Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
The bit except you can't really, and if you do it'll get randomly revoked is false or unproven. Is there any example of rejected or revoked global IP-exempt valid application in the last few months in which we had the policy? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NOP Note that every single Tor user in all Wikimedia projects (as opposed to just one visible guy speaking at conferences) is notified of this policy and possibility thanks to an explanatory error message. Nemo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Gryllida gryll...@fastmail.fm wrote: On Mon, 13 Jan 2014, at 15:29, Gregory Maxwell wrote: What freenode does is not functionally useful for Tor users. In my first hand experience it manages to enable abusive activity while simultaneously eliminating Tor's usefulness at protecting its users. The register at real IP, then only use TOR through an account flow implies trust in some entity (such as freenode irc network opers or Wikipedia CheckUsers). I currently believe that requiring such trust doesn't eliminate TOR's usefullness at protecting its users. I rather think it does. Assume a person under continual surveillance. If they have to reveal their true IP address to Wikipedia in order to register their editor account, the adversary will learn it as well, and can then attribute all subsequent edits by that handle to that person *whether or not* those edits are routed over an anonymity network. To satisfy Applebaum's request, there needs to be a mechanism whereby someone can edit even if *all of their communications with Wikipedia, including the initial contact* are coming over Tor or equivalent. Blinded, costly-to-create handles (minted by Wikipedia itself) are one possible way to achieve that; if there are concrete reasons why that will not work for Wikipedia, the people designing these schemes would like to know about them. zw ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On 01/13/2014 11:32 AM, Zack Weinberg wrote: Assume a person under continual surveillance. If they have to reveal their true IP address to Wikipedia in order to register their editor account, the adversary will learn it as well, and can then attribute all subsequent edits by that handle to that person *whether or not* those edits are routed over an anonymity network. If you start with that assumption, then it is unreasonable to assume that the endpoints aren't /also/ compromised or under surveillance. Editing Wikipedia is an inherently public action, if your security or life is in danger from editing it, then TOR will protect neither because even if you had 100% confidence in every possible exit node (which is most certainly false), it does nothing to protect the endpoints. What TOR may be good at is to protect your privacy from casual or economic spying; in which case going to some random Internet access point to create an account protects you adequately. -- Marc ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 01/13/2014 11:32 AM, Zack Weinberg wrote: Assume a person under continual surveillance. If they have to reveal their true IP address to Wikipedia in order to register their editor account, the adversary will learn it as well, and can then attribute all subsequent edits by that handle to that person *whether or not* those edits are routed over an anonymity network. If you start with that assumption, then it is unreasonable to assume that the endpoints aren't /also/ compromised or under surveillance. Not true. Tor's threat model already includes protecting clients against malicious exit nodes. The client endpoint can be secured by using trusted hardware (Snowden notwithstanding, I feel relatively comfortable assuming that attacks on the integrity of computers bought off the shelf and never let out of one's sight since are rare and expensive, even for nation-state adversaries) and a canned Tor-centric client operating system executing from read-only media (e.g. Tails). What TOR may be good at is to protect your privacy from casual or economic spying; in which case going to some random Internet access point to create an account protects you adequately. That is exactly the wrong advice to give the sort of people who want to be able to edit Wikipedia over Tor (you should be thinking of democracy activists in totalitarian states). Random publicly-accessible internet access points are *more* likely to be under aggressive surveillance, including thoroughly-bugged client OSes which one may not supplant. zw ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Zack Weinberg za...@cmu.edu wrote: To satisfy Applebaum's request, there needs to be a mechanism whereby someone can edit even if *all of their communications with Wikipedia, including the initial contact* are coming over Tor or equivalent. Blinded, costly-to-create handles (minted by Wikipedia itself) are one possible way to achieve that; if there are concrete reasons why that will not work for Wikipedia, the people designing these schemes would like to know about them. This should be possible, according to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NOP, which Nemo also posted. The user sends an email to the stewards (using tor to access email service of their choice). Account is created, and user can edit Wikimedia wikis. Or is there still a step that is missing? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:43:53AM -0500, Marc A. Pelletier wrote: If you start with that assumption, then it is unreasonable to assume that the endpoints aren't /also/ compromised or under surveillance. Editing Wikipedia is an inherently public action, if your security or life is in danger from editing it, then TOR will protect neither because even if you had 100% confidence in every possible exit node (which is most certainly false), it does nothing to protect the endpoints. What TOR may be good at is to protect your privacy from casual or economic spying; in which case going to some random Internet access point to create an account protects you adequately. What do you mean by endpoints? Based on the above, I think you've completely misunderstood Tor's design mode of operation. https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en might be a good start, and I'm sure you can find more technical information if you search around. As for the inherently public action of editing Wikipedia: the content of edits is public, but the identity of the editor is not (or should not be), so your claim baffles me a bit. Plus, it sounds a bit like a variation of the I have nothing to hide argument to me, to which I couldn't disagree more with. Regards, Faidon ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On 01/13/2014 12:15 PM, Faidon Liambotis wrote: What do you mean by endpoints? The computer from which the edit is made is the salient one. Or, indeed even visual observation of the person of interest coupled with rubber hose crypto. The scenario I am trying to explain is that which starts from the given premise: Assume a person under continual surveillance. TOR offers no protection against that scenario, privacy pundits notwithstanding. Plus, it sounds a bit like a variation of the I have nothing to hide argument to me, to which I couldn't disagree more with. No, it does not. What I *am* saying is that if you place your freedom or life in danger by editing Wikipedia then TOR only provides very limited protection at best, and the scenarios where that is not the case are already adequately covered with IPBE. It it worthwhile to try and give as much privacy as possible for people under repressive regimes? On moral grounds, without doubt. But those are rare an exceptional circumstances, and the cost of opening the door to abuse is high. By definition, any real solution will be involved, hard to get right, and expensive (in time and resources). -- Marc ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
quote name=Marc A. Pelletier date=2014-01-13 time=12:27:11 -0500 The scenario I am trying to explain is that which starts from the given premise: Assume a person under continual surveillance. TOR offers no protection against that scenario, privacy pundits notwithstanding. Sure, and even more explicit: given the resources of most states, a 'person of interest' wouldn't be able to edit WP without them knowing, so why care? That's a strawman (both your statement and mine). We should care about the bigger majority who are just being caught up in the generalized dragnet of surveillance, which we can do something about. Let's prevent them from connecting the dots and finding a new person of interest. Plus, it sounds a bit like a variation of the I have nothing to hide argument to me, to which I couldn't disagree more with. No, it does not. What I *am* saying is that if you place your freedom or life in danger by editing Wikipedia then TOR only provides very limited protection at best, and the scenarios where that is not the case are already adequately covered with IPBE. I think you're talking past each other here. :/ It it worthwhile to try and give as much privacy as possible for people under repressive regimes? On moral grounds, without doubt. But those are rare an exceptional circumstances, and the cost of opening the door to abuse is high. By definition, any real solution will be involved, hard to get right, and expensive (in time and resources). Like everything we do at WMF/in the Wikimedia community. Greg -- | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @gregA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D | ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On 01/13/2014 12:55 PM, Greg Grossmeier wrote: That's a strawman (both your statement and mine). That wasn't /my/ statement, I was just pointing out its straw nature myself. :-) My point was exactly that trying to use emotional statements as rationale for change won't lead to anything good. Can we look into ways of making it more practical to edit through TOR without causing damage to the projects? Yes. It it useful to start throwing around the OMG think of the repressive regimes thing around? No. -- Marc ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
As long as I know, the solution nemo pointed out works perfectly on Persian Wikipedia which deals with Iranian internet censorship on daily bases. We have people using open proxies or Tor to connect and it is doing well with IP block exemption. The actual number of users using this beside admins ( who get this automatically) was at most 50. So I think there is no need to add any other system, procedure and etc. And I talk about local IP block exemption not the global one. On Jan 13, 2014 7:03 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 01/13/2014 12:55 PM, Greg Grossmeier wrote: That's a strawman (both your statement and mine). That wasn't /my/ statement, I was just pointing out its straw nature myself. :-) My point was exactly that trying to use emotional statements as rationale for change won't lead to anything good. Can we look into ways of making it more practical to edit through TOR without causing damage to the projects? Yes. It it useful to start throwing around the OMG think of the repressive regimes thing around? No. -- Marc ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
I started that thread. 1. Please refer to https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59146 Enabling also edit access to Wikipedia via TOR which much better allows tracking of this issue towards to find a practical solution. 2. Recommended reading: Peter Wayner Disappearing Cryptography Third edition pages 225-227, 2009. ISBN 978-0-12-374479-1 Pages 225-227 Chapter 10.7.3 Stopping Bad user: bad users of the onion routing network can ruin the reputation of other users. The _/*Wikipedia*/_, for instance, often blocks TOR exit nodes complete because some people have used the network to hide their identities while defacing the wiki's entries... In the further passages Peter Wayner explains a one straight-forward solution is to use some form of certificates with a /_*blind signature*_/, a technique that borrows from some of the early solutions for building anonymous digital cash (A typical example with Alice follows - must read this). ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Tue, 14 Jan 2014, at 3:32, Zack Weinberg wrote: On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Gryllida gryll...@fastmail.fm wrote: On Mon, 13 Jan 2014, at 15:29, Gregory Maxwell wrote: What freenode does is not functionally useful for Tor users. In my first hand experience it manages to enable abusive activity while simultaneously eliminating Tor's usefulness at protecting its users. The register at real IP, then only use TOR through an account flow implies trust in some entity (such as freenode irc network opers or Wikipedia CheckUsers). I currently believe that requiring such trust doesn't eliminate TOR's usefullness at protecting its users. I rather think it does. Assume a person under continual surveillance. If they have to reveal their true IP address to Wikipedia in order to register their editor account, the adversary will learn it as well, and can then attribute all subsequent edits by that handle to that person *whether or not* those edits are routed over an anonymity network. Doesn't it get solved if, despite the surveillance, the trust entity (freenode opers or wikipedia checkusers) reveals the user's IP only under a court order? To satisfy Applebaum's request, there needs to be a mechanism whereby someone can edit even if *all of their communications with Wikipedia, including the initial contact* are coming over Tor or equivalent. Rubbish. This makes a vandal inherently untrackable and unblockable. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Just create a page editable for everybody (as user talk pages are editable for blocked users): * [[Wikipedia:Edit suggestions by TOR users]] Redirect to it with a notice when a TOR node click on edit tabs. Later, any user can add the suggestions to the articles, if they are OK. Anyway, TOR doesn't seem 100% secure, so perhaps a notice that they can be tracked would be nice. 2014/1/13 Gryllida gryll...@fastmail.fm On Tue, 14 Jan 2014, at 3:32, Zack Weinberg wrote: On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Gryllida gryll...@fastmail.fm wrote: On Mon, 13 Jan 2014, at 15:29, Gregory Maxwell wrote: What freenode does is not functionally useful for Tor users. In my first hand experience it manages to enable abusive activity while simultaneously eliminating Tor's usefulness at protecting its users. The register at real IP, then only use TOR through an account flow implies trust in some entity (such as freenode irc network opers or Wikipedia CheckUsers). I currently believe that requiring such trust doesn't eliminate TOR's usefullness at protecting its users. I rather think it does. Assume a person under continual surveillance. If they have to reveal their true IP address to Wikipedia in order to register their editor account, the adversary will learn it as well, and can then attribute all subsequent edits by that handle to that person *whether or not* those edits are routed over an anonymity network. Doesn't it get solved if, despite the surveillance, the trust entity (freenode opers or wikipedia checkusers) reveals the user's IP only under a court order? To satisfy Applebaum's request, there needs to be a mechanism whereby someone can edit even if *all of their communications with Wikipedia, including the initial contact* are coming over Tor or equivalent. Rubbish. This makes a vandal inherently untrackable and unblockable. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Gryllida gryll...@fastmail.fm wrote: On Tue, 14 Jan 2014, at 3:32, Zack Weinberg wrote: I rather think it does. Assume a person under continual surveillance. If they have to reveal their true IP address to Wikipedia in order to register their editor account, the adversary will learn it as well, and can then attribute all subsequent edits by that handle to that person *whether or not* those edits are routed over an anonymity network. Doesn't it get solved if, despite the surveillance, the trust entity (freenode opers or wikipedia checkusers) reveals the user's IP only under a court order? No. The adversary doesn't need to talk to the trust entity to get the user's IP. The adversary learns the IP by eavesdropping on the initial, uncloaked network traffic between the user-to-be and the trusted entity. Equally, in some contexts it is unacceptable for the trust entity to be able to reveal the user's IP even under legal compulsion or threat of force. To satisfy Applebaum's request, there needs to be a mechanism whereby someone can edit even if *all of their communications with Wikipedia, including the initial contact* are coming over Tor or equivalent. Rubbish. This makes a vandal inherently untrackable and unblockable. This isn't necessarily so. In my previous message I mentioned one technique that *should* be adequate to preventing vandals even when the administrators do not and have never known their IP address of origin. There are others in the literature, and if there are concrete reasons why none of those techniques will work for Wikipedia, people want to know about it. zw ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:08 AM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: Does Jake have any mechanism in mind to prevent abuse? Is there any possible mechanism available to prevent abuse? Preventing abuse is the wrong goal. There is plenty of abuse even with all the privacy smashing new editor deterring convolutions that we can think up. Abuse is part of the cost of doing business of operating a publicly editable Wiki, it's a cost which is normally well worth its benefits. The goal needs to merely be to limit the abuse enough so as not to upset the abuse vs benefit equation. Today, people abuse, they get blocked, they go to another library/coffee shop/find another proxy/wash rinse repeat. We can't do any better than that model, and it turns out that it's okay. If a solution for tor users results in a cost cost (time, money, whatever unit of payment is being expended) for repeated abuse comparable to the other ways abusive people access the site then it should not be a major source of trouble which outweighs the benefits. (Even if you do not value freedom of expression and association for people in less free parts of the world at all). ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
This question is analogous to the question of open proxies. The answer has universally been that the costs (abuse) are just too high. However, we might consider doing what the freenode IRC network does. Freenode requires SASL authentication to connect on Tor, which basically means only users with registered accounts can use it. The main reason for hardblocking and not allowing registered accounts on-wiki via Tor is that CheckUsers need useful IP data. But it might be feasible if we just force all account creation to happen on real IPs, although that still hides some data from CheckUsers. On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Gregory Maxwell gmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:08 AM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: Does Jake have any mechanism in mind to prevent abuse? Is there any possible mechanism available to prevent abuse? Preventing abuse is the wrong goal. There is plenty of abuse even with all the privacy smashing new editor deterring convolutions that we can think up. Abuse is part of the cost of doing business of operating a publicly editable Wiki, it's a cost which is normally well worth its benefits. The goal needs to merely be to limit the abuse enough so as not to upset the abuse vs benefit equation. Today, people abuse, they get blocked, they go to another library/coffee shop/find another proxy/wash rinse repeat. We can't do any better than that model, and it turns out that it's okay. If a solution for tor users results in a cost cost (time, money, whatever unit of payment is being expended) for repeated abuse comparable to the other ways abusive people access the site then it should not be a major source of trouble which outweighs the benefits. (Even if you do not value freedom of expression and association for people in less free parts of the world at all). ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: This question is analogous to the question of open proxies. The answer has universally been that the costs (abuse) are just too high. No, it's not analogous to just permitting open proxies as no one in this thread is suggesting just flipping it on. I proposed issuing blind exemption tokens up-thread as an example mechanism which would preserve the rate limiting of abusive use without removing privacy. However, we might consider doing what the freenode IRC network does. Freenode requires SASL authentication to connect on Tor, which basically means only users with registered accounts can use it. The main reason for hardblocking and not allowing registered accounts on-wiki via Tor is that CheckUsers need useful IP data. But it might be feasible if we just force all account creation to happen on real IPs, although that still hides some data from CheckUsers. What freenode does is not functionally useful for Tor users. In my first hand experience it manages to enable abusive activity while simultaneously eliminating Tor's usefulness at protecting its users. The only value it provides is providing a pretext of tor support without actually doing something good... and we already have the you can get an IPblock-exempt (except you can't really, and if you do it'll get randomly revoked. if all we want is a pretext. :) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014, at 15:29, Gregory Maxwell wrote: On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: This question is analogous to the question of open proxies. The answer has universally been that the costs (abuse) are just too high. No, it's not analogous to just permitting open proxies as no one in this thread is suggesting just flipping it on. I proposed issuing blind exemption tokens up-thread as an example mechanism which would preserve the rate limiting of abusive use without removing privacy. However, we might consider doing what the freenode IRC network does. Freenode requires SASL authentication to connect on Tor, which basically means only users with registered accounts can use it. The main reason for hardblocking and not allowing registered accounts on-wiki via Tor is that CheckUsers need useful IP data. But it might be feasible if we just force all account creation to happen on real IPs, although that still hides some data from CheckUsers. What freenode does is not functionally useful for Tor users. In my first hand experience it manages to enable abusive activity while simultaneously eliminating Tor's usefulness at protecting its users. The only value it provides is providing a pretext of tor support without actually doing something good... and we already have the you can get an IPblock-exempt (except you can't really, and if you do it'll get randomly revoked. if all we want is a pretext. :) The register at real IP, then only use TOR through an account flow implies trust in some entity (such as freenode irc network opers or Wikipedia CheckUsers). I currently believe that requiring such trust doesn't eliminate TOR's usefullness at protecting its users. Gryllida ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Sob perennial discussions. Personally I consider this issue solved: a global policy now is in place to allow global exemptions via email requests. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NOP Nemo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Does Jake have any mechanism in mind to prevent abuse? Is there any possible mechanism available to prevent abuse? On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Rjd0060 rjd0060.w...@gmail.com wrote: Shouldn't the discussion *not* be happening on Bugzilla, but somewhere where the wider community is actually present? Perhaps Meta? Well the issue is not whether we want Tor users editing or not. We do. The issue is finding a software solution that makes it possible. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Hi, during the 30C3 Congress [1] in Hamburg - where neither Wikipedia Foundation nor MediaWiki were formally present this year (but should be next year)- Jacob Appelbaum [2] - core member of the TOR project - complained in one of his numerous talks that the (edit) access to Wikipedia via TOR is not possible. He requested that a way should be found to enable the TOR access including edit access to Wikipedia. I am just the messenger of this message. Regards, Tom [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Editing via tor is possible on WMF wikis if the account / user is trusted On Monday, December 30, 2013, Thomas Gries wrote: Hi, during the 30C3 Congress [1] in Hamburg - where neither Wikipedia Foundation nor MediaWiki were formally present this year (but should be next year)- Jacob Appelbaum [2] - core member of the TOR project - complained in one of his numerous talks that the (edit) access to Wikipedia via TOR is not possible. He requested that a way should be found to enable the TOR access including edit access to Wikipedia. I am just the messenger of this message. Regards, Tom [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Am 30.12.2013 23:01, schrieb John: Editing via tor is possible on WMF wikis if the account / user is trusted Can you explain this briefly, or send me a pointer ? This single info can be a help for him and others. (Honestly, I do not know, what a trusted account/user is.) I am on #mediawiki now On Monday, December 30, 2013, Thomas Gries wrote: Hi, during the 30C3 Congress [1] in Hamburg - where neither Wikipedia Foundation nor MediaWiki were formally present this year (but should be next year)- Jacob Appelbaum [2] - core member of the TOR project - complained in one of his numerous talks that the (edit) access to Wikipedia via TOR is not possible. He requested that a way should be found to enable the TOR access including edit access to Wikipedia. I am just the messenger of this message. Regards, Tom [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Give me 25 minutes and ill join On Monday, December 30, 2013, Thomas Gries wrote: Am 30.12.2013 23:01, schrieb John: Editing via tor is possible on WMF wikis if the account / user is trusted Can you explain this briefly, or send me a pointer ? This single info can be a help for him and others. (Honestly, I do not know, what a trusted account/user is.) I am on #mediawiki now On Monday, December 30, 2013, Thomas Gries wrote: Hi, during the 30C3 Congress [1] in Hamburg - where neither Wikipedia Foundation nor MediaWiki were formally present this year (but should be next year)- Jacob Appelbaum [2] - core member of the TOR project - complained in one of his numerous talks that the (edit) access to Wikipedia via TOR is not possible. He requested that a way should be found to enable the TOR access including edit access to Wikipedia. I am just the messenger of this message. Regards, Tom [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Thomas Gries m...@tgries.de wrote: Can you explain this briefly, or send me a pointer ? This single info can be a help for him and others. (Honestly, I do not know, what a trusted account/user is.) I am on #mediawiki now There is a special permission that allows specific accounts to not be affected by IP blocks. It is granted by application on a case-by-case basis. You can find more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption. I am not sure whether similar processes exist on other wikis. As for the original topic, this has been thoroughly discussed before, and every time I forget what the result of the discussion is. I know for sure that since MediaWiki is fundamentally centered around knowing users' IP addresses in order to stop sockpuppets, simply allowing Tor users to edit will not happen. We need a solution that allows us to know a Tor user's IP address without actually known their IP address. If that sounds like a difficult problem, it's because it is. One suggestion was to use a type of token authentication, where we use RSA blinding in order to give anonymous exemption tokens. Another suggestion was to simply abandon IP blocks, since users can easily enough change their IP addresses anyway. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Gries m...@tgries.de wrote: Am 30.12.2013 23:01, schrieb John: Editing via tor is possible on WMF wikis if the account / user is trusted Can you explain this briefly, or send me a pointer ? This single info can be a help for him and others. (Honestly, I do not know, what a trusted account/user is.) It seems he already knows that - he mentioned it in the 30C3 talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SscFfzD_his#t=36m55s (see also Roger Dingledine earlier in the same talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SscFfzD_his#t=34m18s ) This problem has been discussed many times before, also on this list: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/wikitech/323006 There have been quite a few well-meaning but naive proposals to solve it; I understand Jacob's remarks as a welcome call to the TOR community to work more intensively with Wikipedians to understand the actual issues that motivated Wikipedia's TOR block. I am on #mediawiki now On Monday, December 30, 2013, Thomas Gries wrote: Hi, during the 30C3 Congress [1] in Hamburg - where neither Wikipedia Foundation nor MediaWiki were formally present this year (but should be next year)- Jacob Appelbaum [2] - core member of the TOR project - complained in one of his numerous talks that the (edit) access to Wikipedia via TOR is not possible. He requested that a way should be found to enable the TOR access including edit access to Wikipedia. I am just the messenger of this message. Regards, Tom [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- Tilman Bayer Senior Operations Analyst (Movement Communications) Wikimedia Foundation IRC (Freenode): HaeB ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
I understand Jacob's remarks as a welcome call to the TOR community to work more intensively with Wikipedians to understand the actual issues that motivated Wikipedia's TOR block. This is, why we (or some core) MediaWiki developers should also attend such congresses like the C3 regularly. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
FWIW, I set IP block exempt on Jake's account a few years ago, but to my frustration it looks like someone removed it because of inactivity. (Editorializing a bit, I don't see much value in the removal; while it is true that an inactive user's account could be broken into, the permission extends to a single account, which can be blocked like any other if it starts to act unproductively.) -Kat On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:01 PM, John phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote: Editing via tor is possible on WMF wikis if the account / user is trusted On Monday, December 30, 2013, Thomas Gries wrote: Hi, during the 30C3 Congress [1] in Hamburg - where neither Wikipedia Foundation nor MediaWiki were formally present this year (but should be next year)- Jacob Appelbaum [2] - core member of the TOR project - complained in one of his numerous talks that the (edit) access to Wikipedia via TOR is not possible. He requested that a way should be found to enable the TOR access including edit access to Wikipedia. I am just the messenger of this message. Regards, Tom [1] https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- Your donations keep Wikipedia free: https://donate.wikimedia.org ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Thank you all, I expected such an explanation, it matches my understanding who MediaWiki currently works. I think, it is worth to start a formal bugzilla about that topic, so that it can be better tracked and commented. Am 30.12.2013 23:10, schrieb Tyler Romeo: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Thomas Gries m...@tgries.de wrote: Can you explain this briefly, or send me a pointer ? This single info can be a help for him and others. (Honestly, I do not know, what a trusted account/user is.) I am on #mediawiki now There is a special permission that allows specific accounts to not be affected by IP blocks. It is granted by application on a case-by-case basis. You can find more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption. I am not sure whether similar processes exist on other wikis. As for the original topic, this has been thoroughly discussed before, and every time I forget what the result of the discussion is. I know for sure that since MediaWiki is fundamentally centered around knowing users' IP addresses in order to stop sockpuppets, simply allowing Tor users to edit will not happen. We need a solution that allows us to know a Tor user's IP address without actually known their IP address. If that sounds like a difficult problem, it's because it is. One suggestion was to use a type of token authentication, where we use RSA blinding in order to give anonymous exemption tokens. Another suggestion was to simply abandon IP blocks, since users can easily enough change their IP addresses anyway. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Gries m...@tgries.de wrote: This is, why we (or some core) MediaWiki developers should also attend such congresses like the C3 regularly. Times like these living in USA is inconvenient. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
I opened https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59146 -Enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR for discussions T. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Shouldn't the discussion *not* be happening on Bugzilla, but somewhere where the wider community is actually present? Perhaps Meta? On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Thomas Gries m...@tgries.de wrote: I opened https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59146 -Enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR for discussions T. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- Ryan User:Rjd0060 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Rjd0060 rjd0060.w...@gmail.com wrote: Shouldn't the discussion *not* be happening on Bugzilla, but somewhere where the wider community is actually present? Perhaps Meta? Well the issue is not whether we want Tor users editing or not. We do. The issue is finding a software solution that makes it possible. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On 30 December 2013 18:09, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Rjd0060 rjd0060.w...@gmail.com wrote: Shouldn't the discussion *not* be happening on Bugzilla, but somewhere where the wider community is actually present? Perhaps Meta? Well the issue is not whether we want Tor users editing or not. We do. The issue is finding a software solution that makes it possible. I disagree fundamentally with your position here. It's technically possible for Tor editors to edit; all we have to do is unblock Tor nodes (or for them to disable Tor), and they can edit. It is the social and policy-based processes that prevent Tor users from using Tor to edit. I happen to agree with those processes (having cleaned up major messes from unblocked Tor nodes on enwiki), but it's not a technical problem, really. Risker ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On 12/30/2013 06:49 PM, Risker wrote: I disagree fundamentally with your position here. I have to agree with Risker here (Oy! Twice in one year!) The problem isn't that it is technically difficult to allow edits through TOR, but that the vast majority of edits coming in from TOR are abusive, and impossible to prevent or mitigate since blocking is a noop. This is why, /as a social mechanism/, the English Wikipedia has long established that TOR editing must be limited to the very few editors who (a) have established a positive track record and (b) actually /need/ the extra privacy. Discussing this in a bugzilla will - at best - be pointless because you need to convince the community first. -- Marc ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:49 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I disagree fundamentally with your position here. It's technically possible for Tor editors to edit; all we have to do is unblock Tor nodes (or for them to disable Tor), and they can edit. It is the social and policy-based processes that prevent Tor users from using Tor to edit. I happen to agree with those processes (having cleaned up major messes from unblocked Tor nodes on enwiki), but it's not a technical problem, really. I'm confused exactly what you are disagreeing with? The consensus currently is that Tor users should not be able to edit raw. Thus the issue at hand is that there is currently no technical solution for allowing Tor users to edit while still being able to block them. If you want to change the consensus and unblock Tor users from editing, then it is indeed a social/policy issue. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On 30 December 2013 18:59, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:49 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I disagree fundamentally with your position here. It's technically possible for Tor editors to edit; all we have to do is unblock Tor nodes (or for them to disable Tor), and they can edit. It is the social and policy-based processes that prevent Tor users from using Tor to edit. I happen to agree with those processes (having cleaned up major messes from unblocked Tor nodes on enwiki), but it's not a technical problem, really. I'm confused exactly what you are disagreeing with? The consensus currently is that Tor users should not be able to edit raw. Thus the issue at hand is that there is currently no technical solution for allowing Tor users to edit while still being able to block them. If you want to change the consensus and unblock Tor users from editing, then it is indeed a social/policy issue. I have no desire to change the status quo. But the solution of being able to isolate and block individual accounts through Tor would require a change in Tor's software and principles, not MediaWiki's. One of its core characteristics is to render accounts technically indistinguishable, and to seek alternate routes when an account is prevented from editing/accessing. Risker ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 December 2013 18:59, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:49 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I disagree fundamentally with your position here. It's technically possible for Tor editors to edit; all we have to do is unblock Tor nodes (or for them to disable Tor), and they can edit. It is the social and policy-based processes that prevent Tor users from using Tor to edit. I happen to agree with those processes (having cleaned up major messes from unblocked Tor nodes on enwiki), but it's not a technical problem, really. I'm confused exactly what you are disagreeing with? The consensus currently is that Tor users should not be able to edit raw. Thus the issue at hand is that there is currently no technical solution for allowing Tor users to edit while still being able to block them. If you want to change the consensus and unblock Tor users from editing, then it is indeed a social/policy issue. I have no desire to change the status quo. But the solution of being able to isolate and block individual accounts through Tor would require a change in Tor's software and principles, not MediaWiki's. One of its core characteristics is to render accounts technically indistinguishable, and to seek alternate routes when an account is prevented from editing/accessing. I think there may have been some progress on this since the last time it was brought up, since we now have OAuth in place. It might be a way to help bridge this gap. I was talking with Tom Lowenthal, who is a tor developer. He was trying to convince Tilman and I that IP's were just a form of collateral that we implicitly hold for anonymous editors. If they edit badly, we take away the right of that IP to edit, so they have to expend some effort to get a new one. Tor makes that impossible for us, so one of his ideas is that we shift to some other form of collateral-- an email address, mobile phone number, etc. Tilman wasn't convinced, but I think I'm mostly there. We probably don't want to do that work in MediaWiki, but with OAuth, anyone can write an editing proxy that allows connections from Tor, ideally negotiates some kind of collateral (proof of work, bitcoin, whatever), and edits on behalf of the tor user. Individuals can still be held accountable (either blocked on wiki, or you can block them in your app), or if your app lets too many vandals in, we'll revoke your entire OAuth consumer key. So I'm not claiming to have solved this, but if other people want to experiment with ways to do this, I think they can do it without a change to the current blocking policy, or getting any code deployed on the WMF cluster. Risker ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Chris Steipp cste...@wikimedia.org wrote: I was talking with Tom Lowenthal, who is a tor developer. He was trying to convince Tilman and I that IP's were just a form of collateral that we implicitly hold for anonymous editors. If they edit badly, we take away the right of that IP to edit, so they have to expend some effort to get a new one. Tor makes that impossible for us, so one of his ideas is that we shift to some other form of collateral-- an email address, mobile phone number, etc. Tilman wasn't convinced, but I think I'm mostly there. This is a viable idea. Email addresses are a viable option considering they take just as much (if not a little bit more) effort to change over as IP addresses. We can take it even a step further and only allow email addresses from specific domains, i.e., we can restrict providers of so-called throwaway emails. Probably won't accomplish too much, but in the end it's all just a means of making it more difficult for vandals. It will never be impossible. We probably don't want to do that work in MediaWiki, but with OAuth, anyone can write an editing proxy that allows connections from Tor, ideally negotiates some kind of collateral (proof of work, bitcoin, whatever), and edits on behalf of the tor user. Individuals can still be held accountable (either blocked on wiki, or you can block them in your app), or if your app lets too many vandals in, we'll revoke your entire OAuth consumer key. It is definitely outside of core scope, but is it within OAuth scope? If anything I think it would be some sort of separate extension that relies on OAuth, but is not actually part of OAuth itself. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Chris Steipp wrote: I think there may have been some progress on this since the last time it was brought up, since we now have OAuth in place. It might be a way to help bridge this gap. I was talking with Tom Lowenthal, who is a tor developer. He was trying to convince Tilman and I that IP's were just a form of collateral that we implicitly hold for anonymous editors. Explicitly, no? We actively record and retain the associated IP address indefinitely if a user makes an edit without logging in. If those edits are disruptive, there's usually a permanent public record. The collateral idea is interesting, though it should really be verifiable collateral, I believe. You have to round-trip with the mobile number, e-mail address, credit card number, etc. to ensure that it's legitimate. Spoofed IP addresses (whether through open proxies or Tor) are generally disallowed due to the abuse vector. Presumably in part because of the weak verifiability of IP addresses as compared to other forms of Identification. And then of course there are projects like the XFF project, which like the Tor exemption, seek to strike a balance between liberty and anarchy. Lar used to say that you could nearly eliminate socking if you required everyone to verify with a credit card. Which is true, but Given the current rewrite of the privacy policy, it may not even be possible to collect other forms of identification without a Board resolution. Everyone will read the draft privacy policy's we try to collect as little as possible language differently, though. At Wikimedia's size, any potential collateral solution is proportionately difficult to scale and secure. Wikimedia gets a lot of requests, so it would subsequently be verifying a lot of data (we already send out X e-mails per day and growing). In terms of security, you have to prevent the verification system from abuse. Similar to how the donation system has been used to make it easier to steal credit cards, mobile phone number and other types of verification can make nefariousness easier. So you need to implement hard and soft rate-limiting and other anti-abuse mechanisms. Bleh. MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Chris Steipp cste...@wikimedia.org wrote: I was talking with Tom Lowenthal, who is a tor developer. He was trying to convince Tilman and I that IP's were just a form of collateral that we implicitly hold for anonymous editors. If they edit badly, we take away the right of that IP to edit, so they have to expend some effort to get a new one. Tor makes that impossible for us, so one of his ideas is that we shift to some other form of collateral-- an email address, mobile phone number, etc. Tilman wasn't convinced, but I think I'm mostly there. This is a viable idea. Email addresses are a viable option considering they take just as much (if not a little bit more) effort to change over as IP addresses. We can take it even a step further and only allow email addresses from specific domains, i.e., we can restrict providers of so-called throwaway emails. Email is pretty shallow collateral, esp if you actually allow email providers which are materially useful to people who are trying to protect their privacy. Allowing e.g. only email providers which require SMS binding, for example, would be pretty terrible... This is doubly so because the relationship is discoverable: e.g. you only really wanted to use the email to provide scarcity but because it was provided it could be used to deanonymize the users. (Even if you intentionally didn't log the email-user mapping, it would end up being deanonymized-by-time in database backups; or could be secretly logged at any time, e.g. via compromised staff) FAR better than this can be done without much more work. Digging up an old proposal of mine… A proposal for more equitable access to ipblock-exempt. In the Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR thread on wikitech-l[http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-December/073764.html] the issue of being able to edit Wikipedia via TOR was highlighted. Some people appear to have mistaken this thread as being specifically about Jake. This isn't so— Jake is technologically sophisticated and has access to many technical and social resource. Jake-the-person can edit Wikipedia, with suitable effort. But Jake-as-a-proxy-for-other-tor-users has a much harder time. Ipblock-exempt as implemented today doesn't— as demonstrated [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-December/073773.html] —even work for Jake. It certainly doesn't work for more typical users. Many people believe that Wikipedia has become so socially important that being able to edit it— even if just to leave talk page comments— is an essential part of participating in worldwide society. Unfortunately, not all people are equally free and some can only access Wikipedia via anti-censorship technology or can only speak without fear of retaliation via anonymity technology. Wikipedia must balance the interests of preventing abuse and enabling the sharing of knowledge. Only so much can be accomplished by prohibiting access to tor entirely: Miscreants can and do use paid VPNs and compromised hosts to evade blocks on a constant basis. Ironically, abusive users who are unconcerned about breaking the law have an easier time editing Wikipedia then people simple concerned with unlawful surveillance. That isn't a balance. In order to better balance these interests, I propose the following technical improvement: A new special page should be added with a form which takes an unblocked username and which accepts a base64 encoded message which contains a random serial number and a RSA digital signature with a well known Wikimedia controlled private key, we'll call this message an exemption token. If the signature passes and the serial number has never been seen before, the serial number is saved, and Ipblock-exempt is set on the account. Additionally, the online donation process is updated with some client side JS so that for every $10 donated the client picks a random value, cryptographically blinds the random value [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_signature#Blind_RSA_signatures.5B2.5D:235], and submits the blinded values along with the donation. When the donation is successful, the donation server signs the blinded values and returns them and the clients unblind them and present the messages to the users. [RSA blinding is no more complicated to implement than RSA signing in general. It requires a modular exponentiation and multiply and a modular inversion] The donor is free to save the messages, give them out to friends, or press some button to give them to the tor project. Each message entitles one account to be exempted, and Wikimedia is unable to associate donations with accounts due to the blinding. Finally, the block notice should direct people to a page with instructions on obtaining exemption tokens. This process would provide a guaranteed bound on the amount of abusive use of ipblock-exempt.
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On 12/30/2013 09:48 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: This isn't perfect— it creates a bias towards people in wealthier nations which can afford the tokens, but most people don't need their tokens and so it would be reasonable to expect substantial token charity to exist. Your scheme has thought provoking aspects, and is well-considered, but fails on that premise. Even if only a significant fraction of token charity was used for abuse, donors will quickly vanish (and I predict it would be the /vast/ majority in practice). This becomes, in effect, a pay-to-get-an-untracable-sockpuppet system, and will not generally help those people who would need TOR the most. -- Marc ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Gregory Maxwell gmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Digging up an old proposal of mine… Relevant: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3729#c3 I've attempted implementing this proposal before (about a year ago). The inherent issue, though, is that unless you make is so that each account can get one and only one token, you're not actually solving the problem: making sure Tor users have a one-to-one relation to a real IP address (or collateral, as Chris calls it). Also, I don't know the specifics, but the fundraising team has a whole bunch of requirements they go through in order to be certified for security and whatnot (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). They have a very strict set of software policies they must follow. Implementing a system like this to work with donations would be extraordinarily difficult, if it's even possible. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
On Dec 30, 2013 10:58 PM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: Implementing a system like this to work with donations would be extraordinarily difficult, if it's even possible. I don't think that's true. Given a reference implementation of a generic blinding service, I think it should be easier to implement than to decide whether or not to implement. -Jeremy ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Jake requests enabling access and edit access to Wikipedia via TOR
Please can you discuss it on the bugzilla https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59146 where it can better be tracked ? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
