Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s
thanks that really sux! just another way microsucks makes our lifes miserable, truely amazing!!!From: Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:44 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] 2 ?'sRemove all the whitespace between each set of the li/li tags. That will make IE behave. i.e: no whitespace inbetween the sets of tags. lia href=""home/a/lilia href=""guiding service/a/lilia href=""guides/a/lilia href=""photo album/a/lilia href=""shop/a/lilia href=""contact us/a/lilia href=""hunting/a/lilia href=""testimonials/a/lilia href=""bulletin board/a/li This same problem happenes if you create a display:inline li item - it renders one white space if there are any. Regards, Gary On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yeah, try it again, i was trying to get around a w3c error saying it couldnt find the closing body tag but its there. cutting up the page into header, nav and footer sections, when u do that the validator takes a crap From: Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:26 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject : Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s Got an error on that page. You appear to be missing the ##'s around expandPath. Could not find the included template expandPath(header.cfm). Note: If you wish to use an absolute template path (e.g. TEMPLATE="/mypath/index.cfm") with CFINCLUDE then you must create a mapping for the path using the ColdFusion Administrator. Using relative paths ( e.g. TEMPLATE="index.cfm" or TEMPLATE="../index.cfm") does not require the creation of any special mappings. It is therefore recommended that you use relative paths with CFINCLUDE whenever possible. The error occurred in /vservers/thehatchflys/htdocs/controls/template.cfm: line 12 10 : /cfsilent11 : !--- include application header ---12 : cfinclude template="expandPath(header.cfm)" 13 : !--- include application navigation --- 14 : cfinclude template="navigation.cfm" On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks! thats the best one i have seen so far.the only 2 i have tested so far that aren't so good is on ie mac it floats up near top and on pc opera 8 it's kinda funky. seems to have even fixed my 1 px left float on safari for the header whoo hoo.another problem is the menu on pc ie6 has too big of spaces, any suggestion on that or any of it? http://www.thehatchflyshop.com/controls/template.cfmbtw~ i'm not charging the client for cssp, just going so it doesnt have to be perfect ;)thanks From: Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 10:31 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] 2 ?'sOn 7/22/05 7:10 PM "csslist" sent this out: anyone have a good linnk to a tut or other about footers and always having them at bottom under the content.This was on this list recently:--- quotingLooks like someone has found a mostly-reliable CSS-only solution to that common footer problem - getting a footer to stick to the bottomof the viewport no matter how long or short the content is, whichdoesn't overlap the content when the window is resized:Explanation: Example: --- end quotingSeems to work in Safari and degrades okay in IE Mac.Hth,Rick Faaberg** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
[WSG] svg images
can someone instruct me how to place a svg image as a background image that will validate in xhtml 1.0 strict? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check please
Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi All I've been working on a re-design of my web site and I know the code is still rough. However, I think I could use some outside eyeballs on the design. You know how things are when you look at it for too long... http://www.tdrake.net/joan/index-liquid.html very nice. i bookmarked the page. i liked what you had to say. very inspirational. i'll have to go back again. overall the design works for me, but borders on being too busy. ff tells me that you have some js errors and warnings on the index page. didn't check the other pages for that though. do you live where you took the photos or are you a vagabond? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check please
Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi All I've been working on a re-design of my web site and I know the code is still rough. However, I think I could use some outside eyeballs on the design. You know how things are when you look at it for too long... http://www.tdrake.net/joan/index-liquid.html p.s. the page has a horizontal scroll at 800x600 in ff. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)
There's something about inheritance that I don't understand. Say in my style
sheet I have:
body { color: black }
#content {}
#hilite p { color: red }
If I have three paragraphs in the div #hilite and I want the text of one of
them to be black instead of red, I define this class for that paragraph:
.normal { color: black }
But I find this doesn't work. For it to work, I have to define the class
with the div ID, like this:
#hilite .normal { color: black }
What is it about the laws of inheritance that means the class alone won't
work??
Hope Stewart
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Eric meyers on crashing IE
There's no way I' m gonna post again any soon ... anywhere ... about ... anything. I will wait for the shame to wear off ... In my defence : ... I had NO evening ... NO night ... and ... yes ... NO MORNING and NO sleep. I'm sorry folks, please forgive me !On 7/22/05, Drake, Ted C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for another post. I just wanted to clarify. I didn't write the post on crashing IE. I cut and pasted the post by Eric Meyers. I thought it would be more convenient to provide his insights than to make you click on a link and go to his web site. There was also a link in there. I just don't want to take credit for the prose of someone else, Eric gets the kudos and observations, I was merely the messenger. Ted P.S. Patrick Lauke came up with a killer version of the zebra stripe _javascript_ which I am sure he will share with the list when it is ready. He deserves a round of applause for taking some time out of his day to help a fellow list member and eventually the entire community. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mugur Padurean Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:36 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Eric meyers on crashing IE Ted, now, why did you give IE another brake ? It's always gonna need another one and there's nothing we can do about that for now. Problem is every time we hack for IE we buy it a little more time. And frankly ... that's a BAD idea. We found the best grammar (standards) for the web and we made them reality. We did not, however, found a way to bring IE producers [ :D] to even patch the darn thing. Lot's of questions here ... Things are gonna change with IE 7, you say? Hello stranger ! [ hand wave ] Welcome to Earth. We mean you no harm You know, I just realize that most of IE problems show their ugly, twisted heads around cofee time ( for any developer/designer ). Preferably before you had one. That's ...odd :) If it makes you feel better : I had my sister's 4 year girl ( adorable ) stay with me last night - her ideea - until about 3 in the morning when mother came back to pick her up. We had tea with some dolls, trim the dogs hair a little, painted some walls and ... yes ... that ... we singed SONGS. Man THAT IS NO MATCH FOR IE. Way more frightening than anything IE can throw at me. And I had NO evening ... NO night ... and ... yes ... NO MORNING ! She's back ...
Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s
anyone have a good linnk to a tut or other about footers and always having them at bottom under the content. Perhaps this article on A List Apart by Bobby Van Der Sluis can help. On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks that really sux! just another way microsucks makes our lifes miserable, truely amazing!!! From: Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:44 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] 2 ?'sRemove all the whitespace between each set of the li/li tags. That will make IE behave. i.e: no whitespace inbetween the sets of tags. lia href="" href="" service/a/lilia href="" href="" album/a/lilia href="" href="" us/a/lilia href="" href="" href="" board/a/li This same problem happenes if you create a display:inline li item - it renders one white space if there are any. Regards, Gary On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yeah, try it again, i was trying to get around a w3c error saying it couldnt find the closing body tag but its there. cutting up the page into header, nav and footer sections, when u do that the validator takes a crap From: Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:26 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject : Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s Got an error on that page. You appear to be missing the ##'s around expandPath. Could not find the included template expandPath(header.cfm). Note: If you wish to use an absolute template path (e.g. TEMPLATE=/mypath/index.cfm) with CFINCLUDE then you must create a mapping for the path using the ColdFusion Administrator. Using relative paths ( e.g. TEMPLATE=index.cfm or TEMPLATE=../index.cfm) does not require the creation of any special mappings. It is therefore recommended that you use relative paths with CFINCLUDE whenever possible. The error occurred in /vservers/thehatchflys/htdocs/controls/template.cfm: line 12 10 : /cfsilent11 : !--- include application header ---12 : cfinclude template=expandPath( header.cfm) 13 : !--- include application navigation --- 14 : cfinclude template=navigation.cfm On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks! thats the best one i have seen so far. the only 2 i have tested so far that aren't so good is on ie mac it floats up near top and on pc opera 8 it's kinda funky. seems to have even fixed my 1 px left float on safari for the header whoo hoo. another problem is the menu on pc ie6 has too big of spaces, any suggestion on that or any of it? http://www.thehatchflyshop.com/controls/template.cfmbtw~ i'm not charging the client for cssp, just going so it doesnt have to be perfect ;)thanks From: Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent : Friday, July 22, 2005 10:31 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s On 7/22/05 7:10 PM csslist sent this out: anyone have a good linnk to a tut or other about footers and always having them at bottom under the content.This was on this list recently: --- quotingLooks like someone has found a mostly-reliable CSS-only solution to that common footer problem - getting a footer to stick to the bottomof the viewport no matter how long or short the content is, which doesn't overlap the content when the window is resized:Explanation: Example: --- end quotingSeems to work in Safari and degrades okay in IE Mac.Hth,Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- snackinaboxsnackinaboxsnack in a bo
Re: [WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)
Hope,
This second rule of yours is not being applied as it has less weight than
the first rule.
This is due to specificity. Specificity is used to determine which rules
will be applied to elements if there are conflicts - such as different color
properties being applied to the p element.
Your first selector is #hilite p. This selector has a certain weight.
This weight is calculated using the following method:
- count the number of ID attributes in the selector (= a)
- count the number of other attributes pseudo-classes in the selector (=
b)
- count the number of element names in the selector (= c)
In your case this means the #hilite p selector is:
A = 1, as you have one id within the selector
B = 0, as you have no classes within the selector
C = 1, as there is one element within the selector - the p
Strange as it seems, these are added up in columns, so the total is:
a - b - c = total
In your case, this means:
1 - 0 - 1 = 101
You then try to override this for one paragraph using a selector .normal.
This selector has very little weight - the calculation for the .normal
selector is:
A = 0
B = 1, as you have one class selector
C = 0
The total is:
0 - 1 - 0 = 10
As you can see, the first selector has far more weight, and therefore it is
applied. The only way to override the first selector is to create a selector
that has more weight, or one that has the same weight and place it later in
the CSS file.
So, if you wanted to make sure the second rule was applied, you must use
something like #hilite p.normal - which calculates to 111 or #hilite
.normal which calculates to 110.
Have I confused the you?
You can read more on it here:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/advanced_conflict.htm
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/cascade.html#specificity
Disclaimer: written quickly. Happy for others to check and correct on finer
points of specificity.
Russ
There's something about inheritance that I don't understand. Say in my style
sheet I have:
body { color: black }
#content {}
#hilite p { color: red }
If I have three paragraphs in the div #hilite and I want the text of one of
them to be black instead of red, I define this class for that paragraph:
.normal { color: black }
But I find this doesn't work. For it to work, I have to define the class
with the div ID, like this:
#hilite .normal { color: black }
What is it about the laws of inheritance that means the class alone won't
work??
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)
Hello,
This has to do with specificity. The use of the id in #hilite p is a
more specific rule than the class in .normal.
When you re-write it to #hilite .normal that rule now becomes more
specific. An id is more specific than a class.
For more on this:
http://www.htmldog.com/guides/cssadvanced/specificity/
Hope Stewart wrote:
There's something about inheritance that I don't understand. Say in my style
sheet I have:
body { color: black }
#content {}
#hilite p { color: red }
If I have three paragraphs in the div #hilite and I want the text of one of
them to be black instead of red, I define this class for that paragraph:
.normal { color: black }.
But I find this doesn't work. For it to work, I have to define the class
with the div ID, like this:
#hilite .normal { color: black }
What is it about the laws of inheritance that means the class alone won't
work??
Hope Stewart
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site
thanks for the responses, agreed that the header navigation is odd, should be easy to alter though as should the odd order of the headers I find myself often using pixel sizes for fonts, a habit I am trying to break (honest - an owen briggs article will help me plus a few google searchs and of course time) personally I find it strange that he has choosen to use both sIFR and flashObject atb Sam Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: sam sherlock wrote: I happened acrosss this site on stylegala. http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/ I would like to know what the list members think of the site... Looking good in some browsers - but can't take any stress. - My Firefox doesn't like it. - Opera 8... not too bad. - Relying on font-sizes in pixels (mostly) which breaks badly in IE/win (and in all other browsers also, of course) if visitors like to have some say in the matter. - I regard this as misuse of headlines: h2a href=index.phpHome .01/a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 ...should have been a list, IMO. --- Conclusion: this looks like a page that hasn't been tested well across browser-land. Might have turned out a lot better if it were... regards Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Hi If you use a server side language to deliver dynamic markup coded to the W3C standards the important thing is to drive the code, not let the language drive how you work and what gets sent to the client. It can be frustrating hearing the html is like that because XYZ language exports the html like that. PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby, Coldfusion etc all allow this freedom in my experience / grapevine. I'm sure there are others that do the same. The proper way is whatever you are comfortable with. Cheers James On 7/23/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a rapid development solution. I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language should not really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NET and the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have more effect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that is easily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configure them properly. W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 23 July 2005 11:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Recently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a rapid development solution. I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!! "The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. " then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace. "ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging)." From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionI think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect toweb standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out lookslike it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language shouldnot really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NETand the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have moreeffect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that iseasily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configurethem properly. W-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebnSent: 23 July 2005 11:39To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionRecently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the wholeasp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only useasp byspecial request as it is not a "rapid development solution".I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to builddynamimcsites with regards to web standards?Forgive me if this is to ot.**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting helpThe discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Theres nothing wrong with any of the server side scripting languages if you build the client side output yourself. Edward Clarke ECommerce and Software Consultant TN38 Consulting http://blog.tn38.net Creative Media Centre 17-19 Robertson Street Hastings East Sussex TN34 1HL United Kingdom From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 23 July 2005 18:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to unmangle what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!!
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it wont validate, but then I suspect it wont validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 23 July 2005 18:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to unmangle what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!! The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace. ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging). From: wayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language should not really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NET and the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have more effect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that is easily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configure them properly. W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 23 July 2005 11:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Recently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a rapid development solution. I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Well no, what you say now isnt wrong but what you said before certainly was. Before you basically implied the cfm created bad markup and now you say it's the developer which is what it should be. " I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance" Thats not true at all, not even close. But I totally agree that it's all in how the developer does that makes it go :)From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:11 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it wont validate, but then I suspect it wont validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: 23 July 2005 18:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what? thats a big load of BS! what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code? if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code). coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages. Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;) most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!! "The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. " then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace. "ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging)."From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out looks like it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. In general though, I agree with James, the server side language should not really hinder this, I am developing a couple of sites using ASP.NET and the layout is pure CSS using XHTML strict. The IDE might have more effect on this as some of them play around with your code, but that is easily averted by not using design view and taking the time to configure them properly. W -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: 23 July 2005 11:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionRecently i worked on a project that involved visual studio and the whole asp.net thing. I was reading on the maxdesign site that they only use asp by special request as it is not a "rapid development solution". I guess my question is this-is cold fusion the proper way to build dynamimc sites with regards to web standards? Forgive me if this is to ot. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)
Thanks Russ Joe. It all makes sense now! I had never come across the specificity rules before. (Then again, a year ago I had never heard of web standards.) This is a rather handy thing to know. Cheers, Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question
Are we done now? Let me just say (as I wrote the offending line on the Max Design/Webboy sites) that I referred to ASP and not ASP.NET as not being a rapid development language (and I am right, it isn't... I used todo ASP sites). I really don't care what languages other people use, they all do the same thing essentially but some take less scripting than others. That par refers to whatWE do and whyWE use ColdFusion to do it(huge dev cost benefits for our customers). We turn down many job offers that specify PHP or ASP(.NET) as we could not quote competitively. That's just us. Not saying CF is better, just better for me. As for CF output, take a look at the source of http://www.frogsaustralia.net.au/- totally CF driven from a custom-built CMS and (I think) very neat source code. Now, so that this email isn't a total OT waste of time, a giggle... Take a look at what http://www.content.com.au/claim to do as a businessand then look at the source code of the pages. Notone line of text to be seen! Not even a descriptive page title or any metadata whatsoever. I love it! No comments on this please, it isn't worth discussing. We can just feel superior in our collective wisdom. P From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:20 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Well no, what you say now isnt wrong but what you said before certainly was.Before you basically implied the cfm created bad markup and now you say it's the developer which is what it should be." I think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect to web standards compliance"Thats not true at all, not even close.But I totally agree that it's all in how the developer does that makes it go :) From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:11 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question Er, wwwhat?? If you use the controls provided by MS (validation controls etc), then yes, the code is junk. But who in their right mind uses those anyway? Who has ever used those? That aside, how else does .NET mangle code? I am sorry but that was not a good reply. I have built sites in XHTML STRICT/CSS that uses .NET code behind and VALIDATES 100%. If you are in the habit of dragging and dropping your websites into existence then no, it wont validate, but then I suspect it wont validate in any language. At the end of the day it is down to the developer, their lack of knowledge and sloppy coding which makes a language produce sloppy code. Explain to me how that is wrong. W From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: 23 July 2005 18:27To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general question what?thats a big load of BS!what does using coldfusion have to do with mangling your code?if you do a simple google search you will find out the what mangles code and makes it a lot more work to unmangle is .net and vs, which is what u'd expect when you let m$ write any of your code for you (look at frontpage code and decide if you want m$ to write your code).coldfusion actually makes it much easier to control your layout code because of its tag based syntax and ease of use porting it into your pages.Sorry wayne but that wasnt a good answer ;)most of the server sides are good with compliance except .net, which you obviously can get to work but it requires much more time to "unmangle" what ms gives you which shouldnt be a suprise to anyone!!!"The code I have seen being churned out lookslike it has gone through a mangler with huge chunks of white space etc. "then you are comparing what you yourseld do to someone using cfm that doesnt know how to do it correctly, those chucks of whitespace are obviously when cfm code is and a simple solution it to wrap code thats in the presentaion view with cfsilentcfm code/cfsilent and that will take away the whitespace."ASP.NET does not produce code that is capable of passing successful validation in any of the SRTICT modes (see Eric Meyer's Picking a Rendering Mode and W3C's List of valid DTDs you can use in your document for more information on DOCTYPEs). To enforce XHTML compliant code it takes some effort to implement automatic code cleaning (all right, fudging)." From: "wayne" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 12:54 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Visual Studio/.net general questionI think you will find that coldfusion makes life harder in respect toweb standards compliance. The code I have seen being churned out lookslike it has gone
