RE: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Felix Miata wrote:
Your mission, should you choose to embrace it, is to convince the
client that maintaining an anachronistic practice is the wrong thing
to do, and that doing the right thing is always the right thing to
do. Maybe this will help whenever that discussion ensues.
http://www.lighthouse.org/accessibility/top-10/
Perhaps not the best example to provide for this thread...from their default
stylesheet:
body {font-size: 80%;}
Phil.
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RE: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Felix Miata wrote: On 2007/05/25 17:47 (GMT-0400) Philip Kiff apparently typed: Felix Miata wrote: What matters is: [...] 5-that any deviation a designer makes from 100% is arbitrary, as it's made from an entirely unknown starting point 100% of the visitor's choice equals respect for the visitor. I'm not really convinced that this is an issue of respect for the users of one's site. The reference that Kane provided to Owen Briggs's charts over at thenoodleincident.com I think demonstrates how the operating system manufacturers and browser companies are the ones who have been arbitrary about what 100% font size on the body element means. Here is a link to Owen Briggs's page discussing Sane CSS Typography: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html That's the 2nd time in this thread that poison-pill anachronism has been included. Its focus is on pixel perfection with tiny fonts that provides at most marginal utility when applied to the much larger pixel sizes necessary on modern high resolution/high PPI displays. It only applied when the very overwhelming majority of browsers had 16px defaults *and* most users were running sub-~72DPI displays. It misleads the uninitiated into thinking mousetype is an OK standard for web pages. I included the 2nd link to the Briggs article because I thought that perhaps the first link might not have been understood since it went directly to the a page of Briggs's images. I realize that you have spent considerable time studying this issue, but your explanation of Briggs's technique seems misleading to me. Under Briggs's technique, the body font-size is set to 76% and then the p font-size is set to 1.0 em. All other elements are then sized with ems. This should not produce tiny fonts on most people's systems: that is the whole purpose of his going through the exercise of producing all the screenshots using different browsers and operating systems. Although the screenshots date back to 2002, they do include IE 6, and I doubt there are differences in font-size rendering between IE 6 and 7 that would make Briggs technique suddenly unusable. Briggs's method will produce pages where fonts appear similar to what they appear like if you use 12pt text as your base font-size. This is the size that is still used today by millions of websites. No doubt some people find that size too small, but that is still the norm on the web these days. I don't quite understand the issue with the different dpi displays. Won't that have the same affect on all browsers, regardless of what method is used to size fonts -- unless you use pixel sizes, of course? I would also add that the reason I found the Briggs method attractive was that there is a certain elegance to the code involved, and some other designers may have been attracted for the same reason. Under Briggs, your base site font text is 1.0 em. Headings, lists, and other elements can all be set in relation to that 1.0em base. Whenever you are working on the CSS file, you can immediately grasp what the relative size of any element will be in comparison to your base body text (2.5em = two and a half times). Also, you can upsize your entire website simply by changing the body font-size from 76% to a larger number. There is no need to go through and change each and every percentage or em value of your other elements since the whole site should scale with the body font-size setting. As Kane pointed out, and as Owen Briggs's screenshot studies demonstrate, the use of 76% as the body font size is to create a more even base-line size across multiple browsers. This 76% figure is not therefore entirely arbitrary: The arbitrariness is an illusion induced by a mindset that all browsers should make every web look like a clone of that page in every other web browser. Modern browsers do a remarkable job of providing the similarity among themselves that they do, which is due in no small part to the standards bodies considerable efforts to create sensible and achievable standards. Different, within reason, should be a perfectly OK standard. I agree wholeheartedly. Different viewports and preferred sizes are perfectly OK. But if a designer finds a way to make sites appear almost identical across all major browsers and platforms at a screen resolution of 1024x768 on a 17 monitor with everything else set at default settings, and those sites are STILL scalable for other users, then shouldn't that be OK too? setting the body font size to 65%-76% or so is the size that 76% was a particular sweet spot for a particular period that has since passed. Any deviation from 76% did and does move the result out of that anachronistic sweet spot. designers have come up with over the years that allows them the most freedom to produce designs that appear similar across different browsers and different operating platforms. That particular basis doesn't make it any less arbitrary with
RE: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
I spent some time carousing through various sites and email lists and ended up trying to pull together some of the disparate techniques, arguments, and references about page font sizing into a single document. Because this message grew to an unwieldy size, I've divided it up into 5 sections: 1. Common Body Font Size Settings 2. Best Practices with Respect to Web Standards 3. User CSS Stylesheets 4. Sample Sites 5. Additional References -- 1. Common Body Font Size Settings -- Christian Montoya wrote: I hate to make a quick reply to a long post, but not all designers set body font size to 62.5% when creating websites... Out of curiosity, I did some browsing through the style sheets of some major websites and some other selected sites with an interest in design and standards, and it would appear that Christian is right here. I did not of course think that all designers set body font size to 62.5%, but I did think that I would find default body font-size settings of 60-75% being quite common, if not the norm. From what I can tell, however, body font-size settings are all over the map. Some of the biggest major sites, like Google, Flickr, YouTube, and Amazon use keywords (usually, font-size: x-small) and then scale up from there. Lots and lots of the other big sites also set the body font-size to a point size (12 and 13 seem to be the most common). Of those that are setting body font-sizes to a percentage value, the numbers range from the 62.5% that Paul mentions right up to 95%, and there does not seem to be any trend towards one number or another. Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Though I agree with the sentiment, the fact remains that the large majority of websites out there do size text below 100% (and yes, more often than not around the 75%ish mark). It appears that Patrick is right here: the number of sites that leave the body font-size element untouched (and so allow the browser defaults to stay at the usual defaults of medium, 16pt, and 100%) is a clear minority. I think that this statistical fact is an important piece of information for designers who are weighing the advantages and disadvantages of leaving the default body font sizes untouched in their stylesheets since it forms the real world usage background against which such decisions are made. For reference purposes, in section 4 below, I've provided links to a selection of significant sites that set body font-size to a percentage value. -- 2. Best Practices with Respect to Web Standards -- Sagnik Dey wrote: I'm developing a website that have some standards defined. The font size specified is 9pt. But due to accessibility standards I wanted to convert that in % or em. Can anybody tell what do i need to use to view the same size in different browsers? To respond to the original poster's question, I would say that there are at least three general techniques for converting page styles from point-based font sizes to a relative font size system: 1. Use Percentage on body font-size, then apply ems on the rest Owen Briggs The Noodle Incident - Sane CSS Sizes http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/ 2.. Use Keywords on body font-size element, then apply relative sizing on rest Dive Into Accessibility: 30 days to a more accessible web site Day 26: Using relative font sizes http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_26_using_relative_font_sizes.html 3. Use some combination of percentage and em sizing on all elements Note that if you avoid changing the default base font-size setting, then this method can be used to create a fully scalable/zoomable design while still addressing the objections of those who believe that the default text font size should be left unchanged. The one clear no-no, is that absolute font sizes, like points, should not be used. As the original poster points out, the use of point sizes can cause accessibility issues for some users. For more information about this, see: CSS Techniques for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 Units of Measure: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CSS-TECHS/#units There has been considerable discussion about the potential use of pixel sizes because pixels can be technically described as a relative font size. Unfortunately, Internet Explorer does not treat pixels as such, and using pixel sizes will break the View - Increase Text Size function on most versions of Internet Explorer, and so pixel sizing is not a viable option at present. The last major position, of course, is the one advocating against any changes to the default base font sizes for the body text. This is the 100% Easy-2-Read Standard advocated by Felix Miata: http://www.informationarchitects.jp/100e2r?v=4 From my browsing around, I learned that the debate over this position is a recurring discussion in various communities of coders and designers. I find some of the arguments in favour of Felix's position compelling. For instance, I had not fully examined the potential problems
[WSG] IE6 Problem (what a surprise)
Hi All, I site I've started at http://entyce.net.au/index1.html looks good in IE7, Firefox etc but am getting a problem with not having a white background in IE6. You'll see what I mean. I've used the Inman position clearing (along with some Andy Clark ideas from his book) to have the footer below the content (whichever content area is taller) but for some reason doesn't work for me in IE6 even though it is supposed to. Must have messed up another setting somewhere. Any ideas on how to best get out of this mess? Thanks Gav... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Problem (what a surprise)
Hi, I get a white background in my ie6 except a square in the middle... I do however notice that you use a png image, maybe that is the problem.. On 5/28/07, Gav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I site I've started at http://entyce.net.au/index1.html looks good in IE7, Firefox etc but am getting a problem with not having a white background in IE6. You'll see what I mean. I've used the Inman position clearing (along with some Andy Clark ideas from his book) to have the footer below the content (whichever content area is taller) but for some reason doesn't work for me in IE6 even though it is supposed to. Must have messed up another setting somewhere. Any ideas on how to best get out of this mess? Thanks Gav... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com http://www.germworks.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
I size fonts in percentage or em, on a base-font in percentage - 100% on html, usually. Here's an excellent article for reference: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_13.html (thanks, George). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
Katrina wrote:
I note that in Mike's example, he using
a br / in order to achieve a block-level
style visual. Surely that should be avoidable?
http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php
Certainly it would be avoidable using label { display : block; } but I
wanted the form to retain its current organization regardless of
CSS-controls.
Consequently, using only semantic code and coding to the absolute
minimum, a form with more than say 5 inputs becomes a dog's breakfast in
vanilla.
Wouldn't this then suggest that something isn't optimal in the default
user style sheet? And that's why this issue comes up again and again?
Kat
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RE: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Hi John and Mike, Just a question please? For simple forms, I really like the technique of separating Required from Optional fields. Instead of dividing the form into two fieldsets (Required/Optional) would it be semantically/accessibly correct to instead use a header element (for example h4) to separate/identify the two areas? This would keep the form contained within one fieldset, generic to the form's identity? For example: /// form action= method=post id=enquiryform fieldset legendEnquiry Form a rel=help class=cshelp href=ContextSensitiveHelpExample.htm img class=helpicon alt=help icon title=Open context-sensitive help width=16 height=16 src=images/help_small.gif //a/legend h4 Required Fields:/h4 div label for=subject Subject: Select a subject./label select name=subject id=subject tabindex=1 option value=Select/option option value=Option 1Option 1/option option value=Option 2Option 2/option option value=Option 3Option 3/option /select label for=name Name: Enter your full name./label input type=text name=name id=name tabindex=2 / label for=email Email: Enter your email address./label input type=text name=email id=email tabindex=3 / label for=message Message: Enter your message./label textarea name=message id=message rows=6 cols=30 tabindex=4/textarea /div h4 Optional Fields:/h4 div label for=updates Updates: Check this box to receive updates. /label input type=checkbox name=updates id=updates value=n tabindex=5 / /div label input class=submit type=submit value=Submit this Enquiry tabindex=6 //label /fieldset /form Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 4:25 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields John Faulds wrote: But sometimes at least one phone number might be required but others are optional (e.g. mobile, home, fax etc) - doesn't seem as logical to split your phone number fields up into different groupings. Great point, John. That's a conundrum for sure. And it will happen, the frequency thereof is probably in proportion to a form's complexity. In the example you illustrate it might be okay to stick to the required/optional thing, like so. Enter contact info in the form below. fieldset legend: required label/input: name label/input: email label/input: phone fieldset legend: optional label/input: fax label/inout: web But I can definitely see instances where that just woudn't do and the logical groupings wouldn't allow such an easy solution. That's when we'd have to revisit one of the other methods we've been comtemplating I suppose, treating each occurence independantly unless a one-size-fits-all solution is found. A likely candidate might be putting the word in the in the label. fieldset legend: foo stuff label/input: required foo one label/input: optional foo two label/input: required foo red label/input: optional foo blue :-) Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Thierry Koblentz wrote: This has been suggested already, It's hard to keep track, at times. but I don't think it's as clean as using legend. But legend often doesn't work. For example: Name: Address (line 1): Address (line 2): City: If we assume that both a name and a full address are required, as is often the case, it is also often the case that not all the lines available for the address are required. the above snippet would require multiple fieldsets. As a side note, I don't think we'd need to use a class if we consider that only the required fields would have a label containing a span. Including the class in the tag allows for making the required fields visually different (ie, red text). Also, it's very possible that other spans may be present (ie, error text, further instructions, etc.). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] need help with tabular interface
Hi, Ive done up a design that has a sideways tabular nav interface, and im not sure how to proceed with the markup. I am going to start with the sliding doors 2.0 article on ala. Does anyone have any advice or examples regarding a sideways tabular nav bar? heres the design: http://www.eaf.textdriven.com/design.html -thanks kevin mcmonagle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
There is one issue that will always cause conjecture and arguments with font
sizes and hasn't been raised. Australian, New Zealand, UK and European
default printed font size when word processing is 12 pt Times New Roman
whilst the US uses 10 pt Times New Roman, so they are used to smaller text
with more information crammed into each page.
This is a personal opinion of the font sizes displayed on a 19 1280 x 1024 @
96 PPI LCD monitor in relation to the default printed font size. My eyes are
approximately 65 cm from the screen and I do wear glasses for mild myopia
(short sightedness).
On Mon, 28 May 2007 04:43:23 pm Philip Kiff wrote:
4. Sample Sites
--
Here are a list of some example sites that apply a percentage to their body
font-size. These sites were selected because of their popularity, or their
interest in web accessibility and CSS design issues.
Digg
http://www.digg.com/
body {font: 83%/1.4}
Only just acceptable size due to other elements being scaled smaller.
Wired
http://www.wired.com/
body {font-size:62.5%;}
The body font is OK but the menus are way too small.
Salon
http://www.salon.com/
body {font-size: 70%;}
The body font was OK but other sections like menus and Current Opinion
sections are smaller.
Microsoft
http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/default.aspx
body {font-size: 70%; }
Too small like many US based web sites.
BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/d/
body {font-size: 62.5%}
Too smal but lots of white space around all text elements makes it easier to
read.
Web Standards Project
http://www.webstandards.org/
body {font: 72%/160%}
Again too small.
Clagnut
http://clagnut.com/
body {font-size:81.25%;}
htmlbody {font-size:13px;}
The main content was OK but I have a large monitor. 17 LCD at 1280 x 1024 was
still OK.
Jim Thatcher
http://jimthatcher.com/
body {font-size: 86%;}
Not too bad, but sideboxes had smaller text again.
Juicy Studio
http://juicystudio.com/
body {font-size: 95%;}
Easy to read even though only half my screen was used - large yellow slab down
the right half of the screen.
The Man in Blue
http://themaninblue.com/
body {font-size: 80%;}
Main content just OK but many sections are much smaller.
CSS Beauty
http://www.cssbeauty.com/
body {font: 76%}
Too small and light blue light green on white has contrast problems.
End of email.
Phil.
So, how do you solve this issue?
You can't - that's what makes us web designers. We all have preferences for
font sizes, colours, screen layout and more; then we have to deal with a
clients' preconceived ideas on what THEIR web site should look like.
However we need to be aware that many people using the Internet won't have 19
LCD, 21 LCD, 20 widescreens, 24 widescreens or 30 widescreens or dual
monitor setups. We need to make sure that our designs look OK on 17 CRT
monitors at 1024 x 768 and 800 x 600 (hopefully it will still look OK on a
15 CRT monitor too if it passes these tests).
Then we need to consider how much should a page zoom in before breaking. This
really means using proportional measurements and not pixels, mostly due to
IEs well documented problems, but also for containers.
The hard part is to not assume that bigger is always better. I have had a
vision impaired student who needed all text at 18 pt Times New Roman - any
larger and he could not see all of the individual letters, any smaller and it
got too hard to read.
Just my $0.02 worth - the most important point is that we are aware of the
issues, even if we can't agree on the perfect solution.
--
Regards,
Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: 0407 224 251
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[WSG] address semantics
Good day all. I want to put an address on a site, but I'm put off by the limitations of the address tag. (but attracted to the semantic value). My first thought was something like: dl class=address dd4 somestreet/dd ddAnytown/dd ddAnycounty/dd ddAnycountry/dd ddAN1 ONE/dd /dl dl class=address ddTel : 01234 567890/dd ddMobile: 0987 654321/dd ddemail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]/dd /dl Which I can style with CSS (and provide a 1em bottom padding so the two parts are kept visually separate). Is this 'wrong' ? I've googled, but found little of any real use. Thanks -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] address semantics
Hi, To cite W3C: Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The term is given by the DT element and is restricted to inline content. The description is given with a DD element that contains block-level content. I don't see any dt tags, so essentially this is just an unordered list and should be marked up as such. However, I'm not at all sure that an address is a list, but maybe that's just me. Stuart. On Mon, May 28, 2007 11:34 am, Designer wrote: Good day all. I want to put an address on a site, but I'm put off by the limitations of the address tag. (but attracted to the semantic value). My first thought was something like: dl class=address dd4 somestreet/dd ddAnytown/dd ddAnycounty/dd ddAnycountry/dd ddAN1 ONE/dd /dl dl class=address ddTel : 01234 567890/dd ddMobile: 0987 654321/dd ddemail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]/dd /dl Which I can style with CSS (and provide a 1em bottom padding so the two parts are kept visually separate). Is this 'wrong' ? I've googled, but found little of any real use. Thanks -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] address semantics
Designer wrote: My first thought was something like: dl class=address dd4 somestreet/dd ddAnytown/dd ddAnycounty/dd ddAnycountry/dd ddAN1 ONE/dd /dl dl class=address ddTel : 01234 567890/dd ddMobile: 0987 654321/dd ddemail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]/dd /dl ... Is this 'wrong' ? It's 'wrong' as it's meaningless to have a definition list without specifying the term (dt) that's being defined. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Frank Palinkas wrote: For simple forms, I really like the technique of separating Required from Optional fields. Instead of dividing the form into two fieldsets (Required/Optional) would it be semantically/accessibly correct to instead use a header element (for example h4) to separate/identify the two areas? Even though officially it is not, I sort of think of a legend as a heading -- a specialized, single purpose form-section heading, if you will. I like your idea, but those headings might be skipped in the user has a screen reader in form's mode ... I think (someone please confirm). If this is indeed a fact, some users would miss them which might confuse the form's use even more. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
kevin mcmonagle wrote: I am going to start with the sliding doors 2.0 article on ala. Does anyone have any advice or examples regarding a sideways tabular nav bar? You've got the right starting point - but be aware that (in my previous experience) IE/Win (of course...) doesn't honour the background image change on mouseover - unless the bg img is in the a. Hmm - occurs to me that the js fix for Exploder that's used for Suckerfish dropdowns [1] may be adaptable to your tabs - ? But then, of course, you've got to think about degradation when js is disabled... [1] www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] address semantics
P.S. If an address IS a list then perhaps it should be an ordered list (Since, usually, the order is semantically important). On Mon, May 28, 2007 12:10 pm, Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, To cite W3C: Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The term is given by the DT element and is restricted to inline content. The description is given with a DD element that contains block-level content. I don't see any dt tags, so essentially this is just an unordered list and should be marked up as such. However, I'm not at all sure that an address is a list, but maybe that's just me. Stuart. On Mon, May 28, 2007 11:34 am, Designer wrote: Good day all. I want to put an address on a site, but I'm put off by the limitations of the address tag. (but attracted to the semantic value). My first thought was something like: dl class=address dd4 somestreet/dd ddAnytown/dd ddAnycounty/dd ddAnycountry/dd ddAN1 ONE/dd /dl dl class=address ddTel : 01234 567890/dd ddMobile: 0987 654321/dd ddemail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]/dd /dl Which I can style with CSS (and provide a 1em bottom padding so the two parts are kept visually separate). Is this 'wrong' ? I've googled, but found little of any real use. Thanks -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
Thanks nick i might need to implement that js fix. The sliding doors method, or any that ive seen, only works if all the tabs are the same colour. I will have to change my design cause i dont have time to figure id out-in fact even if i did have the time that would be a tough nut to crack. Nick Gleitzman wrote: You've got the right starting point - but be aware that (in my previous experience) IE/Win (of course...) doesn't honour the background image change on mouseover - unless the bg img is in the a. Hmm - occurs to me that the js fix for Exploder that's used for Suckerfish dropdowns [1] may be adaptable to your tabs - ? But then, of course, you've got to think about degradation when js is disabled... [1] www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
kevin mcmonagle wrote: Thanks nick i might need to implement that js fix. The sliding doors method, or any that ive seen, only works if all the tabs are the same colour. Ah. Of course. I'm sure you could make your design work, but there would be a lot of classes and/or ids involved to target the specific tabs, and a whole lot of css as a consequence... I will have to change my design cause i dont have time to figure id out-in fact even if i did have the time that would be a tough nut to crack. Your call, of course - you know how much time you have. But better to find out now whether your design is viable, than many hours into wrestling with it! N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] address semantics
I am a great believer in the correct application of semantics myself. I would recommend either address tag set or maybe a micro format. Although the number of text analytical tools which recognise micro formats may be small, I am uncertain whether or not address is recognised by anything, other than user agents. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] address semantics
I want to put an address on a site, but I'm put off by the limitations of the address tag. (but attracted to the semantic value). microformats - hcard, adr http://microformats.org/wiki/adr http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] IE6 Problem (what a surprise)
Thanks, I've tried a few things. Got rid of all pngs Got rid of top navigation no difference (so put them back) I've changed the color of the #content div background-color so have narrowed this down to be the problem container. Will keep looking. Gav... From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jermayn Parker Sent: Monday, 28 May 2007 3:18 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Problem (what a surprise) Hi, I get a white background in my ie6 except a square in the middle... I do however notice that you use a png image, maybe that is the problem.. On 5/28/07, Gav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I site I've started at http://entyce.net.au/index1.html looks good in IE7, Firefox etc but am getting a problem with not having a white background in IE6. You'll see what I mean. I've used the Inman position clearing (along with some Andy Clark ideas from his book) to have the footer below the content (whichever content area is taller) but for some reason doesn't work for me in IE6 even though it is supposed to. Must have messed up another setting somewhere. Any ideas on how to best get out of this mess? Thanks Gav... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com http://www.germworks.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
On 2007/05/28 02:43 (GMT-0400) Philip Kiff apparently typed:
Here are a list of some example sites that apply a percentage to their body
font-size. These sites were selected because of their popularity, or their
interest in web accessibility and CSS design issues.
Here's a longer list (not updated for a while, so some sites may have had
facelifts). Mouseover produces a titletip describing font sizing method
and/or date I last visited on most: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/shame.html
Microsoft
http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/default.aspx
body {font-size: 70%; }
Probably many take their lead from this bad example. :-p If M$'s browser's
default is wrong, M$ should make it default to something else. Making body
text the same size as the system/browser UI text is wrong. The UI is little
bits of familiar territory. Most web pages are anything but.
BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/d/
body {font-size: 62.5%}
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ was recently overhauled. It used to be 13px. Here's a
look at before: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/bbcSS.html
Web Standards Project
http://www.webstandards.org/
body {font: 72%/160%}
:-( It's all too common that sites purporting to promote accessibility think
everyone's default is too big, and don't practice what they preach. One that
does the latter: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size
--
The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
ever brighter till the full light of day. Proverbs 4:18 NIV
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Re: [WSG] address semantics
On 28 May 2007, at 11:34:52, Designer wrote: I want to put an address on a site, but I'm put off by the limitations of the address tag. (but attracted to the semantic value). address doesn't have the semantic value you think it has. From HTML 4.01: The ADDRESS element may be used by authors to supply contact information for a document or a major part of a document such as a form. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-ADDRESS It's expressed even more succinctly in the table of elements: ADDRESS: information on author http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html So address should be used for providing contact information such as an email address or a link relating to the creator or owner of a document or part thereof, but not just for any old postal address that happens to appear on a web site. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
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Hello, Thank you for emailing me. I am currently out of the office at a conference and will return on Wednesday May 30th, 2007. Please note that emails sent to my mail box will not be actioned until this date. If you require urgent assistance or action, please contact me on 040 442 4399. Many thanks Teale. --- This e-mail is sent by Suncorp-Metway Limited ABN 66 010 831 722 or one of its related entities Suncorp. Suncorp may be contacted at Level 18, 36 Wickham Terrace, Brisbane or on 13 11 55 or at suncorp.com.au. The content of this e-mail is the view of the sender or stated author and does not necessarily reflect the view of Suncorp. The content, including attachments, is a confidential communication between Suncorp and the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this e-mail, including attachments, is unauthorised and expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please contact the sender immediately and delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. If this e-mail constitutes a commercial message of a type that you no longer wish to receive please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
On 2007/05/28 20:14 (GMT+1000) Steve Olive apparently typed: sizes and hasn't been raised. Australian, New Zealand, UK and European default printed font size when word processing is 12 pt Times New Roman whilst the US uses 10 pt Times New Roman, Where did this statistic come from? so they are used to smaller text with more information crammed into each page. This is a personal opinion of the font sizes displayed on a 19 1280 x 1024 @ 96 PPI LCD monitor in relation to the default printed font size. My eyes are approximately 65 cm from the screen and I do wear glasses for mild myopia (short sightedness). 96 would be your system setting. A 19 SXGA (1280x1024) display is 86, slightly lower than the modern average. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/dpi.html * http://blogs.msdn.com/fontblog/archive/2005/11/08/490490.aspx explains the doz 96 DPI genesis. So, how do you solve this issue? That most others do something wrong is not justification to not do the right thing yourself. Web pages text sizes have a much too wide range. Reduce the problem by always doing the right thing, and respecting the visitors' decisions what sizES are best. Don't make your site a #1 usability problem. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html Don't make visitors have to do anything more than read and select links to open. Zoom is a defense mechanism. Don't make them need to use it. You can't - that's what makes us web designers. We all have preferences for font sizes, colours, screen layout and more; then we have to deal with a clients' preconceived ideas on what THEIR web site should look like. When the client inquires about the starting point being wrong, teach him how to set his own so that it's just right for him, as everyone is presumed to have done. Do this with a small laptop to highlight the potential problem with doing otherwise than 100%. If he's an exclusively IE user, show him how to put the text sizer on the toolbar where M$ should have put it in the first place, or do it for him. Don't make visitors want to send you to Morons in Web Space http://www.cameratim.com/personal/soapbox/morons-in-webspace . However we need to be aware that many people using the Internet won't have 19 LCD, 21 LCD, 20 widescreens, 24 widescreens or 30 widescreens or dual Absolutely. monitor setups. We need to make sure that our designs look OK on 17 CRT monitors at 1024 x 768 and 800 x 600 (hopefully it will still look OK on a 15 CRT monitor too if it passes these tests). We also need to try to be realistic about user environments. DPI/PPI isn't what it was when the defaults-are-wrong mantra began many years ago. Before CSS, the standard was a mix of font size=1, font size=2, font size=-1 and font size=-2. In the beginning of that period, there were no LCDs. Few knew of the existence of larger than 17 displays, much less used or could afford them. Typical were 14 nominal/13 actual CRT's at 640x480 or 800x600. A little later in the presentational-markup-as-standard period the use of 15/14 and 17/16 as well as 1024x768 grew, along with 640x480 dying off and 1152x864 and 1280xXXX making their almost statistically significant appearances. This period with mostly 13-16 displays and 640x480-1024x768 resolutions saw a vast majority DPI range of roughly only 20, with an average probably somewhere in the mid-'70s. Today the average is higher, and the range is much higher. The former makes yesteryear's average 16px significantly bigger than today's, and while the latter makes it less likely to be close in physical size to the physical size on the designer's screen. Today, the bottom end of display size range is represented by the biggest selling market share - laptops. Laptops stop around 19, and start at a diminuitive 8 http://laptop.org/. Like with other LCDs, they should be run only at their native resolutions, which is how they are shipped. It means users are instructed they shouldn't lower resolution in order to make things bigger. Their DPIs range from about 85 (1024x768 on 15) to 150 (1024x640 on 8) to 119 (1920x1200 on 19) to 100 (1440x900 on 17; 1280x800 on 15), with other variations in between the low of 85 and the high of 150. Weighing the higher end stuff less heavily, a conservative estimate of the sales-weighted average is probably at least 100. From the old average of about 75, that's a 1/3 increase in DPI/PPI, which translates to a correspondingly lower pixel size, and correspondingly smaller default 12pt/16px font size (often 12pt/20px on mid- and high-end models). Plus there's that much wider range between low and high. With desktop system displays the sizes are bigger and the DPIs are lower, but they still represent a wider range between smallest and largest, and a higher average DPI, than yesteryear - somewhere around 90. As examples, the low price end is dominated by 1024x768 on 15 (85 DPI), 1280x1024 on 17 (96 DPI) and 1280x1024 on 19 (86 DPI). The middle has 1440x900 on 19 (89
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
On 2007/05/28 02:44 (GMT-0400) Philip Kiff apparently typed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Your mission, should you choose to embrace it, is to convince the
client that maintaining an anachronistic practice is the wrong thing
to do, and that doing the right thing is always the right thing to
do. Maybe this will help whenever that discussion ensues.
http://www.lighthouse.org/accessibility/top-10/
Perhaps not the best example to provide for this thread...from their default
stylesheet:
body {font-size: 80%;}
The list of others that don't practice what they preach is legion. They used
to do it, but recently redesigned, and probably didn't reconcile content to
presentation. I emailed them to point this out, but haven't yet received any
acknowledgement.
--
The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
ever brighter till the full light of day. Proverbs 4:18 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
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[WSG] Content Management issue ?
Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
Id recommend you look at: Drupal - http://www.drupal.org OpenCMS - http://www.opencms.org TradingEYE CMS - http://www.tradingeye.com There are a lot of other solutions out there but by far these three stick out. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Ross Sent: 28 May 2007 16:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Content Management issue ? Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
On 2007/05/28 02:43 (GMT-0400) Philip Kiff apparently typed:
1. Use Percentage on body font-size, then apply ems on the rest
Owen Briggs
The Noodle Incident - Sane CSS Sizes
http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/
This is the method of undersizing that is least visitor unfriendly. Gecko
browsers don't compound an enforced minimum font size as badly as on Clagnut
pages. More importantly, a simple user stylesheet with 'body {font-size:
medium !important}' fixes all or substantially all of most pages that
strictly use this method.
The last major position, of course, is the one advocating against any
changes to the default base font sizes for the body text. This is the 100%
Easy-2-Read Standard advocated by Felix Miata:
http://www.informationarchitects.jp/100e2r?v=4
There is at least one rather significant other proponent. From
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size
'Size: respect the users' preferences, avoid small size for content
* As a base font size for a document, 1em (or 100%) is equivalent
to setting the font size to the user's preference. Use this as a
basis for your font sizes, and avoid setting a smaller base font size
* Avoid sizes in em smaller than 1em for text body, except maybe for
copyright statements or other kinds of fine print.'
[relocated]
3. Use some combination of percentage and em sizing on all elements
Note that if you avoid changing the default base font-size setting, then
this method can be used to create a fully scalable/zoomable design while
still addressing the objections of those who believe that the default text
font size should be left unchanged.
...
it seems to me that the best practice in
this area is already covered by the WCAG, which simply asks that font sizes
be set using relative units so that users can increase them or zoom the page
size without causing the page layout to break.
The method and the WCAG dodge the basic issue of respect - users shouldn't
need to do anything more than arrive in order to use a page - plus a not
insignificant other issue. Those using the overwhelmingly most common web
browser have a narrow range of adjustment possible via their browser's
standard font sizer widget. It's common for people in trying to compensate
for initial x-small/small/65%-80% body text to run out of range with its
maximum 2 steps of possible increase, particularly when their preferred
starting point is already larger.
So, for example, I wonder if it would help if the user CSS files attempted
to set the default font size in two different ways:
body {font-size: 100% !important}
htmlbody {font-size: 16pt !important}
That ruleset in site styles would mean IE users get 12pt body text, and most
everybody else would get much larger 16pt body text. In a user stylesheet
context, the end result depends on which browser is given those rules.
In order to have the greatest possible chance of having the intended effect,
a user stylesheet needs something like the following:
body, p, td, li, dd {font-size: 100% !important}
with possible additions for textarea, input and a few other elements.
Overall though, simple user stylesheets have a limited intended impact. A
vast number of sites set a size on a multitude of unique classes and ids on
which a simple stylesheet can hope to have no impact. On many sites I have
to disable site styles entirely when zoom and minimum font size result in
hidden and/or overlapping text. On quite a number I frequent. I make
site-specific user stylesheets based upon the site styles to override each
of the class and id rules.
--
The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
ever brighter till the full light of day. Proverbs 4:18 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/
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RE: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields
Mike, you're correct, at least with respect to JAWS. In 'forms mode' it will only read links and form controls including their labels, legends and contents. Two other aspects of behaviour that are worth mentioning are: 1. In 'virtual cursor mode' i.e. when not in 'forms mode', JAWS does not read the legend when it reads each label in the fieldset. It only does this in 'forms mode' 2. Not all screen readers have a separate mode for interacting with forms. FireVox is one such product. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com Sent: 28 May 2007 12:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields Frank Palinkas wrote: For simple forms, I really like the technique of separating Required from Optional fields. Instead of dividing the form into two fieldsets (Required/Optional) would it be semantically/accessibly correct to instead use a header element (for example h4) to separate/identify the two areas? Even though officially it is not, I sort of think of a legend as a heading -- a specialized, single purpose form-section heading, if you will. I like your idea, but those headings might be skipped in the user has a screen reader in form's mode ... I think (someone please confirm). If this is indeed a fact, some users would miss them which might confuse the form's use even more. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] overflow: scroll-y;
Hi, Whats the method of setting the overflow of a div to scroll vertically only. I saw it here a long time ago but cant find anything online about it. I thought it was something like overflow: scroll-y; but i cant remember. -thanks kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
Thanks for your input. Regards, Kevin. On 5/28/07, Mark Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Id recommend you look at: Drupal - http://www.drupal.org OpenCMS - http://www.opencms.org TradingEYE CMS - http://www.tradingeye.com There are a lot of other solutions out there but by far these three stick out. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Ross Sent: 28 May 2007 16:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Content Management issue ? Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Felix Miata wrote:
BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/d/
body {font-size: 62.5%}
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ was recently overhauled. It used to be 13px.
Here's a look at before: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/bbcSS.html
Ooops. My mistake, your screenshots are right. The BBC news site uses the
same 13px setting that you based your screenshots on. Those are useful
screenshots for understanding the differences across screen resolutions and
screen sizes.
I guess I reviewed the BBC site too quickly and assumed incorrectly that the
BBC used a uniform set of styles across their site. It turns out that they
different settings for different sections of their site. The main front
page uses the body font-size 62.5% that I found, but the news site uses the
13px setting that you identify.
Compare:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
body {font-size: 62.5%}
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
body {font-size: 13px}
Phil.
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RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
Pleasure. Let us all know how you get on. Regards, Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Ross Sent: 28 May 2007 19:44 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ? Thanks for your input. Regards, Kevin. On 5/28/07, Mark Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Id recommend you look at: Drupal - http://www.drupal.org OpenCMS - http://www.opencms.org TradingEYE CMS - http://www.tradingeye.com There are a lot of other solutions out there but by far these three stick out. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Ross Sent: 28 May 2007 16:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Content Management issue ? Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] overflow: scroll-y;
Sorry folks - problem solved, i found the anwser in the list- archives overflow-y:scroll; kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hi, Whats the method of setting the overflow of a div to scroll vertically only. I saw it here a long time ago but cant find anything online about it. I thought it was something like overflow: scroll-y; but i cant remember. -thanks kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
On Mon May 28 11:44 , 'Kevin Ross' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent: Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... I like MODx = http://www.modxcms.com/ It is intuitive and flexible. It is an excellent mid-range general purpose CMS (and, it has blog features). Sean -- Sean Fraser http://www.elementary-group-standards.com ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
On 2007/05/28 02:44 (GMT-0400) Philip Kiff apparently typed: Felix Miata wrote: I included the 2nd link to the Briggs article because I thought that perhaps the first link might not have been understood since it went directly to the a page of Briggs's images. I realize that you have spent considerable time studying this issue, but your explanation of Briggs's technique seems misleading to me. Under Briggs's technique, the body font-size is set to 76% and then the p font-size is set to 1.0 em. All other elements are then sized with ems. This should not produce tiny fonts on most people's systems: that is the whole purpose of his going through the exercise of producing all the screenshots using different browsers and operating systems. Although the screenshots date back to 2002, they do include IE 6, and I doubt there are differences in font-size rendering between IE 6 and 7 that would make Briggs technique suddenly unusable. Context was largely my point. Start by catching up with other bits that Briggs has to say on http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/incremental_differences.html and http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/index.html and note his rather strong bias against the defaults, and the date of the original writings: most browsers default to a text size that I have to back up to the kitchen to read the browser defaults are huge, like 200% of program toolbar font. Absurd. The windoz UI default is 8pt, while its browser default is 12pt (the Linux desktops I've used seem to have standardized on 10pt as the UI default). Even though it appears he's exaggerating, as 12 is 150% of 8 and not 200%, those numbers are of nominal sizes, not real sizes. Size is a function of area, which is determined by both height and width. At 96 DPI an average 12pt letter lives in a box of about 128px (8px wide, 16px tall), while an 8pt letter in about 72px (6px wide, 12px tall), or 77.7% bigger in real size for IE content default compared to windoz UI. So he's exaggerating only somewhat for the difference, but he's way off base for his characterization, even back in the period. The UI doesn't need to be and shouldn't be as large as the content. Content is unfamiliar territory, and generally there's a lot more of it, and it's commanding a lot more effort and attention. UI is mostly just little bits grabbed here and there. They're presumably familiar, and command little time. Your back won't suffer the same pain of leaning forward to see UI that it would leaning forward through whole web sites. The eyes can usually adjust readily to the difference between UI and content. Smaller they should be, in order not to distract from content, and to distinguish from content. When you focus on the results represented by his screenshots, the validity of the samples are primarily valid for the context of the pre- and early-CSS period, when display PPI didn't vary a whole lot from one local environment to the next, when sub-16px sizes were presumably still reasonably legible for most users, and when 16px was indeed too big for the average user. When deviating merely 1% from his recommended 76%, the consistency at sub-100% that was his purpose breaks down. Today we have considerably wider PPI variation and significantly smaller average size of a pixel. He effort has traveled considerably down the path between highly practical value to wholly academic relic. The major point that remains valid is that setting a size in body cascades down into everything else, but that's the inherent nature of CSS. Briggs's method will produce pages where fonts appear similar to what they appear like if you use 12pt text as your base font-size. Surely you meant 12px. This is the size that is still used today by millions of websites. No doubt some people find that size too small, but that is still the norm on the web these days. I Obviously you meant 12px. If the majority of sites were using 12pt we wouldn't be having this discussion, as 12pt is what most ordinary users prefer. http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/2S/font.htm don't quite understand the issue with the different dpi displays. Won't that have the same affect on all browsers, regardless of what method is used to size fonts -- unless you use pixel sizes, of course? The method of sizing via body remains valid. The presumption that the defaults are too big no longer fits. I agree wholeheartedly. Different viewports and preferred sizes are perfectly OK. But if a designer finds a way to make sites appear almost identical across all major browsers and platforms at a screen resolution of 1024x768 on a 17 monitor with everything else set at default settings, and those sites are STILL scalable for other users, then shouldn't that be OK too? When done right, there's no need to depend on a particular size as a starting point, and thus no reason to shift overall text size up or down by any perceptible
Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
I was in your situation about six months ago and someone on the list recommended textpattern. The textpattern text editor textdrive is meant to be easy to learn-clients can do simple formatting to their content updates easily. I was able to train a client to use it in one sitting. Still if i had a client that is extremely illiterate i wouldn't bother building a site with a cms. -best kevin Kevin Ross wrote: Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2007/05/28 02:43 (GMT-0400) Philip Kiff apparently typed:
1. Use Percentage on body font-size, then apply ems on the rest
Owen Briggs
The Noodle Incident - Sane CSS Sizes
http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/
This is the method of undersizing that is least visitor unfriendly.
Gecko browsers don't compound an enforced minimum font size as badly
as on Clagnut pages. More importantly, a simple user stylesheet with
'body {font-size: medium !important}' fixes all or substantially all
of most pages that strictly use this method.
The last major position, of course, is the one advocating against any
changes to the default base font sizes for the body text. This is
the 100% Easy-2-Read Standard advocated by Felix Miata:
http://www.informationarchitects.jp/100e2r?v=4
There is at least one rather significant other proponent. From
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size
'Size: respect the users' preferences, avoid small size for content
* As a base font size for a document, 1em (or 100%) is equivalent
to setting the font size to the user's preference. Use this as a
basis for your font sizes, and avoid setting a smaller base font
size * Avoid sizes in em smaller than 1em for text body, except
maybe for copyright statements or other kinds of fine print.'
I was not aware of this document. Thanks for highlighting it. I note that
it is merely a tips document and therefore should not be seen as anything
else than informative bits of wisdom, and especially, they are not normative
W3C technical specifications. But having noted that, I think you are right
that it suggests that the W3C collective wisdom on this topic is to
recommend leaving the base font sizes unchanged, especially given that their
own site follows that policy as well.
I guess that means that now I'm not sure if I agree with the W3C either (!).
I know some people are quite comfortable occupying that position, but for
me, I'm not so sure... G...
Phil.
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[WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Hi everyone. I am currently looking for a cost-effective (preferably opensource) solution to run our companies UK based web site. I have looked at TradingEye PHP Store and have spoke in depth with Wladimir however some features seem restrictive for our needs. If time was not an issue I would create a system from my own experiences however time is a luxury I do not have at the moment and our system needs an overhaul from an administrative point of view. I only took on the development role in May 2006 and I am slowly getting things in order but still a long way to go. Needless to say I am wondering if anyone can offer any advice on a solution for Content Management and E-commerce. Naturally something which adheres to standards compliant design principals. Look forward to feedback. Thanks, Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Drupal. http://drupal.org Mark Hedley wrote: Hi everyone. I am currently looking for a cost-effective (preferably opensource) solution to run our companies UK based web site. I have looked at TradingEye PHP Store and have spoke in depth with Wladimir however some features seem restrictive for our needs. If time was not an issue I would create a system from my own experiences however time is a luxury I do not have at the moment and our system needs an overhaul from an administrative point of view. I only took on the development role in May 2006 and I am slowly getting things in order but still a long way to go. Needless to say I am wondering if anyone can offer any advice on a solution for Content Management and E-commerce. Naturally something which adheres to standards compliant design principals. Look forward to feedback. Thanks, Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane == Egressive Ltd == [EMAIL PROTECTED] == +64 21 229 8147 +64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = no software patents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Hi all, I just have to pitch in here. My dealings with Drupal have been less than wonderful. I find it vague and confusing (kind of like it's trying to be everything to everyone) and when I tried to create a new template I found all sorts of crappy table-based code needed, as well as the need to create bits of files all over the place to get one new template working. In my experience, something like Expression Engine (http://www.expressionengine.com) or wordpress (http://www.wordpress.org) would be a far better bet for a simple CMS and a heck of a lot easier for a non-technical editor to use. Just my 2c anyway Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Thanks for that Paul, I was looking at Drupal at one stage however the lack of Protx 3D Secure (Verified by Visa / MasterCard Secure Code) Module put me off considerably. What about the E-commerce side of things though? Anyone else got anything to bring to the table on this? Feedback and advice again appreciated. Oh, another thing, Smarty template engine is out of the question! I refuse to use it. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 28 May 2007 22:14 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions Hi all, I just have to pitch in here. My dealings with Drupal have been less than wonderful. I find it vague and confusing (kind of like it's trying to be everything to everyone) and when I tried to create a new template I found all sorts of crappy table-based code needed, as well as the need to create bits of files all over the place to get one new template working. In my experience, something like Expression Engine (http://www.expressionengine.com) or wordpress (http://www.wordpress.org) would be a far better bet for a simple CMS and a heck of a lot easier for a non-technical editor to use. Just my 2c anyway Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Thanks for the suggestion Dave. Drupal was something I was looking at however it lacks the required Payment module we would need. Namely Protx VSP Direct with the 3D Secure protocol. Any other recommendations? Also thanks for the response, its much appreciated. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Lane Sent: 28 May 2007 21:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions Drupal. http://drupal.org Mark Hedley wrote: Hi everyone. I am currently looking for a cost-effective (preferably opensource) solution to run our companies UK based web site. I have looked at TradingEye PHP Store and have spoke in depth with Wladimir however some features seem restrictive for our needs. If time was not an issue I would create a system from my own experiences however time is a luxury I do not have at the moment and our system needs an overhaul from an administrative point of view. I only took on the development role in May 2006 and I am slowly getting things in order but still a long way to go. Needless to say I am wondering if anyone can offer any advice on a solution for Content Management and E-commerce. Naturally something which adheres to standards compliant design principals. Look forward to feedback. Thanks, Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane == Egressive Ltd == [EMAIL PROTECTED] == +64 21 229 8147 +64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = no software patents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Mark Hedley wrote: Feedback and advice again appreciated. Expression Engine is good and reliable... but you got to pay approx 200$ for commercial license. Also, currently EE does not have a full-featured E-commerce module (just basic paypal.) The current approach for most EE users is to use something like Cubecart or Zencart. http://www.cubecart.com/site/home/ http://zen-cart.com/ Note: I hear there is a full-featured module being developed for EE... I hope it comes-out soon... Keep a look-out here: http://solspace.com/ Additionally, I find that EE makes me pull my hair out trying to make sure I have all my settings perfected... I think EE is great for folks that are not perfectionistic (maybe it is just me) -- I personally spend way too much time playing with EE settings -- For a couple pro-bono projects, I never finished (or switched to an alternative solution) partly due to all the loose ends that need to be tied in order to get EE fully optimized. Additionally, code redundancy is also a problem when it comes to templates (though, some would say this is a feature of EE)... Long story short, overall optimization can be attained, but it takes time, especially if you are new to the templating syntax and EE workflow. Do not get me wrong, EE is really nice though -- I would say there are many more good aspects than bad (great community support via forums.) Also, due to the price, EE is always growing and getting better. I love Textpattern, but it is lacking in the E-commerce department. Prob best to get a third party app (i.e. Cubecart/Zencart) for e-commerce stuff if using TXP. Drupal looks a bit too involved -- I enjoy coding, but it looks like if you got a quick deadline, and are new to Drupal, then you are SOL for quick-turnaround. I have heard good and bad things about Joomla (I personally never got past the installation.) Also, I rarely need a CMS that has everything under the sun (this is main reason why I love TXP.) I have heard Website Baker is good, though never used it... not sure about e-commerce, but maybe worth a gander: http://start.websitebaker.org/en/introduction.html You might want to look at these sites: http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ http://start.websitebaker.org/en/introduction.html Also, the WSG has a WSG-CMS listserv... Might want to ask questions there. Just my .0002cents... Good luck! Cheers, M -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Thanks Micky, Are you aware of any E-commerce solutions + CMS with support for the 3D Secure Protx VSP Direct? Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Micky Hulse Sent: 28 May 2007 22:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions Mark Hedley wrote: Feedback and advice again appreciated. Expression Engine is good and reliable... but you got to pay approx 200$ for commercial license. Also, currently EE does not have a full-featured E-commerce module (just basic paypal.) The current approach for most EE users is to use something like Cubecart or Zencart. http://www.cubecart.com/site/home/ http://zen-cart.com/ Note: I hear there is a full-featured module being developed for EE... I hope it comes-out soon... Keep a look-out here: http://solspace.com/ Additionally, I find that EE makes me pull my hair out trying to make sure I have all my settings perfected... I think EE is great for folks that are not perfectionistic (maybe it is just me) -- I personally spend way too much time playing with EE settings -- For a couple pro-bono projects, I never finished (or switched to an alternative solution) partly due to all the loose ends that need to be tied in order to get EE fully optimized. Additionally, code redundancy is also a problem when it comes to templates (though, some would say this is a feature of EE)... Long story short, overall optimization can be attained, but it takes time, especially if you are new to the templating syntax and EE workflow. Do not get me wrong, EE is really nice though -- I would say there are many more good aspects than bad (great community support via forums.) Also, due to the price, EE is always growing and getting better. I love Textpattern, but it is lacking in the E-commerce department. Prob best to get a third party app (i.e. Cubecart/Zencart) for e-commerce stuff if using TXP. Drupal looks a bit too involved -- I enjoy coding, but it looks like if you got a quick deadline, and are new to Drupal, then you are SOL for quick-turnaround. I have heard good and bad things about Joomla (I personally never got past the installation.) Also, I rarely need a CMS that has everything under the sun (this is main reason why I love TXP.) I have heard Website Baker is good, though never used it... not sure about e-commerce, but maybe worth a gander: http://start.websitebaker.org/en/introduction.html You might want to look at these sites: http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ http://start.websitebaker.org/en/introduction.html Also, the WSG has a WSG-CMS listserv... Might want to ask questions there. Just my .0002cents... Good luck! Cheers, M -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Philip Kiff wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/d/
body {font-size: 62.5%}
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ was recently overhauled. It used to be 13px.
Here's a look at before: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/bbcSS.html
Compare:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
body {font-size: 62.5%}
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
body {font-size: 13px}
Lets add to the confusion, BBC publishes in multiple languages. If we
take a look at the body text of news stories in some of the other
languages covered on the BBC site:
Tamil12px
Pashto 15px
Hindi, Nepali13px/17px
Bengali 16px
Uzbek,Vietnamese 13px
Simplified Chinese 13px
Persian 15px/19px
Arabic 16px/19px
--
Andrew Cunningham
Research and Development Coordinator
Vicnet, Public Libraries and Communications
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000
Australia
andrewc+AEA-vicnet.net.au
Ph. 3-8664-7430
Fax: 3-9639-2175
http://www.openroad.net.au/
http://www.libraries.vic.gov.au/
http://www.vicnet.net.au/
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Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
I've been using WordPress for two years and love it. I find it easy to teach clients how to use it. I've recently installed Drupal at the request of a client and find the learning curve very steep... I agree that it is vague and confusing. I haven't even had the chance to dive into the template coding yet...I'm still trying to figure out how to get around it from within. I've seen several sites with Zen Cart and love the presentation, but haven't had time to explore it from the inside...defintley on my list of things to explore. Paul Bennett wrote: Hi all, I just have to pitch in here. My dealings with Drupal have been less than wonderful. I find it vague and confusing (kind of like it's trying to be everything to everyone) and when I tried to create a new template I found all sorts of crappy table-based code needed, as well as the need to create bits of files all over the place to get one new template working. In my experience, something like Expression Engine (http://www.expressionengine.com) or wordpress (http://www.wordpress.org) would be a far better bet for a simple CMS and a heck of a lot easier for a non-technical editor to use. Just my 2c anyway Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- /Expose my inner self? It rises from the dust into pale moonlight... My ass shows. You may kiss it./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
On Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman kevin mcmonagle wrote: I am going to start with the sliding doors 2.0 article on ala. Does anyone have any advice or examples regarding a sideways tabular nav bar? You've got the right starting point - but be aware that (in my previous experience) IE/Win (of course...) doesn't honour the background image change on mouseover - unless the bg img is in the a. You're right, one would need to pollute the markup: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/scalable.asp --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Be interested to see if anyone can recommend a robust solution geared for UK E-commerce using Protx VSP Direct + 3D Secure. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raine Sent: 28 May 2007 23:21 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions I've been using WordPress for two years and love it. I find it easy to teach clients how to use it. I've recently installed Drupal at the request of a client and find the learning curve very steep... I agree that it is vague and confusing. I haven't even had the chance to dive into the template coding yet...I'm still trying to figure out how to get around it from within. I've seen several sites with Zen Cart and love the presentation, but haven't had time to explore it from the inside...defintley on my list of things to explore. Paul Bennett wrote: Hi all, I just have to pitch in here. My dealings with Drupal have been less than wonderful. I find it vague and confusing (kind of like it's trying to be everything to everyone) and when I tried to create a new template I found all sorts of crappy table-based code needed, as well as the need to create bits of files all over the place to get one new template working. In my experience, something like Expression Engine (http://www.expressionengine.com) or wordpress (http://www.wordpress.org) would be a far better bet for a simple CMS and a heck of a lot easier for a non-technical editor to use. Just my 2c anyway Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Expose my inner self? It rises from the dust into pale moonlight... My ass shows. You may kiss it. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
I'm surprised no one has really commented on Joomla! I've read the feedback and reviews on Joomla and not only is it free and open source CMS, you're able to customise and add extensions as appropriate for your client. Check out the demo at: http://demo.joomla.org/ Joomla! 1.5 is suppose to be out soon but the beta version is available to play around with. This company (http://www.compassdesigns.net/) solely provides clients with Joomla! CMS sites. Kevin Ross wrote: Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Mark Hedley wrote: Are you aware of any E-commerce solutions + CMS with support for the 3D Secure Protx VSP Direct? Sorry, not sure. You might find someone who *is aware* on over at the WSG-CMS list... I signed up for the CMS list durning my sign-up for this list... but I am not aware of a web page that talks about the CMS list and/or what specific steps to take in order to become a WSG-CMS list member... I think you just have to opt-in when signing-up for this (WSG) list. Good luck. Thanks, Micky -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Additionally, code redundancy is also a problem when it comes to templates (though, some would say this is a feature of EE) I've not found that so far. Once you get your head around the way you can embed templates in other templates, it's just like using includes. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
kevin mcmonagle schreef:
The sliding doors method, or any that ive seen, only works if all the
tabs are the same colour.
I don't see why. If every tab has its own id you can define different
background images for each tab.
Nick Gleitzman wrote:
You've got the right starting point - but be aware that (in my
previous experience) IE/Win (of course...) doesn't honour the
background image change on mouseover - unless the bg img is in the a.
If you want to sticj to CSS only you may use a span inside the a and
then, instead of using li and a for the sliding doors, use a and
span. As the span is inside the a you can use a:hover span { ... }
Hmm - occurs to me that the js fix for Exploder that's used for
Suckerfish dropdowns [1] may be adaptable to your tabs - ? But then,
of course, you've got to think about degradation when js is disabled...
As changing colors on hovering is more about usability than accessibilty
I wonder whether it's a problem when it does not occur. Perhaps you can
heva JavaScript set a certain className. Without this className the
textdecoration or color changes on hover, otherwise the background images.
cheers,
Sander
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RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Cheers again Micky, Will keep the list updated with my findings. Right now the two possible solutions are: Clickcartpro and TradingEye Shop v5. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Micky Hulse Sent: 28 May 2007 23:37 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions Mark Hedley wrote: Are you aware of any E-commerce solutions + CMS with support for the 3D Secure Protx VSP Direct? Sorry, not sure. You might find someone who *is aware* on over at the WSG-CMS list... I signed up for the CMS list durning my sign-up for this list... but I am not aware of a web page that talks about the CMS list and/or what specific steps to take in order to become a WSG-CMS list member... I think you just have to opt-in when signing-up for this (WSG) list. Good luck. Thanks, Micky -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
EE looks good but lacks the E-commerce functionality we would need for our system. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: 28 May 2007 23:40 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions Additionally, code redundancy is also a problem when it comes to templates (though, some would say this is a feature of EE) I've not found that so far. Once you get your head around the way you can embed templates in other templates, it's just like using includes. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
I have head very good things about silver stripe http://www.silverstripe.com/home/ This is an open source cms writen in php which you are able to cusomise and manipulate. Simple. Intuitive and user-friendly Flexible. MVC framework Scalable. From 1 page to a million Fast. As responsive as a desktop app thanks to native Ajax support Standards Compliant. Fully XHTML compliant Modular. Easy to extend Template Freedom. No restrictions on the look and feel of your site Open source. It's free in every sense of the word! (BSD) Cross platform (Windows/Linux/Mac) and easy to install (PHP based Robin I'm surprised no one has really commented on Joomla! I've read the feedback and reviews on Joomla and not only is it free and open source CMS, you're able to customise and add extensions as appropriate for your client. Check out the demo at: http://demo.joomla.org/ Joomla! 1.5 is suppose to be out soon but the beta version is available to play around with. This company (http://www.compassdesigns.net/) solely provides clients with Joomla! CMS sites. Kevin Ross wrote: Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
Bad thing is if you don't have access to PHP5 on all client systems with silverstripe you are either left out or forced to upgrade. Looks like a nice CMS never the less. Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Gorry Sent: 28 May 2007 23:50 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ? I have head very good things about silver stripe http://www.silverstripe.com/home/ This is an open source cms writen in php which you are able to cusomise and manipulate. Simple. Intuitive and user-friendly Flexible. MVC framework Scalable. From 1 page to a million Fast. As responsive as a desktop app thanks to native Ajax support Standards Compliant. Fully XHTML compliant Modular. Easy to extend Template Freedom. No restrictions on the look and feel of your site Open source. It's free in every sense of the word! (BSD) Cross platform (Windows/Linux/Mac) and easy to install (PHP based Robin I'm surprised no one has really commented on Joomla! I've read the feedback and reviews on Joomla and not only is it free and open source CMS, you're able to customise and add extensions as appropriate for your client. Check out the demo at: http://demo.joomla.org/ Joomla! 1.5 is suppose to be out soon but the beta version is available to play around with. This company (http://www.compassdesigns.net/) solely provides clients with Joomla! CMS sites. Kevin Ross wrote: Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
I liked what I saw of Silverstripe but unfortunately it has a certain PHP memory limit requirement which my web host wasn't willing to change so it ruled it out for me unless I wanted to change hosts. On Tue, 29 May 2007 08:50:15 +1000, Robin Gorry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have head very good things about silver stripe http://www.silverstripe.com/home/ This is an open source cms writen in php which you are able to cusomise and manipulate. Simple. Intuitive and user-friendly Flexible. MVC framework Scalable. From 1 page to a million Fast. As responsive as a desktop app thanks to native Ajax support Standards Compliant. Fully XHTML compliant Modular. Easy to extend Template Freedom. No restrictions on the look and feel of your site Open source. It's free in every sense of the word! (BSD) Cross platform (Windows/Linux/Mac) and easy to install (PHP based Robin I'm surprised no one has really commented on Joomla! I've read the feedback and reviews on Joomla and not only is it free and open source CMS, you're able to customise and add extensions as appropriate for your client. Check out the demo at: http://demo.joomla.org/ Joomla! 1.5 is suppose to be out soon but the beta version is available to play around with. This company (http://www.compassdesigns.net/) solely provides clients with Joomla! CMS sites. Kevin Ross wrote: Hi: I have a question which has surfaced due to an upcoming requirement. I have built a web site for a client who now wants to be able to manage the site on her own. She is computer literate, but not a web designer, by any means. I am new to the idea of Content Management systems and am really trying to wrap my brain around what they really do and how to set one up. I guess I am wondering how other designers handle this type of issue? How do you setup clients to manage their own site so they are not having to take a detailed course in Web Design. I hope my concern is understood, as I have been thinking about this issue for a while and have investigated certain software... Joomla, Wordpress... Can anyone lend a hand? Thanks very much... Regards, Kevin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
Thierry Koblentz schreef: You're right, one would need to pollute the markup: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/scalable.asp 2 spans inside the link? I must admit that I haven't really read the whole article, but I can't see why you'd have to use 2, each with their own className. Why not use the a for one of the background images instead of span class=left? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
John Faulds wrote: Additionally, code redundancy is also a problem when it comes to templates (though, some would say this is a feature of EE) I've not found that so far. Once you get your head around the way you can embed templates in other templates, it's just like using includes. [OT] Kinda, but not really. With normal PHP includes, one does not have to pass/set variables... I find that clunky -- also, working with URL segments is not the most easy thing in the world. Overall, I think EE is great, but the templating could use mucho improvements. But, I am a picky perfectionist... Most normal/more experienced folks (like yourself) probably do not mind most of the things I find annoying. For the sake of not going further OT, I will stop my complaining. :D [/OT] Cheers, Micky -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
I dont know, im stuck with it.
Heres my progress
http://eaf.textdriven.com/
Sander Aarts wrote:
kevin mcmonagle schreef:
The sliding doors method, or any that ive seen, only works if all the
tabs are the same colour.
I don't see why. If every tab has its own id you can define different
background images for each tab.
Nick Gleitzman wrote:
You've got the right starting point - but be aware that (in my
previous experience) IE/Win (of course...) doesn't honour the
background image change on mouseover - unless the bg img is in the a.
If you want to sticj to CSS only you may use a span inside the a
and then, instead of using li and a for the sliding doors, use a
and span. As the span is inside the a you can use a:hover span {
... }
Hmm - occurs to me that the js fix for Exploder that's used for
Suckerfish dropdowns [1] may be adaptable to your tabs - ? But then,
of course, you've got to think about degradation when js is disabled...
As changing colors on hovering is more about usability than
accessibilty I wonder whether it's a problem when it does not occur.
Perhaps you can heva JavaScript set a certain className. Without this
className the textdecoration or color changes on hover, otherwise the
background images.
cheers,
Sander
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RE: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
On Behalf Of Sander Aarts 2 spans inside the link? I must admit that I haven't really read the whole article, but I can't see why you'd have to use 2, each with their own className. Why not use the a for one of the background images instead of span class=left? So we can use transparent images. If we go with a single SPAN, then the background image used for the A would show *behind* the image used for the SPAN (through the transparent area of the image). I know it's uggly, but this article is 4 or 5 years old :) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
On Tue, 29 May 2007 10:50:15 +1200 Robin Gorry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have head very good things about silver stripe http://www.silverstripe.com/home/ This is an open source cms writen in php which you are able to cusomise and manipulate. Simple. Intuitive and user-friendly Flexible. MVC framework Scalable. From 1 page to a million Fast. As responsive as a desktop app thanks to native Ajax support Standards Compliant. Fully XHTML compliant Modular. Easy to extend Template Freedom. No restrictions on the look and feel of your site Open source. It's free in every sense of the word! (BSD) Cross platform (Windows/Linux/Mac) and easy to install (PHP based Silverstripe is fantastic. It's relatively new in relation to other CMS's, but it sure has a lot of potential. Primarily, it's developed by a NZ company and was originally a closed source, proprietary CMS. It's extremely flexible for developers/designers to create custom templates/sites. The community is growing larger, and the SS staff are quite helpful. They provide a forum and IRC channel for support and discussion. More importantly, it's easy for clients/content writers to create pages, the interface is quite intuitive. There are a few quirks here and there, no official blog/news module exists, but there is a guide/tutorial for how to create one. The next release (v2.1) will feature a tonne of improvements and those extra modules too. It's exciting times ahead for Silverstripe, and I certainly encourage you all to keep your eye on it. I'm actually developing a web site using Silverstripe at the moment, first time :) Cheers, Tate Johnson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ?
Keeping an eye on it myself. Just a shame their doesn't seem to be support for non-native Commerce yet. Hopefully development will grow for UK and other territories soon : ) Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tate Johnson Sent: 29 May 2007 01:47 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ? On Tue, 29 May 2007 10:50:15 +1200 Robin Gorry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have head very good things about silver stripe http://www.silverstripe.com/home/ This is an open source cms writen in php which you are able to cusomise and manipulate. Simple. Intuitive and user-friendly Flexible. MVC framework Scalable. From 1 page to a million Fast. As responsive as a desktop app thanks to native Ajax support Standards Compliant. Fully XHTML compliant Modular. Easy to extend Template Freedom. No restrictions on the look and feel of your site Open source. It's free in every sense of the word! (BSD) Cross platform (Windows/Linux/Mac) and easy to install (PHP based Silverstripe is fantastic. It's relatively new in relation to other CMS's, but it sure has a lot of potential. Primarily, it's developed by a NZ company and was originally a closed source, proprietary CMS. It's extremely flexible for developers/designers to create custom templates/sites. The community is growing larger, and the SS staff are quite helpful. They provide a forum and IRC channel for support and discussion. More importantly, it's easy for clients/content writers to create pages, the interface is quite intuitive. There are a few quirks here and there, no official blog/news module exists, but there is a guide/tutorial for how to create one. The next release (v2.1) will feature a tonne of improvements and those extra modules too. It's exciting times ahead for Silverstripe, and I certainly encourage you all to keep your eye on it. I'm actually developing a web site using Silverstripe at the moment, first time :) Cheers, Tate Johnson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] need help with tabular interface
Thierry Koblentz schreef: So we can use transparent images. If we go with a single SPAN, then the background image used for the A would show *behind* the image used for the SPAN (through the transparent area of the image). I know it's uggly, but this article is 4 or 5 years old :) Ah, for tabs with rounded corners on a polychrome background. I had not really noticed the pattern in the background of Kevins design before. I guess that, in this case, if he uses some tones of blue from that background and uses that to fill the transparent area outside the tabs corner it will be fine. The tones are pretty close to one another so there should be someting in the middle that works on the first tab of the menu as well as on the last tab without people noticing it. But it's true that the 1-span sollution won't work in all circumstances. I'm glad the designers I work with know that rounded corners can be a real pain in the ass, so they always ask before implementing them in the design. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Hi I have used cubecart for a client and he was more than happy with it.. Free with Fantasico as well :) On 5/29/07, Mark Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone. I am currently looking for a cost-effective (preferably opensource) solution to run our companies UK based web site. I have looked at TradingEye PHP Store and have spoke in depth with Wladimir however some features seem restrictive for our needs. If time was not an issue I would create a system from my own experiences however time is a luxury I do not have at the moment and our system needs an overhaul from an administrative point of view. I only took on the development role in May 2006 and I am slowly getting things in order but still a long way to go. Needless to say I am wondering if anyone can offer any advice on a solution for Content Management and E-commerce. Naturally something which adheres to standards compliant design principals. Look forward to feedback. Thanks, Mark Hedley Web Development Manager Mayborn Baby Child Division http://www.tommeetippee.com Jackel International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1894022). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Sangenic International Limited is a company registered in England Wales (registered number 1308939). Our registered office is at Dudley Lane, Cramlington, Northumberland, NE23 7RH. Tel (0191) 2501864, Fax (0191) 2501727. Jackel International and Sangenic International are part of the Mayborn Group This transmission and any attachments are confidential and are intended solely for the named addressee(s). If you are not the addressee, please do not read, copy, use or disclose this transmission and notify us immediately by telephone (0191) 2501864 or by reply. Please then delete this transmission from your system. You should also be aware that all incoming e-mails are monitored for system security purposes. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com http://www.germworks.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions Please for: CMS / E-commerce Solutions
Hi Paul, I'm afraid your experience isn't one we've shared - we're more or less full-time Drupal developers now (after trying a number of alternatives). If you haven't tried it, Drupal 5.x is a major step up from Drupal 4.7 (which was already outstanding) - a very impressive system, and its theming capabilities from my experience are second to none. Drupal uses php as its template language, too, which is a breath of fresh air (given that PHP *is* a template language, I find it amusing that so many people insist on inventing new templating languages written in PHP but with different syntaxes and without all of PHP's capabilities). With regard to the little bits of files, you may be referring to Drupal's rather elegant theme override capabilities, one of its great strengths, in my opinion. These allow you to change only the bits you want to change without incurring the overhead of replicating an entire theme if you don't need to. Drupal's ecommerce functionality has been completely rewritten for 5.x, but it is my understanding that it is quite a big improvement over earlier versions. I haven't used it much myself (my colleagues here have more experience with it and rate it as very good), so I recommend a test drive before committing - but then that's true of any of the CMS/E-Commerce suggestions. Cheers, Dave Paul Bennett wrote: Hi all, I just have to pitch in here. My dealings with Drupal have been less than wonderful. I find it vague and confusing (kind of like it's trying to be everything to everyone) and when I tried to create a new template I found all sorts of crappy table-based code needed, as well as the need to create bits of files all over the place to get one new template working. In my experience, something like Expression Engine (http://www.expressionengine.com) or wordpress (http://www.wordpress.org) would be a far better bet for a simple CMS and a heck of a lot easier for a non-technical editor to use. Just my 2c anyway Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane == Egressive Ltd == [EMAIL PROTECTED] == +64 21 229 8147 +64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = no software patents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
