Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
The feedback was quick http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ and consistent http://www.nabble.com/RFC%3A-File-vitality-td17042627.html#a17042627: Marking files vital by default is a good thing. So in the next weekly release of WiX, files will get the msidbFileAttributesVital attribute http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa368596%28VS.85%29.aspx by default. The FilesVitalByDefault property and -fdvital switch have been removed; in their place, SuppressFilesVitalByDefault and -sfdvital turn off the default vital behavior. Bob Arnson wrote: I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. -- sig://boB http://joyofsetup.com/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
I'd vote for on by default. In our installers, the files that aren't vital could still cause problems overall if they weren't present. For example, the help docs aren't vital because the product doesn't need them to work, but it would be very annoying for the user if they can't find them when needed. There are several other files, in several other products, which aren't needed, but result in some form of lost functionality/ability/support if absent. Rob Bob Arnson wrote: I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
Just allow it to be set on a higher level, like componentGroup componentGroup ... unspecifiedVital=yes On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Rob Hamflett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd vote for on by default. In our installers, the files that aren't vital could still cause problems overall if they weren't present. For example, the help docs aren't vital because the product doesn't need them to work, but it would be very annoying for the user if they can't find them when needed. There are several other files, in several other products, which aren't needed, but result in some form of lost functionality/ability/support if absent. Rob Bob Arnson wrote: I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
Looking at that forum thread, I have seen something similar, and it only affects the Files-In-Use dialog, NOT the actual file (that is not in use). The affected file never (in the instances I have seen, when I told Files-In-Use to ignore) was either a source of a conflict dialog nor a cause of actual reboot. The only two types of support calls we received from this scenario are 1) from those that see Files-In-Use and freak out, calling support to ask why uninstall and/or upgrade should require a reboot when they had shut down the application already, and 2) from those that clicked Ignore and then called Support to log a bug because there was no reboot (since they expected one). I was a long time ago surprised that the Vital setting wasn't on by default. I would vote for on by default, and revert the default setting to off via candle command-line switch. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Painter Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:39 AM To: Neil Sleightholm; WiX-users Subject: Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality As I said, that failing install is going to generate a report call either way. In this scenario, the install may actually succeed and thereby avoid that support call. Also if that file is critical an installed product could possibly still launch the program which in turn could perform it's own health check and cause a repair. During that repair it could be possible that whatever is causing the problem would be gone or it could be that you get into a repair loop. Regardless your probably going to be getting that support call anyways. The question I would ask, is just how often does this scenario happen anyways? Are we talking about a .0001% chance of happening? It's quite possibly not even worth the time spent on the discussion. 2systems.com wrote: I would suggest this presumes that the person doing the install knows what they are doing! In a corporate environment that may be true and in that case you could build installs with vital off (having said that most of our installs are run silently so failing is a better option). I think the install failing is preferable to having a support call because one vital file is missing. Neil From: Christopher Painter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 May 2008 14:48 To: Neil Sleightholm; WiX-users Subject: Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality There is a recent PSDK.MSI thread where Simon Scott suspects a FilesInUse pattern bug: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.platformsdk.msi/browse_threa d/thread/17f76202ee2b2742/dc061211ad4db61a?lnk=raot He thinks MSI is having a false positive on a locked file and that pressing ignore results in a successful instalation. In this scenario, making all component files vital by default would actually result in a blocked installation. It would be difficult to predict in advance of shipping a product which files might trip this possible bug so IMHO it might be best to leave vital not set and let the administrator roll the dice when choosing to hit ignore, retry or cancel. If you don't, you'll be getting the support call anyways since the install rolled back. Neil Sleightholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would vote for make vital true by default with the option of setting it off via the command line. I have never really thought there are many occasions when making a file optional would be ok. I would guess that a lot of installs (mine included) don't set this but that clicking ignore would actually break the install. Neil Neil Sleightholm X2 Systems Limited [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Arnson Sent: 04 May 2008 05:04 To: WiX-users Subject: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. -- sig://boB http://joyofsetup.com/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/j avaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
Bob, From my POV, I'd say that having the option on should be the default, but allow for it to be disabled. I don't know if it is a good idea or not... but it might also be nice to have a way to disable the option easily for multiple files, but not necessarily all files, in a WiX fragment - I.e. within a Component or Directory, have a mechanism to say files associated with this do not need msidbFileAttributesVital, rather than having to set it for each file individually. Obviously if anything of the type were implemented, explicit settings in a File element should always take precedence. Just my initial thoughts Regards, Richard -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Arnson Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:04 AM To: WiX-users Subject: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. -- - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/j avaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users * C O N F I D E N T I A L I T Y N O T I C E * --- The content of this e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, be aware that forwarding it, copying it, or in any way disclosing its content to any other person, is strictly prohibited. Quixote Traffic Corporation is neither liable for the contents, nor for the proper, complete and timely transmission of (the information contained in) this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail immediately and delete the material from any computer. - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
I'd say there's a 90+% chance we'd be getting that support call anyway, just because the message appeared in the first place! For some reason our customers always assume that because it's our installation, anything that goes wrong *has* to be our fault... even when they haven't followed the instructions we gave them. :-) Regards, Richard From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Painter Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:48 AM To: Neil Sleightholm; WiX-users Subject: SPAM Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality There is a recent PSDK.MSI thread where Simon Scott suspects a FilesInUse pattern bug: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.platformsdk.msi/browse_t hread/thread/17f76202ee2b2742/dc061211ad4db61a?lnk=raot He thinks MSI is having a false positive on a locked file and that pressing ignore results in a successful instalation. In this scenario, making all component files vital by default would actually result in a blocked installation. It would be difficult to predict in advance of shipping a product which files might trip this possible bug so IMHO it might be best to leave vital not set and let the administrator roll the dice when choosing to hit ignore, retry or cancel. If you don't, you'll be getting the support call anyways since the install rolled back. * C O N F I D E N T I A L I T Y N O T I C E * --- The content of this e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, be aware that forwarding it, copying it, or in any way disclosing its content to any other person, is strictly prohibited. Quixote Traffic Corporation is neither liable for the contents, nor for the proper, complete and timely transmission of (the information contained in) this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail immediately and delete the material from any computer. - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
I would vote for make vital true by default with the option of setting it off via the command line. I have never really thought there are many occasions when making a file optional would be ok. I would guess that a lot of installs (mine included) don't set this but that clicking ignore would actually break the install. Neil Neil Sleightholm X2 Systems Limited [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Arnson Sent: 04 May 2008 05:04 To: WiX-users Subject: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. -- sig://boB http://joyofsetup.com/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/j avaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
There is a recent PSDK.MSI thread where Simon Scott suspects a FilesInUse pattern bug: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.platformsdk.msi/browse_thread/thread/17f76202ee2b2742/dc061211ad4db61a?lnk=raot He thinks MSI is having a false positive on a locked file and that pressing ignore results in a successful instalation. In this scenario, making all component files vital by default would actually result in a blocked installation. It would be difficult to predict in advance of shipping a product which files might trip this possible bug so IMHO it might be best to leave vital not set and let the administrator roll the dice when choosing to hit ignore, retry or cancel. If you don't, you'll be getting the support call anyways since the install rolled back. Neil Sleightholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would vote for make vital true by default with the option of setting it off via the command line. I have never really thought there are many occasions when making a file optional would be ok. I would guess that a lot of installs (mine included) don't set this but that clicking ignore would actually break the install. Neil Neil Sleightholm X2 Systems Limited [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Arnson Sent: 04 May 2008 05:04 To: WiX-users Subject: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. -- sig://boB http://joyofsetup.com/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/j avaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
I would suggest this presumes that the person doing the install knows what they are doing! In a corporate environment that may be true and in that case you could build installs with vital off (having said that most of our installs are run silently so failing is a better option). I think the install failing is preferable to having a support call because one vital file is missing. Neil From: Christopher Painter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 May 2008 14:48 To: Neil Sleightholm; WiX-users Subject: Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality There is a recent PSDK.MSI thread where Simon Scott suspects a FilesInUse pattern bug: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.platformsdk.msi/browse_t hread/thread/17f76202ee2b2742/dc061211ad4db61a?lnk=raot He thinks MSI is having a false positive on a locked file and that pressing ignore results in a successful instalation. In this scenario, making all component files vital by default would actually result in a blocked installation. It would be difficult to predict in advance of shipping a product which files might trip this possible bug so IMHO it might be best to leave vital not set and let the administrator roll the dice when choosing to hit ignore, retry or cancel. If you don't, you'll be getting the support call anyways since the install rolled back. Neil Sleightholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would vote for make vital true by default with the option of setting it off via the command line. I have never really thought there are many occasions when making a file optional would be ok. I would guess that a lot of installs (mine included) don't set this but that clicking ignore would actually break the install. Neil Neil Sleightholm X2 Systems Limited [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Arnson Sent: 04 May 2008 05:04 To: WiX-users Subject: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here: http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/ The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post comments or mail on this list. -- sig://boB http://joyofsetup.com/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/j avaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/j avaone ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62 sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20 - This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
As I said, that failing install is going to generate a report call either way.
In this scenario, the install may actually succeed and thereby avoid that
support call. Also if that file is critical an installed product could
possibly still launch the program which in turn could perform it's own health
check and cause a repair. During that repair it could be possible that
whatever is causing the problem would be gone or it could be that you get into
a repair loop.
Regardless your probably going to be getting that support call anyways. The
question I would ask, is just how often does this scenario happen anyways?
Are we talking about a .0001% chance of happening? It's quite possibly not
even worth the time spent on the discussion.
2systems.com wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
I would suggest this presumes that the person doing the install knows
what they are doing! In a corporate environment that may be true and in that
case you could build installs with vital off (having said that most of our
installs are run silently so failing is a better option). I think the install
failing is preferable to having a support call because one vital file is
missing.
Neil
From: Christopher Painter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 04 May 2008 14:48
To: Neil Sleightholm; WiX-users
Subject: Re: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
There is a recent PSDK.MSI thread where Simon Scott suspects a FilesInUse
pattern bug:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.platformsdk.msi/browse_thread/thread/17f76202ee2b2742/dc061211ad4db61a?lnk=raot
He thinks MSI is having a false positive on a locked file and that pressing
ignore results in a successful instalation. In this scenario, making all
component files vital by default would actually result in a blocked
installation.
It would be difficult to predict in advance of shipping a product which
files might trip this possible bug so IMHO it might be best to leave vital not
set and let the administrator roll the dice when choosing to hit ignore, retry
or cancel. If you don't, you'll be getting the support call anyways since the
install rolled back.
Neil Sleightholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would vote for make vital true by default with the option of setting
it off via the command line. I have never really thought there are many
occasions when making a file optional would be ok. I would guess that a
lot of installs (mine included) don't set this but that clicking
ignore would actually break the install.
Neil
Neil Sleightholm
X2 Systems Limited
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Arnson
Sent: 04 May 2008 05:04
To: WiX-users
Subject: [WiX-users] RFC: File vitality
I just posted a request for comments on my blog, to ask about a change
we're considering to simplify WiX authoring. You can see the post here:
http://www.joyofsetup.com/2008/05/03/rfc-vitality/
The short version is that we're considering marking all files with the
msidbFileAttributesVital bit set by default. That's a behavior change
and we wanted to get feedback before deciding either way. Please read
the whole post and let us know what you think, either via blog post
comments or mail on this list.
--
sig://boB
http://joyofsetup.com/
-
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