Re: [WISPA] Wireless Digest, Vol 24, Issue 16

[Fred Goldstein]

On 1/8/2014 12:08 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
> the part 15 PTP 24Ghz band is only from 24000-24200Mhz (200Mhz of 
> spectrum) i would assume that the doppler radar for cars is in another 
> slice of the 24Ghz spectrum.  as far as i know 24000-24200Mhz is for 
> part 15 PTP only.
>
> shouldn't be an issue.
>
> 2 cents
>
> -sean
>

I opened the rule book to see what might apply.  It turns out that field 
distubance sensor vehicular systems are allowed, per 15.252, to operate 
from 24000-29000, but with a maximum EIRP of only -41 dBm.  And 
"Operation shall occur only upon specific activation, such as upon 
starting the vehicle, changing gears, or engaging a turn signal."  So it 
won't run all the time.  This, then, probably isn't what they're using 
for two-vehicles-away collision avoidance radar. The rules in 15.253 for 
77 GHz systems are much looser, and that seems to be where the cars are 
headed.

-- 
  Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred "at" interisle.net
  Interisle Consulting Group
  +1 617 795 2701

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Re: [WISPA] Wireless Digest, Vol 24, Issue 16

[Sean Heskett]

the part 15 PTP 24Ghz band is only from 24000-24200Mhz (200Mhz of spectrum)
i would assume that the doppler radar for cars is in another slice of the
24Ghz spectrum.  as far as i know 24000-24200Mhz is for part 15 PTP only.

shouldn't be an issue.

2 cents

-sean



On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Fred Goldstein wrote:

>  On 1/8/2014 9:35 AM, Jack Lehmann wrote:
>
> In NYC (outer borough), I have a bunch of 24GHz SAF ~2.5 mile links doing
> very nicely. Very satisfied with their performance. All that, knowing that
> there's always the risk of unlicensed interference relative to licensed.
> Still holding nicely though, considering the wild weather we've been
> having. I also have not seen RF interference issues at all.
>
>
> Just to clarify... I wouldn't touch 24 GHz *for an 11-mile link*.  But
> they're great for shorter links, like yours, especially in urban areas.
> And the narrow beams do limit interference. We do fine with 60 GHz too, for
> very short hops, like half a mile, though preferably with a 5 GHz backup or
> alternative path.
>
> I am a bit curious about vehicle radar, though.  I've seen it mentioned as
> operating in the 24 and 70 GHz bands. Only a few high-end cars have it now
> but it is likely to become more common.  Does anyone know how often it uses
> 24 GHz? This might eventually impact urban paths or those that go over
> highways.
>
>
>   Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 00:11:47 -0500
>> From: Fred Goldstein 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
>> To: wireless@wispa.org
>> Message-ID: <52ccde13.1060...@ionary.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> On 1/7/2014 8:29 PM, Gino Villarini wrote:
>> >
>> > Its doable with the PTP650's, add 3' dishes for a nice rx gain
>> >
>>
>> I seem to recall a story several years ago, before Orthogon was bought
>> by Moto, about a link somewhere in Central America (Nicaragua or
>> Panama?) that used a pair of 5.8 GHz Orthogon radios, 6 foot dishes, and
>> went over 100 miles.  Hilltops and a really big dish will do wonders.
>> Licensed 6 GHz radios, with their 6' dishes, are considered very
>> reliable out to 30 miles.  An unlicensed link is not protected against
>> interference the same way but several of the 5.8 GHz options seem
>> plausible.
>>
>> But I wouldn't touch 24 GHz. It's ground zero for rain fade, so long
>> hops there are only useful on sunny days, best in the desert. ;-) The
>> adjacent 23 GHz licensed band has less rain fade, though, and is worth
>> considering, and it should be duck soup on 18 GHz, though again licensed
>> radios cost a bit more, especially the higher-powered or higher-speed
>> options. We're shooting a DragonWave 18 GHz hop about 8 miles across
>> Boston Hahbah and it's very solid, though extreme weather might cause
>> some dropouts.  We didn't see any during this past week's snow, though
>> signals faded a few dB during yesterday's rain.
>>
>> > Gino A. Villarini
>> >
>> > g...@aeronetpr.com 
>> >
>> > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>> >
>> > 787.273.4143
>> >
>> > *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> > *On Behalf Of *Christian Palecek
>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 07, 2014 9:21 PM
>> > *To:* WISPA General List
>> > *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
>> >
>> > Seems like you are asking a lot of unlicensed, unless it is completely
>> > quiet in your area...
>> >
>> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  Original message 
>> > From: Ian Framson
>> > Date:01/07/2014 6:10 PM (GMT-07:00)
>> > To: WISPA General List
>> > Subject: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
>> >
>> > Hi Wisps,
>> >
>> > We are looking for a pair of radios that can do 200 Mbps FDX over 11
>> > miles (real world, not manufacturer's theoretical marketing promises).
>> > We are looking at using an unlicensed link (most likely 5 GHz) due to
>> > the time constraints, although we're open to suggestions.
>> >
>> > The make/model we were considering was Motorola PTP650 with 450 Mbps
>> > upgrade license.  We are not wed to Motorola, however. The cost seems
>> > to be the limiting factor at this point.
>> >
>> > Another WISP I spoke with mentioned Bridgewave TD60 might be 1
>> > possibility.
>> >
>> > Your thoughts?
>> >
>>
>
> --
>  Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred "at" interisle.net
>  Interisle Consulting Group
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Wireless Digest, Vol 24, Issue 16

[Fred Goldstein]

On 1/8/2014 9:35 AM, Jack Lehmann wrote:
In NYC (outer borough), I have a bunch of 24GHz SAF ~2.5 mile links 
doing very nicely. Very satisfied with their performance. All that, 
knowing that there's always the risk of unlicensed interference 
relative to licensed. Still holding nicely though, considering the 
wild weather we've been having. I also have not seen RF interference 
issues at all.




Just to clarify... I wouldn't touch 24 GHz *for an 11-mile link*. But 
they're great for shorter links, like yours, especially in urban areas.  
And the narrow beams do limit interference. We do fine with 60 GHz too, 
for very short hops, like half a mile, though preferably with a 5 GHz 
backup or alternative path.


I am a bit curious about vehicle radar, though.  I've seen it mentioned 
as operating in the 24 and 70 GHz bands. Only a few high-end cars have 
it now but it is likely to become more common. Does anyone know how 
often it uses 24 GHz? This might eventually impact urban paths or those 
that go over highways.



Message: 1
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 00:11:47 -0500
From: Fred Goldstein mailto:fgoldst...@ionary.com>>
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
To: wireless@wispa.org 
Message-ID: <52ccde13.1060...@ionary.com
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On 1/7/2014 8:29 PM, Gino Villarini wrote:
>
> Its doable with the PTP650's, add 3' dishes for a nice rx gain
>

I seem to recall a story several years ago, before Orthogon was bought
by Moto, about a link somewhere in Central America (Nicaragua or
Panama?) that used a pair of 5.8 GHz Orthogon radios, 6 foot
dishes, and
went over 100 miles.  Hilltops and a really big dish will do wonders.
Licensed 6 GHz radios, with their 6' dishes, are considered very
reliable out to 30 miles.  An unlicensed link is not protected against
interference the same way but several of the 5.8 GHz options seem
plausible.

But I wouldn't touch 24 GHz. It's ground zero for rain fade, so long
hops there are only useful on sunny days, best in the desert. ;-) The
adjacent 23 GHz licensed band has less rain fade, though, and is worth
considering, and it should be duck soup on 18 GHz, though again
licensed
radios cost a bit more, especially the higher-powered or higher-speed
options. We're shooting a DragonWave 18 GHz hop about 8 miles across
Boston Hahbah and it's very solid, though extreme weather might cause
some dropouts.  We didn't see any during this past week's snow, though
signals faded a few dB during yesterday's rain.

> Gino A. Villarini
>
> g...@aeronetpr.com 
>
>
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>
> 787.273.4143 
>
> *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org

[mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org
]
> *On Behalf Of *Christian Palecek
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 07, 2014 9:21 PM
> *To:* WISPA General List
> *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
>
> Seems like you are asking a lot of unlicensed, unless it is
completely
> quiet in your area...
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Ian Framson
> Date:01/07/2014 6:10 PM (GMT-07:00)
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
>
> Hi Wisps,
>
> We are looking for a pair of radios that can do 200 Mbps FDX over 11
> miles (real world, not manufacturer's theoretical marketing
promises).
> We are looking at using an unlicensed link (most likely 5 GHz)
due to
> the time constraints, although we're open to suggestions.
>
> The make/model we were considering was Motorola PTP650 with 450 Mbps
> upgrade license.  We are not wed to Motorola, however. The cost
seems
> to be the limiting factor at this point.
>
> Another WISP I spoke with mentioned Bridgewave TD60 might be 1
> possibility.
>
> Your thoughts?
>



--
 Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred "at" interisle.net
 Interisle Consulting Group
 +1 617 795 2701

___
Wireless mailing list
Wireless@wispa.org
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Re: [WISPA] Wireless Digest, Vol 24, Issue 16

[Jack Lehmann]

In NYC (outer borough), I have a bunch of 24GHz SAF ~2.5 mile links doing
very nicely. Very satisfied with their performance. All that, knowing that
there's always the risk of unlicensed interference relative to licensed.
Still holding nicely though, considering the wild weather we've been
having. I also have not seen RF interference issues at all.


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 12:54 AM,  wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>1. Re:  Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios (Fred Goldstein)
>2. Re:  Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios (Daniel White)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 00:11:47 -0500
> From: Fred Goldstein 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
> To: wireless@wispa.org
> Message-ID: <52ccde13.1060...@ionary.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On 1/7/2014 8:29 PM, Gino Villarini wrote:
> >
> > Its doable with the PTP650's, add 3' dishes for a nice rx gain
> >
>
> I seem to recall a story several years ago, before Orthogon was bought
> by Moto, about a link somewhere in Central America (Nicaragua or
> Panama?) that used a pair of 5.8 GHz Orthogon radios, 6 foot dishes, and
> went over 100 miles.  Hilltops and a really big dish will do wonders.
> Licensed 6 GHz radios, with their 6' dishes, are considered very
> reliable out to 30 miles.  An unlicensed link is not protected against
> interference the same way but several of the 5.8 GHz options seem
> plausible.
>
> But I wouldn't touch 24 GHz. It's ground zero for rain fade, so long
> hops there are only useful on sunny days, best in the desert. ;-) The
> adjacent 23 GHz licensed band has less rain fade, though, and is worth
> considering, and it should be duck soup on 18 GHz, though again licensed
> radios cost a bit more, especially the higher-powered or higher-speed
> options. We're shooting a DragonWave 18 GHz hop about 8 miles across
> Boston Hahbah and it's very solid, though extreme weather might cause
> some dropouts.  We didn't see any during this past week's snow, though
> signals faded a few dB during yesterday's rain.
>
> > Gino A. Villarini
> >
> > g...@aeronetpr.com 
> >
> > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> >
> > 787.273.4143
> >
> > *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> > *On Behalf Of *Christian Palecek
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 07, 2014 9:21 PM
> > *To:* WISPA General List
> > *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
> >
> > Seems like you are asking a lot of unlicensed, unless it is completely
> > quiet in your area...
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
> >
> >
> >
> >  Original message 
> > From: Ian Framson
> > Date:01/07/2014 6:10 PM (GMT-07:00)
> > To: WISPA General List
> > Subject: [WISPA] Advice Needed on 200 Mbps FDX Radios
> >
> > Hi Wisps,
> >
> > We are looking for a pair of radios that can do 200 Mbps FDX over 11
> > miles (real world, not manufacturer's theoretical marketing promises).
> > We are looking at using an unlicensed link (most likely 5 GHz) due to
> > the time constraints, although we're open to suggestions.
> >
> > The make/model we were considering was Motorola PTP650 with 450 Mbps
> > upgrade license.  We are not wed to Motorola, however. The cost seems
> > to be the limiting factor at this point.
> >
> > Another WISP I spoke with mentioned Bridgewave TD60 might be 1
> > possibility.
> >
> > Your thoughts?
> >
> > Ian Framson
> > Co-founder
> >
> > Trade Show Internet logo
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