Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
With this in mind what is the best financing option for fiber deployments? Our current leasing providers are not interested because of it being fiber? So what is a viable finance option for your own fiber deployments? John - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:15:24 AM GMT -05:00 Columbia Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John Buwa Michiana Wireless Phone: 574-233-7170 http://www.michianawireless.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
I would be looking at SBA loans. I understand that SBA is being revamped to 90% loan guarantee and other fees being wiped. And don't forget there is the stimulus and wispa has a grant and legislative committee. Hope this is helpful. George sa...@michianawireless.com wrote: With this in mind what is the best financing option for fiber deployments? Our current leasing providers are not interested because of it being fiber? So what is a viable finance option for your own fiber deployments? John - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:15:24 AM GMT -05:00 Columbia Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Last I knew, US Signal was in the dark fiber business. I believe they're in town. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: sa...@michianawireless.com Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:14 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth With this in mind what is the best financing option for fiber deployments? Our current leasing providers are not interested because of it being fiber? So what is a viable finance option for your own fiber deployments? John - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:15:24 AM GMT -05:00 Columbia Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John Buwa Michiana Wireless Phone: 574-233-7170 http://www.michianawireless.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
My question would be, is there anyone doing glass from the Carrier hotel to the edge of town? If you were able to get fiber on the edge of Spokane, wouldn't it save you a few towers? I wish it weren't top secret as to where the fiber is. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go somewhere ( website) and see who has glass and where? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if many on this list were within spittin' distance of glass. John Marlon K. Schafer wrote: It's the economies of it all in so many places. Many areas will require the construction of 100+ foot towers. At what, $10 to $20k per tower (complete install), even for a small one that won't hold many antennas. Then there are hills, mountains, permitting issues etc. I know I can get a fiber connection to Spokane and I can get it fairly cheaply. But it's still 3 to 4x what I'm paying for my bandwidth today. Just for the loop, forget the cost of data, no matter how cheap, from there. I asked Century Tel what it would cost to rent dark fiber from them. They laughed at me. Spokane is only 75 or so miles from here. But I'd need 1 hop to get out of town, at least 5 or 6 to get to the edge of Spokane, then 2 or 3 more to get down to the telco hotel there. IF I could even get BW on the roof (probably could but I don't know what the cost per month would be). We all look at these options all of the time. I just got the last bit of hardware that I'll need to link my Grant Co. and Lincoln Co. networks together. This will give me the ONLY backup link into Odessa. It'll also give me access to cheaper bandwidth here (after I upgrade to better faster backhauls on all of the towers between the two networks). We'll get there eventually. marlon - Original Message - From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 6:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Fair enough -- so say you're in the sticks...and you pay $400 / Mb Chances are...the nearest fiber / colo facility that's $50 / Mb is now 100+ miles away -- 100+ miles of wireless infrastructure + associated hardware investments / maintenance expenses / etc still cost more than the cost savings of $50 / Mb -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of J. Vogel Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Charles, I would love to live in the world you describe here. :) Bandwidth cost dwarfs credit card processing cost where I live. It also seems very optimistic to put 1000 customers on a 20mb link. At best, I would think that if they are consuming ~20mbps, that you should have at least twice that in capacity, so that means a full DS3, and the best pricing I have gotten on a DS3 is in excess of $6k (and getting to that requires a 25 mile wireless hop). In many areas of the country, $300-400/mbps is the rule for Nx/T1s. John Charles Wu wrote: Hi Hal, In the grand scheme of things...bandwidth / port costs are a minute fraction of an ISP/WISPs operating expenses (heck, I find that for a residential WISP...the credit card processing bill can be higher than the bandwidth bill) That said, look at it this way Based on our studies/trending...1,000 residential subscribers consume ~20 Mb of bandwidth So...1,000 customers @ $40 / month = $40k / month in revenue If you're getting hosed and paying $200 / Mb, that's still only $4k / month Now...say there's a datacenter 40 miles away that has bandwidth for $50 / Mb -- that's a total of $3k / month in savings -- John Vogel - jvo...@vogent.net http://www.vogent.net 620-754-3907 Vogel Enterprises LLC Information Services Provider serving S.E. Kansas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
I guess I still forget that not everyone is on 95th percentile billing -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Agreed we have a tad more than a 1000 wireless subs and we hit our cap nightly @ 30megs. And I try like hell to avoid the power users. J. Vogel wrote: Charles, I would love to live in the world you describe here. :) Bandwidth cost dwarfs credit card processing cost where I live. It also seems very optimistic to put 1000 customers on a 20mb link. At best, I would think that if they are consuming ~20mbps, that you should have at least twice that in capacity, so that means a full DS3, and the best pricing I have gotten on a DS3 is in excess of $6k (and getting to that requires a 25 mile wireless hop). In many areas of the country, $300-400/mbps is the rule for Nx/T1s. John Charles Wu wrote: Hi Hal, In the grand scheme of things...bandwidth / port costs are a minute fraction of an ISP/WISPs operating expenses (heck, I find that for a residential WISP...the credit card processing bill can be higher than the bandwidth bill) That said, look at it this way Based on our studies/trending...1,000 residential subscribers consume ~20 Mb of bandwidth So...1,000 customers @ $40 / month = $40k / month in revenue If you're getting hosed and paying $200 / Mb, that's still only $4k / month Now...say there's a datacenter 40 miles away that has bandwidth for $50 / Mb -- that's a total of $3k / month in savings WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Again -- it depends where you are and who you have to deal with. within the first 20 miles or so of our city you have to pay the city $2 a foot for the permit and then some fee each month, directional bore each road with its own permit and engineering etc. A L3 guy told me their costs to build out around here is about $35,000 per mile. While I'm sure lots of people would love to use fiber after it went from point a to be its not realistic for a smaller company to fund a project of that size or even be allowed to do it (to run fiber here you have to be a registered state utility company). Every single instance for every single ISP is going to be different and suffice it to say we all should and probably already do our homework before making any kind of large commitment or investment - bandwidth included. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:16 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
A lot of this is educational for me, but I do have a couple of thoughts. If you are having to hop microwave 10 hops to get to your intended target, would it not be possible to put an AP on each tower along the way, providing service to those areas also, to help subsidize the costs? And what about aerial fiber? There is a LOT of it in use around here. Yes, you would have pole attachment fees, but most of you are pretty good at coming up with deals involving providing bandwidth etc to the people who own the poles. Just some thoughts, probably not worth what you are paying for them. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth It's true that it is a big expense and it's not an easy task. But, we just got a franchise agreement from our city for fiber. The way they calculate it is either on a per foot basis, or a percentage of revenues across the fiber. Naturally we did the percentage, but another company that brought submarine cable through our city is paying a yearly per foot. So with the percentage based system, the cost are easier to consume for city wide. As for the boring, thats what I'm wrestling with right now myself. Back in 2000 or 2001 we laid conduits up a couple streets to get some fiber going. We didn't even have a franchise agreement with the city, but it was sanctioned by them anyways. What we did was to buy the pvc ourselves and hired a prison crew to dig. I live on a sand dune, so digging is much easier here than places with harder soil types. One of the excavators I used work with when I was an electrician came by after seeing the crew digging and told me he could have done it for less. So we compared notes, what it cost me for prison labor and his price based on the footage. He was one of the cheapest guys around for excavating, so the price he told me wasn't going to get any better. It turned out we were a bit lower than his price, with the exception that he would have broken sidewalks and possibly damaged pipes along the way, where we were a clean damage free dig. So yeah, it cost a lot to dig, but the conduits will be there for ever and you can do anything with the fiber that you can find a market for. And it keeps you in the game. Sadly, if wisps or isps don't start thinking about laying fiber, I think the future will be cut short. Not saying to give up on wireless but rather thinking about how to compliment the wireless with fiber. It's Sunday and I have to go back to work... Today we are learning to terminate fiber. George Scott Carullo wrote: Again -- it depends where you are and who you have to deal with. within the first 20 miles or so of our city you have to pay the city $2 a foot for the permit and then some fee each month, directional bore each road with its own permit and engineering etc. A L3 guy told me their costs to build out around here is about $35,000 per mile. While I'm sure lots of people would love to use fiber after it went from point a to be its not realistic for a smaller company to fund a project of that size or even be allowed to do it (to run fiber here you have to be a registered state utility company). Every single instance for every single ISP is going to be different and suffice it to say we all should and probably already do our homework before making any kind of large commitment or investment - bandwidth included. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:16 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Hi, Honestly for us, even in the middle of NoWhere, Idaho... our total bandwidth costs (for three OC-3 connections) is only 11% of our total expenses. Yes, I'm always interested in saving money, but it's going to be much easier to save on things like payroll that account for 36% of our expenses. :) Travis Microserv George Rogato wrote: It's true that it is a big expense and it's not an easy task. But, we just got a "franchise agreement" from our city for fiber. The way they calculate it is either on a per foot basis, or a percentage of revenues across the fiber. Naturally we did the percentage, but another company that brought submarine cable through our city is paying a yearly per foot. So with the percentage based system, the cost are easier to consume for city wide. As for the boring, thats what I'm wrestling with right now myself. Back in 2000 or 2001 we laid conduits up a couple streets to get some fiber going. We didn't even have a franchise agreement with the city, but it was sanctioned by them anyways. What we did was to buy the pvc ourselves and hired a prison crew to dig. I live on a sand dune, so digging is much easier here than places with harder soil types. One of the excavators I used work with when I was an electrician came by after seeing the crew digging and told me he could have done it for less. So we compared notes, what it cost me for prison labor and his price based on the footage. He was one of the cheapest guys around for excavating, so the price he told me wasn't going to get any better. It turned out we were a bit lower than his price, with the exception that he would have broken sidewalks and possibly damaged pipes along the way, where we were a clean damage free dig. So yeah, it cost a lot to dig, but the conduits will be there for ever and you can do anything with the fiber that you can find a market for. And it keeps you in the game. Sadly, if wisps or isps don't start thinking about laying fiber, I think the future will be cut short. Not saying to give up on wireless but rather thinking about how to compliment the wireless with fiber. It's Sunday and I have to go back to work... Today we are learning to terminate fiber. George Scott Carullo wrote: Again -- it depends where you are and who you have to deal with. within the first 20 miles or so of our city you have to pay the city $2 a foot for the permit and then some fee each month, directional bore each road with its own permit and engineering etc. A L3 guy told me their costs to build out around here is about $35,000 per mile. While I'm sure lots of people would love to use fiber after it went from point a to be its not realistic for a smaller company to fund a project of that size or even be allowed to do it (to run fiber here you have to be a registered state utility company). Every single instance for every single ISP is going to be different and suffice it to say we all should and probably already do our homework before making any kind of large commitment or investment - bandwidth included. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: "John Scrivner" j...@scrivner.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:16 AM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an "exit ramp on your information super-highway" if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
What is the cost of aerial fiber these days? I know it depends on number of strands and technology, so if someone were going to do this in a small city, what type would you want to use? Around here, the electric company gets around $8/yr/pole to use their poles. Under normal conditions, how many poles are there in a mile. I pay $1325/mth for two T1's from ACC. I am in a rural cooperative area, and the loop cost account for 2/3's of that to go about 40 miles. The local rural telco priced me fiber at $2500/mth for 10/10 meg, and a $2500 install fee. They now have metro ethernet and I can get 6/6 meg for $1300/mth. I will probably go this route soon, if I can not find a better alternative. Cable co. is privately owned here and the owner despises us, so that is OOTQ. I can get a shot to fiber 16 miles north that is $1500/mth for 10/10 meg from a public cable company. I will need to rent tower space at one end and buy the backhaul equipment, plus being in very stormy area, have to worry about lightning 8 - 10 months out of the year. I can not see me coming out this way at a savings of $1000/mth for quite sometime. Most tower companies here are Crown Castle and other big names that ask cell phone company rates to get on their towers which are at least $750/mth. Their are other alternatives I have not explored, such as building my own tower at the other end, or renting from the cable company tower that may be much cheaper. The fiber route mentioned had me interested. It is about 20 miles by road to the same location that the 16 miles shot is. I know the cost will be way higher, but I could then use the fiber in the towns along the way to offer service. About 5 miles of this road way area does not have any broadband at all. I could also offer an alternative to the local rural telcos fiber, which has 0 competition at this point. And last but not least, I would worry much less about lightning. As fiber looks to be the way of the future if we want to stay in business, it is something to look at that is not out of the question. I just do not have any idea about the costs of laying the fiber. We have our own bucket trucks and work crew, so that cost is already incurred. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Blake Bowers bbow...@mozarks.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:12:39 -0500 A lot of this is educational for me, but I do have a couple of thoughts. If you are having to hop microwave 10 hops to get to your intended target, would it not be possible to put an AP on each tower along the way, providing service to those areas also, to help subsidize the costs? And what about aerial fiber? There is a LOT of it in use around here. Yes, you would have pole attachment fees, but most of you are pretty good at coming up with deals involving providing bandwidth etc to the people who own the poles. Just some thoughts, probably not worth what you are paying for them. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth It's true that it is a big expense and it's not an easy task. But, we just got a franchise agreement from our city for fiber. The way they calculate it is either on a per foot basis, or a percentage of revenues across the fiber. Naturally we did the percentage, but another company that brought submarine cable through our city is paying a yearly per foot. So with the percentage based system, the cost are easier to consume for city wide. As for the boring, thats what I'm wrestling with right now myself. Back in 2000 or 2001 we laid conduits up a couple streets to get some fiber going. We didn't even have a franchise agreement with the city, but it was sanctioned by them anyways. What we did was to buy the pvc ourselves and hired a prison crew to dig. I live on a sand dune, so digging is much easier here than places with harder soil types. One of the excavators I used work with when I was an electrician came by after seeing the crew digging and told me he could have done it for less. So we compared notes, what it cost me for prison labor and his price based on the footage. He was one of the cheapest guys around for excavating, so the price he told me wasn't going to get any better. It turned out we were a bit lower than his price, with the exception that he would have broken sidewalks and possibly damaged pipes along the way, where we were a clean damage free dig. So yeah, it cost a lot to dig, but the conduits will be there for ever and you can do anything with the fiber that you can find a market for. And it keeps you in the game. Sadly, if wisps or isps don't start thinking about
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
I was just quoted .23 per foot for 64 strands. Figure 8 type construction. Dry, loose tube. ryan -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 12:20 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth What is the cost of aerial fiber these days? I know it depends on number of strands and technology, so if someone were going to do this in a small city, what type would you want to use? Around here, the electric company gets around $8/yr/pole to use their poles. Under normal conditions, how many poles are there in a mile. I pay $1325/mth for two T1's from ACC. I am in a rural cooperative area, and the loop cost account for 2/3's of that to go about 40 miles. The local rural telco priced me fiber at $2500/mth for 10/10 meg, and a $2500 install fee. They now have metro ethernet and I can get 6/6 meg for $1300/mth. I will probably go this route soon, if I can not find a better alternative. Cable co. is privately owned here and the owner despises us, so that is OOTQ. I can get a shot to fiber 16 miles north that is $1500/mth for 10/10 meg from a public cable company. I will need to rent tower space at one end and buy the backhaul equipment, plus being in very stormy area, have to worry about lightning 8 - 10 months out of the year. I can not see me coming out this way at a savings of $1000/mth for quite sometime. Most tower companies here are Crown Castle and other big names that ask cell phone company rates to get on their towers which are at least $750/mth. Their are other alternatives I have not explored, such as building my own tower at the other end, or renting from the cable company tower that may be much cheaper. The fiber route mentioned had me interested. It is about 20 miles by road to the same location that the 16 miles shot is. I know the cost will be way higher, but I could then use the fiber in the towns along the way to offer service. About 5 miles of this road way area does not have any broadband at all. I could also offer an alternative to the local rural telcos fiber, which has 0 competition at this point. And last but not least, I would worry much less about lightning. As fiber looks to be the way of the future if we want to stay in business, it is something to look at that is not out of the question. I just do not have any idea about the costs of laying the fiber. We have our own bucket trucks and work crew, so that cost is already incurred. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Blake Bowers bbow...@mozarks.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:12:39 -0500 A lot of this is educational for me, but I do have a couple of thoughts. If you are having to hop microwave 10 hops to get to your intended target, would it not be possible to put an AP on each tower along the way, providing service to those areas also, to help subsidize the costs? And what about aerial fiber? There is a LOT of it in use around here. Yes, you would have pole attachment fees, but most of you are pretty good at coming up with deals involving providing bandwidth etc to the people who own the poles. Just some thoughts, probably not worth what you are paying for them. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth It's true that it is a big expense and it's not an easy task. But, we just got a franchise agreement from our city for fiber. The way they calculate it is either on a per foot basis, or a percentage of revenues across the fiber. Naturally we did the percentage, but another company that brought submarine cable through our city is paying a yearly per foot. So with the percentage based system, the cost are easier to consume for city wide. As for the boring, thats what I'm wrestling with right now myself. Back in 2000 or 2001 we laid conduits up a couple streets to get some fiber going. We didn't even have a franchise agreement with the city, but it was sanctioned by them anyways. What we did was to buy the pvc ourselves and hired a prison crew to dig. I live on a sand dune, so digging is much easier here than places with harder soil types. One of the excavators I used work with when I was an electrician came by after seeing the crew digging and told me he could have done it for less WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
That comes to $24,288 for 20 miles aerial fiber with 64 strands. Obviously this does not include easements, make ready, labor, etc. but obviously the costs to put in fiber have dropped considerably over the last few years. What brand fiber / supplier quoted you this if you do not mind me asking? Thanks, Scriv On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 1:48 PM, D. Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: I was just quoted .23 per foot for 64 strands. Figure 8 type construction. Dry, loose tube. ryan -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 12:20 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth What is the cost of aerial fiber these days? I know it depends on number of strands and technology, so if someone were going to do this in a small city, what type would you want to use? Around here, the electric company gets around $8/yr/pole to use their poles. Under normal conditions, how many poles are there in a mile. I pay $1325/mth for two T1's from ACC. I am in a rural cooperative area, and the loop cost account for 2/3's of that to go about 40 miles. The local rural telco priced me fiber at $2500/mth for 10/10 meg, and a $2500 install fee. They now have metro ethernet and I can get 6/6 meg for $1300/mth. I will probably go this route soon, if I can not find a better alternative. Cable co. is privately owned here and the owner despises us, so that is OOTQ. I can get a shot to fiber 16 miles north that is $1500/mth for 10/10 meg from a public cable company. I will need to rent tower space at one end and buy the backhaul equipment, plus being in very stormy area, have to worry about lightning 8 - 10 months out of the year. I can not see me coming out this way at a savings of $1000/mth for quite sometime. Most tower companies here are Crown Castle and other big names that ask cell phone company rates to get on their towers which are at least $750/mth. Their are other alternatives I have not explored, such as building my own tower at the other end, or renting from the cable company tower that may be much cheaper. The fiber route mentioned had me interested. It is about 20 miles by road to the same location that the 16 miles shot is. I know the cost will be way higher, but I could then use the fiber in the towns along the way to offer service. About 5 miles of this road way area does not have any broadband at all. I could also offer an alternative to the local rural telcos fiber, which has 0 competition at this point. And last but not least, I would worry much less about lightning. As fiber looks to be the way of the future if we want to stay in business, it is something to look at that is not out of the question. I just do not have any idea about the costs of laying the fiber. We have our own bucket trucks and work crew, so that cost is already incurred. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Blake Bowers bbow...@mozarks.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:12:39 -0500 A lot of this is educational for me, but I do have a couple of thoughts. If you are having to hop microwave 10 hops to get to your intended target, would it not be possible to put an AP on each tower along the way, providing service to those areas also, to help subsidize the costs? And what about aerial fiber? There is a LOT of it in use around here. Yes, you would have pole attachment fees, but most of you are pretty good at coming up with deals involving providing bandwidth etc to the people who own the poles. Just some thoughts, probably not worth what you are paying for them. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth It's true that it is a big expense and it's not an easy task. But, we just got a franchise agreement from our city for fiber. The way they calculate it is either on a per foot basis, or a percentage of revenues across the fiber. Naturally we did the percentage, but another company that brought submarine cable through our city is paying a yearly per foot. So with the percentage based system, the cost are easier to consume for city wide. As for the boring, thats what I'm wrestling with right now myself. Back in 2000 or 2001 we laid conduits up a couple streets to get some fiber going. We didn't even have a franchise agreement with the city, but it was sanctioned by them anyways. What we did was to buy the pvc ourselves and hired a prison crew to dig. I live on a sand dune, so digging is much easier here than places with harder soil types. One of the excavators I used work with when I
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Aerial only costs like $5k - $7k/mile. It also has a lower amount of incidents per mile. You have to pay the city for within 20 miles of the city? That sounds like a bunch of horse... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:56 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Again -- it depends where you are and who you have to deal with. within the first 20 miles or so of our city you have to pay the city $2 a foot for the permit and then some fee each month, directional bore each road with its own permit and engineering etc. A L3 guy told me their costs to build out around here is about $35,000 per mile. While I'm sure lots of people would love to use fiber after it went from point a to be its not realistic for a smaller company to fund a project of that size or even be allowed to do it (to run fiber here you have to be a registered state utility company). Every single instance for every single ISP is going to be different and suffice it to say we all should and probably already do our homework before making any kind of large commitment or investment - bandwidth included. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:16 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
A Charter regional construction engineer told me a couple of years ago that they figure about a buck a foot for the cost of materials and labor to put in aerial fiber. About 5k a mile. I suspect it could be done cheaper once you get a handle on construction costs, etc. 8 bucks a pole is not bad. Not great, but not bad. We are frequently contacted by small cable companies that are shutting down, or just want to get out of a town. We did a bit of investigation into small cable businesses and found that pole attachment rates vary from 2 to 20 bucks a pole. Often times, the cable company had a long term sweetheart deal with the local coop for their attachement, perhaps if you found a deal like that you could pull the coax and string fiber at the same rate? (We have ended up sending a crew in that just pulls the coax, and strips the head end. We only really want the tower!) Another deal I recently saw, Centurytel went through Northern Arkansas a few years back and buried almost everything. They then actually sold a line of poles that ran from one county seat to another county seat, as well as the cable that was on it, and the easements. Dirt cheap too. 2 bucks a pole if I remember correctly. Again, I don't know, every day is an education for me. Just some rambling thoughts. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth What is the cost of aerial fiber these days? I know it depends on number of strands and technology, so if someone were going to do this in a small city, what type would you want to use? Around here, the electric company gets around $8/yr/pole to use their poles. Under normal conditions, how many poles are there in a mile. I pay $1325/mth for two T1's from ACC. I am in a rural cooperative area, and the loop cost account for 2/3's of that to go about 40 miles. The local rural telco priced me fiber at $2500/mth for 10/10 meg, and a $2500 install fee. They now have metro ethernet and I can get 6/6 meg for $1300/mth. I will probably go this route soon, if I can not find a better alternative. Cable co. is privately owned here and the owner despises us, so that is OOTQ. I can get a shot to fiber 16 miles north that is $1500/mth for 10/10 meg from a public cable company. I will need to rent tower space at one end and buy the backhaul equipment, plus being in very stormy area, have to worry about lightning 8 - 10 months out of the year. I can not see me coming out this way at a savings of $1000/mth for quite sometime. Most tower companies here are Crown Castle and other big names that ask cell phone company rates to get on their towers which are at least $750/mth. Their are other alternatives I have not explored, such as building my own tower at the other end, or renting from the cable company tower that may be much cheaper. The fiber route mentioned had me interested. It is about 20 miles by road to the same location that the 16 miles shot is. I know the cost will be way higher, but I could then use the fiber in the towns along the way to offer service. About 5 miles of this road way area does not have any broadband at all. I could also offer an alternative to the local rural telcos fiber, which has 0 competition at this point. And last but not least, I would worry much less about lightning. As fiber looks to be the way of the future if we want to stay in business, it is something to look at that is not out of the question. I just do not have any idea about the costs of laying the fiber. We have our own bucket trucks and work crew, so that cost is already incurred. Scottie WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
I misquoted.. Ugh.. From the excel sheet: 1 M-036-LN-8W-F12NS 74-003-04 $522.12 2 M-072-LN-8W-F12NS 74-009-04 $793.29 Those prices are per 1000 feet. I belong to a group I reference often, the NCTC. They get pretty good pricing on top of this (for instance free shipping with this vendor.) Pole fees in my area are 11something per year. 167 app fee per quarter-section for a series of poles.. If needed make-ready work is around 200-500 per pole. Get a fiber franchise if you can... They are non exclusive and generally cost around 1200 for legal fees with the franchise area plus 5percent of gross per year for money you make with that fiber in that franchise... You can pass this fee as a line item to your customer... Go in as a cable company as most franchise boards have no idea the diff between fiber/coax! I have recent, painfull experience with this that I can comment more on if needed but I am on a break from a huunters ed class and on my phone. I need this class so I can go shoot Marlon's deer this fall! ryan -Original Message- From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:54 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth That comes to $24,288 for 20 miles aerial fiber with 64 strands. Obviously this does not include easements, make ready, labor, etc. but obviously the costs to put in fiber have dropped considerably over the last few years. What brand fiber / supplier quoted you this if you do not mind me asking? Thanks, Scriv On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 1:48 PM, D. Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: I was just quoted .23 per foot for 64 strands. Figure 8 type construction WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
If your city tries charging you BS fees like this then start making FOIA requests to the city for permit fees etc charged to the telco, power and cable companies in the area After nervous glances are given to you by the mayor/city admin you can usually get these fees waived... Quickly... Or lead your local town to a HUGE source uf sudden revenue.. After they fight well funded power, telco and cableco lawyers!!! ryan -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:57 AM To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Aerial only costs like $5k - $7k/mile. It also has a lower amount of incidents per mile. You have to pay the city for within 20 miles of the city? That sounds like a bunch of horse... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:56 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Again -- it depends where you are and who you have to deal with. within the first 20 miles or so of our city you have to pay the city $2 a foot for the permit and then some fee each month, directional bore each road with its own permit and engineering etc. A L3 guy told me their costs to build out around here is about $35,000 per mile. While I'm sure lots of people would love to use fiber after it went from point a to be its not realistic for a smaller company to fund a project of that size or even be allowed to do it (to run fiber here you have to be a registered state utility company). Every single instance for every single ISP is going to be different and suffice it to say we all should and probably already do our homework before making any kind of large commitment or investment - bandwidth included. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:16 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
It doesn't matter how many are in town, if none of them will give you access. The fact is... Nobody will sell you access to their Fiber near cost to deploy it, when it will only allow you to compete against their own retail services. They will only give you a cost that will allow you to be a bit more expensive than their own service. Secondly, the cost models listed are on last generation models, not future generation models. Sure 1000 users can be served with 20mbps in the past. But can it when the users now each have 5 mb uploads and 20 mbps downloads? When you start hitting 100mbps because one is going after large anchor tenants whom might actually use badnwdith, The $200/mb Bandwidth doesn't translate the same. The issue is... How do you grow over the next 5 years to deliver the fast speeds that consumers will eventually desire? My opinion is two fold One does invest and build their own Wireless Backhauls, even if it costs more in the short term. The reason is that once you have, you'll have the leverage to buy Fiber cheaper, in the future. If they won't sell it cheaper, take the fiber carrier's customers by under selling them, until they lower their price. And when Fiber is deployed via grants, lobby for the deployers to get priority, if they sell Fibers to third parties at cost, at a lower cost than the managed service. So more providers can get dark fiber equivellent to the cost, so competition is being created at the same time. If 64 strands exist, buying acccess to 1 strand should be 1/64th of the cost to lay that fiber bundle. In most markets the cost of a Dark Fiber strand is far greater than a managed service that specificall limits the potential of the buyer. Fiber will never benefit small WISPs until small WISPs get rid of the upstream that purposely limits their potential and value they can offer to the public. Lobbyiest ask to mandate faster speeds. I ask to spread the fiber strands around to multiple providers, to restore competition, share/distribute costs at cost, and repait the broken market, so the market can once again be relied on to drive affordable bandwdith. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Someone once asked me what was in their area, so I looked. There were I'm recalling at least 4 major international carriers right in their town must have been a landing station. It pays to know what's in your area. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Yeah, agreed It may not save money to do a 10 hop wireless backhaul, considering colo costs. But why must the full path be done by either wireless versus fiber? Why not hybrid? My point being, if it can be justified doing fiber will save, sure go for fiber. But I ask, how much of that fiber path could be sahred amongst multiple projects? And at what point does the rurality get to rural, where the benefit of Fiber speeds no longer be advantageous, to that segment? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Fiber definately has its place and advantages. Nobody will deny that. Another point of view is... How quickly can you get a grant or loan application written for Wireless versus fiber? How realistic is it to pull off your fiber plan versus Wireless, any time soon? How quickly can you reap the benefits of the plan? These things need to be considered. I can go online and within 24 hours, have a pretty good idea of atleast one tower for evey hop along the way, with a pretty good idea of cost, to start planning, to just about anywhere. This data is available to us both by experience, vendors databases, and Topo maps. When it comes to Fiber, there are so many unforseen barriers, when one is not a ILEC. WISPs are at a HUGE advantage when they do not have the easement/permit/right-of-way rights that an ILEC has. How realisitic is it that a typical WISP can actually implement deployment and own their fiber? At minimum at least requries CLEC status. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Have you priced building your own fiber? If costs are that high and fiber transport is that scarce then you could certainly find many who would buy an exit ramp on your information super-highway if you build your own fiber. It has a life cycle of up to 30 plus years so you should be able to stretch out the loan over many years. I am looking at this myself. I think that it makes sense on long runs like this to consider fiber. Pricing has come down considerably. Just my 2 cents worth. Scriv On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
YEs, of course. That was always my arguement of why wireless manufacturers needed to lower their prices on Gigabit wireless technology. It will almost always be cheaper to do it with laying your own fiber, when you can, preventing high volume mainstream acceptance of high capacity wireless. But the cost per ft of Fiber is not the core cost, after considering all deployment csots. Some have reported to be able to do Fiber as low as $6000/mile, but at the same time claim that it usually costs much more, and can cost as much as $15,000/mile. For budgeting purposes most have recommended to never use a average cost per mile anything less than $10,000 per mile. And signficantly more for Urban. If you look at all costs, that 20 miles, is probably going to cost you $200,000 not $24,000. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth That comes to $24,288 for 20 miles aerial fiber with 64 strands. Obviously this does not include easements, make ready, labor, etc. but obviously the costs to put in fiber have dropped considerably over the last few years. What brand fiber / supplier quoted you this if you do not mind me asking? Thanks, Scriv On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 1:48 PM, D. Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: I was just quoted .23 per foot for 64 strands. Figure 8 type construction. Dry, loose tube. ryan -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 12:20 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth What is the cost of aerial fiber these days? I know it depends on number of strands and technology, so if someone were going to do this in a small city, what type would you want to use? Around here, the electric company gets around $8/yr/pole to use their poles. Under normal conditions, how many poles are there in a mile. I pay $1325/mth for two T1's from ACC. I am in a rural cooperative area, and the loop cost account for 2/3's of that to go about 40 miles. The local rural telco priced me fiber at $2500/mth for 10/10 meg, and a $2500 install fee. They now have metro ethernet and I can get 6/6 meg for $1300/mth. I will probably go this route soon, if I can not find a better alternative. Cable co. is privately owned here and the owner despises us, so that is OOTQ. I can get a shot to fiber 16 miles north that is $1500/mth for 10/10 meg from a public cable company. I will need to rent tower space at one end and buy the backhaul equipment, plus being in very stormy area, have to worry about lightning 8 - 10 months out of the year. I can not see me coming out this way at a savings of $1000/mth for quite sometime. Most tower companies here are Crown Castle and other big names that ask cell phone company rates to get on their towers which are at least $750/mth. Their are other alternatives I have not explored, such as building my own tower at the other end, or renting from the cable company tower that may be much cheaper. The fiber route mentioned had me interested. It is about 20 miles by road to the same location that the 16 miles shot is. I know the cost will be way higher, but I could then use the fiber in the towns along the way to offer service. About 5 miles of this road way area does not have any broadband at all. I could also offer an alternative to the local rural telcos fiber, which has 0 competition at this point. And last but not least, I would worry much less about lightning. As fiber looks to be the way of the future if we want to stay in business, it is something to look at that is not out of the question. I just do not have any idea about the costs of laying the fiber. We have our own bucket trucks and work crew, so that cost is already incurred. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Blake Bowers bbow...@mozarks.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:12:39 -0500 A lot of this is educational for me, but I do have a couple of thoughts. If you are having to hop microwave 10 hops to get to your intended target, would it not be possible to put an AP on each tower along the way, providing service to those areas also, to help subsidize the costs? And what about aerial fiber? There is a LOT of it in use around here. Yes, you would have pole attachment fees, but most of you are pretty good at coming up with deals involving providing bandwidth etc to the people who own the poles. Just some thoughts, probably not worth what you are paying for them. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net To: sc
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
I was referring to POPs, where they will sell bandwidth. Obviously your chances in the middle of the line are slim unless you're buying big pipes (gig+). These companies are in the transit business, not the retail broadband. That's one reason I avoid recommending buying from ATT, Verizon, etc. I agree with a lot of what you said. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 3:26 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth It doesn't matter how many are in town, if none of them will give you access. The fact is... Nobody will sell you access to their Fiber near cost to deploy it, when it will only allow you to compete against their own retail services. They will only give you a cost that will allow you to be a bit more expensive than their own service. Secondly, the cost models listed are on last generation models, not future generation models. Sure 1000 users can be served with 20mbps in the past. But can it when the users now each have 5 mb uploads and 20 mbps downloads? When you start hitting 100mbps because one is going after large anchor tenants whom might actually use badnwdith, The $200/mb Bandwidth doesn't translate the same. The issue is... How do you grow over the next 5 years to deliver the fast speeds that consumers will eventually desire? My opinion is two fold One does invest and build their own Wireless Backhauls, even if it costs more in the short term. The reason is that once you have, you'll have the leverage to buy Fiber cheaper, in the future. If they won't sell it cheaper, take the fiber carrier's customers by under selling them, until they lower their price. And when Fiber is deployed via grants, lobby for the deployers to get priority, if they sell Fibers to third parties at cost, at a lower cost than the managed service. So more providers can get dark fiber equivellent to the cost, so competition is being created at the same time. If 64 strands exist, buying acccess to 1 strand should be 1/64th of the cost to lay that fiber bundle. In most markets the cost of a Dark Fiber strand is far greater than a managed service that specificall limits the potential of the buyer. Fiber will never benefit small WISPs until small WISPs get rid of the upstream that purposely limits their potential and value they can offer to the public. Lobbyiest ask to mandate faster speeds. I ask to spread the fiber strands around to multiple providers, to restore competition, share/distribute costs at cost, and repait the broken market, so the market can once again be relied on to drive affordable bandwdith. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Someone once asked me what was in their area, so I looked. There were I'm recalling at least 4 major international carriers right in their town must have been a landing station. It pays to know what's in your area. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Between towers we have AN50s. They were at least $6,000 when they were put up - I'm sure it took months for that ROI but the worst part is the upkeep. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.netwrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
It's the economies of it all in so many places. Many areas will require the construction of 100+ foot towers. At what, $10 to $20k per tower (complete install), even for a small one that won't hold many antennas. Then there are hills, mountains, permitting issues etc. I know I can get a fiber connection to Spokane and I can get it fairly cheaply. But it's still 3 to 4x what I'm paying for my bandwidth today. Just for the loop, forget the cost of data, no matter how cheap, from there. I asked Century Tel what it would cost to rent dark fiber from them. They laughed at me. Spokane is only 75 or so miles from here. But I'd need 1 hop to get out of town, at least 5 or 6 to get to the edge of Spokane, then 2 or 3 more to get down to the telco hotel there. IF I could even get BW on the roof (probably could but I don't know what the cost per month would be). We all look at these options all of the time. I just got the last bit of hardware that I'll need to link my Grant Co. and Lincoln Co. networks together. This will give me the ONLY backup link into Odessa. It'll also give me access to cheaper bandwidth here (after I upgrade to better faster backhauls on all of the towers between the two networks). We'll get there eventually. marlon - Original Message - From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 6:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
A few areas it's just not available. The rest... lack of knowledge of what's in the area and how to get at it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Have to pay for tower space and colo charges and possibly cross connect fees and after that your router and bandwidth come from another city That coupled with the most important ingredient of your business now with less reliability than local fiber and more jitter and latency Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x102 On Mar 21, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Someone once asked me what was in their area, so I looked. There were I'm recalling at least 4 major international carriers right in their town must have been a landing station. It pays to know what's in your area. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Where did you look? Mike Hammett wrote: Someone once asked me what was in their area, so I looked. There were I'm recalling at least 4 major international carriers right in their town must have been a landing station. It pays to know what's in your area. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John Vogel - jvo...@vogent.net http://www.vogent.net 620-754-3907 Vogel Enterprises LLC Information Services Provider serving S.E. Kansas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Charles, I would love to live in the world you describe here. :) Bandwidth cost dwarfs credit card processing cost where I live. It also seems very optimistic to put 1000 customers on a 20mb link. At best, I would think that if they are consuming ~20mbps, that you should have at least twice that in capacity, so that means a full DS3, and the best pricing I have gotten on a DS3 is in excess of $6k (and getting to that requires a 25 mile wireless hop). In many areas of the country, $300-400/mbps is the rule for Nx/T1s. John Charles Wu wrote: Hi Hal, In the grand scheme of things...bandwidth / port costs are a minute fraction of an ISP/WISPs operating expenses (heck, I find that for a residential WISP...the credit card processing bill can be higher than the bandwidth bill) That said, look at it this way Based on our studies/trending...1,000 residential subscribers consume ~20 Mb of bandwidth So...1,000 customers @ $40 / month = $40k / month in revenue If you're getting hosed and paying $200 / Mb, that's still only $4k / month Now...say there's a datacenter 40 miles away that has bandwidth for $50 / Mb -- that's a total of $3k / month in savings -- John Vogel - jvo...@vogent.net http://www.vogent.net 620-754-3907 Vogel Enterprises LLC Information Services Provider serving S.E. Kansas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Agreed we have a tad more than a 1000 wireless subs and we hit our cap nightly @ 30megs. And I try like hell to avoid the power users. J. Vogel wrote: Charles, I would love to live in the world you describe here. :) Bandwidth cost dwarfs credit card processing cost where I live. It also seems very optimistic to put 1000 customers on a 20mb link. At best, I would think that if they are consuming ~20mbps, that you should have at least twice that in capacity, so that means a full DS3, and the best pricing I have gotten on a DS3 is in excess of $6k (and getting to that requires a 25 mile wireless hop). In many areas of the country, $300-400/mbps is the rule for Nx/T1s. John Charles Wu wrote: Hi Hal, In the grand scheme of things...bandwidth / port costs are a minute fraction of an ISP/WISPs operating expenses (heck, I find that for a residential WISP...the credit card processing bill can be higher than the bandwidth bill) That said, look at it this way Based on our studies/trending...1,000 residential subscribers consume ~20 Mb of bandwidth So...1,000 customers @ $40 / month = $40k / month in revenue If you're getting hosed and paying $200 / Mb, that's still only $4k / month Now...say there's a datacenter 40 miles away that has bandwidth for $50 / Mb -- that's a total of $3k / month in savings WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Co$t! 35 miles as a crow flys to the nearest fiber facility. Worse yet, only one major provider there and they are expensive. -RickG On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.netwrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
In my neck of the woods there is no dark fiber for rent, and I'm 185 miles from the nearest fiber facility. We have to backhaul a DS3 nearly 50 miles, then cross connect it into Qwest land from CenturyTel land into the qwest ATM cloud. THEN I have a fat UBR pipe to a Tier 2. I have no other way. FYI bandwidth is well over 300 a meg for me. I'd love a microwave shot to somewhere but towers are few in this area and I have a few demanding SLA grade customers on local links here to depend on a microwave shot. Ryan On Mar 21, 2009 10:35am, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Co$t! 35 miles as a crow flys to the nearest fiber facility. Worse yet, only one major provider there and they are expensive. -RickG On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.netwrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
What you need Rick, is one of these bad boys: http://www.directionaldrills.com/imageview.php?product=251 Then all you have to do is drill your way past the incumbant. (this is supposed to be humorous) RickG wrote: Co$t! 35 miles as a crow flys to the nearest fiber facility. Worse yet, only one major provider there and they are expensive. -RickG On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.netwrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
Because it's 200+ miles away and crosses state lines. It would be at least 10 hops. Tower space is roughly $250/month around here so that's $2,500 per month just for the towers... then you have maintenance, equipment cost ($100k) and it would only save me about $1,000 per month. Travis Microserv Harold Bledsoe wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cost of bandwidth
LOL! I'd like to use it on their CO :) On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 1:04 PM, George Rogato wi...@oregonfast.net wrote: What you need Rick, is one of these bad boys: http://www.directionaldrills.com/imageview.php?product=251 Then all you have to do is drill your way past the incumbant. (this is supposed to be humorous) RickG wrote: Co$t! 35 miles as a crow flys to the nearest fiber facility. Worse yet, only one major provider there and they are expensive. -RickG On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Harold Bledsoe hbled...@deliberant.net wrote: Those of you that are paying $50/Mbps, what is keeping you from building your own backhaul to cheaper bandwidth (wireless, dark fiber, etc.)? It seems to me that this would be a major consideration in the business plan as this is a big MRC. Don't wait for someone to bring you cheap bandwidth...go get it! :-) -Hal WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
