[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Andreas Kolbe]

+1.

Thank you very much, FJ. This is good to see, especially in such an unhappy
time as the present one.

Deserves to be shared widely.

Andreas

On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 7:09 PM Farah Jack Mustaklem 
wrote:

> Dear Wikimedia community,
> Today marks our friend Osama's thirtieth birthday, which, instead of
> celebrating with his loved ones, he is spending in jail serving a 32 year
> sentence.
> Osama was an asset to the Wikimedia community and he is dearly missed.
> Today, several civil society organizations have come together to wish him
> a happy birthday and call for his and Ziyad's release.
>
>
> https://dco-tn.org/f/birthday-in-jail-saudi-wikipedian-osama-khalid-remains-unjustly
> Happy birthday Osama!
>
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Farah Jack Mustaklem]

Dear Wikimedia community,
Today marks our friend Osama's thirtieth birthday, which, instead of
celebrating with his loved ones, he is spending in jail serving a 32 year
sentence.
Osama was an asset to the Wikimedia community and he is dearly missed.
Today, several civil society organizations have come together to wish him a
happy birthday and call for his and Ziyad's release.

https://dco-tn.org/f/birthday-in-jail-saudi-wikipedian-osama-khalid-remains-unjustly
Happy birthday Osama!
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/KMGS72HYAIZXIIFQH3RKFX2SDL7RSSLM/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Andreas Kolbe]

Dear all,

To give an example of how human rights organisations deal with
Internet-related cases in Saudi Arabia, the Amnesty International website
has a page titled "*Saudi Arabia: Release activist jailed for 34yrs for
tweets: Salma al-Shehab*":

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde23/5961/2022/en/

This gives an overview of the facts of the case and calls for the
prisoner's immediate and unconditional release. It then presents a model
letter titled "*URGENT ACTION* Release activist jailed for 34 yrs for
tweets" and invites members of the public to write an appeal, based on his
model letter or in their own words, addressed to the Office of His Majesty
the King at the Royal Court in Riyadh.

Is it the Wikimedia Foundation Human Rights Team's contention that it would
be harmful to Osama's and Ziyad's interests to have similar pages for them
on the websites of Amnesty International and other human rights
organisations? And that it would be harmful to Osama and Ziyad to have
members of the community and the wider public write letters to the Saudi
Royal Court, calling for their release?

Andreas



On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 10:44 PM effe iets anders 
wrote:

> This does indeed seem to make some assumptions:
> * That WMF is not already in contact with relevant human rights
> organizations
> * That including these individuals in a writing campaign is indeed
> considered the best approach to help them at this point
> * That a public association of this type is considered a best practice
> regarding the safety of other Wikimedians who are at risk, both now and in
> the future
>
> I'm not sure if I see the benefit of tying a collaboration regarding the
> safety of individuals to a writing effort on Wikipedia. Shouldn't we be
> interested in improving those articles regardless? Wouldn't human rights
> organizations care about individuals such as these regardless? Tying them
> together could come across like we're horse trading - which would reflect
> poorly on both efforts on such a sensitive topic.
>
> I don't have the insight whether these assumptions would hold - but I
> appreciate your thinking along. What I hear throughout the discussion, is a
> group of community members that care, and seem to offer to help. I hope
> that the WMF human rights team takes that information into account as they
> evaluate the options. But I also realize that they do have a full plate,
> and responding to these discussions is probably not their first priority. I
> hope some of the voices here will participate in the to-be-announced office
> hours.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 10:12 PM Lauren Worden 
> wrote:
>
>> There are some good ideas in this thread, but nothing concrete,
>> actionable, and to which Foundation officials have been able and
>> willing to give a clear, simple yes or no answer. Here is a simple and
>> concrete proposal which could be started immediately:
>>
>> Foundation personnel should reach out to Amnesty International
>> leadership (i.e.,
>>
>> https://www.amnesty.org/en/about-us/secretary-general-and-senior-leadership-team/
>> )
>> asking them to include the jailed Arabic Wikipedia administrators in
>> their Write for Rights campaign
>> (https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/write-for-rights/) and in
>> return offering to fund a Wikipedian in Residence editor position at a
>> level sufficient to improve the articles on subjects of their
>> campaigns as the availability of reliable sources allow.
>>
>> This would not require public discussion of individual cases by
>> Foundation officials. Presumably the Foundation would be able to act
>> on such a plan without additional authorization from the Trustees.
>>
>> Are there any downsides?
>>
>> -LW
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 9:37 AM Christophe Henner
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Crap I?ve hit sent too early!
>> >
>> > I am not sure it exists, but in line with Lodewijk comment having a
>> guide on how can people help and/or a place where people can list
>> themselves to make it known they can be reached to help on those topics,
>> could be ways to leverage our communities in those instances.
>> >
>> > Christophe
>> >
>> > On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:34?PM, Christophe Henner <
>> christophe.hen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?Bassel was at a time when there was little to none activity on those
>> topics.
>> >
>> > Since then the approach got professionalized.
>> >
>> > I understand the lack of information is frustrated, but most of the
>> time any action taken has to be confidential.
>> >
>> > Having been on the other side of curtain a bit, it?s one of the
>> toughest topic there is.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:25?PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>> >
>> > ?
>> > Thanks, Lane.
>> >
>> > The WMF published numerous Diff posts on Bassel. I believe the first
>> one was in October 2015, less than a week after Bassel was killed:
>> >
>> > #FREEBASSEL: Free culture advocate who built 3D renderings of Palmyra
>> missing in Syria
>> > 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[effe iets anders]

This does indeed seem to make some assumptions:
* That WMF is not already in contact with relevant human rights
organizations
* That including these individuals in a writing campaign is indeed
considered the best approach to help them at this point
* That a public association of this type is considered a best practice
regarding the safety of other Wikimedians who are at risk, both now and in
the future

I'm not sure if I see the benefit of tying a collaboration regarding the
safety of individuals to a writing effort on Wikipedia. Shouldn't we be
interested in improving those articles regardless? Wouldn't human rights
organizations care about individuals such as these regardless? Tying them
together could come across like we're horse trading - which would reflect
poorly on both efforts on such a sensitive topic.

I don't have the insight whether these assumptions would hold - but I
appreciate your thinking along. What I hear throughout the discussion, is a
group of community members that care, and seem to offer to help. I hope
that the WMF human rights team takes that information into account as they
evaluate the options. But I also realize that they do have a full plate,
and responding to these discussions is probably not their first priority. I
hope some of the voices here will participate in the to-be-announced office
hours.

Lodewijk

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 10:12 PM Lauren Worden 
wrote:

> There are some good ideas in this thread, but nothing concrete,
> actionable, and to which Foundation officials have been able and
> willing to give a clear, simple yes or no answer. Here is a simple and
> concrete proposal which could be started immediately:
>
> Foundation personnel should reach out to Amnesty International
> leadership (i.e.,
>
> https://www.amnesty.org/en/about-us/secretary-general-and-senior-leadership-team/
> )
> asking them to include the jailed Arabic Wikipedia administrators in
> their Write for Rights campaign
> (https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/write-for-rights/) and in
> return offering to fund a Wikipedian in Residence editor position at a
> level sufficient to improve the articles on subjects of their
> campaigns as the availability of reliable sources allow.
>
> This would not require public discussion of individual cases by
> Foundation officials. Presumably the Foundation would be able to act
> on such a plan without additional authorization from the Trustees.
>
> Are there any downsides?
>
> -LW
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 9:37 AM Christophe Henner
>  wrote:
> >
> > Crap I?ve hit sent too early!
> >
> > I am not sure it exists, but in line with Lodewijk comment having a
> guide on how can people help and/or a place where people can list
> themselves to make it known they can be reached to help on those topics,
> could be ways to leverage our communities in those instances.
> >
> > Christophe
> >
> > On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:34?PM, Christophe Henner <
> christophe.hen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?Bassel was at a time when there was little to none activity on those
> topics.
> >
> > Since then the approach got professionalized.
> >
> > I understand the lack of information is frustrated, but most of the time
> any action taken has to be confidential.
> >
> > Having been on the other side of curtain a bit, it?s one of the toughest
> topic there is.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:25?PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > Thanks, Lane.
> >
> > The WMF published numerous Diff posts on Bassel. I believe the first one
> was in October 2015, less than a week after Bassel was killed:
> >
> > #FREEBASSEL: Free culture advocate who built 3D renderings of Palmyra
> missing in Syria
> > https://diff.wikimedia.org/2015/10/08/bassel-missing-syria/
> >
> > As for media coverage, in January 2016 Jimmy Wales wrote an article
> about Bassel for CNN:
> >
> > Wikipedia founder: Information can beat oppression
> >
> https://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/20/opinions/wales-wikipedia-information-beats-oppression/index.html
> >
> > In March 2016, Jimmy Wales and Orit Kopel published an article on Bassel
> in The Guardian, again suggesting a hashtag:
> >
> > "The world needs to ask: #whereisBassel?"
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2016/mar/16/jimmy-wales-the-world-needs-to-ask-whereisbassel
> >
> > The Foundation's silence on Osama and Ziyad is in marked contrast to
> that.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 3:04?PM Lane Rasberry 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> "Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized
> to contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?"
> >>
> >> We organized Wikipedia editing events in 2011-12 for Aaron Swartz.
> Events were not so documented back then, but there were wiki meetups in the
> United States before and after his death.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz
> >>
> >> In 2016-17 we did events for Bassell, not knowing that he had already
> passed. Here is some of what I can find but the events 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Lauren Worden]

There are some good ideas in this thread, but nothing concrete,
actionable, and to which Foundation officials have been able and
willing to give a clear, simple yes or no answer. Here is a simple and
concrete proposal which could be started immediately:

Foundation personnel should reach out to Amnesty International
leadership (i.e.,
https://www.amnesty.org/en/about-us/secretary-general-and-senior-leadership-team/)
asking them to include the jailed Arabic Wikipedia administrators in
their Write for Rights campaign
(https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/write-for-rights/) and in
return offering to fund a Wikipedian in Residence editor position at a
level sufficient to improve the articles on subjects of their
campaigns as the availability of reliable sources allow.

This would not require public discussion of individual cases by
Foundation officials. Presumably the Foundation would be able to act
on such a plan without additional authorization from the Trustees.

Are there any downsides?

-LW

On Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 9:37 AM Christophe Henner
 wrote:
>
> Crap I?ve hit sent too early!
>
> I am not sure it exists, but in line with Lodewijk comment having a guide on 
> how can people help and/or a place where people can list themselves to make 
> it known they can be reached to help on those topics, could be ways to 
> leverage our communities in those instances.
>
> Christophe
>
> On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:34?PM, Christophe Henner  
> wrote:
>
> ?Bassel was at a time when there was little to none activity on those topics.
>
> Since then the approach got professionalized.
>
> I understand the lack of information is frustrated, but most of the time any 
> action taken has to be confidential.
>
> Having been on the other side of curtain a bit, it?s one of the toughest 
> topic there is.
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:25?PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
> ?
> Thanks, Lane.
>
> The WMF published numerous Diff posts on Bassel. I believe the first one was 
> in October 2015, less than a week after Bassel was killed:
>
> #FREEBASSEL: Free culture advocate who built 3D renderings of Palmyra missing 
> in Syria
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2015/10/08/bassel-missing-syria/
>
> As for media coverage, in January 2016 Jimmy Wales wrote an article about 
> Bassel for CNN:
>
> Wikipedia founder: Information can beat oppression
> https://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/20/opinions/wales-wikipedia-information-beats-oppression/index.html
>
> In March 2016, Jimmy Wales and Orit Kopel published an article on Bassel in 
> The Guardian, again suggesting a hashtag:
>
> "The world needs to ask: #whereisBassel?"
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2016/mar/16/jimmy-wales-the-world-needs-to-ask-whereisbassel
>
> The Foundation's silence on Osama and Ziyad is in marked contrast to that.
>
> Andreas
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 3:04?PM Lane Rasberry  wrote:
>>
>> "Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to 
>> contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?"
>>
>> We organized Wikipedia editing events in 2011-12 for Aaron Swartz. Events 
>> were not so documented back then, but there were wiki meetups in the United 
>> States before and after his death.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz
>>
>> In 2016-17 we did events for Bassell, not knowing that he had already 
>> passed. Here is some of what I can find but the events were organized in 
>> anticipation of his release.
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bassel_Khartabil
>> https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editathon_for_Bassel
>> https://www.wired.com/story/free-bassel-essay/
>>
>> For both of these, there was a lot of online and in-person Wikimedia 
>> activism in response to the legal accusations against them. I do not know if 
>> we ever had storytelling or journalism documenting that though.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 4:46?PM Samuel Klein  wrote:
>>>
>>> Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to 
>>> contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?
>>>
>>> It sounds like a community group, working to support others, might be an 
>>> outlet for interest in advocating for those in jail, and maintaining up to 
>>> date information on their condition and needs, ways to get letters to them, 
>>>  They could get advice from the WMF team, and work with and through 
>>> Amnesty (et al). The reasons that a specific org might not want to advocate 
>>> openly for a victim may not apply to individuals, who have their own 
>>> leverage and can advocate on behalf of humanity.
>>>
>>> SJ
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, 2:58 PM Maggie Dennis  wrote:

 Hello, all.


 I?m Maggie Dennis. I?m the VP who oversees our human rights team in its 
 work. Reiterating what the team previously said about not being able to 
 discuss particular situations, I can disclose a little more general points 
 about our approach as you pose, LW, and, 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Christophe Henner]

Crap I?ve hit sent too early!I am not sure it exists, but in line with Lodewijk comment having a guide on how can people help and/or a place where people can list themselves to make it known they can be reached to help on those topics, could be ways to leverage our communities in those instances.Christophe On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:34?PM, Christophe Henner  wrote:?Bassel was at a time when there was little to none activity on those topics.Since then the approach got professionalized.I understand the lack of information is frustrated, but 
 most of the time any action taken has to be confidential.Having been on the other side of curtain a bit, it?s one of the toughest topic there is. On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:25?PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:?Thanks, Lane. The WMF published numerous Diff posts on Bassel. I believe the first one was in October 2015, less than a week after Bassel was killed:#FREEBASSEL: Free culture advocate who built 3D renderings of Palmyra missing in Syriahttps://diff.wikimedia.org/2015/10/08/bassel-missing-syria/As for media coverage, in January 2016 Jimmy Wales wrote an article about Bassel for CNN:
 Wikipedia founder: Information can beat oppressionhttps://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/20/opinions/wales-wikipedia-information-beats-oppression/index.htmlIn March 2016, Jimmy Wales and Orit Kopel published an article on Bassel in The Guardian, again suggesting a hashtag:"The world needs to ask: #whereisBassel?"https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2016/mar/16/jimmy-wales-the-world-needs-to-ask-whereisbasselThe Foundation's silence on Osama and Ziyad is in marked contrast to that.AndreasOn Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 3:04?PM Lane Rasberry  wrote:"Have there been any recent cases where community voices 
were mobilized to contribute to national or international campaigns for 
someone's release?"We organized Wikipedia editing events in 2011-12 for Aaron Swartz. Events were not so documented back then, but there were wiki meetups in the United States before and after his death.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_SwartzIn 2016-17 we did events for Bassell, not knowing that he had already passed. Here is some of what I can find but the events were organized in anticipation of his release.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bassel_Khartabilhttps://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editathon_for_Basselhttps://www.wired.com/story/free-bassel-essay/For both of these, there was a lot of online and in-person Wikimedia activism in response to the legal accusations against them. I do not know if we ever had storytelling or journalism documenting that though.

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 4:46?PM Samuel Klein  wrote:Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?It sounds like a community group, working to support others, might be an outlet for interest in advocating for those in jail, and maintaining up to date information on their condition and needs, ways to get letters to them,  They could get advice from the WMF team, and work with and through Amnesty (et al). The reasons that a specific org might not want to advocate openly for a victim may not apply to indi
 viduals, who have their own leverage and can advocate on behalf of humanity.SJOn Thu, Oct 5, 2023, 2:58 PM Maggie Dennis  wrote:Hello, all.I?m Maggie Dennis. I?m the VP who oversees our human rights team in its work. Reiterating what the team previously said about not being able to discuss particular situations, I can disclose a little more general points about our approach as you pose, LW, and, I hope, address some of your concerns, Lodewijk.It?s devastating when community members face targeting for their dedication to supporting free knowledge. This matters a lot to me, to my team, and to all the Foundation. I know it matters to you as well.The Wikimedia Foundation does resource this important work. We have partners in this field with whom we collaborate closely. Our human rights team possesses extensive experience in addressing such issues and also maintains strong connections with NGOs specializing in these areas. We regularly engage with these organizations on both general matters and specific cases.Every situation in which a community member is targeted is unique, and we recognize the need for specialized responses and support. Volunteer well-being is our priority, and we are comm
 itted to providing the right assistance for each case. While we believe in the importance of public discourse and transparency, safety always takes precedence. In some instances, the Foundation has found it appropriate to speak publicly to address these challenges and have done so. In others, we may be advised to handle matters differently. In terms of some Wikimedians who might have concerns whether our strategy is the right one, I fully respect that there must be. Because each case is different and frequently these situations 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Christophe Henner]

Bassel was at a time when there was little to none activity on those topics.Since then the approach got professionalized.I understand the lack of information is frustrated, but most of the time any action taken has to be confidential.Having been on the other side of curtain a bit, it?s one of the toughest topic there is. On Oct 8, 2023, at 6:25?PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:?Thanks, Lane. The WMF published numerous Diff posts on Bassel. I believe the first one was in October 2015, less than a week after Bassel was killed:#FREEBASSEL: Free culture advocate who built 3D r
 enderings of Palmyra missing in Syriahttps://diff.wikimedia.org/2015/10/08/bassel-missing-syria/As for media coverage, in January 2016 Jimmy Wales wrote an article about Bassel for CNN:Wikipedia founder: Information can beat oppressionhttps://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/20/opinions/wales-wikipedia-information-beats-oppression/index.htmlIn March 2016, Jimmy Wales and Orit Kopel published an article on Bassel in The Guardian, again suggesting a hashtag:"The world needs to ask: #whereisBassel?"https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/20
 16/mar/16/jimmy-wales-the-world-needs-to-ask-whereisbasselThe Foundation's silence on Osama and Ziyad is in marked contrast to that.AndreasOn Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 3:04?PM Lane Rasberry  wrote:"Have there been any recent cases where community voices 
were mobilized to contribute to national or international campaigns for 
someone's release?"We organized Wikipedia editing events in 2011-12 for Aaron Swartz. Events were not so documented back then, but there were wiki meetups in the United States before and after his death.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_SwartzIn 2016-17 we did events for Bassell, not knowing that he had already passed. Here is some of what I can find but the events were organized in anticipation of his release.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bassel_Khartabilhttps://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editathon_for_Basselhttps://www.wired.com/story/free-bassel-essay/For both of these, there was a lot of online and in-person Wikimedia activism in response to the legal accusations against them. I do not know if we ever had storytelling or journalism documenting that though.

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 4:46?PM Samuel Klein  wrote:Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?It sounds like a community group, working to support others, might be an outlet for interest in advocating for those in jail, and maintaining up to date information on their condition and needs, ways to get letters to them,  They could get advice from the WMF team, and work with and through Amnesty (et al). The reasons that a specific org might not want to advocate openly for a victim may not apply to indi
 viduals, who have their own leverage and can advocate on behalf of humanity.SJOn Thu, Oct 5, 2023, 2:58 PM Maggie Dennis  wrote:Hello, all.I?m Maggie Dennis. I?m the VP who oversees our human rights team in its work. Reiterating what the team previously said about not being able to discuss particular situations, I can disclose a little more general points about our approach as you pose, LW, and, I hope, address some of your concerns, Lodewijk.It?s devastating when community members face targeting for their dedication to supporting free knowledge. This matters a lot to me, to my team, and to all the Foundation. I know it matters to you as well.The Wikimedia Foundation does resource this important work. We have partners in this field with whom we collaborate closely. Our human rights team possesses extensive experience in addressing such issues and also maintains strong connections with NGOs specializing in these areas. We regularly engage with these organizations on both general matters and specific cases.Every situation in which a community member is targeted is unique, and we recognize the need for specialized responses and support. Volunteer well-being is our priority, and we are comm
 itted to providing the right assistance for each case. While we believe in the importance of public discourse and transparency, safety always takes precedence. In some instances, the Foundation has found it appropriate to speak publicly to address these challenges and have done so. In others, we may be advised to handle matters differently. In terms of some Wikimedians who might have concerns whether our strategy is the right one, I fully respect that there must be. Because each case is different and frequently these situations are highly complex, we know that even different expert organizations might rank the risk and the right response of a specific situation differently. We have sometimes sought multiple opinions on a case. At the end o
 f the day, we collaborate closely with relevant groups on our response to ensure the safety and well-being of individuals affected and the 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Andreas Kolbe]

Thanks, Lane.

The WMF published numerous Diff posts on Bassel. I believe the first one
was in October 2015, less than a week after Bassel was killed:

#FREEBASSEL: Free culture advocate who built 3D renderings of Palmyra
missing in Syria
https://diff.wikimedia.org/2015/10/08/bassel-missing-syria/

As for media coverage, in January 2016 Jimmy Wales wrote an article about
Bassel for CNN:

Wikipedia founder: Information can beat oppression
https://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/20/opinions/wales-wikipedia-information-beats-oppression/index.html

In March 2016, Jimmy Wales and Orit Kopel published an article on Bassel in
The Guardian, again suggesting a hashtag:

"The world needs to ask: #whereisBassel?"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2016/mar/16/jimmy-wales-the-world-needs-to-ask-whereisbassel

The Foundation's silence

on Osama and Ziyad is in marked contrast to that.

Andreas

On Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 3:04 PM Lane Rasberry  wrote:

> "Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to
> contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?"
>
> We organized Wikipedia editing events in 2011-12 for Aaron Swartz. Events
> were not so documented back then, but there were wiki meetups in the United
> States before and after his death.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz
>
> In 2016-17 we did events for Bassell, not knowing that he had already
> passed. Here is some of what I can find but the events were organized in
> anticipation of his release.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bassel_Khartabil
> https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editathon_for_Bassel
> https://www.wired.com/story/free-bassel-essay/
>
> For both of these, there was a lot of online and in-person Wikimedia
> activism in response to the legal accusations against them. I do not know
> if we ever had storytelling or journalism documenting that though.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 4:46 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:
>
>> Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to
>> contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?
>>
>> It sounds like a community group, working to support others, might be an
>> outlet for interest in advocating for those in jail, and maintaining up to
>> date information on their condition and needs, ways to get letters to them,
>>  They could get advice from the WMF team, and work with and through
>> Amnesty (et al). The reasons that a specific org might not want to advocate
>> openly for a victim may not apply to individuals, who have their own
>> leverage and can advocate on behalf of humanity.
>>
>> SJ
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, 2:58 PM Maggie Dennis  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, all.
>>>
>>> I’m Maggie Dennis. I’m the VP who oversees our human rights team in its
>>> work. Reiterating what the team previously said about not being able to
>>> discuss particular situations, I can disclose a little more general points
>>> about our approach as you pose, LW, and, I hope, address some of your
>>> concerns, Lodewijk.
>>>
>>> It’s devastating when community members face targeting for their
>>> dedication to supporting free knowledge. This matters a lot to me, to my
>>> team, and to all the Foundation. I know it matters to you as well.
>>>
>>> The Wikimedia Foundation does resource this important work. We have
>>> partners in this field with whom we collaborate closely. Our human rights
>>> team possesses extensive experience in addressing such issues and also
>>> maintains strong connections with NGOs specializing in these areas. We
>>> regularly engage with these organizations on both general matters and
>>> specific cases.
>>>
>>> Every situation in which a community member is targeted is unique, and
>>> we recognize the need for specialized responses and support. Volunteer
>>> well-being is our priority, and we are committed to providing the right
>>> assistance for each case. While we believe in the importance of public
>>> discourse and transparency, safety always takes precedence. In some
>>> instances, the Foundation has found it appropriate to speak publicly to
>>> address these challenges and have done so. In others, we may be advised to
>>> handle matters differently.
>>>
>>> In terms of some Wikimedians who might have concerns whether our
>>> strategy is the right one, I fully respect that there must be. Because each
>>> case is different and frequently these situations are highly complex, we
>>> know that even different expert organizations might rank the risk and the
>>> right response of a specific situation differently. We have sometimes
>>> sought multiple opinions on a case. At the end of the day, we collaborate
>>> closely with relevant groups on our response to ensure the safety and
>>> well-being of individuals affected and the broader community members who
>>> could be impacted. We do the best we can 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Lane Rasberry]

"Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to
contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?"

We organized Wikipedia editing events in 2011-12 for Aaron Swartz. Events
were not so documented back then, but there were wiki meetups in the United
States before and after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

In 2016-17 we did events for Bassell, not knowing that he had already
passed. Here is some of what I can find but the events were organized in
anticipation of his release.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bassel_Khartabil
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editathon_for_Bassel
https://www.wired.com/story/free-bassel-essay/

For both of these, there was a lot of online and in-person Wikimedia
activism in response to the legal accusations against them. I do not know
if we ever had storytelling or journalism documenting that though.



On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 4:46 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to
> contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?
>
> It sounds like a community group, working to support others, might be an
> outlet for interest in advocating for those in jail, and maintaining up to
> date information on their condition and needs, ways to get letters to them,
>  They could get advice from the WMF team, and work with and through
> Amnesty (et al). The reasons that a specific org might not want to advocate
> openly for a victim may not apply to individuals, who have their own
> leverage and can advocate on behalf of humanity.
>
> SJ
>
>
> 
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, 2:58 PM Maggie Dennis  wrote:
>
>> Hello, all.
>>
>> I’m Maggie Dennis. I’m the VP who oversees our human rights team in its
>> work. Reiterating what the team previously said about not being able to
>> discuss particular situations, I can disclose a little more general points
>> about our approach as you pose, LW, and, I hope, address some of your
>> concerns, Lodewijk.
>>
>> It’s devastating when community members face targeting for their
>> dedication to supporting free knowledge. This matters a lot to me, to my
>> team, and to all the Foundation. I know it matters to you as well.
>>
>> The Wikimedia Foundation does resource this important work. We have
>> partners in this field with whom we collaborate closely. Our human rights
>> team possesses extensive experience in addressing such issues and also
>> maintains strong connections with NGOs specializing in these areas. We
>> regularly engage with these organizations on both general matters and
>> specific cases.
>>
>> Every situation in which a community member is targeted is unique, and we
>> recognize the need for specialized responses and support. Volunteer
>> well-being is our priority, and we are committed to providing the right
>> assistance for each case. While we believe in the importance of public
>> discourse and transparency, safety always takes precedence. In some
>> instances, the Foundation has found it appropriate to speak publicly to
>> address these challenges and have done so. In others, we may be advised to
>> handle matters differently.
>>
>> In terms of some Wikimedians who might have concerns whether our strategy
>> is the right one, I fully respect that there must be. Because each case is
>> different and frequently these situations are highly complex, we know that
>> even different expert organizations might rank the risk and the right
>> response of a specific situation differently. We have sometimes sought
>> multiple opinions on a case. At the end of the day, we collaborate closely
>> with relevant groups on our response to ensure the safety and well-being of
>> individuals affected and the broader community members who could be
>> impacted. We do the best we can to uphold the principles of free knowledge
>> while prioritizing safety for everyone.
>>
>> While I can’t discuss specific cases, I am always happy to talk about
>> general matters of policy and approach in my quarterly community
>> conversations. We will also answer questions to the extent that we believe
>> we safely can that are posed about the team’s work to
>> talktohumanrig...@wikimedia.org. Depending on the case,the human rights
>> team may provide ways to help or avenues to connect with  organizations who
>> are supporting. They may also be able to advise when silence is regarded as
>> the best response. (There are some risks to being too open about who we
>> work with and how we work that we need to consider every time.)
>>
>> People can read more generally about the human rights team
>>  here.
>>
>> While this is not my area of focus in my role at the Foundation, I also
>> want to generally call out that the Foundation also conducts human rights
>> advocacy routinely in regards to legislation. Our Global Advocacy
>>  

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Samuel Klein]

Have there been any recent cases where community voices were mobilized to
contribute to national or international campaigns for someone's release?

It sounds like a community group, working to support others, might be an
outlet for interest in advocating for those in jail, and maintaining up to
date information on their condition and needs, ways to get letters to them,
 They could get advice from the WMF team, and work with and through
Amnesty (et al). The reasons that a specific org might not want to advocate
openly for a victim may not apply to individuals, who have their own
leverage and can advocate on behalf of humanity.

SJ




On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, 2:58 PM Maggie Dennis  wrote:

> Hello, all.
>
> I’m Maggie Dennis. I’m the VP who oversees our human rights team in its
> work. Reiterating what the team previously said about not being able to
> discuss particular situations, I can disclose a little more general points
> about our approach as you pose, LW, and, I hope, address some of your
> concerns, Lodewijk.
>
> It’s devastating when community members face targeting for their
> dedication to supporting free knowledge. This matters a lot to me, to my
> team, and to all the Foundation. I know it matters to you as well.
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation does resource this important work. We have
> partners in this field with whom we collaborate closely. Our human rights
> team possesses extensive experience in addressing such issues and also
> maintains strong connections with NGOs specializing in these areas. We
> regularly engage with these organizations on both general matters and
> specific cases.
>
> Every situation in which a community member is targeted is unique, and we
> recognize the need for specialized responses and support. Volunteer
> well-being is our priority, and we are committed to providing the right
> assistance for each case. While we believe in the importance of public
> discourse and transparency, safety always takes precedence. In some
> instances, the Foundation has found it appropriate to speak publicly to
> address these challenges and have done so. In others, we may be advised to
> handle matters differently.
>
> In terms of some Wikimedians who might have concerns whether our strategy
> is the right one, I fully respect that there must be. Because each case is
> different and frequently these situations are highly complex, we know that
> even different expert organizations might rank the risk and the right
> response of a specific situation differently. We have sometimes sought
> multiple opinions on a case. At the end of the day, we collaborate closely
> with relevant groups on our response to ensure the safety and well-being of
> individuals affected and the broader community members who could be
> impacted. We do the best we can to uphold the principles of free knowledge
> while prioritizing safety for everyone.
>
> While I can’t discuss specific cases, I am always happy to talk about
> general matters of policy and approach in my quarterly community
> conversations. We will also answer questions to the extent that we believe
> we safely can that are posed about the team’s work to
> talktohumanrig...@wikimedia.org. Depending on the case,the human rights
> team may provide ways to help or avenues to connect with  organizations who
> are supporting. They may also be able to advise when silence is regarded as
> the best response. (There are some risks to being too open about who we
> work with and how we work that we need to consider every time.)
>
> People can read more generally about the human rights team
>  here.
>
> While this is not my area of focus in my role at the Foundation, I also
> want to generally call out that the Foundation also conducts human rights
> advocacy routinely in regards to legislation. Our Global Advocacy
>  team not only meets
> with legislators around the world to fight for the rights that keep free
> knowledge free, but also considers and guides our work by providing
> proactive human rights assessments and policy development, such as the Human
> Rights Policy
> .
>
> Best regards,
>
> Maggie
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:14 AM Lauren Worden 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear WMF Human Rights Team:
>>
>> I would like some clarification on your statement below. In
>> particular, does your stated approach allow you to follow the best
>> practices described at
>> https://freedomhouse.org/2023/summit-for-democracy-political-prisoners
>> to, e.g., "meet regularly with family members of political prisoners,
>> advocacy groups, and media outlets and journalists, in public and in
>> private, in their efforts to secure an individual’s release"?
>>
>> The literature review at
>> https://opendocs.ids.ac.uk/opendocs/handle/20.500.12413/17277 states:
>> "The theoretical and empirical literature attributes 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Maggie Dennis]

Hello, all.

I’m Maggie Dennis. I’m the VP who oversees our human rights team in its
work. Reiterating what the team previously said about not being able to
discuss particular situations, I can disclose a little more general points
about our approach as you pose, LW, and, I hope, address some of your
concerns, Lodewijk.

It’s devastating when community members face targeting for their dedication
to supporting free knowledge. This matters a lot to me, to my team, and to
all the Foundation. I know it matters to you as well.

The Wikimedia Foundation does resource this important work. We have
partners in this field with whom we collaborate closely. Our human rights
team possesses extensive experience in addressing such issues and also
maintains strong connections with NGOs specializing in these areas. We
regularly engage with these organizations on both general matters and
specific cases.

Every situation in which a community member is targeted is unique, and we
recognize the need for specialized responses and support. Volunteer
well-being is our priority, and we are committed to providing the right
assistance for each case. While we believe in the importance of public
discourse and transparency, safety always takes precedence. In some
instances, the Foundation has found it appropriate to speak publicly to
address these challenges and have done so. In others, we may be advised to
handle matters differently.

In terms of some Wikimedians who might have concerns whether our strategy
is the right one, I fully respect that there must be. Because each case is
different and frequently these situations are highly complex, we know that
even different expert organizations might rank the risk and the right
response of a specific situation differently. We have sometimes sought
multiple opinions on a case. At the end of the day, we collaborate closely
with relevant groups on our response to ensure the safety and well-being of
individuals affected and the broader community members who could be
impacted. We do the best we can to uphold the principles of free knowledge
while prioritizing safety for everyone.

While I can’t discuss specific cases, I am always happy to talk about
general matters of policy and approach in my quarterly community
conversations. We will also answer questions to the extent that we believe
we safely can that are posed about the team’s work to
talktohumanrig...@wikimedia.org. Depending on the case,the human rights
team may provide ways to help or avenues to connect with  organizations who
are supporting. They may also be able to advise when silence is regarded as
the best response. (There are some risks to being too open about who we
work with and how we work that we need to consider every time.)

People can read more generally about the human rights team
 here.

While this is not my area of focus in my role at the Foundation, I also
want to generally call out that the Foundation also conducts human rights
advocacy routinely in regards to legislation. Our Global Advocacy
 team not only meets with
legislators around the world to fight for the rights that keep free
knowledge free, but also considers and guides our work by providing
proactive human rights assessments and policy development, such as the Human
Rights Policy
.

Best regards,

Maggie


On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:14 AM Lauren Worden 
wrote:

> Dear WMF Human Rights Team:
>
> I would like some clarification on your statement below. In
> particular, does your stated approach allow you to follow the best
> practices described at
> https://freedomhouse.org/2023/summit-for-democracy-political-prisoners
> to, e.g., "meet regularly with family members of political prisoners,
> advocacy groups, and media outlets and journalists, in public and in
> private, in their efforts to secure an individual’s release"?
>
> The literature review at
> https://opendocs.ids.ac.uk/opendocs/handle/20.500.12413/17277 states:
> "The theoretical and empirical literature attributes several potential
> roles to civil society in [security sector and justice reform]. These
> include making security and justice institutions accountable,
> mobilising a range of social groups for reform, publicising abuses and
> advocating for reform, offering technical expertise, and improving
> security-citizen relations."
>
> If the Foundation staff has prohibited itself from engaging with the
> public on freeing jailed wikipedians, orchestrating letter writing
> campaigns, or coordinating with other NGOs and government agencies,
> such as those Andreas has described as having no record of the
> imprisoned Arabic Wikipedia administrators, then I would hope that the
> CEO or Trustees would step in immediately to rectify any internal
> policies such that best practices can be upheld.
>
> -LW
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 3:51 PM 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Lauren Worden]

Dear WMF Human Rights Team:

I would like some clarification on your statement below. In
particular, does your stated approach allow you to follow the best
practices described at
https://freedomhouse.org/2023/summit-for-democracy-political-prisoners
to, e.g., "meet regularly with family members of political prisoners,
advocacy groups, and media outlets and journalists, in public and in
private, in their efforts to secure an individual’s release"?

The literature review at
https://opendocs.ids.ac.uk/opendocs/handle/20.500.12413/17277 states:
"The theoretical and empirical literature attributes several potential
roles to civil society in [security sector and justice reform]. These
include making security and justice institutions accountable,
mobilising a range of social groups for reform, publicising abuses and
advocating for reform, offering technical expertise, and improving
security-citizen relations."

If the Foundation staff has prohibited itself from engaging with the
public on freeing jailed wikipedians, orchestrating letter writing
campaigns, or coordinating with other NGOs and government agencies,
such as those Andreas has described as having no record of the
imprisoned Arabic Wikipedia administrators, then I would hope that the
CEO or Trustees would step in immediately to rectify any internal
policies such that best practices can be upheld.

-LW


On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 3:51 PM WMF Human Rights
 wrote:
>
> In the interest of safeguarding confidential information and ensuring the 
> safety of our community members, the Foundation will not publicly disclose 
> details regarding human rights cases. The Human Rights Team recently updated 
> its meta page to clarify this approach. Our primary concern is to uphold the 
> safety and privacy of everyone involved. At the same time, our inability to 
> discuss these matters should not be read as inaction. We care deeply about 
> volunteer safety and our role, more generally, involves different levels of 
> internal support, wider advocacy and partnerships with others depending on 
> the circumstances of an event.
>
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 6:06 AM Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>>
>> Let's put it a different way then:
>>
>> Is anyone at the WMF doing anything in support of the two jailed Saudi 
>> Wikimedians, be it liaising with international or regional human rights 
>> organisations, the US State Department, briefing journalists so the wider 
>> public is aware of the situation, or anything else to make sure Osama and 
>> Ziyad aren't forgotten about as they start (by my calculation) their fourth 
>> year in jail?
>>
>> I am asking because the press reports published at the start of this year do 
>> not seem to have led to any significant coverage of the two Wikimedians' 
>> plight on the websites of major human rights organisations. (If I have 
>> missed any, please let me know.)
>>
>> For example, I found nothing at all on the website of Reporters without 
>> Borders. Similarly, the most recent Amnesty International report on the 
>> "crackdown on online expression" in Saudi Arabia includes several mentions 
>> of Twitter users but none of Wikipedians:
>>
>> https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/02/saudi-arabia-alarming-crackdown-on-online-expression/
>>
>> Amnesty's report specifically mentions that a Twitter user was sentenced for 
>> supporting women's rights activist Loujain al-Hathloul but fails to mention 
>> that one of the jailed Wikimedians uploaded Loujain al-Hathloul's Commons 
>> picture, which is used in her Wikipedia articles.
>>
>> I didn't find anything about Osama and Ziyad or, more generally, Wikimedians 
>> in Saudi Arabia on the website of the EFF.
>>
>> There is a mention of Osama and Ziyad and the fact that they were 
>> Wikipedians on the PEN website:
>>
>> https://pen.org/report/freedom-to-write-index-2022/
>>
>> The U.S. State Department's 2022 country report on Saudi Arabia, published 
>> in March 2023, includes a mention of Osama's 32-year prison sentence, but 
>> doesn't make clear that he was jailed for being a Wikipedian, and Ziyad is 
>> not mentioned:
>>
>> https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/saudi-arabia/
>>
>> Will this be remedied in the U.S. State Department's 2023 country report? I 
>> think each country report covers the period up to October of the preceding 
>> year, so this month will be the last chance to make sure the 2023 report 
>> published next spring will include information on Osama and Ziyad's prison 
>> sentences and their Wikipedia activity.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:09 PM The Cunctator  wrote:
>>>
>>> Frankly, that's implausible.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 3:37 PM DerHexer via Wikimedia-l 
>>>  wrote:

 I do think that posting any kind of response to these questions on a 
 public mailing list would do more harm than good. Thank you.

 Best,
 DerHexer
 Wikimedia Steward

 Am Montag, 25. September 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[effe iets anders]

Thanks for this response - as little content as it may have. I can totally
understand it.

As I was reading the questions in this thread, I felt uneasy with the
questions, because I can imagine that there are people working on these
issues in our movement (whether in the WMF or not) who may have a strategy
in mind where silence is more helpful. Whether Andreas is asking these
questions because he wants to publish a story in the Signpost, or because
he wants to help personally, I do understand that there is a general desire
for more information and can't blame them for asking (as long as they in
turn understand that there may not be a meaningful answer when none can be
provided without harming the cause).

That being said, as a community we often take the approach of trying to
help. So let me ask the elephant-in-the-room question: how can we help
these individual cases as a community? I think what some of the community
members are trying to gauge is whether there is silence because it's
considered the safer thing to do, or that it is because there are not
enough resources available.

I could guess the answers of course, but perhaps it would be helpful to
know:
- If people/affiliates have a specific concern whether someone is on your
radar, where to send the message (I think this is already answered on your
linked meta page: send a private email)
- If people/affiliates want to help, who should they contact to know which
actions are actually helpful (i.e. be quiet or make noise)? Would it be
correct to assume that the community office hours would be the best venue?
- I'm assuming you may have an overview page somewhere with individual
cases you're actively 'making noise' about (e.g. a blog category/label).
Perhaps you could link that overview from the meta page?
- If the WMF sees no scenario where community involvement on this topic
would be helpful, is there another organization you would recommend to look
at instead?

Finally, there may be some Wikimedians who have concerns whether your
strategy is the right one. I'm not sure if you could speak to this, but for
them it might be interesting to know whether the WMF has a standard policy
to never speak about these individual cases, or will do so selectively,
when it's helpful (is it ever? I assume there are such situations, but I'm
no expert). Between the lines, I seem to infer that the WMF has a
'selectively' type of policy, but I also imagine that such communication
would likely come from the communication team, rather than directly from
the human rights team.

Best,
Lodewijk

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 3:51 PM WMF Human Rights <
talktohumanrig...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> In the interest of safeguarding confidential information and ensuring the
> safety of our community members, the Foundation will not publicly disclose
> details regarding human rights cases. The Human Rights Team recently
> updated its meta page  to
> clarify this approach. Our primary concern is to uphold the safety and
> privacy of everyone involved. At the same time, our inability to discuss
> these matters should not be read as inaction. We care deeply about
> volunteer safety and our role, more generally, involves different levels of
> internal support, wider advocacy and partnerships with others depending on
> the circumstances of an event.
>
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 6:06 AM Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> Let's put it a different way then:
>>
>> Is anyone at the WMF doing anything in support of the two jailed Saudi
>> Wikimedians, be it liaising with international or regional human rights
>> organisations, the US State Department, briefing journalists so the wider
>> public is aware of the situation, or anything else to make sure Osama and
>> Ziyad aren't forgotten about as they start (by my calculation) their fourth
>> year in jail?
>>
>> I am asking because the press reports published at the start of this year
>> do not seem to have led to any significant coverage of the two Wikimedians'
>> plight on the websites of major human rights organisations. (If I have
>> missed any, please let me know.)
>>
>> For example, I found nothing at all on the website of Reporters without
>> Borders. Similarly, the most recent Amnesty International report on the
>> "crackdown on online expression" in Saudi Arabia includes several mentions
>> of Twitter users but none of Wikipedians:
>>
>>
>> https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/02/saudi-arabia-alarming-crackdown-on-online-expression/
>>
>> Amnesty's report specifically mentions that a Twitter user was sentenced
>> for supporting women's rights activist Loujain al-Hathloul but fails to
>> mention that one of the jailed Wikimedians uploaded Loujain al-Hathloul's
>> Commons picture, which is used in her Wikipedia articles.
>>
>> I didn't find anything about Osama and Ziyad or, more generally,
>> Wikimedians in Saudi Arabia on the website of the EFF.
>>
>> There is a mention of Osama and Ziyad and the 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[WMF Human Rights]

 In the interest of safeguarding confidential information and ensuring the
safety of our community members, the Foundation will not publicly disclose
details regarding human rights cases. The Human Rights Team recently
updated its meta page  to
clarify this approach. Our primary concern is to uphold the safety and
privacy of everyone involved. At the same time, our inability to discuss
these matters should not be read as inaction. We care deeply about
volunteer safety and our role, more generally, involves different levels of
internal support, wider advocacy and partnerships with others depending on
the circumstances of an event.

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 6:06 AM Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Let's put it a different way then:
>
> Is anyone at the WMF doing anything in support of the two jailed Saudi
> Wikimedians, be it liaising with international or regional human rights
> organisations, the US State Department, briefing journalists so the wider
> public is aware of the situation, or anything else to make sure Osama and
> Ziyad aren't forgotten about as they start (by my calculation) their fourth
> year in jail?
>
> I am asking because the press reports published at the start of this year
> do not seem to have led to any significant coverage of the two Wikimedians'
> plight on the websites of major human rights organisations. (If I have
> missed any, please let me know.)
>
> For example, I found nothing at all on the website of Reporters without
> Borders. Similarly, the most recent Amnesty International report on the
> "crackdown on online expression" in Saudi Arabia includes several mentions
> of Twitter users but none of Wikipedians:
>
>
> https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/02/saudi-arabia-alarming-crackdown-on-online-expression/
>
> Amnesty's report specifically mentions that a Twitter user was sentenced
> for supporting women's rights activist Loujain al-Hathloul but fails to
> mention that one of the jailed Wikimedians uploaded Loujain al-Hathloul's
> Commons picture, which is used in her Wikipedia articles.
>
> I didn't find anything about Osama and Ziyad or, more generally,
> Wikimedians in Saudi Arabia on the website of the EFF.
>
> There is a mention of Osama and Ziyad and the fact that they were
> Wikipedians on the PEN website:
>
> https://pen.org/report/freedom-to-write-index-2022/
>
> The U.S. State Department's 2022 country report on Saudi Arabia, published
> in March 2023, includes a mention of Osama's 32-year prison sentence, but
> doesn't make clear that he was jailed for being a Wikipedian, and Ziyad is
> not mentioned:
>
>
> https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/saudi-arabia/
>
> Will this be remedied in the U.S. State Department's 2023 country report?
> I think each country report covers the period up to October of the
> preceding year, so this month will be the last chance to make sure the 2023
> report published next spring will include information on Osama and Ziyad's
> prison sentences and their Wikipedia activity.
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:09 PM The Cunctator 
> wrote:
>
>> Frankly, that's implausible.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 3:37 PM DerHexer via Wikimedia-l <
>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I do think that posting any kind of response to these questions *on a
>>> public mailing list* would do more harm than good. Thank you.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> DerHexer
>>> *Wikimedia Steward*
>>>
>>> Am Montag, 25. September 2023 um 21:20:21 MESZ hat Andreas Kolbe <
>>> jayen...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> As there was a recent press mention of Osama and Ziyad[1] (see "In the
>>> Media" in the current Signpost issue) – does the WMF's Human Rights Team
>>> (cc'ed) have any update on their situation?
>>>
>>> Has anyone else heard any news? If I recall correctly, Osama had married
>>> not long before being jailed in 2020 – has anyone been in touch with his
>>> wife?
>>>
>>> Is there anything the community can do?
>>>
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_imprisoned_for_editing_Wikipedia
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/CSBF3UGYR7BDU5XPYZFYQAABPXXY5PDG/
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>>> Public archives at
>>> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[geni]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 at 14:07, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> Is anyone at the WMF doing anything in support of the two jailed Saudi 
> Wikimedians, be it liaising with international or regional human rights 
> organisations, the US State Department, briefing journalists so the wider 
> public is aware of the situation, or anything else to make sure Osama and 
> Ziyad aren't forgotten about as they start (by my calculation) their fourth 
> year in jail?

Given Mohammed bin Salman current apparent attitude towards the US
none of those can reasonably be considered "anything in support ".
Realisticaly the only things likely to have any impact would be
sactions (non viable due to wider issues with global oil suppliers) or
rather a lot of violence (which has some very obvious downsides). The
upshot is that US goverment has very little ability to do anything
(even if it wanted to) and the foundation not at all.



-- 
geni
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[Andreas Kolbe]

Let's put it a different way then:

Is anyone at the WMF doing anything in support of the two jailed Saudi
Wikimedians, be it liaising with international or regional human rights
organisations, the US State Department, briefing journalists so the wider
public is aware of the situation, or anything else to make sure Osama and
Ziyad aren't forgotten about as they start (by my calculation) their fourth
year in jail?

I am asking because the press reports published at the start of this year
do not seem to have led to any significant coverage of the two Wikimedians'
plight on the websites of major human rights organisations. (If I have
missed any, please let me know.)

For example, I found nothing at all on the website of Reporters without
Borders. Similarly, the most recent Amnesty International report on the
"crackdown on online expression" in Saudi Arabia includes several mentions
of Twitter users but none of Wikipedians:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/02/saudi-arabia-alarming-crackdown-on-online-expression/

Amnesty's report specifically mentions that a Twitter user was sentenced
for supporting women's rights activist Loujain al-Hathloul but fails to
mention that one of the jailed Wikimedians uploaded Loujain al-Hathloul's
Commons picture, which is used in her Wikipedia articles.

I didn't find anything about Osama and Ziyad or, more generally,
Wikimedians in Saudi Arabia on the website of the EFF.

There is a mention of Osama and Ziyad and the fact that they were
Wikipedians on the PEN website:

https://pen.org/report/freedom-to-write-index-2022/

The U.S. State Department's 2022 country report on Saudi Arabia, published
in March 2023, includes a mention of Osama's 32-year prison sentence, but
doesn't make clear that he was jailed for being a Wikipedian, and Ziyad is
not mentioned:

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/saudi-arabia/

Will this be remedied in the U.S. State Department's 2023 country report? I
think each country report covers the period up to October of the preceding
year, so this month will be the last chance to make sure the 2023 report
published next spring will include information on Osama and Ziyad's prison
sentences and their Wikipedia activity.

Andreas



On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:09 PM The Cunctator  wrote:

> Frankly, that's implausible.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 3:37 PM DerHexer via Wikimedia-l <
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>> I do think that posting any kind of response to these questions *on a
>> public mailing list* would do more harm than good. Thank you.
>>
>> Best,
>> DerHexer
>> *Wikimedia Steward*
>>
>> Am Montag, 25. September 2023 um 21:20:21 MESZ hat Andreas Kolbe <
>> jayen...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben:
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> As there was a recent press mention of Osama and Ziyad[1] (see "In the
>> Media" in the current Signpost issue) – does the WMF's Human Rights Team
>> (cc'ed) have any update on their situation?
>>
>> Has anyone else heard any news? If I recall correctly, Osama had married
>> not long before being jailed in 2020 – has anyone been in touch with his
>> wife?
>>
>> Is there anything the community can do?
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>> [1]
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_imprisoned_for_editing_Wikipedia
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[The Cunctator]

Frankly, that's implausible.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 3:37 PM DerHexer via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

> I do think that posting any kind of response to these questions *on a
> public mailing list* would do more harm than good. Thank you.
>
> Best,
> DerHexer
> *Wikimedia Steward*
>
> Am Montag, 25. September 2023 um 21:20:21 MESZ hat Andreas Kolbe <
> jayen...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben:
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> As there was a recent press mention of Osama and Ziyad[1] (see "In the
> Media" in the current Signpost issue) – does the WMF's Human Rights Team
> (cc'ed) have any update on their situation?
>
> Has anyone else heard any news? If I recall correctly, Osama had married
> not long before being jailed in 2020 – has anyone been in touch with his
> wife?
>
> Is there anything the community can do?
>
> Andreas
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_imprisoned_for_editing_Wikipedia
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Osama and Ziyad

[DerHexer via Wikimedia-l]

 I do think that posting any kind of response to these questions on a public 
mailing list would do more harm than good. Thank you.

Best,DerHexerWikimedia Steward
Am Montag, 25. September 2023 um 21:20:21 MESZ hat Andreas Kolbe 
 Folgendes geschrieben:  
 
 Dear all,
As there was a recent press mention of Osama and Ziyad[1] (see "In the Media" 
in the current Signpost issue) – does the WMF's Human Rights Team (cc'ed) have 
any update on their situation? 
Has anyone else heard any news? If I recall correctly, Osama had married not 
long before being jailed in 2020 – has anyone been in touch with his wife?
Is there anything the community can do?
Andreas

[1] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_imprisoned_for_editing_Wikipedia___
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