[Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
Paul Everitt wrote:
You're going to love the irony on this, but there's a proposal in the
fishbowl on this:
http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/FishbowlManageability
...and of course, nobody knows the proposal is there.
hehe, read Casey's response, it makes the same comment. I find that ironic ;-)
2. We could by a tool that does this kind of thing. Where would we get such a
beast from? how much would it cost/ who
would fit the bill?
...and what would be the transition costs?
Good point... but you get these with any of the three options...
Hmm, I don't really see Bugzilla and the Fishbowl overlapping. Perhaps
with the Collector, though. However, I don't think the real issues
involved are related to choice of tool.
I think this is the problem. There shouldn't be a seperate 'fishbowl' and
'collector'.
They're doing the same thing; helping Zope get better. Why split that effort?
Sure, there should be some differentiation between bug fixes and new
developments, but, take the User API changes; was that fixing a bug (badly
broken user folder interface) or a new development ('new' user folder api)?
I think the difference is small enough that is deserves to be a field on a form
rather than a totally separate process.
Think about it, both collector and fishbowl 'issues' need:
- discussion
- consenus
- documentation
- development
- notification of the appropriate people.
What differs between them?
It's been mentioning that ZC doesn't pay attention, so proposals go in
and nothing happens. Bugzilla won't fix that problem.
Now here I really gotta shout loud 'cos I've made this point so many times I'm
wondering how I can say it so it gets through...
(Paul, here, have some earplugs ;-)
Notification, which bugzilla offers, MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE!!
Email notification is good enough, if I want that to beep my cellphone, I just
send it to me genie.co.uk email address...
None of us have time to read irrelevent web pages, which, for any given person,
90% of the fishbowl probably will be. Furthermore, why should we need to read
anything more than what's changed (the last comment added, the status of the
issue changing, etc)
bugzilla appears to do all this quite well from an outsiders point of view. Of
course, it may be a complete pig, in which case we will need to produce
something. However, just to say it again, email notification of as little (but
not too little!) information is the key.
If you need me to prove this, let me knwo and I'll get out my thesis writing pen
;-)
I'll add that
the community doesn't always pay good enough attention.
The lack of appropriate notification mechanisms rather than any deliberate or
malicious reasons would be my guess for any lack of attention, both within ZC
and the community...
Sure, people
will say when will we have versioning or when will we have web
services. We go off, make a proposal, and email zope-dev. No feedback
-- I take that back, each has received one response, whether by wiki
comment, mailing list response, or private response.
Wonder if the authors new the comments had been posted? I wonder if the posters
had known the author had replied?
This isn't a good track record. Brian produced 35 pages worth of
almost-flawless docs on web services to go with his code. But no
comments. And he's doing this on his own time. So let's remember that
this is a two-way street.
Indeed. I read Brian's proposal when he first announced it. It wasn't quite
finished or relevant to me, so I thought I'll come back later. of course, next
day I'd completely forgotten about it (and when I did remembe about it, I
couldn't easily find it with resoting to mailing list archives and the like...)
and so never came back. Now, if I could have ticked a box saying email me when
such and such happens then I, or other people here at NIP who are dealing with
Web Services in a big way ,would have got involved as soon as appropriate...
IMO, Bugzilla won't fix these kinds of problems. I think the first step
is to refine what we have while finding better ways to work together.
Well, okay, don't use bugzilla. But dump wiki, it's not sutructured enough. You
want bite sized bits of information, ruthlessly and sem-automatically
categorized, with fine-grained control of the notification your receive.
Now, that would spark a community into action :-)
cheers,
Chris
PS: Loosing the dichotomy of collector and fishbowl would be another major
step... it's all project management anyway ;-)
___
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Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
+2 I like the idea of unifying the fishbowl and the collector. And I agree about notification. seb ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
Paul Everitt wrote: This isn't a good track record. Brian produced 35 pages worth of almost-flawless docs on web services to go with his code. But no comments. And he's doing this on his own time. So let's remember that this is a two-way street. snip * Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011130 16:47]: list archives and the like...) and so never came back. Now, if I could have ticked a box saying email me when such and such happens then I, or other people here at NIP who are dealing with Web Services in a big way ,would have got involved as soon as appropriate... I think there's another problem here: possibly the community isn't large enough yet. There's already been a discussion on zope-coders about how little those with commit priviledges are actually committing, and the main reason is simply that no-one has enough time. How many people are there who are really comfortable with Zope to the point where they would be able to contribute meaningfully to a discussion about, for example, Web Services? Of the active community, I would guess fewer than 40. Of these, perhaps half missed the announcement. Of the others, probably another half were in the middle of very hectic projects. Of the 10 remaining, perhaps they weren't interested, or were going to look tomorrow but forgot... What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I think there are very few such people. I would love to, but I simply can't. The best way of getting such people is to cast the community web wider, and draw more people in. The best way of doing this is make zope.org *really good*, I reckon. I for one will be pontificating on zope-web next week. seb ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
CW == Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: CW Now here I really gotta shout loud 'cos I've made this point CW so many times I'm wondering how I can say it so it gets CW through... (Paul, here, have some earplugs ;-) CW Notification, which bugzilla offers, MAKES ALL THE CW DIFFERENCE!! Email notification is good enough, if I want CW that to beep my cellphone, I just send it to me genie.co.uk CW email address... I should mention that Simon Michael's MailWiki tool is incredible for things like this. It mails changes in the Wiki (almost, but not resembling, a unified diff, with the PageChange'd title in the subject). It also allows for mail-in appending, which of course is potentially dangerous, but so is any WWW-based storage of mail. Intelligent use of mail filtering (which has led to my symbiotic relationship with emacs and gnus for nearly 6 years now) will reduce the burden. It's not perfect, but it's not bad. I REALLY, but REALLY like using this feature. And I've been using on a wiki that I use for brain dumps from email... It would need a bit more work (semi-validation of from, etc), but it is potentially useful in this context. I hate firing up a browser to go searching, but I'll do it if something catches my eye... CW Well, okay, don't use bugzilla. But dump wiki, it's not CW sutructured enough. You want bite sized bits of information, See above. But maybe it still wouldn't be structured enough. best, -tony -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
Since I get paid to do Zope and I feel extremely fortunate to be in that position, I will say that there are different types of community involvement that I divide my time across: 1) Activism (like this) 2) Help (Like on [EMAIL PROTECTED] or zopelabs or whatever) 3) Working on my own open source Zope products 4) Submitting/fixing bugs in the Zope core. Now, I consider positive contributions either to the zope core or zope.org to be in addition to the above. So that I would have 10 hours per week just to spend on that is highly unlikely, but sometimes possible if other things above don't take much time, or I don't prioritize them. I could potentially drop #2 altogether (its sporatic anyway), but it makes me feel good and I remember what it was like before I understood what was going on (as if I do now). That said I think maybe what we need are some community liasons that devote the majority of their time for right now building an infrastructure for the community and helping others contribute in some way. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I might be willing to do that. However, I think my contributions in other ways would need to take a back seat, so I'd need to think about it, or be convinced. 8^) /---\ Casey Duncan, Sr. Web Developer National Legal Aid and Defender Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] \---/ On Friday 30 November 2001 01:14 pm, Paul Everitt allegedly wrote: I agree that we have to lower the bar. What Seb and I were discussing is a commitment from a small group of people to help accomplish lowering the bar. Once it's lowered, then hopefully the rate and impact of casual contributions will greatly increase. --Paul Andrew Kuchling wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +, seb bacon wrote: What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I think there are very few such people. I would love to, but I simply I'd think the number of such people is zero, except for people who use Zope in their work and can justify time spent developing on Zope itself as being work-related. It can't be assumed that people have much time to spend on a free software project; instead you have to lower the bar, and make it easier for hit-and-run contributors. If it takes days or worse, weeks and months, to get a contribution accepted, people just won't bother. Re: bug tracking. If Bugzilla is too much of a bear to deal with, there are simpler alternatives available, such as Roundup, Jitterbug, the SF bug tracker, and our unreleased SPLAT!. --amk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
I am hardly qualified to participate in zope-dev issues, but feel compelled to comment on the tools thread. I find it amusing with the wealth of IT experience involved that the group doesnt just take existing Zope code and polish off an uber-Product to handle everything. Somebody with project management experience needs to step up to the admin role to make it easier on those that want to just develop and improve the core. ZC typically tries to fill this role. Can the community step-up to manage some processes? Now for the fishfood. Email is the best for Notification, but a GUI can better organize task related threads for proposals and grow-Zope-10x projects. Combine the best features of: *_Wiki -- (great for full proposals, collaborative editing, the WikiForNow management, and WikiMail) *_Squishdot -- (great for the BB feel, sound-off/venting discussions indirectly related to projects, category organization, emailing the original Poster of replies, option to moderate) *_Talkback -- (great for controlling contextual commenting localized to paragraphs, as opposed to Wiki's free-love groping) * and CMF (great for CMF) * _SourceForge -- (dont flinch, many Zope Products are moving to SourceForge) I simplified and forgot some requirements, but I dont think you will have complaints if a great collaborative product is released as a result from addressing the fishbowl issue. The above products are simple enough to dissect and merge in short order. Then use this well polished out-of-the-box Zope product to get PR to help Zope's reputation compete with the likes of PHP-Nuke, UBB, and other OS-Products. Better products, not just a better Zope, will achieve 10x. Out-of-the-box products that dont require much thought to install is the bait to grow the community. Success breeds success. Quality breeds quality. I am motivated by aggressive goals like 10x. This will only happen if leaders in the community buy-in and share that goal. Post the goal on top of dev.zope.org if you are serious. How about a system that segregated development of: ___Explorations___ (ideas and theories in search of a proposal) ___Proposals___ (approved, and committed to be built with time-lines and delegation for shared development, kicks out stalled proposals back down to explorations or archives) ___Projects___ (manages development with targeted release dates, CVS, kicks out a project if it languishes) Everyone should easily locate and access posts and comment where deemed appropriate for each task. And build in some self-cleaning workflow. If a proposal doesnt get comments or sits idle after a specified time, bring it back up again for one last gasp for breath before being relegated to an archive. Ask the community what they think in the form of single-click surveys. Minimum brain-cells invested to get feedback. Not feedback just for development...Feedback to build community and support. RAH-RAH. Ask about priorities, what sucks, what's great? etc.. Great developers seldom make great project coordinators and v.v. Get someone with usability expertise to assist with GUI's, not necessarily designers. Have I described some things that exist now? so have a group hug and polish things off so they are used more effectively. Now for me to get back to the sidelines. ...head down...shuffle...shuffle Cheers, Trevor ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
Notification, which bugzilla offers, MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE!! Email notification is good enough, if I want that to beep my cellphone, I just send it to me genie.co.uk email address... Yet another comment: That translates to We finally need MAILMAN integration into Zope! I mean, Zope CAN send mails, but not that many (at least not efficiently). Or how does Bugzilla do the mail stuff? Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
I think there's another problem here: possibly the community isn't large enough yet. There's already been a discussion on zope-coders about how little those with commit priviledges are actually committing, and the main reason is simply that no-one has enough time. This might be a bit sarcastic, but I think the community IS large enough. We just have a lot of people who use Zope one-way, i.e. they take the platform and sell the add-on products without re-contributing stuff. To a certain degree this might be necessary, but I think ZC's own experience with ZEO shows that it doesn't make sense in the long run. United we are strong! Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
I mean, Zope CAN send mails, but not that many (at least not efficiently). Or how does Bugzilla do the mail stuff? One at a time via sendmail. Bugzilla has lots of very, very useful features. And does have to look like crap. We ended up using Bugzilla, it rocks. http://bugs.activestate.com Cheers. -- Andy McKay. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
