Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
Mark: But, the FACT of the matter is by slapping together that collection of pieces to make a radio that you will deploy for commercial, revenue service as a telecommunications service provider is ILLEGAL. You make a compelling case that the pieces parts systems you're describing are far more innovative than what's currently on the market from the larger vendors... but ultimately irrelevant. That you don't THINK putting together pieces parts radios for use in the US without going through the formality of FCC certification as a system SHOULD be illegal is irrelevant. Thanks, Steve On Feb 18, 2007, at Feb 18 09:07 PM, wispa wrote: On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:52:04 -0800, Patrick Leary wrote George, ones person's innovation is something that might another person nothing but migraines. If you think you getting cutting edge innovation and state of the art technology from the uncertified manufacturers I don't know what to tell you except your technology exposure may be a bit narrow. But Patrick, it's NOT uncertified manufacturers as if we're talking about some big greedy corporation. Unless you refer to me. Or the guy down the street. Or even the woman over in the next town. Or THOUSANDS of people all over the world who find that what they want to do is either not supported by something off the shelf, or never even conceived by some engineer, or didn't make it past the marketing and budgeting departments. Download an open and free bit of Linux. Buy a surplus CPU board. Buy whatever radio module you want or need. Put it in a box and VIOLA, you already have more features most WISP Network operators wnat, than Alvarion can figure out how to put in a box. Does it have cutting edge RF qualities? Nope. Does it have Cisco quality routing? Nope. Does it have -100 to +200 degree temperature range? Nope. But, none of those are required. I don't have to the BEST rf front end and features to be successful. I just have to have to have the ones I find necessary, and the ability to get those things changed I need changed. And these people are endlessly exploring and refining mesh networks, customer controls, routing, etc, etc... and THEY NEVER STOP. So, if I want the lowest priced VL stuff to route and do NAT at the customer's end, will Alvarion build it in for me? No? Gee, that's already in the FREE stuff. Huh. Next time you whine that there's uncertified manufacturers, you're talking about the workshops, desks, garages, offices, or even spare bedrooms of THOUSANDS and thousands of people spread all around the country. And we shoulid NOT be stifled by a rigid and corporate-centric regulatory straightjacket. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Writing about BWIA again! - http://www.bwianews.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:58:02 -0800, Steve Stroh wrote Mark: But, the FACT of the matter is by slapping together that collection of pieces to make a radio that you will deploy for commercial, revenue service as a telecommunications service provider is ILLEGAL. But Steve, many of these people are NOT deploying a commercial service provider. Some of them are just hobbyists. Some of them are just networking their back yard. Some of them are building community free networks. Some of them are doing it to make money. Some of them are just doing it because they can and find it fun and intersting. Patrick called ALL of these illegal manufacturers. You make a compelling case that the pieces parts systems you're describing are far more innovative than what's currently on the market from the larger vendors... but ultimately irrelevant. How's it irrelevant? I make no claims that because it's a good idea or workable, that the law can't be followed. I'm arguing that it's a change we should try to get done. That you don't THINK putting together pieces parts radios for use in the US without going through the formality of FCC certification as a system SHOULD be illegal is irrelevant. It's relevant, as to why we should lobby for change, Steve. Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
George, ones person's innovation is something that might another person nothing but migraines. If you think you getting cutting edge innovation and state of the art technology from the uncertified manufacturers I don't know what to tell you except your technology exposure may be a bit narrow. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not?? Ho ho ho Patrick, So, to add to the list of reasons why a lot of wisps use uncertified gear. One reason that was exposed, was that manufacturers were not keeping up with technology fast enough and the kit systems offered newer technology and allowed a wisp to be more innovative What say you Mr. Leary? Has Alvarion been keeping up fast enough? George (oh yeah, I also think there was a lot of crap slung as cpe's) Patrick Leary wrote: Mac, That's good news that some previously illegal gear is now undergoing FCC certification. It is good for everyone, regardless of what finally led them to earn it. As WISPs, you should use that cert as a minimum litmus test, because it will tell you much more than just the cert itself; it tells you that the vendor actual is concerned about YOUR business, not just the money that can made off you. You should say to any illegal vendor that you might use, You know, I like your features and price, but before I undertake any more study about the possibility of buying your gear you need have your system FCC certified. Do that and those guys will change their habits in a hurry. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:17 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about beingstickerconscious or not?? Hold your Horses there Sir Patrick! There was one comment that used that in their post - I don't think that we as an industry have evolved to that level of degradation in dealing with the laws of the land air. There will always be renegades in every avenue of life, but we are not in that classification :-) and given a little time we will be someone to be reckoned with as the industry leader in wireless across this country. I must admit that I have learned a few things in the past week - or had some things clarified that were quite an awakening for me and a few others. I (for one) will not deploy even one more piece of hardware that is not FCC certified. I have in the last year deployed many unlicensed access points back haul radios though. I made a terrible mistake in doing that, but I was under a false impression of what was legal. The path we will follow from this point on is what is really going to count. I do happen to know of two manufacturers who have gear at FCC certification labs today undergoing their certifications for some specific pieces of their gear. This is something that should have taken place a couple years ago, but now is better than never. I realize that is not going to affect the gear I have in the air today from these guys as it can not be certified - ever - even if they happen to get the exact gear certified that I have on towers today. I think this last visit WISPA members (Thanks men) made to the FCC clarified several things that needed clarification: 1. FILLOUT THOSE FORMS! The FCC is not out to get us. They need the data that only we can supply them - like who we are, where we are (zip code), how many subs...Etc This is their way of helping us. With out this data they can only guess how many we are, how many we serve and the actual coverage area total. Guys - y'all please fill out the form 477 - - it's a good thing for us all. 2. WE ARE NOT LEGAL EVEN IF WE ARE NOT OVER POWERED OR OUT OF BAND. I am not going into any details here because that is stated just as simple as it can get. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 11:33 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about being stickerconscious or not?? Sticker conscious? So this is what we've become as an industry? Following the very clear laws, which were once again just reiterated to us after another in a long chain of WISP visits, or not has now been reduced to simply being sticker conscious or not sticker conscious? Why not go further and call yourself Illegal and proud or just I don't give
Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
Aw come on now. Thats was just a not well thought out hip shot slur. Fact was you just said Tranzeo you admired. They were innovative. Been there for 5 years now. I used them when you were selling FHSS as the ultimate 2.4 solution. Here is you chance, list your companies innovations by chronological order starting the day you took the evangelist job up until now, and I will demonstrate to you, how the big manufacturers hold us up. Again, not a rub against Alvarion, I truly respect your company, but, I want to make a point here. George Patrick Leary wrote: George, ones person's innovation is something that might another person nothing but migraines. If you think you getting cutting edge innovation and state of the art technology from the uncertified manufacturers I don't know what to tell you except your technology exposure may be a bit narrow. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not?? Ho ho ho Patrick, So, to add to the list of reasons why a lot of wisps use uncertified gear. One reason that was exposed, was that manufacturers were not keeping up with technology fast enough and the kit systems offered newer technology and allowed a wisp to be more innovative What say you Mr. Leary? Has Alvarion been keeping up fast enough? George (oh yeah, I also think there was a lot of crap slung as cpe's) Patrick Leary wrote: Mac, That's good news that some previously illegal gear is now undergoing FCC certification. It is good for everyone, regardless of what finally led them to earn it. As WISPs, you should use that cert as a minimum litmus test, because it will tell you much more than just the cert itself; it tells you that the vendor actual is concerned about YOUR business, not just the money that can made off you. You should say to any illegal vendor that you might use, You know, I like your features and price, but before I undertake any more study about the possibility of buying your gear you need have your system FCC certified. Do that and those guys will change their habits in a hurry. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:17 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about beingstickerconscious or not?? Hold your Horses there Sir Patrick! There was one comment that used that in their post - I don't think that we as an industry have evolved to that level of degradation in dealing with the laws of the land air. There will always be renegades in every avenue of life, but we are not in that classification :-) and given a little time we will be someone to be reckoned with as the industry leader in wireless across this country. I must admit that I have learned a few things in the past week - or had some things clarified that were quite an awakening for me and a few others. I (for one) will not deploy even one more piece of hardware that is not FCC certified. I have in the last year deployed many unlicensed access points back haul radios though. I made a terrible mistake in doing that, but I was under a false impression of what was legal. The path we will follow from this point on is what is really going to count. I do happen to know of two manufacturers who have gear at FCC certification labs today undergoing their certifications for some specific pieces of their gear. This is something that should have taken place a couple years ago, but now is better than never. I realize that is not going to affect the gear I have in the air today from these guys as it can not be certified - ever - even if they happen to get the exact gear certified that I have on towers today. I think this last visit WISPA members (Thanks men) made to the FCC clarified several things that needed clarification: 1. FILLOUT THOSE FORMS! The FCC is not out to get us. They need the data that only we can supply them - like who we are, where we are (zip code), how many subs...Etc This is their way of helping us. With out this data they can only guess how many we are, how many we serve and the actual coverage area total. Guys - y'all please fill out the form 477 - - it's a good thing for us all. 2. WE ARE NOT LEGAL EVEN IF WE ARE NOT OVER POWERED OR OUT OF BAND. I am not going into any details here because that is stated just as simple as it can get. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
And, just list the American UL stuff, skip the non American and licensed gear. George Rogato wrote: Aw come on now. Thats was just a not well thought out hip shot slur. Fact was you just said Tranzeo you admired. They were innovative. Been there for 5 years now. I used them when you were selling FHSS as the ultimate 2.4 solution. Here is you chance, list your companies innovations by chronological order starting the day you took the evangelist job up until now, and I will demonstrate to you, how the big manufacturers hold us up. Again, not a rub against Alvarion, I truly respect your company, but, I want to make a point here. George Patrick Leary wrote: George, ones person's innovation is something that might another person nothing but migraines. If you think you getting cutting edge innovation and state of the art technology from the uncertified manufacturers I don't know what to tell you except your technology exposure may be a bit narrow. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not?? Ho ho ho Patrick, So, to add to the list of reasons why a lot of wisps use uncertified gear. One reason that was exposed, was that manufacturers were not keeping up with technology fast enough and the kit systems offered newer technology and allowed a wisp to be more innovative What say you Mr. Leary? Has Alvarion been keeping up fast enough? George (oh yeah, I also think there was a lot of crap slung as cpe's) Patrick Leary wrote: Mac, That's good news that some previously illegal gear is now undergoing FCC certification. It is good for everyone, regardless of what finally led them to earn it. As WISPs, you should use that cert as a minimum litmus test, because it will tell you much more than just the cert itself; it tells you that the vendor actual is concerned about YOUR business, not just the money that can made off you. You should say to any illegal vendor that you might use, You know, I like your features and price, but before I undertake any more study about the possibility of buying your gear you need have your system FCC certified. Do that and those guys will change their habits in a hurry. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:17 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about beingstickerconscious or not?? Hold your Horses there Sir Patrick! There was one comment that used that in their post - I don't think that we as an industry have evolved to that level of degradation in dealing with the laws of the land air. There will always be renegades in every avenue of life, but we are not in that classification :-) and given a little time we will be someone to be reckoned with as the industry leader in wireless across this country. I must admit that I have learned a few things in the past week - or had some things clarified that were quite an awakening for me and a few others. I (for one) will not deploy even one more piece of hardware that is not FCC certified. I have in the last year deployed many unlicensed access points back haul radios though. I made a terrible mistake in doing that, but I was under a false impression of what was legal. The path we will follow from this point on is what is really going to count. I do happen to know of two manufacturers who have gear at FCC certification labs today undergoing their certifications for some specific pieces of their gear. This is something that should have taken place a couple years ago, but now is better than never. I realize that is not going to affect the gear I have in the air today from these guys as it can not be certified - ever - even if they happen to get the exact gear certified that I have on towers today. I think this last visit WISPA members (Thanks men) made to the FCC clarified several things that needed clarification: 1. FILLOUT THOSE FORMS! The FCC is not out to get us. They need the data that only we can supply them - like who we are, where we are (zip code), how many subs...Etc This is their way of helping us. With out this data they can only guess how many we are, how many we serve and the actual coverage area total. Guys - y'all please fill out the form 477 - - it's a good thing for us all. 2. WE ARE NOT LEGAL EVEN IF WE ARE NOT OVER POWERED OR OUT OF BAND. I am not going into any details here because that is stated just as simple as it can
RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:52:04 -0800, Patrick Leary wrote George, ones person's innovation is something that might another person nothing but migraines. If you think you getting cutting edge innovation and state of the art technology from the uncertified manufacturers I don't know what to tell you except your technology exposure may be a bit narrow. But Patrick, it's NOT uncertified manufacturers as if we're talking about some big greedy corporation. Unless you refer to me. Or the guy down the street. Or even the woman over in the next town. Or THOUSANDS of people all over the world who find that what they want to do is either not supported by something off the shelf, or never even conceived by some engineer, or didn't make it past the marketing and budgeting departments. Download an open and free bit of Linux. Buy a surplus CPU board. Buy whatever radio module you want or need. Put it in a box and VIOLA, you already have more features most WISP Network operators wnat, than Alvarion can figure out how to put in a box. Does it have cutting edge RF qualities? Nope. Does it have Cisco quality routing? Nope. Does it have -100 to +200 degree temperature range? Nope. But, none of those are required. I don't have to the BEST rf front end and features to be successful. I just have to have to have the ones I find necessary, and the ability to get those things changed I need changed. And these people are endlessly exploring and refining mesh networks, customer controls, routing, etc, etc... and THEY NEVER STOP. So, if I want the lowest priced VL stuff to route and do NAT at the customer's end, will Alvarion build it in for me? No? Gee, that's already in the FREE stuff. Huh. Next time you whine that there's uncertified manufacturers, you're talking about the workshops, desks, garages, offices, or even spare bedrooms of THOUSANDS and thousands of people spread all around the country. And we shoulid NOT be stifled by a rigid and corporate-centric regulatory straightjacket. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mark Koskenmaki Neofast, Inc Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains 541-969-8200 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not??
Be careful George, you are taunting Patrick with that one. :-) The last time someone did that, he posted a several page book, listing about 50 reasons how the VL series innovated beyond its competitors. Alvarion may not offer all the same flexibility as the other oem products, but it sure is leading the industry with innovation of many unique features. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simplyabout beingstickerconscious or not?? Ho ho ho Patrick, So, to add to the list of reasons why a lot of wisps use uncertified gear. One reason that was exposed, was that manufacturers were not keeping up with technology fast enough and the kit systems offered newer technology and allowed a wisp to be more innovative What say you Mr. Leary? Has Alvarion been keeping up fast enough? George (oh yeah, I also think there was a lot of crap slung as cpe's) Patrick Leary wrote: Mac, That's good news that some previously illegal gear is now undergoing FCC certification. It is good for everyone, regardless of what finally led them to earn it. As WISPs, you should use that cert as a minimum litmus test, because it will tell you much more than just the cert itself; it tells you that the vendor actual is concerned about YOUR business, not just the money that can made off you. You should say to any illegal vendor that you might use, You know, I like your features and price, but before I undertake any more study about the possibility of buying your gear you need have your system FCC certified. Do that and those guys will change their habits in a hurry. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:17 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about beingstickerconscious or not?? Hold your Horses there Sir Patrick! There was one comment that used that in their post - I don't think that we as an industry have evolved to that level of degradation in dealing with the laws of the land air. There will always be renegades in every avenue of life, but we are not in that classification :-) and given a little time we will be someone to be reckoned with as the industry leader in wireless across this country. I must admit that I have learned a few things in the past week - or had some things clarified that were quite an awakening for me and a few others. I (for one) will not deploy even one more piece of hardware that is not FCC certified. I have in the last year deployed many unlicensed access points back haul radios though. I made a terrible mistake in doing that, but I was under a false impression of what was legal. The path we will follow from this point on is what is really going to count. I do happen to know of two manufacturers who have gear at FCC certification labs today undergoing their certifications for some specific pieces of their gear. This is something that should have taken place a couple years ago, but now is better than never. I realize that is not going to affect the gear I have in the air today from these guys as it can not be certified - ever - even if they happen to get the exact gear certified that I have on towers today. I think this last visit WISPA members (Thanks men) made to the FCC clarified several things that needed clarification: 1. FILLOUT THOSE FORMS! The FCC is not out to get us. They need the data that only we can supply them - like who we are, where we are (zip code), how many subs...Etc This is their way of helping us. With out this data they can only guess how many we are, how many we serve and the actual coverage area total. Guys - y'all please fill out the form 477 - - it's a good thing for us all. 2. WE ARE NOT LEGAL EVEN IF WE ARE NOT OVER POWERED OR OUT OF BAND. I am not going into any details here because that is stated just as simple as it can get. Sincerely, Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 11:33 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Following the FCC rules are now simply about being stickerconscious or not?? Sticker conscious? So this is what we've become as an industry? Following the very clear laws, which were once again just reiterated to us after another in a long chain of WISP visits, or not has now been reduced to simply being sticker conscious or not sticker conscious? Why not go further and call yourself Illegal and proud or just I don't give a ? Let's not have any more gee, I can't afford to be legal! That's not an argument
