Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
> What percentage of your users will be logged in using a > password/sso/nltm/etc? 100% Ideally... even for read-only :) > > activities: > > 90% reading > > 10% modifying objects > Yeah, you'll have no problems with zodb based on those figures... Our plan is to have Zope talk to MSSQL, MySQL, etc. and serve primarily as a presentation layer, with the vast majority of heavy lifting happening on our company LAN via client-side apps. Is this a sensible project to undertake with Zope? Should we reconsider absolutely everything? Is this more of a situation where there are many roads to the same destination, each no better/worse than the other? Too many questions... not enough knowledge... ;-) Thank you again for all the great feedback! -- Dan Buch SmartEd Services ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
Dan Buch wrote: security: 100% authenticated, all the time (TLS/SSL?) TLS/SSL has little to do with authentication. What percentage of your users will be logged in using a password/sso/nltm/etc? activities: 90% reading 10% modifying objects Yeah, you'll have no problems with zodb based on those figures... It took me long enough to convince my bosses that Ubuntu, Zope, Python, , were safe alternatives to going 100% MS. If my company can purchase a Sun server, then we can purchase support from Canonical: http://www.ubuntu.com/sun Canonical will support anything if you give them money ;-) I wouldn't have thought Sun was that high up their list of caring... Please let me know if I'm totally off-base with my logic here ;-) The IT infrastructure consultant (the company pres.'s son) would prefer to buy everything through Dell, so if I'd be better off abandoning my obsession with Sun, well... that's what I'll have to do :) Stick with the dells... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
RE: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
We use Dell servers exclusively and a combination of CentOS (free) and Red Hat Enterprise (commerically supported). I suppose it depends on whether you're really attached to Ubuntu. We've had a good experience with Red Hat's commercial offerings and support ourselves. I believe Dell & Red Hat play nice with each other on a certification level also. We haven't had any problems anyways. You should be able to find many options to support your Linux installations, regardless of the chosen hardware. This page suggests the Canonical support isn't bound to Sun platforms: http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid It just so happens Ubuntu is certified for Sun hardware, that's all. All in all, it's understandable, if using Sun hardware with Ubuntu appeases the powers that be, go ahead. Another option is Dell + Red Hat. There are other combinations I'm sure that could give you the same kind of "formal confidence". And they should all run Zope just fine too, of course! (Just to stay on topic ...) J.F. -Original Message- From: Dan Buch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 19, 2007 2:10 PM To: Chris Withers Cc: zope3-users@zope.org; Doyon, Jean-Francois Subject: Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements? > > Let's say that we take HA out of the equation > Well, okay, but I thought that was the point of this discussion? ;-) Perhaps it will be in a few years ... I have to get the thing working first and, as I'm sure it's obvious by now, I am an absolute noob. > > and that our supposed > > infrastructure already has storage and web covered. > How so? Are you storing all your data in a relational database? Is > someone else running a caching web proxy in front of you? What we're trying to build is a Zope3 app that will help us track and document various workflows throughout the company. The plan is to have most of the data stored in *other* systems (MSSQL, MySQL, PostgreSQL... with significantly less (administrative stuff mostly) kept in the ZODB. There will already be an Apache server in place on another machine through which all Zope3 traffic will flow... (is that the right answer?) H.A. and such wasn't really the road I was expecting to go down ... not until later on, at least. I'm sorry if my original inquiry seemed to indicate this. > > The app will be > > used by *maybe* 50 concurrent users. > What kind of usage are they each up to? Just reading? Lots of modifying > objects? Are they authenticated? If so, how? Again, where you store your > data makes a difference here... I'll try to address this, but it's just speculation at this stage. If the app works and we decide to keep moving ahead with Zope3, the answer could be radically different in as little as 6 months. Here's my guess, for 50 concurrent users: security: 100% authenticated, all the time (TLS/SSL?) activities: 90% reading 10% modifying objects > > I'm already pretty confident in > > the answer, but would I do okay with something like "Config 1" shown > > here: (please forgive the HUGE URL) > Why the obsession with Sun? What's their brand getting you? It took me long enough to convince my bosses that Ubuntu, Zope, Python, , were safe alternatives to going 100% MS. If my company can purchase a Sun server, then we can purchase support from Canonical: http://www.ubuntu.com/sun Please let me know if I'm totally off-base with my logic here ;-) The IT infrastructure consultant (the company pres.'s son) would prefer to buy everything through Dell, so if I'd be better off abandoning my obsession with Sun, well... that's what I'll have to do :) Thanks again for all the great feedback! :D -- Dan Buch SmartEd Services ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
> > Let's say that we take HA out of the equation > Well, okay, but I thought that was the point of this discussion? ;-) Perhaps it will be in a few years ... I have to get the thing working first and, as I'm sure it's obvious by now, I am an absolute noob. > > and that our supposed > > infrastructure already has storage and web covered. > How so? Are you storing all your data in a relational database? Is > someone else running a caching web proxy in front of you? What we're trying to build is a Zope3 app that will help us track and document various workflows throughout the company. The plan is to have most of the data stored in *other* systems (MSSQL, MySQL, PostgreSQL... with significantly less (administrative stuff mostly) kept in the ZODB. There will already be an Apache server in place on another machine through which all Zope3 traffic will flow... (is that the right answer?) H.A. and such wasn't really the road I was expecting to go down ... not until later on, at least. I'm sorry if my original inquiry seemed to indicate this. > > The app will be > > used by *maybe* 50 concurrent users. > What kind of usage are they each up to? Just reading? Lots of modifying > objects? Are they authenticated? If so, how? Again, where you store your > data makes a difference here... I'll try to address this, but it's just speculation at this stage. If the app works and we decide to keep moving ahead with Zope3, the answer could be radically different in as little as 6 months. Here's my guess, for 50 concurrent users: security: 100% authenticated, all the time (TLS/SSL?) activities: 90% reading 10% modifying objects > > I'm already pretty confident in > > the answer, but would I do okay with something like "Config 1" shown > > here: (please forgive the HUGE URL) > Why the obsession with Sun? What's their brand getting you? It took me long enough to convince my bosses that Ubuntu, Zope, Python, , were safe alternatives to going 100% MS. If my company can purchase a Sun server, then we can purchase support from Canonical: http://www.ubuntu.com/sun Please let me know if I'm totally off-base with my logic here ;-) The IT infrastructure consultant (the company pres.'s son) would prefer to buy everything through Dell, so if I'd be better off abandoning my obsession with Sun, well... that's what I'll have to do :) Thanks again for all the great feedback! :D -- Dan Buch SmartEd Services ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
Dan Buch wrote: Let's say that we take HA out of the equation Well, okay, but I thought that was the point of this discussion? ;-) and that our supposed infrastructure already has storage and web covered. How so? Are you storing all your data in a relational database? Is someone else running a caching web proxy in front of you? The app will be used by *maybe* 50 concurrent users. What kind of usage are they each up to? Just reading? Lots of modifying objects? Are they authenticated? If so, how? Again, where you store your data makes a difference here... I'm already pretty confident in the answer, but would I do okay with something like "Config 1" shown here: (please forgive the HUGE URL) Why the obsession with Sun? What's their brand getting you? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
Jonathan wrote: Thanks for the info! What OS are you running on the dual-core cpus? We generally run CentOS in our production clusters. There isn't really anything special about CentOS though, any good OS would be fine. Maybe even Windows. :) I hadn't heard anything about anyone running 2 instances of zope on a dual-core cpu and was wondering if it was better to go with 2 cpus on a single box, or run 2 instances of zope on a single dual-core cpu in a single box. I doubt it would make a measurable difference. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
- Original Message - From: "Benji York" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jonathan wrote: From: "Benji York" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Four instances on a four core box works quite nicely. :) Do you mean "four instances on a box with 4 cpus" or "4 instances on a box with 2 cpus, where each CPU has a dual core"? The latter, but it generally makes little difference. ie. has anyone tried running 2 instances of zope on a dual-core cpu? If so, how did it perform? I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for so here's the most useful one I can muster: very well. :) Thanks for the info! What OS are you running on the dual-core cpus? I hadn't heard anything about anyone running 2 instances of zope on a dual-core cpu and was wondering if it was better to go with 2 cpus on a single box, or run 2 instances of zope on a single dual-core cpu in a single box. It would be nice to set up both configurations and compare them side-by-side, but unfortunately hardware just for playing with is scarce around here ;-) Jonathan ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
Jonathan wrote: From: "Benji York" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Four instances on a four core box works quite nicely. :) Do you mean "four instances on a box with 4 cpus" or "4 instances on a box with 2 cpus, where each CPU has a dual core"? The latter, but it generally makes little difference. ie. has anyone tried running 2 instances of zope on a dual-core cpu? If so, how did it perform? I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for so here's the most useful one I can muster: very well. :) -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
I'm bound to show my naivete on this round ;-) Let's say that we take HA out of the equation and that our supposed infrastructure already has storage and web covered. The app will be used by *maybe* 50 concurrent users. I'm already pretty confident in the answer, but would I do okay with something like "Config 1" shown here: (please forgive the HUGE URL) http://shop.sun.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Sun_NorthAmerica-Sun_Store_US-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewStandardCatalog-ShowAllProducts;pgid=Ljhoa7SWrIFSR0Uo1qu2uEHihp2IWGSt?CategoryName=HID-1686398653&CategoryDomainName=Sun_NorthAmerica-Sun_Store_US-SunCatalog -- Dan Buch SmartEd Services ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
- Original Message - From: "Benji York" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Doyon, Jean-Francois" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements? Doyon, Jean-Francois wrote: - On the web boxes run Apache with mod_rewrite to get you to the Zope instance(s) running on the app layer machines Some people substitute Squid for Apache, or in certain circumstances, leave that layer out all together. I still bother to try and get single CPU machines, because of the whole Python GIL vs. Thread issue, though newer linuxes have CPU affinity. I don't quite understand that statement. You can certainly run an instance per CPU and modern OS schedulers are smart enough to make setting CPU affinity overkill. Four instances on a four core box works quite nicely. :) Do you mean "four instances on a box with 4 cpus" or "4 instances on a box with 2 cpus, where each CPU has a dual core"? ie. has anyone tried running 2 instances of zope on a dual-core cpu? If so, how did it perform? Jonathan ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
Doyon, Jean-Francois wrote: - On the web boxes run Apache with mod_rewrite to get you to the Zope instance(s) running on the app layer machines Some people substitute Squid for Apache, or in certain circumstances, leave that layer out all together. I still bother to try and get single CPU machines, because of the whole Python GIL vs. Thread issue, though newer linuxes have CPU affinity. I don't quite understand that statement. You can certainly run an instance per CPU and modern OS schedulers are smart enough to make setting CPU affinity overkill. Four instances on a four core box works quite nicely. :) -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
RE: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
(From my Zope 2 experience, though it should be relevant here). Building an HA architecture for Zope is pretty much like anything else ... There's very little that's Zope specific. Minimum: - 8 boxes: 2 web, 2 app, 2 storage, 2 load balancers - On the web boxes run Apache with mod_rewrite to get you to the Zope instance(s) running on the app layer machines - Use ZEO w/ ZRS on the storage side. There are ways without ZRS probably, look at the Disk Replication Block Device (DRBD) project. I still bother to try and get single CPU machines, because of the whole Python GIL vs. Thread issue, though newer linuxes have CPU affinity. How you setup the load-blanacing will depend on a whole lot of factors, notably what software we use, and is beyond this list (Besides I don't do that bit, our "infrastructure" guys do that for me). We've head great success with that setup (3 app servers however) ... Vastly improved perfromance and availability. J.F. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Buch Sent: February 16, 2007 4:43 PM To: zope3-users@zope.org Subject: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements? I'm at the very beginning of what will hopefully be a successful deployment of some Zope3 apps. The big question I'm getting now from the infrastructure-minded people is what sort of hardware requirements I'll need (?) Given that I'm a bit of an Ubuntu nut, I wanted to look into a Sun server. I know that I won't need much in the way of storage, the minimum CPU and memory will do... after that I get a little lost :) If our final setup (a couple years down the line) will have something like 4-5 components all running on Zope3, must be highly available, and gracefully handle minor failures, what should I spec in terms of hardware? /me awaits flames ... Thanks in advance for patience, etc. -- Dan Buch SmartEd Services ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
- Original Message - From: "Dan Buch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:42 PM Subject: [Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements? I'm at the very beginning of what will hopefully be a successful deployment of some Zope3 apps. The big question I'm getting now from the infrastructure-minded people is what sort of hardware requirements I'll need (?) Given that I'm a bit of an Ubuntu nut, I wanted to look into a Sun server. I know that I won't need much in the way of storage, the minimum CPU and memory will do... after that I get a little lost :) If our final setup (a couple years down the line) will have something like 4-5 components all running on Zope3, must be highly available, and gracefully handle minor failures, what should I spec in terms of hardware? Why don't you run some load tests to determine what a single server can handle with your application. Then ask the 'marketing/sales' guys for user projections (total users, simultaneous users). Then you will have a rough idea of what you need (rough being the operative word: you may need to look at load balancing, separate application and database servers, etc). Jonathan ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Infrastructure Requirements?
I'm at the very beginning of what will hopefully be a successful deployment of some Zope3 apps. The big question I'm getting now from the infrastructure-minded people is what sort of hardware requirements I'll need (?) Given that I'm a bit of an Ubuntu nut, I wanted to look into a Sun server. I know that I won't need much in the way of storage, the minimum CPU and memory will do... after that I get a little lost :) If our final setup (a couple years down the line) will have something like 4-5 components all running on Zope3, must be highly available, and gracefully handle minor failures, what should I spec in terms of hardware? /me awaits flames ... Thanks in advance for patience, etc. -- Dan Buch SmartEd Services ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
