Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Zack, WISPA is a trade organization...if you care what it says, then join. It is not a business (I'll shop there if you offer better customer service), it is not a gym member (I'll join if you get this piece of equipment), it is a trade organization. It is member run, as all trade organizations are. In other words, to influence it, you have to be 1. a member or 2. a LARGE external entity that is in a position to influence such things (ie the government). I'll also say, from experience with these sorts of organizations the money is irrelevant. If you are a WISP, then you should be on WISPA. Period. In general, you should join every and all available legitimate trade and business organizations--it is the cheapest way to give your company a degree of legitimacy as a startup. The question isn't a matter of money (if you have been in business longer than 6 months, definitely a year, and can't find the couple of hundred for this, then you REALLY should examine your business model) It is a matter of time...trade organizations are member run and are not necessarily democratic in a traditional sense (one member, one vote). They are usually democratic in a merit-based sense...whoever is willing to put forth the time and effort and steer stuff in the appropriate direction, however, heckling from the peanut gallery (or, in your case, from outside the stadium) is often ignored. If you want WISPA to publish a position, join, DO WORK (not talk), and you'd be surprised at what you get. This is how trade organizations run...and, regardless of what your business is, they all run the same. The people who drive the bus determine where it goes... BTW, I did not name the discussion a 12 year old level because of the content in it, but because of the lack thereof. I called it that because it quickly degenerated from a discussion that, while misguided in my mind, originated as a call for an official WISPA policy of FCC certification into a stupid chest-thumping exercise revolving around pointing fingers at who is compliant and who is not...as continues to come up again and again and again. I don't recall that you were necessarily involved in that, so no need to feel extra insulted this morning. It is not smart to discuss matters of legal compliance on a public forum. Period. You do not air your industry's dirty laundry in public... it is unprofessional and is pretty much a no-no in any industry except, apparently, among certain members of the independent WISP community. Can you imagine presidents/CEOs of manufacturing companies airing on a public listserv who was not following EPA regulations? Care to also publish lists of who took questionable deductions on their IRS filings? Where does this stop -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 9/3/07, Zack Kneisley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John, List.. anyone else really. I was trying not to get into a discussion at a 12 year old level. I merely support anyone who feels that they want to change something, through a structured method. Although I agree on this particular issue, making a statement look at our code of ethics does not accomplish that Ralph requested. Is there no structure in WISPA? Is there no means to petition an organization that supposedly represents all wisps to entertain the mans request? Is there no sturcture in WISPA that is aimed towards ratifying or creating a documents. I think what it comes down to is a few simple questions. Does a member of WISPA have the right to request such a public stance? Does WISPA have a means of debation these requests? Is there even a process in place that could lead to a document such as Ralph requested? If WISPA is not open to have a democratic way to represent the individual wisps, then this whole debate has no merit. If an individual that comes to the table with an idea, getys shutout by one person What type of organization is WISPA. I've thought of joining WISPA on several occasions, but I have yet to see it as an organization for WISPS, after all, given this thread, it doesn't seem that there is not any self governing process to ask for anything. Unless I'm seriously missing something, there are no processes in place that allow a member or non member to bring a topic to the table, and for it to be considered as an action that WISPA should take. To myself, WISPA looks like an organization controlled by a handful of individuals, not by the WISPS it is supposed to, in its own Code of Ethecs Attempt to represent. WISPA's Goals see:http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=6 6. Political lobbying group – Unified voice for the WISP industry How can this be acheived when the discussion turns to name calling and comparing the thoughts of others to 12 year olds. ** WISPA, at least make an official statement to Ralph. Either, stating that WISPA, (not John), believes that WISPA' ethics statement achieves the same goals as Ralphs
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Part-15 used to do the same things WISPA does. However, I think most of the people with Part-15 that did this left to form WISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 12:55 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] In support of legal operation See inline comments please Behalf Of Zack Kneisley John, List.. anyone else really. I was trying not to get into a discussion at a 12 year old level. I merely support anyone who feels that they want to change something, through a structured method. Although I agree on this particular issue, making a statement look at our code of ethics does not accomplish that Ralph requested. [Mac says] I think our Code of Ethics states precisely what Ralph was looking for. He was looking for something that states WISPA's position on certified -vs- non certified gear I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules and if our Code of Ethics aren't in black and white for all to see then I will see if we can get them enlarged. I don't think it can be more readily apparent than that. Producing a paper would be a total waste of time imho. If you have trouble ciphering what we have - -another one is not going to clarify it any better. Is there no structure in WISPA? Is there no means to petition an organization that supposedly represents all wisps to entertain the mans request? Is there no sturcture in WISPA that is aimed towards ratifying or creating a documents. [Mac says] I have yet to understand what anyone needs that we haven't already made available. Our stand is in our Code of Ethics. I think what it comes down to is a few simple questions. Does a member of WISPA have the right to request such a public stance? Does WISPA have a means of debation these requests? Is there even a process in place that could lead to a document such as [Mac says] See above and yes. We are here for all WISPs. That means those that are c0mpletely illegal as well as the legal and those of us who are somewhere in-between or caught in the middle. If the statement that you are looking for from WISPA is to state that you have to be 100% legal or you can't be a member of the organization - - that will never happen, That would be like telling us sinners that we aren't welcome at church. We are a lobbying organization and we are here to lobby whoever we can to make the changes that we see needed to make our jobs as WISPs more successful. We have never had anyone to step up to the plate for us like we do at WISPA. No one has ever presented anything to the FCC on your (and every other WISP) behalf, but WISPA. We have made many trips to DC right out of our own back pockets because it affects us too. The truth of the matter is that the more of us there are all gathered under one umbrella - - the louder our voice in DC and the bigger impact we will have on this industry. We have the opportunity to shape it into a more formidable playing field for the mom pop shop that so many of us are today. We are not a police agency and we are not a reporting agency. If you aren't filling out your form 477 then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to do so. If you aren't running FCC certified gear then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to get working on that too. If you choose not to fill out your form 477 then we will attempt to educate you as to why you need to be doing this. If you aren't using FCC certified gear then we will attempt to educate you as to your advantage of following through with this task as well. We are friends with the FCC, FBI, Homeland Security as well with our individual Congressmen and Senators. We are on the same side they are and are all about being legal, promoting legal gear and being professionals at what we do. I have yet to figure out where anyone came up with the idea that we were anything different than that!! That's all I have to say about that! :-) (Forest - Forest Gump) Mac Dearman Ralph requested? If WISPA is not open to have a democratic way to represent the individual wisps, then this whole debate has no merit. If an individual that comes to the table with an idea, getys shutout by one person What type of organization is WISPA. I've thought of joining WISPA on several occasions, but I have yet to see it as an organization for WISPS, after all, given this thread, it doesn't seem that there is not any self governing process to ask for anything. Unless I'm seriously missing something, there are no processes in place that allow a member or non member to bring a topic to the table, and for it to be considered as an action that WISPA should take. To myself, WISPA looks like an organization controlled by a handful of individuals, not by the WISPS
RE: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Zack and Ralph, The WISPA Board encourages all members to help develop our Association. As you know the WISPA Board is made up of WISP Operators just like yourself and I'm sure you know how precious our time is. When we go to the FCC with an idea, we have to write a document requesting a change in policy. The FCC is not going to do our job for us. I suggest you will both be much more successful in your pleas for a Policy Stance Doctrine on the use of FCC certified equipment, if you type a formal request and suggested text for this stance and submit it to the board for either a Board vote or a Member vote. Respectfully, Rick Harnish -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zack Kneisley Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation John, List.. anyone else really. I was trying not to get into a discussion at a 12 year old level. I merely support anyone who feels that they want to change something, through a structured method. Although I agree on this particular issue, making a statement look at our code of ethics does not accomplish that Ralph requested. Is there no structure in WISPA? Is there no means to petition an organization that supposedly represents all wisps to entertain the mans request? Is there no sturcture in WISPA that is aimed towards ratifying or creating a documents. I think what it comes down to is a few simple questions. Does a member of WISPA have the right to request such a public stance? Does WISPA have a means of debation these requests? Is there even a process in place that could lead to a document such as Ralph requested? If WISPA is not open to have a democratic way to represent the individual wisps, then this whole debate has no merit. If an individual that comes to the table with an idea, getys shutout by one person What type of organization is WISPA. I've thought of joining WISPA on several occasions, but I have yet to see it as an organization for WISPS, after all, given this thread, it doesn't seem that there is not any self governing process to ask for anything. Unless I'm seriously missing something, there are no processes in place that allow a member or non member to bring a topic to the table, and for it to be considered as an action that WISPA should take. To myself, WISPA looks like an organization controlled by a handful of individuals, not by the WISPS it is supposed to, in its own Code of Ethecs Attempt to represent. WISPA's Goals see:http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=6 6. Political lobbying group – Unified voice for the WISP industry How can this be acheived when the discussion turns to name calling and comparing the thoughts of others to 12 year olds. ** WISPA, at least make an official statement to Ralph. Either, stating that WISPA, (not John), believes that WISPA' ethics statement achieves the same goals as Ralphs request, or, that WISPA is just plain rejecting the idea - with an explanation why.. ** Now, can you understand why their are people that would passionately get behind WISPA, if only an adult discussion, debate, and decision be made. Where is the leadership that makes these calls.. who makes these decisions? I'm sorry for obvious grammatical mistakes and typos, 4:00 AM comes fast. Zack ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Part-15 did NOT do the same things WISPA does. Part-15 lead it's membership to believe it was for the INDUSTRY when all Part-15 did was to line it's own pockets for PERSONAL GAIN. I do not see the same thing here. JohnnyO - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Part-15 used to do the same things WISPA does. However, I think most of the people with Part-15 that did this left to form WISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 12:55 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] In support of legal operation See inline comments please Behalf Of Zack Kneisley John, List.. anyone else really. I was trying not to get into a discussion at a 12 year old level. I merely support anyone who feels that they want to change something, through a structured method. Although I agree on this particular issue, making a statement look at our code of ethics does not accomplish that Ralph requested. [Mac says] I think our Code of Ethics states precisely what Ralph was looking for. He was looking for something that states WISPA's position on certified -vs- non certified gear I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules and if our Code of Ethics aren't in black and white for all to see then I will see if we can get them enlarged. I don't think it can be more readily apparent than that. Producing a paper would be a total waste of time imho. If you have trouble ciphering what we have - -another one is not going to clarify it any better. Is there no structure in WISPA? Is there no means to petition an organization that supposedly represents all wisps to entertain the mans request? Is there no sturcture in WISPA that is aimed towards ratifying or creating a documents. [Mac says] I have yet to understand what anyone needs that we haven't already made available. Our stand is in our Code of Ethics. I think what it comes down to is a few simple questions. Does a member of WISPA have the right to request such a public stance? Does WISPA have a means of debation these requests? Is there even a process in place that could lead to a document such as [Mac says] See above and yes. We are here for all WISPs. That means those that are c0mpletely illegal as well as the legal and those of us who are somewhere in-between or caught in the middle. If the statement that you are looking for from WISPA is to state that you have to be 100% legal or you can't be a member of the organization - - that will never happen, That would be like telling us sinners that we aren't welcome at church. We are a lobbying organization and we are here to lobby whoever we can to make the changes that we see needed to make our jobs as WISPs more successful. We have never had anyone to step up to the plate for us like we do at WISPA. No one has ever presented anything to the FCC on your (and every other WISP) behalf, but WISPA. We have made many trips to DC right out of our own back pockets because it affects us too. The truth of the matter is that the more of us there are all gathered under one umbrella - - the louder our voice in DC and the bigger impact we will have on this industry. We have the opportunity to shape it into a more formidable playing field for the mom pop shop that so many of us are today. We are not a police agency and we are not a reporting agency. If you aren't filling out your form 477 then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to do so. If you aren't running FCC certified gear then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to get working on that too. If you choose not to fill out your form 477 then we will attempt to educate you as to why you need to be doing this. If you aren't using FCC certified gear then we will attempt to educate you as to your advantage of following through with this task as well. We are friends with the FCC, FBI, Homeland Security as well with our individual Congressmen and Senators. We are on the same side they are and are all about being legal, promoting legal gear and being professionals at what we do. I have yet to figure out where anyone came up with the idea that we were anything different than that!! That's all I have to say about that! :-) (Forest - Forest Gump) Mac Dearman Ralph requested? If WISPA is not open to have a democratic way to represent the individual wisps, then this whole debate has no merit. If an individual that comes to the table with an idea, getys shutout by one person What type of organization is WISPA. I've thought of joining WISPA on several occasions, but I have yet to see
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
This was in reference to the FCC trips, which I certainly remember from before WISPA was formed. I don't really see either orgranization doing anything else. Not that I'm saying they should be doing something else, but that's all I see that either organization has done (or is doing). - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Part-15 did NOT do the same things WISPA does. Part-15 lead it's membership to believe it was for the INDUSTRY when all Part-15 did was to line it's own pockets for PERSONAL GAIN. I do not see the same thing here. JohnnyO - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Part-15 used to do the same things WISPA does. However, I think most of the people with Part-15 that did this left to form WISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 12:55 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] In support of legal operation See inline comments please Behalf Of Zack Kneisley John, List.. anyone else really. I was trying not to get into a discussion at a 12 year old level. I merely support anyone who feels that they want to change something, through a structured method. Although I agree on this particular issue, making a statement look at our code of ethics does not accomplish that Ralph requested. [Mac says] I think our Code of Ethics states precisely what Ralph was looking for. He was looking for something that states WISPA's position on certified -vs- non certified gear I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules and if our Code of Ethics aren't in black and white for all to see then I will see if we can get them enlarged. I don't think it can be more readily apparent than that. Producing a paper would be a total waste of time imho. If you have trouble ciphering what we have - -another one is not going to clarify it any better. Is there no structure in WISPA? Is there no means to petition an organization that supposedly represents all wisps to entertain the mans request? Is there no sturcture in WISPA that is aimed towards ratifying or creating a documents. [Mac says] I have yet to understand what anyone needs that we haven't already made available. Our stand is in our Code of Ethics. I think what it comes down to is a few simple questions. Does a member of WISPA have the right to request such a public stance? Does WISPA have a means of debation these requests? Is there even a process in place that could lead to a document such as [Mac says] See above and yes. We are here for all WISPs. That means those that are c0mpletely illegal as well as the legal and those of us who are somewhere in-between or caught in the middle. If the statement that you are looking for from WISPA is to state that you have to be 100% legal or you can't be a member of the organization - - that will never happen, That would be like telling us sinners that we aren't welcome at church. We are a lobbying organization and we are here to lobby whoever we can to make the changes that we see needed to make our jobs as WISPs more successful. We have never had anyone to step up to the plate for us like we do at WISPA. No one has ever presented anything to the FCC on your (and every other WISP) behalf, but WISPA. We have made many trips to DC right out of our own back pockets because it affects us too. The truth of the matter is that the more of us there are all gathered under one umbrella - - the louder our voice in DC and the bigger impact we will have on this industry. We have the opportunity to shape it into a more formidable playing field for the mom pop shop that so many of us are today. We are not a police agency and we are not a reporting agency. If you aren't filling out your form 477 then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to do so. If you aren't running FCC certified gear then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to get working on that too. If you choose not to fill out your form 477 then we will attempt to educate you as to why you need to be doing this. If you aren't using FCC certified gear then we will attempt to educate you as to your advantage of following through with this task as well. We are friends with the FCC, FBI, Homeland Security as well with our individual Congressmen and Senators. We are on the same side they are and are all about being legal, promoting legal
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
All of you are worse than a bunch of 12 year old school girls--on both sides. Give it a rest already. Pretty much, the arguments for being certified speak for themselves. Some people make what they feel are educated business decisions to do otherwise. Fine for them. It's not the end of the world, and something that most business do (large business often calculate the cost of compliance versus the risk/cost of non-compliance and formally decide, on many occasions, to be non-compliant.) It is a standard business practice, some of you like it, some of you don't, but really, knock it off already. Please. This is a public listserv...if you are non-compliant and feel that it is a good business decision to run that risk, than so be it, but have the sense to shut up about it and minimize your risk. If you are compliant and worried about your industry reputation, then have sense also to shut up about it as well and don't draw any more attention to the matter... There's nothing to be gained here so, again, move on...it's a lose, lose situation for everyone involved in these threads. I understand there is a closed, members-only list. If you are truly concerned about the reputation of WISPA and feel this is important to WISPA's reputation and efficacy as an organization, than move this junk there... In the end, the FCC will care a lot more about you if you represent more customers (you know, the real reason why they pay more attention to the big guys than little guys). Large successful business get a lot more attention from policy makes than small marginal shops. Make the decision to be compliant or not and shut up about it and move on. It's not that important. Stop stroking your egos about following the moral high ground through upstanding citizenry or following the moral high ground of doing the right regardless of a bunch of stupid bureaucratic regulations. I think all of you have already made the decision, one way or another, no one is going to convince any one of you of anything. Move on. Spend your time building better networks and getting more customers...get yourself market share, and you'll get the attention, respect of the FCC and, far more importantly, you'll make more money (which, after all, I assume you're wanting). Talk about ways to do that. Talk about ways to get customers. Talk about ways to deliver uptime that will keep the customers. Talk about ways to deliver more bandwidth and better quality of service to your customers. Talk about sharing costs on bandwidth, email systems, etc... to cut costs and increase profits. Talk about your navel hair for all I care--it would be a more productive thread. I think I've been on this list for about three months, have seen this thread at least 10 times repeating the same pride-filled nonsense on both sides. It's embarrassing to watch, and the tenth time doesn't produce anything that the first nine did except give some people a forum to pat themselves on the back and talk about how their way is the best route to take. If you want to make WISPA a respectable organization, spend your time getting customers and building better networks, not prattling on and on about LEGAL MATTERS IN A PUBLIC FORUM... -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 9/3/07, J. Vogel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It doesn't really help, when attempting to clarify a misunderstood or confusing statement, to say the same thing over again. You asserted, in your posting, that the position of WISPA as stated in the code of ethics, did not meet the requirement in your opinion of being the official stance of WISPA. You are the one who should clarify just exactly how the official written statement contained in the code of ethics falls short of meeting the bar. If the code of ethics statement cannot be taken to be the official postion of WISPA,... 1. why not?, 2. what would you propose that would be adequate in your view? John Zack Kneisley wrote: Please expand upon this statement... Because you agree that WISPA supports only certified systems through a ethics statement, does not conclude that WISPA as a professional organization supports the use of only certified systems. I do not see how this statement makes any sense. The logic loses me about the does not conclude part. John Ok, I'll be happy to. I'm sorry if the logic in my statement is confusing. - 1.Because you agree that WISPA supports only certified systems through ethics statement, ***You have stated that WISPA, through its code of ethics, somehow assumes the stance that it does not condone the use of non-ceritified systems.. correct? 2.does not conclude that WISPA as a professional organization supports the use of only certified systems. ***This does not mean that WISPA take the same position. - I appoligize if I confused you. Is this the official opinion of WISPA?
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Amen, brother. Clint Ricker wrote: All of you are worse than a bunch of 12 year old school girls--on both sides. Give it a rest already. Pretty much, the arguments for being certified speak for themselves. Some people make what they feel are educated business decisions to do otherwise. Fine for them. It's not the end of the world, and something that most business do (large business often calculate the cost of compliance versus the risk/cost of non-compliance and formally decide, on many occasions, to be non-compliant.) It is a standard business practice, some of you like it, some of you don't, but really, knock it off already. Please. This is a public listserv...if you are non-compliant and feel that it is a good business decision to run that risk, than so be it, but have the sense to shut up about it and minimize your risk. If you are compliant and worried about your industry reputation, then have sense also to shut up about it as well and don't draw any more attention to the matter... There's nothing to be gained here so, again, move on...it's a lose, lose situation for everyone involved in these threads. I understand there is a closed, members-only list. If you are truly concerned about the reputation of WISPA and feel this is important to WISPA's reputation and efficacy as an organization, than move this junk there... In the end, the FCC will care a lot more about you if you represent more customers (you know, the real reason why they pay more attention to the big guys than little guys). Large successful business get a lot more attention from policy makes than small marginal shops. Make the decision to be compliant or not and shut up about it and move on. It's not that important. Stop stroking your egos about following the moral high ground through upstanding citizenry or following the moral high ground of doing the right regardless of a bunch of stupid bureaucratic regulations. I think all of you have already made the decision, one way or another, no one is going to convince any one of you of anything. Move on. Spend your time building better networks and getting more customers...get yourself market share, and you'll get the attention, respect of the FCC and, far more importantly, you'll make more money (which, after all, I assume you're wanting). Talk about ways to do that. Talk about ways to get customers. Talk about ways to deliver uptime that will keep the customers. Talk about ways to deliver more bandwidth and better quality of service to your customers. Talk about sharing costs on bandwidth, email systems, etc... to cut costs and increase profits. Talk about your navel hair for all I care--it would be a more productive thread. I think I've been on this list for about three months, have seen this thread at least 10 times repeating the same pride-filled nonsense on both sides. It's embarrassing to watch, and the tenth time doesn't produce anything that the first nine did except give some people a forum to pat themselves on the back and talk about how their way is the best route to take. If you want to make WISPA a respectable organization, spend your time getting customers and building better networks, not prattling on and on about LEGAL MATTERS IN A PUBLIC FORUM... -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies pruned -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
We've already done that Ralph. Have you read this yet? http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=3 laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 5:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] In support of legal operation I appreciate what several WISPA folks are doing to try to get more latitude in equipment/antenna matching, and as a full Principal WISPA member, I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules. It needs to be done now. Actually showing we are paying more than lip service to the current regulations and officially Supporting legal operation may go a long way towards building better credibility with the FCC AS well as with the rest of the wireless industry. Is WISPA up to the challege of setting the precedent. Ralph Brightlan.net North Georgia Broadband Without The Wires ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
He says it all of the time. And just did so again. Actually showing we are paying more than lip service to the current regulations and officially Supporting legal operation may go a long way towards building better credibility with the FCC AS well as with the rest of the wireless industry. Is WISPA up to the challenge of setting the precedent. If that's not saying, again, that WISPA is on the wrong side of the obey the law line I don't know what is. I'm with John. NO one in WISPA leadership has said that people should do anything other than obey the law. HOWEVER, there is a reality out there that the law, as written, doesn't work and needs to be changed. Laws are NOT always right, effective or even good. We want to change things to make them better/easier for our industry. Why anyone would fight that goal is beyond me. The only two reasons that come to my mind are that the guy isn't who he says he is and he's actually working to destroy WISPs and WISPA, or he just doesn't understand what we're trying to do. marlon - Original Message - From: Zack Kneisley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation John I don't see where Ralph said that WISPA supports breaking the law, I'm not sure where that could have been derived from. I feel that Ralphs statement was one of frustration of WISPA not publicly supporting a specific stance on the issue of non-certified systems. To think that open dialog somehow diminishes WISPA's reputation is just absurd. Because you agree that WISPA supports only certified systems through a ethics statement, does not conclude that WISPA as a professional organization supports the use of only certified systems. I don't believe that you are in a position to publicly announce such claims of what WISPA does or does not support. To the contrary, I think your personal opinion does diminish the reputation and credibility of WISPA in accordance to its own Code of Ethics. I hope that your statement is not one that represents what WISPA as a professional organization believes. Zack On 9/2/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see in the WISPA Code of Ethics this line: e) Use proper diligence to ensure that all materials on their networks are restricted in accordance with applicable laws, regulations and the tenets of reasonable precaution. If this needs to be worded differently then maybe this would suffice? I do not know how many times we can state specifically that WISPA does not support breaking laws and that while we do wish to see some changes to some laws we support following the laws. I am getting a bit tired of being told by many here that we support breaking the laws when we DO NOT. Part of the WISPA Code of Ethics states: ARTICLE II We will conduct ourselves in such a manner as to bring credit to our industry and enhance its reputation. With so many people coming on here saying over and over that WISPA is trying to support breaking the laws we are not following this code. We are doing damage to our industry when we state these things and it is not helping the effort. If our Code of Ethics needs some work then say so but stop calling us criminals on a public list server. I am tiring of it and I am sure I am not alone. John Scrivner Zack Kneisley wrote: Ralph As only a list member, wireless operator and entrepreneur, I support and encorage your request. WISPA, should publicly support issues, especially those that are law. This specific position should not be something that requires debate. I hope this request will open a dialog of democratic, representative, self-governing action of WISPA in general. WISPA taking a public position would make paid membership more attractive to myself, and many others I associate with. Zack Kneisley On 9/1/07, Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate what several WISPA folks are doing to try to get more latitude in equipment/antenna matching, and as a full Principal WISPA member, I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules. It needs to be done now. Actually showing we are paying more than lip service to the current regulations and officially Supporting legal operation may go a long way towards building better credibility with the FCC AS well as with the rest of the wireless industry. Is WISPA up to the challege of setting the precedent. Ralph Brightlan.net North Georgia Broadband Without The Wires ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Ralph You see the industry through a very narrow set of blinders. There is a whole lot more players than you or I. I'm not impressed with any YDI certified system that you think you may have, I too have certified YDI systems still in place and YDI sold me and lots of others quite a bit of stuff that was maybe certifiable at best. Then there's the YDI certified system that Joe D'Andrea had that turned out to NOT be certified. Anyone else remember that fiasco? How about this one. The FCC field rep that took Joe to task and wrote him the non compliance letter (or whatever it was all those years ago) got called on the carpet about that. Who was at the FCC when those guys found out about what had happened out in the field and hit the roof? I can't remember who the parties were. I recall one wisp who had a supposed YDI certified system who found out otherwise. See above. I'm also not impressed with any radio system who certifies themselves. Why? It's a part of the rules Any manufacturer can certify almost any antenna symply by adding the part number to their manual. Or putting a note in a file at the office, never quite figured out exactly what's involved in a class 1 permissive change. It's none of your business who the new certified systems are because it's trade secrets that have been entrusted with some. I'm not going to spoil anyones financial investment into new products by pre-announcing anything, but it should be no surprise when it is announced. If you want to know, dig around yourself. One thing you have been successful at is ending most discussions of what people are using, their accomplishments or plain old advice on this list. I bet a lot of guys are scared with your FCC insinuations not to bother posting anything to this list. Yeah. So much for ISM. industry SCIENTIFIC medical Last I knew, science was at least part innovation. That is the destructiveness of your actions, and others. WISPA is NOT an association for a few wisps, its for ALL wisps, that means any wisp, those certified and those not. If you want an association for those 100% certified, start your own trade org. Last I knew Brett Glass was still looking for membership! ducking And if the FCC was serious about killing the non certified stuff, they would have gone after a couple of manufacturers who's names are on everyones tongues and do business as US companies right here in the USA for many years. They did crack down on the amp manufacturers that loved to sell 1 watt amps and 15 dB antennas. They didn't make the guys stop selling amps, but did greatly slow down the bad advice of over powered systems. Seeing they aren't shutting down the wireless companies making and selling this stuff, I can only assume they ain't as worried as you make it out to be. They are probably delighted that those who take innovation, mold it together with ingenuity, and start serving the under served are doing a good job. Doing just what the feds want, getting broadband to the under served, which usually means the poor communities that are left out because of lack of funding. The ugly truth is that the FCC loves us. With all our problems. We're like a teenager. We don't always do the right thing but our hearts are in the right place and we're out there helping little ol' ladies across the digital divide. You should consider though, that what goes on in someone else's back yard just is NOT any of YOUR beeswax. It's perfectly OK to put forth an opinion. It's also OK to ask about percived problems. I for one would sure apreciate accuracy though. This I'm better than you cause none of you know how to obey the law think is getting very old. marlon Ralph wrote: Responses inline... Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? Because you are our industry organization What business is it of others what anyone else does? Anyone who wants to see the industry operate in a proper and legal manner. If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. Good idea- let's ask them. I will draft my request this week. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Bravo to them! Who are they? Just this past week I was talking to an antenna manufacturer who told me his antennas were being certified with new manufacturers that proviously were uncertified. Ditto WISPA's goal is to see all wisps succeed. This division a couple of you are creating, is fairly destructive to any co-operative effort. When the lines get drawn and people placed on one side
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Scott, the problem is we're a trade org. We have NO enforcement authority. What we CAN and DO try to do is make sure that people know and understand what the rules are. If they, as you, have built systems outside of the letter of the law we can help you get it back in line should YOU choose to do so. My system isn't perfect either. I'm fixing that problem as I can afford to. And I'm fixing it in ways that don't cost me more money. I push, very hard, on my manufacturers to make sure that they give me the best gear for the money AND certify it in the configurations that *I* need to use. I'm working on changing rules that don't work for my business. So I have a three pronged approach to the certification issue. I believe that MOST real WISPs out there follow the same path as me. They build out with what they can afford and what works best, in that order. The fill the needs of the people around them. They don't do things that are likely to get them in trouble. If you have a problem with certified systems compliance take it up with the FCC. THEY are the cops here. Be a good citizen and turn in everyone in your industry. Just make sure you know for sure that people are not in compliance and that you are. There would be nothing worse than the situation coming back to bite you in the behind. I'll tell you what'll happen when you make that phone call to the FCC and tell them that you know of WISPs that are within EIRP but not in compliance. The same thing that happens when you are out riding with the cops and a guy goes by 5 mph over the speed limit. No one does a thing. The law is there to prevent harm to innocent people. No one follows them all perfectly, and no one is expected to. If you want something like that go live where the state runs everything. No wait, those are often the MOST corrupt places to be. Oh never mind. This is like arguing with my friend Norman. He doesn't care what the topic is, he'll take the other side just to see how mad he can make you. He enjoys the game and you just end up with a head ache. There's NEVER a compromise or a solution cause all he wants is something to argue about. marlon - Original Message - From: Scott Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation I am not sure that a position paper is required, but I will offer a few opinions based on some of what I have seen this post generate in responses. Though I am not currently 100% compliant with the FCC rules nor a member, I wish I were both. Even after 1 full year of research into what I would need to do to start a WISP, I did not realize that all the equipment must be certified. To be honest, to some degree I figured if were sold in the USA, it was OK to use it. I do follow the maximum signal levels, stay on the right channels, etc. To the best of my knowledge the only thing I am in violation of is the certified equipment requirement. Even with my current situation, I would not support an organization that did anything other than require members to be operating legally. So, at this time it is a good thing I am not a member of WISPA, because when I join, I want to comply with all of the bylaws, etc. So I am 100% behind Ralph wanting to be assured that WISPA is all about being legal. I also agree with Ralph's opening comment about getting more latitude in equipment matching. This is what I would expect a professional organization to do; encourage all members to follow the rules AND work with the governing bodies to change those rules that are a hindrance to the growth of individual WISPs and to the industry as a whole. I think John Scrivner found the answer in the 2 sections of the by-laws he quoted. WISPA is about the business of promote the growth of all players in the industry. My take on the direction the WISPA board generally takes is just what I stated above: an effort to help those of us that are not yet fully legal get there, both by educating us to the laws and rules and how to abide them as well as working to change those rules that can be changed in our favor without negatively impacting other industries that use the same airwaves. As for the original post creating division, I do not see it that way. Maybe I would if all I cared about was making $$ regardless of what the rules are. It seems to me that the only way this would cause me to feel cut-off from WISPA is if I were operating illegally and wanted to be able to continue to do so without someone calling me to move in the right direction. With Ralph's post, I actually feel more drawn to WISPA, because here is a group that is all about helping me to be successful within the constraints of the laws and rules of the land. So, to the WISPA Board, please keep up the good work and continue to show us how to operate our WISPs legally
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
John, List.. anyone else really. I was trying not to get into a discussion at a 12 year old level. I merely support anyone who feels that they want to change something, through a structured method. Although I agree on this particular issue, making a statement look at our code of ethics does not accomplish that Ralph requested. Is there no structure in WISPA? Is there no means to petition an organization that supposedly represents all wisps to entertain the mans request? Is there no sturcture in WISPA that is aimed towards ratifying or creating a documents. I think what it comes down to is a few simple questions. Does a member of WISPA have the right to request such a public stance? Does WISPA have a means of debation these requests? Is there even a process in place that could lead to a document such as Ralph requested? If WISPA is not open to have a democratic way to represent the individual wisps, then this whole debate has no merit. If an individual that comes to the table with an idea, getys shutout by one person What type of organization is WISPA. I've thought of joining WISPA on several occasions, but I have yet to see it as an organization for WISPS, after all, given this thread, it doesn't seem that there is not any self governing process to ask for anything. Unless I'm seriously missing something, there are no processes in place that allow a member or non member to bring a topic to the table, and for it to be considered as an action that WISPA should take. To myself, WISPA looks like an organization controlled by a handful of individuals, not by the WISPS it is supposed to, in its own Code of Ethecs Attempt to represent. WISPA's Goals see:http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=6 6. Political lobbying group – Unified voice for the WISP industry How can this be acheived when the discussion turns to name calling and comparing the thoughts of others to 12 year olds. ** WISPA, at least make an official statement to Ralph. Either, stating that WISPA, (not John), believes that WISPA' ethics statement achieves the same goals as Ralphs request, or, that WISPA is just plain rejecting the idea - with an explanation why.. ** Now, can you understand why their are people that would passionately get behind WISPA, if only an adult discussion, debate, and decision be made. Where is the leadership that makes these calls.. who makes these decisions? I'm sorry for obvious grammatical mistakes and typos, 4:00 AM comes fast. Zack ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
See inline comments please Behalf Of Zack Kneisley John, List.. anyone else really. I was trying not to get into a discussion at a 12 year old level. I merely support anyone who feels that they want to change something, through a structured method. Although I agree on this particular issue, making a statement look at our code of ethics does not accomplish that Ralph requested. [Mac says] I think our Code of Ethics states precisely what Ralph was looking for. He was looking for something that states WISPA's position on certified -vs- non certified gear I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules and if our Code of Ethics aren't in black and white for all to see then I will see if we can get them enlarged. I don't think it can be more readily apparent than that. Producing a paper would be a total waste of time imho. If you have trouble ciphering what we have - -another one is not going to clarify it any better. Is there no structure in WISPA? Is there no means to petition an organization that supposedly represents all wisps to entertain the mans request? Is there no sturcture in WISPA that is aimed towards ratifying or creating a documents. [Mac says] I have yet to understand what anyone needs that we haven't already made available. Our stand is in our Code of Ethics. I think what it comes down to is a few simple questions. Does a member of WISPA have the right to request such a public stance? Does WISPA have a means of debation these requests? Is there even a process in place that could lead to a document such as [Mac says] See above and yes. We are here for all WISPs. That means those that are c0mpletely illegal as well as the legal and those of us who are somewhere in-between or caught in the middle. If the statement that you are looking for from WISPA is to state that you have to be 100% legal or you can't be a member of the organization - - that will never happen, That would be like telling us sinners that we aren't welcome at church. We are a lobbying organization and we are here to lobby whoever we can to make the changes that we see needed to make our jobs as WISPs more successful. We have never had anyone to step up to the plate for us like we do at WISPA. No one has ever presented anything to the FCC on your (and every other WISP) behalf, but WISPA. We have made many trips to DC right out of our own back pockets because it affects us too. The truth of the matter is that the more of us there are all gathered under one umbrella - - the louder our voice in DC and the bigger impact we will have on this industry. We have the opportunity to shape it into a more formidable playing field for the mom pop shop that so many of us are today. We are not a police agency and we are not a reporting agency. If you aren't filling out your form 477 then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to do so. If you aren't running FCC certified gear then I (and the rest of the board) will urge you to get working on that too. If you choose not to fill out your form 477 then we will attempt to educate you as to why you need to be doing this. If you aren't using FCC certified gear then we will attempt to educate you as to your advantage of following through with this task as well. We are friends with the FCC, FBI, Homeland Security as well with our individual Congressmen and Senators. We are on the same side they are and are all about being legal, promoting legal gear and being professionals at what we do. I have yet to figure out where anyone came up with the idea that we were anything different than that!! That's all I have to say about that! :-) (Forest - Forest Gump) Mac Dearman Ralph requested? If WISPA is not open to have a democratic way to represent the individual wisps, then this whole debate has no merit. If an individual that comes to the table with an idea, getys shutout by one person What type of organization is WISPA. I've thought of joining WISPA on several occasions, but I have yet to see it as an organization for WISPS, after all, given this thread, it doesn't seem that there is not any self governing process to ask for anything. Unless I'm seriously missing something, there are no processes in place that allow a member or non member to bring a topic to the table, and for it to be considered as an action that WISPA should take. To myself, WISPA looks like an organization controlled by a handful of individuals, not by the WISPS it is supposed to, in its own Code of Ethecs Attempt to represent. WISPA's Goals see:http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=6 6. Political lobbying group - Unified voice for the WISP industry How can this be acheived when the discussion turns to name calling and comparing the thoughts of others to 12 year olds. ** WISPA, at least make an
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
I see in the WISPA Code of Ethics this line: e) Use proper diligence to ensure that all materials on their networks are restricted in accordance with applicable laws, regulations and the tenets of reasonable precaution. If this needs to be worded differently then maybe this would suffice? I do not know how many times we can state specifically that WISPA does not support breaking laws and that while we do wish to see some changes to some laws we support following the laws. I am getting a bit tired of being told by many here that we support breaking the laws when we DO NOT. Part of the WISPA Code of Ethics states: ARTICLE II We will conduct ourselves in such a manner as to bring credit to our industry and enhance its reputation. With so many people coming on here saying over and over that WISPA is trying to support breaking the laws we are not following this code. We are doing damage to our industry when we state these things and it is not helping the effort. If our Code of Ethics needs some work then say so but stop calling us criminals on a public list server. I am tiring of it and I am sure I am not alone. John Scrivner Zack Kneisley wrote: Ralph As only a list member, wireless operator and entrepreneur, I support and encorage your request. WISPA, should publicly support issues, especially those that are law. This specific position should not be something that requires debate. I hope this request will open a dialog of democratic, representative, self-governing action of WISPA in general. WISPA taking a public position would make paid membership more attractive to myself, and many others I associate with. Zack Kneisley On 9/1/07, Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate what several WISPA folks are doing to try to get more latitude in equipment/antenna matching, and as a full Principal WISPA member, I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules. It needs to be done now. Actually showing we are paying more than lip service to the current regulations and officially Supporting legal operation may go a long way towards building better credibility with the FCC AS well as with the rest of the wireless industry. Is WISPA up to the challege of setting the precedent. Ralph Brightlan.net North Georgia Broadband Without The Wires ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? What business is it of others what anyone else does? If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Just this past week I was talking to an antenna manufacturer who told me his antennas were being certified with new manufacturers that proviously were uncertified. WISPA's goal is to see all wisps succeed. This division a couple of you are creating, is fairly destructive to any co-operative effort. When the lines get drawn and people placed on one side or the other, all we can end up with is some type of rivalry at best. I can understand and agree with the entire certification issue and those opinions expressed, but doing so in a manner that is destructive to some of our wisps is unacceptable. Lets look for the common good of all wisps. George ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Responses inline... Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? Because you are our industry organization What business is it of others what anyone else does? Anyone who wants to see the industry operate in a proper and legal manner. If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. Good idea- let's ask them. I will draft my request this week. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Bravo to them! Who are they? Just this past week I was talking to an antenna manufacturer who told me his antennas were being certified with new manufacturers that proviously were uncertified. Ditto WISPA's goal is to see all wisps succeed. This division a couple of you are creating, is fairly destructive to any co-operative effort. When the lines get drawn and people placed on one side or the other, all we can end up with is some type of rivalry at best. ??? Confused. Who do we want to see succeed? All WISPS, you say. Including the ones who operate illegaly? The legal ones? The ones we don't see because we look the other way? I can understand and agree with the entire certification issue and those opinions expressed, but doing so in a manner that is destructive to some of our wisps is unacceptable. Uhm.. Who's it destructive to? Oh- that's right... The ones who operate illegally. I simply asked WISPA to publish a position on illegal operation. That doesn't mean to push it off on some code of ethics. This is our organization that is supposed to further our business. I'd hate to think we were afraid to stand up for what is right. There's no sort-of pregnant, and there's no sort-of Part 15 compliant. You are or you aren't That is why this isn't debatable AT ALL! Who here is operating illegally? There's one message already posted from an operator who was bragging that he was. Who is operating legally? Who will add their company to this list? Legal Illegal --- x Brightlan ? ? The rest of you Ralph Fowler Brightlan LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 3:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? What business is it of others what anyone else does? If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Just this past week I was talking to an antenna manufacturer who told me his antennas were being certified with new manufacturers that proviously were uncertified. WISPA's goal is to see all wisps succeed. This division a couple of you are creating, is fairly destructive to any co-operative effort. When the lines get drawn and people placed on one side or the other, all we can end up with is some type of rivalry at best. I can understand and agree with the entire certification issue and those opinions expressed, but doing so in a manner that is destructive to some of our wisps is unacceptable. Lets look for the common good of all wisps. George ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Please expand upon this statement... I simply asked WISPA to publish a position on illegal operation. That doesn't mean to push it off on some code of ethics. What kind of written statement would carry more weight than the code of ethics? Please describe how any such written statement would in fact carry more weight. John Ralph wrote: Responses inline... Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? Because you are our industry organization What business is it of others what anyone else does? Anyone who wants to see the industry operate in a proper and legal manner. If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. Good idea- let's ask them. I will draft my request this week. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Bravo to them! Who are they? Just this past week I was talking to an antenna manufacturer who told me his antennas were being certified with new manufacturers that proviously were uncertified. Ditto WISPA's goal is to see all wisps succeed. This division a couple of you are creating, is fairly destructive to any co-operative effort. When the lines get drawn and people placed on one side or the other, all we can end up with is some type of rivalry at best. ??? Confused. Who do we want to see succeed? All WISPS, you say. Including the ones who operate illegaly? The legal ones? The ones we don't see because we look the other way? I can understand and agree with the entire certification issue and those opinions expressed, but doing so in a manner that is destructive to some of our wisps is unacceptable. Uhm.. Who's it destructive to? Oh- that's right... The ones who operate illegally. I simply asked WISPA to publish a position on illegal operation. That doesn't mean to push it off on some code of ethics. This is our organization that is supposed to further our business. I'd hate to think we were afraid to stand up for what is right. There's no sort-of pregnant, and there's no sort-of Part 15 compliant. You are or you aren't That is why this isn't debatable AT ALL! Who here is operating illegally? There's one message already posted from an operator who was bragging that he was. Who is operating legally? Who will add their company to this list? Legal Illegal --- x Brightlan ? ? The rest of you Ralph Fowler Brightlan LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 3:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? What business is it of others what anyone else does? If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Just this past week I was talking to an antenna manufacturer who told me his antennas were being certified with new manufacturers that proviously were uncertified. WISPA's goal is to see all wisps succeed. This division a couple of you are creating, is fairly destructive to any co-operative effort. When the lines get drawn and people placed on one side or the other, all we can end up with is some type of rivalry at best. I can understand and agree with the entire certification issue and those opinions expressed, but doing so in a manner that is destructive to some of our wisps is unacceptable. Lets look for the common good of all wisps. George ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Ralph You see the industry through a very narrow set of blinders. There is a whole lot more players than you or I. I'm not impressed with any YDI certified system that you think you may have, I too have certified YDI systems still in place and YDI sold me and lots of others quite a bit of stuff that was maybe certifiable at best. I recall one wisp who had a supposed YDI certified system who found out otherwise. I'm also not impressed with any radio system who certifies themselves. It's none of your business who the new certified systems are because it's trade secrets that have been entrusted with some. I'm not going to spoil anyones financial investment into new products by pre-announcing anything, but it should be no surprise when it is announced. If you want to know, dig around yourself. One thing you have been successful at is ending most discussions of what people are using, their accomplishments or plain old advice on this list. I bet a lot of guys are scared with your FCC insinuations not to bother posting anything to this list. That is the destructiveness of your actions, and others. WISPA is NOT an association for a few wisps, its for ALL wisps, that means any wisp, those certified and those not. If you want an association for those 100% certified, start your own trade org. And if the FCC was serious about killing the non certified stuff, they would have gone after a couple of manufacturers who's names are on everyones tongues and do business as US companies right here in the USA for many years. Seeing they aren't shutting down the wireless companies making and selling this stuff, I can only assume they ain't as worried as you make it out to be. They are probably delighted that those who take innovation, mold it together with ingenuity, and start serving the under served are doing a good job. Doing just what the feds want, getting broadband to the under served, which usually means the poor communities that are left out because of lack of funding. You should consider though, that what goes on in someone else's back yard just is NOT any of YOUR beeswax. Ralph wrote: Responses inline... Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? Because you are our industry organization What business is it of others what anyone else does? Anyone who wants to see the industry operate in a proper and legal manner. If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. Good idea- let's ask them. I will draft my request this week. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Bravo to them! Who are they? Just this past week I was talking to an antenna manufacturer who told me his antennas were being certified with new manufacturers that proviously were uncertified. Ditto WISPA's goal is to see all wisps succeed. This division a couple of you are creating, is fairly destructive to any co-operative effort. When the lines get drawn and people placed on one side or the other, all we can end up with is some type of rivalry at best. ??? Confused. Who do we want to see succeed? All WISPS, you say. Including the ones who operate illegaly? The legal ones? The ones we don't see because we look the other way? I can understand and agree with the entire certification issue and those opinions expressed, but doing so in a manner that is destructive to some of our wisps is unacceptable. Uhm.. Who's it destructive to? Oh- that's right... The ones who operate illegally. I simply asked WISPA to publish a position on illegal operation. That doesn't mean to push it off on some code of ethics. This is our organization that is supposed to further our business. I'd hate to think we were afraid to stand up for what is right. There's no sort-of pregnant, and there's no sort-of Part 15 compliant. You are or you aren't That is why this isn't debatable AT ALL! Who here is operating illegally? There's one message already posted from an operator who was bragging that he was. Who is operating legally? Who will add their company to this list? Legal Illegal --- x Brightlan ? ? The rest of you Ralph Fowler Brightlan LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 3:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? What business is it of others what anyone else does? If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. WISPA's efforts towards compliance may be slow, but there is now certified componentized systems in the pipeline from vendors who had none in the past. Just this past week I
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
George Rogato wrote: One thing you have been successful at is ending most discussions of what people are using, their accomplishments or plain old advice on this list. I bet a lot of guys are scared with your FCC insinuations not to bother posting anything to this list. I don't think you can really pin that on Ralph. What seems to be happening is that people who are stubborn with their opinions are coming up against people who disagree and can't probably debate the issue. When people can't debate properly and they disagree with someone else fallacies are often resorted to e.g. the every popular personal attack (ad hominem). That is the destructiveness of your actions, and others. I do think we are witnessing destructiveness, but I don't think it is coming from the likes of Ralph and others that are taking well reasoned positions. Regardless, of whether we agree with these positions doesn't mean they don't have merit. We should be having professional discussions where parties can state their differences and the rest of us can learn from them. We aren't seeing that. We are seeing a level of unprofessionalism that is turning people off and away. That is the destructiveness that should concern you. WISPA is NOT an association for a few wisps, its for ALL wisps, that means any wisp, those certified and those not. Logically that does not make sense. I don't see how you can knowingly operate illegally and still be in line with the code of ethics. I don't believe WISPA stands for WISPs that don't meet the code of ethics. You should consider though, that what goes on in someone else's back yard just is NOT any of YOUR beeswax. If that were only true. The reality though is that many of us have had to overcome issues of perception created by others who don't operate legitimately. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Matt Seeing you and Ralph are business constituants and shoulder to shoulder, I wouldn't expect you to stray from the party line Matt Liotta wrote: George Rogato wrote: One thing you have been successful at is ending most discussions of what people are using, their accomplishments or plain old advice on this list. I bet a lot of guys are scared with your FCC insinuations not to bother posting anything to this list. I don't think you can really pin that on Ralph. What seems to be happening is that people who are stubborn with their opinions are coming up against people who disagree and can't probably debate the issue. When people can't debate properly and they disagree with someone else fallacies are often resorted to e.g. the every popular personal attack (ad hominem). That is the destructiveness of your actions, and others. I do think we are witnessing destructiveness, but I don't think it is coming from the likes of Ralph and others that are taking well reasoned positions. Regardless, of whether we agree with these positions doesn't mean they don't have merit. We should be having professional discussions where parties can state their differences and the rest of us can learn from them. We aren't seeing that. We are seeing a level of unprofessionalism that is turning people off and away. That is the destructiveness that should concern you. WISPA is NOT an association for a few wisps, its for ALL wisps, that means any wisp, those certified and those not. Logically that does not make sense. I don't see how you can knowingly operate illegally and still be in line with the code of ethics. I don't believe WISPA stands for WISPs that don't meet the code of ethics. You should consider though, that what goes on in someone else's back yard just is NOT any of YOUR beeswax. If that were only true. The reality though is that many of us have had to overcome issues of perception created by others who don't operate legitimately. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
I gather that this is a response of the ad hominem variety Matt just predicted, but could you clarify your meaning? Aren't we all businesses (and constituents, business and otherwise)? On 9/2/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt Seeing you and Ralph are business constituants and shoulder to shoulder, I wouldn't expect you to stray from the party line -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
I am not sure that a position paper is required, but I will offer a few opinions based on some of what I have seen this post generate in responses. Though I am not currently 100% compliant with the FCC rules nor a member, I wish I were both. Even after 1 full year of research into what I would need to do to start a WISP, I did not realize that all the equipment must be certified. To be honest, to some degree I figured if were sold in the USA, it was OK to use it. I do follow the maximum signal levels, stay on the right channels, etc. To the best of my knowledge the only thing I am in violation of is the certified equipment requirement. Even with my current situation, I would not support an organization that did anything other than require members to be operating legally. So, at this time it is a good thing I am not a member of WISPA, because when I join, I want to comply with all of the bylaws, etc. So I am 100% behind Ralph wanting to be assured that WISPA is all about being legal. I also agree with Ralph's opening comment about getting more latitude in equipment matching. This is what I would expect a professional organization to do; encourage all members to follow the rules AND work with the governing bodies to change those rules that are a hindrance to the growth of individual WISPs and to the industry as a whole. I think John Scrivner found the answer in the 2 sections of the by-laws he quoted. WISPA is about the business of promote the growth of all players in the industry. My take on the direction the WISPA board generally takes is just what I stated above: an effort to help those of us that are not yet fully legal get there, both by educating us to the laws and rules and how to abide them as well as working to change those rules that can be changed in our favor without negatively impacting other industries that use the same airwaves. As for the original post creating division, I do not see it that way. Maybe I would if all I cared about was making $$ regardless of what the rules are. It seems to me that the only way this would cause me to feel cut-off from WISPA is if I were operating illegally and wanted to be able to continue to do so without someone calling me to move in the right direction. With Ralph's post, I actually feel more drawn to WISPA, because here is a group that is all about helping me to be successful within the constraints of the laws and rules of the land. So, to the WISPA Board, please keep up the good work and continue to show us how to operate our WISPs legally and successfully. Ralph wrote: I appreciate what several WISPA folks are doing to try to get more latitude in equipment/antenna matching, and as a full Principal WISPA member, I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules. It needs to be done now. Actually showing we are paying more than lip service to the current regulations and officially Supporting legal operation may go a long way towards building better credibility with the FCC AS well as with the rest of the wireless industry. Is WISPA up to the challege of setting the precedent. Ralph Brightlan.net North Georgia Broadband Without The Wires ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Please expand upon this statement... Because you agree that WISPA supports only certified systems through a ethics statement, does not conclude that WISPA as a professional organization supports the use of only certified systems. I do not see how this statement makes any sense. The logic loses me about the does not conclude part. John Ok, I'll be happy to. I'm sorry if the logic in my statement is confusing. - 1.Because you agree that WISPA supports only certified systems through ethics statement, ***You have stated that WISPA, through its code of ethics, somehow assumes the stance that it does not condone the use of non-ceritified systems.. correct? 2.does not conclude that WISPA as a professional organization supports the use of only certified systems. ***This does not mean that WISPA take the same position. - I appoligize if I confused you. Is this the official opinion of WISPA? are you making this statement on behalf of WISPA? I don't think you are. Is it WISPA's official public position that non-certified systems are not condoned because you have a code of ethics? Are you representing WISPA with your statement? John, this is not your statement to make.. Honestly, your opinion doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is WISPA's public opinion, not yours. Zack ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
George- I already listed the vendors our WISP uses, and I have never mentioned anything from YDI. I haven't a clue where you got that idea. I have never purchased a single thing from them. Again for the record: Our WISP uses Tranzeo, Canopy, Deliberant and Ligowave. All certified APs and client usits and all certified antennas. I simply said that my Orinoco card based access points were rocking along fine and that they were certified. They have internal antennas and are the ones that were on them when they were originally certified and when they were purchased. I also said I would be glad to provide the FCC type acceptance number as soon as I could get to them and read it off the bottom. As far as the obvious fact that you and others think that there are any certified Orinoco based access points, take a look inside many of the Apple Airports and you will realize that you have been wrong. I believe I have mentioned before that Matt is my upstream, just as he is for many others. What does that have to do with it? We are business acquaintances who may see each other once or twice a year and we certainly don't see eye to eye on everything, so don't believe for a second that he parrots me or I parrot him, although I am glad to see him in favor of legal operation. No one can certify themselves. They can stick the sticker on, but they have to earn the right to do that. If there are any vendors planning certified systems then its their loss if they choose to not announce it because we consumers will continue our decision making with or without them. I don't know if the FCC cares who sells uncertified equipment. The one whose neck is ultimately on the line is the one who places it into operation. I pretty much would bet money that they are not delighted that WISPS are illegally operating uncertified systems, no matter how creative. The rules are there and any ou uus can download and read them. Then we can decide to be legal or illegal. It isn't a debating point. WISPA needs to step to the table and walk the walk instead of talk the talk. The way to do it is to take a position. We are either 100% in favor of legal operation or we are against it. What are we? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 5:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation Ralph You see the industry through a very narrow set of blinders. There is a whole lot more players than you or I. I'm not impressed with any YDI certified system that you think you may have, I too have certified YDI systems still in place and YDI sold me and lots of others quite a bit of stuff that was maybe certifiable at best. I recall one wisp who had a supposed YDI certified system who found out otherwise. I'm also not impressed with any radio system who certifies themselves. It's none of your business who the new certified systems are because it's trade secrets that have been entrusted with some. I'm not going to spoil anyones financial investment into new products by pre-announcing anything, but it should be no surprise when it is announced. If you want to know, dig around yourself. One thing you have been successful at is ending most discussions of what people are using, their accomplishments or plain old advice on this list. I bet a lot of guys are scared with your FCC insinuations not to bother posting anything to this list. That is the destructiveness of your actions, and others. WISPA is NOT an association for a few wisps, its for ALL wisps, that means any wisp, those certified and those not. If you want an association for those 100% certified, start your own trade org. And if the FCC was serious about killing the non certified stuff, they would have gone after a couple of manufacturers who's names are on everyones tongues and do business as US companies right here in the USA for many years. Seeing they aren't shutting down the wireless companies making and selling this stuff, I can only assume they ain't as worried as you make it out to be. They are probably delighted that those who take innovation, mold it together with ingenuity, and start serving the under served are doing a good job. Doing just what the feds want, getting broadband to the under served, which usually means the poor communities that are left out because of lack of funding. You should consider though, that what goes on in someone else's back yard just is NOT any of YOUR beeswax. Ralph wrote: Responses inline... Why should WISPA take any stance on what a wisp uses to conduct business? Because you are our industry organization What business is it of others what anyone else does? Anyone who wants to see the industry operate in a proper and legal manner. If the FCC thought what was going on was a terrible thing, they would have said so. Good idea- let's ask them. I will draft my
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Scott Reed wrote: So I am 100% behind Ralph wanting to be assured that WISPA is all about being legal. WISPA put this in the Code of Ethics. The organization is certainly all about being legal. I also agree with Ralph's opening comment about getting more latitude in equipment matching. This was a very minor part of his statement. Taken all together, his statement says (or so it seems to me) just the opposite. He stated in this, or some other email, that efforts to this end were a waste of time (my interpretation, not his words). This is what I would expect a professional organization to do; encourage all members to follow the rules AND work with the governing bodies to change those rules that are a hindrance to the growth of individual WISPs and to the industry as a whole. This is PRECISELY what WISPA is doing. As for the original post creating division, I do not see it that How could you NOT see it that way? The original post was a reply to something that had NOTHING to do with certification. It was a vicious attack that was completely uncalled for and completely out of line. Read back to the original question and Ralph's response. Then, read the entire thread to see if the original question was ever answered. Ralph hijacked the thread. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
It doesn't really help, when attempting to clarify a misunderstood or confusing statement, to say the same thing over again. You asserted, in your posting, that the position of WISPA as stated in the code of ethics, did not meet the requirement in your opinion of being the official stance of WISPA. You are the one who should clarify just exactly how the official written statement contained in the code of ethics falls short of meeting the bar. If the code of ethics statement cannot be taken to be the official postion of WISPA,... 1. why not?, 2. what would you propose that would be adequate in your view? John Zack Kneisley wrote: Please expand upon this statement... Because you agree that WISPA supports only certified systems through a ethics statement, does not conclude that WISPA as a professional organization supports the use of only certified systems. I do not see how this statement makes any sense. The logic loses me about the does not conclude part. John Ok, I'll be happy to. I'm sorry if the logic in my statement is confusing. - 1.Because you agree that WISPA supports only certified systems through ethics statement, ***You have stated that WISPA, through its code of ethics, somehow assumes the stance that it does not condone the use of non-ceritified systems.. correct? 2.does not conclude that WISPA as a professional organization supports the use of only certified systems. ***This does not mean that WISPA take the same position. - I appoligize if I confused you. Is this the official opinion of WISPA? are you making this statement on behalf of WISPA? I don't think you are. Is it WISPA's official public position that non-certified systems are not condoned because you have a code of ethics? Are you representing WISPA with your statement? John, this is not your statement to make.. Honestly, your opinion doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is WISPA's public opinion, not yours. Zack ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John Vogel - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.vogent.net 620-754-3907 Vogel Enterprises, LLC Information Services Provider serving S.E. Kansas ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] In support of legal operation
I appreciate what several WISPA folks are doing to try to get more latitude in equipment/antenna matching, and as a full Principal WISPA member, I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules. It needs to be done now. Actually showing we are paying more than lip service to the current regulations and officially Supporting legal operation may go a long way towards building better credibility with the FCC AS well as with the rest of the wireless industry. Is WISPA up to the challege of setting the precedent. Ralph Brightlan.net North Georgia Broadband Without The Wires ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] In support of legal operation
Ralph As only a list member, wireless operator and entrepreneur, I support and encorage your request. WISPA, should publicly support issues, especially those that are law. This specific position should not be something that requires debate. I hope this request will open a dialog of democratic, representative, self-governing action of WISPA in general. WISPA taking a public position would make paid membership more attractive to myself, and many others I associate with. Zack Kneisley On 9/1/07, Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate what several WISPA folks are doing to try to get more latitude in equipment/antenna matching, and as a full Principal WISPA member, I would like to ask the WISPA board to publish a position paper on legal operation and guidelines for WISPs to use in order to meet the current rules. It needs to be done now. Actually showing we are paying more than lip service to the current regulations and officially Supporting legal operation may go a long way towards building better credibility with the FCC AS well as with the rest of the wireless industry. Is WISPA up to the challege of setting the precedent. Ralph Brightlan.net North Georgia Broadband Without The Wires ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
