Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
On 10 Aug 2008, at 23:49, Hassan Schroeder wrote: David Dorward wrote: (Obviously you have to validate against a DTD that includes ARIA features) Right, and the only thing I could find relating to this was: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC Accessible Adaptive Applications//EN This is a public identifier that I've never heard of ... http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; ... but this is the system identifier for plain old, regular XHTML 1.0 Strict. :: which the validator rejects -- hence the question :-) It doesn't really reject it, it just warns you that the combination doesn't make much sense. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Tables for product=price list
In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Here is the current mark-up h3Body Art/h3 table captionBody Art Price List/caption thead tr thProduct/th thPrice/th /tr /thead tbody tr tdSmall (writing only, per letter)/td td£10/td /tr tr tdLarge (writing only, per letter)/td td£20/td /tr tr tdSmall (single color)/td td£40/td /tr tr tdMedium (single color)/td td£80/td /tr tr tdLarge (single color)/td td£110/td /tr tr tdSmall (3 colors)/td td£90/td /tr tr tdMedium (3 colors)/td td£180/td /tr tr tdLarge (3 color)/td td£250/td /tr /tbody /table *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Hi James, My understanding is that if the content is tabular data / data list in nature then tables should be used. If your page had a dynamic element to it - say being able to sort your product by price then the best way to mark it up is by tables (IMO)... with JS. Would be interesting to get other views... Rob 2008/8/11 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here is the current mark-up h3Body Art/h3 table captionBody Art Price List/caption thead tr thProduct/th thPrice/th /tr /thead tbody tr tdSmall (writing only, per letter)/td td£10/td /tr tr tdLarge (writing only, per letter)/td td£20/td /tr tr tdSmall (single color)/td td£40/td /tr tr tdMedium (single color)/td td£80/td /tr tr tdLarge (single color)/td td£110/td /tr tr tdSmall (3 colors)/td td£90/td /tr tr tdMedium (3 colors)/td td£180/td /tr tr tdLarge (3 color)/td td£250/td /tr /tbody /table *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Disagree. Many shopping carts on the web have product lists or summarys marked up in a table. When you look at it from the point of view where one column is the products and the other is the price, and another is VAT per product its more semantic to do it that way. Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
On Mon, August 11, 2008 10:38 am, James Jeffery wrote: Disagree. ... Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. You could easily say its a list, but it's not. It's a table of related student data in which comparisons are made across the rows and down the columns. One compares across the rows for each student's results (expected, actual and percentage) and compares down columns for differences between students. Much more than a list. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
James, sounds like you've answered your own question/doubt then? Perhaps you should head your 'list' as h1Prices/h1 and not h1Price List/h1? 2008/8/11 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Disagree. Many shopping carts on the web have product lists or summarys marked up in a table. When you look at it from the point of view where one column is the products and the other is the price, and another is VAT per product its more semantic to do it that way. Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, August 11, 2008 10:38 am, James Jeffery wrote: Disagree. ... Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. You could easily say its a list, but it's not. It's a table of related student data in which comparisons are made across the rows and down the columns. One compares across the rows for each student's results (expected, actual and percentage) and compares down columns for differences between students. Much more than a list. you don't understand the word list i think. but that's alright; you can learn. -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
And the same can be said for my example where each row has data relating to the product, size, color info and price. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Mon, August 11, 2008 10:38 am, James Jeffery wrote: Disagree. ... Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. You could easily say its a list, but it's not. It's a table of related student data in which comparisons are made across the rows and down the columns. One compares across the rows for each student's results (expected, actual and percentage) and compares down columns for differences between students. Much more than a list. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Even if it where product and price, as in my origional example, a table is still more semantic because the data in the rows relate to the columns i.e. product and price. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:38 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And the same can be said for my example where each row has data relating to the product, size, color info and price. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, August 11, 2008 10:38 am, James Jeffery wrote: Disagree. ... Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. You could easily say its a list, but it's not. It's a table of related student data in which comparisons are made across the rows and down the columns. One compares across the rows for each student's results (expected, actual and percentage) and compares down columns for differences between students. Much more than a list. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Rob, Yeah I have now after extensive research. I have headed the table with a caption and it uses a h3. There are various parent sections above the table that use h2 and h1. Cheers. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Rob Enslin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James, sounds like you've answered your own question/doubt then? Perhaps you should head your 'list' as h1Prices/h1 and not h1Price List/h1? 2008/8/11 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Disagree. Many shopping carts on the web have product lists or summarys marked up in a table. When you look at it from the point of view where one column is the products and the other is the price, and another is VAT per product its more semantic to do it that way. Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Calm down everyone! In this case, though no doubt someone can find a dictionary that disagrees with me, a list could usually be said to be synonymous with a 'single column table' and conversely, a data table is a set of parallel lists - they are both special cases of each other. On that basis, I think we need to look a little deeper to decide what is right and wrong - perhaps someone could point out some reasons why one treatment is more accessible than the other? Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of silky Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, August 11, 2008 10:38 am, James Jeffery wrote: Disagree. ... Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. You could easily say its a list, but it's not. It's a table of related student data in which comparisons are made across the rows and down the columns. One compares across the rows for each student's results (expected, actual and percentage) and compares down columns for differences between students. Much more than a list. you don't understand the word list i think. but that's alright; you can learn. -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Not sure web users would care a whole lot if the heading was prices or price list. Thanks for the debate chaps; I have struggled over this issue on and off for some time and this has helped me to define a simple rule which works for me. [The rule]If the list has multiple columns check because more than likely it should really be a table; if the table has only one column, check because it may be just a list. - Original Message - From: Rob Enslin To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list James, sounds like you've answered your own question/doubt then? Perhaps you should head your 'list' as h1Prices/h1 and not h1Price List/h1? 2008/8/11 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Disagree. Many shopping carts on the web have product lists or summarys marked up in a table. When you look at it from the point of view where one column is the products and the other is the price, and another is VAT per product its more semantic to do it that way. Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Ian and Micheal, you summed up what I was about to write. Some people got really defensive. My argument all along was that a list should not always be marked up as a list as such. Take ebay for example, they even go to the extent of calling their results 'lists'. You can see this on results pages where it says view as list. Nobody says oh look here is my table of results on PS3's they say oh look at that long list of PS3 products, even though behind the scenes its a tables. It would be totally wrong for ebay to mark up their results as lists, but the way they are styled makes them look like lists to humans, though strictly they are not. So a list isn't always a list and my example above was what I was trying to get across. Great debate guys! as always :) James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:46 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob, Yeah I have now after extensive research. I have headed the table with a caption and it uses a h3. There are various parent sections above the table that use h2 and h1. Cheers. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Rob Enslin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James, sounds like you've answered your own question/doubt then? Perhaps you should head your 'list' as h1Prices/h1 and not h1Price List/h1? 2008/8/11 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Disagree. Many shopping carts on the web have product lists or summarys marked up in a table. When you look at it from the point of view where one column is the products and the other is the price, and another is VAT per product its more semantic to do it that way. Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
One way to look at it is that a simple list is a list (in the html sense), whereas a relational list is tabular, so it goes in a table. So, a simple list of 'things to do' would use an HTML list, whereas a list which required data giving more information about the primary list element (a relational list) would be semantically more sound in a table. Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk - Original Message - From: James Jeffery To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list Ian and Micheal, you summed up what I was about to write. Some people got really defensive. My argument all along was that a list should not always be marked up as a list as such. Take ebay for example, they even go to the extent of calling their results 'lists'. You can see this on results pages where it says view as list. Nobody says oh look here is my table of results on PS3's they say oh look at that long list of PS3 products, even though behind the scenes its a tables. It would be totally wrong for ebay to mark up their results as lists, but the way they are styled makes them look like lists to humans, though strictly they are not. So a list isn't always a list and my example above was what I was trying to get across. Great debate guys! as always :) James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:46 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob, Yeah I have now after extensive research. I have headed the table with a caption and it uses a h3. There are various parent sections above the table that use h2 and h1. Cheers. On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Rob Enslin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James, sounds like you've answered your own question/doubt then? Perhaps you should head your 'list' as h1Prices/h1 and not h1Price List/h1? 2008/8/11 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Disagree. Many shopping carts on the web have product lists or summarys marked up in a table. When you look at it from the point of view where one column is the products and the other is the price, and another is VAT per product its more semantic to do it that way. Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890
Re: [WSG] firefox treatment of wrapper overflow height
On 18/07/2008, at 7:45 AM, David Hucklesby wrote: Of course, there are several other ways to enclose floats that do not require that extra DIV. I would have thought that the method described by PIE [1] would be the only sane way to do this. -- Nathan de Vries [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
David Dorward wrote: It doesn't really reject it, it just warns you that the combination doesn't make much sense. Sigh. Semantics. That was one suggested DOCTYPE that I found -- and no, I'm not sure at this point where -- but regardless, do you know the answer to the *original question*: When will the W3C validator support ARIA? Or, if you believe it already does, what is the appropriate DOCTYPE to use? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
I vote table. It's not really a list, regardless of the title you put on it. It's a chart. Jo On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:01 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
On 11 Aug 2008, at 15:14, Hassan Schroeder wrote: David Dorward wrote: It doesn't really reject it, it just warns you that the combination doesn't make much sense. Sigh. Semantics. That was one suggested DOCTYPE that I found -- and no, I'm not sure at this point where -- but regardless, do you know the answer to the *original question*: When will the W3C validator support ARIA? As I said Now. Or, if you believe it already does, what is the appropriate DOCTYPE to use? Umm. What does the spec say? http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ says: ?xml version=1.0? !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML+ARIA 1.0//EN http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-aria-1.dtd html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en ... /html -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
On 11 Aug 2008, at 15:47, David Dorward wrote: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ says: ?xml version=1.0? !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML+ARIA 1.0//EN http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-aria-1.dtd ... except that http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-aria-1.dtd is a 404 error. This is one of the perils of working from a draft rather than a recommendation. You might want to wait for ARIA to be stable. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
On 11 Aug 2008, at 16:47, David Dorward wrote: On 11 Aug 2008, at 15:14, Hassan Schroeder wrote: David Dorward wrote: It doesn't really reject it, it just warns you that the combination doesn't make much sense. Sigh. Semantics. That was one suggested DOCTYPE that I found -- and no, I'm not sure at this point where -- but regardless, do you know the answer to the *original question*: When will the W3C validator support ARIA? As I said Now. Or, if you believe it already does, what is the appropriate DOCTYPE to use? Umm. What does the spec say? http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ says: ?xml version=1.0? !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML+ARIA 1.0//EN http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-aria-1.dtd html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en ... /html This is fine, but is XHML served as XML, so it wont work in IE, thus the real world (unfortunately) -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** David Storey Chief Web Opener, Product Manager Opera Dragonfly, Consumer Product Manager Opera Core, Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member Consumer Product Management Developer Relations Opera Software ASA Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] firefox treatment of wrapper overflow height
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nathan de Vries Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 6:11 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] firefox treatment of wrapper overflow height On 18/07/2008, at 7:45 AM, David Hucklesby wrote: Of course, there are several other ways to enclose floats that do not require that extra DIV. I would have thought that the method described by PIE [1] would be the only sane way to do this. I'm not sure about this, as the easyclearing method may create different layouts across browsers. See http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/block-formatting_context/newBFC.asp [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
On 11 Aug 2008, at 16:16, Hassan Schroeder wrote: David Dorward wrote: When will the W3C validator support ARIA? As I said Now. Using your provided DTD, a simple test file results in: 1. Error Line 2, Column 76: could not get /MarkUp/DTD/xhtml- aria-1.dtd from www.w3.org (reason given was Not Found). Yes, see my follow up. There are problems with the draft ARIA specification. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
David Storey wrote: When will the W3C validator support ARIA? I've no idea for HTML, but I'm not sure it is 100% important. If the rest of your code is valid and the only thing that is invalid is the WAI-ARIA stuff then that would be good enough for me... You're missing the point -- I validate not for religious purity but to make sure I have a valid DOM (no overlapped/missing tags, typos in element names or attributes, etc.). Analyzing each validation to see if errors are OK errors or real errors is not acceptable. We want green bar here, always :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
On 11 Aug 2008, at 17:26, Hassan Schroeder wrote: David Storey wrote: When will the W3C validator support ARIA? I've no idea for HTML, but I'm not sure it is 100% important. If the rest of your code is valid and the only thing that is invalid is the WAI-ARIA stuff then that would be good enough for me... You're missing the point -- I validate not for religious purity but to make sure I have a valid DOM (no overlapped/missing tags, typos in element names or attributes, etc.). Then your solutions are either to do as the W3C suggests and use the class attribute for WAI-ARIA role names, and add afterwards using JavaScript/DOM, or validate before adding the ARIA stuff, then add when you are sure the rest of the mark up is correct. Analyzing each validation to see if errors are OK errors or real errors is not acceptable. We want green bar here, always :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** David Storey Chief Web Opener, Product Manager Opera Dragonfly, Consumer Product Manager Opera Core, Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member Consumer Product Management Developer Relations Opera Software ASA Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
R: [WSG] Re: ARIA
Hi Hassan and everybody, I think that we have to take a while of silence and think about what is *necessary* and what is *pointless*. Well. I'm member of W3C PFWG but I'd like to stress that what follows is my opinion and does not reflect necessary the opinion of the whole Group. Well, I think that: 1. If you provide a valid mark-up you don't need to validate it. 2. If you apply ARIA roles, states and properties in your mark-up and HTML Validator does not validate them... what's the problem? Is the Browser does not render the page correctly? Well, the page is correctly rendered. 3. If you put ARIA in your mark-up, after that you validate the page, are you making some mistakes? No After that I suppose that serving a page understandable by AT (Assistive Technology) is much more important of validation of the page... (I'm not flaming but) I'm not saying to serve invalid pages but: valid mark-up (self validation) with gain of ARIA is better than valid mark-up (HTML Validator). In conclusion, ARIA is still a Working Draft. Don't pretend to have all before the time. *NOTE* I want to clarify again that what I wrote reflects exclusively my humble point of view. Cheers. Diego La Monica Member of Protocols and Formats Working Group for IWA/HWG mobile: +39 3337235382 - skype: diego.la.monica web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it -Messaggio originale- Da: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Per conto di Hassan Schroeder Inviato: lunedì 11 agosto 2008 17.17 A: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Oggetto: Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA David Dorward wrote: When will the W3C validator support ARIA? As I said Now. Using your provided DTD, a simple test file results in: Errors found while checking this document as -//W3C//DTD XHTML+ARIA 1.0//EN! Validation Output: 13 Errors 1. Error Line 2, Column 76: could not get /MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-aria-1.dtd from www.w3.org (reason given was Not Found). …//www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-aria-1.dtd ✉ 2. Error Line 2, Column 76: DTD did not contain element declaration for document type name. …//www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-aria-1.dtd ✉ A DOCTYPE declares the version of the language used, as well as what the root (top) element of your document will be. For example, if the top element of your document is html, the DOCTYPE declaration will look like: !DOCTYPE html. In most cases, it is safer not to type or edit the DOCTYPE declaration at all, and preferable to let a tool include it, or copy and paste it from a trusted list of DTDs. Perhaps you have an example file that validates? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
David Storey wrote: Then your solutions are either to do as the W3C suggests and use the class attribute for WAI-ARIA role names, and add afterwards using JavaScript/DOM, or validate before adding the ARIA stuff, then add when you are sure the rest of the mark up is correct. or just ignore the whole thing, until the validator can handle it :-) Let's hope that's reasonably soon... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: ARIA
David Storey wrote: thing it adds is giving you more brownie points for validating, while not allowing WAI-ARIA to work if JavaScript is turned off. I would have thought that, if JavaScript was turned off, the ARIA stuff wouldn't be too useful. As its purpose is to communicate dynamic changes performed with JS to assistive technologies? If JS is turned off then there's no in page updates and regular WCAG applies? Does ARIA have benefits even to 'static' HTML apps? Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
R: [WSG] Re: ARIA
Return Receipt Your R: [WSG] Re: ARIA document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:08/11/2008 12:38:32 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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