Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
El vie, 05-03-2004 a las 00:54, Hugh Todd escribió: Tonico, I need to support IE/Mac, so what would you recommend me to do? Did you have a look at this one, posted by Manuel González Noriega? It seems to work in IE 5 Mac, for whatever reason: http://kalsey.com/tools/csstabs/index.php?section=2 FWIW, yesterday we put kalsey's tabs to work at http://derallyes.com (homepage,top box) The site's in spanish, but that shouldn't make checking the tabs functionality any harder ;) Now, what we'd really like to have is to enhance the tabs for js enabled UA's by using js to swap the ul's visibility. Anyone has a pointer to some howto's/articles on this? I'm not that skilled at javascript... yet O:-) -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tonico, I guess they don't use lists for the top navigation because it is horizontal and they want to keep it simple. Well, why ever they did it, it's not an argument for or against lists, I think. (Also, they don't use subnavigations) You're right it's not an argument, just an example of a navigation that is not marked up as a list. Last night I've coded such a menu: http://www.webproducer.at/lab/nested-ul-tabs It works fine, except in IE/Mac. I have posted the issue to css-d but haven't received any reply so far. I need to support IE/Mac, so what would you recommend me to do? I don't know, where exaktly the problem is, because I'm not so experienced in horizontal menues. But your css is missing a width for the lis. Maybe it helps. Wow, you noted the missing width! You can't design a pixelprecise horizonal navigation with rounded corners where the items are as wide as its content with CSS, if you want to respect the standard. Can this be true? No, it's possible if you don't use floats: http://www.complexspiral.com/publications/rounding-tabs/ Yes, if you want to support most browsers. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Manuel González Noriega wrote: FWIW, yesterday we put kalsey's tabs to work at http://derallyes.com (homepage,top box) The site's in spanish, but that shouldn't make checking the tabs functionality any harder ;) Great work. Now, what we'd really like to have is to enhance the tabs for js enabled UA's by using js to swap the ul's visibility. Anyone has a pointer to some howto's/articles on this? I'm not that skilled at javascript... yet O:-) I would simply add, change or remove classnames with JavaScript. Check out http://www.quirksmode.org/ W3C Dom Tests Compatibility HTML HTH Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
El jue, 04-03-2004 a las 03:38, Jackie Reid escribió: And don't get me started on dls ;) this bit seems to have been swept under the carpet.. I'm really interested to hear what is wrong with dl's for navigation as, to my pedantic and not so up there with css sort of a mind, it actually seems like a pretty darn good idea to me. Whooops, my bad english has betrayed me, it seems :) I didn't mean there is anything wrong with dl's, i was just teasing about how we were talking about the complexities of nested lists for nav elements and no one had still suggested the somewhat subtler dl's, thus 'upping the semantic ante' Myself, i really like the idea of secondary nav as dd of the primary nav 'dt' term, although i've never really played with it yet. Sometimes i grow way too self-satisfied with my english skills. Sorry about the confusion and i hope to have been clearer now. -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tonico, hello list, Is it just fashionable to use uls for navigation? Which standard says that a navigation should be a list? Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Well, some say: a navigation semantically is a list, others say: it's not. (I also think, it's a list and semantic markup is a part of webstandards, not of fashion). Example for a navigation that is not a list: http://www.w3.org/ I guess they don't use lists for the top navigation because it is horizontal and they want to keep it simple. But IMHO the deciding advantage is: subnavigations, that are nested in li are read out (as nested) in some Screenreaders (f.e. Jaws, unfortunately not HPR). So in my opinion, in (semantic) theorie and (assistive) practice we should use lists. I agree with you in theory. I also had hard problems with horizontal menus including subnavigation and gave up. But as we have an example, that it works, it's only one time too learn it and the hard times are over :-) I've learned a lot in the past (still learning), but the hard times are not over until most user agents have better support for standards. Last night I've coded such a menu: http://www.webproducer.at/lab/nested-ul-tabs It works fine, except in IE/Mac. I have posted the issue to css-d but haven't received any reply so far. I need to support IE/Mac, so what would you recommend me to do? Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Tonico, I need to support IE/Mac, so what would you recommend me to do? Did you have a look at this one, posted by Manuel González Noriega? It seems to work in IE 5 Mac, for whatever reason: http://kalsey.com/tools/csstabs/index.php?section=2 -Hugh * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Hugh Todd wrote: Did you have a look at this one, posted by Manuel González Noriega? Yes, but I can't use it because it has 'display: inline' on lis and that would make it more difficult for me because I have rounded corners. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Manuel González Noriega wrote: El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 16:54, Tonico Strasser escribió: Version a) may look better from a semantic point of view, and version b) is probably better for textbrowsers, screenreaders etc? Version b) is also easier for styling with CSS IMO. I can see no problems with version a) at all. I want a horizontal graphical navigation like at amazon.com. I find it very hard for styling with CSS. front (never heard screenreaders et al have any problem with nested lists) neither for styling, Ok, version a has no problems with accessibility but what about version b? with well known references such 'Taming Lists' at ALA or Listtutorial at css.maxdesign.au (too lazy to check the URLs now :) I know them, but no one has a submenu. Maybe beacause it is too difficult? Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
El mié, 03-03-2004 a las 19:05, Tonico Strasser escribió: Thanks Manuel, I wonder if version b is less accessible or standards compliant than version a. It would be much easier for me to use version b. If it validates, it's not less standard compliant than anything. As for accessibilty, i would say that nested ul link together parent and children terms. Is it just fashionable to use uls for navigation? Which standard says that a navigation should be a list? There's no standards about semantic writing. It all comes down to general consensus, good practices and ultimately designer's judgement. For me, navigation bars are unordered lists because they *are lists* of terms. I think they could be ols also. And don't get me started on dls ;) Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? Call me a pervert but i get a kick from elegant html sources :D -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Manuel González Noriega wrote: Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? Call me a pervert but i get a kick from elegant html sources :D Ok, me too. Thanks to all for your replies. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Tonico Strasser wrote: Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? the only benefits are: you have the data in it's natural form and semantic markup is automatically perfectly accessible (the only problem would be a stupid (sorry) ua like jaws, but even that is easily solvable). the w3c defined functions for tags. a navigation is naturally a list. so it should be a list, even in the markup and not only visually. they just give you enough freedom to do what you think is better ;) regards, michael -- /gro.jiin//:ptth jiin * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Michael Zeltner wrote: Tonico Strasser wrote: Who benefits from more semantic /navigation/? Maybe a XSLT designer? the only benefits are: you have the data in it's natural form and semantic markup is automatically perfectly accessible (the only problem would be a stupid (sorry) ua like jaws, but even that is easily solvable). Please, can you tell me more about the problem with Jaws and how it can be fixed? Thanks. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Tonico Strasser wrote: Please, can you tell me more about the problem with Jaws and how it can be fixed? floats instead of inline elements for navigation. jaws uses ie, and ie renders it as inline element so jaws will read it as inline element. floated blocks (btw, can one float list elements?) will be read differently (afaik. i don't have jaws yet). lets hope new versions will support the new screenreader (just heard of it) media type. regards, michael -- /gro.jiin//:ptth jiin * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
And don't get me started on dls ;) this bit seems to have been swept under the carpet.. I'm really interested to hear what is wrong with dl's for navigation as, to my pedantic and not so up there with css sort of a mind, it actually seems like a pretty darn good idea to me. Jackie Reid Mock Orange Web Site Development 1st Floor 92 Victoria Street MACKAY Q 4740 Ph: 07 4953 4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Martin Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup And don't get me started on dls ;) Come on then... about the dls ;o) I was going to suggest them, since the inclusion of the dt as well as the dd has its' benefits. However, I know there are some downsides (but I am yet to come across a significant one). Kind regards Martin Chapman -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
