Re: [WSG] doing things right
Bob Schwartz wrote: That's what I thought, but a few days ago someone made a snide remark about them on a test page I had put up, so I just thought I'd double check. Was it because css was being used to indicate a cell was selected when there was no data there (nbsp)? I'm glad you brought this up because I've just realized I have done the same thing with a calendar showing dates available. I've used css to indicate availability when the actual data tells me nothing. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Chris, Also, from you(?) (has been fixed), but there was a reference from someone else as to the need for all the nbsp's that populate the empty cells. Bob Schwartz wrote: That's what I thought, but a few days ago someone made a snide remark about them on a test page I had put up, so I just thought I'd double check. Was it because css was being used to indicate a cell was selected when there was no data there (nbsp)? I'm glad you brought this up because I've just realized I have done the same thing with a calendar showing dates available. I've used css to indicate availability when the actual data tells me nothing. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Hi, Thank you for your email. I am out of the office travelling until Monday 19th March, and will have limited email access during this time. For support related enquiries please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED], otherwise I will respond to you when I can. Regards, Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights
Hello everyone, I always work with PHP, use it to output my (x)HTML in the way i want. Now a get to a agency that only work with ASP, i just can believe that there's no way to avoid runnet_server, IDs with 1000 characters, the some IDs on img, values of forms with 50lines height, and the form at the start that dont let me usa any Strict Language. Iam not good with ASP, many of the functions i dont understand, i do know that some of this points are easy to change but others like the bigs ID. Iam working with the interface/html team and maybe the team that build the aplications wouldn be so open to that changes, they say that is easiest and quicky putting the native elements of .net tham building, i believe that but and the others people that update or even the weight of pages. I just want to help change this, http://www.ispa.pt u could check the biggest value of a form that i see. Could someone give me some links or some stuff that someone without knowledge of ASP could help implementing some improves generate GOOD (X)HTML Many thanks, Gaspar I have already have found some: http://www.charon.co.uk/content.aspx?CategoryID=28ArticleID=53 http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/02/20/asp-net-ajax-and-sharepoint.aspx http://www.webstandards.org/2004/10/08/aspnet-standards-part-ii/ http://www.aspnetresources.com/articles/default.aspx http://www.aspnetresources.com/articles/HttpFilters.aspx -- Make it simple for the people -- http://www.artideias.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE
I thinks this would help,
http://www.friendsofed.com/download.html?isbn=1590595335
DOM Scripting
he have somes examples it's allowed to download, in chapter 11 on
contact.html see the example.
And if u buy the book u will learn some good stuff .
On 04/03/07, Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have built a standard form with a list of options using radio buttons.
The form is for internal use only but I still want to maintain standards
and accessibility.
To improve the look of it for the client I have added some javascript
which hides the buttons and uses onclick events on the labels so that
the submit button doesn't need to be clicked.
This works fine on Firefox but does not work on IE with javascript enabled.
I did a search and found that there may be a conflict where there is a
document.submit and a submit button in the html.
I tried removing the submit button using the DOM but that has no effect.
I was rather pleased to get this working on Firefox as its my first
attempt at completely separating scripting and html.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
See code below.
===
window.onload = initElement
function initElement() {
var inputs,i;
if (document.library_form) {
inputs=document.getElementsByTagName('input')
for(i=0;iinputs.length;i++) {
inputs[i].style.display = 'none'
inputs[i].onclick = function() { submitform(); return false }
}
n = i - 1
o = document.getElementById('library_form')
p = o.getElementsByTagName('div')[n]
o.removeChild(p)
}
}
function submitform() {
document.getElementById('library_form').submit();
}
Kind Regards
--
Chris Price
Choctaw
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.choctaw.co.uk
Tel. 01524 825 245
Mob. 0777 451 4488
Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional
~~~
-+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+-
~~~
Choctaw Media Limited is a company
registered in England and Wales
with company number 04627649
Registered Office:
Lonsdale Partners,
Priory Close,
St Mary's Gate,
Lancaster LA1 1XB
United Kingdom
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Make it simple for the people
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE
Gaspar wrote: I thinks this would help, http://www.friendsofed.com/download.html?isbn=1590595335 DOM Scripting he have somes examples it's allowed to download, in chapter 11 on contact.html see the example. And if u buy the book u will learn some good stuff . On 04/03/07, Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have built a standard form with a list of options using radio buttons. To improve the look of it for the client I have added some javascript which hides the buttons and uses onclick events on the labels so that the submit button doesn't need to be clicked. This works fine on Firefox but does not work on IE with javascript enabled. Thanks for the link. I fixed the problem last week. The problem was, I had hidden the radio buttons using js and IE decided it couldn't submit a button that didn't exist. I have since hidden the buttons by absolutely positioning the labels. With js disabled it all reverts to a standard form. I have to say that most of the problems I have had with IE lately have actually been faults with my code or logic where Firefox has been too forgiving. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
On Mar 10, 2007, at 2:07 PM, Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, etc... I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Andrew Maben wrote: On Mar 10, 2007, at 2:07 PM, Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, etc... I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew Thanks Andrew - Simon put me on to this also, and it's EXACTLY what the validator is demanding. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a This is an elegant solution but has one drawback. The title attribute is sometimes not supported by screen readers. Even in screen readers that do support titles, the option is not often turned on due to lack of knowledge or information overload. For many screen reader users, the solution above would give repeated links saying buy now - which is not ideal. Steve Faulkner wrote about the inaccessibility of title attributes a while ago: http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/ A possible solution, as mentioned before on this thread, is to use slightly more descriptive link content - such as including the title in the link content. You can also hide some of the link content if needed: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/more-links/ The interesting challenge here is the difference between passing accessibility tests vs helping real world users. The title method shown above is elegant and would pass many accessibility tests, yet could be less than ideal for real world screen reader users. The slightly more verbose methods, including those where hiding is used, are less elegant but much more accessible for real users. The choice, as always, is yours :) Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew Thanks Andrew - Simon put me on to this also, and it's EXACTLY what the validator is demanding. There really is not an accessibility validator in the same sense as there is an HTML or CSS validator. Accessibility is not black and white. I believe your original code is fine: h1 EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER /h1 a href=esim/btsa.htmlAbout the book/a a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a h1 MANCHESTER KISS /h1 a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.htmlWhat the critics say/a An assistive reader, in the vast majority of cases, is not going to machine-gun What the critics say. It's going to read the headings, then the content/links that come below. This might be a case of overanalyzing things a bit. The goal is not to satisfy a machine-based checker, but to provide a usable and accessible page. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Sounds like a job for the likes of Visio, or Illustrator. Since you don't appear to need anything functional, I would avoid the complexities of NVU or Dreamweaver. You would need to spend five minutes providing the basic shapes, but then it is all down to the user. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Roper Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:15 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
A pen and a yellow legal pad. Lightweight, portable, can be used on the airplane, available anywhere for under $5, available in a wide array of colors, understood by everyone, supports annotations of all kinds, and is the same sophisticated tool used by 99% of web designers world wide for making initial concept sketches. -Original Message- From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE
I thinks this would help, http://www.friendsofed.com/download.html?isbn=1590595335 DOM Scripting he have somes examples it's allowed to download, in chapter 11 on contact.html see the example. And if u buy the book u will learn some good stuff . If you (or anyone else reading this) are in or near the novice class of javascripting, the above listed book, while a very good book, won't get you there. PPK on Javascript by Peter-Paul Koch is more novice friendly. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Try Axure ( http://www.axure.com/) On 3/12/07 9:15 AM, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
If you use a Mac, OmniGraffle is a good tool for this purpose. http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/ On 3/12/07 9:15 AM, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Chris Williams wrote: A pen and a yellow legal pad. hehe, or how about MS Paint? poor thing barely gets a look-in these days. I think most of the comps I receive are done in word... Just find something they know how to use already, save faffing around with any software training and the speight of support calls it leads to. -Original Message- From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. There's a prototyping tool called Denim (http://dub.washington.edu/denim/) which may be what you're looking for. It works best with a digital tablet and is designed for sketching a web interface. It will require 15-20 minutes of demonstration for your client to learn. That said, Chris's recommendation of a pen and legal pad is probably the best way to go. -Tim -- * Tim Offenstein - Web Specialist - CITES - AHS - 244-2700 * A cheerful heart is a good medicine Proverbs 17:22 NRSV *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
OneNote 2007 is pretty cool. It's sort of fits in with the legal pad suggestion (smile), except it's electronic, and is closer to a spiral notebook than a legal pad. Comes with a few ruled templates as well, and you can use a stylus! ByteDreams -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Roper Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 10:15 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
So, according the the site Georg posted, the world's most used browser does not support the empty-cells property. In light of that bit of news, would tdnbsp;/td still be considered the wrong answer? Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer -- the nbsp; is meaningless. Reasoning: if you don't put a holder into the cell and you select a border (or not) the cell border won't show on this cell as without content the cell collapses. Uh, that's why CSS provides the empty-cells property: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#propdef-empty-cells *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer -- the nbsp; is meaningless. Meaningless under certain definitions but completely harmless. Besides, an empty cell is already meaningless. Attack the very notion if you're truly concerned about a semantic table. In any case it's certainly unambiguous and processable by csv. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Bob Schwartz wrote: In light of that bit of news, would tdnbsp;/td still be considered the wrong answer? pony warning Of course! You should _always_ follow standard, even when it doesn't work... ...but, if reality kicks in, then you _can_ use td!--[if IE]nbsp;![endif]--/td and apply the empty-cells property for compliant browsers, and maybe get away with it ;-) /pony warning The answer is simple: use standards as far as they get you, and then add whatever is necessary to make it work. I don't know if there is any working alternatives to tdnbsp;/td for IE/win, so I would simply use it until someone comes up with a better - and working - solution. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: Meaningless under certain definitions but completely harmless. Besides, an empty cell is already meaningless. Excuse me? In any DB (or programming language) I use, a null value is *not* equal or equivalent to a space character. In any case it's certainly unambiguous and processable by csv. It might be visually inconsequential, but if the displayed table is intended to be imported into some other application, then I'd say it's definitely important not to introduce fabricated content solely for display purposes. YMMV, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Hassan Schroeder wrote: Excuse me? In any DB (or programming language) I use, a null value is *not* equal or equivalent to a space character. Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. If somebody's copying and pasting HTML into a database, spaces in supposedly empty cells is the least of your worries. If someone really wants to implement this, I'd have the source document as XML or CSV. Use XSLT to turn it into HTML, have the javascript load only on HTML web pages on the internet, client-side (sorry if I sound patronising, I have difficulty expressing these things without spelling them out). But I'm no expert. I don't actually know any XSLT, and I'm not entirely sure of myself when I say using HTML as the master source for conversion into other data files is such a bad idea. I just think that if you have the need and means to do that, you wouldn't be drawing direct from HTML in the first place - HTML would be the last step of presentation of that data for web, in my mind - you'd access a purer version or at least use a parsing tool before putting it into anything else. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. FWIW I don't agree, the content layer would be *clean*. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. If somebody's copying and pasting HTML into a database It shouldn't matter what is being done with the data. The data provided should be free of junk used for presentational effect, so that it can be used by any user agent without having to work around presentational hacks. spaces in supposedly empty cells is the least of your worries. If someone really wants to implement this, I'd have the source document as XML or CSV. Use XSLT to turn it into HTML, have the javascript load only on HTML web pages on the internet, client-side (sorry if I sound patronising, I have difficulty expressing these things without spelling them out). Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? But I'm no expert. I don't actually know any XSLT, and I'm not entirely sure of myself when I say using HTML as the master source for conversion into other data files is such a bad idea. I just think that if you have the need and means to do that, you wouldn't be drawing direct from HTML in the first place - HTML would be the last step of presentation of that data for web But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. in my mind - you'd access a purer version or at least use a parsing tool before putting it into anything else. Why should a parsing tool have to have a special case to interpret a non-breaking space as non-data? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Thierry Koblentz wrote: How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. FWIW I don't agree, the content layer would be *clean*. So the user agent gets clean content providing it doesn't support JavaScript. Great. Now all we have to do is make sure that no user agent supports JavaScript and everyone will get a clean DOM. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? ... But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. Internet, David. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Are you honestly going to write these things in HTML, and for purposes other than the internet? I honestly can't conceive of this. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: David Dorward wrote: Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? ... But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. Internet, David. Sorry, somehow I misread that. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Its a language for marking up documents. Sometimes documents have tables of data in them. Why shouldn't a user agent (no matter if it is a graphical browser, or a screen reader, or a bot that is extracting the data to perform some calculations on it, or anything else) be given semantically and structurally correct data? As an author, I write documents. Other people then read them, what they read them with is outside my control. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I'd like to apologize for being snarky with my first reply. That's what I get for replying before the first cup of coffee. It's just that, in my experience, the time spent spec'ing and teaching people to use spec'ing tools is better spent with a rough cut alpha/beta running and people giving live feedback as they play with it. I prefer to just start with *something/anything* [hat tip to Tod Rundgren] and work from there. But clearly it's your client, and you have to work they way they want to work. Chris -Original Message- From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Al Sparber wrote: From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew Thanks Andrew - Simon put me on to this also, and it's EXACTLY what the validator is demanding. There really is not an accessibility validator in the same sense as there is an HTML or CSS validator. Accessibility is not black and white. I believe your original code is fine: h1 EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER /h1 a href=esim/btsa.htmlAbout the book/a a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a h1 MANCHESTER KISS /h1 a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.htmlWhat the critics say/a An assistive reader, in the vast majority of cases, is not going to machine-gun What the critics say. It's going to read the headings, then the content/links that come below. This might be a case of overanalyzing things a bit. The goal is not to satisfy a machine-based checker, but to provide a usable and accessible page. Thanks Al, I appreciate your input on this. Point is, I am new to giving accessibility some serious consideration (other than the obvious simple things) and my only teacher at this stage are the various checkers such as those which come in the FF dev toolbar. Only this last week I decided to put a few sites on the W3C site thing (http://www.w3csites.com/) and, of course, you have to specify certain ratings such as html validation as well as WAI/section 508 validation. I thought this was an interesting challenge/tutorial to see what was needed to get my sites to pass automatic WAI3 validation. It has been a very educational exercise and there has been a couple of things (like the case discussed here) which I would never have dreamed of. Clearly, accessibility is a big area and currently outside of my expertise, but it's a start. Or do you think it's a misleading one, perhaps? -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: Internet, David. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Are you honestly going to write these things in HTML, and for purposes other than the internet? When you say purposes other than the internet I'm guessing you mean display in a browser. But even with standard forms, let alone the ever-increasing use of AJAX-based interaction, displayed data may be occupying *one point* (not the end) of a multi-stage transaction -- hence my interest in maintaining data integrity. YMMV! -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] There really is not an accessibility validator in the same sense as there is an HTML or CSS validator. Accessibility is not black and white. I believe your original code is fine: h1 EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER /h1 a href=esim/btsa.htmlAbout the book/a a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a h1 MANCHESTER KISS /h1 a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.htmlWhat the critics say/a An assistive reader, in the vast majority of cases, is not going to machine-gun What the critics say. It's going to read the headings, then the content/links that come below. This might be a case of overanalyzing things a bit. The goal is not to satisfy a machine-based checker, but to provide a usable and accessible page. Thanks Al, I appreciate your input on this. Point is, I am new to giving accessibility some serious consideration (other than the obvious simple things) and my only teacher at this stage are the various checkers such as those which come in the FF dev toolbar. Only this last week I decided to put a few sites on the W3C site thing (http://www.w3csites.com/) and, of course, you have to specify certain ratings such as html validation as well as WAI/section 508 validation. I thought this was an interesting challenge/tutorial to see what was needed to get my sites to pass automatic WAI3 validation. It has been a very educational exercise and there has been a couple of things (like the case discussed here) which I would never have dreamed of. Clearly, accessibility is a big area and currently outside of my expertise, but it's a start. Or do you think it's a misleading one, perhaps? No. Just confusing :-) It's much more a subjective area than is CSS or general markup, for example. I would sign off on the heading/DD scenario you have, with the duplicated link text. But that's not to say you should. You might want to subscribe to the WebAim accessibility mailing list and see if you can get a clear concensus there. http://list.webaim.org/ Best of luck. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But clearly it's your client, and you have to work they way they want to work. this is not completely true. if you are an employee, then yes, but if it is a client, not always the case. they hired you to do a job and it is your responsibilty to do the job. sounds like to me they want to get involved on a nuts and bolts level and that could eventually cause problems. i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. this is what i use with my clients. once they argee to a layout, i start posting test pages for them to look at. most web design pros use paper and pencil, felt tip markers, crayons or whatever to sketch the design and hierarchy of the site to begin with. as the project develops and changes are made, then the draft can be revised. i don't think there is any simple tool for a client to use to do your job without you spending time and effort to teach them how to use it, that could cost you your job and what do you have? another non-compliant web site. is this what you want? maybe it would happen and maybe it wouldn't. if you are the pro, you will discourage them from getting into your arena of expertise. would they let you into theirs? i doubt it. i digress. make it easy on yourself and explain there is no simple tool for them to use without a large learning curve. did you learn html and css overnight? reassure them that you are there to make visual their ideas. that you will do to the best of your ability to provide them with a functional, w3c-recommendations-compliant web site that is true to their ideas. you encourage their input, but not their code. again, i find live test pages for the client to see works wonders. or you could continue to search for a simple to use, fairly lightweight and foolproof page layout tool when you should be talking with your client and making web pages. dwain From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I *was* the early poster... From: Dwain Alford Subject: Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights
On 3/12/07, Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Iam working with the interface/html team and maybe the team that build the aplications wouldn be so open to that changes, they say that is easiest and quicky putting the native elements of .net tham building, They're absolutely right, it is easier. That doesn't make it the right thing to do though. Now, I'm no server-side programmer, but I get to work with .net quite a lot. It's got a lot of features that make me want to stove someone's head in with a shovel (the enourmous viewstate, smartnav, one form per page, table controls that strip out summary attributes and th elements, etc), but when a programmer knows what they're doing, it's perfectly possible to get it to output nicer code. There's all sorts of tricks, such as rewriting the HTML by overriding the render method. By the sounds of it, your biggest hurdle is going to be the programmers. They need educating in the ways of the web. Once you've won them over, you're halfway there. It may be that you have to bite the bullet and make the best of what you've got though. -- Olly http://thinkdrastic.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
then i agree with your earlier post. i did not find it snarky. it was true what you said. dwain On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I **was** the early poster… -- *From:* Dwain Alford *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights
Gaspar wrote: Could someone give me some links or some stuff that someone without knowledge of ASP could help implementing some improves generate GOOD (X)HTML What version of .NET are you using? There is a big difference between 1.0 2.0. These following links apply to version 2.0 http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/exc57y7e.aspx http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa479043.aspx Change the conformance to strict in the web.config system.web xhtmlConformance mode=Strict / /system.web Due to adaptive rendering, if you want to validate using W3C validator add the following file (remove .txt) to a directory called App_Browsers http://idunno.org/misc/w3cvalidator.browser.txt Regards Jason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Many thanks to all for the suggestions, I'll check them out. Actually my preference would probably be the pen and paper approach as well, but the client insists that they want a *proper* tool for the job. Thanks again folks. Nick Dwain Alford wrote: then i agree with your earlier post. i did not find it snarky. it was true what you said. dwain On 3/12/07, *Chris Williams* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I **was** the early poster… *From:* Dwain Alford *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Nick Roper wrote: Many thanks to all for the suggestions, I'll check them out. Actually my preference would probably be the pen and paper approach as well, but the client insists that they want a *proper* tool for the job. In that case point 'em at iRise http://irise.com/products/diagram.php where they'll be able to purchase ~US$250K worth of proper if it makes 'em feel better. At the least it'll provide an interesting point for discussion of the cost-effectiveness of various solutions :-) (The pad and pencil was my first suggestion as well, followed by Denim, FWIW.) Good luck! -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
NR A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they NR want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they NR can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto NR a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality NR is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate NR things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a NR note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' At my company, the business groups often use Visio to produce the wireframes that the design groups then work toward. They also use Powerpoint to produce light specs. I can't say I am fond of these tools from a web development perspective, but they do allow those not familiar with the web to quickly produce wireframes that can be easily manipulated and toyed with. There is the added benefit that many business folks are already familiar with these programs. -- Sam mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights
Hi Gaspar, Looks like you guys are still using Visual Studio 2003, therefore .NET 1.1. You should consider moving up to VS 2005 and .NET 2.0 as the standards support is much better. Ben On 12/03/07, Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone, I always work with PHP, use it to output my (x)HTML in the way i want. Now a get to a agency that only work with ASP, i just can believe that there's no way to avoid runnet_server, IDs with 1000 characters, the some IDs on img, values of forms with 50lines height, and the form at the start that dont let me usa any Strict Language. Iam not good with ASP, many of the functions i dont understand, i do know that some of this points are easy to change but others like the bigs ID. Iam working with the interface/html team and maybe the team that build the aplications wouldn be so open to that changes, they say that is easiest and quicky putting the native elements of .net tham building, i believe that but and the others people that update or even the weight of pages. I just want to help change this, http://www.ispa.pt u could check the biggest value of a form that i see. Could someone give me some links or some stuff that someone without knowledge of ASP could help implementing some improves generate GOOD (X)HTML Many thanks, Gaspar I have already have found some: http://www.charon.co.uk/content.aspx?CategoryID=28ArticleID=53 http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/02/20/asp-net-ajax-and-sharepoint.aspx http://www.webstandards.org/2004/10/08/aspnet-standards-part-ii/ http://www.aspnetresources.com/articles/default.aspx http://www.aspnetresources.com/articles/HttpFilters.aspx -- Make it simple for the people -- http://www.artideias.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Ben Wong e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://blog.onehero.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I second the Axure recommendation. While it is nearly twice the cost of Visio, it is much easier to use, far more flexible, and actually designed for prototyping websites. Tim McLaughlin, Gail G wrote: Try Axure ( http://www.axure.com/) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Global and page-specific style sheets
Hello All - I've got a site that has a fairly MASSIVE style sheet. It's quite long as the design spec dictates a number of different pages be layed-out differently. Accordingly, its becoming quite tedious to find certain style blocks that need to be altered/tweaked as development continues. So, I'm beginning to think that the better way to accomplish this is to attach a global sheet in the head that would take care of all generic issues and page requirements. Then, in those pages that need special handling I would attached separate sheets that would address page-specific requirements. BTW: This site is a dynamic one (php) so these special-case pages are included depending on query-string variables/conditions. What do the good folks say here about this particular topic? Is this a normal (and preferred) workflow when one has to deal with long and unwieldy style sheets? Are there any best practice guidelines for such an issue? Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
At my company, the business groups often use Visio to produce the wireframes that the design groups then work toward. They also use Powerpoint to produce light specs. I can't say I am fond of these tools from a web development perspective, but they do allow those not familiar with the web to quickly produce wireframes that can be easily manipulated and toyed with. There is the added benefit that many business folks are already familiar with these programs. I've never seen any such tools used for this... maybe that happens only in the rarified atmopshere of large corporations or government departments... ...wirefames? ... only ever seen that in animation programs... ...maybe someone's been watching too many movies? ...doesn't sound at all like the real world Never even seen Visio.. and don't have a clue what it actually does. Just did a Google search on it and ended up at a page about Microsoft Office... I guess this is something new they just released . .. but I can't quickly figure out from that page what it actually does! ...but if there is any tool in existance that could help a non-technical person describe to me what they want more clearly I'd like to know about it! (but if the language it uses is business-speak then I'm still going to have trouble understanding it :-) It would be nice to have something better to go on than what we usually get in the real world eg a photoshop image and being told to do something like that (I'm a developer not a visual designer - I need some idea what they want it to do!) or (the most common scenario) ... a very vague verbal description from someone who isn't actually sure of what they want! .. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: ~~~SPAM~~~ Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I can assure you that wire frames for layouts are used in nearly every design studio that I've worked in. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2007 10:28 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: ~~~SPAM~~~ Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? At my company, the business groups often use Visio to produce the wireframes that the design groups then work toward. They also use Powerpoint to produce light specs. I can't say I am fond of these tools from a web development perspective, but they do allow those not familiar with the web to quickly produce wireframes that can be easily manipulated and toyed with. There is the added benefit that many business folks are already familiar with these programs. I've never seen any such tools used for this... maybe that happens only in the rarified atmopshere of large corporations or government departments... ...wirefames? ... only ever seen that in animation programs... ...maybe someone's been watching too many movies? ...doesn't sound at all like the real world Never even seen Visio.. and don't have a clue what it actually does. Just did a Google search on it and ended up at a page about Microsoft Office... I guess this is something new they just released . .. but I can't quickly figure out from that page what it actually does! ...but if there is any tool in existance that could help a non-technical person describe to me what they want more clearly I'd like to know about it! (but if the language it uses is business-speak then I'm still going to have trouble understanding it :-) It would be nice to have something better to go on than what we usually get in the real world eg a photoshop image and being told to do something like that (I'm a developer not a visual designer - I need some idea what they want it to do!) or (the most common scenario) ... a very vague verbal description from someone who isn't actually sure of what they want! .. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Global and page-specific style sheets
I don't have a problem with it, in fact the site I'm working on at the moment has 30 separate style sheets. However, remember that every style sheet will be a separate HTTP connection to retrieve it, so no matter how fast someone's connection is, they still have to make multiple HTTP requests to download all the documents, thus slowing down the site. Once the style sheets are cached then this delay will be reduced. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cole Kuryakin Sent: Tuesday, 13 March 2007 3:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Global and page-specific style sheets Hello All - I've got a site that has a fairly MASSIVE style sheet. It's quite long as the design spec dictates a number of different pages be layed-out differently. Accordingly, its becoming quite tedious to find certain style blocks that need to be altered/tweaked as development continues. So, I'm beginning to think that the better way to accomplish this is to attach a global sheet in the head that would take care of all generic issues and page requirements. Then, in those pages that need special handling I would attached separate sheets that would address page-specific requirements. BTW: This site is a dynamic one (php) so these special-case pages are included depending on query-string variables/conditions. What do the good folks say here about this particular topic? Is this a normal (and preferred) workflow when one has to deal with long and unwieldy style sheets? Are there any best practice guidelines for such an issue? Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
