Community Wishlist Survey 2022
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022> starts
> in less than two weeks (Monday 10 January 2022, 18:00 UTC
> <https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20220110T1800>).
> We, the team organizing the Survey, need your help.
>
>- Translate important messages
>
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate=agg-Community_Wishlist_Survey=page>
>and/or
>- Promote the Survey
><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/Help_us>
>among anyone and everyone you know who has an account on wiki. Promote the
>Survey on social media, via instant messaging apps, in other groups and
>chats, in your WikiProject, Wikimedia affiliate - wherever contributors
>with registered accounts may be.
>- You may also start thinking about ideas for technical improvements
>or even writing them down in the CWS sandbox
><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/Sandbox>.
>
> *Why are we asking?*
>
>- We have improved the documentation
><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/FAQ>. It's
>friendlier and easier to use. This will mean little if it's only in 
> English.
>- Thousands of volunteers haven't participated in the Survey yet. We'd
>like to improve that, too. Three years ago, 1387 people participated. Last
>year, there were 1773 of them. We hope that in the upcoming edition, there
>will be even more - if you help us with translations. Also, you are better
>than us in contacting Wikimedians outside of wikis. We have prepared some
>images to share. More to come.
>
> *What is the Community Wishlist Survey?*
>
>
>
> It's an annual survey that allows contributors to the Wikimedia projects
> to propose and vote for tools and platform improvements. Long years of
> experience in editing or technical skills are not required.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your time and attention. To those who have participated in
> the Survey - many thanks for your dedication.
>
>
>
> See you in January!
>
>
>
> *Szymon Grabarczuk *(he/him)
>
> Community Relations Specialist
>
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> ___
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> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> GN.
>
> * 2021*
>
> *Celebrating 20 years of Wikipedia*
>
>
>
>
>
> Wikimania: *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.*
> https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>
> Noongarpedia: *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not
> specified.*https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

The wishlist has reached the end of useful life, I think before we go down
that track again we have to look hard at what purpose it serves and what
other parts of the whole IT/programming area needs to be consider. To do
that put the wish list on hold, clear the backlog of phabricator tickets
and bring what tools we have had created over the last 15 years back to
full serviceability or shut them down and replace them.

In saying that, there may still be a much needed tool so limit what gets
accepted and ask for needs fixing

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 19:26, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> I'm not debating your note. It is very valid that we lack proper support
> for multimedia stack. I myself wrote a detailed rant on how broken it is
> [1] but three notes:
>  - Fixing something like this takes time, you need to assign the budget
> for it (which means it has to be done during the annual planning) and if
> gets approved, you need to start it with the fiscal year (meaning July
> 2022) and then hire (meaning, write JD, do recruitment, interview lots of
> people, get them hired) which can take from several months to years. Once
> they are hired, you need to onboard them and let them learn about our
> technical infrastructure which takes at least two good months. Software
> engineering is not magic, it takes time, blood and sweat. [2]
>  - Making another team focus on multimedia requires changes in planning,
> budget, OKR, etc. etc. Are we sure moving the focus of teams is a good
> idea? Most teams are already focusing on vital parts of wikimedia and
> changing the focus will turn this into a whack-a-mole game where we fix
> multimedia but now we have critical issues in security or performance.
>  - Voting Wishlist survey is a good band-aid in the meantime. To at least
> address the worst parts for now.
>
> I don't understand your point tbh, either you think it's a good idea to
> make requests for improvements in multimedia in the wishlist survey or you
> think it's not. If you think it's not, then it's offtopic to this thread.
>
> [1]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/WMPZHMXSLQJ6GONAVTFLDFFMPNJDVORS/
> [2] There is a classic book in this topic called "The Mythical Man-month"
>
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 11:41 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
>
>> we have to vote for regular maintenance and support for
>> essential functions like uploading files which is the core mission of
>> Wikimedia Commons
>>
>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 17:32, Amir Sarabadani 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The wishlist survey is defined as:
>>> > The Community Wishlist Survey is an annual survey that allows
>>> contributors to the Wikimedia projects to propose and vote for tools and
>>> platform improvements
>>>
>>> That doesn't necessarily translate into just "new tools". The community
>>> can wish for better support of multimedia stack and improvements on the
>>> multimedia platform and If it gets enough votes, I'm hopeful it'll be
>>> picked up.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 8:02 AM Željko Blaće  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice. This looks much better than before. Previously it felt so many
>>>> people had high hopes for projects that are outside of capacities that are
>>>> committed to this project. I feel this needs to be a super clear fact from
>>>> the start and not ask for the global community to commit XYZ number of
>>>> hours in the actions of promoting, translating, proposing and decision
>>>> making processes when developers can commit far less back to the same
>>>> community. Otherwise it feels like unbalanced work from a more holistic
>>>> perspective, but this is also non-exceptional...no?
>>>> ___
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>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Amir (he/him)
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikim

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

we have to vote for regular maintenance and support for essential functions
like uploading files which is the core mission of Wikimedia Commons

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 17:32, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> The wishlist survey is defined as:
> > The Community Wishlist Survey is an annual survey that allows
> contributors to the Wikimedia projects to propose and vote for tools and
> platform improvements
>
> That doesn't necessarily translate into just "new tools". The community
> can wish for better support of multimedia stack and improvements on the
> multimedia platform and If it gets enough votes, I'm hopeful it'll be
> picked up.
>
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 8:02 AM Željko Blaće  wrote:
>
>> Nice. This looks much better than before. Previously it felt so many
>> people had high hopes for projects that are outside of capacities that are
>> committed to this project. I feel this needs to be a super clear fact from
>> the start and not ask for the global community to commit XYZ number of
>> hours in the actions of promoting, translating, proposing and decision
>> making processes when developers can commit far less back to the same
>> community. Otherwise it feels like unbalanced work from a more holistic
>> perspective, but this is also non-exceptional...no?
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
>
> ___
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-- 
GN.
* 2021*
*Celebrating 20 years of Wikipedia*


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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Community Wishlist Survey 2022 is coming. Help us and prepare

[Gnangarra]

Kaya

Instead of putting resources into making more tools, how about putting more
resources into sustainability. For a large part of the last 12 months
Commons has been unable to upload large files, bulk upload tools falling
over have been hampering efforts to engage with GLAMs.   Every other aspect
of the WMF work has been put on hold while reviews into the systems take
place. I think it's time to put new development on hold or at least limit
priority and capacity then focus efforts on updating and upgrading existing
tools. If those tools cant be fixed, rewrite them from scratch

Gnangarra

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 12:08, Szymon Grabarczuk 
wrote:

> The Community Wishlist Survey 2022
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022> starts
> in less than two weeks (Monday 10 January 2022, 18:00 UTC
> <https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20220110T1800>).
> We, the team organizing the Survey, need your help.
>
>- Translate important messages
>
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate=agg-Community_Wishlist_Survey=page>
>and/or
>- Promote the Survey
><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/Help_us>
>among anyone and everyone you know who has an account on wiki. Promote the
>Survey on social media, via instant messaging apps, in other groups and
>chats, in your WikiProject, Wikimedia affiliate - wherever contributors
>with registered accounts may be.
>- You may also start thinking about ideas for technical improvements
>or even writing them down in the CWS sandbox
><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/Sandbox>.
>
> *Why are we asking?*
>
>- We have improved the documentation
><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey/FAQ>. It's
>friendlier and easier to use. This will mean little if it's only in 
> English.
>- Thousands of volunteers haven't participated in the Survey yet. We'd
>like to improve that, too. Three years ago, 1387 people participated. Last
>year, there were 1773 of them. We hope that in the upcoming edition, there
>will be even more - if you help us with translations. Also, you are better
>than us in contacting Wikimedians outside of wikis. We have prepared some
>images to share. More to come.
>
> *What is the Community Wishlist Survey?*
>
> It's an annual survey that allows contributors to the Wikimedia projects
> to propose and vote for tools and platform improvements. Long years of
> experience in editing or technical skills are not required.
>
> Thank you for your time and attention. To those who have participated in
> the Survey - many thanks for your dedication.
>
> See you in January!
>
> Szymon Grabarczuk (he/him)
>
> Community Relations Specialist
>
> Wikimedia Foundation
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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-- 
GN.
* 2021*
*Celebrating 20 years of Wikipedia*


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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Fwd: Meta, WikiMedia, and the Hewlett Foundation partner with Africa No Filter

[Gnangarra]

rouped together in a
> >> single announcement, we can't control the way a third party decides to
> >> share their information.
> >>
> >> Our work with the Africa Union has started in 2021 as part of the work
> >> the Foundation has done to listen to local initiatives, identify ways
> >> to engage, and support existing priorities in the region. Recognizing
> >> we can always do better, our teams are plugged into the field as much
> >> as possible, hearing needs and identifying synergies to what the
> >> movement is prioritizing locally. We strongly believe this project is
> >> aligned and follows the line of other projects we've been supporting
> >> in the region. This or any other project is also not coming from staff
> >> or stakeholders outside of Africa, and it's our critical intention
> >> that relevant work for the region and our movement there is led and
> >> supported regionally. We can also assure you that the project will
> >> continue to have plenty of room for feedback and discussion, as it's
> >> meant to be implemented within the movement priorities in 2022. We
> >> expect to have those interested partake and get involved!
> >>
> >> Your email does flag something relevant that we take to heart, which
> >> is how we can find ways to make sure relevant stakeholders locally can
> >> have better participation and due diligence earlier in these
> >> processes. Our intention will never be to create competing priorities,
> >> yet we don't think it's also feasible to consult each and every
> >> opportunity at hand, creating even extra work for volunteers. We
> >> believe there's a delicate balance, and the Foundation continues to do
> >> its best to find the best ways to reach. We take this opportunity as a
> >> learning on how more expansive and trust-building forums can be
> >> created while balancing volunteer requests, as we continue to
> >> regionalize and localize our work as much as possible as mandated by
> >> Movement Strategy.
> >>
> >> We look forward to sharing more about this project in January 2022,
> >> and to more opportunities for dialogue in the new year. I wish you a
> >> restful and lovely break, in hopes the new year brings us more spaces
> >> to share and build together.
> >>
> >> Warmly,
> >> Jorge
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 12:58 AM Gnangarra  wrote:
> >>
> >> HI Jorge
> >>
> >> I find it disturbing that you dont have a detailed answer even
> >> now, and that the WMF would agree to partnerships which dont
> >> respect the community its the community who has built and maintain
> >> the credibility of the projects.
> >>
> >> While its nice to see high level efforts from the WMF extreme care
> >> should be being taken in who we partner with and how they present
> >> the relationship.  I find it troubling that a partner can make an
> >> announcement and include a third party, especially when that
> >> third party has a long history for data collection, private data
> >> resale, supporting fake news, and violating copyright.
> >>
> >> Knowing this how robust are the data privacy exchanges what
> >> security is in place between the WMF and ANf & AU given that they
> >> are working with such a concerning third party and see the two as
> >> intertwined the "jumping of the gun" and link that third both very
> >> little respect for us
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Gnangarra
> >>
> >> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 03:39, Yael Weissburg
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> Thank you, Jorge, for this thoughtful and clear response.
> >>
> >> Florence, Xavier, and others: I know there's often good reason
> >> to message Wikimedia-l, and also to let you know that you can
> >> always reach the WMF Partnerships team at
> >> partnersh...@wikimedia.org and on our Meta page
> >> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Partnerships_team> if
> >> you want to engage with us directly!
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Yael
> >>
> >> --
> >> Yael Weissburg (she / her)
> >> Director, Strategic Partnerships
> >> Wikimedia Foundation
> >> E: yweissb...@wikimedia.o

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Introducing the Wikimedia Wikimedia Affiliates Environmental Sustainability Covenant

[Gnangarra]

fement-climatique/
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dr. Lukas Mezger
>> Vorsitzender des Präsidiums / chair of the Supervisory Board
>>
>> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
>> Tel. (030) 219 158 260 – (0151) 268 63 931
>> http://wikimedia.de
>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Approval of Human Rights Policy

[Gnangarra]

I think there is some poor wording being used ignoring nuances of the
English language and how different people speak it.  One point that hits
hard for me is the way its being framed as "policy" rather than
"principles".  Policy is too strong a word for its something that is
beholden with political obligations that shifts the WMF away from the core
pillars.  For many jurisdictions the term policy is going to translate into
activism, advocacy, even into the realm of labelling all Wikimedians as
lobbyists, or trouble makers.

Whereas if we take as a principle it sets this as an expectation of our
community and our internal activities, it does not cross that line into
areas which cause concern, dissent, and fear within governments, GLAMs,
government  agencies with whom we need to work. It also limits the risk to
communities who are charitable organisations, and individuals that want to
contribute without the fear of being labelled as a subversive.

Its one thing to consider what we do and put guides in place its another
for the WMF to step into areas, or push our contributors into positions
that have implications beyond sharing knowledge.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 at 22:02, Nathan  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 11:12 PM Dan Szymborski 
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> The WMF likes the *idea* of this being a community-driven, collaborative
>> project rather than actually doing the stuff that *makes* it a
>> community-driven, collaborative project. How many times does this process
>> have to repeat in identical fashion before we stop pretending that this
>> *is* a community-driven collaborative project? If the goal is simply to be
>> another generic top-down Silicon Valley information charity, just one that
>> has somehow procured a gigantic unpaid workforce that the elites can
>> command, then just state it outright so that people don't spend their free
>> hours toiling in the delusion they're part of a movement.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
> There's a misunderstanding here, I think. The Wikimedia movement and the
> Wikimedia projects are community-driven and collaborative. The WMF itself
> is not and has never been. People who expect the WMF to be managed by
> consensus, determined by RfC, are destined to always be disappointed.  The
> WMF certainly knows many people in the Wikimedia world have that
> expectation, and I suppose they considered and rejected the possibility of
> engaging in a community process for this policy. My criticism of the policy
> itself is that it contains very aspirational statements; I would have
> preferred it to be focused on what practical actions the WMF can take, and
> build a policy around how and when those actions will be taken.
>
> In any case, the WMF is not a governance experiment. The projects are, to
> some extent, although that is not their *purpose*. Expecting every policy
> and decision to be workshopped with "the community" is essentially
> demanding the WMF be dissolved.
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Fwd: Meta, WikiMedia, and the Hewlett Foundation partner with Africa No Filter

[Gnangarra]

HI Jorge

I find it disturbing that you dont have a detailed answer even now, and
that the WMF would agree to partnerships which dont respect the community
its the community who has built and maintain the credibility of the
projects.

While its nice to see high level efforts from the WMF extreme care should
be being taken in who we partner with and how they present the
relationship.  I find it troubling that a partner can make an announcement
and include a third party, especially when that third party has a long
history for data collection, private data resale, supporting fake news, and
violating copyright.

Knowing this how robust are the data privacy exchanges what security is in
place between the WMF and ANf & AU given that they are working with such a
concerning third party and see the two as intertwined the "jumping of the
gun" and link that third both very little respect for us

Regards
Gnangarra

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 03:39, Yael Weissburg 
wrote:

> Thank you, Jorge, for this thoughtful and clear response.
>
> Florence, Xavier, and others: I know there's often good reason to message
> Wikimedia-l, and also to let you know that you can always reach the WMF
> Partnerships team at partnersh...@wikimedia.org and on our Meta page
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Partnerships_team> if
> you want to engage with us directly!
>
> Best,
>
> Yael
>
> --
> Yael Weissburg (she / her)
> Director, Strategic Partnerships
> Wikimedia Foundation
> E: yweissb...@wikimedia.org 
> M: +1.415.513.6643
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 11:28 AM Jorge Vargas 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Florence,
>>
>> Thanks for your email. We wanted to acknowledge receipt and say that
>> we're working on a more detailed answer about the partnership with Africa
>> No Filter (ANF) and the Africa Union (AU), and to some of the higher-level
>> points you've raised around our general approach to this work.
>>
>> We're gathering all the right information to make sure we can offer a
>> comprehensive answer, but in short, to your first question, the
>> collaboration between WMF and ANF described in the announcement, is led by
>> the Foundation's Partnerships and Community Programs teams and will be
>> implemented in collaboration with Wikimedia communities. This collaboration
>> sits under a larger ongoing relationship with the African Union, who were
>> actually the ones who first connected us to ANF. We broadly introduced the
>> project during this specific session [1] at WikiIndaba, and have a
>> comprehensive Diff post coming up soon with more information about this
>> project's goals and how it connects with existing movement priorities,
>> which we are happy to forward to this thread when it’s live. Unfortunately,
>> ANF went slightly earlier on what was going to be a joint announcement, and
>> we're talking with them on how this came about.
>>
>> To be clear, we are not partnering on this project with Meta; we are
>> partnering solely with ANF and the Africa Union, within their 2063 Agenda
>> strategy [2] for the region. We have no involvement in the separate
>> partnership that ANF announced with Meta in the same announcement.
>>
>> We read your email as elevating some larger concerns we want to make sure
>> are heard, for us all to have a good faith and important dialogue on how we
>> inform, collaborate, and work with the Movement in partnership-related
>> activity. Our intention is never to create overlapping/conflictive work
>> with the ones in the Movement, but rather add value and collaborate, as we
>> believe we are doing in this case.
>>
>> We will be providing an answer soon with more details.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jorge Vargas
>> Director of Regional Partnerships
>>
>> [1]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiIndaba_conference_2021/Program/The_future_of_knowledge_creation_in_Africa_through_partnerships
>> [2] https://au.int/en/agenda2063/overview
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 11:36 AM F. Xavier Dengra i Grau via Wikimedia-l <
>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Thank you for raising up this topic in the list, Florence. I fully agree
>>> with you in all your points and find it of great concern, especially
>>> regarding accountability of the WMF towards the community. But also because
>>> its increasing agreements and decisions that are not thoroughly reviewed or
>>> shared before a long way (i.e. money, hiring and staffing time expenditure)
>>> has already been done.
>>>
>>> This matter can be linked a lot with the long debate that Galder

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Small gratitude to our fellow wikimedians

[Gnangarra]

In some ways we do https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2021:In_Memoriam

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 at 04:46, Camelia Boban  wrote:

> Hi everybody.
>
> Today, on the social media channels, we received the news about another
> wikimedian who is passed away: Steve Suleeman (User:Stephensuleeman from
> idwiki). As others in the recent or distant past: Spasimir Pilev
> (User:Спасимир Пилев from bgwiki), Pier Luigi Rocco (User:Moroboshi from
> itwiki), Elena Sanz Queiruga (User:ElsaBornFree from
> eswiki), User:SlimVirgin from enwiki, Krzysztof Machocki
> (User:Halibutt from plwiki).
>
> For these losses, I think we - as a community, through the Wikimedia
> Foundation - need to set up a fund to build a commemorative plaque to
> remember all the wikimedians we have lost.
>
> I would suggest it to be a thought from the community, extended also to
> all other major events of a wikimedian's life (marriage, birth of a child).
> We know a wikimedian often sacrifices the free time, dedicating a large
> part of their own real life to our projects and the movement. Would be a
> recognition from the community for the work done and a memory for the
> families, a "small gratitude to our fellow wikimedians" as someone said.
>
> I know that some affiliates are already doing this (eq. Wikimedia
> Indonesia), would be a lovely idea to do it in a centralized way at the
> level of the whole movement.
>
> What do you think?
> Camelia
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Meet the new Movement Charter Drafting Committee members

[Gnangarra]

gt;, guidelines at:
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> > <
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> >
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Meet the new Movement Charter Drafting Committee members

[Gnangarra]

strategy process.
>>>>
>>>> Of course broad geographic and project backgrounds, and good language
>>>>> diversity (within the drafting group and through available tools to 
>>>>> support
>>>>> work with others) are important for this work.  But please don't exclude
>>>>> any participant from that, based on the experimental mix of selection
>>>>> processes.  We are all wikimedians.  Runa and Jorge for instance have been
>>>>> advancing the global movement towards free knowledge, culture and tools 
>>>>> for
>>>>> a very long time.  And having a translation expert actively involved 
>>>>> should
>>>>> help amplify different voices :).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for my English, I am not a native English speaker, so maybe there
>>>> is a misunderstanding. I have not excluded anyone as you are saying. Runa
>>>> and Jorge are amazing people in the movement but I was talking about
>>>> geographical representation of the communities and they are appointed by
>>>> WMF as their representative, so geographical representation does not stand
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> PS - There are still many, many systemic gaps and biases in our
>>>>> communities and our knowledge.  The focus on elevating and connecting
>>>>> regional hubs may help address this, and I dearly hope to see thriving 
>>>>> hubs
>>>>> in Asia. But I wouldn't say the next billion participants, editors, and
>>>>> learners will come from any one region; rather from underserved 
>>>>> communities
>>>>> everywhere in the world! (And by stats like readership
>>>>> <https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/animations/wivivi/wivivi.html>,
>>>>> communities in Africa are still the least reached, including proportional
>>>>> to connectivity.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More than 4 billion people live here in South Asian and ESEAP
>>>> countries. If our next billion readers will not come from here by 2030,
>>>> then where will it come from? These are developing countries embracing
>>>> technology at a high rate. (Anyway, my opinion concerns Africa too. There
>>>> is only 1 representative from the entire Sub-Saharan Africa.)
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Investigation of possible AffCom's violations - your input welcomed!

[Gnangarra]

During my time on Wikimedia Australia Committee/board the Affcom members
were elected by the Affiliates, though like all committees individuals can
be cooped to fill specific needs

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 18:53, Paulo Santos Perneta 
wrote:

> "Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
> committee." - No, despite the dubious information that AffCom keeps about
> themselves on their meta page, they are not "elected", and they do not
> answer to the community 8Wikimedia Movement), as you seem to believe.
> They are nominated (by themselves, none the less), and they work for WMF
> BoT (they are a committee of the BoT), and answer to none other than WMF
> BoT. So yes, I'm pretty sure these principles do fully apply to them.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> Gnangarra  escreveu no dia terça, 26/10/2021 à(s)
> 00:45:
>
>> Michal
>>
>> The guiding principles you refer to state "*These are not principles
>> intended to cover the entire Wikimedia movement, just the Wikimedia
>> Foundation*"
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles.
>> Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
>> committee. As a liaison for the WMF to AFFCOM the person you refer to must
>> follow the decisions of the committee and is limited to how much they can
>> respond.   This is the third forum you have shopped in attacking someone
>> who is unable to respond, your complaint is that you dont like a decision
>> made by Affcom.
>>
>> Your action do clearly read as a personal public attack intended to
>> negatively affect her reputation, you state that it is by saying " *I
>> would much rather to communicate about these affairs privately. 
>> **Unfortunately,
>> I have recognized her in the MCDC too lately for private communication*"
>>  It is never too late for private discussion and in every event it is
>> always best to work directly with people to resolve an issue rather than
>> post long rambling emails to lists like this and other pub;ic communication
>> channels as the person cannot respond in every forum and will never have
>> the ability for everyone who has read your rant to get a clear outcome.  As
>> an employee future employers will also see these threads, again they wont
>> find resolutions or any apology.
>>
>> Act respectfully and take your issues to AFFCOM or to the WMF employees
>> line manager privately.
>>
>> Regards
>> Gnangarra
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 02:45, Michal Matúšov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Risker,
>>>
>>> first of all I would like to emphasize that I am not sure whether AffCom
>>> is violating WMF Guiding principles or not. I have my strong opinion based
>>> on months of interactions, but I consider that investigation is needed
>>> to be sure. And in order to receive diverse data for a meaningful
>>> investigation I have launched this thread and some data have started to
>>> come (thanks Lane!).
>>>
>>> Now to the point, what are the possible AffCom's violations of WMF
>>> Guiding principles? Here are some examples (sorry in advance that they are
>>> going to be bit longer that I would like..):
>>>
>>> Over the last months I have been in intense communication with AffCom
>>> over several things. While I have expected (and accepted) that some
>>> communication can be rather slow (because of the structure of AffCom), it
>>> showed up that some communication from AffCom is at best very misleading.
>>> E.g. AffCom reactively (on my question) informed WUG Esperanto and Free
>>> Knowledge (EliSo) that AffCom put on hold EliSo's recognition as a hematic
>>> Organisation. As a reason AffCom mentioned "several issues" and that AffCom
>>> is already dealing about them "with the group". It showed up that nor
>>> issues, nor dealing up with the group [EliSo] was true... I have asked
>>> AffCom several times when it put EliSo's recognition on hold but AffCom
>>> never clearly answered that. *That is taking 3 months now!* AffCom
>>> despite my clear question to inform ELiSo about when AffCom put ELiSo's
>>> recognition on hold never answered this question. That would be rather
>>> annoying, but the additional fact is that EliSo asked for ThemOrg
>>> recognition on late november 2020. So according to ThemOrg requirements
>>> page [1] , the projected time for approval is 4–6 months, meaning that
>>> ELiSo would be projected to be recognized in late March - May 2021

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Investigation of possible AffCom's violations - your input welcomed!

[Gnangarra]

Michal

The guiding principles you refer to state "*These are not principles
intended to cover the entire Wikimedia movement, just the Wikimedia
Foundation*"
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles.
Affcom cant be violating this as they are a volunteer community elected
committee. As a liaison for the WMF to AFFCOM the person you refer to must
follow the decisions of the committee and is limited to how much they can
respond.   This is the third forum you have shopped in attacking someone
who is unable to respond, your complaint is that you dont like a decision
made by Affcom.

Your action do clearly read as a personal public attack intended to
negatively affect her reputation, you state that it is by saying " *I would
much rather to communicate about these affairs privately. **Unfortunately,
I have recognized her in the MCDC too lately for private communication*"
 It is never too late for private discussion and in every event it is
always best to work directly with people to resolve an issue rather than
post long rambling emails to lists like this and other pub;ic communication
channels as the person cannot respond in every forum and will never have
the ability for everyone who has read your rant to get a clear outcome.  As
an employee future employers will also see these threads, again they wont
find resolutions or any apology.

Act respectfully and take your issues to AFFCOM or to the WMF employees
line manager privately.

Regards
Gnangarra

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 02:45, Michal Matúšov 
wrote:

> Dear Risker,
>
> first of all I would like to emphasize that I am not sure whether AffCom
> is violating WMF Guiding principles or not. I have my strong opinion based
> on months of interactions, but I consider that investigation is needed
> to be sure. And in order to receive diverse data for a meaningful
> investigation I have launched this thread and some data have started to
> come (thanks Lane!).
>
> Now to the point, what are the possible AffCom's violations of WMF Guiding
> principles? Here are some examples (sorry in advance that they are going to
> be bit longer that I would like..):
>
> Over the last months I have been in intense communication with AffCom over
> several things. While I have expected (and accepted) that some
> communication can be rather slow (because of the structure of AffCom), it
> showed up that some communication from AffCom is at best very misleading.
> E.g. AffCom reactively (on my question) informed WUG Esperanto and Free
> Knowledge (EliSo) that AffCom put on hold EliSo's recognition as a hematic
> Organisation. As a reason AffCom mentioned "several issues" and that AffCom
> is already dealing about them "with the group". It showed up that nor
> issues, nor dealing up with the group [EliSo] was true... I have asked
> AffCom several times when it put EliSo's recognition on hold but AffCom
> never clearly answered that. *That is taking 3 months now!* AffCom
> despite my clear question to inform ELiSo about when AffCom put ELiSo's
> recognition on hold never answered this question. That would be rather
> annoying, but the additional fact is that EliSo asked for ThemOrg
> recognition on late november 2020. So according to ThemOrg requirements
> page [1] , the projected time for approval is 4–6 months, meaning that
> ELiSo would be projected to be recognized in late March - May 2021. So
> AffCom reactively (!) informed ELiSo about putting on hold its ThemOrg
> application after 2 months of the longest projected time for approval... *In
> summary*: AffCom have communicated false information, non-proactively and
> in a secretive manner. In my personal opinion it is in conflict with the
> principle of transparency and accountability.
>
> I am during last 4,5 years involved in helping WUG WMSVK to stop violating
> its bylaws and correct its past and current intentional {and possibly
> non-intentional) violations of Bylaws, Board agreements and possibly
> national laws. AffCom is formally involved since early 2020 and in December
> 2021 AffCom took full responsibility for WUG WMSVK. During the time of most
> engagement, AffCom was (and still is) very secretive and hardly ever and
> only after several attempts to communication does provide a clear answer of
> meaningful clarification. Under AffCom's full responsibility, WMSVK did
> nearly nothing to stop violations and correct the past ones. So AffCom is
> fully responsible for these violations, what is in conflict with the WMF
> Guiding principle of Shared power, as it is Bylaw which define power
> division. Later AffCom pushed for a mediation between me and WMSVK. After
> about 2 months of delays, AffCom informed me that the mediation is
> canceled. After that, the WMSVK's chair informed me, that AffCom informed
> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Regarding a series of serious office actions / 有关于一系列的办事处行动

[Gnangarra]

Hello ytcontact07

It is just like evacuating a village before a typhoon hits, or a volcano
erupts. It's going to inconvenience a few people but it's better than doing
nothing.  Some people may not return to the village but the villagers were
saved and they'll be ready if it happens again even taking proactive steps
beforehand.

On Wed, 15 Sept 2021 at 16:19,  wrote:

> Hello Maggie,
>
> First of all, as others have pointed out, this English-Chinese translation
> is horrendous. I am pretty certain even Google translate wouldn't contain
> this much of misused characters. Please revise this translation.
>
> Second, you have made some very serious allegations in this statement but
> with little substantiating evidence of any sort. I do not know what kind of
> organizational and administrative power Wikimedia Foundation has over the
> Wikipedia community, regional communities, and others; but even if the
> power demonstrated in this statement is correctly vetted, there is still
> tremendous burden of proof to explain this action. Otherwise this statement
> would be simply another misguided political attempt in a community that it
> does not belong, as well as further damaging the communities of Wikimedians
> in a region that really should have received much more support in order to
> extend the reach of free knowledge.
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-- 
GN.
* 2021*
*Celebrating 20 years of Wikipedia*


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