Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
At 12:31 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote: He did. And I couldn't supply one. It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. You mean it's NOT! (as she pulls out her son's copy of Hitchhikers Guide for ref.) val Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I thought the church should strongly against the issue on an evolutionary process. Stacy. At 06:36 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: Marc, Who in your opinion presents the best, book length, argument in favor of evolution? And who in your opinion best presents the best argument against evolution? I ask these questions so that I might systematically study both sides of the issue to see who has the better arguments using the criteria that are important to me. I ask you because you seem to be the resident expert on this topic. Incidentally, I am not asking for a book list, not even a short one. I want your evaluation, your carefully considered opinion on the best argument for each side. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCat=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwins God: a Scientists Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although it's a bit outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that before the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came out, the Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison, Bertrand F. The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276 is an explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm And Pres. Stephen L. Richards refers to the inspiration which guides all scientists, including Darwin, in a letter to college students that was published in The Improvement Era (predecessor to the Ensign). Again, I have this online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_12.htm And finally, if you can hang tight, I might have another resource. I've had the idea for an article accepted by a well-known LDS publication (not Dialogue or Sunstone), and a draft has been submitted. I can't reveal which publication yet
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Here's the latest statement, which is positive neutrality, which is to say, that it's not a matter for the Church to have an opinion on one way or the other (despite what some brethren have written; see my response to John for more information). This is the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on Evolution, written by William E. Evenson, dean of the college of physical and mathematical sciences at BYU. In an interview with David H. Bailey (an LDS scientist who is, of all things, the world's leading authority on pi, the constant), Dr. Evenson said he worked very closely with Pres. GBH, who was iirc 1st counsellor in the 1P at the time, on the exact wording. In Public Affairs, when we distributed the EoM to libraries we were told it was to replace other, earlier reference books and our stake president said this was a reference to Mormon Doctrine, by BRMcC. His opinion, fwiw, he was reading between the lines. EoM went through a special two-level correlation process, although even it has the usual disclaimer. Anyway, here's a link to the entry: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_22.htm Note especially the 2nd last paragraph, which sets out, as I read it, a separation between science and religion. They are not competing ideologies, although I'm fully aware that many people use scientism as a tool in ideological conflict. Stacy Smith wrote: I thought the church should strongly against the issue on an evolutionary process. Stacy. At 06:36 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: Marc, Who in your opinion presents the best, book length, argument in favor of evolution? And who in your opinion best presents the best argument against evolution? I ask these questions so that I might systematically study both sides of the issue to see who has the better arguments using the criteria that are important to me. I ask you because you seem to be the resident expert on this topic. Incidentally, I am not asking for a book list, not even a short one. I want your evaluation, your carefully considered opinion on the best argument for each side. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. John, you should know that many proponents and researchers of evolution disagree with Gould. They consider him a populizer of a small group's point of view. They don't consider him to be mainstream, particularly on his theory of punctuated equilibrium. But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. On the other hand, the international space station continues to grow and the Internet is so very useful. Some things may be interesting whereas other things are useful and actually work. (Just taking another fun little poke at Marc; it wasn't aimed at you, John). = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I'm compiling a long list of books to buy so that when I walk into an LDS bookstore I'm not just going um, um, um. Stacy. At 10:43 AM 11/08/2002 -0700, you wrote: Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCat=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwins God: a Scientists Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although it's a bit outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that before the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came out, the Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison, Bertrand F. The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276 is an explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm And Pres. Stephen L. Richards refers to the inspiration which guides all scientists, including Darwin, in a letter to college students that was published in The Improvement Era (predecessor to the Ensign). Again, I have this online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_12.htm And finally, if you can hang tight, I might have
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Mark Gregson wrote: I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. John, you should know that many proponents and researchers of evolution disagree with Gould. They consider him a populizer of a small group's point of view. They don't consider him to be mainstream, particularly on his theory of punctuated equilibrium. Actually, contrary to popular misconception he didn't originate the idea, he merely popularized it. It's now considered fairly mainstream, and part of the New Synthesis. But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. This is part of the problem. On the other hand, the international space station continues to grow and the Internet is so very useful. Some things may be interesting whereas other things are useful and actually work. (Just taking another fun little poke at Marc; it wasn't aimed at you, John). That's alright. Engineers have their place. Under the sink, with a wrench = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. This is part of the problem. The details of any study are almost always complex. The fundamental principles are almost always simple. Generally, I like to learn the fundamentals before getting bogged down in the details. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: And finally, if you can hang tight, I might have another resource. I've had the idea for an article accepted by a well-known LDS publication (not Dialogue or Sunstone), and a draft has been submitted. I can't reveal which publication yet because nothing is finalized yet, but I actually had in my mind, while writing this, several virtual personalities to whom I addressed the article. They include you and my younger son (who's at the opposite end -- he's a 3rd year astrophysics student at our counterpart to MIT and is agnostic, more or less). Even if it's not accepted, I'll post it on my website. I have an essay there now, called eppur si riconciliano (thanks again, Stephen, for the help with the title), but the essay isn't very well written, frankly. I think my new article expresses my thoughts much better. An excellent list, Marc. It sounds like I should read Gould's THE STRUCTURE OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY. And if it is over my head, I should learn the prerequisites. If you recall, I also asked you for the best book-length argument against evolution. Because you are an expert, I just naturally assume that you know both sides of the argument. And to become educate in the matter myself, I need to study the best available on both sides of the issue. It would not be good thinking to pit the best on one side against the merely mediocre on the other. In any case, you have already provided us with an admirable survey of the literature on one side of the discussion, and for that I thank you. I think my sig below fits this thread, don't you? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Mark Gregson favored us with: But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. On the other hand, the international space station continues to grow and the Internet is so very useful. Some things may be interesting whereas other things are useful and actually work. Which is exactly why I intend to read only one book on each side of the issue. I just need to decide which two books. It wouldn't make much sense for me to read the best on one side and the merely mediocre on the other. I'm not going to make this a gospel hobby. I am far more interested in the future of manned space flight and the future of the Internet. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
It is! How did you find out? -- Steven Montgomery At 12:31 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote: He did. And I couldn't supply one. It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Steven Montgomery wrote: I thought John asked for a single best source on the subject, both pro and con? grin -- Steven Montgomery At 10:43 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCa t=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwin's God: a Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although it's a bit outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that before the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came out, the Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison, Bertrand F. The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276 is an explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm And Pres. Stephen L. Richards
RE: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
It is difficult to find books on evolution that avoid dogmatic approaches. I suspect that most who disagree with the rank and file do so privately. In my experience any lack of enthusiasm for the currently favored doctrine of evolution is met with waves of contempt and derision. If you don't pledge allegience to the right stuff, you're obviously just stupid. For an alternative perspective, I have enjoyed Kenneth Miller's APPROACHING DARWIN'S GOD. Also Michael Behe's DARWIN'S BLACK BOX. Both of them at least admit that there are issues beyond the current politically-correct envelope of academic regimen. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Actually, contrary to popular misconception he didn't originate the idea, he merely popularized it. It's now considered fairly mainstream, and part of the New Synthesis. I knew he didn't come up with the initial idea when I wrote my previous post but I got lazy. However, I am correct in stating that Gould is not considered mainstream amongst evolutionists, and in particular, punctuated equilibrium is not widely accepted in evolutionist circles. This extract shows criticism of Gould's theories by other evolutionists: http://www.theexperiment.org/articles.php?news_id=1791 After once proclaiming that Dr. Gould had brought paleontology back to the high table of evolutionary theory, Dr. John Maynard Smith, an evolutionary biologist at University of Sussex in England, wrote that other evolutionary biologists tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with. Sometimes these criticisms descend into so-called Gould-bashing where the charges are as personal as intellectual. Punctuated equilibrium, for example, has been called evolution by jerks. This extract calls Gould a gadfly amongst evolutionists: http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/LIBRARY/JOHNSON/Brockman.html I don't want to emphasize either the explicit or implicit dissents from Darwinism, however, because the most revealing remark about Darwinism in The Third Culture comes from a Darwinist of unimpeachable authority, George Williams. Williams is much less visible to the public than Dawkins or Gould, but he is more authoritative in the profession than either. Along with John Maynard Smith and William Hamilton, he is at the summit of the inner circle of evolutionary biology, in a realm where Gould is regarded as a gadfly and Dawkins is something of a junior partner. Williams and Hamilton earned their preminent status by pioneering the gene-centered Darwinism that Dawkins popularized with such success in The Selfish Gene. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
By reading one book. No. Waidaminute. It was a trilogy. 4 books. Yeah, that's it Incidentally, I'm introducing a whole new generation to the wonders of Douglas Adams -- I've got a big, storybook edition of the trilogy to give my son for Christmas. Steven Montgomery wrote: It is! How did you find out? -- Steven Montgomery At 12:31 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote: He did. And I couldn't supply one. It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Steven Montgomery wrote: I thought John asked for a single best source on the subject, both pro and con? grin -- Steven Montgomery At 10:43 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCa t=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwin's God: a Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution,
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
John, I don't mean to over-complicate your task, but just by coincidence, someone posted the following statement by the AAAS (who put out Science, the US competitor of Nature), on Eyring-L just within the past hour. It's a statement against intelligent design: http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml I'm cc'ing Justin Hart on this, so if you want to get in touch with him for more resources on ID, I'm sure he'd be glad to help. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I'm cc'ing Justin Hart on this, so if you want to get in touch with him for more resources on ID, I'm sure he'd be glad to help. I'm going to do a little survey reading first, then maybe I'll have you put me in touch with him. I'm so bipolar many of my project don't get off the ground. I would hate to waste his time. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
You're straining at a camel here. And quoting out of context. I would encourage people to read the first link, which is a detailed obituary of Gould. It shows the opposite of what you contend: he challenged the mainstream, but his ideas are now part of the New Synthesis. Here's another quote from the same article: [The Structure of Evolutionary Theory] is a heavyweight work, wrote Dr. Mark Ridley, evolutionary biologist at University of Oxford in England. And despite sometimes almost pathological logorrhea at 1,433 pages, it is still a magnificent summary of a quarter-century of influential thinking and a major publishing event in evolutionary biology. Note that the critical remarks are dated. Williams is the guy who coined the term god gene and is indeed a senior, but dated, figure in evolution, and his criticism of Gould is also dated, and somewhat dismissive because I believe he's envious of Gould, and he also doesn't like Gould's idea of NOMA (neither does Dawkins, incidentally, nor E. O. Wilson, all of whom are evangelizing atheists whereas Gould insisted that the only intellectually honest philosophy was agnosticism). Dawkins has far surpassed him in reputation. The place to go for information on the politics of the science is the discussion groups on talkorigins, not just by doing random google searches :-/ Miller is also another enemy of Williams, incidentally. Dawkins, too. I've read 2 of Dawkins' books and have 2 more to read, and I like the way he explains the principles of evolution, but I don't agree with his philosophical approach. He wrote what I consider to be a really weaselly reader review of Miller's book on amazon.com, signing it, R. Dawkins, as if he were merely some anonymous reader. It was the equivalent of scientific graffiti, imo. That's one thing to keep in mind, too, and it's something that complicates science: the politics involved is intense, just as it is in any other human endeavour. That's one reason to keep in mind that it's not an alternative to religion (regardles of what Williams, Wilson and Dawkins say), but just a tool set for understanding how the physical world works. And it's always subject to change. Just like John's opinions ;-) I'll give you another example or two. Isaac Asimov (who was also an atheist, not merely an agnostic, incidentally -- I actually corresponded personally with him in the early 70s about creationism, but he was public about this stance, too) was well-known, of course, for being a SF writer and for being a popularizer of science. He wrote literally hundreds of books (even commentaries on Shakespeare* and the Bible, believe it or not), and had a Ph.D. in biochemistry, iirc. But he never practised biochemistry and was not taken seriously as an academic, any more than *I* might be taken seriously, despite what I might or might not know. There's a place for dilettantes as go-betweens (they make good science journalists, for one thing, and I'm sorry more science journalists aren't actually educated in science) but they're not academics, and that goes for Asimov, too. Gould and Sagan both suffered a bit from this, too, except that both actually *practised* science and were not mere dilettantes. Here in Canada, David Suzuki is somewhere in between. He used to practise genetics but I think he's been a full-time green activisit for several decades now. Our own David Schindler (no relation) at the U. of A. is a better example -- he's a practising ecologist and knows whereof he speaks. I'm sure you've heard him on the radio (Mark; no one else here gets Canadian radio, I wouldn't think, unless Bonnie's still around). *which my daughter has on permanent loan from me. I was just over there yesterday with Cathy, picking up our grand-daughter for the night, and noticed it in their bookcase. Incidentally, the closest we have to LDS scientists, who are believing active members, and know something about evolution, and have written on the topic, would be, besides the profs at BYU I've already mentioned, David H. Bailey, who has written a fair bit on science and the Gospel, Brian Rhees (a biology prof), Richley Crapo (an anthropologist at Utah State), Philip Low (soil scientist at Purdue), Bart Kowallis (geology prof at BYU), the late Henry Eyring (father of the current apostle, and brother in law of SWK, who was very diplomatic in public, but in correspondence with the commissioner of Church education, when Man: His Origin and Destiny came out, he tore it to shreds in very straightforward language; Eyring was at one point president of the National Academy of Science in the US), Wilford Gardner (another soil scientist, UC Berkeley), Raymond Ethington (who converted to the Gospel as a grad student and teaches palaeontology at U of Missouri and is editor of the journal Journal of Palaeontology) and one or two others. These come to mind, so are just a sprinkling of the ones I can think of offhand. I know
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Fair enough. I know what you mean about projects -- I'm rather like that myself, as it happens. But you'll find Justin a real gentleman and quite helpful. He and I have politely agreed to disagree, but we work together at FAIR in apologetics work (in fact, I got him involved after reading one of his articles in Meridian magazine). John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I'm cc'ing Justin Hart on this, so if you want to get in touch with him for more resources on ID, I'm sure he'd be glad to help. I'm going to do a little survey reading first, then maybe I'll have you put me in touch with him. I'm so bipolar many of my project don't get off the ground. I would hate to waste his time. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
