Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
It's probably just blind luck. The yagi may have it's side lobes in a different place. Also, look at some of the antenna patterns here: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/antenna/how_to_pick_the_right_antenna.htm They are all different. But the worst ones to use, by far, are grids. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yabut, a dish concentrates the forward radiation. So does a panel, a slot antenna, and many others. I just wondered why you thought a Yagi solved your problem. A 2.4G yagi has large diameter elements compared to wavelength, not like the old VHF Yagi's, but are prone to icing in the winter up north. What magic did you find in the Yagi? Just curious. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do! Ricky Ricardo At 09:31 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: Because yagi antenna concentrates the forward radiation and response. -Lucy :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note 09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
2009/10/18 Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com: On some of our 5 gig I have gone as high as a 3' dish for a customer on a ptmp system. He's around 15 miles from the tower and gets a steady 3/2 megs. The max that his Alvarion VL unit will allow. Pretty cool stuff. marlon There is a VL unit with an external antenna? I haven't been able to find such a beast. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Um, kinda. The case on the 19dB panel units just snaps together. A few screws later and the antenna is removed. There is an MCX connector inside. I then drill a hole in the case, install a pig tail, and I have a high quality high availability solution that fits the market's ouch point. I can do a high end 5.8 gig like that's 15 miles ptmp for $600, installed. And I finally MAKE a little bit of money on an install. I've got 5 or 6 of them out there now, some for over a year now. So far so good. marlon - Original Message - From: Jeremy Parr jeremyp...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy 2009/10/18 Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com: On some of our 5 gig I have gone as high as a 3' dish for a customer on a ptmp system. He's around 15 miles from the tower and gets a steady 3/2 megs. The max that his Alvarion VL unit will allow. Pretty cool stuff. marlon There is a VL unit with an external antenna? I haven't been able to find such a beast. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
The Alvarion can go faster with an inexpensive software speed change key. They aren't free unfortunately, but still a little cheaper than a reinstallation upgrade. The VL radios can be upgraded inhouse to have connectors for antennas. If you have any broken VL AUs or B backhaul radios, you can re-use the case parts to make an older style SU without an antenna. Do remove or cover over the label so you are not confused about what it is. Writing down the mac address is good too, as it's needed for the factory reset utility. Newer SUs you can pop the antenna off with knife/screwdrivers/puttyknife, drill out a hole for a pigtail right where the green rohs sticker is on the bottom; the same spot as the 900SUs have. Various third party companies sell pigtails that are a perfect fit. I don't know the internal connector name right off hand. Then pop the antenna cover back on, and it looks like a 900SU. Warranty likely voided, but we tend not to have much trouble with their products, so it's a small risk. On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:47:19AM -0400, Jeremy Parr wrote: 2009/10/18 Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com: On some of our 5 gig I have gone as high as a 3' dish for a customer on a ptmp system. He's around 15 miles from the tower and gets a steady 3/2 megs. The max that his Alvarion VL unit will allow. Pretty cool stuff. marlon There is a VL unit with an external antenna? I haven't been able to find such a beast. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
So I go back out to the customer to do some testing. Customers router is on channel 11 and I am on 5. The client radio can see two of my AP's, one on channel 5 and the other on 6. The tower I am connected to now is 2.7miles away @ 324 degrees and the other tower is 5.5 miles @ 355 degrees. I tried turning to left of the tower, away from the distant tower till I was @ about -70 and I get the same result. Here is something I find interesting. I started a constant ping to the AP and the border router. I can RDP to my monitoring server and connect to my exchange server in the office while getting no ping response but cannot browse. If the pings start responding, I can browse. The pings will respond for a minute or so then stop for a few minutes. I am not seeing this at my other customers on this AP. Still think multipath? I tried to connect to the distant AP with a signal @ -80 but it did not want to associate. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
OK, lots of stuff here... First, I NEVER use channel 5, 6, or 7. I rarely use 4 or 8 either. Any time I find a client router on anything other than 6 I move it. MOST home routers default to channel 6, so that's a good thing to stay far far away from. You should be able to easily connect to something that's got a -80 signal. What is the signal level at the AP? Do they match what the cpe is seeing? At least close to the same? OK, next test. Can you ping the radio from the customer's computer? How does it do? Are there any components that have NOT been changed out yet? I've seen cat5 cause some strange things. If you want, put a public ip and temp pass on the ap and cpe and give me a call. I'll see if anything stand out to me. Sometimes another set of eyes makes a lot of difference. Also, have you tried rotating to a different polarity? laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy So I go back out to the customer to do some testing. Customers router is on channel 11 and I am on 5. The client radio can see two of my AP's, one on channel 5 and the other on 6. The tower I am connected to now is 2.7miles away @ 324 degrees and the other tower is 5.5 miles @ 355 degrees. I tried turning to left of the tower, away from the distant tower till I was @ about -70 and I get the same result. Here is something I find interesting. I started a constant ping to the AP and the border router. I can RDP to my monitoring server and connect to my exchange server in the office while getting no ping response but cannot browse. If the pings start responding, I can browse. The pings will respond for a minute or so then stop for a few minutes. I am not seeing this at my other customers on this AP. Still think multipath? I tried to connect to the distant AP with a signal @ -80 but it did not want to associate. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
I had something similar last spring. A client with a Tranzeo connected to a MT AP that could not ping most of the time to the tower or my DNS server. However, Setting at my desk across the wan I could be logged in to the Radio while the pings consistently dropped for my tech at the other end. After multiple Tranzeo radios I built a MT 411a with a Arc Panel and a XR2, the exact same setup and firmware as the tower. Problem Solved. 40 other Tranzeo's on the tower no issues. Even went up the road with one of the radios that would not work at that location and worked with it for 1 hour no problems. Never figured out the issue, but the customer no longer calls and is happy so chalked it up to WIFI Black Magic. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 3:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy So I go back out to the customer to do some testing. Customers router is on channel 11 and I am on 5. The client radio can see two of my AP's, one on channel 5 and the other on 6. The tower I am connected to now is 2.7miles away @ 324 degrees and the other tower is 5.5 miles @ 355 degrees. I tried turning to left of the tower, away from the distant tower till I was @ about -70 and I get the same result. Here is something I find interesting. I started a constant ping to the AP and the border router. I can RDP to my monitoring server and connect to my exchange server in the office while getting no ping response but cannot browse. If the pings start responding, I can browse. The pings will respond for a minute or so then stop for a few minutes. I am not seeing this at my other customers on this AP. Still think multipath? I tried to connect to the distant AP with a signal @ -80 but it did not want to associate. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Is the ACK timeout set weird on the Tranzeo's? Someone had mentioned they couldn't use the UBNT Locos because the ack timeout was limited to 3 miles. Maybe the Tranzeo is at that distance mark. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: I had something similar last spring. A client with a Tranzeo connected to a MT AP that could not ping most of the time to the tower or my DNS server. However, Setting at my desk across the wan I could be logged in to the Radio while the pings consistently dropped for my tech at the other end. After multiple Tranzeo radios I built a MT 411a with a Arc Panel and a XR2, the exact same setup and firmware as the tower. Problem Solved. 40 other Tranzeo's on the tower no issues. Even went up the road with one of the radios that would not work at that location and worked with it for 1 hour no problems. Never figured out the issue, but the customer no longer calls and is happy so chalked it up to WIFI Black Magic. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 3:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy So I go back out to the customer to do some testing. Customers router is on channel 11 and I am on 5. The client radio can see two of my AP's, one on channel 5 and the other on 6. The tower I am connected to now is 2.7miles away @ 324 degrees and the other tower is 5.5 miles @ 355 degrees. I tried turning to left of the tower, away from the distant tower till I was @ about -70 and I get the same result. Here is something I find interesting. I started a constant ping to the AP and the border router. I can RDP to my monitoring server and connect to my exchange server in the office while getting no ping response but cannot browse. If the pings start responding, I can browse. The pings will respond for a minute or so then stop for a few minutes. I am not seeing this at my other customers on this AP. Still think multipath? I tried to connect to the distant AP with a signal @ -80 but it did not want to associate. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
No ACK is fully adjustable and is Mostly auto dependent on the Mileage you set. You need to set the RTS threshold from the Tranzeo default of 3000 to 512 when connecting to a newer release of MT. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 4:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is the ACK timeout set weird on the Tranzeo's? Someone had mentioned they couldn't use the UBNT Locos because the ack timeout was limited to 3 miles. Maybe the Tranzeo is at that distance mark. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com wrote: I had something similar last spring. A client with a Tranzeo connected to a MT AP that could not ping most of the time to the tower or my DNS server. However, Setting at my desk across the wan I could be logged in to the Radio while the pings consistently dropped for my tech at the other end. After multiple Tranzeo radios I built a MT 411a with a Arc Panel and a XR2, the exact same setup and firmware as the tower. Problem Solved. 40 other Tranzeo's on the tower no issues. Even went up the road with one of the radios that would not work at that location and worked with it for 1 hour no problems. Never figured out the issue, but the customer no longer calls and is happy so chalked it up to WIFI Black Magic. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 3:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy So I go back out to the customer to do some testing. Customers router is on channel 11 and I am on 5. The client radio can see two of my AP's, one on channel 5 and the other on 6. The tower I am connected to now is 2.7miles away @ 324 degrees and the other tower is 5.5 miles @ 355 degrees. I tried turning to left of the tower, away from the distant tower till I was @ about -70 and I get the same result. Here is something I find interesting. I started a constant ping to the AP and the border router. I can RDP to my monitoring server and connect to my exchange server in the office while getting no ping response but cannot browse. If the pings start responding, I can browse. The pings will respond for a minute or so then stop for a few minutes. I am not seeing this at my other customers on this AP. Still think multipath? I tried to connect to the distant AP with a signal @ -80 but it did not want to associate. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
I tried everything else and once I put the yagi on no more issues. Not sure on the magic. BTW: It has a radome cover so no icing :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Yabut, a dish concentrates the forward radiation. So does a panel, a slot antenna, and many others. I just wondered why you thought a Yagi solved your problem. A 2.4G yagi has large diameter elements compared to wavelength, not like the old VHF Yagi's, but are prone to icing in the winter up north. What magic did you find in the Yagi? Just curious. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do! Ricky Ricardo At 09:31 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: Because yagi antenna concentrates the forward radiation and response. -Lucy :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note 09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
I dont know about blind or luck, when something doesnt work, I try things until they do :) On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: It's probably just blind luck. The yagi may have it's side lobes in a different place. Also, look at some of the antenna patterns here: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/antenna/how_to_pick_the_right_antenna.htm They are all different. But the worst ones to use, by far, are grids. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yabut, a dish concentrates the forward radiation. So does a panel, a slot antenna, and many others. I just wondered why you thought a Yagi solved your problem. A 2.4G yagi has large diameter elements compared to wavelength, not like the old VHF Yagi's, but are prone to icing in the winter up north. What magic did you find in the Yagi? Just curious. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do! Ricky Ricardo At 09:31 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: Because yagi antenna concentrates the forward radiation and response. -Lucy :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note 09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Really nice article Marlon. Thanks for sharing. No date, when did you write that? At 09:25 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote: It's probably just blind luck. The yagi may have it's side lobes in a different place. Also, look at some of the antenna patterns here: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/antenna/how_to_pick_the_right_antenna.htm They are all different. But the worst ones to use, by far, are grids. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yabut, a dish concentrates the forward radiation. So does a panel, a slot antenna, and many others. I just wondered why you thought a Yagi solved your problem. A 2.4G yagi has large diameter elements compared to wavelength, not like the old VHF Yagi's, but are prone to icing in the winter up north. What magic did you find in the Yagi? Just curious. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do! Ricky Ricardo At 09:31 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: Because yagi antenna concentrates the forward radiation and response. -Lucy :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note 09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
H. 2001 or 2002? It's the HARDEST one I've ever written. That one took months of research. I really lucked out in getting permission from the guy that created the 3d antenna patterns. He and I ended up talking quite a bit (he reviewed the article before it was published as I recall), heck of a nice guy. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Really nice article Marlon. Thanks for sharing. No date, when did you write that? At 09:25 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote: It's probably just blind luck. The yagi may have it's side lobes in a different place. Also, look at some of the antenna patterns here: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/antenna/how_to_pick_the_right_antenna.htm They are all different. But the worst ones to use, by far, are grids. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yabut, a dish concentrates the forward radiation. So does a panel, a slot antenna, and many others. I just wondered why you thought a Yagi solved your problem. A 2.4G yagi has large diameter elements compared to wavelength, not like the old VHF Yagi's, but are prone to icing in the winter up north. What magic did you find in the Yagi? Just curious. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do! Ricky Ricardo At 09:31 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: Because yagi antenna concentrates the forward radiation and response. -Lucy :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note 09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Speaking of longer links. I see people run the same size antennas on all of their installs far too often. I've seen 19dB panels on links that can't be less than 10 to 12 miles. I see 24dB grids on 1 mile links. Here is my rule of thumb. It'll have to change based on YOUR hardware etc. I'm always shooting for that -65 to -75 signal level, at BOTH ends of the link. up to 5 miles, 15dB up to 8 miles, 19dB over 8 miles, 24dB grid. On some of our 5 gig I have gone as high as a 3' dish for a customer on a ptmp system. He's around 15 miles from the tower and gets a steady 3/2 megs. The max that his Alvarion VL unit will allow. Pretty cool stuff. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Reading with interest this thread and especially Marlon's take. I have seen power lines in the Fresnel zone play havoc with a signal. Especially when the wind blows. I have found the same thing regarding placement of the radio. Many times a few feet one way or another just works. I liken it to the black magic of radio propagation. The -60 signal in question CAN be too hot like Marlon intimated. His analysis of the multi-path is probably right on. I don't know what your atmospherics are right now, but this is always the dreaded time of year for me. It has been raining for the past several days. It's colder than usual, and there has been some ducting going on. The leaves are dead on the trees and soaking up that moisture. Installs where I am using knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium aren't as hot as they were a couple weeks ago. The hill I am shooting over has tall grass that is all wet now. The row of trees a mile away I'm shooting over are full of moisture and not diffracting the signal like it was this summer. OK, for some of the voodoo science all this entails, here are some basic observations I've made regarding some of these problem installs. Trees or power lines in the near field that move and are in the Fresnel zone can kill throughput. The signal may look hot, but they can drop packets like mad. Using knife edge diffraction, G seems to work better than B; horizontal better than vertical. Sometimes off pointing an antenna slightly can attenuate a secondary multi-path signal. Always leave a service loop coiled behind an install. CAT5 stretchers are very expensive. It's much easier to make one shorter if needed. I endeavor to make the signal reciprocal, or within 3dB at each end. An alligator station will do nothing except add RF pollution. When doing an install, if possible, I carry a spare long CAT5 cable and a throw away laptop. I try to find the sweet spot before I tack anything down. Like I said, many times this whole thing smacks of black magic. I had a woman call me once from *WAY* too far away. I said, OK, I am going to turn on the light on the tower, tell me if you see it. I see it, she said. Incredulous, and slightly bored, I told her I was going to turn it off and tell me when it goes off. I waited several seconds and turned off the light. Ok, it's off she said. Now I was sitting up and taking notes. I asked her to tell me when it goes back on. She told me. I thought it was absolutely incredible that she could see my tower from where she was. She wanted to move into this old farmhouse, and wasn't going to do it unless she could get Internet access. Guess what? She's one of my most vocal and supportive customers and is almost 12 miles away. Mike At 08:44 AM 10/16/2009, Marlon wrote: Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Because yagi antenna concentrates the forward radiation and response. -Lucy :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Reading with interest this thread and especially Marlon's take. I have seen power lines in the Fresnel zone play havoc with a signal. Especially when the wind blows. I have found the same thing regarding placement of the radio. Many times a few feet one way or another just works. I liken it to the black magic of radio propagation. The -60 signal in question CAN be too hot like Marlon intimated. His analysis of the multi-path is probably right on. I don't know what your atmospherics are right now, but this is always the dreaded time of year for me. It has been raining for the past several days. It's colder than usual, and there has been some ducting going on. The leaves are dead on the trees and soaking up that moisture. Installs where I am using knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium aren't as hot as they were a couple weeks ago. The hill I am shooting over has tall grass that is all wet now. The row of trees a mile away I'm shooting over are full of moisture and not diffracting the signal like it was this summer. OK, for some of the voodoo science all this entails, here are some basic observations I've made regarding some of these problem installs. Trees or power lines in the near field that move and are in the Fresnel zone can kill throughput. The signal may look hot, but they can drop packets like mad. Using knife edge diffraction, G seems to work better than B; horizontal better than vertical. Sometimes off pointing an antenna slightly can attenuate a secondary multi-path signal. Always leave a service loop coiled behind an install. CAT5 stretchers are very expensive. It's much easier to make one shorter if needed. I endeavor to make the signal reciprocal, or within 3dB at each end. An alligator station will do nothing except add RF pollution. When doing an install, if possible, I carry a spare long CAT5 cable and a throw away laptop. I try to find the sweet spot before I tack anything down. Like I said, many times this whole thing smacks of black magic. I had a woman call me once from *WAY* too far away. I said, OK, I am going to turn on the light on the tower, tell me if you see it. I see it, she said. Incredulous, and slightly bored, I told her I was going to turn it off and tell me when it goes off. I waited several seconds and turned off the light. Ok, it's off she said. Now I was sitting up and taking notes. I asked her to tell me when it goes back on. She told me. I thought it was absolutely incredible that she could see my tower from where she was. She wanted to move into this old farmhouse, and wasn't going to do it unless she could get Internet access. Guess what? She's one of my most vocal and supportive customers and is almost 12 miles away. Mike At 08:44 AM 10/16/2009, Marlon wrote: Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Are you using the CPE as a bridge? Or are you using their router as a PPPoE connector? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yes there is an indoor router, but so does every other client I have. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Mike, How high are you up on that tower? I've seen you talk about the light a few times, what are using to trigger it? This is a rotating beacon, right? I might file this away in my future bag of tricks, I think it's an excellent idea for some locations and could save us some time on a site survey if we already know it's all good. Thanks. Bob- By the way, looked at your site a few months back to check out that WI-FI trailer of yours. Man, that is one pimped out WI-FI Mo-Fo! Very nice and professional looking job. My hat is off to you for some good ideas. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Reading with interest this thread and especially Marlon's take. I have seen power lines in the Fresnel zone play havoc with a signal. Especially when the wind blows. I have found the same thing regarding placement of the radio. Many times a few feet one way or another just works. I liken it to the black magic of radio propagation. The -60 signal in question CAN be too hot like Marlon intimated. His analysis of the multi-path is probably right on. I don't know what your atmospherics are right now, but this is always the dreaded time of year for me. It has been raining for the past several days. It's colder than usual, and there has been some ducting going on. The leaves are dead on the trees and soaking up that moisture. Installs where I am using knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium aren't as hot as they were a couple weeks ago. The hill I am shooting over has tall grass that is all wet now. The row of trees a mile away I'm shooting over are full of moisture and not diffracting the signal like it was this summer. OK, for some of the voodoo science all this entails, here are some basic observations I've made regarding some of these problem installs. Trees or power lines in the near field that move and are in the Fresnel zone can kill throughput. The signal may look hot, but they can drop packets like mad. Using knife edge diffraction, G seems to work better than B; horizontal better than vertical. Sometimes off pointing an antenna slightly can attenuate a secondary multi-path signal. Always leave a service loop coiled behind an install. CAT5 stretchers are very expensive. It's much easier to make one shorter if needed. I endeavor to make the signal reciprocal, or within 3dB at each end. An alligator station will do nothing except add RF pollution. When doing an install, if possible, I carry a spare long CAT5 cable and a throw away laptop. I try to find the sweet spot before I tack anything down. Like I said, many times this whole thing smacks of black magic. I had a woman call me once from *WAY* too far away. I said, OK, I am going to turn on the light on the tower, tell me if you see it. I see it, she said. Incredulous, and slightly bored, I told her I was going to turn it off and tell me when it goes off. I waited several seconds and turned off the light. Ok, it's off she said. Now I was sitting up and taking notes. I asked her to tell me when it goes back on. She told me. I thought it was absolutely incredible that she could see my tower from where she was. She wanted to move into this old farmhouse, and wasn't going to do it unless she could get Internet access. Guess what? She's one of my most vocal and supportive customers and is almost 12 miles away. Mike At 08:44 AM 10/16/2009, Marlon wrote: Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Marlon I do not disagree with your assessment but the original installation was a 30ft mast sitting on the roof of the garage and strapped to the eve of the second story roof. This put a 19db radio 20 ft above the roof, given the signal, -80~ and the retries a figured it was shooting through the mass of oak trees. I added 10ft to the mast and to 19db radio went to -56~ so I swapped the radio to a 15db version. This is a 2.7 Mile link. It is going to be rather hard to move. Mark McElvy -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
My radio is the router/PPPoE client. Yes their indoor AP is routing also but I see issue when connected directly with my laptop. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. 573.729.9200 - Office 573.729.9203 - Fax 573.247.9980 - Mobile http://www.accubak.com/ http://www.accubak.net/ Nationwide Internet Access Accurate backups for your critical data! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andy Trimmell Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Are you using the CPE as a bridge? Or are you using their router as a PPPoE connector? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yes there is an indoor router, but so does every other client I have. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Only time I've ever seen something like you're describing is when there was a DNS setting in a Mikrotik when the default DNS servers weren't set correctly. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:32 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy My radio is the router/PPPoE client. Yes their indoor AP is routing also but I see issue when connected directly with my laptop. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. 573.729.9200 - Office 573.729.9203 - Fax 573.247.9980 - Mobile http://www.accubak.com/ http://www.accubak.net/ Nationwide Internet Access Accurate backups for your critical data! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andy Trimmell Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Are you using the CPE as a bridge? Or are you using their router as a PPPoE connector? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yes there is an indoor router, but so does every other client I have. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Make sure you have updated the Tranzeo MT to 4.0.5 Firmware. If they are 4.0.2 there is a DHCP routing issue. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andy Trimmell Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Only time I've ever seen something like you're describing is when there was a DNS setting in a Mikrotik when the default DNS servers weren't set correctly. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:32 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy My radio is the router/PPPoE client. Yes their indoor AP is routing also but I see issue when connected directly with my laptop. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. 573.729.9200 - Office 573.729.9203 - Fax 573.247.9980 - Mobile http://www.accubak.com/ http://www.accubak.net/ Nationwide Internet Access Accurate backups for your critical data! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andy Trimmell Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Are you using the CPE as a bridge? Or are you using their router as a PPPoE connector? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yes there is an indoor router, but so does every other client I have. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
About a dozen on this sector. No -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Spott Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Yes there is an indoor router, but so does every other client I have. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Is the AP and Router broadcasting on the same channel? If the CPQ is on the other side of the wall from the router and hearing it on channel 1 at -40 it's tough to hear the AP on channel 1 at -60. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Yes there is an indoor router, but so does every other client I have. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
That doesn't help But make sure they aren't within 3 or 4 channels of each other, certainly not within two channels. marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy That is 2.4 - is there an indoor WiFi router on the other side of the wall causing interference? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com wrote: How many subs on the tower? Is the tower linked to a CPE that is linked to your main tower (poor mans repeater?) ryan On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Marlon, Since when is a -60 too hot of a signal? If you look at the spec sheets for testing on most of the wireless cards, you will see that -60 is their "ideal" signal. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: "Mark McElvy" mmce...@accubak.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Poppycock! Here's the root of the problem. All of the WiFi devices that I know of handle the authentication and admin functions at the 1 meg level. Maybe g handles it at 6 meg but it's still the *most sensitive* level. Most multipath is knife edge. The signal bounces off of a wire, the peak of a roof, the corner of a metal building etc. That signal is usually about 30dB less than the main signal. So, what happens when you have a -60 signal with a -90 echo (multipath for audio) into a device that has a receive sensitivity of -96? According to Ubiquity the NS2 has a 54 meg receive sensitivity of -74. It's 6 meg is -94 and it's 1 meg is an amazing -97! So really, anything over a -67 signal level opens the door to a lot of multipath for a lot of things that go on. Want to test this theory? Turn the power DOWN on the ap and cpe. Drop it to -70 or so on both ends and see what the performance does. I just installed a link to day. -82 signal (to one of my WORST ap's), 15ish mile link. The customer got 3 megs down and 3 up. A better signal would have certainly helped, but -60 wouldn't make up for the distance that much. What a -60 at the cpe would have indicated is that my ap's will be much more likely to interfere with each other. Every time I think I know what the geography around here is like I find another situation where my ap's see each other where I thought it totally impossible. Just yesterday I picked up a system that's got 17db into an 8db omni. The recieving system was a MT with an xr2 and 8dB omni. The two systems were over 20 MILES apart, probably closer to 30, I've not run the numbers yet. If the signal levels were too high I'd be my own worst source of interference on these two systems! The idea that too much is never enough only works well for hotrods and bombs. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, Since when is a -60 too hot of a signal? If you look at the spec sheets for testing on most of the wireless cards, you will see that -60 is their ideal signal. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path? This looks a LOT like multipath. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Installing a new customer, Tranzeo CPQ-19 to a MT AP, -60 signal up/dn, -102 noise. About half the time I don't get name resolution and can't browse pages. This happens with two different radios. It is kind of acting like I am loosing routing or something. I also notice I will get very high ping times sporadically along with drop pings. Best of my knowledge no one else having issue on this AP, about a dozen users. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
