[WSG] title attribute and semantic data
In some blog machines/engines/themes, title attribute usually has the same text as in anchor link. Eg. in post title with rel=bookmark. Redundant information, based on Web accessibility point of view. But http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html, Semantic Data Extractor tool built by W3C needs the title information for the bookmarkable points. So, is there a way to make it accessible and semantic properly? -- Regards, Dani Iswara http://daniiswara.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] title attribute and semantic data
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Dani Iswara daniisw...@gmail.com wrote: In some blog machines/engines/themes, title attribute usually has the same text as in anchor link. Eg. in post title with rel=bookmark. Redundant information, based on Web accessibility point of view. But http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html, Semantic Data Extractor tool built by W3C needs the title information for the bookmarkable points. So, is there a way to make it accessible and semantic properly? Short answer: omit redundant title attributes. The W3C hosts some formal standards endorsed by its membership (Recommendations). But they also host a load of tools and documents that have no special formal status. This tool is one of those. I think you are being misled by a bad user interface decision on the part of whomever built the tool. When the tool says [Unknown title], I suspect it is telling you that you have not added a title attribute to the link, not that you /must/ or even /should/ add a title to the link. If the developer *did* mean to tell you to add the attribute, then they were wrong and trumped both by your users' needs (which should always come first) and also by the formal Recommendations that tell you how to use the title attribute. The W3C HTML 4.01 Recommendation is clear: title provides advisory information about the element for which it is set: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#adef-title If you don't have any useful advisory information to add, then title should be omitted or empty (title=''). In fact, because of the usability problems with common implementations of title, even if you do have useful advisory information, it may not be the best place to put it. http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=37 -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] title attribute and semantic data
Benjamin, I do agree with the redundancy of title attribute and its device/mouse dependant--not fully accessible. -- Regards, Dani Iswara http://daniiswara.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute
Let me see if I am understanding correctly. The Title attribute is not needed any more. As long as links are in simple language and their is a description of a photo and/or graphic on the side or top and bottom. Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http://www.infoforce-services.com Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into the light. - Helen Keller *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute
Hi Jens
Actually, using the 'title' attribute in a link does NOT add a little
bit of SEO. Title element ('Page Title') - yes for SEO - but title
attribute - no.
Try it yourself. Put a few words in a title attribute - words which
don't otherwise appear on your page. The once Google has re-indexed
the page, (look at the date in the Google cache); then search your
sitein Google for the words you included in the title attribute.
Here's an example. The words Australian DDA appear in a title
element of a link on http://www.cogentis.com.au/ but no where else on
that page, i.e. only here:
a href=website-accessibility-issues.html title=More information on
the Australian DDA and web accessibility issuesWeb accessibility
issues/a
But a search in Google will not return this page.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=enq=site%3Acogentis.com.au+Australian+DDAbtnG=Google+Searchmeta=cr%3DcountryAU
It only returns another page on the site which does have those words
on the page.
Google won't find them, because it doesn't index them; just like
Google doesn't index the content of e.g. meta name =keywords field.
Chris
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Jens-Uwe Korff
jko...@fairfaxdigital.com.au wrote:
I was wondering how valuable the Title attribute is
Use the 'title' attribute when the link text needs to be short and
doesn't convey all a user needs to know, eg. a href=... title=Latest
News from InTheSticksLocal news/a. In this case you also add a bit
of SEO.
I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
pick up the anchor text well.
Cheers,
Jens
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Re: [WSG] Title attribute
Hello,
The title attribute is especially useful if you need to explain the
content of a page to your visitor and your link text is not so
meaningful. I would advise that you attempt to use meaningful text in
your links. It might be a good idea to change the structure of your
sentence so that meaningful text can be used for linking.
You can read up on good link architecture here:
http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/10/importance-of-link-architecture.html
Regards,
Anthony.
Chris Dimmock wrote:
Hi Jens
Actually, using the 'title' attribute in a link does NOT add a little
bit of SEO. Title element ('Page Title') - yes for SEO - but title
attribute - no.
Try it yourself. Put a few words in a title attribute - words which
don't otherwise appear on your page. The once Google has re-indexed
the page, (look at the date in the Google cache); then search your
sitein Google for the words you included in the title attribute.
Here's an example. The words "Australian DDA" appear in a title
element of a link on http://www.cogentis.com.au/ but no where else on
that page, i.e. only here:
a href="" title="More information on
the Australian DDA and web accessibility issues"Web accessibility
issues/a
But a search in Google will not return this page.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=enq=site%3Acogentis.com.au+Australian+DDAbtnG=Google+Searchmeta=cr%3DcountryAU
It only returns another page on the site which does have those words
on the page.
Google won't find them, because it doesn't index them; just like
Google doesn't index the content of e.g. meta name ="keywords" field.
Chris
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Jens-Uwe Korff
jko...@fairfaxdigital.com.au wrote:
I was wondering how valuable the Title attribute is
Use the 'title' attribute when the link text needs to be short and
doesn't convey all a user needs to know, eg. a href="" title="Latest
News from InTheSticks"Local news/a. In this case you also add a bit
of SEO.
I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
pick up the anchor text well.
Cheers,
Jens
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[WSG] Title attribute
I was wondering how valuible th Title attribute is. I just visited http://www.google.com/analytics/ and see they do not use a href= title=/a and the new code I uploaded for an international nonprofit. Apperantly this code I uploaded is HTML and cSS valid. I was taught to do a href= title=/a. Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http://www.infoforce-services.com Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into the light. - Helen Keller *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Title attribute
I was wondering how valuable the Title attribute is Use the 'title' attribute when the link text needs to be short and doesn't convey all a user needs to know, eg. a href=... title=Latest News from InTheSticksLocal news/a. In this case you also add a bit of SEO. I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually pick up the anchor text well. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute
On 12/1/09 00:00, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually pick up the anchor text well. http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/ is a very useful discussion of the TITLE attribute from an accessibility perspective. I think the destination of a link is best made clear by the link text. TITLE attributes are useful to provide tooltip text for icons however. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute
Jens I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually pick up the anchor text well. Anchor text? What is anchor text? I thought the Title attribute was the anchor text. Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http://www.infoforce-services.com Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into the light. - Helen Keller *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute
On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Hayden's Harness Attachment vig...@gmail.com wrote: Jens I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually pick up the anchor text well. Anchor text? What is anchor text? I thought the Title attribute was the anchor text. a href=...THIS is the anchor text/a -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute
Just another note: EVERY element has a title attribute, not just the anchor attribute. Title is one of those basic properties like id and name. It doesn't have any unique use for any specific element, it just allows you to provide a bit more information for the element (which is usually displayed when the user mouses over the element). -- Christian Snodgrass CEO - Azure Ronin http://www.arwebdesign.net http://www.htmlblox.com Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute
Christian Snodgrass wrote: Just another note: EVERY element has a title attribute Uh, not exactly, at least according to http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Thanks everyone for your replys. Cheers :) Rebecca On 10/25/07, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use keyboard controls a lot too, and generally regard the use of tabindex as a sign that a site was not designed properly in the first place. It causes a number of problems such as being unable to predict where the focus is going to go next. How can the designer predict what the user will want to do except in really trivial cases such as Google's home page? It can be utterly baffling for screen reader users because the sequence of elements is different in 'forms' mode (where tabindex is followed) and 'virtual cursor' mode (where it cannot be followed). I saw this recently in a user test on a site that sadly has to remain nameless because we are under an NDA (it only went live this year and they didn't fix it). Can you provide any examples of sites that use tabindex well? Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: 24 October 2007 20:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Personally, I often still use the keyboard because I'm fast with it. And I really like good tabindexes. Why do you think they are useless? Regards, Rogier. On 24/10/2007, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all? Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :) Need acknowledge from your accessible mastero :-) tee Great addition Tee, not everybody is a native english speaker :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Hi all, I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour screen readers, especially where used on site global navigation. As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site (i.e., not just on the home page). For example, About e-govt in the left nav has: a href=http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt; span title=E-government enables people to use digital technology to find and use New Zealand government information and services.About e-govt/span /a Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of title attribute text is enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it is encountered, or can you skip over it? In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any difference? (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services - some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.) Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it disabled... Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works! Cheers, Rebecca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Hi Rebecca, announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader users. On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour screen readers, especially where used on site global navigation. As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site (i.e., not just on the home page). For example, About e-govt in the left nav has: a href=http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt; span title=E-government enables people to use digital technology to find and use New Zealand government information and services.About e-govt/span /a Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of title attribute text is enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it is encountered, or can you skip over it? In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any difference? (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services - some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.) Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it disabled... Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works! Cheers, Rebecca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Hi Steve, If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and values to hyperlinks? Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Faulkner Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Hi Rebecca, announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader users. On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour screen readers, especially where used on site global navigation. As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site (i.e., not just on the home page). For example, About e-govt in the left nav has: a href=http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt; span title=E-government enables people to use digital technology to find and use New Zealand government information and services.About e-govt/span /a Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of title attribute text is enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it is encountered, or can you skip over it? In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any difference? (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services - some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.) Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it disabled... Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works! Cheers, Rebecca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Frank Palinkas wrote: If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and values to hyperlinks? You can add them, but you must be aware that it's likely that screen reader users won't hear them by default. Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. You can add advisory/optional info in the title, but nothing that is critical to understanding what a link is/does. Most of the time, I find that it's better to ensure that the clearly visible link text is self-evident enough, and doing away with titles altogether. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Thanks Steven. Combined with Patrick's reply, and based on your experience and deep involvement with accessibility, this is indeed excellent, practical advice. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Faulkner Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 12:17 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Hi Frank, I would suggest that if you want the information available to screen reader users or keyboard only users (as title attribute content is not available to keyboard users), then don't place it in the title attribute on links. On 24/10/2007, Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve, If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and values to hyperlinks? Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Faulkner Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Hi Rebecca, announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader users. On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour screen readers, especially where used on site global navigation. As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site (i.e., not just on the home page). For example, About e-govt in the left nav has: a href=http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt; span title=E-government enables people to use digital technology to find and use New Zealand government information and services.About e-govt/span /a Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of title attribute text is enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it is encountered, or can you skip over it? In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any difference? (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services - some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.) Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it disabled... Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works! Cheers, Rebecca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Hi Frank, I would suggest that if you want the information available to screen reader users or keyboard only users (as title attribute content is not available to keyboard users), then don't place it in the title attribute on links. On 24/10/2007, Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve, If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and values to hyperlinks? Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Faulkner Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Hi Rebecca, announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader users. On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour screen readers, especially where used on site global navigation. As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site (i.e., not just on the home page). For example, About e-govt in the left nav has: a href=http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt; span title=E-government enables people to use digital technology to find and use New Zealand government information and services.About e-govt/span /a Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of title attribute text is enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it is encountered, or can you skip over it? In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any difference? (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services - some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.) Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it disabled... Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works! Cheers, Rebecca *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. If they use IE. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. If they use IE. although users of firefox can access the title attribute via the keyboard, there is no way for them to know that there is a title there to be queried, unlike mouse users who are presented with the title as a tooltp when they mouse over a link (or any other element). So effectively they will never be seen. Also there is no method that I know of to access the title attribute content in other browser (Opera etc) On 24/10/2007, Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. If they use IE. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Chris Price wrote: Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. If they use IE. Or Firefox, or Safari, or Opera, ... Try tabbing to a link with a title via keyboard, and tell me if it brings up a tooltip or similar to let a sighted user read the title... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
On Oct 24, 2007, at 4:27 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Try tabbing to a link with a title via keyboard, and tell me if it brings up a tooltip or similar to let a sighted user read the title... So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all? Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :) tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all? Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :) Need acknowledge from your accessible mastero :-) tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Chris Price wrote: Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. If they use IE. Or Firefox, or Safari, or Opera, ... Try tabbing to a link with a title via keyboard, and tell me if it brings up a tooltip or similar to let a sighted user read the title... P I stand corrected. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Chris Price wrote: I stand corrected. You can sit as well, it's fine :) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
Personally, I often still use the keyboard because I'm fast with it. And I really like good tabindexes. Why do you think they are useless? Regards, Rogier. On 24/10/2007, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all? Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :) Need acknowledge from your accessible mastero :-) tee Great addition Tee, not everybody is a native english speaker :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
I use keyboard controls a lot too, and generally regard the use of tabindex as a sign that a site was not designed properly in the first place. It causes a number of problems such as being unable to predict where the focus is going to go next. How can the designer predict what the user will want to do except in really trivial cases such as Google's home page? It can be utterly baffling for screen reader users because the sequence of elements is different in 'forms' mode (where tabindex is followed) and 'virtual cursor' mode (where it cannot be followed). I saw this recently in a user test on a site that sadly has to remain nameless because we are under an NDA (it only went live this year and they didn't fix it). Can you provide any examples of sites that use tabindex well? Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: 24 October 2007 20:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers Personally, I often still use the keyboard because I'm fast with it. And I really like good tabindexes. Why do you think they are useless? Regards, Rogier. On 24/10/2007, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all? Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :) Need acknowledge from your accessible mastero :-) tee Great addition Tee, not everybody is a native english speaker :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Title Attribute
Hi, My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented. However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/ p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the flexibility of the title attribute? Respectfully, Christopher Kennon Principal Creative Director -Bushidodeep http://bushidodeep.com/ __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Title Attribute
On 1/19/06, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented. However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/ p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the flexibility of the title attribute? Well, the title attribute really can be used for anything, like p and ul and etc. But as far as I know, the only thing this adds is a little tooltip popup of the title in some browsers. This isn't really useful, it works like you often see with acronym tags, and it isn't used by most screen readers or other non-visual devices. You can use javascript to make cool popups that use the title attribute [1], but nothing beats contextual information. [1] much like you see at http://dustindiaz.com/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Title Attribute
The flexibility of the title attribute (as opposed to the title element) can be seen in the ever-exciting W3 technical reports. Two places that are always a great read, and full of surprises are the List of attributes [1] and List of elements [2]. The list of attributes shows the title and has info beside it saying its related elements are: All elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT, TITLE Before getting too excited though, an essential read on this topic is Steve Faulkners The Trouble with the Title attribute [3]. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html [3] http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/ Thanks Russ Hi, My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented. However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/ p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the flexibility of the title attribute? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Title Attribute
Thanks, The impression I'm getting from the replies today are title as an attribute, has inconsistent interpretation by most UA's. However, as an element it is essential to the document. Is this interpretation correct? Respectfully, Christopher Kennon Principal Creative Director -Bushidodeep www.bushidodeep.com ___ An ideal is merely the projection, on an enormously enlarged scale, of some aspect of personality. -- Aldus Huxley On Jan 19, 2006, at 1:42 PM, russ - maxdesign wrote: The flexibility of the title attribute (as opposed to the title element) can be seen in the ever-exciting W3 technical reports. Two places that are always a great read, and full of surprises are the List of attributes [1] and List of elements [2]. The list of attributes shows the title and has info beside it saying its related elements are: All elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT, TITLE Before getting too excited though, an essential read on this topic is Steve Faulkners The Trouble with the Title attribute [3]. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html [3] http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/ Thanks Russ Hi, My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented. However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/ p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the flexibility of the title attribute? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Title Attribute
The impression I'm getting from the replies today are title as an attribute, has inconsistent interpretation by most UA's. However, as an element it is essential to the document. Is this interpretation correct? Steve's article would back up your comment that the title attribute is inconsistently interpreted by a range of UAs. The title element is essential in order to create a valid HTML4.01 or XHTML 1.0 document (not sure about HTML3.2 or earlier). You can test this yourself by uploading a file with and without a title then validating it. Hours of fun! Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
