Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth Hi Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/ Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little http fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known as AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash. For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG backgrounds in Opera 9.5) Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) its all to easy to end up a blind alley with flash also flash often allowed designers to ensure cross platform display Opera 9.5 looks great - very slick and dragonfly will be amazingly advantageous :) 2008/5/7 James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth Hi Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/ Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little http fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known as AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash. For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG backgrounds in Opera 9.5) Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites. intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly *must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it) animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users! (what about people on slow machines?) whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to download before they can see anything! ... this is so obviously bad you'd think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there - split it up into smaller files and give people something more interesting or useful to look at than loading... within a few seconds! (even on a slow dial-up modem!) - text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to be locked down) - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste. eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or address to their contact list? - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they haven't got it wrong? probably not! well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as html? flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as a *replacement* for html or text! also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
iPhone can do better does'nt support flash :) 2008/5/7 Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED]: some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites. intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly *must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it) animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users! (what about people on slow machines?) whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to download before they can see anything! ... this is so obviously bad you'd think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there - split it up into smaller files and give people something more interesting or useful to look at than loading... within a few seconds! (even on a slow dial-up modem!) - text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to be locked down) - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste. eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or address to their contact list? - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they haven't got it wrong? probably not! well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as html? flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as a *replacement* for html or text! also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Only resort to flash if what you want is impossible with plain old html and some javascript thrown in. And if you use flash, make sure there's an alternative. I think this page: http://www.schiphol.nl/toekomst/ ...is a good example of just that. Just turn off javascript and see what happens. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On 2008/05/05 23:15 (GMT+0300) Michael Persson apparently typed: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? OK for people whose priorities lie in form rather than substance, but generally no small impediment for many others. Flash players do not exist for every GUI web browsing environment, and AFAIK, they exist for no text-only browsing environment. The exclusivity means lockout, both to real users, and search bots. where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? As a practical matter, non-existent. As long as Flash content ignores browser default text size (same as CSS px font sizing) and text zoom (worse than CSS px font sizing), it locks out the many people who can't read its virtually universal mousetype or make sense of its itty bitty images. Flash is functionally a synonym for content-free for an arbitrarily large number of people, sighted users with low vision (or even average vision) and/or using high resolution displays. -- . . . . in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you . . . . Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On May 7, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote: people think it doesn’t matter what a site looks like as long as it is accessible. Sadly true. But in fact what a site looks like can have a huge impact on its accessibility. I think that notion stems from a rather misplaced notion that somehow accessible equates to no more than can be clearly interpreted by a screen reader. Good design will enhance accessibility for all. To make an extreme analogy: imagine a building whose entrance offers a wheelchair ramp, which is reserved exclusively for wheelchair-bound visitors, while all others are obliged to scale a rock-climbing wall. This may meet the letter of the law in regard to disabled access, but would anyone in their right mind describe this as an accessible building? Which may stray a little from the original point. My take on Flash is that it can offer useful enhancements to a site (though as many have pointed out, there's often a viable alternative using the standard tools of the trade), but fall-backs must be available. As for full- Flash sites, nothing gets me to my back button quicker than a page that arrives with a cute little Site Loading animation... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
As i started this thred i will also close it and sum the results. I find that we, professionals on wen development are mostly negative to the full flash publishing and also have a attitide that standards are able to implement. What do we do when a client wants flash and dont really understand the neg or pos difficulties. Do we still want the money to produce their website or do we say no because we are web standard freaks and would never touch such a bad usability and accessibilty project dirty money hahaha.. Well would we...?? Content is king but i think also money is Queen or very closely related to the majesty also... Michael Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/05/05 23:15 (GMT+0300) Michael Persson apparently typed: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? OK for people whose priorities lie in form rather than substance, but generally no small impediment for many others. Flash players do not exist for every GUI web browsing environment, and AFAIK, they exist for no text-only browsing environment. The exclusivity means lockout, both to real users, and search bots. where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? As a practical matter, non-existent. As long as Flash content ignores browser default text size (same as CSS px font sizing) and text zoom (worse than CSS px font sizing), it locks out the many people who can't read its virtually universal mousetype or make sense of its itty bitty images. Flash is functionally a synonym for content-free for an arbitrarily large number of people, sighted users with low vision (or even average vision) and/or using high resolution displays. -- Michael Persson front-end developer seo *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Michael Persson wrote: Do we still want the money to produce their website or do we say no because we are web standard freaks and would never touch such a bad usability and accessibilty project dirty money hahaha.. Well would we...?? If all they want is eye candy give it to them and take the money surely. Just explain that its not going to do well in google and that a hybrid site would be better. Or mabye show him a cms that he can use with a hybrid site and that might get him fired up. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Full flash websites
Michael MD wrote: also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! Not to mention some corporate environments that are locked down. Ours has an older version of Flash as our standard, and there are a number of sites that won't display and we are invited to download the newer version - ha! Kerry --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Full flash websites
Yeah, I think we all are aware of these small problems and i have faced them also producing standard websites for a french company that had IE5.5 a a standard browser... haha We cant expect other non professionals to have the same settings, latest installations and technical experience as us. I resinstalled my work computer some months ago and I had a technical person to do this because we have a deal, Yes he installed all programs i needed and also IE7 ONLY!!!. Stupid me didnt made him understand i need IE6 to make websites for the most of the internet audience... I have now a cracked tripped IE6 that cant have flash installed and i am in need of another new installation again... just need to find the time... Web standards is not always standards for the audience and its dangerous to even think so... Mobile phones. hmmm it is exploding but wh is really making websites for these devices and arent we only technical freaks using them for internet... they are terrible to read and use for services... gmail is ok though, fast and looks ok.. I went out of the limits this morning but i think we have many things to learn about the users of our products online and from there is where we need to build our products... that shold be standards considered... Michael Persson Michael MD wrote: also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! Not to mention some corporate environments that are locked down. Ours has an older version of Flash as our standard, and there are a number of sites that won't display and we are invited to download the newer version - ha! Kerry --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
because users like Sven disable it by default No disrespect to Sven but that must be the pits to take the very long learning curve: Create the Flash: Then along comes 'A Visitor' and disable all your hard work..*doh Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://simplyborneo.com/gardenforums/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - From: Sam Sherlock To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash (because of it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable it by default and much more besides) The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal (things bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that improve the accessibility or user experience overall. others have made points about ensuring content is available to all. In a lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no flash format (server side scripting helps a great deal - not writing script srcs or codeblocks to the page [setting this in a user setting session var]) I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the swf displays, often with links to further info of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become unwieldy. admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full browser flash, but if the site is small and all the content is loaded in dynamically Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with traditional html - deep linking And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for, increasing the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) - there if a lot to bear in mind here also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson 5 pop sensation]) that does a real nice job in displaying all kinds of content lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this is what Ben Buchanan was refering to I think - http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html - S 2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time! Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and flash and so on ;) Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML; and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only offering Flash* is evil. -ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 06:01 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
yup, but then I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. If people like me are part of your audience, flash is pretty much unsuitable. That doesn't mean there aren't audiences for whom flash is the right answer, just that thought and analysis are needed to make sure your communication medium is appropriate to both your message and your audience. No different really from writing your web content in Latin :} sven kate wrote: because users like Sven disable it by default No disrespect to Sven but that must be the pits to take the very long learning curve: Create the Flash: Then along comes 'A Visitor' and disable all your hard work..*doh Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://simplyborneo.com/gardenforums/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - *From:* Sam Sherlock mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:13 AM *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Full flash websites As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash (because of it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable it by default and much more besides) The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal (things bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that improve the accessibility or user experience overall. others have made points about ensuring content is available to all. In a lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no flash format (server side scripting helps a great deal - not writing script srcs or codeblocks to the page [setting this in a user setting session var]) I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the swf displays, often with links to further info of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become unwieldy. admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full browser flash, but if the site is small and all the content is loaded in dynamically Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with traditional html - deep linking And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for, increasing the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) - there if a lot to bear in mind here also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson 5 pop sensation]) that does a real nice job in displaying all kinds of content lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this is what Ben Buchanan was refering to I think - http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html - S 2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time! Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and flash and so on ;) Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML; and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only offering Flash* is evil. -ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 06:01
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. thats how I see it too, content is king I myself often have javascript and flash diasabled, so long as the content is available to the audience. 2008/5/6 Sven Dowideit [EMAIL PROTECTED]: yup, but then I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. If people like me are part of your audience, flash is pretty much unsuitable. That doesn't mean there aren't audiences for whom flash is the right answer, just that thought and analysis are needed to make sure your communication medium is appropriate to both your message and your audience. No different really from writing your web content in Latin :} sven kate wrote: because users like Sven disable it by default No disrespect to Sven but that must be the pits to take the very long learning curve: Create the Flash: Then along comes 'A Visitor' and disable all your hard work..*doh Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://simplyborneo.com/gardenforums/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - *From:* Sam Sherlock mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:13 AM *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Full flash websites As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash (because of it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable it by default and much more besides) The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal (things bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that improve the accessibility or user experience overall. others have made points about ensuring content is available to all. In a lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no flash format (server side scripting helps a great deal - not writing script srcs or codeblocks to the page [setting this in a user setting session var]) I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the swf displays, often with links to further info of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become unwieldy. admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full browser flash, but if the site is small and all the content is loaded in dynamically Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with traditional html - deep linking And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for, increasing the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) - there if a lot to bear in mind here also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson 5 pop sensation]) that does a real nice job in displaying all kinds of content lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this is what Ben Buchanan was refering to I think - http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html - S 2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time! Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and flash and so on ;) Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML; and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only offering Flash* is evil. -ben ----- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I do think we also shouldn¹t forget that there are a lot of people out there who need to find a webpage attractive in order to make them stay and read the content. And some Flash(y) content can be useful/attractive. (Emphasis on can¹!) Some people (probably a lot) really like that sort of stuff ... :) - susie On 7/5/08 5:03 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. thats how I see it too, content is king I myself often have javascript and flash diasabled, so long as the content is available to the audience. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Using some unobstrusive js effects much the same (and or better) can be made without flash http://simonwillison.net/static/2008/xtech/ which advises making a standard site that functions with basic html and present it with css, and then add additional functionality not my own work but an example of the what I am talking about http://interiors.davroc.co.uk/ 2008/5/7 Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I do think we also shouldn't forget that there are a lot of people out there who need to find a webpage attractive in order to make them stay and read the content. And some Flash(y) content can be useful/attractive. (Emphasis on 'can'!) Some people (probably a lot) really like that sort of stuff ... :) - susie On 7/5/08 5:03 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. thats how I see it too, content is king I myself often have javascript and flash diasabled, so long as the content is available to the audience. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On 7/5/08 1:37 PM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Using some unobstrusive js effects much the same (and or better) can be made without flash http://simonwillison.net/static/2008/xtech/ which advises making a standard site that functions with basic html and present it with css, and then add additional functionality not my own work but an example of the what I am talking about http://interiors.davroc.co.uk/ That¹s a nice-looking site! I guess all I was trying to say is that Flash is here and developers will use it. I would never make a fully Flash website personally and I do think it¹s a bad idea. But an occasional little bit of Flash is another matter (imho), depending on the circumstances/requirements of the site and it¹s owner. Sometimes it sounds like people think it doesn¹t matter what a site looks like as long as it is accessible. But it does matter to the majority of people. I know that content is the ultimate thing, but if the site isn¹t presented in an attractive manner then a lot of (sighted) people won¹t stop to look. I personally would rarely bother looking at a site that had no styles and/or looked like a Word document or list or something. I don¹t think I¹m alone here! Most of us live in a visual world. So we want/expect/need to see attractive things. I am not for one second saying we shouldn¹t be making websites that are accessible and easy to use for everyone. But I don¹t see that this means that developers shouldn¹t use other technologies that may not be accessible to everyone, as long as the main content of the website is accessible by the users that the website is being developed for. I¹m going to stop before a hail of comments come my way! And I¹m going to try and refrain from extending this conversation ... grin - susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
kate wrote: No disrespect to Sven but that must be the pits to take the very long learning curve: Create the Flash: Then along comes 'A Visitor' and disable all your hard work..*doh Sorry? You're blaming A Visitor for not being able to obtain the information you are supposed to giving them? ::boggle:: [sigh] mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Full flash websites
Hi all I've yet to see a full flash website I liked - too often they use small fonts and poor contrast; navigation is quite often difficult. I understand that accessibility has been improved, but haven't really explored it (and of course just because the tools are now available doesn't mean that developers necessarily use them, any more than they do in HTML). It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate Sent: Tuesday, 6 May 2008 6:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites Hi, A forum I used to go to uesd to say some HTML and Flash. Maybe this site helps a little bit: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html Or: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/full_flash_websites_and_seo/ Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - From: Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: [WSG] Full flash websites The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 06:01 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
that timbuk2 is great. wholeheartedly agree about the small fonts and poor contrast though this is designers getting carried away with things, and pleasing their own egos often I get asked by clients to create a flash intro for a site, with cinematic ambitions they describe what they had in mind 'text slides in..', '...musical intro plays'- etc Sometimes it sounds like people think it doesn't matter what a site looks like as long as it is accessible. But it does matter to the majority of people. I know that content is the ultimate thing, but if the site isn't presented in an attractive manner then a lot of (sighted) people won't stop to look. I personally would rarely bother looking at a site that had no styles and/or looked like a Word document or list or something. I don't think I'm alone here! Most of us live in a visual world. So we want/expect/need to see attractive things. its about balance; and finding the right middle ground.This is project specific. I make every site with three groupings in mind 1. client 2. intended audience 3. maintainer of site (sometimes not me, sometimes client or employee of client using CMS) 2008/5/7 Elizabeth Spiegel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all I've yet to see a full flash website I liked - too often they use small fonts and poor contrast; navigation is quite often difficult. I understand that accessibility has been improved, but haven't really explored it (and of course just because the tools are now available doesn't mean that developers necessarily use them, any more than they do in HTML). It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate Sent: Tuesday, 6 May 2008 6:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites Hi, A forum I used to go to uesd to say some HTML and Flash. Maybe this site helps a little bit: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html Or: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/full_flash_websites_and_seo/ Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - From: Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: [WSG] Full flash websites The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 06:01 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Hi, A forum I used to go to uesd to say some HTML and Flash. Maybe this site helps a little bit: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html Or: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/full_flash_websites_and_seo/ Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - From: Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: [WSG] Full flash websites The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 06:01 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I've used flash sites that have been poorly done - confusing interfaces etc. Awful Experience. I've used flash sites that have been built well. Excellent experience. Accessible? Not really, but... If you're providing a fall-back HTML version you're covered. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael Persson wrote: The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;fax:886-301-8045 tel;home:609-886-9660 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Michael Persson wrote: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Hate 'em. I usually look in the footer for 'html/lite version' link. If there isn't one, i'll probably end up leaving a lot sooner. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Im a big fan of xhtml/flash hybrid sites myself. Usually I'll consider using flash for anything but links(usability reasons) and the body text ( for seo). But at the moment Im working on a design that uses flash for some links but its not necessary to use them. Heres an example of a typical hybrid-its still a work in progress. http://www.seaviewnightclub.com/friday *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
The look good but aren't standards. You pretty much hit the head on the problem. The same usability problems also give them a problem with being found by search engines. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Michael Persson wrote: The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I've not done any full Flash websites. For reasons of accessibility and the loss of browser navigational tools. But I have been playing with an idea; use XHTML as data source for the site instead of plain XML. That way you build a site with all the accessibility and features of HTML with Flash as a layer on top. - Original Message - From: Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites I've used flash sites that have been poorly done - confusing interfaces etc. Awful Experience. I've used flash sites that have been built well. Excellent experience. Accessible? Not really, but... If you're providing a fall-back HTML version you're covered. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael Persson wrote: The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I say avoid flash whenever possible. Sometimes, however, it isn't. I am just waiting for SVG to get more widely in use. That is going to be... awesome! Flash is good for use on sites on YouTube. Other things? Nah. HTML and JavaScript can easily replace flash in many many cases. Regards, Svip 2008/5/5 Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Full flash websites
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Persson Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 1:16 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Full flash websites The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. I heard Flash is not that bad as long as authors know what they are doing: http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/index.html -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time! Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and flash and so on ;) Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML; and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only offering Flash* is evil. -ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I disable flash on all of my browsers because its most commonly used for really really annoying advertisements. On the rare occasion that I want to go to some site that needs flash to work, i reluctantly turn it on. But I've not found one site of that type that I go back to - they contain too little content. I don't own a Wii either :) Sven Michael Persson wrote: The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Professional Wiki Innovation and Support Sven Dowideit - http://DistributedINFORMATION.com A WikiRing Partner http://wikiring.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash (because of it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable it by default and much more besides) The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal (things bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that improve the accessibility or user experience overall. others have made points about ensuring content is available to all. In a lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no flash format (server side scripting helps a great deal - not writing script srcs or codeblocks to the page [setting this in a user setting session var]) I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the swf displays, often with links to further info of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become unwieldy. admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full browser flash, but if the site is small and all the content is loaded in dynamically Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with traditional html - deep linking And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for, increasing the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) - there if a lot to bear in mind here also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson 5 pop sensation]) that does a real nice job in displaying all kinds of content lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this is what Ben Buchanan was refering to I think - http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html - S 2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time! Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and flash and so on ;) Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML; and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only offering Flash* is evil. -ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
