Re: [WSG] 508??
Have you looked at the other assistive technologies available? Yes I work closely with our Office for Persons with Disabilities, even presented at their Assistive Technology Fair last year. This year I will as well and sounds like it will be even bigger than last year. There are some very cool technologies out there. England and the other countries requiring accessible web sites state 508 did not meet their requirements for accessible web sites. So, how can we state that Section 508 is the end-all solution when other governments are saying it isn't enough? Not saying it was an end-all, just saying it was a decent place to start. At the very least it is forcing a lot of software developers and web designers to think accessible design. AT developers have the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines they have to follow. There is at least one person from the JAWS team on the working group. Since JAWS uses Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Accessibility Agent, I would hope that Microsoft starts supporting standards better than they do. And that they stop with their proprietary stuff. Netscape has begun to support OBJECT so we don't need to use EMBED/NOEMBED any longer unless you want to support earlier versions. Oh my, do we want to support Netscape 4.x? I don't and don't even come close to trying any longer. That is likely the biggest problem with Assistive technology, it relies on other over priced bloat ware that is unstable at the best of times and refuses to follow any standards properly. Why not move to Moz? Why build Assistive technologies for Linux where you have more control? Oh that is rhetorical. One thing I did notice with a lot of Assistive Technologies is that they rely heavily on Microsoft. I think that is a shame. Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What do browsers download?
Im not 100% sure... but here is what I think a browser would download, in what order.. 1st it would download the HTML code... then any Images in the document... then the DTD... then the Stylesheets... then the Stylesheet images... then 3rd party gear - flash, java, other applets and mods... just my guess... :) John Horner wrote: You mention an ABC internal standard of less than 60kb filesize. How does this work with dynamic pages? There are relatively few dynamic pages on the ABC website, so it doesn't often come up, but of course I'd expect things like search results to be arranged using some sort of paging, with each page a sensible size. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
Jesse, I'll agree it makes them think about it for about ... 10 seconds. Then they go and start using those automated evaluators and mess it all up. I've used every evaluator there is and none come as close to meeting my experience as I would like. You can pass those automated test very easily and then totally ignore some very important elements. One accessibility presentation I went to had a company representative look like a fool when he was showing how JAWS worked with their pages. The designer passed all the automated tests, but failed to lineate the table correctly so JAWS was jumping all around the screen reading things out of order. Yep, Bobby said it passed - Bobby lied too. Yes, much of the Assistive Technology relies upon Microsoft. Didn't you realize that Microsoft doesn't allow anyone access to their core functions? Oh, that's last millennia's news. We should fire the federal judges that ruled in favor of Microsoft. They just gave too much power to Microsoft and I'm not talking their anti-competitive attitudes. I'm talking embedding their browser further into their operating systems. It's going to get to the point that their browser will enable any web site to take control of the computer again ... just like when we used to cause hard drive formats. Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. Thanks, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: J Rodgers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Have you looked at the other assistive technologies available? Yes I work closely with our Office for Persons with Disabilities, even presented at their Assistive Technology Fair last year. This year I will as well and sounds like it will be even bigger than last year. There are some very cool technologies out there. England and the other countries requiring accessible web sites state 508 did not meet their requirements for accessible web sites. So, how can we state that Section 508 is the end-all solution when other governments are saying it isn't enough? Not saying it was an end-all, just saying it was a decent place to start. At the very least it is forcing a lot of software developers and web designers to think accessible design. AT developers have the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines they have to follow. There is at least one person from the JAWS team on the working group. Since JAWS uses Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Accessibility Agent, I would hope that Microsoft starts supporting standards better than they do. And that they stop with their proprietary stuff. Netscape has begun to support OBJECT so we don't need to use EMBED/NOEMBED any longer unless you want to support earlier versions. Oh my, do we want to support Netscape 4.x? I don't and don't even come close to trying any longer. That is likely the biggest problem with Assistive technology, it relies on other over priced bloat ware that is unstable at the best of times and refuses to follow any standards properly. Why not move to Moz? Why build Assistive technologies for Linux where you have more control? Oh that is rhetorical. One thing I did notice with a lot of Assistive Technologies is that they rely heavily on Microsoft. I think that is a shame. Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What do browsers download?
this may sound like a stupid answer but wouldnt it be like an html page of somesort. t94xr http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] 508??
Actually Canada has to accessibility requirements under any law. The Canadian Government has the Common Look and Feel Guidelines and in there they require WAI AA for all Federal Government sites (government workers in Canada correct me please). http://www.cio-dpi.gc.ca/clf-nsi/index_e.asp Ontario (where I am) has the Ontarian with Disabilities Act (2001) but it lacks any real teeth and doesn't suggest anything specific - for uni's we have to come up with a 'plan' and the community is to keep us to it. For UW I have just been promoting the idea of standard code and accessible design and worked with many students with disabilities to determine what features they would like to see. Luckily our pages are mountains of text and static pages... Students use Google to get around and are relatively happy with our pages even though we have done little to make them accessible in the past. It is more a responsibility to the community that is motivating our move to accessible design. I think (not entirely sure) in Canada there is the wild card - Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I have heard a few discussions about how inaccessible websites violate people's rights in Canada, but to my knowledge no court cases yet. It would only take one court case though, and the tide would shift in Canada. Accessible design consultants are just waiting for that I imagine ;) So how does Section 508 effect us? It doesn't. But it is of particular interest since I have seen a couple of the people that worked on it present at conferences. I am not a huge fan of the WCAG, nor am I a fan of those who preach strict adherence without first providing a guide for those who don't understand. The other problem of validators is annoying as well. I was sitting in Tim Hortons in Toronto with Joe Clark listening to him go on how validators can't tell you want you have done right, only what you have done wrong, but even then they are inaccurate - when I thought, this is madness (and no it wasn't just because Joe was ranting) and I haven't seen anything in the past year or so to make me think otherwise. Jesse On 6/30/04 8:47 AM, Lee Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] 508??
That should probably read - 'does not have' - I am fine specimen of the new and improved public education system in Canada ;) I apologize for the bad grammar and typos and place the blame on my 5th grade teacher. Jesse On 6/30/04 9:19 AM, J Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually Canada has to accessibility * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
Section 508 wouldn't exist if it weren't for WCAG. If you can do Section 508 then step up to the plate and do the remainder. Take the extra step, you'll find it's a lot easier. It simply requires opening our minds to the possibilities. Regardless of what some say, Flash is not accessible and never will be. Anything that requires a person to use Microsoft technologies has no regard for the needs of the disabled. Joe definitely does do that at times, but he means well. If I'm in a crunch, I'll use WebQA to get my bearings. However, when it comes to in depth reviews on a page by page basis, I never use automated tools. I review the codes and if need be, I change the border of the tables to border=1 so I see how the text lays out. I've been doing accessibility since 1998. Thank you for explaining Canada's rules. I had thought they required AA, but didn't want to err. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.applepiecart.com http://www.roserockdesign.com -Original Message- From: J Rodgers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Actually Canada has to accessibility requirements under any law. The Canadian Government has the Common Look and Feel Guidelines and in there they require WAI AA for all Federal Government sites (government workers in Canada correct me please). http://www.cio-dpi.gc.ca/clf-nsi/index_e.asp Ontario (where I am) has the Ontarian with Disabilities Act (2001) but it lacks any real teeth and doesn't suggest anything specific - for uni's we have to come up with a 'plan' and the community is to keep us to it. For UW I have just been promoting the idea of standard code and accessible design and worked with many students with disabilities to determine what features they would like to see. Luckily our pages are mountains of text and static pages... Students use Google to get around and are relatively happy with our pages even though we have done little to make them accessible in the past. It is more a responsibility to the community that is motivating our move to accessible design. I think (not entirely sure) in Canada there is the wild card - Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I have heard a few discussions about how inaccessible websites violate people's rights in Canada, but to my knowledge no court cases yet. It would only take one court case though, and the tide would shift in Canada. Accessible design consultants are just waiting for that I imagine ;) So how does Section 508 effect us? It doesn't. But it is of particular interest since I have seen a couple of the people that worked on it present at conferences. I am not a huge fan of the WCAG, nor am I a fan of those who preach strict adherence without first providing a guide for those who don't understand. The other problem of validators is annoying as well. I was sitting in Tim Hortons in Toronto with Joe Clark listening to him go on how validators can't tell you want you have done right, only what you have done wrong, but even then they are inaccurate - when I thought, this is madness (and no it wasn't just because Joe was ranting) and I haven't seen anything in the past year or so to make me think otherwise. Jesse On 6/30/04 8:47 AM, Lee Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] 508??
Hi, Lee would recommend a comprehensive accessibility text. I've scoured Amazon to the point of red eye, and have found nothing but how to pass Bobby. This text should include captioning of Quicktime, and other dynamic media considerations. C On Wednesday, June 30, 2004, at 05:47 AM, Lee Roberts wrote: Jesse, I'll agree it makes them think about it for about ... 10 seconds. Then they go and start using those automated evaluators and mess it all up. I've used every evaluator there is and none come as close to meeting my experience as I would like. You can pass those automated test very easily and then totally ignore some very important elements. One accessibility presentation I went to had a company representative look like a fool when he was showing how JAWS worked with their pages. The designer passed all the automated tests, but failed to lineate the table correctly so JAWS was jumping all around the screen reading things out of order. Yep, Bobby said it passed - Bobby lied too. Yes, much of the Assistive Technology relies upon Microsoft. Didn't you realize that Microsoft doesn't allow anyone access to their core functions? Oh, that's last millennia's news. We should fire the federal judges that ruled in favor of Microsoft. They just gave too much power to Microsoft and I'm not talking their anti-competitive attitudes. I'm talking embedding their browser further into their operating systems. It's going to get to the point that their browser will enable any web site to take control of the computer again ... just like when we used to cause hard drive formats. Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. Thanks, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: J Rodgers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Have you looked at the other assistive technologies available? Yes I work closely with our Office for Persons with Disabilities, even presented at their Assistive Technology Fair last year. This year I will as well and sounds like it will be even bigger than last year. There are some very cool technologies out there. England and the other countries requiring accessible web sites state 508 did not meet their requirements for accessible web sites. So, how can we state that Section 508 is the end-all solution when other governments are saying it isn't enough? Not saying it was an end-all, just saying it was a decent place to start. At the very least it is forcing a lot of software developers and web designers to think accessible design. AT developers have the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines they have to follow. There is at least one person from the JAWS team on the working group. Since JAWS uses Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Accessibility Agent, I would hope that Microsoft starts supporting standards better than they do. And that they stop with their proprietary stuff. Netscape has begun to support OBJECT so we don't need to use EMBED/NOEMBED any longer unless you want to support earlier versions. Oh my, do we want to support Netscape 4.x? I don't and don't even come close to trying any longer. That is likely the biggest problem with Assistive technology, it relies on other over priced bloat ware that is unstable at the best of times and refuses to follow any standards properly. Why not move to Moz? Why build Assistive technologies for Linux where you have more control? Oh that is rhetorical. One thing I did notice with a lot of Assistive Technologies is that they rely heavily on Microsoft. I think that is a shame. Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
Despite some minor flaws, Joe Clark's Building Accessible Websites is still one of the best around. Captioning of quicktime (you mean via SMIL, I assume) is still not widely implemented due to flaky support in certain areas http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2004AprJun/0651.html Of course, you'll never find a single ominous voiceComprehensive Accessibility Text/ominous voice, as the field is constantly evolving and changing. What you can get, though, is books covering the majority of the basis, and follow that up with good practice examples. They're out there, you just need to look in the right places (and frequent lists like the above featured WAI-IG, or forums such as www.accessifyforum.com for instance). Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk -Original Message- From: ckimedia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 June 2004 15:29 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Hi, Lee would recommend a comprehensive accessibility text. I've scoured Amazon to the point of red eye, and have found nothing but how to pass Bobby. This text should include captioning of Quicktime, and other dynamic media considerations. C On Wednesday, June 30, 2004, at 05:47 AM, Lee Roberts wrote: Jesse, I'll agree it makes them think about it for about ... 10 seconds. Then they go and start using those automated evaluators and mess it all up. I've used every evaluator there is and none come as close to meeting my experience as I would like. You can pass those automated test very easily and then totally ignore some very important elements. One accessibility presentation I went to had a company representative look like a fool when he was showing how JAWS worked with their pages. The designer passed all the automated tests, but failed to lineate the table correctly so JAWS was jumping all around the screen reading things out of order. Yep, Bobby said it passed - Bobby lied too. Yes, much of the Assistive Technology relies upon Microsoft. Didn't you realize that Microsoft doesn't allow anyone access to their core functions? Oh, that's last millennia's news. We should fire the federal judges that ruled in favor of Microsoft. They just gave too much power to Microsoft and I'm not talking their anti-competitive attitudes. I'm talking embedding their browser further into their operating systems. It's going to get to the point that their browser will enable any web site to take control of the computer again ... just like when we used to cause hard drive formats. Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. Thanks, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: J Rodgers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Have you looked at the other assistive technologies available? Yes I work closely with our Office for Persons with Disabilities, even presented at their Assistive Technology Fair last year. This year I will as well and sounds like it will be even bigger than last year. There are some very cool technologies out there. England and the other countries requiring accessible web sites state 508 did not meet their requirements for accessible web sites. So, how can we state that Section 508 is the end-all solution when other governments are saying it isn't enough? Not saying it was an end-all, just saying it was a decent place to start. At the very least it is forcing a lot of software developers and web designers to think accessible design. AT developers have the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines they have to follow. There is at least one person from the JAWS team on the working group. Since JAWS uses Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Accessibility Agent, I would hope that Microsoft starts supporting standards better than they do. And that they stop with their proprietary stuff. Netscape has begun to support OBJECT so we don't need to use EMBED/NOEMBED any longer unless you want to support earlier versions. Oh my, do we want to support Netscape 4.x? I don't and don't even come close to trying any longer. That is likely the biggest problem with Assistive technology, it relies on other over priced bloat ware that is unstable at the best of times and refuses to follow any standards properly. Why
Re: [WSG] 508??
Hi, Thanks I wasn't aware my question had ominous tones. Nonetheless, humble voice I appreciate your suggestion. /humble voice On Wednesday, June 30, 2004, at 08:04 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote: ominous voiceComprehensive Accessibility Text/ominous voice, as the field is constantly evolving and changing. What you can get, though, is books covering the majority of the basis, and follow that up with good practice examples. They're out there, you just need to look in the right places (and frequent lists like the above featured WAI-IG, or forums such as www.accessifyforum.com for instance). * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] xforms
Does anyone know where I can find some information on browser support for xforms and how to style them with css? I know the w3c has some information but my head starts spinning whenever I go to their pages. I found this site, but it doesn't mention support and styling. http://www.w3schools.com/xforms/xforms_intro.asp Thanks Ted * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] xforms
Ted Drake wrote: Does anyone know where I can find some information on browser support for xforms and how to style them with css? I know the w3c has some information but my head starts spinning whenever I go to their pages. I found this site, but it doesn't mention support and styling. http://www.w3schools.com/xforms/xforms_intro.asp Hello, I've read that XForms should be style-able with CSS and XSL. You'll need to choose your favorite XForms implementation: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/#implementations I think the DENG (aka Mozquito) iplementation has support for subsets of CSS2 and CSS3. The DENG Project (scroll down) http://claus.packts.net/ Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
In an effort to not drown the list-serv with constant replies, let me use this single reply. Captioning of SMIL, Magpie or the like will always be a human reviewer test. There's no way an automated evaluator can test image presentation. Search engines can't do it and certainly a less costly program won't be able to. At least not at this point. Regrettably, the only thing automated evaluators can do is tell you where you have fouled up (sometimes) and where you need to check (sometimes). Like Joe Clark says, they can't tell you when you've done something right. The only thing that can tell you when you've done something correctly is through experience and testing. You'll be surprised at how easy it becomes once you learn the little tricks of the trade. Jesse, you might be interested in The Globe and Mail on June 16, 2004. I think that's Canada's national newspaper. There's an article about accessible web sites, namely about YouSearched.com. I hope this was of some help. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: ckimedia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Hi, Thanks I wasn't aware my question had ominous tones. Nonetheless, humble voice I appreciate your suggestion. /humble voice On Wednesday, June 30, 2004, at 08:04 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote: ominous voiceComprehensive Accessibility Text/ominous voice, as the field is constantly evolving and changing. What you can get, though, is books covering the majority of the basis, and follow that up with good practice examples. They're out there, you just need to look in the right places (and frequent lists like the above featured WAI-IG, or forums such as www.accessifyforum.com for instance). * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] xforms
You'll need to choose your favorite XForms implementation huh? are these just IDE's for building XForms? It seems that the next version of ColdFusion will be using XForms as a version of CFFORM / but to tie it back to standards, what versions of older browsers support XForms? thanx barry.b -Original Message- From: Tonico Strasser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 1 July 2004 4:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] xforms Ted Drake wrote: Does anyone know where I can find some information on browser support for xforms and how to style them with css? I know the w3c has some information but my head starts spinning whenever I go to their pages. I found this site, but it doesn't mention support and styling. http://www.w3schools.com/xforms/xforms_intro.asp Hello, I've read that XForms should be style-able with CSS and XSL. You'll need to choose your favorite XForms implementation: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/#implementations I think the DENG (aka Mozquito) iplementation has support for subsets of CSS2 and CSS3. The DENG Project (scroll down) http://claus.packts.net/ Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What do browsers download?
here is what I think a browser would download, in what order.. [snip] The only real problem with that is the phrase a browser. Different browsers will almost certainly do it differently. Your theory certainly makes sense and maybe someone will do the experiment in more detail. I'd love to do some more tests when I have the time. jh Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] xforms
Ted Drake wrote: Does anyone know where I can find some information on browser support for xforms and how to style them with css? I know the w3c has some information but my head starts spinning whenever I go to their pages. I found this site, but it doesn't mention support and styling. http://www.w3schools.com/xforms/xforms_intro.asp G'day Ted, This is the most comprehensive site I've found : http://xforms.dstc.edu.au/index.html It is relatively new, but has examples, tutorials and links to other articles. And I loving promoting Australian knowledge! I couldn't find any specific points addressing browser support, though. It refers to a plug-in... Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
I think Judy Brewer, the Director of WAI hit the nail on the head when she said: In no case can automated Web accessibility evaluation tools determine conformance to all WCAG 1.0 Checkpoints at a given priority level. Therefore, manual evaluation by a knowledgeable expert using a variety of approaches is always an essential aspect of any conformance evaluation. Her full article Web Accessibility Highlights and Trends, 18 May 2004, is available from http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/990657.990667 cheers Iza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/07/04 5:33 In an effort to not drown the list-serv with constant replies, let me use this single reply. Captioning of SMIL, Magpie or the like will always be a human reviewer test. There's no way an automated evaluator can test image presentation. Search engines can't do it and certainly a less costly program won't be able to. At least not at this point. Regrettably, the only thing automated evaluators can do is tell you where you have fouled up (sometimes) and where you need to check (sometimes). Like Joe Clark says, they can't tell you when you've done something right. The only thing that can tell you when you've done something correctly is through experience and testing. You'll be surprised at how easy it becomes once you learn the little tricks of the trade. Jesse, you might be interested in The Globe and Mail on June 16, 2004. I think that's Canada's national newspaper. There's an article about accessible web sites, namely about YouSearched.com. I hope this was of some help. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: ckimedia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Hi, Thanks I wasn't aware my question had ominous tones. Nonetheless, humble voice I appreciate your suggestion. /humble voice On Wednesday, June 30, 2004, at 08:04 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote: ominous voiceComprehensive Accessibility Text/ominous voice, as the field is constantly evolving and changing. What you can get, though, is books covering the majority of the basis, and follow that up with good practice examples. They're out there, you just need to look in the right places (and frequent lists like the above featured WAI-IG, or forums such as www.accessifyforum.com for instance). * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What do browsers download?
John Horner wrote: So, the question is, what does the browser actually do? Three developers, discussing this, came up with different answers. Does it download only the images required for that page, download all images, or does it download the ones needed right away and the others in the background? I read a description somewhere, but I can't remember where. The first thing downloaded is something I haven't seen anyone point out, are headers. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What do browsers download?
As stated, it is very much browser dependant. I use Firefox for daily browsing and I like to load pages in background tabs. I was surprised when I first noticed that switching to a tab Firefox would then fetch CSS images ( unless cached ). If you are really keen on the ordering of http requests by your browser then the best method is to use a local proxy like proximitron. Of course under Firefox you can use the Live HTTP headers extension which is awesome. Regards Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 22:44, Chris Stratford wrote: Im not 100% sure... but here is what I think a browser would download, in what order.. 1st it would download the HTML code... then any Images in the document... then the DTD... then the Stylesheets... then the Stylesheet images... then 3rd party gear - flash, java, other applets and mods... just my guess... :) John Horner wrote: You mention an ABC internal standard of less than 60kb filesize. How does this work with dynamic pages? There are relatively few dynamic pages on the ABC website, so it doesn't often come up, but of course I'd expect things like search results to be arranged using some sort of paging, with each page a sensible size. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] First External Test
I have validated my CSS and markup and corrected an issue in Mozilla/Netscape that I was having...but in doing so, now the redesign of the site will not work at all past the index page in Opera. I am also interested in anyone who can view the site in prior versions of IE than version 6 and in Firefox. Mac platforms also. The url is http://www.bcrich.com/_new/index.aspand I thank you in advance for your time and efforts. Jeff D. ReidMIS DepartmentDavitt-Hanser Music CompanyCincinnati, OHhttp://www.bcrich.comhttp://www.kustom.comhttp://www.olpguitars.comOwnerROMDevCincinnati, OHhttp://www.romdev.comhttp://www.patandjeff.com"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." -Mitch Ratliffe-
[WSG] Ten questions for Richard rutter
Richard Rutter, of Clagnut fame (http://www.clagnut.com/) talks about liquid layouts, scaling images access keys, ems, and the standards-based rebuild of Multimap. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/richard-rutter.cfm Russ The Australian Museum. Australia's first - and leading - natural sciences and anthropology museum. Visit www.amonline.net.au The views in this email are those of the user and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Australian Museum. The information contained in this email message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential and is for the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or any attached files is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.The Australian Museum does not guarantee the accuracy of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. As Internet communications are not secure, the Australian Museum does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.
[WSG] Disapearing list in Firefox 0.9
Title: Message Hi, When I hover the mouse over an un-ordered list, the list simply disappears in FireFox 0.9. Does anybody havea remedy ? If this has been discussed before, could you please direct me to the resource. Thanks Bhuvnesh Chaudhry * This e-mail message (along with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and could contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or use of any of the information is prohibited. Please notify us immediately by return e-mail if you are not the intended recipient and delete all copies of the original message and attachments. This footnote also confirms that this message has been checked for computer viruses. *
