Re: [WSG] W3C HTML Validation of an Intranet site
If you have the capacity, I advise installing your own local copy. Instructions are available from the W3C: http://validator.w3.org/docs/install.html There are similar instructions for the CSS validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html Thanks! Lachlan Hardy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
Reply made offlist as debates of qualifications and recommended medications are definitely OT. /* Admin */ Agreed. This thread is now closed as the majority of content appears to be OT, and is certainly not conducive to helping anybody This list is for discussing and debating web standards and close-related topics. I would prefer this was done in a friendly helpful manner. The list rules *require* that this is done politely and professionally Keep this in mind Thanks Lachlan Hardy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Mabye Australia doesn't come across as being that progressive in other parts of the world, but the only state where gay wombat sex would be prohibited is Tasmania. ;) /* Admin */ Folks, I know it's early in Australia and most of us probably haven't had our coffee yet, but please refrain from using such examples in future. It may not be offensive to you but I'm sure you can see how it's inappropriate for this list If we can return to a discussion I was quite enjoying (using some different examples) that'd be great. If not, consider this thread closed Lachlan Hardy WSG Core (first list admin! Woot!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
Christian Montoya wrote: Please send Clear Blue Day another e-mail and ask them if they have any dinosaurs in their office. This is not intended as an attack on Christian, nor anyone else. Not at all. I'm dead serious on that However, the comment above has reminded me of an attitude I see growing on this list and I want to put forward my point of view It is easy to get on a moral high-horse just because we know about standards The members of this list are no better than any of the developers at Clear Blue Day. Some work we produce may (or may not) be better than work they produce. There are many measures of worth. You have to be pretty damn good to top the scale across the board. This has no bearing of whether or not you treat them as politely and respectfully as any other person One of the main tenets behind adoption of standards is equality, not just of technology but of people. They're for everyone. That includes developers or development companies who may not appreciate the benefits immediately Standardista: Hey, development company, you should use standards! Development company: Nah, we don't get it. I don't want to. Standardista: Oh, well, then you're obviously scum. I'll not bother you further except to malign you This doesn't strike me as the way to advocate successfully I appreciate standards because of the opportunities for access and growth they offer. I appreciate (oh boy, do I appreciate!) how hard they can be to learn I also appreciate that changing 6 or 8 or 10 years of coding practice and philosophy of web development is incredibly difficult These are the kinds of people we should be reaching out to. We shouldn't be dismissing them. We should be bringing them into the fold Maybe you write some company an email asking if they know about standards and they tell you to get stuffed. Fair enough. We all know about flogging dead horses Kat's response from Clear Blue Day doesn't seem to indicate that to me though. It just indicates to me that they don't get it Surely, if someone doesn't get it, you try to establish a conversation? You try to help them? That's the attitude that I would like to see prevalent on this list. One of helpful conversation, not scornful condemnation (even in jest) Regards Lachlan PS If anyone feels the urge to flame me vehemently for this post, please do so off-list. Otherwise, I'd love to discuss my views with everyone ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Terrence Wood wrote: where's the map? I'm sorry, I thought Lisa wanted an example of the unordered list conversion to dropdown list ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
kvnmcwebn wrote: Nice script. What sort of attribution would you like if I borrow it? It is brilliant Lachlan i'd like to use it to if you don't mind. Well, shucks, guys. Like I said, I didn't write it. I've just checked with a colleague, and as far as we can recall (this was months ago) it was our idea and a subcontractor did it for us. So whilst anyone is welcome to take the idea, I can't speak for the exact code On the other hand, it is remarkably simple to implement, so I can't imagine that you'd have too much difficulty working up something similar Out of interest, surely there are other folks out there doing this kind of thing? Perhaps someone else has a script they actually own the copyright to that they are willing to share? Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: kvnmcwebn wrote: My big concerns: how to make these jump menus standards and seo friendly? As others have mentioned, there are various usability issues. However, in these circumstances (insistent clients etc) we usually build the menu out of an unordered list then use Javascript to transform that into a dropdown list for those with JS. This means that your menu will be more search engine and screen reader friendly, while still looking the way your client prefers it Consider it a 'white lie of web design' Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method
Herrod, Lisa wrote: can you send a link to an example of one of these? Try this one: http://www.business.vic.gov.au/ Hopefully, you'll forgive the lack of validation - not our implementation, although I'm sure it'll get there eventually Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Christian Montoya wrote: OK, now you have me very excited. Does this go in external stylesheets? How's the support for IE browsers? Other browsers? Tell me more. G'day Christian, The expression code that Paul used (and which I often use myself) is proprietary to Microsoft. IE allows some Javascript within CSS files. It is however invalid according to W3C standards. When using code like that, I add it in a separate IEhacks.css file via conditional comments (or I'd like to!). But, then, we all do that, right? Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WE05
Katrina wrote: Who has ever seen a div with a class of header? Why not use a header (eg.h1) element? I may not have understood that. I may have misheard that. I'm sorry if I did. Aren't the header tags reserved for text? Is it acceptable form to place non-textual elements only inside of header tags? Eg. h1img src=image.jpg alt=An image/h1 ? G'day Kat My understanding was that he was talking about things like: div class=headerThis is a heading on the page/div With a bunch of CSS to style div.header so that it is big and bold and a different colour or something I see that on poorly marked-up pages all the time. When folks first start standards-based design (or even simply CSS-based layout) they don't necessarily comprehend the value of semantics straight off After a while, they realise that using a H1 is a much better option, but not everyone gets that right away It's just as likely that I misunderstood, but that was my interpretation, anyway Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CHISIG Seminar Sydney 04.10
G'day folks, my colleague Gian Sampson-Wild had some issues posting this to the list so I'm forwarding it on her behalf. As such, apologies for the late notice: From: Gian Sampson-Wild Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2005 7:17 PM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: CHISIG Seminar Sydney 04.10 In case you are interested - I'll be saying some interesting things about WCAG 2.0... Sydney CHISIG seminar In order to comply with the DDA you must follow the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG). This international set of guidelines is used around the world by managers, developers and content authors to ensure that a site can be used by people with disabilities. Gian Sampson-Wild, a Member of the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group, will discuss the use of these guidelines and how they are currently being modified. If you'd like attend this seminar the details are: Date: Tuesday October 4, 2005 Time: 6 - 7.30 pm Location: UTS Cost: Free for CHISIG members, $5 for non-members. RSVP: By Mon 3 October to [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] iFocus Pty Limited Level 1, 450 St Kilda Road Melbourne Vic 3004 ph: + 61 3 8807 0100 | fx: +61 3 8807 0101 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.ifocus.com.au http://www.ifocus.com.au/ :: Australian Federal Government Endorsed Supplier :: Queensland Government Information Technology Contract (GITC) Endorsed Supplier :: Member of the Victorian Government eServices Panel :: Member of the Australian Government Information Management Office Web Management Panel (AGIMO) --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Herrod, Lisa wrote: I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' Well, although it bears no relation to Sydney, or indeed, tertiary education, there is a high school in Victoria teaching standards-based web design. As I think I may have mentioned on the list before, I wrote a few courses, and even delivered some. I was teaching (whilst supervised by a qualified teacher, of course) Year 8 students standards-based web design - coding HTML and CSS from scratch in Notepad. They grasped it pretty quickly, although I suppose that most will forget it or have their knowledge corrupted by future use of FrontPage or something I've since moved on to a corporate job, but my father is still there teaching a course of mine (with his own modifications) to Year 11 and 12 students The main problem is that the kind of tutorials and articles that we all learnt from, and the investigation and exploration we all did (and are doing, hopefully) are completely unsuited to teaching a class full of students. Particularly those in high-school You want to educate the educators? Provide them with material tailored for use in the classroom that they can use immediately Seona wrote: Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Actually, dealing with staff was worse! Students are easy, you just show them cool stuff and they get excited. Staff are way too jaded for that to work. They just want stuff that won't take up any extra time in their day. As Andreas said, they don't have time to maintain the requisite knowledge Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - a challenge!
designer wrote:
OK, I don't use tables, except for tabular data. I've been doing this
standards stuff for for just one year and there is only one place where
I use a table for layout, and that is to put something (div, or
whatever) slap bang in the middle of the screen, both vertically and
horizontally. There are many ways to do this, but none of them (that I
know) are as simple or as reliable as this method using a single-cell
table:
G'day Bob,
It is of somewhat limited use, due to width constraints, but this works
beautifully in the right circumstances:
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd;
html lang=en-auheadmeta http-equiv=Content-Type
content=text/html; charset=utf-8titleCentre test/title
style type=text/css
html, body {height: 100%; margin: 0; padding: 0;}
div#content {background-color: #FFC; height: 50%; width: 50%;
position: absolute; left: 25%; top: 25%; }
/style
/head
body
div id=content
h1Oooh, a heading/h1
h2A sub-heading/h2
pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Duis
nonummy posuere tortor. Ut sollicitudin imperdiet ante. Quisque
facilisis porta turpis. Ut porttitor dictum tellus. Aliquam in risus.
Duis magna est, lobortis nec, gravida vitae, tempor eget, magna.
Phasellus luctus enim in tortor./p
/div
/body/html
Save all that as an HTML file and see what you think
Cheers
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Seona Bellamy wrote: I can't see why it wouldn't be the same for teachers. I mean, English and Literature teachers need to read the texts they will be taking their class through so that they are familiar with the material. When the way of approaching mathematics changed (my mother has told some highly amusing anecdotes about being a student during the shift to new maths back in the late 60s/early 70s) all the maths teachers would have had to go out and learn the new approach and new techniques so they could teach their students. Why can't the same be said of Web Development teachers? Because that would require a directive from above. And would still be resisted for all the usual reasons that change is resisted. The key component there, though, is convincing the relevant curriculum bodies of the importance of standards-based design. Independent institutions such as TAFEs, universities and private schools can determine their curriculum to greater or lesser extent. Government schools cannot. Organisations such as (in Australia), VCAA and its equivalents in other states and the Curriculum Corporation etc need to be convinced. Another way to reach teachers is via teaching associations or computing associations. I've yet to hear of anyone making any ground in any of those arenas pushing a standards-based agenda Anyone with ideas for taking those academic ivory towers by storm is welcome to email me personally if they don't want to share with the list Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible?
russ - maxdesign wrote: I remember the information, as it was a surprising statement, but not the specifics. I seem to recall Doug Bowman saying something similar about the Wired redesign at Web Essentials last year. I've hunted around on the web for a reference, but can't find an article that mentions it. Which means that either it was just verbal, or my memory is even worse than I think it is Hope that adds to the confusion! ;) Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mac IE hack and CSS validation
Bruce Gilbert wrote:
*htmlbody #wrapper_inner{ width:750px; background-color:#036;
padding:0; margin:0; }
the * causes to CSS to not validate due to a parsing error. Is there
any way around this??
From a future-proofing perspective, I recommend you try Tantek's
IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter:
http://stopdesign.com/log/2004/07/06/filtering-css.html
That will deliver rules to IE5/Mac only and your CSS file will still
validate
Mind you, Kenny is right: using '* html body' instead of '*htmlbody'
should validate as well
Cheers
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] Mac IE hack and CSS validation
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
is a chain of descendant selectors (with the '' representing a direct
parentchild pair),
what could possibly be the parent of html ?
According to spec, nothing. However all versions (AFAIK) of IE, both Win
and Mac, render their DOM with an anonymous parent to the HTML element.
Someone else could probably explain with the appropriate technical
terms, but that is how I understand it
So, '* html' will therefore only be a rule rendered by versions of
Internet Explorer as all other browsers (to my knowledge) render
correctly with HTML as the root element. Using this bug to your
advantage via CSS is commonly referred to as the Star Hack
Meanwhile IE/Win doesn't support child selectors ('html body'), but
IE/Mac does. Therefore '* html body' means that nothing IE/Mac will
render that CSS rule. Commonly referred to as the Star Body Hack
(Probably should be Star Child, but language is what it is)
Cheers
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] Sydney and Melbourne WSG meetings tonight
Peter Firminger wrote: I only have 8 RSVPs for Sydney so far? We have 12 for Melbourne so far, but I'd like more! Nigel is an fervent speaker. If you're in Melbourne and you're not coming tonight - you are crazy! Or just not geeky enough ;) Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?
Vaska.WSG wrote: I've been reading around (via Google) and I find others with similar problems but no solution. Is there a solution to this? Whenever I present code in a page, I use something similar to the method Simon Willison put forward by in July 2002: http://development.incutio.com/simon/numbered-code-experiment.html Works for me. I've yet to find a better method (although if someone has one...) Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] label tag wrapping around checkbox
Peter Ottery wrote: if you had part of a form that had a checkbox that when checked enabled a file upload input, how would you mark that up? G'day Pete I think your wrapping of the labels is appropriate, but I'd probably include a fieldset to surround the lot - indicating their relationship to each other clearly fieldset legendAdd a thumbnail image?/legend label for=addthumb input name=addthumb id=addthumb type=checkbox value=1 / Add thumbnail image: /label label for=path span class=hideawaypath to image:/span input id=path name=path type=file disabled / /label /fieldset Or something like that... Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] mutli language websites
sam sherlock wrote: I would also appreciate any links to web standard sites using multiple languages? Still doing some under-the-hood work on this one to bring it up to speed, but you can check out http://www.liveinvictoria.vic.gov.au/ to see the site I was pestering the list about a month or so back (thread starts here: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg16198.html) Not all pages have multiple languages, but some have translations of the English in both Traditional and Simplified Chinese. Preferred language can be selected in the RH column. I used UTF-8 Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Formatting tables
Hope Stewart wrote:
For example, instead of
table cellpadding=8 summary=This is a table of products and prices.
I left out the cellpadding attribute in the table tag and added this to my
style sheet:
td {
padding: 0.5em 5px 2em 0;
}
but it didn't work.
G'day Hope,
Typically, that padding should have worked fine. And, does, when stuck
into one of my tables. Therefore, as James said, we'll need either link
or the code in order to sort this one out
A great reference is (of course) the spec:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/tables.html
It covers border-collapsing, padding and pretty much every way in which
CSS interacts with HTML tables
I'll send you some sample code off-list, in case that helps
Cheers
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] Javascript - the last piece of the puzzle
russ - maxdesign wrote: The Sydney Web Standards meeting went well tonight with about 33 people present. I just want to say thank you to the Sydney crew for making a Ballarat boy feel welcome. You guys really have an excellent atmosphere and the meeting was a lot of fun - as was the sojourn at the pub afterwards. If anyone gets the chance to attend an interstate meet, I highly recommend it It was one of Richards first ever presentations, and he handled himself exceptionally well under some heavy crossfire from Sydney members. Thank you Richard! As Russ said, Richard's presentation was excellent. Informative and very interesting. For Melbournites (or interstate visitors) interested in JS and the DOM used in accessible and interesting ways, don't forget the Melbourne meeting on this Thursday - nice segue! 6:00pm - Informal drinks and chat at BearBrass (nearby pub in Southgate) 6:30-6:45pm - Gather in foyer of IBM Tower 7:00-7:10pm - Introductions, Welcome from organizers 7.10pm-7.40pm Cameron Adams JavaSt is not a dirty word: Creating accessible, interactive web pages. 7:40-8:00pm Questions, discussion, arguments... We've quite a few RSVPs, so this looks to be a hot topic. Check the site for further details: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event33.cfm Cheers, Lachlan PS as a personal aside, although I haven't managed to time my Brisbane trip as well as my Sydney trip, I'll be there for the second half of next week. Any folks interested in dinner or drinks Wed-Fri with occasional standards-related conversation, please contact me OFF-list ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a required field marker in forms
Peter Ottery wrote: 1) I'm curious if the use of an asterix to indicate a required field, and the way I've done it, is ok accessibility-wise or if theres anything else i could/should do...? G'day Pete I've recently undertaken the same work myself. I'm beginning to undertake a very OO approach to HTML and CSS. I'm creating quite a collection of code snippets. As such, I've recently addressed similar issues My understanding is that some screenreaders simply identify an isolated asterix as a grammatical entity. This will still work to a certain degree, but if there are any 'grammatical entities' in use on the page, or probably the site, it could cause confusion. It certainly doesn't indicate the kind of effect I had always assumed it did I've changed to actually using the word required. Near as I can tell, this is the only guaranteed way of achieving the appropriate effect Perhaps Patrick, Russ or one of the other accessibility gurus can confirm or deny? Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Brisbane, last night
Lea de Groot wrote: Last night's Brisbane meeting was a roaring success. Our new venue at the Library was great, with the only downside being no internet connection. It seems Brisbane's standard is the leading edge - an interstate visitor tells us we are far ahead of Melbourne in catering. Better pick up the slack, guys ;) We'll take that challenge. There has a been a bit of a hiatus, but Melbourne is back as good as ever. Our new venue at IBM Tower looks to be excellent. The only issue being that we're not allowed to eat and drink in there. We plan to circumvent this by inviting everyone to the pub both before AND after Cameron's excellent presentation So, Matt and I hope to see a bunch of Melbournites - and anyone else who happens to be in the area on May 5 - on the doorstep, lured by the promise of booze and geekery in glorious combination (booze optional) Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
G'day folks! A query for those with some experience in using multiple languages in their sites: In a site that is predominantly English, select pages have been translated into both Simplified and Traditional Chinese. Each page contains a link where users are able to indicate their preferred language (hence receiving translated pages as appropriate). My issue is how to show this this link appropriately Originally I had something similar to this: a href=# lang=zh-Hans title= /a (don't know this will come out in email, but the contents of the anchor and its title attribute are Simplified Chinese) However, this fails as on many computers it will appear as those horrible little blocks that indicate lack of the appropriate font Next attempt was something like: a href=#img src=# alt=Most pages will display in English, only translated pages display in Simplified Chinese. title=When selected, most pages will be in readable in English with only translated pages displaying in Simplified Chinese. /a Except of course, that doesn't give any indication of language involved. Suggestions, experiences, vague clues? Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
Juergen Auer wrote: try to save the html-file as UTF-8 and use the chinese letters directly. And add meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 / Your solution can't work if the page is saved as Ascii / 256 Bit. Sorry, should have mentioned that. Yes, the page is UTF-8 (by both server settings and meta element). That still doesn't help me. The Chinese characters only display correctly in IE when I specify the correct language Dejan Kozina wrote: a href=# lang=en hreflang=zh-Hans title=Most pages... img src=# lang=zh-Hans alt=... title=... /a with the image saying something like Chinese version. Yep, the image does indicate the version. Good idea on the HREFLANG. Haven't used that previously, I'll have to investigate Now, if your design allows for a little padding of the a you'd have the English title shortly displayed before the mouse hovers on the image, so those without a proper font can roll back their mouse to the link when their browser fails to display the alt text. Unfortunately, these links are in a small sidebar. Not a lot of room for spare padding - okay, none. I had to shrink the images a tad to get them in there in the first place. Cool idea though, I might have to see if I can work it in somehow if I can't get a better solution Thanks for your suggestions, guys. Anyone else want to share? Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
Well, this will teach me not to send messages to the list without proper sleep. I'll try and explain the situation a bit better: The Chinese (both Traditional and Simplified) was encoded in UTF-8 and is displayed as UTF-8. It shows up fine for me in Firefox. It shows up fine in IE, if the code specifies the change of language. It shows only blocks in IE if simply inputted without particular language specification. I have not installed language packs etc, but I'm not fussed about that. My testing shows that the Chinese will work fine for those who want to see it My concern (and that of my client) is for those people who do not have Chinese (of either variety) installed on their machine and don't want to. If an typical user comes upon a section of the page that doesn't display in readable fashion, their assumption is likely to be that the site does not work. It is always my fault, not theirs. I'm attempting to find a way around that Currently, main content pages in Chinese contain a special blurb in English to explain that this is a Chinese page, how to see it if they want to and provide a link back to the English version in case they don't. I need to be able to either explain to users that the unreadable (for them) content is Chinese, or show it as Chinese consistently Hopefully, that is a bit clearer, seeing as I've had some coffee now Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling the legend tag in a fieldset
Phil Baines wrote: http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/InForm/fieldset.htm : would you say that there is no way to style a legend so that it is not ON the border of the fieldset? It looks like The Man in Blue used a H3. There must be a way of styling Legends like this. G'day Phil, if you read the associated article you'll see Cameron's explanation of how a couple of different browsers interpret the positioning of LEGEND. It covers possible manipulations and why they might not be a good idea Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling Forms
G'day folks Firstly, apologies to Chris for not noticing that he'd already referred Mario to Cameron's article Secondly, Drew's points: It may make styling easier but incorporating form controls in labels has a different meaning than associating a label and a form control. For one thing, it isn't usable for those choosing a table layout for forms. Nor is it possible to use an incorporated form control with multiple labels. Both very good points. Obviously incorporating form controls and labels wouldn't make sense for a typical tabular form layout. On the other hand, I don't know why you'd want to use tables for layout when you could style the elements themselves I guess there could be some cases where you NEED multiple inputs to be associated with each other as tabular data - perhaps an editable data grid or the like? In which case, not being able to assign multiple labels to each input would also be an issue I don't see standard web forms (ie detail-gathering for shopping, membership registration, feedback etc) as requiring a table structure. Those sort of forms inevitably have simpler internal relationships Back to the multiple labels: Again, there are definitely scenarios (such as the one above) where they could be put to good use. However, I've never actually done it. Every time I've come across a potential use for multiple labels, I've realised that my form simply needs better specification Obviously all of the above is completely subjective. Maybe I'm the only one who has never needed to do either of the things Drew mentioned. As he said: Use what you want, but use it correctly. For my money, incorporating form controls inside labels is my default construction for form HTML. Occasionally, I've needed to consider other options, but each time some creative CSS has produced the required layout and saved me changing the HTML Oh, and I still use the FOR attribute, regardless of implicit associations Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout?
Stevio wrote: - Original Message - From: Lachlan Hardy Despite my strong disapproval of fixed width (I know, I know, the redesign is coming), the following works for me Do you object to a column being a fixed width? I understand your objection to a fixed width overall layout, but why object to a column being fixed width? G'day Stephen Andrew ably represented my views on fixed width. Here's my summation though - it just doesn't work There are some circumstances where you can use absolute units to good effect, but I can't think of any that involve fixed width I'd say more, but after reading Andrew's essay, I'm knackered. (Thanks, Andrew: I just didn't have a rant in me today!) Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout?
Stevio wrote:
To expand on the simple 2 column layout, how can I have a fixed width left
column (for navigation) and a right column that fills the rest of the
space.
This is achieved in tables by setting the left cell to, for example, 150
width, and the right column to 100%.
Despite my strong disapproval of fixed width (I know, I know, the
redesign is coming), the following works for me
Same HTML, change these CSS rules to the following:
#somecol {
float: left;
margin-left: 10px;
width: 150px;
}
#someothercol {
margin-left: 165px;
}
Cheers,
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout?
Stevio wrote:
What is the simplest way to layout 2 columns? Nothing fancy, just a bit
of content in each one. No background colour.
You didn't ask for header and footer, but if you don't want them just
remove...
HTML:
body
div id=header...some header content.../div
div id=somecol...some column content.../div
div id=someothercol...some other column content.../div
div id=footer...some footer content.../div
/body
CSS:
#somecol {
float: left;
margin-left: 1%;
width: 40%;
}
#someothercol {
float: left;
margin-left: 1%;
width: 40%;
}
#footer {
clear: both;
}
That should just about do it. Simple, relatively unbreakable (anyone
object to that statement?)
Increase the widths as appropriate, just remember that percentages are
dealt with slightly differently by most browsers (all?) so that widths
that work in one may not work in all others - basically, the widths and
margins should never amount to 100%, but in some browsers a better
number is 98% total
Cheers,
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] CSS3.0
ByteDreams wrote: I'm a newbie, I admit, so allow me to ask a dumb question. Are there any browsers currently supporting some of these CSS3 modules? I sure would like to try some experimental stuff with these tags if there are... Try Blake Scarborough's piece from last November: Looking Around the Corner at CSS3 [1] And Stuart Langridge's article from August 2002(!): External Links the CSS Way [2] The latter illustrates one relatively common use of substring matching that the former fails to mention Personally, I use CSS3 in a 'progressive enhancement' fashion. None of my pages rely on it, but if you have a supporting browser you get a few bonuses Enjoy! Lachlan [1] http://www.blakems.com/archives/88.html [2] http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2002/08/30/external ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
john wrote: Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? Thanks. As everyone has said, the convention has been dropped. Should it have been? As Terrence Wood said, Apparently the convention comes about because it makes it easier to distinguish the end of a sentence, both from the preceding sentence and from mid-sentence abbreviations terminated with a period when using a typewriter. Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are that the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all, but particularly those with cognitive disabilities I understand we're no longer using mono-spaced fonts (except when by choice) but perhaps that modern font kerning is not enough for some people with some issues Unfortunately, I can't find any data to back me up on this. I know one person with extreme dyslexia who curses the day that folks turned their backs on the double-spacing. He says it slows him down dramatically The only articles I could find on this are old, but I've included them for reference: http://www.evolt.org/article/Two_Spaces_After_a_Period_Isn_t_Dead_Yet/25/213/ http://www.webword.com/reports/period.html Anyone have on thoughts on the accessibility of this issue? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Wayne Godfrey wrote: This isn't a matter of grammar or standards, it's a matter of correct use of punctuation. With the thought process that's being put forth here, would you also put double spaces before and after an em dash? What about commas, quote marks, and all other forms of punctuation? Why not just put spaces between each and every letter as well? I'm sorry, it is incorrect and no amount of accessibility will ever make me change my mind. My thought process referred to more easily identifying a sentence as a discrete unit. Therefore, no, I wouldn't agree with any of your other (presumably sarcastic) suggestions. As Russ said, I'm not interested in the grammar - indeed, I agree that double-spacing is to be considered grammatically incorrect - I am interested in whether there is potential for increasing the accessibility of large bodies of text Patrick H. Lauke wrote: However, it could also have the opposite effect of reducing accessibility for users with dyslexia (and the problem of rivers of white caused by too much - irregular - spacing) As I indicated, my only example of distinct benefit from this process is from an extreme dyslexic. He finds that the assistance of additional spacing after a full stop (period) is invaluable to increasing his reading speed and comprehension. Whether that holds true for other dyslexics is something I'd like to discover, so if anyone can find any stats... Of course, as usual with accessibility - particularly web accessibility, statistics are extremely hard to find. I have none. Neither of my local accessibility experts know of any (although they both agree with me in theory) As for possible implementations, what we need is someway of defining sentences (possibly a crazy Inman/Adams-style regex?) and then word-spacing would probably fix it. Richard's JS would work fine with an excellent regex Cheers, Lachlan PS First time I've posted to the list in ages and look what happens! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] why oh why
Web Usability wrote: A friend of mine came across this site yesterday and when he accessed it with Firefox he got nothing but code on the screen. http://www.ceinternet.com.au/site/index.htm Roger, As others have said, the problem is the 'text/plain' I've noted that http://www.ceinternet.com.au/site/index.htm does not open in FF 1.0, but oddly http://www.ceinternet.com.au/site/ works fine Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] converting WORD text into clean XHTML
john wrote: I'm wondering if there's some easy (and free) way to convert text from a WORD document into clean XHTML that retains the formatting. If you have Dreamweaver, try using the 'Clean Up Word HTML Tool'. Then 'Convert to XHTML'. Any gunk left over after that is easily cleaned out using a few decent regular expressions in the 'Find and Replace' Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] converting WORD text into clean XHTML
john wrote: I'm wondering if there's some easy (and free) way to convert text from a WORD document into clean XHTML that retains the formatting. Another addition: I just remembered that recent versions of Word allow you to save as HTML, Filtered. This is MS-speak for removing all Office specific tags. You still get that MSo-style rubbish, but it clears some of the more awkward stuff out straight away ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The Lindsay Method, version 2
As Dejan and Christian indicated, the validator automatically assumes use of CSS 2.0 However, using the advanced interface allows you to choose which version you would like to validate against. In the case of Lindsay's site, validating against CSS 3.0 removes some of the errors - the pseudo-element such-and-such can't appear here in the context css2 Unfortunately, the validator does not yet offer the option of validating against CSS 2.1. Anyone know when this is likely to happen? Although, I don't believe that would have any effect on use of -moz properties anyway Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Footer Solution
Chris Kennon wrote: Have I arrived at the semantically correct solution for placing the footer. Also before beginning the typographic positioning , does the core CSS have semantic credence. I'm not sure that I quite understand your questions, Chris I can't see how semantics have a place in the positioning of any element. The term 'semantics' when bandied about in standards-based web design (as it often is) refers to using markup tags for the purpose for which they were intended, ie using h1 tags instead of simply making bold a particular bit of text and making it bigger Sorry, if I've missed the point and I'm teaching you how to suck eggs (what does that expression mean, anyway?) On the other hand, I think that is an excellent solution for placing a footer. I use it all the time (probably why I think it is excellent, no?) and it works beautifully Again, when it comes to the 'semantic credence' of your CSS, I'm not sure that CSS can be said to have semantics. Except possibly in terms of the IDs you have used. Certainly I attempt to steer clear of using IDs such as 'column1' and 'column2'. I prefer to describe the purpose of that block of content, ie 'maincontent' and 'subcontent'. This helps if I decide to move the content around later This doesn't hold any real semantics, but I find it neater and more in fitting with the concept of semantic code as I understand it Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Design for PDA?
Isabel Santos wrote: It seams to me that the pda is trying to render the normal css (principalquasar40.css) and not the pda's one - 01pda.css (where the central column should occupy all the screen not showing any body background and widths should be mutch smaller). Unfortunately this is almost always the case. Many handheld browsers don't check for the handheld media type... yet The list has covered these topics a few times. These threads contain some valuable links that you might want to check out: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg05976.html http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg08279.html Depending on typical PDA support for Javascript, another article you might want to look at is Cameron Adams' Resolution Dependent Layout: http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/09/21/ Hope that helps some Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zeroing default padding/margin
Nick Lo wrote: I was just reading the article excerpted below and was curious as to how many on the list have used this technique of initially setting all padding and margins to 0 and if so how successful was it? Well, I've used it a few times since I read that article and it rocks In the relatively short time since then I've included in two of my own projects and suggested its use to a student. In the former case, I've found the added control makes everything so much easier. In the latter case it allowed her to centre her inline unordered list (she was seriously struggling with her navigation), and a few other things on her page all fell into place. I found out later that a significant portion of the class has now adopted it for their own stylesheets I haven't encountered any problems with its use yet. I can't really envisage any. Obviously you need to add padding and margins specifically to most elements now, but I find that a benefit. After all, I rarely rely on default values for lists, paragraphs or headings So thanks to Andrew (who I believe is a member?). I don't know why I never thought of it before, especially after Eric Meyer's article on removing default CSS; but I didn't, so kudos to you In other words, Nick, I say use it all the time. I am ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FYI: article on making your ASP.NET pages XHTML valid
Ryan Nichols wrote: If anyone is interested, I have done the same thing using another method. Instead of relying on text search and replace, you can just create your own HTMLTextWriter. I use XHTMLTextWriter when I want to write XHTML, and the standard when I don't. It's a wee bit more robust that way, perhaps even faster. If anyone's interested in altering .NET this way, just email me directly. G'day Ryan I'm always interested in the hoops people have had to jump through to make ASP.NET valid. I'd love to see how you chose to do it. Most folks seem to do it all as a rewrite after the fact - effective but resource-hungry and a killer for large sites Feel free to drop me a line when you have some free time and let me know what you did Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Ryan Nichols wrote: The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing'). Contextual information has been used for a looong time in user interfaces. Just think of the numerous desktop applications you use on a daily basis and how they use pop-up windows to either prompt for more data, or provide other useful information. An interesting perspective, Ryan, but I find your contextual argument to be thoroughly convincing as a reinforcement of my own If a user wants to maintain their context by opening a new tab/window, they may (as indeed, I almost always do). Forcing a new tab/window provides no choice to the user I could possibly be swayed to agree with you when we are talking about literal, full web applications. If someone chooses to purchase, or install, a specific web application then I am happy to assume that they have done their research. Hence they would be aware of the application's policy regarding use of popups for certain functions etc I would not consider a shopping cart on a site to qualify as such a web application. The user on an ecommerce site has not chosen the application or its functionality. They using it merely as a means to an end The difference between the two being that one allows the user a choice (in purchasing the application) whereas the other does not Now that we are significantly off into the philosophical waffle of hypothetical scenarios and ethical stances (not necessarily a bad thing), I hope all this is helping John sway his usability team! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is XHTML harmful?
Manuel González Noriega wrote: You learn that you should validate anything before making it live (just like you'd spell-check and proofread anything before going to publication in the print world, for instance). ;) Hmmm... I started writing a reply a few hours ago and events overtook me. Still, I think I have a few points to add that haven't been made yet On use of validation: valid code is not difficult. Maybe it is because I came to this from programming, but I have zero difficulties in writing valid code. These days I hardly validate at all. Just a validation of the entire site as part of the final testing before going live. As Manuel said, it is just like using a spell-checker The other point I wished to make refers to the oft-mentioned user error can stuff my whole page argument. The problem there consists of a lack of appropriate programming. If you have a CMS, it should check all user input - for spelling, grammar (very hard to implement), and validity. If your CMS doesn't do this, why use it? The obvious answer is because no CMS does this. But they damn well should! (If you know of one that does, please send me a message off-list, I'd love to hear about it) Prepping a server to deliver XHTML 1.1 to browsers that can cope and HTML 4.01 to the rest takes a lot of effort and know-how in the first place. I believe the best way to do it is programmatically. If you're capable of that (or you have a programming gimp who is), then set up some automatic validation for user input and you're set Peter Ottery wrote: So when we 'sold' the CSS concept internally, we 'sold' xHTML along with it, and everything that goes along with it to focus attention on better coding practices. Pete, I'm assuming from your comments that you aim for valid code by changing institutional practices rather than programmatically? I don't have a problem with that. It is great if you can do it. My problem lies in that I've never had a client who could write even bad HTML. I rely on WYSIWYG for user input and that requires cleaning A further point: The school I work at teaches solely XHTML 1.0 Strict to the students (the staff get a tutorial to work through on MS Frontpage, but that is a whole different problem). Why do we do that? Because it teaches better technique, and because being capable of writing well-formed XHTML might even be important by the time they are out in the workforce doing something. Once they know how to write valid XHTML 1.0 Strict, it isn't too hard to raise the bar to XHTML 1.1 or to transfer to HTML 4.01. Teaching them XHTML 1.0 Strict leaves them with the choice of where to go when they are doing their own thing ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Apparently I too browse in a very similar manner to Wayne, I open just about every link in a new tab. Back when I used IE, I opened them in a new window (Shift+Click was a wonderful thing, now it's Ctrl+Click) However, I totally disapprove of opening links in a new window for one reason only: If the link opens a new tab/window and I DON'T want one, how do I correct that easily? If the link doesn't open a new tab/window and I want one I can easily modify my actions to make it happen via keyboard shortcuts or the context menu. Cutting and pasting URLs = pain in the bum = annoyed user The only way to get by these days is to assume that the user knows what they want and how to get it, and at least provide a consistent experience for the users who don't know those things Someone previously mentioned those with learning disabilities becoming confused by new windows unexpectedly opening. This also applies to the non-IT savvy amongst us, of whom there are many. A consistent user-experience is absolutely necessary in order to allow these people to cope with the bewilderment they experience simply by being on a computer, let alone the web The argument that users will learn to cope doesn't hold water with me. Some users will, but there will always be some who won't. I work with one guy regularly who is quite smart and very knowledgeable in his own field but for the last ten years I've been trying to teach him how to save to a disk and he still doesn't get it. He is obviously an extreme case, but I work with many others with only slightly better IT capabilities. Anything which reduces confusion for these folks and increases consistency is a good thing! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
Apparently I too browse in a very similar manner to Wayne, I open just about every link in a new tab. Back when I used IE, I opened them in a new window (Shift+Click was a wonderful thing, now it's Ctrl+Click) However, I totally disapprove of opening links in a new window for one reason only: If the link opens a new tab/window and I DON'T want one, how do I correct that easily? If the link doesn't open a new tab/window and I want one I can easily modify my actions to make it happen via keyboard shortcuts or the context menu. Cutting and pasting URLs = pain in the bum = annoyed user The only way to get by these days is to assume that the user knows what they want and how to get it, and at least provide a consistent experience for the users who don't know those things Someone previously mentioned those with learning disabilities becoming confused by new windows unexpectedly opening. This also applies to the non-IT savvy amongst us, of whom there are many. A consistent user-experience is absolutely necessary in order to allow these people to cope with the bewilderment they experience simply by being on a computer, let alone the web The argument that users will learn to cope doesn't hold water with me. Some users will, but there will always be some who won't. I work with one guy regularly who is quite smart and very knowledgeable in his own field but for the last ten years I've been trying to teach him how to save to a disk and he still doesn't get it. He is obviously an extreme case, but I work with many others with only slightly better IT capabilities. Anything which reduces confusion for these folks and increases consistency is a good thing! Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Strange style behaviour in IE
Anura wrote: What happens is that once the page has loaded, if you scroll down and then scroll up again, the styles are then displayed. Hit refresh, and they disappear again. Also, I notice that hitting the ALT key makes those styles disappear. I haven't checked, but it sounds a lot like the Peekaboo bug [1]. Even if it isn't, that site might be able to help Cheers, Lachlan [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Miles to go before I sleep....
Ted Drake wrote:
Here's my first question. In firefox win it looks fine. In IE, I have about 10-15px margin between the topnav and the content div. I've played with the margin on the topmenu and that does have an impact. I've made the gap smaller by defining the margin on topmenu, but it still exists on IE and not in firefox.
Given the complexity of the code, I couldn't afford time for a seriously
detailed look, but it is due to your negative positioning, I think.
Here's a quick fix (hack)
* html #topmenu {
margin: 2px 0 1px;
top: 0;
}
Of course, then you'll have to rearrange your margins for the following
content similarly, so you may not choose to use it. It should be a good
start for working out the source of the problem, though
Sorry I couldn't help more
Cheers,
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Sheri German wrote: Just remember to add a link to download the free QT plugin, and you'll be good to go. But then you get folks like me who refuse to install QT because it is annoying (although not quite as bad as RealPlayer). If I come across a site that only uses .mov files, I simply leave. I don't know what the figures are on people with those kind of preferences. I don't suppose there are very many of us, but I know a few I've never had to provide video online, but surely you can just use one of the generic video file types that every player recognises? Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Lachlan Hardy wrote: I've never had to provide video online, but surely you can just use one of the generic video file types that every player recognises? I just knew that was going to get me in trouble... Unless I'm mistaken, there are many video players that can play MOV files (just as it's not just MS' Media Player that can play AVI). What generic video file types do you mean? I could only think of MPEG, off the top of my head... I had thought of that, AVI and AU I'm bound to get shot down by someone who has actually done this in practice, but I did some quick research anyway Apparently every version of Windows Media Player from WMP7 will play .mov files [1], except that they is not associated with the player by default. Nor are they listed in the File Types menu. In fact I can't find any indication of compatibility. However I just checked and it works with .mov files, and .qt files as well. Makes me feel a tad silly about missing all those downloads for the last few years It also plays .au, .snd, .mpg, .mpeg and .ivf (and other lesser known video types, and of course the WM family) I didn't download QT for testing (seriously, register to download? As if) but I scoured their site. The best info I could get was here [2]. So, common video file types playable in both Windows Media Player and QuickTime Player are .au, .avi, .mpeg, .mov, .qt (NOTE: these are only video file types. I haven't compared audio types) Apple do not specify any compatibility with any of the WM family. I remember reading somewhere that QT doesn't play .wmv files etc. Most of you can probably check that pretty easily yourself Of course, then it depends whether you are downloading the files or playing them in the browser. Because I still can't play .mov files via the browser as I don't have the correct plugin Hope that helpful to someone Cheers, Lachlan [1] http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q316992 [2] http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/qt/specifications.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?
Seona Bellamy wrote: * On pages like About Us and Contact Details, the centre banner apparently stays stuck at the top of the screen (i.e., the content of the page disappears under it as you scroll, and it's always on screen). Does anyone else get this problem? I don't. More importantly, if anyone else does, how do I make it stay in place? * If you browse the catalogue, sometimes the product listings don't come up straight away. The page loads, finishes loading, and expands to its required height, but the content doesn't show up until you roll your mouse over a link. Then it magically pops into view. I only get this problem sometimes, they apparently get it all the time, and I can't figure out why it's happening. * In the View Details page for any of the products, there should be an Enquire Now button. It's there on mine. It's not there on the client's. They don't believe that it's really there at all, in spite of the fact that I can look in the code and see it. G'day Seona I'm afraid that I can't replicate any of the problems at all. I've used Firefox 0.92, IE6, Netscape 7.1, Opera 7.23 on WinXP (with all the latest patches bar SP2) and Safari 1.2 on OSX However, the latter problem in particular sounds like a caching problem, either on the client's personal system or on their (or their ISP's) proxy server. The other two could potentially be something to do with the clients' settings, whether OS, browser or network If at all possible, I suggest investigating the problems from the client's computer since you are unable to replicate them yourself. Get the client to show you themselves. Then (if you haven't spotted a problem yet) use their computer yourselves to try replication. If you can replicate, then chase down the problem from there Sorry I couldn't help more Cheers, Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Accessability, SEO, Bookmarking - mod_rewrite
Lee Roberts wrote: That is what I use. Of course the directories and filenames are different, but you get the idea. I often just use a base tag. http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_base.asp Although, I very rarely see other people use it. Since it has come up, why don't folks use this tag? Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Web Accessability, SEO, Bookmarking - mod_rewrite
Neerav wrote: If you use a base tag than you cant run a local mirror of sites for testing. Eg: I run Apache/PHP/MySQL etc on my pc to make sure everything is running fine before I upload to the clients FTP server Sure, you can. I just generate the base tag I was thinking there must be some other reason folks don't use them, but I can see that this is getting off-topic so I'll shut up now * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Web Accessability, SEO, Bookmarking - mod_rewrite
Kay Smoljak wrote: I use the base tag for my Fusebox/ColdFusion sites, which use SES (search engine safe) style URLS - ie, the urls are in the format www.example.com/foo/bar/ rather than www.example.com?foo=bar. In this situation, the relative links no longer make sense, which is where the base tag comes into play. That's precisely what I use it for I've never used leading slashes. Maybe it is a web server difference though, seeing as I use IIS - which gives me virtual directories - hence the leading slash won't work on my local machine * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] technique of converting to tablefree layout
Lea de Groot wrote: What are people's preferred techniques for 'screen scraping' existing sites to get the text from a tag-soup table layout? When a page has copious links and such, simply copying the text from the browser doesn't always give enough content to be a useful quick method. I do the same as Patrick. The regular expressions in DWMX 2004 are really powerful - once you work out what you're doing. The Find Replace is the sole reason I use DW over any other text editor - given that I handcode only Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Comment syntax in external javascript files?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: script type=text/javascript src=thing.js/script I do it as per Dan's example above. It validates as XHTML 1.0 Strict and I haven't identified any problems with it Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report
Sean Corfield wrote: Question to Peter - is the city/state level membership information available in aggregate so we can figure out what might work for regional US meetings? Well, I wouldn't dare speak for Peter, but the member location list he indicated previously in this discussion - http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_view.cfm? - is ordered from right to left. Therefore everyone is grouped according to country, then state, and then city For example, there are around 30 members in California - 4 listed in San Diego, 3 in LA, 3 in Sacramento, 3 in San Francisco and various others. So if, as someone suggested (Peter again?), everyone were to put the closest major city they are willing to attend a meeting at, those numbers might increase a bit Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards
Hill, Tim wrote: http://www.onetruefit.com/ - Lee Jeans, and an interview with the design guy http://www.webstandards.org/learn/interviews/rcarver/ His company has more in the portfolio section as well. http://www.lookandfeel.com/ After reading that interview, I'm a bit dark on this... Carver indicates that he did all the coding and programming himself. I find it interesting that neither he nor the interviewer make mention of the product catalogue, which is written in ASP rather than PHP (like the rest of the site) and uses tables for layout What, so we just ignore that bit? It is a product catalogue and they're kind of complicated, so we'll leave that in the tabled layout that the shopping component we bought uses for a template? I'm probably out of line here. I'm sure he had all sorts of restrictions that meant that sorting that out would put him out of time or budget or something. I would have accepted all of those things as possibilities if only he'd mentioned it in the final question. If he'd said, Gee, I wish I could have standardised the output from that catalogue component, but... I've done similar work myself in the past, and I know it sucks. Surely that's why it should have been mentioned? I think that glossing over the tricky bits is hardly likely to help convert the stubborn non-standards designers out there. Even if it slipped Carver's mind, the WASP interviewer should have brought it up I believe that as advocates of a system, we should address that system's problem areas as frequently as possible Anyone agree with my mid-morning rant? What do y'all think? Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Disapearing list in Firefox 0.9
CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh wrote: I have just put the test page on a web server. The URL is: http://www.rba.gov.au/BC_Test/overview.jsp As indicated by both Mordechai and Ben, you should really validate your code before asking for help. It is an easy, automated way of pointing out potential bug sources In this case, you have given two elements the id of nav. This does not comply with the W3C specs. 'id' is only to be used once on each page, whereas 'class' may be used repeatedly (or only once). The problem with your initial testing having been done in IE is that IE incorrectly allows multiple IDs. Try Firefox 0.9 or another compliant browser as your main testing browser and refer back to others (such as IE) for bug testing I suggest that you follow these links and correct all errors (not too many, actually) to see if that fixes your problem : http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//www.rba.gov.au/BC_Test/overview.jsp http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2warning=2uri=http%3A//www.rba.gov.au/BC_Test/overview.jsp Oh, and I also noticed that you use 'Ul' in your CSS code. Firefox (and I think, many other browsers) are case-sensitive. As such, 'Ul' is different to 'ul'. This may also cause you some trouble Hope that helps! Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Disapearing list in Firefox 0.9
My stupid, uncaffeinated self just wrote: 'id' is only to be used once on each page, whereas 'class' may be used repeatedly (or only once). Despite proof-reading it twice, I missed a major blunder : I was referring to each specific 'id', such as nav. Therefore the sentence should have read: Each 'id' is only to be used once on each page, whereas each 'class' may be used repeatedly (or only once). Ugh. I'm going for more coffee * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] xforms
Ted Drake wrote: Does anyone know where I can find some information on browser support for xforms and how to style them with css? I know the w3c has some information but my head starts spinning whenever I go to their pages. I found this site, but it doesn't mention support and styling. http://www.w3schools.com/xforms/xforms_intro.asp G'day Ted, This is the most comprehensive site I've found : http://xforms.dstc.edu.au/index.html It is relatively new, but has examples, tutorials and links to other articles. And I loving promoting Australian knowledge! I couldn't find any specific points addressing browser support, though. It refers to a plug-in... Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Importing hacks into CSS? Whats the point?
Tim Lucas wrote: My compromise is to place all hacks for [insert your favourite buggy browser] into it's own CSS file. CSS hack techniques are forever changing. CSS fundamentals are set in stone. I'm with Mike on this. I don't see a benefit. In fact, when I read the article it looked like more work to me : 1. Hacks in main CSS file - Hack gets outdated, edit CSS file and remove hack 2. Hacks in separate CSS file - Hack gets outdated, edit CSS file and remove import, then delete separate hack file There is an extra step. No huge difference, so I'd be willing to do it for a benefit, but I just don't see one. If (and I think this is what Mike was asking) anyone can demonstrate a potential benefit from this process, please enlighten me (us) Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Importing hacks into CSS? Whats the point?
Nick Gleitzman wrote: There may be an extra file involved, but I know which is faster... Hmmm... I guess it is a case of whatever works for the individual. I don't have a problem with running the search as I comment use of all hacks, so I just find 'hack' and I'm there... So the benefit is one of speed? Or segregation - keeping the clean code from the dirty nasty hacks? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] HTML, CSS and Mobiles
Chris Stratford wrote: So its incorrectly loading the media for SCREEN... and wont load CSS from one method either... the @import seems not to work... This is fairly typical of small-screen devices. Since most web developers don't use CSS properly yet, and many of those who do don't create handheld CSS, browser developers for small-screen devices have had to work out hacks to attempt to make the site conform to their requirements That's probably not clarifying matters, but I've only had one coffee today so I won't be firing on all cylinders yet... Anyway, read this : http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/04/12/index4a.html It taught me everything I ever needed to know about small-screen dev Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] new window losing it's anchor place
Phillips, Wendy wrote: The page that opens in the new window has a number of anchor links - this is just one of them. I've tried changing to different anchors and the same problem occurs, unless it is the last anchor on the page and there is no where else for the window to shift to. I can only presume it's something to do with the window refreshing itself when it is resized? Yep. More to the point, the page does NOT refresh when the window is resized. Why? Because there is no link between the state of the page and the state of the browser window. So you'll have to create one Since you're already using JS, you can probably figure something out with that. Now I'm no JS-head, but I reckon something like this might do the trick : body onResize=location.reload(); Stuffed if I know how standards-compliant that is, though (seeing as I avoid JS like the plague!) Good luck! Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] legal requirements for accessability
What about all the redesigns that I don't get because I insist on at least attempting to increase accessibility? What about all the bidding wars I lose because I'm going to take that little bit longer? My clients expect total revision of a page according to some obscence specs to take 20 minutes flat. They struggle when I tell them it'll take a few hours or a day (or whatever). If I tell them that what they want is inaccessible, they'll simply find someone who doesn't care I don't know what kind of world the rest of you live in, but my clients are NOT interested in the website as a specific form of media that has its own rules and regulations. They've never even heard of websites like that. They get a website so they can tell people that they have one. They don't expect anyone to actually use it, and anything which adds to the cost, time or hassle of dealing with someone to organise their public statement of being an important enough business to have a website is something to be discarded and dismissed So, please, folks, while we're here : How do you get your clients to care about accessibility? Are you dealing with folks large enough that they actually consider the chance that they might be sued, or do they actually care if people can use their site? The same goes for standards, actually. I understand the concept of just doing it. And that's what I do. Until the client asks about such and such and I let slip either of those cursed words : 'standards' or 'accessibility'. Whoa. Reign in there, fella! Who told you to go around doing things like this? How much is that costing me? Every time I have quoted for a job by mentioning standards or accessibility, my quote has been rejected. If I don't mention it in the quote and it comes up later, I'm royally stuffed I may be drifting off the thread here. Hell, I may have cut it! But I feel the point is pertinent : my clients don't care about the legalities, and if I try to push the point, they are no longer my client So, how do the rest of you deal with this? - Original Message - From: Lea de Groot I don't get it - who's ignoring them? You design the page to be accessible and if the client asks for changes that would make it inaccessible (and you really, really cant think of a way to do them 'properly') explain to him why its illegal for you to do that. But I think it would be pretty rare to get something like that. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] legal requirements for accessability (bringing clients to the table)
Thanks folks for the great responses. I will certainly incorporate some of the things you've mentioned into my business behaviours from now on However, it seems fairly apparent that none of you have encountered the problems I'm talking about (except Marc, I think). Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The kind of clients I get are clients who think this is a great site : www.canadianlakes.com.au And it does look quite nice. Pity about the fact that it still isn't indexed by Google after it has been up for around two years. And you folks can easily spot all the other problems such as the poor navigation, table layout, and the fact that many pages have no text on them whatsoever. They don't even use CSS to colour fonts or links (but who needs to when you can use yet another image?). A year ago, that site had no text at all If you still don't know what I'm talking about; if you've never encountered this, don't trouble yourselves. You're lucky Mike Kear says It's my opinion that if you are losing business because you are quoting on standards-compliant sites, then you're doing it all wrong. Standards compliance should give you a competitive advantage over the other mugs who haven't learned about standards yet. I totally agree with you, Mike, which is why I adopted standards and attempt to provide accessibility. Unfortunately, it is not working for me. So, what do you do? Thanks again, folks Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG]
What the others have mentioned is, of course, pertinent. The following should also help : The law concerned is the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) of 1992. HREOC (Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission) has some good documentation explaining it all. Your best starting point is probably here : http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html And to sum up the relevance : all websites created, owned or hosted in Australia must comply to the DDA. You, as the creator/developer/designer, bear as much responsibility as your client. So, you can be held just as liable by the courts as the site owner - your biggest problem will be convincing your clients to give a damn... Cheers, Lachlan Original Message: - From: Taco Fleur Are there currently any laws in Australia that dictate a website should be accessible to vision impaired people etc.? If so, to what websites does it apply and has anyone taken any websites to court over not being accessible? What I could find so far only the following: - http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Articles%202000/SportsBriefs904.htm Are there any links to what standards certain websites need to apply? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG]
To be honest, I'm not sure. I would guess that it would depend on the court at the time. The only solution I see is making clients sign a form indicating that you have explained their responsibilities to them, that they refuse to honour said responsibilities and that you are completely blameless in regard to such responsibilities If any of your clients will sign something like that, have you got any spares? Because I'll take them Oh, and for all the hobbyists out there, it is also indicated that the DDA applies to all and any services provided on the Internet (in Australia). That means that payment is irrelevant. Technically, if you provide a favour to a mate via the Internet , you are responsible for the accessibility Basically, we are still lucky at this stage, because many ppl with such disabilities don't use the net. Or if they do, they expect to encounter difficulties. However, the use is rapidly increasing. And will continue to do so, as so many institutions are placing such an emphasis on their websites through deals like reduced fees for internet banking and discounts on cars purchased online etc. As that number increases, you and your clients are more likely to receive complaints The law is already in place, as is the precedent, which means that such complaints cannot be ignored. If someone chooses to make a fuss about the fact that they can't order a pair of socks from your darning website because they are vision impaired, then they have all the power they need to put you in hot water - Original Message - From: Taco Fleur Thats an interesting one, would I even be liable if I pointed out all these issues? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Is a degree necessary?
Gabriel, You're over halfway through an 18 month course. Finish it. You may no longer learn anything of any technical benefit for your plans for future, but a qualification is invaluable in life due to the absurd rules by which society judges your worth. I have a few qualifications that I figure aren't worth the paper they were printed on, but you can bet that I know where to find those pieces of paper if someone asks me. Do the work necessary to pass (who knows, that information may come in useful later) and spend the rest of your time focusing on what you care about. Which, hopefully, is web standards compliant stuff! Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
That site is admittedly terrible. It has no navigation on the frontpage in Firefox for Win either However, it is not indicative of all Australian government sites. I recently discovered http://www.immi.gov.au when a client cited its previous design (it has been redesigned to conform with the new system that seems to be going into place) as brilliant, unreal and just how I want my site to look. So, I took a look, I was horrified by the navy blue buttons on a deep red background and other similar shockers, but I persevered to discover that the entire site validated XHTML 1.0 Strict (well, the homepage and two or three others I tested. All three CSS files validated as well. The only problem I had with the site were the terrible flyout Javascript menus Having visited again (just to check) before telling you folks, I found a redesign which looks significantly better. This time around it is one error short of passing XHTML 1.0 Strict and both CSS files pass. It still has the horrible JS though http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.immi.gov.au/ http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.immi.gov.au/includes/styles/flyout.css http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.immi.gov.au/includes/styles/homepage.css Still, it is nice to know that someone out there is trying! Cheers, Lachlan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Aligning two DIVs horizontally
I thought this would be simple but it's making me feel a bit useless!
I'm simply trying to align two DIVs horizontally for the Search form :
http://www.streetdaddy.com/wsg/test.html
http://www.streetdaddy.com/wsg/domainname.css
The div with submit button (green border) always gets stacked
vertically
under the div with the textfield (red border) but I want it to be
aligned with the textfield and select list. I originally had
the whole
form in one div however differences in the size of form elements made
some small pixel differences between browsers. Pixel perfect isn't
necessary, however I'm sure there must be a simple way to
align the two
divs!
Am I even close?
Yep. Basically, just remove the margin and float #field
#field {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
float:left;
border: 1px solid #F00;
height: 25px;
}
#submit {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
float:right;
border: 1px solid #0F0;
height: 25px;
}
As suggested by Tim Hall, I also made the divs the same height. Then all you
need to do is centre your #submit image vertically (I didn't bother messing
with your HTML, but you can obviously do that fairly easily)
And, because floating both divs removes them from the document flow, you
need to add some height to your #search div
#search {
background: url(images/search_bar_bg.gif) #009A00 repeat-y top left;
margin: 0;
padding: 14px 0 14px 40px;
height: 30px;
}
My fiddling was done via the EditCSS plug-in for Firefox, so results may
differ for other browsers
Cheers,
Lachlan
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
Re: [WSG] A discussion leads to an idea - Dynamic CSS!
Then an interesting idea hit the table, what is to prevent a person from creating a dynamic stylesheet. Has anyone ever toyed with this idea before and if so what were the results??? I use code to rewrite my CSS. That way a site admin can choose a different option for layout or colours or whatever. The code rewrites the relevant CSS file(s) and the site changes as per the admin's intent. Whilst it is a limited system, the benefits are good and it doesn't have any of the downsides that others have mentioned so far. Works well for me! Cheers, Lachlan Hardy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Firefox 0.8 bug?
G'day Justin (again) I don't get that error with either of the sites you gave links for (and given I read both, I'm sure I would have noticed at some point). I'm using Firebird 0.8 on Win XP as well. Unfortunately I'm only on my laptop at present, so I only have access to 800 x 600 and 1024 x 768. However, both sites appeared perfectly centered on my screen when I tested them just now, and have (as far as I can recall) appeared perfectly centered on all previous occasions Unfortunately, this is not a problem that I've encountered before, so I have no solution for you. Other than I would suggest it is not solely a browser-specific problem... Cheers, Lachlan Hardy - At 1280 x 1024, the layouts are perfectly centred with no problems. - At 1024 x 768, the layouts are a *little* off-centre to the right. - At 800 x 600, the layouts are a *lot* off-centre to the right, with content disappearing off the right side -- and worse still, no scroll bars are enabled to allow me to view the missing content. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Centering one box in the center of the page with a footer attached
I wanted to do something similar - check this out : http://nakijo.vna.com.au Hope that helps - Original Message - From: theGrafixGuy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 8:31 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering one box in the center of the page with a footer attached I have gotten the background image part figured out (Kudos to Jeremy for the assist). So now I am down to centering a box fluidly on the page so that its content will display over the centered baackground regardless of screen size and the footer will be relative to the bottom of the content box. Simple things get so hard sometime :-) Brian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
