[Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-03 Thread SteveW 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> A Tibetan monk (I don't remember who) was incarcerated, facing a torturing 
> jailer. He practiced tonglen, giving away his good karma, in exchange for the 
> jailer's bad deeds. After a while, the latter relented and gave him better 
> treatment. Eventually, the monk was released and came to live with Dalai Lama 
> in India. He was lucky enough to be dealing with the second/third generations 
> of Chinese officers, who no long had to fight hard to gain control of the 
> country. When the situation changed to a Khmer Rouge jail in Cambodia, no 
> matter how much tonglen the prisoner did, he would not escape or lessen the 
> torture and end up in a mass grave. We are in a lucky position of sitting 
> quietly, discounting everything as illusion. Does that work to lessen 
> suffering such as hunger, death, cancer pain etc?
>  
> Anthony
> 
> Hi Anthony. Oh, I don't actually have any evidence that it works.
  I was just playing "devil's advocate" as we say here, meaning I
  was trying to come up with a hypothetical explanation of how it
  might work. My personal practice is very simple. I sit morning and
  night, I focus on "Amitabha" throughout the day, and I try to be 
  nice to people and practically help them when I can. If someone
  is hungry, rather than trying to give them my good karma, I would
  rather just give them a sandwich! However, I do try to keep an 
  open mind. That friend of mine that I mentioned, to whom I gave
  a bunch of Buddhist books, practices Vajrayana. His practice 
  includes much that I have no practical experience with, so I
  am just passing on 2nd-hand stuff. 
  Steve
> 
> 
> 






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[Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-03 Thread SteveW 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
>  SteveW, my apologies if I came across a bit too emphatically.  --ED
> 
  Hi ED. My goodness, your reply was not in the least offensive!
  I really don't know anything about Vajrayana, just relaying
  stuff heard from my Tibetan Buddhist friends. Vajrayana really
  doesn't interest me. Too complicated!
  Steve





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Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-03 Thread Anthony Wu 
ED,
 
You see below that in tonglen "one visualizes taking onto oneself the suffering 
of others on the in-breath, and on the out-breath giving happiness and success 
to all sentient beings". If you don't call it transfer of merit, I don't know 
how you describe it.
 
By the way, in one of your links, you have the famous controversial Chogyam 
Trungpa. But something is a bit missing there. It is his sexuality, in addition 
to alcoholism. Like they say, he took over a theravada site and turned it 
into a Tantric center. It reminds you of Buddhists converting them into 
Tantrism in the 12th century in India, then being wiped out by Muslims.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 3/2/11, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 12:09 PM


  





As I was taught a long, long time ago, and as confirmed by wikipedia 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen#cite_note-learn-7),
Toglen has nothing to do with transfer of merit. 
It is an exercise in the mind-training for a practitioner.
--ED
 




Tonglen

 

Buddha of Love
Tonglen  or tonglin is Tibetan for 'giving and taking' (or sending and 
receiving), and refers to a meditation practice found in Tibetan Buddhism.
 
Practice
In the practice, one visualizes taking onto oneself the suffering of others on 
the in-breath, and on the out-breath giving happiness and success to all 
sentient beings. As such it is a training in altruism.
The function of the practice is to:
o    reduce selfish attachment
o    increase a sense of renunciation
o    create positive karma by giving and helping
o   develop and expand loving-kindness and bodhicitta
The practice of Tonglen involves all of the Six Perfections; giving, ethics, 
patience, joyous effort, concentration and wisdom. These are the practices of a 
Bodhisattva.
H.H. The Dalai Lama, who is said to practise Tonglen every day, has said of the 
technique:

Whether this meditation really helps others or not, it gives me peace of mind. 
Then I can be more effective, and the benefit is immense.
His Holiness offers a translation of the Eight Verses in his book The Path To 
Tranquility: Daily Meditations.
 
History
This practice is summarized in seven points, which are attributed to the great 
Indian Buddhist teacher Atisha Dipankara Shrijnana, born in 982 CE. They were 
first written down by Kadampa master Langri Tangpa (1054–1123). The practice 
became more widely known when Geshe Chekawa Yeshe Dorje (1101–1175) summarized 
the points in his Seven Points of Training the Mind. This list of mind training 
(lojong) proverbs or 'slogans' compiled by Chekawa is often referred to as the 
Atisha Slogans.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony. This is another one of those questions of dispute among
Buddhists. From the Theravada view-point, it is certainly
impossible. Many Mahayanists would say that parinamara, or transfer
of merit, is simply a metaphor for letting go of self-interest.
However, it is taken quite seriously in Pureland. While seemingly
contradicting the law of cause and effect, parinamara does make
sense if, as I believe, reality is one seamlessly interwoven
Whole. That is why I said in an earlier post that our common-
sense notions of cause and effect may, in fact, be illusiory.
Steve


> Steve,
>
> Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by
enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's good
luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great bodhisatva's
practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only work on your own
karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others influence your karma. Of
course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. Is tonglen in conformity
with Buddhism?
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-03 Thread Anthony Wu 
Steve,
 
A Tibetan monk (I don't remember who) was incarcerated, facing a torturing 
jailer. He practiced tonglen, giving away his good karma, in exchange for the 
jailer's bad deeds. After a while, the latter relented and gave him better 
treatment. Eventually, the monk was released and came to live with Dalai Lama 
in India. He was lucky enough to be dealing with the second/third generations 
of Chinese officers, who no long had to fight hard to gain control of the 
country. When the situation changed to a Khmer Rouge jail in Cambodia, no 
matter how much tonglen the prisoner did, he would not escape or lessen the 
torture and end up in a mass grave. We are in a lucky position of sitting 
quietly, discounting everything as illusion. Does that work to lessen suffering 
such as hunger, death, cancer pain etc?
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 3/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 11:37 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
> 
> Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by 
> enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's 
> good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great 
> bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only 
> work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others 
> influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good 
> karma. Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism?
> 
> Anthony
> 
> Hi Anthony. This is another one of those questions of dispute among
Buddhists. From the Theravada view-point, it is certainly
impossible. Many Mahayanists would say that parinamara, or transfer
of merit, is simply a metaphor for letting go of self-interest.
However, it is taken quite seriously in Pureland. While seemingly
contradicting the law of cause and effect, parinamara does make
sense if, as I believe, reality is one seamlessly interwoven
Whole. That is why I said in an earlier post that our common-
sense notions of cause and effect may, in fact, be illusiory.
Steve

[Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-03 Thread ED 


SteveW, my apologies if I came across a bit too emphatically.  --ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
> Ah well, I stand corrected. Thank you, ED.
> Steve


> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED" seacrofter001@ wrote:
> >
> > As I was taught a long, long time ago, and as confirmed by wikipedia
> >  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen#cite_note-learn-7
 ,

> > Toglen has nothing to do with transfer of merit.
> >
> > It is an exercise in mind-training for a practitioner.
> >
> > --ED

[Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-02 Thread SteveW 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> As I was taught a long, long time ago, and as confirmed by wikipedia
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen#cite_note-learn-7
>  ),
> 
> Toglen has nothing to do with transfer of merit.
> 
> It is an exercise in the mind-training for a practitioner.
> 
> --ED

  Ah well, I stand corrected. Thank you, ED.
  Steve
> 
> 
> 
>
> 






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[Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-02 Thread ED 


As I was taught a long, long time ago, and as confirmed by wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen#cite_note-learn-7
 ),

Toglen has nothing to do with transfer of merit.

It is an exercise in the mind-training for a practitioner.

--ED




Tonglen  
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Buddha_der_Lie\
be.jpg/220px-Buddha_der_Liebe.jpg]  
[http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png] 
 Buddha of Love
Tonglen  or tonglin is Tibetan for 'giving and taking' (or sending and
receiving), and refers to a meditation   practice
found in Tibetan Buddhism  .
 Practice
In the practice, one visualizes taking onto oneself the suffering of
others on the in-breath, and on the out-breath giving happiness and
success to all sentient beings  . As
such it is a training in altruism.

The function of the practice is to:

oreduce selfish attachment

oincrease a sense of renunciation 

ocreate positive karma   by giving and helping

o   develop and expand loving-kindness and bodhicitta 

The practice of Tonglen involves all of the Six Perfections
 ; giving, ethics, patience, joyous effort,
concentration and wisdom. These are the practices of a Bodhisattva
 .

H.H. The Dalai Lama  , who is said to practise
Tonglen every day, has said of the technique:
Whether this meditation really helps others or not, it gives me peace of
mind. Then I can be more effective, and the benefit is immense.
His Holiness offers a translation of the Eight Verses in his book The
Path To Tranquility: Daily Meditations.
   History
This practice is summarized in seven points, which are attributed to the
great Indian Buddhist teacher Atisha Dipankara Shrijnana
 , born in 982 CE. They were first
written down by Kadampa   master Langri Tangpa
  (1054–1123). The practice became more widely
known when Geshe Chekawa Yeshe Dorje  
(1101–1175) summarized the points in his Seven Points of Training
the Mind. This list of mind training (lojong  ) proverbs
or 'slogans' compiled by Chekawa is often referred to as the Atisha
Slogans.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony. This is another one of those questions of dispute among
Buddhists. From the Theravada view-point, it is certainly
impossible. Many Mahayanists would say that parinamara, or transfer
of merit, is simply a metaphor for letting go of self-interest.
However, it is taken quite seriously in Pureland. While seemingly
contradicting the law of cause and effect, parinamara does make
sense if, as I believe, reality is one seamlessly interwoven
Whole. That is why I said in an earlier post that our common-
sense notions of cause and effect may, in fact, be illusiory.
Steve


> Steve,
>
> Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by
enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away
one's good
luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great
bodhisatva's
practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only work on
your own
karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others influence your
karma. Of
course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. Is tonglen in
conformity
with Buddhism?
>
> Anthony

[Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-02 Thread SteveW 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
> 
> Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by 
> enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's 
> good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great 
> bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only 
> work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others 
> influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good 
> karma. Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism?
> 
> Anthony
> 
> Hi Anthony. This is another one of those questions of dispute among
  Buddhists. From the Theravada view-point, it is certainly
  impossible. Many Mahayanists would say that parinamara, or transfer
  of merit, is simply a metaphor for letting go of self-interest.
  However, it is taken quite seriously in Pureland. While seemingly
  contradicting the law of cause and effect, parinamara does make
  sense if, as I believe, reality is one seamlessly interwoven
  Whole. That is why I said in an earlier post that our common-
  sense notions of cause and effect may, in fact, be illusiory.
  Steve







Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-02 Thread Kristy McClain 
Anthony,
 
Yes, I  understood that.  I was just pointing  to the idea that if we  "could" 
do an exchange, most would not  do so.  Its more on the lines of bittersweet 
humor.   As your post was to Steve, i didn't mean to interrupt.  But if you 
asked my view, I don't  think you can. This may be the one area of karma  I 
accept.  Trying to fix another's problem is enabling them. But there is a fine 
line distinction, I think.  I can help  a cardiac patient learn new behaviors  
to modify his/ her life, so that he can help him /herself. I can  counsel an 
addict parent, and  place the child out of harm's way.  But I cannot  do the 
work for either. So, I do believe in  helping others solve problems for 
individual and collective good-- but  I do not think its possible or wise to  
try to solve their problems for them.
 
Kristy   
 


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:25 PM


  








Kristy,
 
You say, "...most would take their own problems  back." My question is whether 
it is possible to take 'others' problem.
 
Anthony


--- On Thu, 3/2/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 9:16 AM


  






Hi Anthony,
 
I've heard  about this...  I've also heard that if everyone in the world sat in 
a circle, and placed their  problems in the center-- most would take their own 
problems  back.  Hope all is well with you. ~ k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:11 PM


  

Steve,

Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by 
enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's 
good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great 
bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only 
work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others 
influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. 
Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism?

Anthony
--- On Wed, 2/2/11, SteveW  wrote:

> From: SteveW 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, 2 February, 2011, 6:02 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
> Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Thank you, Steve. This is also my observation.
> 
> > 
> 
> > The word "practice", is translated from two
> Chinese words and they are 
> 
> > "trim/cultivate" and
> "execute/apply" combined. Chan needs to be
> walked 
> 
> > on both "legs", because they interact with
> each other.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In Buddhist sutra, the word "action" is
> often associated with 
> 
> > Bodhisattva, so to mean "Actions of
> Bodhisattva" or in Chinese 『菩薩 
> 
> > 行』. Seldom the word, "cultivate" is
> associated with Bodhisattva to be 
> 
> > 『菩薩修』。
> 
> > 
> 
> > In other words, to comprehend, to be awaken is still
> in the domain of 
> 
> > consciousness, or Human Realm of the Ten Buddhist
> Realms. To act on, so 
> 
> > to refine our awakening continuously is the only way
> to reach the 
> 
> > Bodhisattva Realm.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In our school, it further recommends us to undertake
> the karma of 
> 
> > others. Not as a concept, but in forms of both wisdom
> and life's 
> 
> > energy. This is not a concept. It is a real
> practice. Similar to 
> 
> > merit, it is not a concept, or a way of teaching. It
> can be experienced.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Everything written in the sutra can be experienced,
> once we get to that 
> 
> > level. It is quite fascinating.
> 
> > 
> 
> > :-)
> 
> > JM
> 
> > 
> 
> Thank you, JM. Yes, I agree. A friend of mine who
> practices
> 
> Tibetan Vajrayana taught me the method of Tonglen, or
> "Exchanging
> 
> Self For Other". It is quite challenging to my
> delusiory ego!
> 
> Steve
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-02 Thread Anthony Wu 
Kristy,
 
You say, "...most would take their own problems  back." My question is whether 
it is possible to take 'others' problem.
 
Anthony


--- On Thu, 3/2/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 9:16 AM


  








Hi Anthony,
 
I've heard  about this...  I've also heard that if everyone in the world sat in 
a circle, and placed their  problems in the center-- most would take their own 
problems  back.  Hope all is well with you. ~ k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:11 PM


  

Steve,

Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by 
enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's 
good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great 
bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only 
work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others 
influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. 
Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism?

Anthony
--- On Wed, 2/2/11, SteveW  wrote:

> From: SteveW 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, 2 February, 2011, 6:02 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
> Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Thank you, Steve. This is also my observation.
> 
> > 
> 
> > The word "practice", is translated from two
> Chinese words and they are 
> 
> > "trim/cultivate" and
> "execute/apply" combined. Chan needs to be
> walked 
> 
> > on both "legs", because they interact with
> each other.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In Buddhist sutra, the word "action" is
> often associated with 
> 
> > Bodhisattva, so to mean "Actions of
> Bodhisattva" or in Chinese 『菩薩 
> 
> > 行』. Seldom the word, "cultivate" is
> associated with Bodhisattva to be 
> 
> > 『菩薩修』。
> 
> > 
> 
> > In other words, to comprehend, to be awaken is still
> in the domain of 
> 
> > consciousness, or Human Realm of the Ten Buddhist
> Realms. To act on, so 
> 
> > to refine our awakening continuously is the only way
> to reach the 
> 
> > Bodhisattva Realm.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In our school, it further recommends us to undertake
> the karma of 
> 
> > others. Not as a concept, but in forms of both wisdom
> and life's 
> 
> > energy. This is not a concept. It is a real
> practice. Similar to 
> 
> > merit, it is not a concept, or a way of teaching. It
> can be experienced.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Everything written in the sutra can be experienced,
> once we get to that 
> 
> > level. It is quite fascinating.
> 
> > 
> 
> > :-)
> 
> > JM
> 
> > 
> 
> Thank you, JM. Yes, I agree. A friend of mine who
> practices
> 
> Tibetan Vajrayana taught me the method of Tonglen, or
> "Exchanging
> 
> Self For Other". It is quite challenging to my
> delusiory ego!
> 
> Steve
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-02 Thread Kristy McClain 
Hi Anthony,
 
I've heard  about this...  I've also heard that if everyone in the world sat in 
a circle, and placed their  problems in the center-- most would take their own 
problems  back.  Hope all is well with you. ~ k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:11 PM


  



Steve,

Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by 
enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's 
good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great 
bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only 
work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others 
influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. 
Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism?

Anthony
--- On Wed, 2/2/11, SteveW  wrote:

> From: SteveW 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, 2 February, 2011, 6:02 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
> Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Thank you, Steve. This is also my observation.
> 
> > 
> 
> > The word "practice", is translated from two
> Chinese words and they are 
> 
> > "trim/cultivate" and
> "execute/apply" combined. Chan needs to be
> walked 
> 
> > on both "legs", because they interact with
> each other.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In Buddhist sutra, the word "action" is
> often associated with 
> 
> > Bodhisattva, so to mean "Actions of
> Bodhisattva" or in Chinese 『菩薩 
> 
> > 行』. Seldom the word, "cultivate" is
> associated with Bodhisattva to be 
> 
> > 『菩薩修』。
> 
> > 
> 
> > In other words, to comprehend, to be awaken is still
> in the domain of 
> 
> > consciousness, or Human Realm of the Ten Buddhist
> Realms. To act on, so 
> 
> > to refine our awakening continuously is the only way
> to reach the 
> 
> > Bodhisattva Realm.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In our school, it further recommends us to undertake
> the karma of 
> 
> > others. Not as a concept, but in forms of both wisdom
> and life's 
> 
> > energy. This is not a concept. It is a real
> practice. Similar to 
> 
> > merit, it is not a concept, or a way of teaching. It
> can be experienced.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Everything written in the sutra can be experienced,
> once we get to that 
> 
> > level. It is quite fascinating.
> 
> > 
> 
> > :-)
> 
> > JM
> 
> > 
> 
> Thank you, JM. Yes, I agree. A friend of mine who
> practices
> 
> Tibetan Vajrayana taught me the method of Tonglen, or
> "Exchanging
> 
> Self For Other". It is quite challenging to my
> delusiory ego!
> 
> Steve
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-02 Thread Anthony Wu 
Steve,

Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by 
enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's 
good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great 
bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only 
work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others 
influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. 
Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism?

Anthony
--- On Wed, 2/2/11, SteveW  wrote:

> From: SteveW 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, 2 February, 2011, 6:02 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
>   
>   
>   
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
> Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Thank you, Steve.  This is also my observation.
> 
> > 
> 
> > The word "practice", is translated from two
> Chinese words and they are 
> 
> > "trim/cultivate" and
> "execute/apply" combined.   Chan needs to be
> walked 
> 
> > on both "legs", because they interact with
> each other.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In Buddhist sutra, the word "action" is
> often associated with 
> 
> > Bodhisattva, so to mean "Actions of
> Bodhisattva" or in Chinese 『菩薩 
> 
> > 行』.  Seldom the word, "cultivate" is
> associated with Bodhisattva to be 
> 
> > 『菩薩修』。
> 
> > 
> 
> > In other words, to comprehend, to be awaken is still
> in the domain of 
> 
> > consciousness, or Human Realm of the Ten Buddhist
> Realms.  To act on, so 
> 
> > to refine our awakening continuously is the only way
> to reach the 
> 
> > Bodhisattva Realm.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In our school, it further recommends us to undertake
> the karma of 
> 
> > others.  Not as a concept, but in forms of both wisdom
> and life's 
> 
> > energy.  This is not a concept.  It is a real
> practice.  Similar to 
> 
> > merit, it is not a concept, or a way of teaching.  It
> can be experienced.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Everything written in the sutra can be experienced,
> once we get to that 
> 
> > level.  It is quite fascinating.
> 
> > 
> 
> > :-)
> 
> > JM
> 
> > 
> 
>   Thank you, JM. Yes, I agree. A friend of mine who
> practices
> 
>   Tibetan Vajrayana taught me the method of Tonglen, or
> "Exchanging
> 
>   Self For Other". It is quite challenging to my
> delusiory ego!
> 
>   Steve
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






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[Zen] Re: Eightfold Path

2011-02-01 Thread SteveW 


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
 wrote:
>
> Thank you, Steve.  This is also my observation.
> 
> The word "practice", is translated from two Chinese words and they are 
> "trim/cultivate" and "execute/apply" combined.   Chan needs to be walked 
> on both "legs", because they interact with each other.
> 
> In Buddhist sutra, the word "action" is often associated with 
> Bodhisattva, so to mean "Actions of Bodhisattva" or in Chinese 『菩薩 
> 行』.  Seldom the word, "cultivate" is associated with Bodhisattva to be 
> 『菩薩修』。
> 
> In other words, to comprehend, to be awaken is still in the domain of 
> consciousness, or Human Realm of the Ten Buddhist Realms.  To act on, so 
> to refine our awakening continuously is the only way to reach the 
> Bodhisattva Realm.
> 
> In our school, it further recommends us to undertake the karma of 
> others.  Not as a concept, but in forms of both wisdom and life's 
> energy.  This is not a concept.  It is a real practice.  Similar to 
> merit, it is not a concept, or a way of teaching.  It can be experienced.
> 
> Everything written in the sutra can be experienced, once we get to that 
> level.  It is quite fascinating.
> 
> :-)
> JM
> 
  Thank you, JM. Yes, I agree. A friend of mine who practices
  Tibetan Vajrayana taught me the method of Tonglen, or "Exchanging
  Self For Other". It is quite challenging to my delusiory ego!
  Steve
>
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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<*> Your email settings:
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<*> To change settings online go to:
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