Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags
Hi Kay, well as some awesome-looking examples of styled headings, to make them Dave Shea has some nice examples of using Times New Roman, half way through the article at: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/07/24/times_new_ro/ Cheers, --ben http://www.daemon.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags
Oops. You're correct! Maybe I should just let John quote himself! :) Russ Russ, Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, ...how much worse is it to put *content* inside the CSS file? -Hugh Todd :) John Allsopp (one of the original CSS guru's) explains this better than I can... He says If it is bad to put presentation on the page, how much worse is it to put presentation inside the CSS file? It is fundamentally unsound. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Hello, what markup do you think is more appropriate for a navigation with subnavigation (as seen at amazon.com). a) ul liitem one ul lisubitem one/item lisubitem two/item /ul /li liitem two/li /ul b) divitem one | item two/div divsubitem one | subitem two/div Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version b) is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) is also easier for styling with CSS IMO. There was a similar discussion at simplebits, but I haven't found an answer to my question there. http://www.simplebits.com/archives/2004/02/23/sqxii_conclusion.html Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] CSS and PhpNuke
i'd recommend plone (http://plone.org/), but probably because i'm one of the guys at the ui team ;) we're really focusing on accessibility, semantic markup, and flexibility through css. if you have any questions: there are plone irc channels (#plone and #plonedesign (the ui channel) on freenode) and mailinglists (http://plone.org/documentation/lists). regards, michael -- /gro.jiin//:ptth jiin * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Manuel González Noriega wrote: El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 16:54, Tonico Strasser escribió: Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version b) is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) is also easier for styling with CSS IMO. I can see no problems with version a) at all. I want a horizontal graphical navigation like at amazon.com. I find it very hard for styling with CSS. front (never heard screenreaders et al have any problem with nested lists) neither for styling, Ok, version a has no problems with accessibility but what about version b? with well known references such 'Taming Lists' at ALA or Listtutorial at css.maxdesign.au (too lazy to check the URLs now :) I know them, but no one has a submenu. Maybe beacause it is too difficult? Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 19:05, Tonico Strasser escribió: Thanks Manuel, I wonder if version b is less accessible or standards compliant than version a. It would be much easier for me to use version b. If it validates, it's not less standard compliant than anything. As for accessibilty, i would say that nested ul link together parent and children terms. Is it just fashionable to use uls for navigation? Which standard says that a navigation should be a list? There's no standards about semantic writing. It all comes down to general consensus, good practices and ultimately designer's judgement. For me, navigation bars are unordered lists because they *are lists* of terms. I think they could be ols also. And don't get me started on dls ;) Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? Call me a pervert but i get a kick from elegant html sources :D -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Manuel González Noriega wrote: Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? Call me a pervert but i get a kick from elegant html sources :D Ok, me too. Thanks to all for your replies. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file
Jaime,
x-tad-biggerI have been thinking if there are any ways to minimise CSS files as my css files are growing bigger and bigger.There are so many different ways to write the CSS codes but which way is the most efficient way so to save space but still looks neat./x-tad-bigger
x-tad-bigger /x-tad-bigger
x-tad-biggerI haven't been able to find a writeup on this in the net. Anyone has any suggestion?
/x-tad-bigger
I guess its a matter of taste.
Because whitespace is in essence ignored, you can add formatting as you please.
A couple of very common formats are
p {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
}
p {
color: red;
font-size: 1em;
}
p {color: red;
font-size: 1em;}
I kind of like the properties on separate lines, and even tabbing them in to make them more obvious
Now, at the risk of sounding promotional, Style Master, which I am one of the developers of (by the way, it is Australian, for what it's worth, don't let the .com address fool you :-) has a Format Style Sheet feature.
You simply format a dummy rule in the options/preferences window, then you can apply this to any style sheet. Style aster will automatically format your style sheets as you go, when you use its editors.
BTW, we've just upgraded Style Master to 3.5. It's for Mac and Windows, and you can get more information here.
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/
And even though my partner at westciv, Maxine, will kill me (don't tell her ok) for WSG members here is a little special offer.
Get Style Master for US$49.99 instead of $59.99, but only here
https://order.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=WC3
and only for a limited time (until Maxine finds out :-)
thanks,
john
John Allsopp
:: westciv ::
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
http://www.westciv.com/
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Tonico Strasser wrote: Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? the only benefits are: you have the data in it's natural form and semantic markup is automatically perfectly accessible (the only problem would be a stupid (sorry) ua like jaws, but even that is easily solvable). the w3c defined functions for tags. a navigation is naturally a list. so it should be a list, even in the markup and not only visually. they just give you enough freedom to do what you think is better ;) regards, michael -- /gro.jiin//:ptth jiin * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Michael Zeltner wrote: Tonico Strasser wrote: Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? the only benefits are: you have the data in it's natural form and semantic markup is automatically perfectly accessible (the only problem would be a stupid (sorry) ua like jaws, but even that is easily solvable). Please, can you tell me more about the problem with Jaws and how it can be fixed? Thanks. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file
Jaime - Moving to descendant selectors really helped me minimise the amount of classes and ids I ended up using - which saves line space. You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one for navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or however you do it) them all in. Cheers James BTW, is it possible for you to remove that blinking Incredimail icon from your emails (or send them as plain text - not html)? it's very difficult to read your posts with that going off in the corner. I think it breaks the 2hz to 55hz rule :D JW wrote: I have been thinking if there are any ways to minimise CSS files as my css files are growing bigger and bigger.There are so many different ways to write the CSS codes but which way is the most efficient way so to save space but still looks neat. I haven't been able to find a writeup on this in the net. Anyone has any suggestion? With Regards, /Jaime Wong/ ~~~ *SODesires Design Team* http://www.sodesires.com http://www.sodesires.com/ ~~~ http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309lang=9 /IncrediMail/ - *Email has finally evolved* - * Click Here * http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309lang=9 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Tonico Strasser wrote: Please, can you tell me more about the problem with Jaws and how it can be fixed? floats instead of inline elements for navigation. jaws uses ie, and ie renders it as inline element so jaws will read it as inline element. floated blocks (btw, can one float list elements?) will be read differently (afaik. i don't have jaws yet). lets hope new versions will support the new screenreader (just heard of it) media type. regards, michael -- /gro.jiin//:ptth jiin * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques
I'm here John! Really, I'm not the anti-accessibility guy you think I am ... I just believe in good design, and good design has to communicate. In most cases that gels exactly with your own philosophy. :) Congrats on StyleMaster BTW! P On 04/03/2004, at 9:11 AM, John Allsopp wrote: OK, so you don't get an exact font match. I know some people disagree (Peter=Universal Head are you out there) but that is simply not the way of the web. x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques
Thanks Peter, I'm here John! Really, I'm not the anti-accessibility guy you think I am ... I just believe in good design, and good design has to communicate. In most cases that gels exactly with your own philosophy. :) Yeah, I know :-) But I do know the value you place on typography (a thing of beauty don't get me wrong) Congrats on StyleMaster BTW! many thanks, John John Allsopp :: westciv :: software, courses, resources for a standards based web style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ http://www.westciv.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags
Granted, these are just examples by Dave, but this demonstrates why you should always include font-family. My browser defaults to sans serif here, since I don't have Times New Roman. From the font survey link posted yesterday I guess I am one of the 20 odd percent of Linux users who don't have this font. From my experience with Linux Times is the most common. font-family : Times New Roman, Times, serif; Regards Chris Blown Dave Shea has some nice examples of using Times New Roman, half way through the article at: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/07/24/times_new_ro/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] fieldset furphy in IE
Hi In IE in Win32, a background image for a fieldset lines up with the top of the legend tag rather than the top border of the fieldset : background-image - legend -- background-image The top border appears in the middle of the legend as above. In other browsers the background-image with a position of top left; appears within the fieldset borders correctly. Anyone have any ideas about this? Cheers James * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags
The CSS3 content property is a grey semantic area IMHO. If you have hn content in the markup and adjust the presentation in the CSS like colours, fonts and backgrounds, Then what's so unsound about styling the content with an image, this is not content in my mind it is presentation, because it provides ornamentation (what CSS was designed to do) whilst preserving the element it was applied to. If the author ensures the image only does replacement, in other words no extra content is included in the image, then by removing the style sheet you don't lose anything but presentation. I agree with the idea that using the content property for adding content is a bad idea, but using content for replacement is not so bad as everyone is making out. Anyway since only a couple of browsers support this, its not a real alternative, yet... Cheers Chris Blown Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, ...how much worse is it to put *content* inside the CSS file? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file
James Ellis said: You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one for navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or however you do it) them all in. I would have thought that from a general performance perspective, splitting the CSS into too many files would be a bad idea, since each one is going to require an extra HTTP Request/Response to download. That extra traffic will cost you bytes (and time), so if you need all that CSS on the page, you may as well have it all in one file. I normally only use separate files where I have a unique set of definitions for an area of my site. i.e. all files have general.css print.css, some areas also include blog.css (guess which ones :) Just a thought. Beau -- Beau Lebens Information Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dented Reality - www.dentedreality.com.au Information Architecture, Usability, Web Development * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
And don't get me started on dls ;) this bit seems to have been swept under the carpet.. I'm really interested to hear what is wrong with dl's for navigation as, to my pedantic and not so up there with css sort of a mind, it actually seems like a pretty darn good idea to me. Jackie Reid Mock Orange Web Site Development 1st Floor 92 Victoria Street MACKAY Q 4740 Ph: 07 4953 4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Martin Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup And don't get me started on dls ;) Come on then... about the dls ;o) I was going to suggest them, since the inclusion of the dt as well as the dd has its' benefits. However, I know there are some downsides (but I am yet to come across a significant one). Kind regards Martin Chapman -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags
russ weakley wrote: However, all of these image replacement methods have serious downsides that should be explained to designers before they jump on them as a solution. That's my view exactly. Some of the techniques are very good, but there's still nothing I'd want to use on a commercial site, where I think hackery should be kept to a minimum. Not to mention the extra development time - using css for layout is already pushing out the time required for html. Which is why I was looking for resources on fonts and examples of nicely styled headings. I want to prove to the designers that it *can* be done, images not required! Thanks to everyone who responded - much appreciated. We have a local internet industry social group here in Perth (http://www.port-80.net). Last night I heard that the next event will be a designers vs developers debate. Should be funny, although it could possibly end in violence :) K. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file
JW wrote: enough hmm) but somehow still not very please with the overall file size. I heard about using php but just not very sure about the details. maybe some of you might know? PHP is a server side (well, mostly) programming language. Normally used to create HTML markup, but it can be used to create CSS or generate images on demand. Well planned and written CSS is a better solution than using PHP to send the user dynamically generated stylesheet(s) based on the page they are viewing. It means less CPU load on the server. An exception may be if you have several themese and a theme switcher, but even then, Javascript can do that for you without having to learn a new language (although for me, Javascript would be the new language I'd have to learn *grin*). -- /--\ |Adam Carmichael, A+, 2xMCP (Windows 2000), Cert IV Helpdesk Admin | |[EMAIL PROTECTED] /( _,-,_ )\ _| |_ /,|| | |#1 Computer Services \`/ \'/ _| |_|| | |BSD/UNIX Cisco Network Engineer\ /,\ /,\ /| |_||_ | \--/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Ways to minimise CSS file
On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 02:53 PM, Adam Carmichael wrote: Beau wrote: James Ellis said: You could also divide your stylesheet up into different files - one for navigation, one for layout, one for headings etc etc - then link (or however you do it) them all in. I would have thought that from a general performance perspective, splitting the CSS into too many files would be a bad idea, since each one is going to require an extra HTTP Request/Response to download. That extra traffic will cost you bytes (and time), so if you need all that CSS on the page, you may as well have it all in one file. A few hundred bytes at the _very_ most. Considering that most of the time you won't be loading blog.css, screenreader.css, projector.css, print.css and whatever else, you will be saving that transfer time and data easily. In a world of 56K modems even, 300 bytes (let's say you're sending a LOT of http headers [and for a stylesheet why would you?]), would still take under 0.04 seconds to transfer and in a world of broadband, that's even less. Considering that each stylesheet that you won't be loading up will probably contain more than 300 bytes, it's probably more sensible to split it up. Besides, it makes for more manageable CSS when you want to edit it. I totally agree here. However, one area I haven't looked at is how alternate style sheets (eg color/font/layout changes) are handled with there's multiple (cascading) style sheets in play. Style-sheet switching with one file (eg screen.css) is easy. But let's pretend that we've got (for screen media): - base.css (unchanging basic styles) - fonts-a.css | fonts-b.css (two options) - layout-a.css | layout-b.css (two options) - blog.css (specific CSS file for this section) How do style-switching browsers (eg opera), scripts and whatever else handle all that mess? --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] He said she said :-) FIR and other such techniques
OK, I have a question then with most image replacement techniques for headings the content remains in the html eg. h1title here please/h1 But is an image of this text in a pretty font or whatever even content? Isn't it just presentation and therefore the perfect thing for the stylesheet to represent? The content is still there, but we are presenting it differently. I see no difference between this and setting a font colour (ok a small difference but I am trying to make a point). h... discuss John Allsopp wrote: Thanks Peter, I'm here John! Really, I'm not the anti-accessibility guy you think I am ... I just believe in good design, and good design has to communicate. In most cases that gels exactly with your own philosophy. :) Yeah, I know :-) But I do know the value you place on typography (a thing of beauty don't get me wrong) Congrats on StyleMaster BTW! many thanks, John John Allsopp :: westciv :: software, courses, resources for a standards based web style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ http://www.westciv.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Positioning driving me nuts
In my wisdom i have decided to revamp a site that's not even finished yet and now I've broke it!! Why won't the content sit up where it should here http://www.healthpoint.com.au/new2.php want the stuff that starts home new2 to sit up in the middle there and it just won't!! driving me nuts, nuts, nuts. Please help...i keep looking but cant see the wood for the trees. code is here http://www.healthpoint.com.au/css/new.css Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
