RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
A bunch of years ago - late 1980's iirc - a man with an expired temple recommend (he had been ex'd, I think) forced his way into the D.C. Temple with a gun and held a couple of temple workers hostage for a few hours. He eventually surrendered and the story made the news. The temple was closed for a day or two. If I remember right, they just quietly rededicated that part of the temple. I'm not sure, though...I was a teenager at the time and not much was said about how they handled it. Does anyone else remember? Heidi the fair [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 8/22/2003 6:27:03 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement This is what happened in Manti, as we were told by some Manti folks. Most of the time, entering the temple unworthily is considered significantly different from defiling the temple (a premeditated act which leaves physical evidence). Entering the temple unworthily defiles the person, not the temple. *jeep! ~~Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. Gus Segar via Popeye --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stacy Smith: I was wondering how it works, that's all. ___ I think the scripture says It shall be holy, or the Lord your God will not dwell therein. When a person who is not worthy enters and leaves the temple, and no one knows about it (that is, we mere mortals), I don't think anything is done. I have heard of two or three situations where someone broke into a temple and either did things they shouldn't or caused minor damage. In those cases, after any needed repairs, I understand that the temple president was authorized by the President of the Church to rededicate that area of the temple. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
I always try to think about my personal situation. I was merely curious about the environs and how it would be handled. Stacy. At 04:26 AM 08/22/2003 -0600, you wrote: Well I supose it depends on what you mean by defile in regard to the temple environs. That might suggest a rededication or something like that. I do not think that someone who is unworthy, simply by being there is likely to ruin the experience for all of the attendees. What one ought to do when attending the temple is worry abuot their own situation and not fear that someone else's attendance will do something negative to the temple. The answer is still NO and the previous reasons still apply. George ---Original Message--- From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08/21/03 08:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement Obviously I was referring to those who go in spite of the fact they know they aren't living up to even the letter. Are those people defiling the temple? Stacy. At 10:20 PM 08/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:38 PM, George Cobabe wrote: No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to attend in faith. George Well said, George. Look, folks, the Lord is our judge, and he is never as judgmental as we mere mortals. We are quick to judge, slow to forgive, stubborn, and rebellious. We also get angry too fast. We had better repent, and soon. I work in the Oakland Temple. I've worked there almost 13 years. I've easily entered that sacred edifice over 500 times. Every time when I reach for my wallet to get my recommend, I ask myself if I am really worthy to enter. Some weeks I am more comfortable with the idea than others. I keep going to the temple, however, because I know I'm really trying. I'm trying to control my anger, to obey, to yield to the will of the Lord, to forgive quickly, and to let the Lord judge. I keep the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, and am trying to keep the spirit of them as well. Perfect? I am far from it. I am planning to get there someday, although I'm not looking forward to the process. Adversity is tough. So, what level of wickedness does it take to not be worthy to enter the temple? It's spelled out clearly in the temple recommend questions. If you are keeping the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, go to the temple. When you have occasional minor lapses, repent and go to the temple. If you have a major lapse (such as failure to tithe or keep the Word of Wisdom, law of chastity violations, etc.), stop going to the temple. Go to your bishop instead, and fix the problem. In all cases, major or minor, allow the Lord to forgive you, and please, forgive yourself. After that, go back to the temple. Harold Stuart / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden,Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 08/19/2003 -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Witnessing Excommunications by Churches
Hi. Has anyone ever witnessed an actual excommunication of someone else by this or any other church? It seems to me that most churches refuse to do it. Why this bothers me I'm not sure, because I know that other churches don't have the authority to really matter but somehow it does. I think it reflects the moral character of the times. Are they generally public or private affairs? By public I suppose I mean church-attended, of course. Stacy. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Witnessing Excommunications by Churches
Stacy, in a past calling I had to attend church disciplinary councils and was present for a disfellowship (not excommunication) procedure. (To make up for it, I was lucky enough to attend several church disciplinary councils wherein the person was re-communicated I guess you'd call it. Their temple blessings were restored to them pending an upcoming baptism, and I was invited by those members to their re-baptisms.) I was told the disfellowship is very much like the excommunication, save for the fact it was on a ward level instead of a stake level. The repentance procedure was, I assume, a tad easier than it would have been for someone excommunicated. It's nothing like I expected. First of all, we were taught that a disciplinary procedure such as disfellowship or excommunication was not just the problem of the person, it was the problem of the entire ward or stake. Yet the person deserved and required complete confidentiality; no one who wasn't immediately involved (including victims and members of the disciplinary council) was to ever learn about this from anyone but the member him/herself. (For this instance, I will agree with our enemies that there are times when we LDS do keep secrets.) Every means possible was to be given to help the member return to full fellowship; it was always assumed that any punishment or trial for their sin(s) would be handled by the Holy Ghost. (And believe me -- we saw some mighty big lessons being handed out by the Spirit.) What we mortal agents were to do was love that person, protect their privacy, help those who were injured to recover, and to be available for counsel or other assistance as the person was receiving their lectures from the Spirit. If you've never been lectured by the Spirit, consider yourself very lucky and relatively free of sin. I've seen other churches, mainly Protestant ones, make a huge deal with lots of publicity when they excommunicate a member. In the Church of Jesus Christ, the ONLY time I've seen a church discipline made public is when the person themselves made it public. You'll get Church statements, when asked about criminals, that the criminals went through Church discipline but that civil punishment was the responsibility of civil authorities. If anyone's heard of anything more than that, please correct me. (Now someone will find a quote from Brigham Young which says something like I personally ex'd him then beat him with a deck of Pokemon cards.) *jeep! ~~Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. Gus Segar via Popeye --- Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. Has anyone ever witnessed an actual excommunication of someone else by this or any other church? It seems to me that most churches refuse to do it. Why this bothers me I'm not sure, because I know that other churches don't have the authority to really matter but somehow it does. I think it reflects the moral character of the times. Are they generally public or private affairs? By public I suppose I mean church-attended, of course. Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] West Nile virus
Steven Montgomery wrote: --- Hey! I was born and raised in the Uintah Basin. All kinds of relatives on both sides of my family in, around, and through such locales as Vernal, Roosevelt, Altamont, Tridell, Jensen, Maeser, etc. So, you've probably bumped into some of my relatives out there. Say hello to them from me--will you grin? --- Steven, I mostly just bump into trees at work. I am working for the Forest Service this summer, counting all the trees on the mountains of Ashley National Forest. I have driven through most of these towns on the way up to the forest. At night I'm sleeping in a trailer in an RV park in Vernal. One of the survey team members I was working with is from Tridell. Turns out that her family, the Brinkerhoffs, are also relatives of my brother-in-law. It was interesting to make the connection. My brother-in-law, Gene Cook, is also related to the McKee family in Tridell. I have heard lots of jokes about family lines that frequently intertwine in this area. :-) --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Witnessing Excommunications by Churches
Stacy Smith: Has anyone ever witnessed an actual excommunication of someone else by this or any other church? ... Are they generally public or private affairs? ___ About 25 years worth of them in our Church, none in any other church. In ours, they are strictly confidential. If the bishop obtains permission to hold a disciplinary council, it is usually held in the bishop's office with the bishop, his two counselors, a clerk, and the member. He must have permission from the stake president to hold a council. He may disfellowship or excommunicate any member of his ward, except that he may not excommunicate a man who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood. If a stake president convenes a disciplinary council, it is usually held in the high council meeting room. The stake president, his counselors, the high council (12), and a clerk participate, along with the member. A stake president usually does not hold a council that a bishop can hold which, in practical terms, often means that a stake will hold a council for a man who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood and who has done something serious enough for which he may be excommunicated. Nowadays, the decision of a council is only announced to members if the person disciplined poses a threat to the Church, for example, because of apostasy. In that case, an announcement is made in priesthood and Relief Society meeting announcing that a member has been excommunicated for apostasy (if that is the reason) or for conduct contrary to the laws of the Church. No additional information is given. An announcement is very rare. Usually nothing is said at all. Usually disfellowshipment is sufficient discipline to help a member repent of most serious transgression. A member is only excommunicated when needed and usually due to serious and willful violation of covenants. Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Witnessing Excommunications by Churches
You imply there is a difference between disfellowshipment and excommunication. Is there any record of what was said when Oliver Cowdary was excommunicated, for instance? Stacy. At 08:42 PM 08/22/2003 -0500, you wrote: Stacy Smith: Has anyone ever witnessed an actual excommunication of someone else by this or any other church? ... Are they generally public or private affairs? ___ About 25 years worth of them in our Church, none in any other church. In ours, they are strictly confidential. If the bishop obtains permission to hold a disciplinary council, it is usually held in the bishop's office with the bishop, his two counselors, a clerk, and the member. He must have permission from the stake president to hold a council. He may disfellowship or excommunicate any member of his ward, except that he may not excommunicate a man who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood. If a stake president convenes a disciplinary council, it is usually held in the high council meeting room. The stake president, his counselors, the high council (12), and a clerk participate, along with the member. A stake president usually does not hold a council that a bishop can hold which, in practical terms, often means that a stake will hold a council for a man who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood and who has done something serious enough for which he may be excommunicated. Nowadays, the decision of a council is only announced to members if the person disciplined poses a threat to the Church, for example, because of apostasy. In that case, an announcement is made in priesthood and Relief Society meeting announcing that a member has been excommunicated for apostasy (if that is the reason) or for conduct contrary to the laws of the Church. No additional information is given. An announcement is very rare. Usually nothing is said at all. Usually disfellowshipment is sufficient discipline to help a member repent of most serious transgression. A member is only excommunicated when needed and usually due to serious and willful violation of covenants. Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 08/19/2003 -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Witnessing Excommunications by Churches
At 09:21 PM 8/22/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: You imply there is a difference between disfellowshipment and excommunication. There is indeed a difference. A member who is disfellowshipped remains a member, although there are a number of things s/he is not allowed to do which a member in good standing may do. A person who is excommunicated is no longer a member of the Church and must be re-baptized in order to become a member again. -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
