Re: [WSG] accessibility statements
The Bo$$ wrote: I really don't think accesskeys are all that good for accessiblity though. See http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2005/01/04/im_still_off/ I think that's a matter of opinion. If you use numbers for your accesskeys the conflicts are fairly limited. Even if few people use them, they aren't doing any harm. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Footers
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:28:06 +, David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've tried setting both div#wrapper to min-height: 100% but no change
is observed.
Does anyone have any suggestions for getting elements to clear
floating boxes?
I have solved what I believe to be the same problem by giving the
content a display type of 'table-cell' and a height larger than that
of the side bars. Gecko-based browsers interpret this as a minimum
height, while IE assumes that a fixed height should be taken as a
minimum rather than fixed (less rules, more like guidelines).
It does seem to cause occasional problems in Firefox, in that if the
page is longer than the screen, it can very occasionally and under
unusual circumstances leave the footer at the height specified.
However, I am running it on rather a large site and no-one in QA has
complained yet...
The following code creates a three-column layout where the outer
columns are fixed while the inner is flexible, with a full-width
footer always appearing below the content at a minumum of 600 pixels
below the top of page_content.
#master {}
#master_left {position:absolute;left:0;top:0;width:100px;}
#master_center {position:absolute;left:100px;top:0;width:500px;}
#master_right {position:absolute;left:600px;top:0;width:100px;}
#master_footer {position:absolute;left:-100px;width:700px;}
#page_content {display:table-cell;height:600px;width:500px;}
div id=master
div id=master_center
div id=page_contentcontent/div
/div
div id=master_leftleft nav/div
div id=master_rightright sidebar/div
div id=footerfooter/div
/div
You can swap the master left, right and center divs around in to any
order you like.
--
Tom Hamshere
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Re: [WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?
BUT - for development purposes wrapping is far more readable. Same way that code indenting is a nice thing to do but serves no practical purpose. Of course, if you're very concerned about page size (kb wise) the wrapping, indenting etc are just pointless wastes of space. Most of my pages are generated from PHP, so they are partially wrapped (HTML sections) and partially one-long-line (PHP echo-ed code), so instead of trying to output nicely wrapped code I've just integrated HTML tidy with my text editor. I get nice wrapping/indentation and HTML validation. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS
Hi The WSG has a dedicated CMS list - discussions about the applications can be best be answered there... All you need to do is edit your subscription at this link: http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_edit.cfm Cheers James -- admin On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:09:08 +0100, JohnyB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that Drupal.org is far better than Mambo... -- Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] access keys - accessibility statements
We use number access keys. a good article - http://www.clagnut.com/blog/193/ It also helps that we are trying to set a standard within our organization. That way everyone is using the same access keys. Sincerely, Justin Thorp http://thinkthenthype.blogspot.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] content-language
Can somebody please explain what the content-language meta tag is useful for? Is it required for validity? I have a site that is being translated into 6 languages, so should I include all the languages in the content-language tag? meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=en,pt,es,fr,nl,de / Thanks. -- ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] a good accessibility primer
Matt May from the W3C's Web Accessibility Initiative wrote a really good article for Digital Web magazine called, Accessibility From The Ground Up. Its a really good introduction to accessibility and what it is. I would recommend passing it around to fellow colleagues. http://www.digital-web.com/articles/accessibility_from_the_ground_up/ Sincerely, Justin Thorp http://thinkthentype.blogspot.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a good accessibility primer
Justin Thorp wrote: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/accessibility_from_the_ground_up/ I did a presentation on Accessibility the other night. If you're interested, here are my lecture notes. http://www.andybudd.com/presentations/skillswap05/accessibility/ Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] scribbles
Hi Bob, You make a good point. But the reason I don't use new windows isn't accesibility. It's an irritation at having new windows opened for me. Being a firefox user, I open in a new tab when I want to and in the current otherwise. People know what they want, generally, and are able to perform that actoin. The only popular non-tabbed browser is IE 6, where one can always open in a new window if one wants. The case for mini-popups (smaller sized windows, sized through the javascript window.open()) is somewhat different - indeed they can often be quite useful. But if you're just opening a new window because it's what you want - I don't consider it useful. My two cents. mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:48:17 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I'm not 'doing a blog', but have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html I have not put this up to bring down the wrath of the evangelists, nor to cause a list war, but to express my confusion and hopefully promote some emreasoned/em debate amongst intelligent web design folk. I am genuinely confused by this, but am open minded and amenable to being convinced. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] content-language
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:06:00 +, john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can somebody please explain what the content-language meta tag is useful for? It's not exactly meta tag. It's HTTP header. See: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3282.html Is it required for validity? No. I have a site that is being translated into 6 languages,so should I include all the languages in the content-language tag? No, only actual language of file you are sending. See examples in RFC. Personally I think that HTML lang (or xml:lang) attributes are more appropriate (and precise). -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] scribbles
I've seen where people use hidden DIV's that show/hide and who's content changes depending on the function at hand... That works REALLY well. Just an insight. I do think that popup style windows have a place in function and can be convenient. It's in a mixed spot for me. --- Josh Withrow System Administrator Newark, Delaware [EMAIL PROTECTED] Direct: 800-873-8932 x237 302-454-8511 x237 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Cordover Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:27 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] scribbles Hi Bob, You make a good point. But the reason I don't use new windows isn't accesibility. It's an irritation at having new windows opened for me. Being a firefox user, I open in a new tab when I want to and in the current otherwise. People know what they want, generally, and are able to perform that actoin. The only popular non-tabbed browser is IE 6, where one can always open in a new window if one wants. The case for mini-popups (smaller sized windows, sized through the javascript window.open()) is somewhat different - indeed they can often be quite useful. But if you're just opening a new window because it's what you want - I don't consider it useful. My two cents. mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:48:17 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I'm not 'doing a blog', but have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html I have not put this up to bring down the wrath of the evangelists, nor to cause a list war, but to express my confusion and hopefully promote some emreasoned/em debate amongst intelligent web design folk. I am genuinely confused by this, but am open minded and amenable to being convinced. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] scribbles
A question to answer your question. Would you consider pop up windows as focus-stealing from a users point of view with regards to controlling his browsing environment? http://asktog.com/Bughouse/10MostPersistentBugs.html compiled by Bruce Tognazzini - Carmelyne Thompson designer wrote: Hi All, I'm not 'doing a blog', but have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html I have not put this up to bring down the wrath of the evangelists, nor to cause a list war, but to express my confusion and hopefully promote some emreasoned/em debate amongst intelligent web design folk. I am genuinely confused by this, but am open minded and amenable to being convinced. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
Hello, I am currently busy/trying to make a pure css website.. Not using tables or frames. The problem that has occured for the menu we are using a flashbased menu. But because the index.php file is only one file which reloads when clicking on something the flash menu also reloads all the time. To see what I am talking about - have a look here : http://www.tripany.com/vdbII/ The thing that I want is that either flash isn't reload on a refresh or loading a new content.. of a way to use flash in this situation where it wont be reloaded all the time. Hope that anyone can help me with this.. else I will have to make the page using frames - which is something I dont want to do [a bit stubborn]. Thnx in advance for the help ! With regards ! Sven ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:03:29 +0100, Sven-Eric Buschgens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem that has occured for the menu we are using a flashbased menu. Is removing flash menu altogether an option? It seems that you can do it with simple :hover and animgif or it might be possible to get similar animation in DHTML. Generally flash menu creates problems: - links cannot be opened in new window/tab - links cannot be dragged (to bookmarks) - no link context-menu, no statusbar information and unless you create a reasonable alternative: - your site is useless without flash enabled - menu is inacessible to web spiders and screen readers -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
One thing you may want to provide is an alternative text based menu with /or without flash plug ins enabled. I've never encountered a .swf file not refreshing along with the refresh button. :( - Carmelyne Thompson Sven-Eric Buschgens wrote: Hello, I am currently busy/trying to make a pure css website.. Not using tables or frames. The problem that has occured for the menu we are using a flashbased menu. But because the index.php file is only one file which reloads when clicking on something the flash menu also reloads all the time. To see what I am talking about - have a look here : http://www.tripany.com/vdbII/ The thing that I want is that either flash isn't reload on a refresh or loading a new content.. of a way to use flash in this situation where it wont be reloaded all the time. Hope that anyone can help me with this.. else I will have to make the page using frames - which is something I dont want to do [a bit stubborn]. Thnx in advance for the help ! With regards ! Sven ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Carmelyne Thompson Web Architect/Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.intricately.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] re:scribbles
Hi Carmelyne, - Original Message - From: Carmelyne Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] scribbles A question to answer your question. Would you consider pop up windows as focus-stealing from a users point of view with regards to controlling his browsing environment? http://asktog.com/Bughouse/10MostPersistentBugs.html compiled by Bruce Tognazzini - Carmelyne Thompson Certainly not - nothing happens at all if the user doesn't select a link to make it happen (just like opening your mail without shutting everything else down). And for the record 'pop up' windows is the wrong term here - it' s new windows we're talking about. It's not 'focus stealing' - it's focus alternating, with a choice of which you concentrate on/shut down. Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] RE: newbie with popup menus question
Andreas, David, Boss, et al: Thank you for taking the time to respond. Your comments have certainly helped. Had forgotten about the invisible load associated with adding those popup menus and the need for an alternate navigation system is JavaScript is turned off. Cheers! ¤ devendra ¤ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:03:29 +0100, Sven-Eric Buschgens wrote: Hello, The thing that I want is that either flash isn't reload on a refresh or loading a new content.. of a way to use flash in this situation where it wont be reloaded all the time. Hope that anyone can help me with this.. else I will have to make the page using frames - which is something I dont want to do [a bit stubborn]. Set up the swf to be passed a variable when buttons are clicked so it will jump to the end of the animation and *appear* not to play every time. - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] content-language
I am pretty sure it is for if you have a second language pack on your computer, the browser will load that before loading your site (allowing the user to see the page in their foreign tongue). On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:34:33 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:06:00 +, john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can somebody please explain what the content-language meta tag is useful for? It's not exactly meta tag. It's HTTP header. See: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3282.html Is it required for validity? No. I have a site that is being translated into 6 languages,so should I include all the languages in the content-language tag? No, only actual language of file you are sending. See examples in RFC. Personally I think that HTML lang (or xml:lang) attributes are more appropriate (and precise). -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Anthony Timberlake Owner - StaticHost Internet Services http://www.statichost.co.uk http://www.spikeradio.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
Flash takes a while to load on slow connections. I wouldn't use it due to that fact. On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:45:26 -0500, Tom Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:03:29 +0100, Sven-Eric Buschgens wrote: Hello, The thing that I want is that either flash isn't reload on a refresh or loading a new content.. of a way to use flash in this situation where it wont be reloaded all the time. Hope that anyone can help me with this.. else I will have to make the page using frames - which is something I dont want to do [a bit stubborn]. Set up the swf to be passed a variable when buttons are clicked so it will jump to the end of the animation and *appear* not to play every time. - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Anthony Timberlake Owner - StaticHost Internet Services http://www.statichost.co.uk http://www.spikeradio.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] content-language
Personally I think that HTML lang (or xml:lang) attributes are more appropriate (and precise). Could you please elaborate more on this? I'm just wondering what I should do for this site, since there are multiple languages. Should I do anything at all? Thanks. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
Hi, I'm exciting a burning time, but I adore FLASH, when used correctly. In this instance spare yourself the headache and use an animated GIF solution. This will increase accessibility options and spare you time and energy. On Monday, January 24, 2005, at 07:03 AM, Sven-Eric Buschgens wrote: Hello, I am currently busy/trying to make a pure css website.. Not using tables or frames. The problem that has occured for the menu we are using a flashbased menu. But because the index.php file is only one file which reloads when clicking on something the flash menu also reloads all the time. To see what I am talking about - have a look here : http://www.tripany.com/vdbII/ The thing that I want is that either flash isn't reload on a refresh or loading a new content.. of a way to use flash in this situation where it wont be reloaded all the time. Hope that anyone can help me with this.. else I will have to make the page using frames - which is something I dont want to do [a bit stubborn]. Thnx in advance for the help ! With regards ! Sven ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] content-language
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:08:47 +, john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I think that HTML lang (or xml:lang) attributes are more appropriate (and precise). Could you please elaborate more on this? I'm just wondering what I should do for this site, since there are multiple languages. Should I do anything at all? Random google result on this subject: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/web/tips/langtag.html Define language of the page in HTML tag: html lang=en and if there are exceptions (elements on a page in a diffrent language), mark them up: ul lang=pl liraz/li lidwa/li litrzy/li /ul Screen readers as well as search engines use this information. In HTML use lang, in XHTML/1.0 use lang and xml:lang, in XHTML/1.1 only xml:lang is allowed. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] content-language[is it search op?]
Hi, Would this fall under search engine optimization? If so where could I find more on the subject? On Monday, January 24, 2005, at 09:35 AM, Kornel Lesinski wrote: Screen readers as well as search engines use this information. In HTML use lang, in XHTML/1.0 use lang and xml:lang, in XHTML/1.1 only xml:lang is allowed. CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] scribbles
designer wrote: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html On this page, you write: Of course you can use javascript to open a new window (onClick), but that isn't the point, is it? I think that's exactly the point, however. My understanding is that the W3C did not remove the target attribute because opening windows is evil, but because it's not structural. They've relegated this *behavior* to the behavior layer (JavaScript) instead of the structural layer ([X]HTML). Granted, not everyone can use JavaScript or has it turned on, so they simply won't have this behavior triggered, just like any other scripting they may encounter on the web. If it's absolutely vital that the link opens in a new window for every user (which of course still only means those users whose browsers understand and act upon the target attribute), you can certainly use the transitional DTDs where it is still perfectly valid. One person I work with writes XHTML that is entirely strict-compliant except for target, and uses the transitional DTD on the few pages that need it. -- Martin Lambert [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] content-language[is it search op?]
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:10:52 -0800, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would this fall under search engine optimization? If so where could I find more on the subject? http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_7_identifying_your_language.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Container primer?
It appears from some of the postings here that the use of Containers is considered to be superior to the use of Table. Is there a guide available to converting old beggers like me from Tables to Containers? Regards RobinClear skies and warm feet! (expat Brit in Czech Republic)Location: N 50°08'46.6"; E 14°20'01.4" Ele: 872ft
RE: [WSG] Container primer?
Try the Eric Meyers on CSS book, part one or two. It will walk you through the evolution of tables to standards in easy steps. -Original Message-From: Robin Lauryssen-Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:41 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Container primer? It appears from some of the postings here that the use of Containers is considered to be superior to the use of Table. Is there a guide available to converting old beggers like me from Tables to Containers? Regards RobinClear skies and warm feet! (expat Brit in Czech Republic)Location: N 50°08'46.6"; E 14°20'01.4" Ele: 872ft
[WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
Hi, Over the last year or so, I've been steadily pushing for improved use of standards within one of my organizations sites. I've moved the site away away from table based layouts and implemented CSS for presentation. The initial transition (01) was an improvement; however, there are still issues with font size and zoom, navigation, headings, forms, and the general semantics of the markup that we intend to address. One of the issues I wanted to address first was source order versus screen arrangement of the various pieces of content. In the current version, the content is last in the lineup and I don't feel that is the best option. I've worked things out to the point (02) that I can place the navigation either first (horizontal example after any promo stuff) or after the main content (vertical example at the top of the side-bar). My question at this point is: which is a better approach--nav first with a skip to content link or nav last with a skip to nav link? I'm inclined to think putting the nav last or at least after the main content is better for screen readers and such as well as for SEO, but I don't have any solid research to back up that opinion. Placing the nav in the sidebar also allows for more font scaling than the horizontal option--it won't have fly out menus, but I'd rather have a home page for each main section anyway. So what do you guys think? 01: http://www.iqmax.com/ 02: http://www.iqmax.com/iqmaxcss/ -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
I like the second one much better! Very nice. On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:26:46 -0500, Michael Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Over the last year or so, I've been steadily pushing for improved use of standards within one of my organizations sites. I've moved the site away away from table based layouts and implemented CSS for presentation. The initial transition (01) was an improvement; however, there are still issues with font size and zoom, navigation, headings, forms, and the general semantics of the markup that we intend to address. One of the issues I wanted to address first was source order versus screen arrangement of the various pieces of content. In the current version, the content is last in the lineup and I don't feel that is the best option. I've worked things out to the point (02) that I can place the navigation either first (horizontal example after any promo stuff) or after the main content (vertical example at the top of the side-bar). My question at this point is: which is a better approach--nav first with a skip to content link or nav last with a skip to nav link? I'm inclined to think putting the nav last or at least after the main content is better for screen readers and such as well as for SEO, but I don't have any solid research to back up that opinion. Placing the nav in the sidebar also allows for more font scaling than the horizontal option--it won't have fly out menus, but I'd rather have a home page for each main section anyway. So what do you guys think? 01: http://www.iqmax.com/ 02: http://www.iqmax.com/iqmaxcss/ -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Anthony Timberlake Owner - StaticHost Internet Services http://www.statichost.co.uk http://www.spikeradio.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] content-language[is it search op?]
Thanks Kornel. Very useful resource. devendra -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:32 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] content-language[is it search op?] On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:10:52 -0800, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would this fall under search engine optimization? If so where could I find more on the subject? http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_7_identifying_your_language.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
since you are using a server-side language you can do an "if" statement to where if it meets the flash needs it gives the flash menu if not gives an alternative menu. or if just refreshing is the problem, cache the swf immediately. ok i think i read that wrong i use coldfusion and i know what i'd do there but even with php why not just make a header page and include it Flash takes a while to load on slow connections. I wouldn't use it due to that fact. whats the difference between a 25k html page(with say animated gifs) and a 25k swf? there really isnt any reason that most swfs shouldnt be very compact anymore, except for poor design Generally flash menu creates problems: - links cannot be opened in new window/tab - u, yeah they can, rather easily too - links cannot be dragged (to bookmarks) - sure they can - no link context-menu, no statusbar information - i believe they now can and unless you create a reasonable alternative: - menu is inacessible to web spiders and screen readers - umm no its not, if done correctly. you should always have a static set of links available anyways (usually at bottom), spyders can read flash when do right as well. Although in this case i dont know why you would want it unless to follow links in which case an alternate means should be there as well or even a simple page of links. From: Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:26 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css pageHi,I'm exciting a "burning time", but I adore FLASH, when used correctly. In this instance spare yourself the headache and use an animated GIF solution. This will increase accessibility options and spare you time and energy.On Monday, January 24, 2005, at 07:03 AM, Sven-Eric Buschgens wrote: Hello, I am currently busy/trying to make a pure css website.. Not using tables or frames. The problem that has occured for the menu we are using a flashbased menu. But because the index.php file is only one file which reloads when clicking on something the flash menu also reloads all the time. To see what I am talking about - have a look here : http://www.tripany.com/vdbII/ The thing that I want is that either flash isn't reload on a refresh or loading a new content.. of a way to use flash in this situation where it wont be reloaded all the time. Hope that anyone can help me with this.. else I will have to make the page using frames - which is something I dont want to do [a bit stubborn]. Thnx in advance for the help ! With regards ! Sven ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **CK__"Knowing is not enough, you must apply;willing is not enough, you must do." ---Bruce Lee**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
One of the issues I wanted to address first was source order versus screen arrangement of the various pieces of content. In the current So what do you guys think? There is no right or wrong. There are the two basic arguments. NAV BEFORE * theoretically better for Search Engine Optimisation (as the content is at the top) NAV AFTER * theoretically better for blind users (it is easier for blind users to navigate with the nav at the top and only read content when they need to) * theoretically better for text based browsers, and browsers that have little or no css support (so users can navigate pages easily without scroll to nav each time) The problems with all these theories are that it all comes down to personal preference. Some people using screen readers or non-css browsers may prefer browsing pages with the nav at the top and others may not. IS THERE A SOLUTION? Some people forget that accessibility is in some ways a subset of usability. The key to usability is not based on theories, but testing with real audiences. So, rather that decide on source ordering for your site based on someone's theory, it may be better to look into your target audiences, choose some people that fit the demographic and then go and test some options on these people. It's always good to include people who use older devices or screen readers in the mix if possible. From the people I have watched or spoken to, the most important thing is not source order but SITE CONSISTENCY - meaning that the source order, visual nav position etc remain constant across all pages. This is vital for blind users and people with cognitive impairment, who can be thrown easily by changing systems on different pages. Bottom line - If people really want to use your site to access content, they will learn how your pages work - as long as the pages are logical and consistent. Something that may help your users is content chunking and content labelling. I have found it to be invaluable for users of text browsers, older browsers and screen readers. The advantage with this method is that old browsers and screen readers will receive the content broken into chunks that are clearly labelled with meaningful headings, so the page content is less confusing. Some guides, if interested: * provide visible skip links that allow users to jump to the content (if nav first) or nav (if content first). The wording for skip links has been hotly debated on this list before, so look through WSG mail archives for the best fit for you. * Break the page into chunks of content - page heading, content, main nav, secondary nav, news etc (not thinking about presentation at all at this stage) * separate these chunks with descriptive headings (using proper h1, h2, h3.. elements) to explain their purpose - h2Site sections/h2, h2Footer information/h2, etc... (and I'm sure these wordings could be hotly debated too). * if these descriptive headings do not fit within the design of your site, they can be hidden from full-css supporting browsers using css. 2cents Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
Russ, isn't it NAV AFTER that is better for SEO, as the content is at the top -- this leads to better keyword density, likliness of headings being found etc?. Terrence Wood. russ - maxdesign wrote: NAV BEFORE * theoretically better for Search Engine Optimisation (as the content is at the top) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
Russ, isn't it NAV AFTER that is better for SEO, as the content is at Ooppps... Completely correct. The two headings should be reversed... NAV AFTER * theoretically better for Search Engine Optimisation (as the content is at the top) NAV BEFORE * theoretically better for blind users (it is easier for blind users to navigate with the nav at the top and only read content when they need to) * theoretically better for text based browsers, and browsers that have little or no css support (so users can navigate pages easily without scroll to nav each time) Russ = Idiot! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
Michael Wilson wrote: My question at this point is: which is a better approach--nav first with a skip to content link or nav last with a skip to nav link? I'm inclined to think putting the nav last or at least after the main content is better for screen readers and such as well as for SEO, but I don't have any solid research to back up that opinion. I'll go for content first - nav later/last. This type of source-ordering is IMO giving the best access to the main content (which I think is what makes a web page worth visiting), when all the nice styling is gone. I base this on feedback from visitors who can't see my nice styling at all. (Maybe my designs are not worth all that much, as I more and more tend to like my own pages unstyled. :-) ) I don't use header-constructs. All that's needed at the top of a page is some controlled space, where I can position informative and decorative details from somewhere else. This space disappears completely when it isn't needed. The first element in my latest pages is a h1 - h2 construct, followed by the main content. I sign off this main content part before any of the less important stuff begins - including navigation. Some navigation may end up in a side-column, and some in the footer. This all depends on what I think makes most sense in a styled/unstyled page. I may also reverse the page to a degree, so some navigation is repositioned to the very top, from the bottom of the source-code. Maybe a skip to nav is preferable, but all reports says that links are easy to find by simple link-tabbing. Lynx tab links just fine, but I have not tested what all other alternative browsing-options do. Using Lynx, I also add in link-relations for navigation. That means the most important navigation ends up at the same place in the same browser no matter what, so visitors will always know where to find it. The only reason for having ordinary links for this most important navigation at all, is that there are so many browsers that can't make use of link-relations. So I put these ordinary most important links at the bottom of my pages, to help out on less powerful browsers. So what do you guys think? 01: http://www.iqmax.com/ 02: http://www.iqmax.com/iqmaxcss/ Your second is much better than the first, but source-ordering can be taken much further. I'm not quite done with my own layouts yet (and will probably never be) but I have come to the conclusion that most visual designs can be realized - independent of the source-code order. Take this page: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_01_02.html ... to http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html ... and see that it is very much in line with your content first approach. I think that's the way to go... regards Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Image replacement and printing
Hi all, We've just been investigating using Fahrner Image Replacement, or one of its more accessibility friendly derivatives, when we came across the problem of printing. It seems that in IE the default option is to not print background images and colours. So a person printing our web page will not be getting any of the headings that have been replaced with images. Has anyone found a solution to this? I really like the idea of specifying heading text in a Hx tag and replacing it for the user, but most clients aren't going to go for it if the user has to fiddle with their settings to get it to print. thanks, bye... --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
One thing highlighted at an accessibility site design awards ceremony I recently attended was the wish for developers to include a site map link at the head jump links on all pages so non-sighted users could immediately jump to the page and get a feel for site relevance to search topic, especially when hitting a site - often for the first time - when Googling. This was requested as a key development feature by the head of the British National Blind Library. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.visidigm.com Administrator Guild of Accessible Web Designers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gawds.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 21/01/05 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Image replacement and printing
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:08:47 +1100, Ryan Sabir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... It seems that in IE the default option is to not print background images and colours. So a person printing our web page will not be getting any of the headings that have been replaced with images. Has anyone found a solution to this? I really like the idea of specifying heading text in a Hx tag and replacing it for the user, but most clients aren't going to go for it if the user has to fiddle with their settings to get it to print. Just don't use image replacement in print stylesheet. You do have print stylesheet, don't you? Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Image replacement and printing
Rimantas is only giving half the answer.
I came across this problem as well, and although my solution isn't the
most elegant, it works.
We placed a div in the header with a class=print. The div contains a
header image that looks good on the printed page. The style sheet has
.print {display:none;}
In the print style sheet, I don't tell it to display none. This makes
the image invisible on the screen and shows it for printed pages and for
those with styles disabled.
The disadvantage is having people download an image that they are not
even looking at.
Ted
www.csatravelprotection.com
Has anyone found a solution to this? I really like the idea of
specifying heading text in a Hx tag and replacing it for the user, but
most clients aren't going to go for it if the user has to fiddle with
their settings to get it to print.
Just don't use image replacement in print stylesheet.
You do have print stylesheet, don't you?
Regards,
Rimantas
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] scribbles
I ... have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html An a tag represents a link to another document from the current document. A search engine encountering that link will understand it in its entirety. Add the target attribute, and now you've confounded the issue. Does that link only exist between these documents if it's in a windowing environment? Does the link represent the relationship between two documents, or between two windows? If the window's name is the same as the target value, and therefore it is not opening in a new window, should the link not be followed? These are the sorts of rules that exist in a windowing environment, but cannot be expressed by a simple target attribute. In the end, to keep the web platform-neutral, target attributes were removed. Platform-specific scripting can easily replace any functionality you want to include. For example, I've written a script that finds a tags, then attaches specific behaviors based on the rel attribute value (the link's relationship to the linked file). For the values of popview and newwin I attach new-window functionality. Yes, this is a bit more work. I think that needs to be addressed, but the removal of target is a step in the right direction. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?
I was thinking about your stereotypical Angelfire / Tripod user, the beginner hobbyist. I think about them a *lot*. If it weren't for the ease of publishing, the web would not have taken off. Doubt me? How many other networked document protocols created in the early 90's or before do you use today? I know of a dozen or so -- I only use HTTP/HTML. I think it's because it was the only one that could be written so sloppily that we could publish things *while* we learned. I am concerned that the growing rigidity of the code will lock out the hobbyists. I believe we are going through a similar transition as early radio, after the hobbyist crystal-set owners stopped broadcasting because they couldn't keep up with the rules they needed to follow. However, without those rules much of the radio culture would not have formed. It is vital, IMO, to have advanced, capable standards existing side-by-side with easy, flexible, and immediately useful means for each individual to grow into them. I think the W3C needs to produce more flavors of XHTML than just the single specification... I'm thinking more along the lines of: XHTML 2.0 - Simple XHTML 2.0 - Contracted Tags + Attributes XHTML 2.0 - Complete Where the Simple edition is a vastly simplified version where there's less emphasis on content/presentation separation, such as greater support for attribute styles and perhaps a LayoutTable element? Where each LayoutCell has a Context Order informing screen-readers in what order to read the content? A simple, advanced DTD that is not XML-rigid would be very good. I'm not sure tables are needed; our newbie coders think in tables because that's what they know. Tomorrow's newbies will think differently. What is needed is specifically a DTD that merges presentation, content, and behavior, without burdening user-agents that are already built for the more strict, rigid, powerful stuff. For example, an easier way to attach inline styles and scripts than our single event handlers and style tags. div SBorder=1 sWidth=500 AttachMouse=follow() The content of this div is 500px wide and follows the mouse. It is not xml-compliant, but its attributes clearly map to specific CSS standards, with certain, common assumptions. /DIV ...or some such. Something that allows the newbies to see one small bit of code do something specific. From here they can graduate to removing styles to classes, behaviors to scripts, and so forth. It is this merged ability that makes beginning print layout hobbyists opt for embedded graphics, styles, and macros in a Word document over the professional layout designer using the separated Quark method. It is worth maintaining, and should be deliberately designed to foster self-propelled education in the proper methods. I was also thinking of bandwidth conservation, especilly with the mobile device market, and thought up a variant of XHTML where only the essential elements are included, and represented using the minimum of letters, ditto for their attributes Don't worry about tag space. Tags compress *very* well with http compression, to the point where your code may not save any space. Note my use of my proposed universal closing tag '/' Then the bad habit this induces would be to start throwing unneeded extra universal-closers everywhere you can think of. Ick. Just out of curiosity... how do I get things like these formalised into an RFC Document and sent to the W3C for review? I'd start here: http://www.w3.org/Mail/ -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Heading without line break
Heya? How would I tell a stylesheet to not put a line break at the end of an Hx tag? e.g. h3My heading/h3 and some more text. I want the words and some more text. to appear on the same line. How would I do this? thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Heading without line break
Have you tried changing the DISPLAY style to INLINE instead of BLOCK ? Gary On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:31:15 +1100, Ryan Sabir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heya? How would I tell a stylesheet to not put a line break at the end of an Hx tag? e.g. h3My heading/h3 and some more text. I want the words and some more text. to appear on the same line. How would I do this? thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Heading without line break
display: inline Cheers Jeff Lowder Accessibility 1st E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.accessibility1st.com.au On 25/1/05 12:31 PM, Ryan Sabir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heya? How would I tell a stylesheet to not put a line break at the end of an Hx tag? e.g. h3My heading/h3 and some more text. I want the words and some more text. to appear on the same line. How would I do this? thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Heading without line break
Ryan Sabir wrote: How would I tell a stylesheet to not put a line break at the end of an Hx tag? Apply display: inline to both the heading and the following tag. Alternately, you could play with display: run-in applied just to the heading, but it may not be supported by all browsers. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#display-prop -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Election campaign websites
It is interesting to note that for us lot in Western Australia, that none of the political party campaign websites for the state election next month actually meet html or css validation. http://www.waliberals.net/ http://betterfuture.com.au http://www.greens.org.au http://wwwdemocrats.org.au http://www.familyfirst.org.au See the results of the validator tests at http://www.port80.asn.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1629. Cheers, Miles. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Text wrapping and background images
Hi all, me again... Strange problem with text wrapping and background images here: http://www.newgency.com/ryans/test/test.html I'm trying to get the 'read more' graphic to always sit at the right of the 'Read more' text. In Firefox this works fine, but in IE, when the 'Read more' text wraps, the position of the graphic gets mucked up and it either appears in the wrong place, or disappears entirely. To see this happen, open up the above link in IE, then play with the size of the browser window until the words 'Read more' gets popped to the next line. You'll see the arrow disappear. Is there any way to make this work correctly across browsers? or will I have to give up on using css to put that image there. The style info is in the same file if you want to View Source. bye! BTW, thanks for all your help lately folks, much appreciated. I hope to return the favour sometime soon. --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text wrapping and background images
G'day http://www.newgency.com/ryans/test/test.html I'm trying to get the 'read more' graphic to always sit at the right of the 'Read more' text. ... Is there any way to make this work correctly across browsers? or will I have to give up on using css to put that image there. The style info is in the same file if you want to View Source. Try adding display:inline-block to the .readmore class. It's valid CSS and supported by MSIE6. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#propdef-display: inline-block This value causes an element to generate a block box, which itself is flowed as a single inline box, similar to a replaced element. The inside of an inline-block is formatted as a block box, and the element itself is formatted as an inline replaced element. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Nav Before or After Main Content
Mike Pepper wrote: One thing highlighted at an accessibility site design awards ceremony I recently attended was the wish for developers to include a site map link at the head jump links on all pages so non-sighted users could immediately jump to the page and get a feel for site relevance to search topic, especially when hitting a site - often for the first time - when Googling. This is similar to responses I've got about how a group of visitors to my site like to surf web sites - by using a separate site map. This was requested as a key development feature by the head of the British National Blind Library. Wouldn't this request be met by providing link-relations like: link rel=home href=../index.html / link rel=contents href=maincontent.html / ... on all pages? ref: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/use-links http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/links.html#h-12.3 I know there are browsers that doesn't make use of these, but how many shortcomings in browsers should we cover up for - if we want them to catch up? Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Container primer?
Thanks for the info. Whilst waiting for books to be delivered I have found this site. Thought it might be useful to other aged ones, such as myself, to whom HTML used to mean "High tea mi' Lord?": http://www.elated.com/tutorials/authoring/css/ Regards RobinClear skies and warm feet! (expat Brit in Czech Republic)Location: N 50°08'46.6"; E 14°20'01.4" Ele: 872ft
