Re: [WSG] screenshot of title display in safari - screenshots received.
Thanks to those who have emailed me with screenshots! with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant vision australia - information library service 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Download the Web Accessibility Toolbar [http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/] |-+-- | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | alia.org.au| | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | rg | | | | | | | | | 20/09/2005 03:23 PM| | | Please respond to wsg | | | | |-+-- ---| | | | To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org | | cc: | | Subject: [WSG] screenshot of title display in safari | ---| Hi can someone using Safari have a look at this page [http://www.sf.id.au/we05/title.html] and move the mouse over the text title attribute and do a screenshot of the page for me? I want to see how and if the title attribute content on the containing (P element) is displayed. I believe that Safari shows title attribute content in the status bar and would like to have an image example of this. with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant vision australia - information library service 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Download the Web Accessibility Toolbar [http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Show Hide by Class
Hi Stuart,
The screen reader will get the css, if JavaScript is enabled, which is the norm.
Though I point out that styling is not really essential to a screen reader.
Regards
Mike 2k:)2
Mike Foskett
Web Standards, Accessibility Testing Consultant
Communications
British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
Fax: 02476 411410
http://www.becta.org.uk
-Original Message-
From: Stuart Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 September 2005 01:30
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Show Hide by Class
I'm using this at the top of my js file to initially hide the topics:
if (document.getElementById) { // Content available if javascript disabled
document.write('link rel=stylesheet type=text/css
href=hide.css /');
}
I'm not sure if screen readers will read the related css. Anyone know?
Someone else also suggested I add an id to the topic list and gave me this code:
function toggle(x) {// Show Hide Content targetDiv =
document.getElementById('topicListCategory-' + x); targetDiv.style.display =
(targetDiv.style.display == 'block') ? 'none'
: 'block';
}
The server just has to output ids with a number on the end. I didn't know js
could do this. Very neat.
Stuart
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] William Dashfield/DIA is out of the office.
I will be out of the office starting 20/09/2005 and will not return until 30/09/2005. I will respond to your message when I return. CAUTION: This email message and any attachments contain information that is CONFIDENTIAL and may be LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this message or attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email message in error please notify us immediately and erase all copies of the message and attachments. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fallback elements inside Object - should they be available in the DOM?
Hi Patrick, Interesting... I think you found a bug in Firefox. The IE approach seems to be correct. Content inside the object tag is an alternative to the object tag, not an addition to it. Using your example, in IE, the following construct will submit abc to the server: object name=abc ... textarea name=def/textarea /object In FF 1.5, both abc and def will be submitted to the server. In an ideal scenario, you would want to have this construct: object name=abc ... textarea name=abc/textarea /object Patrick, this bug should be reported to Mozilla. If you are going to report it, can you please CC me on it in Bugzilla. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Patrick Lauke Date: 9/20/2005 11:37 AM Possibly a bizarre question, but: currently working on integrating XStandard http://xstandard.com in a form, but trying to make it behave more reasonably when the plugin is not installed and when javascript is off. What I discovered is a fundamental difference between IE and Firefox (not tested other browsers at this stage). Assuming we have the simplified code object textarea/textarea object If the plugin is not available, the textarea is used. Fine, no worries there. However, when the plugin IS available, IE seems to completely expunge the textarea from the DOM, while Firefox seems to remove it from the visual display, but still lets you manipulate it via javascript. (some may have gathered already, I was hoping to stuff the value of the plugin into the existing textarea's value property) A possibly academic question: which approach is right? Should the browser not make the fallback elements inside the object available? I'm coding around the issue, but I'd be curious what people think... __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Suggestion #1: Spell-check Suggestion #2: Why 100% table design? You can't control the way your user sees your site. I have a 21 inch monitor and it stretches all the way across and is somewhat overwhelming. Suggestion #3: Font size it too big...try dropping the size a little. I know accessibility is a concern, but it coming off as trying too hard. This is just my opinion...I might be wrong, good job overall however. PS - your personal website is quite nice however, clean, crisp, and the user will have the same experience every time they visit, regardless of the machine. Komal Komal Agrawal Web Developer II 713.743.7220 Office # 102F [EMAIL PROTECTED] C. T. Bauer College of Business U N I V E R S I T Y of H O U S T O N -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Clearleft.com Hi folks, We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Eh? What tables? Do you mean 100% width? Fixed-width layouts are less accessible than fluid-width layouts, although an elastic approach may be better. I have a 21" monitor (running 1280x1024) and I don't find it overwhelming at all. By the way, I absolutely love the two-cube logo design. It even looks pretty call as a favicon. Simon Jessey Business Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Business Site: http://keystonewebsites.com/ Personal Site: http://jessey.net/ - Original Message - From: Komal Agrawal To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:15 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com Suggestion #2: Why 100% table design? You can't control the way your usersees your site. I have a 21 inch monitor and it stretches all the way acrossand is somewhat overwhelming.
RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Title: RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com Hi Komal, where are the tables in that site??? Are you sure your looking at the right site? w From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Komal AgrawalSent: Tue 20/09/2005 17:15To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com Suggestion #1: Spell-checkSuggestion #2: Why 100% table design? You can't control the way your usersees your site. I have a 21 inch monitor and it stretches all the way acrossand is somewhat overwhelming.Suggestion #3: Font size it too big...try dropping the size a little. I knowaccessibility is a concern, but it coming off as trying too hard.This is just my opinion...I might be wrong, good job overall however.PS - your personal website is quite nice however, clean, crisp, and the userwill have the same experience every time they visit, regardless of themachine.KomalKomal AgrawalWeb Developer II713.743.7220Office # 102F[EMAIL PROTECTED]C. T. Bauer College of BusinessU N I V E R S I T Y of H O U S T O N-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Andy BuddSent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 10:59 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Clearleft.comHi folks,We've just launched our new company website, and would love yourfeedback.http://www.clearleft.com/YoursAndy Buddhttp://www.andybudd.com/01273 24135507880 636677**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting helpThe discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Komal Agrawal wrote: Suggestion #2: Why 100% table design? Just to clarify though: it's not a table design...it's css... Suggestion #3: Font size it too big...try dropping the size a little. PS - your personal website is quite nice however, clean, crisp, and the user will have the same experience every time they visit, regardless of the machine. Just to stoke the fire a bit: is the same experience on any machine really a good thing? Should the design not adapt to different screen sizes and capabilities? -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Hi Andy, Great look and feel. I like the font sizes, they're refreshingly readable. One wierd issue though. In Firefox on Debian (sarge), trying to use the mousewheel dies half way down the page. I usually only encounter problems like this with things like google ads and flash animations, but with those if I move the mouse away and resume using the wheel it works. With clearleft I can't continue to scroll at all with the wheel until I move the vertical scroll bar manually. It's a small issue to be sure, but if anyone can figure it out, I guess it would be the 'web-design supergroup' ;-). I'll check the behaviour on my Mac at work when I get in. Just went to check in a couple of other browsers - Opera is fine, but the site dropped off the radar when trying to test in anything else. Cheers, Damian We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ Server issues? Won't come up now... - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Search engines
This might be off topic, so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was thinking of adding a search engine to a web site. What is a simple web standard compliant search engine? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Andy Budd wrote: http://www.clearleft.com/ Looking and working well in Op, Moz/FF ,IE6 on normal windows/screens (800 to 1280). Q: do you trigger the 'extreme font-resizing bug' in IE/win on purpose? Sure makes 'largest' large enough, but 'smallest' ends up a bit too small. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Komal Agrawal wrote: From: Andy Budd We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ http://www.andybudd.com/ Suggestion #3: Font size it too big...try dropping the size a little. I know accessibility is a concern, but it coming off as trying too hard. Actually more web sites should be using larger than default where emphasis is desired. It is a much too rare treat to not need to zoom to see most of a page in my default size without a user stylesheet forcing it to be so. If that page needs smaller text, it is only because your own default is wrong for you. It looks equally nice whether the viewport rectangle is horizontal or vertical, though it's easy to make it narrow enough to force H1 to wrap with that 2.4em size. I'd probably use 'impact, arial bold, sans-serif' at 2em or maybe 1.8em. The only noteworthy fault I see on that page is some grammar in the #highlight paragraph. Epiphany has a peekaboo problem with it. If I scroll the page up and down with the keyboard, Make Websites Better following We disappears. If I hit end and home keys it reappears. -- Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. Psalm 55:22 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search engines
I found that the Fluid Dynamics search engine(http://www.xav.com/scripts/search/) was fairly easy to sort out for standards based design with a bit of tinkering (i.e. don't use the table based layout they give you for the search box) - their site will also install it all for you as well. You'll need CGI script execution enabled and PERL installed on your server though so you'll have to check with your ISP... Lee (Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: This might be off topic, so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was thinking of adding a search engine to a web site. What is a simple web standard compliant search engine? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
On Sep 20, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Andy Budd wrote: http://www.clearleft.com/ One really minor comment... the 'clear:left' text used in paragraphs is bold (and rather tight - O8.5 Mac), whereas the type in the logo is not. I'm pretty sure I know why, but it's just something I noticed. I had some time on my hands, what can I say... :o) - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Site looks great. Slightly OT but the user survey is using a TIFF image that is not showing up in Word (Office 2003 WinXP Pro) - says something about needing Quicktime installed! I'm sure you could make it work without! James Andy Budd wrote: Hi folks, We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
I like the fluid layout and the large text. Very nice site. Thanks for not following the cliched fixed width layout. On 9/20/05, Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi folks,We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback.http://www.clearleft.com/YoursAndy Buddhttp://www.andybudd.com/01273 24135507880 636677 **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
A little on the boring side, where are the images, the site is just text. - Original Message - From: Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:58 AM Subject: [WSG] Clearleft.com Hi folks, We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com
I was going mention something about that (it is a bit OT...). The only other time I have seen this issue was when I used Mac OSX's Grab application and pasted the image into Word (on Mac OSX) and then opened it on a PC. A solution is to to apply some formatting like scratch removal or a little red-eye remover. Somehow this makes Word on the Mac store the image as something our PC friends can see... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Gollan Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 9:20 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com Site looks great. Slightly OT but the user survey is using a TIFF image that is not showing up in Word (Office 2003 WinXP Pro) - says something about needing Quicktime installed! I'm sure you could make it work without! James Andy Budd wrote: Hi folks, We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Try to have a look at Jello layout, I think it will boost the usability in some exteme conditions. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Suggestion #1: Spell-check We have gone over the site a couple of times, however nothing on the web is ever finished. If you've found some particular typos, it would be great if you could let me know what they are. Suggestion #2: Why 100% table design? You can't control the way your user sees your site. I have a 21 inch monitor and it stretches all the way across and is somewhat overwhelming. Um, its actually a pure CSS layout, so no tables were harmed. Part of the point of web standards in general is that the user and user agent have final control of the layout, not the designer. So if the page is too wide on a 21 inch monitor, why not reduce the window size? However I don't want to get into the whole fixed vs flexible layout debate or we'll be here all night :-) Suggestion #3: Font size it too big...try dropping the size a little. I know accessibility is a concern, but it coming off as trying too hard. Not trying hard at all. We liked the big fonts size partly for accessibility, but also partly because we were fed up with tiny designer sized fonts. I do wonder if the size is a little to big, especially on lower screen resolutions. However on large screen resolutions I think it works well. I guess if you personally find it too big, you could always knock it down a notch. This is just my opinion...I might be wrong, good job overall however. Always good to hear this kind of feedback as its a good way to test your beliefs and assumptions. Cheers PS - your personal website is quite nice however, clean, crisp, and the user will have the same experience every time they visit, regardless of the machine. Yes, I must sort that out. About due for a redesign :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
On 20 Sep 2005, at 18:33, Damian Sweeney wrote: Hi Andy, Great look and feel. I like the font sizes, they're refreshingly readable. One wierd issue though. In Firefox on Debian (sarge), trying to use the mousewheel dies half way down the page. I usually only encounter problems like this with things like google ads and flash animations, but with those if I move the mouse away and resume using the wheel it works. With clearleft I can't continue to scroll at all with the wheel until I move the vertical scroll bar manually. It's a small issue to be sure, but if anyone can figure it out, I guess it would be the 'web-design supergroup' ;-). I'll check the behaviour on my Mac at work when I get in. Apparently it's a Firefox bug relating to overflow:auto. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97283 Just went to check in a couple of other browsers - Opera is fine, but the site dropped off the radar when trying to test in anything else. Um, do you mean that the site doesn't work in any other browser other than Opera or Firefox? Can I ask what you tested it on? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)
This thread has got me thinking. If verbs are not the go in link text, where does that leave us with 'skip to' links at the beginning of a page? Should we just use 'main content' or 'navigation/menu'? Also, Richard. The text sounds more passive because I've put it in the passive voice. You can nominalise [1] most phrases to put them into the passive, however, this does change the emphasis, as you mentioned. If we want links to be incorporated into the flow of the language and make sense out of context then should we be constrained to a particular style of writing to achieve this? Still open minded about this, just curious what others are thinking. Cheers, Damian [1] http://unilearning.uow.edu.au/academic/3b.html Hey Damian, Very valid point! It's not too difficult to turn a verb into an adjective. Somehow, though, reading your example I get the feeling that it's a very passive voice to read in. It almost *feels* like: Here's the Registration Form (which by the way you can also fill in). What else would you do with an online form? You could print it, but again 'print' (and 'register') seem to be different verbs to 'complete' and 'fill in'. They sound like context-specific Tasks rather than simply actions. In which case, I'd probably want to use the verb as the link text - it seems more forceful (at least from a marketing perspective) and there's absolutely no confusion as to what you are being asked to do: Register! Don't just look at the registration form and decide whether or not to. In response to Christian's claim - sorry but no one said we were abandoning the title attribute at all! This is a question of usability, rather than accessibility. R :o) -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Q: do you trigger the 'extreme font-resizing bug' in IE/win on purpose? Sure makes 'largest' large enough, but 'smallest' ends up a bit too small. I have to be honest and admit that I haven't come across that bug before. Did a bit of a search but couldn't find any details. Could you elaborate? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)
-Original Message- From: Damian Sweeney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 9:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference) This thread has got me thinking. If verbs are not the go in link text, where does that leave us with 'skip to' links at the beginning of a page? Should we just use 'main content' or 'navigation/menu'? Also, Richard. The text sounds more passive because I've put it in the passive voice. You can nominalise [1] most phrases to put them into the passive, however, this does change the emphasis, as you mentioned. If we want links to be incorporated into the flow of the language and make sense out of context then should we be constrained to a particular style of writing to achieve this? Still open minded about this, just curious what others are thinking. Seriously, in my opinion there is no logical reason why we should not be allowed to put verbs into a link. In fact, I find that demand utterly ridiculous. It's got nothing to do with accessibility and in many cases can reduce usability. Put them in if they are useful, leave them out if they are useless. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
A little on the boring side, where are the images, the site is just text. Well I wanted to make the logo spin, but the others thought it was a bad idea ;-) Seriously though, we will be adding pictures of us on the relevant about pages, as well as creating a case study area in the not too distant future to highlight interesting work. However I do think that the site is about the text rather than superfluous images, so we wanted to put the content at the forefront of the site. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Dodge the bad and just watch all the good, Andy. It's a great site. It's visual simplicity belies the efforts you've gone to in creating it. I love the testimonial blockquote styling. Tray shiek. I've gotta tell you though, I did notice a few clear: rights in those stylesheets. :) One curious thing I noticed (which only appears if you really scrunch the page size) is that the header actually develops horizontal and vertical scrollbars. No biggie. I was at about 600x480 at that stage. Again, kudos for going with a fluid full-width display. Makes me feel less alone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 9:19 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com A little on the boring side, where are the images, the site is just text. Well I wanted to make the logo spin, but the others thought it was a bad idea ;-) Seriously though, we will be adding pictures of us on the relevant about pages, as well as creating a case study area in the not too distant future to highlight interesting work. However I do think that the site is about the text rather than superfluous images, so we wanted to put the content at the forefront of the site. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Apparently it's a Firefox bug relating to overflow:auto. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97283 Ah, cool. Site is fine in latest Firefox on OS X. Just went to check in a couple of other browsers - Opera is fine, but the site dropped off the radar when trying to test in anything else. Um, do you mean that the site doesn't work in any other browser other than Opera or Firefox? Can I ask what you tested it on? Sorry, my bad. I should have been clearer. The site failed to load from about 3:30am Melbourne for a couple of hours. Can't remember when it came back, but when it did the site worked well on other browsers. Cheers, Damian -- -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Oh, one small encoding issue (?) which came up as well. For some reason I'm getting the HTML entity and not the in the text below. Download and complete our client worksheet, and weapos;ll send you a proposal within a week. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 1:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Clearleft.com Hi folks, We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Andy Budd wrote: I have to be honest and admit that I haven't come across that bug before. Did a bit of a search but couldn't find any details. Could you elaborate? Change the font-size in body, use 100.01% instead of 1em Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Andy Budd wrote: Georg wrote: Q: do you trigger the 'extreme font-resizing bug' in IE/win on purpose? Sure makes 'largest' large enough, but 'smallest' ends up a bit too small. I have to be honest and admit that I haven't come across that bug before. Did a bit of a search but couldn't find any details. Could you elaborate? If I'm not mistaken about what Georg meant, Inheritance on http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=InternetExplorerWinBugs has a short explanation. http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/IE/IE6FontInherit.html has an example. -- Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. Psalm 55:22 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] two background images + fixed width layout
Hi, I am working on a fixed width layout site that I would like to use two background images. I know that it's impossible to do so in CSS however is there a (standards compliant) trick I could use? Or do you know CSS based website that use two background images that you can point me to? I was thinking to use extra divs just for background images but with fixed layout my content gone south as soon as I applied the extra divs. Please see the current layout here: http://lxm.lotusseeds.com/index.html The first part of background image (dark green) is placed in the #container which goes all the way down to #footer. Then I have the drop shadow part of the background (dark green and earth tone) in #wrapper, and the first part of earth tone placed in #supportingText, then the bottom part in #footer. However I would like to achieve this: the first part of dark green background image runs across entire screen horizontally (repeat-x) (I guess I can set a fixed height with no repeat-y to achieve the visual effect I wanted) the second part of earth tone background image runs across entire screen horizontally (repeat-x) and everything in the #container stays the same. Is this do-able? Thanks in advance! tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Sorry, my bad. I should have been clearer. The site failed to load from about 3:30am Melbourne for a couple of hours. Can't remember when it came back, but when it did the site worked well on other browsers. Phew, had me worried there for a second. I guess our servers must have got stuck with all the traffic from the WSG :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fallback elements inside Object - should they be available in the DOM?
Form input elements that are - alternative - content within an object should not be submitted to the webserver via a post or get, I agree with Vlad, its a bug. However whether the element is available from the DOM is another question. Once the document strcuture has been passed by the browser and the DOM nodes created, I can't see why it shouldn't be available within the DOM. As it _is_ actually part of the document, its just hidden by the browser in most cases. Going back to the issue of submitted form elements, if the browser is smart enough to hide the alternative content it should be smart enough to disable alternative input elements too. I'm sure its been discussed on the mozilla dev list before. The question really comes back to how the browser passes the document structure and sets up its DOM nodes, IE's parser is probably intrsructed to skip over these elements and ignore them completely, while Firefox just chucks the whole document into the DOM regardless. Regards Chris On 9/21/05, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Patrick,Interesting... I think you found a bug in Firefox. The IE approach seems to be correct. Content inside the object tag is an alternative to the object tag, not an addition to it. Using your example, in IE, the following construct will submit abc to the server:object name=abc ...textarea name=def/textarea/objectIn FF 1.5, both abc and def will be submitted to the server. In an ideal scenario, you would want to have this construct:object name=abc ...textarea name=abc/textarea/objectPatrick, this bug should be reported to Mozilla. If you are going to report it, can you please CC me on it in Bugzilla. Regards,-Vladhttp://xstandard.com Original Message From: Patrick LaukeDate: 9/20/2005 11:37 AM Possibly a bizarre question, but: currently working on integrating XStandard http://xstandard.com in a form, but trying to make it behave more reasonably when the plugin is not installed and when _javascript_ is off. What I discovered is a fundamental difference between IE and Firefox (not tested other browsers at this stage). Assuming we have the simplified code object textarea/textarea object If the plugin is not available, the textarea is used. Fine, no worries there. However, when the plugin IS available, IE seems to completely expunge the textarea from the DOM, while Firefox seems to remove it from the visual display, but still lets you manipulate it via _javascript_. (some may have gathered already, I was hoping to stuff the value of the plugin into the existing textarea's value property) A possibly academic question: which approach is right? Should the browser not make the fallback elements inside the object available? I'm coding around the issue, but I'd be curious what people think... __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] two background images + fixed width layout
Tee, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to achieve but why don't you
just try nesting a couple of divs and giving them a background image each?
The following example illustrates the idea and would visually display a
three column layout. Of course, you could use and combination of images and
positiong that you liked.
#main1 {background: url(../images/grey.gif) top left repeat-y;}
#main2 {background:url(../images/blue.gif) top right repeat-y;}
div id=main1
div id=main2
/div/div
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 9:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] two background images + fixed width layout
Hi, I am working on a fixed width layout site that I would like to use two
background images. I know that it's impossible to do so in CSS however is
there a (standards compliant) trick I could use? Or do you know CSS based
website that use two background images that you can point me to?
I was thinking to use extra divs just for background images but with fixed
layout my content gone south as soon as I applied the extra divs.
Please see the current layout here:
http://lxm.lotusseeds.com/index.html
The first part of background image (dark green) is placed in the #container
which goes all the way down to #footer.
Then I have the drop shadow part of the background (dark green and earth
tone) in #wrapper, and the first part of earth tone placed in
#supportingText, then the bottom part in #footer.
However I would like to achieve this:
the first part of dark green background image runs across entire screen
horizontally (repeat-x) (I guess I can set a fixed height with no repeat-y
to achieve the visual effect I wanted)
the second part of earth tone background image runs across entire screen
horizontally (repeat-x)
and everything in the #container stays the same.
Is this do-able?
Thanks in advance!
tee
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Fluid, simple, clean, valid, green yet warm, big fonts ( like big hair ) Nice work Andy. I like it.
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Hi Andy, Site looks great, nice and clean. And don't listen to any of these 'the font is too big' comments, it's just about perfect for my aging eyes (great, now I feel old :) Two things that jumped out at me: * I kind of expected the entire green background of the navigation items to be clickable, not a biggy though. * The 'clear' part of the 'clear:left' text in the body seems to jump out a bit - not neccesarily a bad thing for branding, but it does get a bit distracting on pages that have it occuring a few times. Maybe dropping the colour down a notch (to about #333) in the main content would help. On 9/21/05, Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi folks,We've just launched our new company website, and would love yourfeedback.http://www.clearleft.com/-- Lindsay Evans http://lindsayevans.com/
Re: [WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)
Damian Sweeney said: where does that leave us with 'skip to' links[...] Should we just use 'main content' or 'navigation/menu'? yes, I believe you are correct Damien... I've argued this point before =) kind regards Terrence Wood ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] two background images + fixed width layout
On Sep 20, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Webmaster wrote:
Tee, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to achieve but why
don't you
just try nesting a couple of divs and giving them a background
image each?
Hi,
Sorry for my poor English :(
This is what I want :
http://lxm.lotusseeds.com/example.gif
The following example illustrates the idea and would visually
display a
three column layout. Of course, you could use and combination of
images and
positiong that you liked.
#main1 {background: url(../images/grey.gif) top left repeat-y;}
#main2 {background:url(../images/blue.gif) top right repeat-y;}
div id=main1
div id=main2
/div/div
And this requires fluid layout?
tee
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
I think that the fix is 100.01% on the html element and the 1em (or what ever height) on body element. This prevents scaling issues in older versions of Opera and in Internet Explorer. I can try to find you references tomorrow. Looks great! On 9/20/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andy Budd wrote: I have to be honest and admit that I haven't come across that bug before. Did a bit of a search but couldn't find any details. Could you elaborate?Change the font-size in body, use 100.01% instead of 1em-- __Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/ Web Standards Projecthttp://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/ Guild of Accessible Web Designershttp://www.gawds.org/
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
We liked the big fonts size partly for accessibility, but also partly because we were fed up with tiny designer sized fonts. I do wonder if the size is a little to big, especially on lower screen resolutions. However on large screen resolutions I think it works well. I guess if you personally find it too big, you could always knock it down a notch. Hi Andy, I am not a fan of tiny font size. Your body text is perfect for my still-young-eyes however I do feel that the h2s are shouting at me :) Maybe that is your intention to get your audience attention? tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] two background images + fixed width layout
Hi, Sorry for my poor English :( This is what I want : http://lxm.lotusseeds.com/example.gif Ah, yes. That helps. It's tricky but do-able. The trick will be using GIFs with transparency. All very accessible. And this requires fluid layout? Not at all. In fact, fixed layout would probably suit your purposes better here unless you were going to use the same alignment on all your background images. Incidentally, I would try to achieve this with two images and no more. Play around with it and you'll get something you're happy with. It may not mirrow the original image exactly though. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
the size of font was Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:58:33 +0100, Andy Budd wrote: We liked the big fonts size partly for accessibility, but also partly because we were fed up with tiny designer sized fonts. I do wonder if the size is a little to big, especially on lower screen resolutions. However on large screen resolutions I think it works well. I guess if you personally find it too big, you could always knock it down a notch. I realise this risks starting a religious war, but I guess I am feeling contentious ;) I like Andy's latest effort - the font size is a literal shock to the eye, but the more I look at it, the more I like it. The 'small font' school is attributed to 20-something designers who don't need specs yet (not me!) but I tend to small-and-tight myself. But when I stop and look at this sort of layout, I think back to some of the explanations I give to prospects of what a website can do for them: One use is as a brochure for your business where you never run out of stock. I always like that simile, and it seems to sit well with the prospects too. Thinking about those brochures we are contemplating replacing, we see that they are always spaciously and nicely laid out. If the customer has to squint at them, they have failed. I think we should try and do that more with our websites. We have an infinite number of pages we can deliver to the customer, I think I will be trying to fill that space a little better in future - less is more :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera 8.5 released, now no registration fee ad-free permanently
Yes, Opera has gone insane with happiness and have released their browser free, without an ad bar permanently. I guess it was inevitable. Yeah, to really get competitive they needed to go free. People might use their browser pretty much constantly, but it doesn't occur to them that perhaps that might have made it worth paying for a better one ;) It's annoying really. People use the net as a fundamental part of their lives, but they resent any suggestion that perhaps that makes their computer important enough to rate some maintenance and update outlay (time/money). I'm most interested in what this will mean for us web developers -- Opera support might become even more of a requirement now than ever? Well, with my standards-moral-highground hat on, I'd say it should make no difference ;) Realistically it's still really hard to know how many people out there actually use Opera, since browser stats are an imprecise science at best (I talk on this at length at http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2005/06/lies-damn-lies-and-browser-statistics.html so i'll skip it here). Now that it's free it's reasonable to expect some level of increased usage - particularly at a time when a lot of security holes have been found in Firefox in quick succession. Many people are now vaguely aware that IE is not the only browser around, so it's as good a time as any for Opera to take this step. So... for developers I'd say it just means you should (still) test your pages in Opera. Those who are new to including Opera in their development routine might want to check out the resources offered by Opera... again, I've posted on this before so I won't repeat it all here: http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2005/07/opera-development-resources-open-web.html cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: the size of font was Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Lea de Groot wrote: I like Andy's latest effort - the font size is a literal shock to the eye, but the more I look at it, the more I like it. I like it too. It is good to be able to read a web page without having to correct it first. ... Thinking about those brochures we are contemplating replacing, we see that they are always spaciously and nicely laid out. If the customer has to squint at them, they have failed. I think we should try and do that more with our websites. Most web pages are designed to look at -- not for easy reading. Shouldn't be much of a problem to design them to cover both. Come to think of it: readable fonts don't add to the page-weight, so we can create larger, faster and more impressive pages with a lot less work. :-) Think I'll let further comments come from a little friend of mine: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/molly_1_01.html Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera 8.5 released, now no registration fee ad-free permanently
Opera support might become even more of a requirement now than ever? I'm under the impression that Opera support is crucial for a web standards developer - simply because it is one of the most compliant browsers. Long live Opera! -- Johnno Shadbolt Shadbolt Organisation, Web Developer www.shadbolt.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)
On 9/21/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not on this don't use verbs boat at all because I haven't yetfound (or just missed :( ) a justification for it.While I don't bydefault, or even often, use a verb in a link, sometimes I do.For instance, one of the pages on a current project allows you to view a video.The link is a href="" Video Now/a, on thedownload page, but the links throughout the site that point to thatpage say similar to:You can view a a href="" something.htmlvideo clip/aThe difference is that one points to a page and one allows you to dosomething (in this case view a movie)Verbs can be very useful. I don't understand the blanket ban. At the same time, I wouldn't be terribly upset to see:You can a href="" a video clip/aWhy is this bad?warmly, Although to view a video, one technically needs to download it first (or at least a portion of it -- ie streaming), I think the real problem with using verbs in link text, is that you are assuming the user will do something, or that something is going to happen. In the video example, one may have an embedded movie player in their browser, hence I would think of this as playing a video, as opposed to downloading it. Evening viewing could be thought of as inappropriate, what if the user is blind? Although it's quite bland, something along the lines of: A a href="" clip/a is available. makes more sense to me. Cheers, Daniel Nitsche
[WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac
Hi,
Can anyone enlighten me about keyboard onclick activation problems on Mac?
I have found problems when I have a link such as this:
a href=# onclick=if(!window.print){alert('Your browser does not support
this feature.Please select print from the file
menu')}else{window.print()};return false;Print/a
Mac IE 5.2 - can tab to the link but pressing return does nothing
Mac IE5.1 - can tab to the link but pressing return does nothing
Safari 1.0.3 - cannot even tab to the links
Safari 2.0 - works
Netscape 6.2 - works
Netscape 7.0 - works
Netscape 7.2 - cannot even tab to the links
Firefox 1.0.6 - works
On Windows all browsers I have tested work fine.
*
thanks in advance!
Grant
**
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
